Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:40, 27 October 2008

Welcome!

Hello, Ken keisel, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  --Allan McInnes (talk) 19:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

f-14

I don't recognize you from before, but I hope moving the Iranian F-14s makes sense to you. The F-14 attracts too much interest and content to all fit on one large page, but if you insist, then let's put it on talk first. --matador300 22:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Aviation Newsletter delivery

The March 2007 issue of the Aviation WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 16:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Userpage Protected

Hi, I just protected your userpage due to anonymous vandalism. The protection will expire in 24 hours, but let me know if you want it off sooner. Cheers, alphachimp 15:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Your recent edits

Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Misplaced Pages pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. If you can't type the tilde character, you should click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 00:36, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

SIAI-Marchetti FN.333

Hi Ken. Your entry on this aircraft had to be deleted since it was practically a direct copy-and-paste from this website, creating a copyright problem for Misplaced Pages. As it happens, we already had an article on this aircraft anyway, at Nardi FN.333 Riviera that you might like to expand using your own words. You can also find a list of other aircraft articles we need here - maybe you can help out with some of these? Cheers --Rlandmann (talk) 09:19, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

The reason that your contribution keeps getting deleted is because you are directly copying text from another website. If you do it again, you will be blocked from contributing to Misplaced Pages.

The text that was used was altered sufficiantly to avoid any copyright issues, but keep in mind that the contents of the passage is considered a "statement of facts", and as such would fall under the "fair use" rules regarding copyright law (in other words, if the object of the text is to provide dates, locations, or proper names in reference to facts or events you can't limit or control its use). - Ken keisel (talk) 20:14, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

It was clearly and demonstrably not altered sufficiently - since I was immediately able to locate the website where the text had been lifted from. Additionally, fair use has nothing to do with whether somebody's intellectual property is a "statement of facts" or not. Fair use merely governs under what (limited) circumstances someone can make use of someone else's copyright without having to obtain a licence to do so. I think that what you're thinking of is that a fact itself cannot be subject to copyright; however, the expression of that fact or a compilation of facts certainly is. Anyway, it's academic now since in its most recent incarnation it does indeed seem to bear practically no resemblance to the webpage it was cribbed from. -- Rlandmann (talk) 21:57, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you've got the idea. While "facts" cannot be copyrighted, a sentence like "The Constitution was signed on July 4th, 1776." CAN be copyrighted if it's incorporated into a larger work. Fortunately such writing would fall under the "fair use" catagory, which would not bar anyone else from copying such a sentence. It simply depends to what extent the sentence is merely a "statement of facts". In the case of the article I drew from, almost the entire paragraph I used was a "statement of facts", though I did make some modifications to it anyway. In any case, I've altered it a bit more, and like the result much better now as well Ken keisel (talk) 20:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your reasoning that the article is best located under SIAI-Marchetti and have relocated it accordingly. Feel free to expand it in your own words, but there really isn't enough difference between the Nardi prototypes and the SIAI-Marchetti production version to justify separate articles - after all, SIAI-Marchetti didn't even allocate their version a new model number. --Rlandmann (talk) 13:48, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the name change! I'd looked for an article on the Riviera before creating the SIAI-Marchetti article and couldn't find one. I'm sure having it under the SIAI-Marchetti name will make it a bit easier for people to find. I've merged all the unique content from the old Nardi article with the SIAI-Marchetti article to give the most complete combination of both. The old Nardi article was small, little more than a stub really, so it didn't contribute that much to the updated article. It seemed to focus mostly on the three early pre-production aircraft, not the final production version. This article still needs a lot more information than what's there, and a photo would be nice, but at least it now has enought information to be useful. My information is all from the "International Aircraft Directory", which I've cited in the reference section. I'm not sure how to add individual citations, but if someone else does please feel free to do so. The information about the use of Riviera engines to upgrade Seabees is from first-hand communication with Seabee and Riviera owners. If there's a proper way to cite first-hand information please let me know and I'll correct it in the article. - Ken keisel (talk) 20:34, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The issue here has never been whether the old article should have been expanded or not - the expansion is a welcome change. The problem was with the copyright nature of the text being added, and the creation of a separate article for a barely different aircraft.

