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More eyes needed again

This is getting arcane and hard to follow. Perhaps necessarily. All I can really understand as a non-scientist is that Kirk is getting a hard time. Having a genuine researcher in the field present and editing under his own name is potentially helpful but it's not the normal state of affairs so we all need to be cautious. Please stick to the advice at the top of the page about being welcoming. The article needs more opinions, so I'm going to post a note again on the Fringe Theories Noticeboard. I'm also going to ask Kirk a question on his talk page for my own clarification. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I can see that for a non-scientist. The primary problem I am having is with basic explanatory comments I wrote to help the reader understand the criticisms I am listing being taken as some kind of original thought and thereefore needing refernces. They aren't available, because they are underlying concepts to the field of chemistry. That's why I keep referring to sourcing 2+2=4. I welcome more eyes, and I will go now to check my talk page. Kirk shanahan (talk) 17:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Which facts in particular were removed as unsourced?

Here is a sentence in the article which is very difficult for me to understand: "His response included a breakdown of the 10 experimental runs analyzed into 4 sets based on what seemed to be a clear time-dependent shift in the calibration constants. This time dependence suggests a chemical aging effect that can be reversed by appropriate in-cell processing, further emphasizing the non-nuclear nature proposed by Shanahan."

What is meant by "breakdown," "analyzed into," "time-dependent shift," "chemical aging," and, "appropriate in-cell processing," in that sentence? 69.228.210.225 (talk) 02:54, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I hope you have read the version of Sept. 17, 2008 before the large sections I had added to the Criticisms section were deleted. After the deletion, only disconnected bits and pieces were left, the sentence you cite being one of them. I wouldn't have had a problem editing for clarity if what I had written made no sense to some, but the block deletions were a problem in my opinion. So, you can get some context from the Sept. 17 version. Kirk shanahan (talk) 11:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Those two sentences are the same in the version of September 17th, with no more explanation for the terms I asked about than there is now. What do those terms mean in those sentences? 69.228.230.16 (talk) 22:52, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I was hoping that seeing them in their original context would have clairfied. In my paper I analyzed 10 'runs'. A run was an experimental sequence where the applied voltage to the cell was ramped up for 0 to a maximum and then back down to 0 (or near it). If you plot the calibration constants as a function of time (or simply in sequence), it is clear that there is a pattern present. I identified what seemed to 'reset' the pattern and start it over, and this resulted in being able to group the 10 runs into 4 sets containing 3,3,1,and 3 runs each. The CF 'activity' systematically reduced in the series to level measured with 'dead' electrodes. This strongly suggests a chemical process altering the electrodes systematically in time, i.e. a chemical aging effect. Since it could be reversed, i.e. the activity restored, this adds to the impression that chemistry is at work, not nuclear physics. BTW 'analyzed into' should not be connected as you have done, it is 'runs analyzed' and 'into'. Kirk shanahan (talk) 11:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I altered the wording slightly. Any improvement? Kirk shanahan (talk) 16:48, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Not for me. Would you please completely rephrase the summary in terms of the hypothesis (chemical instead of nuclear, right?), the data, and the reason(s) the data support the hypothesis? IwRnHaA (talk) 06:36, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you. It is one of the sentences added by Shanahan. I have removed many sentences for lack of sources. Pcarbonn (talk) 07:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems you also deleted some sourced statements. For example, cited to Little and Yamada. You removed the citation to Little, so that can't have been an accident. Why? 69.228.210.225 (talk) 08:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

The Little source is a self-published page on his website. Little has not published any paper on cold fusion in reliable scientific journals. Therefore, he cannot be considered as a reliable source according to WP:SPS. We should be particularly cautious about such sources on a controversial topic like cold fusion. Yamada is not offered as a source for the paragraph in dispute, but rather, is criticized without any sources. After removing the unsourced criticism, there is no reason to cite Yamada anymore. Pcarbonn (talk) 09:59, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

In his continuing attempt to make sure no valid criticisms get out about cold fusion, Pcarbon wiped out another part of my additions. I have restored them. Some simple editorial changes that he made (such as dropping the (a) and (b)) wouldn't have been a problem, but he wiped out the entire fact that in his 2007 book, one of the leading cold fusion scientists refused to fully address the issues I raised in my publications. That is a crucial fact regarding the current state of affairs with the conventional explanation of the Fleischmann-Pons-Hawkins Effect. Kirk shanahan (talk) 11:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I certainly don't see it as something as important as you do. I fail to understand why it is important, since the arguments presented are the same as the ones in the previous paragraph, and no sources are presented that are not in the article already. Again, please beware of WP:UNDUE weight, and of writing about oneself. I'm open to comment from others, though. Pcarbonn (talk) 11:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

As this is the 'More eyes needed' section, I heartily request just that. Pcarbon is heavily biased and incapable of fairly editing any critical material. For those other eyes, there are two levels to all the criticisms that I have added (the ones present before were primarily from the 1989 DOE report, and, at least in part, were somewhat adequately addressed, and thus were of historical value only and certainly not very critical at all). The first level is the technical one, i.e., there is a simple and valid conventional explanation for apparent excess heat signals. The second level is that the researchers whose work is impacted by these criticisms routinely fail to incorporate any response to these criticisms, which is a very telling observation. To get a true picture of what is going on in the field today, one needs to know, for example, that Storms completely ignores the final rebuttal of his objections to the CCS problem, and further concludes in his book that it is not an issue! That is downright misrepresentation on his part, and that fact needs to be brought out in the Criticisms section. Note that he does the same thing with the Clarke results on He detection (not mentioned in the book), and Storms inadequately addresses the contamination issue (in that case there is no specific reference that can be quoted, as only basic chemistry is needed to understand the issue). Mainline science does not accept claims from scientists who ignore their critics. Kirk shanahan (talk) 14:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. I now understand your point. No need to make ad hominem attacks: I'm perfectly capable of accepting other's opinions. Pcarbonn (talk) 14:34, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand, the only source that you have provided for your opinion is Dr. Britz review of Storms book : "The book makes a good case for cold fusion. There are some weaknesses. Some of the figures are poorly done, and the text is often awkward. Some expert criticism of Storms' calorimetry (Shanahan, 2006) is not mentioned, . Nevertheless, these weaknesses are comparatively minor and do not detract from the major message of the book, the rather solid experimental evidence of some exotic process taking place, from a careful and self-critical researcher." (cited by New energy Times)

While Dr. Britz gives notability to the idea that Storms' book has weaknesses, it does not exactly support your sweeping statements on "the true picture of what's going on in the field today" or on "downright misrepresentations", on the contrary. Your generalisation is largely overblown and exagerated. While I could see it mentionned in an article on Storms, I don't believe it belongs in the cold fusion article, for WP:DUE weight reasons. Pcarbonn (talk) 15:30, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Following a brief description of his calorimeter, Storms (p. 41, chap. 3) remarks that a 1.2% agreement in Joule and electrolytic calibration “demonstrates the calibration errors proposed by Shanahan are absent.” Ref. is to my 2002 paper. On page 172 (chap. 7), Storms writes that “Shanahan has proposed that…” and “This error is shown by Storms to apply to neither flow nor Seebeck calorimetry,” Ref is to my 2002 paper. Ref. is to a Storms presentation at a conference in 2005. Ref is to the Storms 2006 comment. My 2006 rebuttal to that, published back-to-back with Storms' 2006 comment, is NOT mentioned at all in either chapter. According to the Index, these are the only times my work is mentioned. These are facts. That's what was written. That's what was sourced. Check the book yourself if you think I am lying. Therefore your cites of rules and regulations are irrelveant, and just serve to demonstrate the extent you will go to to try to suppress my additions.

Further, what you apparently didn't get from my comment above, is this treatment from Storms (and may I add Kowalski's Web page does the same thing) is notable for those seeking to determine what is going on in the field, and thus is a valid addition in and of itself in the Wiki article. Remember "Some EXPERT criticism of Storms' calorimetry (Shanahan, 2006) is not mentioned," and "Mainline science does not accept claims from scientists who ignore their critics." Kirk shanahan (talk) 16:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not disputing the fact that your recent expert work is not cited in Storms' book. I'm saying that we don't need to give it a full paragraph and thus undue weight, based on what Dr. Britz say. Pcarbonn (talk) 17:19, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

In the last paragraoph, there are 4 sentences. I agree the second is superfluous, I didn't write it as I recall. If the second sentance is removed, the third needs some slight modifications to make sense. But those three sentences constitute the explanation of the problem with the Storms 2007 book. Thus, they are necessary and not redundant, as the other paragraphs do not deal with that issue. I will make the changes. Kirk shanahan (talk) 18:54, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I have removed an offensive phrase from the article: "With funding from the US DOE". This phrase was added by Pcarbon in an attempt to discredit my work by associating it with the 'big, bad DOE'. In fact, funding sources are irrelevant to this discussion. The work was published in a mainline, peer-reviewed journal where funding sources do not impact that process. Unless all work referenced in the article is equally described, the application of such a phrase ONLY to me is biased. Kirk shanahan (talk) 16:20, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Please WP:Assume good faith. That the DOE is funding your work is relevant when some say that DOE is not financing work on cold fusion at all. It's also interesting to note that DOE held the 2004 panel AFTER you have published your work with their financing. Pcarbonn (talk) 17:19, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think it comes as a surprise to just about everyone that you have such a low opinion of the U.S. Department of Energy. Most people would take pride in having their work funded by the DOE, whereas you apparently take offense. I don't think anybody could have anticipated that so I don't really think it was meant to be offensive. It seems to me that, quite to the contrary, it was meant to give weight, notability, and credit to your research. But to each his own, I suppose, and I see no harm in removing it. But in the future try to WP:Assume good faith. Kevin Baas 17:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I began this exercise assuming good faith, but I was proven wrong. I can't assume that anymore.

I work at the Savannah River National Laboratory, which is a 'goco' (government owner, contractor operated), thus anything I do that gets published via work gets stamped with the 'DOE-funded' label, and since CF involves Pd, and I am a Pd-H chemist, I can't do it from home by the terms of my employment agreement. However, most of my managers can't understand why I want to worry about CF because "everyone knows it's bad science". I have taken as much flak over this as any other CFer. So don't assume DOE 'supports' me in anything but an indirect manner, just like the way NRL 'supports' CF research in its ballpark.

With regards to the 2004 review, when I found out about it, it was just about to happen (within a week or two). I contacted our rep. in the Office that was running the review and sent him/her my paper and additional comments, and was promised it would be passed on to 'the right people'. I personally know two of the reviewers, one of whom referenced my work in the written comments, and the other being one of the oral presentation panel, and neither ever saw a word of my work. I am not down on DOE, I am down on the review. It was inadequate if it was intended to get a full picture. I doubt we'd be having this debate if they had looked at my work and let me present the counterview. Fourtunately, they did specify publically what was considered, so we all know my work wasn't. Also note the discussion on my user page. I actually got involved with CF in about 1995, with my first publication submission in 2000.

Kevin, you haven't followed the CF field. They routinely harrange DOE for not supporting CF research. For an 'insider' like Pcarbon, the comment was an allusion to a 'conspiracy theory', because 'if DOE were fair, they'd be funding CF'. The idea is that I am a 'paid labcoat' that DOE trots out to 'confuse' the public about the reality of CF because DOE is really run by the oil companies. All hogwash of course, but it is a direct slam to my integrity. BTW, the reason I got into CF was that if what they say is true, I had the potential of suffering physical harm from an exploding sample, or releasing tritium to the environment due to same. When I asked my collegues why I shouldn't worry, no one could answer (because they all know CF is 'bad science'). Personal safety was my concern. Intellectual curiosity kept me going. Kirk shanahan (talk) 19:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Kirk, thanks for the clarification on the DOE funding. I now agree that it should not be stated in the article.

Again please assume good faith. I was the one to defend the view that our article should represent the 2004 DOE panel's conclusion. See my personal page for the history of this article. Why would I do that if I consider them as part of a conspiracy ? I fully agree that the review had shortcomings, but I believe it affects both sides. I would fully support another review by the DOE if I was asked, and I would hope it would be done properly this time. I'm not sure what would be the outcome though. I doubt that your speculation on CCS would carry the day, but my opinion is irrelevant, and WP is not a crystal ball. My reason is that you have analyzed only one experiment (which uses Pt rather than the usual Pd), you have offered only an hypothesis which still needs to be verified experimentally, and there are still reports of unexplained radiations, even if not at the level expected in view of the excess heat.

You call me an 'insider' : I don't have anything at stakes in this, other than my intellectual curiosity and the wish that researchers provide a better world for my kids, if there is any chance they can do it. My (small) contribution is to present the state of the issue as it is documented in reliable sources, and to prevent the spread of unsourced and unscientific opinions like 'everybody knows that CF is bad science'. Pcarbonn (talk) 19:48, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

You say: "Fourtunately, they did specify publically what was considered, so we all know my work wasn't." Please elaborate, because as far as I know the presentations made by the researchers during the one-day session was not made public. I have no indication that your work was not considered (the only indications that your work may have been considered are your statements above, and the leaked comment from reviewer #5, who may very well have mentionned it during the one-day session). Pcarbonn (talk) 20:18, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I find I have to correct myself. The information that was once posted when the report was issued included the full presentation and comments but has apparently been taken down. That it was there can be seen from the link to it found at the bottom of this page: http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/news/archive.cfm/pubDate=%7bd%20'2004-12-08'%7d#energy . Therefore, I seem to have no hard proof that this happened, which makes my claims simply my word. Take that as you see fit. Kirk shanahan (talk) 11:30, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I have just examined the 'leaked comment' and it is the documentation that I read at the time of the report. My memory may be faulty, but I thought I read this on the DOE Web Site where the report was posted. In any case, the context is now corrupted for this document, so it can't be used to support my previous claim anyway. (Reviewers 1-9 were the written-only reviews.) Kirk shanahan (talk) 11:45, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The document submitted by the CF researchers is already cited in the article (see Hagelstein). Is that what you mean to have seen ? I have never seen any copies of the 8 or 9 presentations made during the one-day session. I would be very interested in any info leading to them. If you have seen them on the net in the past, you may still find them on the wayback machine. Pcarbonn (talk) 12:16, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

For the record, what I recall reading in early 2005 was the Hagelstein paper, the DOE report, and the reviewer comments. That latter may or may not have been the 'leaked comment' mentioned above. I thought it was all on the DOE Web site at the time, but I may be wrong. In the end, all this means is that there is no visible proof my work was not considered during the review. I will stop claiming that now, and simply assert that that was the case. Take that comment FWIW to you. Kirk shanahan (talk) 16:08, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The statements a person makes reflects their character, and your statement "I began this exercise assuming good faith, but I was proven wrong. I can't assume that anymore." particularly stands out to me in this respect, and I shouldn't have to point out the irony that this statement was in response to two people proving your bad faith assumption wrong.

I'm sorry, but what are you reading? You completely misrepresent the situation. This particular discussion centers around the "With funding from the US DOE" phrase. I explained why this was a problem above and below. Pcarbon's first response was to cite rules at me again, which, again, weren't relevant. The particular problem I am having is that he doesn't stop there, he block deletes my additions, most of which are still in the 'deleted' state. You support him. I still contend this opposition is unwarranted. As a person who has 'published' a sarcastic note of the same ilk as those quoted below, Pcarbon is not unbiased or seriously trying to be neutral in my opinion. My comment that you quote was in response to P's attempt to stifle me once more by citing irrlevant rules, and I stand by it. Kirk shanahan (talk) 19:31, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

"Kevin, you haven't followed the CF field." - correct. "They routinely harrange DOE for not supporting CF research." - i'm an outsider but i can say with confidence that this is a misrepresentation. and it certainly doesn't follow that they think the DOE dubious or that them providing some funding somehow magically makes your results erroneous - that's flimsy even for an ad hominem argument. And to assume that someone - anyone - was trying to make such an egregiously flawed argument is downright offensive. Kevin Baas 16:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand, the truth usally clears things up a bit. Take a look at these Kevin. It only took me 15-20 min. to come up with this. I didn't check sci.physics.fusion, but I'm sure there's lots more there establishing a long tradition illustrated by the following.

Storms: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg01633.html

(blames DOE for failing to act in the text) http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/editorial.html

In Storms 2007 book, pps 17-18, he describes not participating in the 2004 reviwew because it was "a waste of my time". He may be right, but it illustrates his attitude.

On page 91 he is talking about He evidence and speaks of the DOE review thusly: "Or this information can be simply ignored, as it was by many members of the DoE panel..." Dovetails with his Vortex comments well doesn't it.

Mitchell Scwartz (editor Cold Fusion Times): http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html (look for: "DESPITE the US Constitution, the directives of the US Congress, the President, Secretary") (also: "because of the competition with oil and hot fusion, cold fusioneers have been attacked for 17 years by the some in the DoE, the US Patent Office, and some hot fusion physicists to a degree that is unknown in other competing energy and science fields.") http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html#PTO connections (look for "But this has so far been obstructed by many including some in the DOE and the US Patent Office,")

enough from Mitchell Schwartz. Lots more available I'm sure.

Rothwell (LENR-CANR Website manager and all around CF aficionado): http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg01660.html http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg03246.html http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg21601.html http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg21605.html http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg17808.html

Rothwell, but note the Storms and Miles connection: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg03309.html "The DOE Lies Again" @ http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LENRCANRthedoelies.pdf (also note the tomne of the discussion re; Miles proposal on the LENR-CANr website.)

enough from Rothwell. Tons more available I know...