First-hand information is never acceptable on Misplaced Pages (see the Original Research policy) since it is not verifiable by others. I have therefore removed the comment about the engines being used to re-engine Seabees.

That's a bit of a shame, considering that only 26 were made, and it's very unlikely anyone will publish a book about it. In such a case, speaking with owners is about the only way to obtain addidional information on the aircraft's use and history - Ken keisel (talk) 20:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Nevertheless, thanks for your work on improving this article - it's way better than how it started out. --Rlandmann (talk) 21:57, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Not a problem. I just hope others can add a bit more, it's still a rather small article. I'd also love to see a photo added of this most unusual aircraft. - Ken keisel (talk) 20:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

June 2008

Please do not add content without citing reliable sources, as you did to USS Topeka (SSN-754). Before making potentially controversial edits, it is recommended that you discuss them first on the article's talk page. If you are familiar with Misplaced Pages:Citing sources please take this opportunity to add references to the article. Contact me if you need assistance adding references. Thank you. also on USS Albany (SSN-753) -MBK₀₀₄ 20:45, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I've got a couple of books that make mention of the unique construction of the Albany and Topeka, but I'm not home right now. I'll look them up later today. I was a bit surprised that no one had caught and added this information by now. - Ken keisel (talk) 20:59, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Deletions

Ken, I didn't delete anything by you. What I did to your article about the jet jeep was move it to a new name, so as to better comply with our naming standards.

Do you believe in apologizing? DS (talk) 20:09, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

• Did you not notice that in the process of moving it you deleted all the contents of the article! I can't retreive any of it! That's over a day's worth of research and two hours of typing gone! I'm am giving you your fist warning to replace or retreive the information you destroyed or I will contact the site administartors to have you blocked. You discussion page is crammed full of people already upset with your deletion of their articles, and I'm a bit surprised you haven't been blocked already. - Ken keisel (talk) 20:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Ken. I don't think you quite understand how article-moving works... or, for that matter, how article history works. I did not delete any of the material. It's all still there. I inspected the article history, and it looks like you deleted the material (although I'm certain it was by accident). Furthermore, all the material is still available by going through the article history. Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=XH-26_Jet_Jeep&action=history

Now, click on .... say, the second-oldest of those versions. Then click "edit". You'll see. DS (talk) 20:22, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey. As an uninvolved editor, I'd like to point out that moving a page does not delete any of the content. If the content that was restored is incorrect, then it was incorrect before it was moved. I suggest that you restore the text that you'd written before, and then work from there, as leaving a page blank usually ends up with it being deleted (though you can recreate it). Ale_Jrb 20:34, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

You say that "what's left is no longer accurate" but it's the same as your last version. You can compare the two versions here. The only other version of the article is here. --Snigbrook 20:36, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

• • No, this bloke deleted a two thousand word article by merging it with a pre-existing stub while I was saving it. As a result only the stub survived, and the article was lost. This fellow is acting as a site administrator without understanding that his actions delete unsaved work in progress. - Ken keisel (talk) 20:40, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Hello

First of all, don't worry. Misplaced Pages can be a bit frustrating at times, but DragonflySixtyseven was just trying to help by moving the article to a better name. We're all a bunch of volunteers here, but most are really just trying to help. It sounds like you had unsaved changes in the edit window when Dragonfly moved the article, and perhaps things got confused when you then tried to save? You would probably have gotten a warning about an edit conflict, and what looked like an empty article. The site tries to make sure that nothing is lost, but that is one of the few cases when it is easy to lose your changes.

A good idea when you encounter problems like that is to copy the edit window of the entire article and save the text on your computer so you know you have the text while you investigate what has happened. One thing about Misplaced Pages is that everybody is free to edit any article at any time; occationally two people will try to edit the same thing at the same time and then things can get confusing.