Terry Blanton (Vortex): http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg07386.html

Brian Josephson (via Rothwell, Vortex) http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg02211.html

Kirk shanahan (talk) 18:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that is all fine. I grant you that these examples represent instances where researches have expressed that they feel there is too much pseudoskepticism and neglect of the field, and in some cases specifically named the DoE panel (they probably found their arguments specious). However,

• They are not denying empirical evidence - they are expressing the sentiment that the field is excessively neglected and plagued with pseudoskepticism.
• Were it that they do not generally fund CF research, that would not imply that the CF research they funded was suspect.
• Giving examples of CF research that the DoE funded, far from supporting the notion that the "DOE CF research", undermines it.

Perhaps I could be more clear if I tell you that I see a number of distinctions here that it seems to me you are failing to make in your argument. Kevin Baas 15:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Scientists who write about their work in Misplaced Pages

By some accounts, there are over 3,000 scientific papers on cold fusion, and probably as many authors. This spring, one of them, Dr. Shkedi joined our company. Last month, Dr. Shanahan paid us a visit. How many more will come ? How many of them will want their work to be "properly" presented in our article ?

Four paragraphs. Dr. Shanahan has insisted that it takes 4 paragraphs to present his speculation on cold fusion. No other paper has had so much coverage in our article. Not even the original article of Fleischmann and Pons. Four paragraphs for a paper that was ignored by the DOE panel, 2 years after its publication. Four paragraphs for a paper that only had a mention in passing in Storms book, 5 years later. Four paragraphs missing from a 300-page book, an oversight that Dr. Britz qualified as a minor weakness of the book. And now, according to Dr. Shanahan, our one-page article could not do without these paragraphs ? Who is to believe him ? Who is to accept his presumptuousness ? Who would accept such presumptuousness from any of the 3,000 authors ?

Dr. Shanahan has recently shown his righteous interest in the WP:Reliable policy. Isn't it time that he look at the WP:DUE policy ? Joining the 2 policies together, he will surely realize that a reliable source is needed to demonstrate the extreme notability of his four paragraphs. He has not provided any.

Many public figures have already been tempted to write about themselves on Misplaced Pages. Jim Wales himself contributed to his own article. He was quickly frowned upon. How long do we still need to accept authors writing about their work ? How many of the 3,000 will we accept ? How much time will we spend arguing with them, for so little ?

Scientists are welcome on Misplaced Pages, but they should refrain from writing about their work. Pcarbonn (talk) 14:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Pcarbonn, you mention that your company recently hired a cold fusion researcher. Does your company have any interest in promoting cold fusion? If there is even a small chance that your company would profit from increased attention to cold fusion, you should disclose it. Olorinish (talk) 16:04, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

How could I have ever said that ?? Here is what I said about what I had at stakes. Pcarbonn (talk) 16:35, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Allow me to rephrase my question. Pcarbonn wrote "By some accounts, there are over 3,000 scientific papers on cold fusion, and probably as many authors. This spring, one of them, Dr. Shkedi joined our company. Last month, Dr. Shanahan paid us a visit.", which implies that his company is using its employees working on company time to investigate cold fusion. Is that true, Pcarbonn? 209.253.120.214 (talk) 16:53, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

LOL. Sorry for the confusion. I meant : "Dr. Shkedi joined our company of wikipedia editors. Dr. Shanahan paid us a visit on wikipedia" But if they want to come to Belgium, they are welcome... Feel free to look at the talk archive for Dr. Shkedi's contributions. Or rather, in the mediation talk page, I believe. We had the same issue with him as with Dr. Shanahan. Pcarbonn (talk) 17:10, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Pierre, you were among those who welcomed Kirk when he arrived. It's difficult all round when editors are very close to the topics they edit on. But on the other hand you'll agree that my contribution is limited by the fact I have only basic scientific knowledge. We have to strike a balance. Let us continue to work in a reasonably civil manner and leave a note at the conflict of interest noticeboard to get some supportive - I stress supportive - intervention from someone who has experience of such situations. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:18, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I do welcome him. I have thanked him for his contributions, eg. on Clarke. I have reacted to his correct request to improve the references in the article. I have not reacted when he incorrectly called me a "fanatic". I have directed him to the relevant guidelines when needed. On his talk page, I have warned him against writing about oneself on wikipedia. Who has done as much as me towards him ? Pcarbonn (talk) 16:55, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

In response to these ludicrous charges against what I wrote, I'd like to start by noting that no one else seems to have the desire to cover the criticisms. It is difficult to write NON_SCIENCE articles about oneself without introducting undue bias, however in this case, there's no such problem. The original additions I made may have been too wordy (but I think not in reality), but the stripped down version of what we HAD in the article certainly wasn't. It covered the facts very succinctly, probably too much so. Those facts are:*KLS published a critical article in 2002,*there were three propositions made in that publication,*those propositions were...,*SMMF published a 2005 paper deriding the KLS 2002 publication,*KLS responded, challenging the relevance of the SMMF comments,*Storms published a 2006 paper,*KLS responded back to back to all points raised,*Storms' published a 2007 book that ignored the KLS 2006 rebuttal. You can't get much more abbreviated than that and still get the message across. Further, the writing was totally in the third person, and would have been identical if someone else had published the Shanahan papers. (Try substituting 'Pcarbon' in for 'Shanahan' in what was written and see if that isn't true.) The idea that I am somehow self-promoting is unsupportable. Pcarbon has followed the path of many of the cold fusioneers. They seek to detract from my publications (because it requires them to redo their experiments to show no CCS effect) by intially attacking the message, but when finding out there is no valid way to do that, then attack the person (and the tenacity with which he does this clearly makes athe label 'fanatic' applicable). I thought Wiki frowned on this. In any case, in order to get even a minimalist version of the counterclaims into the Wiki article I have had to spend inordinate amount of time in a battel that in the end does doe nothing but label me as a fanatic too, clearly illustrating the old adage about what happens when you fight with pigs. I am done. I have added the primary criticisms and they have been deleted by the fanatics. So be it, science isn't done via the pages of Misplaced Pages. Bye. Kirk shanahan (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 13:21, 13 October 2008 (UTC).

Cleaning up the References

Several references need to be fixed or deleted per current standards. I would prefer, as per my own suggestion, that the original writers of the verbage using these references fix it up, but I will do so if nothing is done by early next week., unless good reasons can be put forth in the interim as to why they should not be deleted.

These references are incomplete. (They need to have journal, volume, year, and page)

• Epstein (1994)
• Feder (2005)
• Gozzi (1998)
• Hutchinson (2006)
• Joyce (1990) = page missing, but easily identified as ‘22’. (I will add.)
• Oriani (1990)

Refs. to Proceedings (should be deleted): Key:

• APS – American Physical Society
• ICCF = Int’l Conference on Cold Fusion (1 to 14)
• ICCMS = Int’l Conf. on Condensed Matter Science (the new way to say ‘cold fusion’))
• SMMIB 2005 = 14th International Conference on Surface Modification of Materials by Ion Beams (published as a separate issue of Surf. And Coatings Tech.)
• TFT26 = Transaction of Fusion Technology 26(4T) is the Proc. of ICCF4 (Note: There was a separate publication of Proc of ICCF4 by EPRI that actually contains more papers than the TFT26.)

Refs:

• Bush (1994) – TFT26
• Chubb (2006) – This is an APS session on-line agenda. Does this meet Wiki standards?
• Fleishchmann (2003) - Proc of ICCF10
• Higashiyama (2003) – Proc of ICCF10
• Hubler (2007) – Proc of SMMIB 2005
• Iwamura (2004) – Proc of 11th ICCMS
• Miley (2003) – Proc. of ICCF10
• Mossier-Boss (2007) – Proc. of 2007 APS March Meeting
• Schwinger (1991) – Proc of Yoshio Nishina Centennial Symposium
• Storms(2000) – Proc. of ICCF8
• Yamada (2007) – Proc. of 8th Meet. of Japan CF Soc.

Note: I added Storms and Yamada, and I will delete immediately.

Non-peer-reviewed refs.

• Josephson (2004)
• Kowalski (2004)
• Lewenstein(1994)
• Prow (2001) – a public relations piece, not a newspaper or journal article
• Szpak (2002a and b) – internal SPAWAR reports

I think we have already agreed elsewhere that Prow was to be deleted.

Non-reliable journal refs.

• Mallove (1999) Infinite Energy Magazine
• Krivit (2005,2007) – New Enegy Times
• Mizuno (1996) J. of New Energy
• Storms(1990) – New Energy Times

Biberian(2007) is incorrectly labeled a 'review' in the first section. Later on, it is correctly labeled an article. It is also mentioned using 'cited by' in several references where a primary article is referenced. I feel this is unecessary as the primary ref. is adequate. If we were to put 'cited by' after every referenced article, we would have to do a lot more editing.

Oh and I forgot the ref 124, last in the article. It is to Biberian, but the section is on theory and he doesn't speak to that. I suppose someone got the refs mixed up. perhaps they were going for the Storms 2007 book? Kirk shanahan (talk) 16:42, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

In that paper, Biberian says: "At this point there is no satisfactory theory explaining the unique characteristics of condensed matter nuclear science". This supports the statement we make in the theory section, although our wording could be improved. Pcarbonn (talk) 21:45, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I’d also like to note for the record that the Biberian 2007 publication is in a journal devoted to nuclear reactors, and is thus completely out of place. Further the journal only started in 2005 and thus does not really have ‘mainline’ status as of yet (it may attain that in the future, if it survives). It is extremely unlikely that any competent peer review occurred in that setting, because people who could evaluate the claims made are not in that reviewer pool (this is a typical problem with a variety of CF publications). Is this considered a reliable source for Wiki? Kirk shanahan (talk) 16:21, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

While I agree with some of your suggestions, please note the following:

• the WP:RS guideline states that "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." This includes other sources than peer-reviewed journals. So, the fact that a source is not peer reviewed does not disqualify it necessarily.
• You state that some papers come from proceedings, while the reference clearly points to a journal. Please clarify your argument for removal.
• We use 'cited by' in accordance to Say where you got it, or to show their notability.

Pcarbonn (talk) 20:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Responding:

• 'with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy' - that's the rub of course. Per the Goodstein reference: "...because the Cold-Fusioners see themselves as a community under siege, there is little internal criticism." That's why, for example, the J. of New Energy is 'suspect'. A journal's reviewer pool usually derives from its author pool, and when JNE has no mainline papers in it, its pool is drawn from the fringe. The condition noted by Goodstein normally obtains in that situation. Ditto for Proceedings, even when published by mainline publications (such as the TFT26 issue), as review of Proceedings papers is almost always (but with exceptions) done by conference participants. That's why on the pecking order of publications, proceedings articles rank second or third. Everything I questioned above has the problem of 'reliable fact-checking and accuracy'. As was noted by Goodstein in 1994, the cold fusioneers were arlready noted for this problem, and instead of trying to overcome this, they continue to publish the bulk of their papers under problem conditions (peer reviewed or not.)
• You may do what I do, go to Google, look up the journal's Web site, and check the volume quoted. I made no mis-statements above.
• In this case, the original references are all that is needed, the 'cited by' is extraneous. Someone citing your work does not make any more or less true. And again, if you want to cite Biberian just because he cites the other authors, you should do so on all references, which will make the reference list untenable. I believe the 'cited by' is to be used when you can't obtain the prime refernce, such as 'Socrates said' (cited by Plato...). Kirk shanahan (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 12:59, 13 October 2008 (UTC).

Your questions about sourcing could usefully be taken to the reliable sources noticeboard. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Sub-Section Merge

Although this may seem trivial, I just wanted to formally point out a slight inconsistency. There are two headings with essentially the same name in the "Criticism" section. "Precision of Calorimetry" and "Accuracy of Calorimetry" appear to display an obvious redundancy. Respectfully, I will merge these unless otherwise contested; I don't expect a reply anytime soon.

Aaagmnr (talk) 22:40, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Precision and accuracy are in fact different concepts, but a heading "Precision and accuracy of calorimetry" might be OK. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:07, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Strange, I always thought they were synonymous terms. I have implemented your suggestion, and thanks for the clarification.

Aaagmnr (talk) 20:55, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Distinctly different, but don't feel bad, many scientisits haven't taken the time to clearly distinguish the two, including most of the cold fusioneers. When I made my additions to the criticism section, I left the old section 'precision...' in as I don't think I should be block deleting others' writings. However, the criticisms raised in that section were old, i.e. from the '89 DOE report, and more or less addressed in the years following, and as such really don't offer much in the way of insight for the situation today. (I even added a sentence stating that in my edited version from Sept. 17 I think, but that sentence was deleted.) Which is of course why Pcarbon sees fit to leave them there and relegate the real criticisms to a stub article which will likely be deleted in 6 mo. to a year, just like the last time. Anyway, in the old 'precision' section what was discussed were primarily 'accuracy' issues (which are also know as 'biases' or 'systematic errors'). Kirk shanahan (talk) 12:39, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Jed Rothwell on editing Misplaced Pages and Kirk Shanahan on electrolysis product recombination

Just for the sentimental (or the one curious in Misplaced Pages history): 293) Jed Rothwell comments on some accusations - a saved deleted version of this article. No opinions on Cold fusion intended. Said: Rursus (☻) 10:39, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe this is the item that I mentioned previously here, where Kowalski (although I guess it's really Rothwell) repeats the Storms tactic of ignoring my third publication, which rebutted all point raised by Storms against my conventional explanation. I note that McKubre is quoted as saying "What I objected to was you raising Shanahan's dead horse " (where 'you' is Dieter Britz). Funny, I am still riding my horse, and its far from dead... I further note that they are STILL equating my proposed cause for the FPHE with the Faradaic efficiency problem, which I clearly stated in my publications is not what I proposed. This does illustrate though that the CF community has designated my idea as dead without ever successfully explaining why. A clear sign of pathological science. The other funny thing is that they are dicussing the page I also worked on back in 2005 (I think it was '05), which has now completely disappeared from Misplaced Pages. Kirk shanahan (talk) 12:27, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Is this your third publication: Shanahan, K. (2005) "Comments on 'Thermal behavior of polarized Pd/D electrodes prepared by co-deposition,'" Thermochimica Acta, 428(1-2) p. 207? Is there a courtesy link so that people who are interested can read it? I found http://sti.srs.gov/fulltext/ms2004528/ms2004528.pdf -- thank you! IwRnHaA (talk) 06:51, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Please disregard that question, I see now that your other 2005 article must be your third publication. IwRnHaA (talk) 07:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I have summarized your argument thusly:

The excess heat observed in cold fusion cells may be from the chemical recombination of the products of electrolysis. Cold fusion skeptic Kirk Shanahan suggests that the effect measured by proponent and fellow chemist Edmund Storms can be explained by "a 17% recombination in the cell in the absence of the calibration constant shift ratio impact (which would nominally reduce the amount of recombination required to get the observed apparent excess heat)."

• Shanahan, Kirk (2005b), "Reply to 'Comment on papers by K. Shanahan that propose to explain anomalous heat generated by cold fusion', E. Storms, Thermochim. Acta (2005)", Thermochimica Acta, 441 (2): 210–214.

Please let me know whether or not you agree this is the main point of your argument. I corrected the spelling of "amount" in that quote. I also see that Szpak, Boss, and Fleishmann (2004) have claimed that the measurement of the volume yeilded from recombination of the evolved gasses does not support your suspicion. (Section 2.3 on page 102, citing S. Szpak, P.A. Mosier-Boss, R.D. Boss, J.J. Smith, Fusion Technol. 33 (1998) 38.) Is there any reason to doubt that? Does measurement of the volume yielded from recombination of the evolved gasses say anything about the possibility of the excess heat being from in-cell recombination? IwRnHaA (talk) 08:31, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I hate leaving the new guy to flounder about, so I will answer IwRnHaA's questions. Your summary is correct as far as it goes, but the problem is that the chemical recombination explanation of the FPHE is not experimentally proven yet. I had so much difficulty adding facts to the article that I was being very careful about what I wrote. The actual sequence is that I 'reverse engineered' some data that Storms used to 'prove' cold fusion, and found that a calibation constant shift could easily explain it. That is nothing but mathematics and has never been challenged. Next, I did some more math to show that a shift could occur from a heat redistribution in a cell/calorimeter. That also is just math and has never been challenged. Then, I _speculated_ that such a redistribution could arise due to H2+O2 recombination moving from the gas space of the cell to the electrode surface, which was implied by an Szpak, et al infrared video recording of an 'active' electrode. (All of this was published in my 2002 publication.) That hypothesis was attacked twice in the literature, once by Szpak and Fleischmann and coworkers, and once by Storms. I responded to both (Szpak in 2005, Storms in 2006), and in both pointed out that their complaints were ill-founded. The Szpak complaint focused on the idea that 'recombination' had been dealt with (see the Shkedi-Jones issue which used to be in the main article and now is in the stub), but that issue involves _electrochemical_ recombination, i.e. H2+O2 occurring via the power source that runs the electrolysis. It's a parasitic reaction which can impact your results if you use low current. However, the recombination I was talking about is the same as that which occurs at the recombination catalyst in closed F&P cell, i.e. _non-electrochemical recombination_. The CFers seem to have great difficulty understanding this. So, if I am correct in my speculation, then the CCS is likely caused by chemical recombination, but that is unproven speculation at this point in time. What is proven is that a CCS _can_ explain apparent excess heat signals in a F&P-type cell. Of course, excess heat represents the largest block of 'evidence' for nuclear cold fusion, so providing a conventional, non-nuclear explanation is quite a blow to those committed to the nuclear explanation. They respond by 'throwing the baby out with the bath water' by completely rejecting all my results. However, that is not good, as whether or not my speculative mechanism is proven true, the CCS mechanism can explain at least some of the excess heat results, and may explain all. One has to check their results against the CCS proposal to eliminate it, which is what has never been done to date.