PS. It looked like the beginnings of a great article. I still look forward to see the finished one!

henrik•talk 20:52, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks Henrik. What you're saying is partially true. What is different is that I had been constantly saving the article while I was writing it so that I wouldn't have that very problem (yes, it has happened before to me). What this bloke did was merge my two thousand word article to a pre-existing "stub" that I decided not to use because the title was incorrect for the subject (it lacked the manufacturer's name). When you do that the article that is merged to the pre-existing article is lost completely and only the original article and title is retained. I had planned on doing something like that with my article by merging the old stub to it when this bloke named DragonflySixtyseven merged my article to the stub first. If I'd have had another minute or two it wouldn't have been a problem. I didn't get upset until I saw his fellow's duscussion page and saw that it's crammed full of other people complaining about him doing the same thing to them. - Ken keisel (talk) 21:03, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi again. You can reply either here or over at my talk page, and either way I'll see it.

Every time anyone clicks "Save page", it is recorded in the history log. So let's see if we can figure out what happened here. Here is the XH-26 page history. What we can see there is that you created it todayhere, then did some changes here and then Dragonfly67 moved it from is the the title "AMERICAN HELICOPTER XH-26 JET JEEP" to "XH-26 Jet Jeep" here.

I'm not quite sure what happened, since none of that meant merging information with an earlier stub. I'm not sure how your expansion got lost. My best guess is still that something happened while you tried saving after he had moved the article. I don't think there was any malice involved at all. I would suggest we keep the stub in the meantime instead of having the article blank too.

Just a note: One of the reasons Dragonfly67 has a lot of messages complaining about deletion is that he is a pretty active administrator - he's deleted over hundred articles this september alone. Even though the vast majority of his deletions are correct, people aren't likely to write to him about the ones they agree with. henrik•talk 21:45, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

The article that currently appears in the history is the original stub that I was attempting to replace. It contains none of my text or formatting. I have no idea why my name appears on the history associated with it. The article that I was writing under the title "American Helicopter XH-26 Jet Jeep" was saved at least four times while I was working on it, but none of my saves appear anywhere in the current article's history. What DragonflySixtyseven did was merge my article after I had finished it with the other "stub" article (under a different title) in the wrong order. As a result, the entire contents of my article and it's history were wiped-out, as when you merge two pre-existing articles together only the contents and history of one is retained.

What DragonflySixtyseven should have done is either linked my article to the stub until the conflict could have been examined, or contacted the authors of both articles in an effort to create a single article encompassing the best features of each. The reason this fellow is catching so much flack from users is that he's merging articles without doing either of the two things I've just mentioned. As a result one person's (or more) article is getting completely deleted at the expense of the other. As you say, I doubt he's hearing anything from the fellow who's article survives. One final thing, if he's an administrator than he should have known that my title for the article was the correct one under Misplaced Pages standards as it included the required name of the vehicle's manufacturer, while the other "stub" was using an unacceptable title (in other words, if you write an article about the "Buick Le Sabre" you have to title the article "Buick Le Saber", not just "Le Saber"). As such, the "stub" should have eventually been merged to my article as the current title he retained is the incorrect version. I'm sorry, but based on what I've seen and what others are saying about him on his own discussion page, if he is an administrator he's not a very good or knowledgeable one. - Ken keisel (talk) 17:47, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Just thought you might be interested that XH-26 Jet Jeep is correct in accordance with the guidelines for American military aircraft at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Aircraft/Naming. I have had a look at your deleted contribution and as far as the records show all your contributions are in the XH-26 article history, most of it was deleted by one of your edits which was restored by Henrik which you then deleted yourself twenty minutes later. It was restored again by Ale rjb but you deleted all the content again ten minutes later. Just take care when you edit and if you make a mistake then use the undo function. It now looks like it could be a good article so please keep up your good work on it just take care. MilborneOne (talk) 19:15, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. I actually had created a much longer article, and saved it several times, but when the two articles were merged my article was deleted. There's something very strange going on with the way DragonflySixtyseven merged the two articles because it deleted all the stored history of the article i was writing and kept only the history of the original stub article. In any case, I've restored the article as much as i can at the moment. - Ken keisel (talk) 19:19, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I have done some tweaks to XH-26 mainly format and templates to agree with the latest project guidelines. I tried to copy your spec figures accurately into the latest template but apologies if I got them wrong. MilborneOne (talk) 19:40, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks MilborenOne!! I'm always thankful for any help with templates. - Ken keisel (talk) 23:50, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