My abbreviated summary would thus be: "It was shown that a calibration constant shift has the potential to explain apparent excess heat signals, and that such a shift can occur, at least in one way, by a redistribution of heat in a F&P cell. It was further speculated that such a redistribution would occur if recombination at the electrode became active, which is implied by available data, but is as of yet not experimentally proven." That would maintain the certainties as predominant and point out that experimentation is required to prove the speculation.

I've noticed you are using my 'papers' from the OSTI database. Be aware that these are the manuscript versions that were submitteed to journals for the peer review process. There usually are minor changes made due to that process. It would be best to get the real papers to be completely sure, but in general, the net changes I made were only cosmetic. No facts/conclusions were changed due to peer review. The manuscript version of my first paper can be found on the LENR-CANR website as well.

And finally, I won't be doing any more editing of the article, even though it badly needs it, as every attempt to do so is reverted by Pcarbon. Kirk shanahan (talk) 12:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest that we quote directly from the paper's conclusion as much as possible, rather than propose a summary that differs significantly from it. Also, we should say that the analysis was done on only one set of experiments: one cannot draw general conclusions on very different experiments.

That is incorrect. The derivation I present is generalizable to any calibration equation. This is an example of inductive reasoning. Furthermore, the summary is of the literature debate, not just one paper, and is valid. Kirk shanahan (talk) 16:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Let me correct myself. The abbreviated summary above, which was for IwRnHaA, does not address the literature situation. The CF article should, as the unwillingness of the CFers to deal with the issues raised is a criticism in itself. Kirk shanahan (talk) 19:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

We'll add that one when we'll have a verifiable source saying that "CFers are unwilling to deal with the issues raised". Pcarbonn (talk) 21:27, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

You say: "The derivation I present is generalizable to any calibration equation." Indeed, any model with enough parameters can be made to fit any particular experiment. Whether the found parameters corresponds to the physical reality, and can be used in other experiments, is not garanteed though. In the Storms experiment you analyzed, the excess heat was less than 5%, which is not surprising when Platinum is used instead of Palladium. Your approach can then find plausible parameters for CCS or recombination. Not so when excess heat is much higher. Hubler (2007) said: "Most of the research groups have reported occasionally seeing 50-200% excess heat for hours to days." You would then need to accept a Calibration Constant Shift so large that it would discredit any calorimetric study, including Joule's experiment demonstrating the law of conservation of energy. Same for the recombination rate : the recombination rate would be inconsistent with the Faradaic efficiency that is measured, and you would have to explain how control cells with regular water would bring results so radically different (a chemical effect like recombination is not known to be significantly sensitive to isotope varieties). Pcarbonn (talk) 06:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

What we have here is a highly suggestive post by Pcarbonn. It suggests he went back to his CF friends and got 'the straight scoop'. Otherwise, it suggests he can't read, and I don't quite believe that. What makes this post a 'giveaway'? The mention of Faradaic efficiency. We have never brought that concept up before, yet here it is. What is the problem with that? Well, it refers back to the _electrochemical_ recombination issue I discuss in my 2005 response to Szpak, Fleischmann, et al, and in the explanation to IwRnHaA posted right above here. Now, if you are doing _open_ cell work, you probably could detect the CCS problem by measuring Faradaic efficiency, but that won't work in a closed cell, as the total recombination therein is always 100% (hopefully, otherwise pressure builds up and the cell can rupture), so it is clear that by moving to this argument, the experimental details now become important to consider, which is well outside the scope of the Wiki article. In fact this whole discussion should be of spf, not here. But to repeat, the Faradaic efficiency issue typically brought up by CFers IS NOT RELEVANT. In OPEN cells, you could potentially detect the CCS that way, BUT NOBODY DOES THAT MEASUREMENT.

I would also like to point out, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE _SPECULATIVE_ MECHANISM NOW. The CCS, as I note above (hmmmm....maybe P actually can't read...) is unchallenged, as is the possibility that heat distribution changes can cause a CCS. I really don't care if my GUESS as to what caused the CCS turns out to be right. The CCS is a real possibility that must be accounted for by the CFer who wants his work accepted by mainstream science.

As a chemist who determines isotope effects on a routine basis, do you think I am really unaware of them?? There is at least one clear example of them in the thermoneutral voltage. It is different for H2O vs D2O. In my speculative mechanism, they would be present also in the adhesiveness of bubbles to the electrode (surface tension). As I noted in my publication, the viscosity of H2O is different from D2O. Besides affecting the amount of force applied to adhering bubbles, it would affect mass transport of bubbles in the cell. So much for no isotope effects...

Regarding the size of the CCS' effect: As the total heat capture efficiency of the calorimeter improves, the CCS will decrease, because (as per TA 428(2005)209) the efficiencies of the different regions in the calorimeter/cell have less difference. To put a limit percent-wise on the maximum possible excess heat signal obtainabbe by a CCS, I would need detailed instrument information, which is never supplied. So, I refuse to put any limit on the CCS effect on a percentage basis. It potentially could be limited by the available energy present vis the P=I*V calculation using the thermoneutral voltage and applied current, when combined with the magnification factor that arises from the Pex equation I derived and published. Personally, I don't find 50-200% immediately outlandish, because I have no basis to judge that. Also note: just because one error (the CCS) has been shown to be inactive in a given experiment (some day in the future we all hope), ALL the OTHER errors can still be present. Separately, I looked at the 25,000% claims of the Patterson Power Cell and the 20,000% claims of Mengoli, et al, and found OTHER reasons to doubt their veracity. EACH EXPERIMENT must be judged clear of error before it is used in promotoing a conclusion, a fact the CFers never conform to (because it limits their useable results severely). They prefer to uncritically lump it all together and say, "See, the sheer mass of positive results proves it!" Well, no, it doesn't.

I also find it amusing that you need the word of a complete neophyte to the field to justify CF. Normally, newbies aren't trusted that much because they don't have the experience base to make unbiased judgements. (That's why you 'go to the expert', not to 'the newbie'.) Hubler doesn't reference me, and I doubt he's even considered my work, which is an endemic problem to the CF field.

You wrote, quoting me: "You say: "The derivation I present is generalizable to any calibration equation." Indeed, any model with enough parameters can be made to fit any particular experiment. " You have completely misunderstood, again. A calibration equation can be any form you desire. Its job is to translate a signal into an understandable number through the medium of adjustable parameters, the calibration constants. If you measure 3 whifflestompers, and you know that translates to 6 watts by multiplying by the calibration constant 2, then multiplying by 2.5 will give you the wrong watts. That is true with any calibration equation anywhere. All the CCS problem says is that your system has changed between the time you determined the constants and the time you measured your unknown. There is nothing complex about this. All this does is illustrate a 'truism' from experimental science that: "You can't calibrate an unstable system."

You mentioned that I wrote "CFers are unwilling to deal with the issues raised" and somehow implied it should be in the Wiki article. I didn't imply that. With the summary that WAS present in the article, I was satified. I am content to let the astute reader go to the literature and end up drawing that conclusion him- or herself.

BTW, all of this discussion is outside of the WIki article scope and doesn't impact the summation of my work or the summation of the way it has been handled in the literature. It amazes me the level Pcarbonn will go to to prevent my work from being included in the article. That's why I give up, I don't have the time to fight a fanatic word-for-word, line-by line. Kirk shanahan (talk) 14:10, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

For the record, Faradaic efficiency is mentionned in the second paragraph of this thread, so I did not bring it up. It was also discussed at length with Shkedi some months ago.