C-82 Packet

Just to remind you about edit warring and the fact that you keep re-adding content which is clearly in dispute and under discussion is not really appropriate. MilborneOne (talk) 18:48, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring is the continual REMOVAL of disputed content that is not slanderous or misleading in nature. If you check wikipedia's guidelines, the content is supposed to remain in the article until the disput is resolved. - Ken keisel (talk) 19:16, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

XH-26

Hi again Ken and thanks for the work you've done in writing this article.

I thought I'd offer a little insight on what seems to have happened to your "lost work". I've checked around, and I can assure you that no version longer than the present one was ever uploaded to Misplaced Pages. That being the case, it looks like you almost certainly ran foul of an edit conflict, which is what happens when one editor starts editing a page (in this case, you), a second editor makes an edit to the page and saves it (DragonflySixtyseven) and then the first editor tries saving their version of the page. In this scenario, the first editor runs a real risk of losing their work.

In the wiki environment where anyone is free to edit any article at any time, this is a very real and unavoidable hazard - the "second editor" doesn't know and can't know that someone else has clicked the "edit button" moments previously ona computer somewhere else on the planet. There are some ways that you can minimise the risk, though:

1. place the tag {{inuse}} at the top of the article and save it before clicking "edit" again to start your work. This will alert other editors that there's major work underway and asks them not to make any changes until you're done and have removed the inuse tag.
2. build the article in multiple, small changes rather than making any single, large change. This is the wiki equivalent of remembering to save your work while word processing. This way, if there's an edit conflict, database error, computer problem on your end, or any other issue, you don't risk losing more than a small chunk.
3. alternatively, copy the contents of the edit screen, and paste them into a word processor or text editor and work on the article on your computer first, before pasting it back into the edit screen and uploading it to Misplaced Pages. One drawback of this approach is that you risk destroying the work of other editors, since the article may well have changed in the time between you pasting it into your word processor and your being ready to upload your version to Misplaced Pages. Another drawback is that most modern word processors will try to "help" you by making subtle formatting changes to your text which are not necessarily compatible with Misplaced Pages, such as the use of smart quotes, for example.
4. as a final alternative, some editors like to build the article in their own "userspace" first (eg, User:Ken_keisel/XH-26 Jet Jeep) and then use the "move" button to move it into "articlespace" when they're done. This will protect you from edit conflicts (since no-one else but you should be editing material in your userspace without your say-so), but you're still vulnerable to losing your work to a database error on Misplaced Pages's end or a computer problem on your end if you're writing big slabs of text without saving them.

Personally, I use both 1 and 2 above when building or expanding an article. I'm sorry to say, but developing a 2,000-word article without saving it in the interim (either by progressive small uploads or saving a local copy to your computer) was just asking for trouble. DragonflySixtyseven did nothing improper - he had absolutely no way of knowing that you were still working on the article or that the revision that you were making was so extensive. Unfortunately, we have no tower here to tell you that someone's just put a 172 where you're about to land a 747... or to tell the 172 pilot that someone's about to put down a 747 on top of him!

The other thing to familiarise yourself with is what to do in case there is an edit conflict. If this is what happened, you will receive a warning when you hit the "save" button. Instead of being taken back to the article page, you'll still be seeing the edit screen, with a note at the top of it indicating an edit conflict. If you just hit the "save" button again, you will absolutely, positively lose your work. To avoid this, you can continue scrolling down the page, where you will see a second edit box - your original, unsaved work will still be contained here. You can now copy-and-paste material from the bottom edit screen to the top edit screen, and when you hit save, your work should still be there. Yes, it's tricky - which is why it's better to avoid the situation in the first place by one or more of the methods I've suggested above.