Mea culpa. Still your regurgitating the very argument I showed was invalid is indicative. Kirk shanahan (talk) 15:33, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

It amazes me the level you will go to get your work published on wikipedia, instead of getting it accepted in scientific forums. So far, neither the skeptics nor the proponents seem to care for your work. Hopefully, now that you quit wikipedia again, you will have the time to promote it. When it's done, we'll give it the credit it deserves here. As for the CF proponents, they are doing just fine, so you don't need to give them advice on what they should do to get their work accepted. Pcarbonn (talk) 15:12, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Ummm...my work is _already_ published, the last nearly 2 years ago... And of course, since it is done, when are you going to give the credit I deserve, which you promise right above? Kirk shanahan (talk) 15:33, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

We already have given it credit. Our article has one paragraph on it. Pcarbonn (talk) 15:50, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

And if you had been paying attemtion, you would realize that my opinion of the paragraph is that it is incomplete and presents the work in such a fashion as to come to the wrong conclusion, which of course is what you favor. Kirk shanahan (talk) 16:28, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

You say: "I did some more math to show that a shift could occur from a heat redistribution in a cell/calorimeter". I don't recall reading this: which article are you refering too ? Pcarbonn (talk) 15:36, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

TA 428(2005)209 Kirk shanahan (talk) 16:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Would you please elaborate? Thank you. IwRnHaA (talk) 04:24, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

He is referring to Shanahan 2005, published in Thermochemica Acta and listed in our article. This article takes an hypothetical calorimeter and does some math on it to show how a change of place of the heat source can change the calorimeter constant. It does not use any experimental data to test whether this hypothesis applies to the calorimeter actually used by Storms. Pcarbonn (talk) 12:41, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

That is correct. It is one possible general way a CCS could occur, and I simply showed how it would work with some simple mathematics. It does however provide a testable hypothesis, namely that the heat distribution has changed. This led McKubre to conclude my theory is a 'dead horse' because he had recorded the temperature near the recombination catalyst in some studies done in the '93-'94 time frame that were reported in a '98 EPRI report (private document, not easily obtainable), and the recombination catalyst T sensor didn't show a change when the apparent excess heat signal was present. So it's possible my theoretical idea is the wrong one on this point , or it's possible that the T sensor was misplaced to deteect the shift I propose. To test it, more work has to be done, but that's not going to happen when McKubre thinks my work is a 'dead horse'. Also, even if my hypothesis is wrong, it doesn't negate the CCS as an explanation of the apparent excess heat, it just requires a different base explanation for the CCS itself. Kirk shanahan (talk) 11:37, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

We agree on one point: a lot more work needs to be done to understand the cold fusion phenomena. There is enough scientific evidence to show that something strange needs to be understood. Pcarbonn (talk) 15:28, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Does the volume yeilded from recombination of evolved output gases exclude in-cell recombination?

Kirk, would you please answer my earlier question, "Does measurement of the volume yielded from recombination of the evolved gasses say anything about the possibility of the excess heat being from in-cell recombination?" It seems to me that if the output gases are recombined, and the produced volume of water measured, that could serve, along with the amount of power applied, to measure the amount of gas produced.

This is only possible in 'open cells', where the electrolysis gases are allowed to escape the cell, supposedly without recombining. That means the electrolyte has to be periodically refreshed to make up for the loss. In the 'closed cell' the gases are trapped inside the cell an recombined at a catalyst so they don't build up pressure and explode or rupture the cell. In theory, if one could accuately and precisely measure the amount of escaping gases in an open cell, one could account for any in-cell recombination. I note in my 2005 comment on Szpack and Fleishmann, et el, that they make such an attempt but the error on that measurement is larger than the one needed to explain the excess heat signal, i.e., they weren't accurate and precise enough. I haven't found a case where they have done it properly, nor are we likely to see one, since they have decided that my ideas are a 'dead horse' and not worthy of discussion (a la Storms 2007 book). Kirk shanahan (talk) 11:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

In the Szpak et al paper at TA(410)102, they say, "The frequently cited D₂ + O₂ recombination reaction, as being responsible for excess enthalpy generation, is not supported by experiment (recombination of evolving gases yielded volumes that were better than 1.0% of those calculated assuming 100.0% Faradaic efficiency , or theoretical considerations )."

If 1.0% isn't good enough, what would be? IwRnHaA (talk) 15:42, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

(I tried to keep this short but it didn’t work, sorry.) I reply specifically to that comment in my rebuttal (2005), but today I can’t find my FT version of the paper. There is a version on the LENR-CANR Website, which I have perused, and for the moment I will assume it is identical to that published, as it is listed at the Website as being the FT vol 38 paper. In my rebuttal, sec 2.3, pg. 210, I state that the 1998 reference has no excess enthalpy numbers in it, nor any discussion of accuracy issues (i.e. it is a bogus reference). The Will ref is good, and is to the model Storms used when combining the Jones-Hansen data with his own to show electrochemical recomb. is not important at high currents. However, in 2006 I comment upon the plot Storms made for this, stating that it showed several data points where 15-25% (guessing at the numbers right now) unexpected recombination over the Will model line, the excess I called evidence for the nonelectrochemical recombination. In Szpak’s 1998 paper, I can only find the word recombination twice, both in reference to the recombination catalyst used in the cell, i.e., it is about a closed cell, where you can’t measure Faradic efficiency (FE). So it _really_ isn’t applicable.

In any case, in the 2004 paper they measure 7.7 cc of collected water vs the theoretical value of 7.2cc, a 6.5% excess water volume overage (maybe they are creating matter as well?? (no, try thinking about entrainment)), but claim that is within experimental error, but I point out that is greater than that needed in Storms case to produce an ~0.8W excess heat signal (maybe not quite if the .8W came from a 3 sigma shift). (Szpak, et al, report an ~0.3W excess with what looks like ~4.5V at .3 and .4A. P=IV so that is 1.35 and 1.8W, so that means the excess is 16.7 and 22%, right in the ballpark of where the Storms excesses were.) The point is I address these comments in my rebuttal, and point out lots of problems with them. With respect to the 1.0% comment, the question is now where it comes from. Is it even real?

However, more to the point, would a measurement of FE accurate to 1.0% suffice. The answer is that it depends on several things. First, what is the excess being claimed and how does it relate to the input power (see above, where a 1-2 sigma of 1-1.5% CCS would explain the observed excess heat). Second, when was the measurement made. CFers have a bad habit of measuring FE when no CF event is active, and then just saying that value applies when a CF event is working. That is clearly bogus, as the contention would be that the FE measured in the open cell _would_ show the CF event is recombination. But nobody ever does this well. Instead I get a 6.5% error (the wrong way!) on an .3W signal that is ~20% of the input, right in line with Storms’ data. If I could get a 1% accurate/precise FE I would probably be happy as that tends to be about as accurate as a chemical measurement gets. It would need to be made during a CF event, and it would have to be much less than expected by the size of the CF event. Also note, there needs to be some method refinement on the part of Szpak, et al, to be able to prove they can do this, assuming they were actually referring to some other work they did somewhere else. Otherwise, the 6.5% is probably a good estimate for 1 sigma on their FE measurements. All of this would have to be published of course, as no one is just going to take their assertions as fact. Kirk shanahan (talk) 21:03, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, I note that you removed the words "Cold fusion skeptic" from before your name.. Would you please elaborate your thoughts on that matter? IwRnHaA (talk) 09:55, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I took that out because it was a label that triggers a knee-jerk response in CFers. It goes like this: "skeptic"="pathological skeptic"->'illegitimate skepticism'->'safely ignored'. This comes about because the field has been highly polarized to the point where the participants are usually incapable of making graduated decisions, gravitating instead towards absolutes, i.e. "You're either for me or against me." (This is one reason why the label pseudoscience is applicable to the field.) I'd prefer not to label anyone if possible, even to the point that if I slipped up and somehow triggered a similar response in the CFers mind about the opposite phrase "True Believer", then that phrase ahould also be deleted. Kirk shanahan (talk) 11:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I see. I thought we had skeptics and proponents. IwRnHaA (talk) 15:42, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Shanahan's non-electrochemical recombination

Kirk, I want to thank you for trying to express your views. I know it can be exasperating here. Especially since trying to write in a tertiary source about one's own work is very hard even for the most prominent experts -- like trying to perform surgery on oneself, is one analogy I've heard. While that is clearly hyperbole, you don't have to look around Misplaced Pages too hard to find plenty of examples which support it. The fact remains that yours is the leading alternative hypothesis explaining cold fusion data, so we should be supportive of your attempts to contribute here, not dismissive. The encyclopedia will suffer if we don't support both sides of the argument as well and as fairly as possible. I'm not at all sure that people who are predisposed to reject your work are any better at summarizing it. I don't yet have enough subject matter understanding yet to say whether Pcarbonn's rewording of what I thought was my neutral summary of your recombination idea and its rejoinder was done fairly.

I'm also very concerned that statements about recombination are being convolved too closely with statements about the calibration constant shift. If the former can cause the latter, then they both deserve separate descriptions followed by an explanation of their relationship, along with the rebuttal from the other side, when it exists in the literature.

So, my question to you from the above section: What is meant by "non-electrochemical recombination"? Do you mean catalytic and/or some other form of spontaneous recombination? IwRnHaA (talk) 08:07, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your support. I'd like to repeat a couple of things that I've said in case you haven't caught up on the last 50 pages or so of this talk page.  ;-) I think the Wiki article is best served by having 3 major sections: a historical account of the field, which should be pretty neutral; a presentation of the claims of success, which people like me will have trouble with; and a presentation of the primary criticisms, which people like Pcarbonn will have trouble with. I proposed that those of us who edit either the claims or criticisms be required not to edit the other part, just to comment on the Talk page. Also, I proposed that the criticisms section mirror the claims section in that it should also have short sections on excess heat, He, heavy metal transmutation, and theory (and note that the excess heat part has a couple of different subsections). My intent was always to provide the balance to the article that would explain to the reader why the vast majority of scientists are justified in considering cold fusion unproven at this time. However, my attempts at this have been subverted by Pcarbonn's selective application of what he considers to be Wiki policies. So I agree with you comment above on that subject.

The convolution that you see occurring is a standard tactic of the cold fusioeers. Their response to criticism over the years has been to withdraw from the standard scientific process. Instead of listening to their critics, discussing their criticisms, and then folding in what survives that process into their theories on what's happening in an F&P cell, they find what they consider a flaw anywhere in the proposal, and trash the whole thing so they don't have to deal with any good parts of the criticism. In my papers, I clearly proposed 3 things. The first is the CCS, that's just mathematics at work, and that has never been challenged. Second was the fact that one way to get a CCS was to have the heat distribution in the cell/calorimeter change. That also is simple math and has never been challenged. Finally, I proposed a possible chemical/physical mechanism to get this heat distribution shift. The point in that was to give the CFers something to go and test. However, they settled on the third point, which was admittedly the most speculative, disagreed with it, and without considering my objections to their objections, declared _all_ of what I proposed invalid. Clearly this is not right, and I agree with your comment above about separating out the two. The fact is that wherever a CCS comes from, it has great potential to explain apparent excess heat. Really, after that it's up to the CFers to figure out how to improve their experiments to eliminate a CCS problem. But instead, they just want us to accept what they say, no questions asked. That is _also_ a criticism of their work and behavior, above and beyond the CCS itself.

Recombination is the reburning of the H2 with O2 to make water. It can occur by two mechanisms (at least). The first is electrochemical, where the reaction that results in net water formation is driven by the electrolysis power supply. In other words, electrons from the power supply run the reaction. The second way is simple 'burning', i.e. H2 gets together with O2 in the presence of an initiator (like a recombination catalyst, which is just a metal surface) and 'burns' to form water, just like carbon (logs) burn to form CO2. That requires no external power supply, etc. The recombination I propose to be the cause of the CCS in F&P cells is the second type. The only wrinkle that I introduced was that this has to occur at the electrode while it is still submerged in electrolyte, but therer is good evidence from Szpak, et al, that this is possible. So in the end, yes, this is catalytic, spontaneous recombination. The key point is that the electrochemical recombination has been studied and I agreed in my papers that it was not relevant in most CF studies, yet since I use the word 'recombination', the CFers say "Oh, we've taken care of that." to get to the point where they can do their block rejection (just like Pcarbonn and his block deletions). Kirk shanahan (talk) 12:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

For your information, the summary I wrote is largely based on Shanahan's (see 2nd paragraph here). Pcarbonn (talk) 08:56, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

You say: "The fact remains that yours is the leading alternative hypothesis explaining cold fusion data". I'm curious to know what makes you think that. Pcarbonn (talk) 09:19, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

The fact that it is the only relevant explanation out there that has not been shown to be unimportant maybe?? Kirk shanahan (talk) 12:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Kirk, thanks again for a detailed explanation. I want to direct your attention to my questions at the end of the previous section, please. IwRnHaA (talk) 04:25, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

ScienceApologist's edits and others' conflicts of interest

I undid these edits made by ScienceApologist. The statements he removed are well sourced from peer-reviewed scientific journals. Since cold fusion is not pseudoscience, it deserves fair representation. This is what the ArbComm unanimously said about significant alternative to scientific orthodoxies : "Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to pseudoscience." See also the recent comment of another editor that the DOE is notable, but not reliable because not peer-reviewed. Misplaced Pages policies is to base articles on peer-reviewed journals when possible. Pcarbonn (talk) 14:02, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Since cold fusion is pseudoscience, it does not deserve a fair representation. Arbcomm never said that cold fusion was not pseudoscience. It isn't a significant alternative to scientific orthodoxy because too few researchers work in cold fusion. There is no legitimate scientific disagreement since cold fusion is generally ignored. Peer-review is not the be-all and end all of reliability and in fact, we can only verify that it is the opinions of the authors subject to some oversight by editorial boards. Pcarbonn is shilling for his cold fusion interests in which he has money invested (he has invested in a cold fusion startup) and so should recuse himself from editing this article due to his conflict of interest. Therefore, I will be fighting him consistently here on out: here is the new case on the matter. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:06, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

How many researchers work on cold fusion? How many is too few? Since Kirk Shanahan and Pierre Carbonnelle are both editing, I think the conflict of interest tag should stay. Deleting sourced statements about the state of the peer-reviewed literature, however, is abominable. A declaration that one will "be fighting him consistently here on out" is contrary to the core policies of Misplaced Pages, and will be until Misplaced Pages:Hold grudges is approved. ScienceApologist has been involved with reverts back to a featured version that would never pass featured muster because it is so out of date, which led to the mediation of this article. I think all three parties should not edit this article: Science Apologist, Pcarbonn, and Kirk Shanahan, but they should be welcomed on this talk page as long as they can stay within the norms of acceptable behavior here. IwRnHaA (talk) 04:15, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I accept your proposal. I'm ready to refrain from editing the article if ScienceApologist and Shanahan refrains from doing it too. I believe the article stands on its merit, and I believe that the wikipedia community recognizes it.

If we think that the ArbComm should decide on Cold fusion status as pseudoscience, which I don't believe it should, I can accept that too. In the meantime, we should request ScienceApologist to show a source saying that cold fusion is pseudoscience. Failing to do that, we should remember that a majority of editors did not want cold fusion to be placed in the pseudoscience category. (see RfC)Pcarbonn (talk) 10:08, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Would anybody be willing to remove the COI tag, please. The COI request has been rejected. Pcarbonn (talk) 16:24, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I would like to see this edit stand until its section is archived before doing so. It seems to me that there has certainly been COI editing on one side if not both. However, I see the point that people generally do not have conflicts of interests with entire fields. I wonder if anyone will challenge that view. IwRnHaA (talk) 09:28, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll accept that for the moment. However, at the end, I'd like the record to be clear on whether I have POV-pushed anything, and whether the COI accusation stands. (I guess that expecting a thank you for my dedication at improving the article would be asking too much). Pcarbonn (talk) 10:05, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Courtesy link for Hubler paper

I want to provide this courtesy link for Hubler's 2007 review and the slides that accompany Hubler's corresponding lecture in the article text. Neither are registered with the Internet Archive yet, and so I am stating my intent to do so here in advance, because there is no way to tell whether the publisher has given redistribution permission under a nondisclosure agreement.

If anyone has questions about whether they are faithfully-reproduced copies, please raise them with the reasons so that if necessary, the documents can be authenticated by Hubler or a neutral third party. IwRnHaA (talk) 04:47, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Introduction inclusion of recent developments

Recently, IwRnHaA placed these sentences back in the introduction: "In 2007, a peer-reviewed literature review and update concluded that cold fusion has been demonstrated by experiments that result in excess heat production and nuclear reaction products such as helium-4. The reviews stated that although many explanations have been proposed, several of which do not use new physics, none is yet satisfactory. The author of the review has proposed a series of experiments to resolve the controversy."

These sentences are true, but they are not notable and reliable enough to be in the introduction. They are described in very minor journals compared to the main journals in the field (Physical Review, Science, and Nature). Placing them there implies to wikipedia readers a legitimacy that is not justified considering the current reputation of the field. If at all, this information should be placed in the "Recent Developments" section. Does anyone disagree? Olorinish (talk) 06:19, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

IwRnHaA recently posted the question: "Olorinish: if these are the views of a very small minority, why hasn't there been any peer-reviewed opposition since Shanahan's"? My response is that scientists very rarely write articles criticizing other scientists. There was some of that just after the 1989 announcements because cold fusion was such a special case, but very little since then. I have inserted a few comments along those lines in the article which show that the reputation of the field among professional scientists remains low. The absence of peer-reviewed criticism since 1989 DOES NOT mean that the reputation of the field has improved. Olorinish (talk) 06:27, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Those are two independent peer-reviewed reviews of the scientific literature on the subject, one by an author who had already published a review (thus it's an "update") and one who hadn't done any work on cold fusion before in his long career at the Naval Research Laboratory. They present both sides of the issue faithfully. There is no evidence of peer-reviewed opposition to cold fusion since Shanahan's work from 2006. The Hubler work explains why reproduction was so difficult early on: most people weren't able to achieve high deuterium loadings within paladium. Have you read the review or the update? Are you familiar with the current and former state of opposition in the field? IwRnHaA (talk) 06:32, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

"They present both sides of the issue faithfully." No, they don't. Check the reference lists. There is no mention of my criticism of apparent excess heat, or of Clarke's criticism of experimental caliber in He detection. Both are published, key criticisms. If both sides were presented fairly, these publications and their implications would be discussed. Further, the Biberian paper has 16 refs, and the Hubler one has 23. These are not 'reviews' in any real sense of the word. What Storms did in his 2007 book was an attempt at a review (with hundreds of refs), but he failed to do so in an unbiased fashion. Reviews usually have many references, not just the handful B and H give. Good reviews review the criticisms also.