Finally, the situation would probably never have occurred if you'd named the article in line with Misplaced Pages naming conventions; specifically, not using ALL CAPITALS for the title. Something like AMERICAN HELICOPTER XH-26 JET JEEP stands out like a sore thumb to anyone doing cleanup of new articles, and will almost certainly be moved/redirected very quickly. If you'd called it "American Helicopter XH-26 Jet Jeep", it would probably have stood longer before someone familiar with Misplaced Pages's aircraft naming conventions came along and moved it to "XH-26 jet Jeep".

Hope this helps! --Rlandmann (talk) 23:57, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Rlandmann, that information helps a great deal, and I really appreciate you taking all that time to write such an extensive explanation. I will certainly use suggestions 1 and 2 from now on without fail. Regarding the title of the article, I know I didn't use all caps when I made the title. Is it possible that something in the formatting caused it to be generated in all caps? Also, am I correct that the title of an article concerning a device should always include the manufacturer (as in "American Helicopter XH-26 Jet Jeep" as opposed to just "XH-26 Jet jeep)? I recall having a discussion on this matter back at the dawn of Misplaced Pages and stressing that any article about a manufactured product should always include the manufacturer's name in the title. At that time I got an agreement from the administrator, but it's possible that things have changed since then. If that is still the case then why did an administrator merge my article to one using the shorter title in such a way as to retain the shorter title for the finished article? That would seem to violate convention. If possible, can you assist me in restoring the title of the article to "American Helicopter XH-26 Jet Jeep"?

Thank you again for all your help, it is most appreciated. _ Ken keisel (talk) 23:48, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

No problem at all. It would be really nice if you could find the time to leave DragonflySixtyseven a note apologising for some of the comments you made in the wake of what was purely a misunderstanding. It doesn't take much effort to spread a little good will :)

As for how the article ended up named in all caps - I have no idea. There's nothing in the Wiki software that will change the case of an article title from what you type in. Do you remember what you did to start creating the new article? As in, did you click on a redlink in another article? Modify the URL in your browser's address bar? Or something else?

You're right about the names of articles about products usually being prefaced by the manufacturer's name. However, US military aircraft (and US military hardware in general) are an exception, and "XH-26 Jet Jeep" is indeed the correct name for the article, per Misplaced Pages's aircraft naming conventions. In these cases, we use designation-name, or manufacturer-designation if there's either no official name, or multiple official names. --Rlandmann (talk) 00:35, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Wyandotte Toys

Ken no reason why you cant move the article yourself the target Wyandotte Toys does not exist. Just use the move tab at the top of the page. You may want to consider creating Wynadotte Toys as a redirect back to the All Metal Products Company instead of moving the article (Just add the code #REDIRECT ] to the new page). If you have a problem which ever way then let me know. MilborneOne (talk) 18:54, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I have corrected the Wyandotte Toys article it now automatically redirects - glad to help. MilborneOne (talk) 19:04, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Just a reminder we dont copy and past text from one article to the other as it causes problem in that the history of contributers is lost which is against the GFDL licence. Articles should be moved to keep their history. Toys now redirects to the AMPC article so I think it is alright as it is. MilborneOne (talk) 19:08, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

References

Hi Ken - just a "friendly reminder" that when you add material to Misplaced Pages, you need to also provide the source of the information. You haven't done this for the details of the preservation of the XB-19 or XH-26 that you recently added.

At the very least, the source of the information must be included in the "References" section at the end of the article; and current practice is increasingly to include a direct citation with footnote (although this isn't strictly required). What were the sources of the information that you added? Cheers --Rlandmann (talk) 23:25, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Neither one will be straightforward, but I'll look into it; I remember seeing some debate about whether items such as your email from the curator should be considered valid sources for Misplaced Pages articles, but I don't know what decision (if any) was reached.

Remember that the cornerstone here is always verifiability - can people using Misplaced Pages (and our readers far, far outnumber our editors/contributors) check this fact? Which is why, by and large, we stick to published sources like books, magazines, and reliable websites. Leave it with me! :) --Rlandmann (talk) 00:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I know exactly what you mean; however, as policy stands, "nothing at all" is preferable to information that has been obtained through personal experience or word-of-mouth. While that's a shame in many respects, I think the reasoning behind it is sound, and it serves to enhance and safeguard the "authoritativeness" of Misplaced Pages (an ongoing fundamental issue for a project of this nature). I'm sure there won't be a problem with information garnered from a museum placard (the question is only how to cite it), but a personal email might be a different story. More as I learn more! --Rlandmann (talk) 00:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The quality of Ms Parke's work is not in question; it's simply a question of whether Joe Citizen (having read the Misplaced Pages article) can verify the facts contained in it. As the policy puts it, "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true."

While I have not the slightest doubt in my mind that the information is true and correct, I', not so sure that Joe Citizen can check that these facts have "already been published by a reliable source". I hope you can get a feeling for the distinction here. --Rlandmann (talk) 00:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Ken - for both the XB-19 and O-38, I've simply placed a note between "ref" tags based on where the information has come from. Personally, I think that the material in the O-38 article (while a great story!) seriously unbalances the article and would be more suitable for Wiki Warbirds (which, incidentally, doesn't share Misplaced Pages's strict policies about the type of sources allowable, AFAIK). After much soul-searching, I've removed the info about the XH-26 purchase from Van Nuys, since one of the verifiability criteria is that the information must have been published. I was successfully able to locate the similar debate that I had recalled from some months ago, and it confirmed this interpretation of the policy for me.

I hate to ask the question... but now what about the comments about the originality of the B-18 turret? --Rlandmann (talk) 20:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I've added a tag referencing it to the placard. Not that it's got anything to do with aircraft, but Bridge of Dreams needs specific sources too; simply naming the organisation isn't sufficient. Did the information come from a book put out by the visitors' centre? pamphlet? Signpost beside the bridge? I took a look at the county visitors' centre website, but couldn't find anything like that level of detail there... --Rlandmann (talk) 21:01, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Great - then that's what needs to go in the "References" section of the article --Rlandmann (talk) 21:16, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The full set of citation parameters for web content is at {{cite web}}; I've added a reference to the page you pointed me to as an example of some of the more commonly used ones. --Rlandmann (talk) 21:45, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

PS - since you've obviously been there, perhaps you took a photo of the bridge you could upload?

Berlin, Holmes County, Ohio

I've formatted the references; if you used any other pages on the "Berlin Village Info" site apart from the History page, they should get separate references as well (I had to go off-site to find the publisher information). You can also see how to create a direct citation connecting the Amish population information with the reference that it came from.

In the article itself, I'm a little concerned about this statement:

Do you have a reference for thiso? It reads like a personal opinion. Without a reference, it would have to go (although it would be fine for Wikitravel). --Rlandmann (talk) 20:10, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

This is the problem: your edits continue to be somewhat OR-ish and POV, and the version that you've restored has less proper section headers and extra links (for example, to Amish). I'm not opposed to you, or trying to delete all that you add (otherwise, I would have removed the big History section); it's just that I'm ensuring that the page is as close to Misplaced Pages's standards as possible. By the way, you appear to have wondered why I didn't notice your message: as you didn't sign your talk page notice, it was signed by a bot, and my watchlist doesn't include actions done by bots. Nyttend (talk) 20:37, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Please read WP:V and WP:RS: if no newspaper or book or reliable website has covered this aspect, nothing may be said: posting something without proper sourcing violates Misplaced Pages's policies. Nyttend (talk) 20:40, 27 October 2008 (UTC)