"There is no evidence of peer-reviewed opposition to cold fusion since Shanahan's work from 2006." And there is no evidence the applicable criticisms have even been noted by the CFers. Criticisms don't have an expiration date on them. If they are valid, they stand forever. If not, CF researchers should show how they are invalid and we'll all move on.

"most people weren't able to achieve high deuterium loadings within paladium" Of course, Storms and Dash were able to get 'CF' with platinum, which does NOT hydride at any obtainable pressure, so the whole 'got to be greater than .9' claim is wrong and misleading. As Hubler is a 'newbie', his ignorance might be excuseable, but not so with the primary CF crowd. Kirk shanahan (talk) 13:25, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages can only do with what is available. If you have a better source for an overview of the field, please provide it so that we can include it in the lead. In the meantime, we'll use the ones we have found. Its title says that it is a review. The abstract explains that it cites selected data to summarize what has been published, hence the limited list of citations. Pcarbonn (talk) 15:03, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I have followed this topic closely for over a year, and have edited frequently as Olorinish, 209.253.120.204, 209.253.120.158, and 209.253.120.198. I have seen those reviews and have read about the deuterium loading issues. I object to including these articles being used as support of such a controversial claim in the introduction because they are published in very minor journals. One is in the "Journal of Science Coatings and Technology," which is not a normal venue for discussing nuclear reactions, while the other journal is only a few years old has nearly zero articles from american authors. On a more subjective note, I do not find them very convincing. We are here to discuss the wikipedia article on cold fusion, which means that when analyzing claims we should emphasize the plausibility that NUCLEAR reactions are present in the experiments. By that standard, these articles are not impressive enough for the introduction. Olorinish (talk) 07:07, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

You seem to say that you are objecting to them because of where they are published, not what they say. Do you believe that they present both sides of the controversy fairly? If not, why not? While the Journal of Science Coatings and Technology is not the usual venue for papers of this type, the emphasis in that journal on the analysis of electrolysis methods is clear. I disagree that we should try to emphasize the plausibility of nuclear reactions; that would not be neutral since whether there are or are not nuclear reactions is part of the controversy. We are here to write a tertiary source, and these reviews are the only reviews in the past several years. All of the criticism, the most recent of which has appeared in the peer-reviewed literature by Shanahan, has been directly addressed. For example, by measuring the volume of recombined evolved gases along with the other parameters of the cell to exclude the possibility of in-cell recombination. If detractors are claiming a violation of the conservation of mass, then they should say so. IwRnHaA (talk) 07:52, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

We are writing an encyclopedia, which is a place that people with little understanding of a topic go to get a quick summary on a topic. We have a responsibility to those readers to filter the information, giving proper weight to sources according to notability and reliability. Of course reasonable people can disagree on the details. I am saying that since the scientific establishment has an extremely low opinion of cold fusion research, that should be reflected in the decisions we make about sources. The notability and reliability of these sources is not zero, but compared to the success of conventional nuclear physics (as demonstrated by the fission electricity we used today), the journal choices and the data shown do not present a very convincing case that cold fusion is taking place.

To put it another way, the people who run your nuclear power plants and scan incoming ships for radioactive weapons almost all believe the cold fusion researchers are incompetent. To show they are wrong would require some very impressive results. Olorinish (talk) 08:13, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Since we are talking COI, why the hell do you want to ask those who run nuclear power plants if cold fusion is real ? You should ask that to scientists. Why did you forgot to mention that the second review is from 'International Journal of Nuclear Energy Science and Technology'? And why did you remove a recent quote from Naturwissenschaften? Surely this is a reputable journal. The many other reputable journals listed in the article do show that this is a valid, if controversial, subject of science, not pseudoscience, and should therefore be fairly presented. Let the reader then make his own decision: you don't have to decide for him. Pcarbonn (talk) 10:16, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Which quote from Naturwissenschaften was deleted? IwRnHaA (talk) 10:59, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

this one. Pcarbonn (talk) 12:31, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The opinion of scientists or industrialists in the field should have no bearing on the sources we select, other than that we select the opinions from the most reputable sources. Reputability is, among other things, reliability. The reliable source criteria are part of WP:V and WP:RS. They indicate that reports in the peer-reviewed scientific literature are preferable to, for example, government technical reports, such as the 2004 DOE report. The U.S. government hasn't done any more work, except at the Navy. They are very interested and positive on the subject and have proposed a series of experiments to address the controversy and, with luck, resolve it. And at least the Navy researchers submit their work to peer-reviewed journals. If the DOE did, the 2004 review hasn't been accepted or published yet as far as I know. IwRnHaA (talk) 10:50, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

"Let the reader then make his own decision: you don't have to decide for him." My point is that we, as wikipedia editors, have an obligation to decide for him what is in the introduction and elsewhere. An encyclopedia has value because it does not leave all the decisions for the reader; it emphasizes the most accurate and useful information on the topic. Keep in mind that I am not proposing that the Biberian, Hubler, or Mosier-Boss articles should be removed from the article, I am proposing that they be given appropriate weight. Olorinish (talk) 13:12, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Situating a government technical report in a position of greater authority within the article than the most recent peer-reviewed literature reviews (e.g., by deleting the last paragraph of the intro) isn't letting the reader decide. It is deciding for the reader that the reliable source policies don't apply. There are occasional exceptions to the reliable source criteria, but which of them, if any, are justified here? IwRnHaA (talk) 15:49, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The wikipedia page on reliable sources states: "Misplaced Pages articles should use reliable, third-party, published sources. Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. How reliable a source is depends on context. As a rule of thumb, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article and should be appropriate to the claims made..."

The 1989 and 2004 DOE conclusion documents satisfy all these conditions. This kind of document a special case because it is not published in a journal, but cold fusion is a very special case. Cold fusion was so important that the US government convened two expert panels to study the issues. Since the production of these documents involved many reviewers and government endorsement, and they satisfy the conditions above, they should be given more weight than a journal article. Olorinish (talk) 16:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

You seem to like the DOE report. The 2004 panel concluded that the field would benefit from the peer-review processes associated with submission to archival journals. Now that it does, why don't you want to follow their advice ? Also, it can be concluded from the ArbCom decision mentionned above that cold fusion deserves a fair representation : it does not support obscuring relevant, well-sourced content. Pcarbonn (talk) 16:43, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The DOE technical reports are perhaps more reliable than an ordinary government technical report, but they are a long way from being a reliable source on par with peer-reviewed literature, because

• there was no "reliable publication process" -- both reports were ad-hoc, and poorly convened. The DOE didn't even bother to invite Navy researchers who were actively publishing in the field at the time;
• there was no independent fact checking. The reports are nothing more than the conglomerated opinions of the committee members, with nothing like the coherence of an independently reviewed literature review;
• there was no scrutiny prior to publication. Comments on drafts were not included in the final reports, nor did they even influence them; and
• there was absolutely no support of the DOE panelists' judgement from specific sources, it was just a judgment call in each of their cases.

Moreover, Olorinish, who claims to support the DOE studies, removed the summary of the 2004 report's conclusions which was approved during mediation. IwRnHaA (talk) 09:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I stand by the summary I gave when deleting those sentences: "These sentences do not contribute signifcant information to the introduction. The benefits of further study, peer review, and article publication apply to all scientific topics." Why should they be included? If they should, why should they be in the introduction? Olorinish (talk) 11:28, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

You said it all. This sentence demonstrates that cold fusion is a scientific topic. Most uninformed people believe it is not. Our article says: "As of 2007, the scientific community did not acknowledge this field as a genuine scientific research theme." Hence, this well-sourced sentence from the 2004 DOE that you like is very relevant to the article, and informative to most reader. Pcarbonn (talk) 11:46, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Nobody believes cold fusion is not a science topic, so including these sentences is not necessary. What most scientists believe is that it is a topic researched by incompetent scientists. I think what Pcarbonn and IwRnHaA want the introduction to say is that some scientists are still working on cold fusion after 2004. Therefore, I have added a relevant sentence to the introduction.

Also, "not a genuine scientific research theme" is not standard english phrasing, so including it just adds confusion. Therefore I have removed it.

I ask that people let this version stand for a while, while we discuss it here on the talk page. Olorinish (talk) 19:56, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Why remove well-sourced statements from the "Recent development" section ?

Several well-sourced statements have been removed from the "Recent development" section (see the original here). Could they be reinserted ? Pcarbonn (talk) 16:33, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Here are some other statements that have been removed recently, although well sourced (except possibly for Mallove's.) Pcarbonn (talk) 18:50, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Cold Fusion is Neither

Cold fusion is not fusion. It's LENR. So many of you are arguing needlessly. http://newenergytimes.com/news/2008/NET30-jgk39gh12f.htm#looklike StevenBKrivit (talk) 05:57, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Steve. We'll report this when it is published in a peer reviewed journal. Pcarbonn (talk) 06:25, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

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