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Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Electronic music Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Electronic music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Electronic music on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Electronic musicWikipedia:WikiProject Electronic musicTemplate:WikiProject Electronic musicelectronic music Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Music/Music genres task force Space music is within the scope of the Music genres task force of the Music project, a user driven attempt to clean up and standardize music genre articles on Misplaced Pages. Please visit the task force guidelines page for ideas on how to structure a genre article and help us assess and improve genre articles to good article status.Music/Music genres task forceWikipedia:WikiProject Music/Music genres task forceTemplate:WikiProject Music/Music genres task forcemusic genre

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OR&SYN Tags

Despite this being a somewhat informative article there are many problems with it. It is clear that a wide range of sources (many of them weak) are being combined to forward a synthesized, original research based article. WP:OR and WP:SYN guidelines are clearly contravened. Many of the citations are WP:POV comments left by contributing editors and are supported by self-published sources and internet items. This is problematic in relation to WP:RS policy. It seems evident that there are few if any verifiable secondary sources provided, that one could consider references on the subject of space music. A reference list would be useful, in addition to the notes, so that we can see exactly what the sources are, at glance. It would be good if the main editors involved in this article would endeavor to improve the referencing and tone down the synthesis so that it can be clearly shown that content reflects the view of reliable published sources that deal specifically with the subject space music. It is requested that the tags remain in place until the issues are addressed. Thanks. Semitransgenic (talk) 17:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

This is by far the best article in the New Age music topics, and with 102 references, one of the numerically most referenced articles in WP's popular music topics. Many months of intense research effort have been invested in this article (as well as painful personal conflicts endured) by a number of editors.

"WP:RS" This is also the best article that can be written with the available sources, academic and popular, primary and secondary. Writing an article to include substantial primary sources is acceptable if best efforts have been made to locate secondary sources that make the same points. That has been done here.

WS:RS has historically been edited back and forth, which means there was no consensus in the fine details. At the time most of this article was written, what was considered reliable was based on the context. The context of niche popular music is very much a matter of artistic opinions mostly not published in journals or newspapers.

Also, the WP practice (which was at one time actually written into guiderules) is to give more slack to the exposition of art and music articles.

That means it comes down to a debate over slack. Given that this article is already, say, 90% as good as it can be, does Misplaced Pages have enough slack to include it more or less referenced as is?

"WP:OR and WP:SYN" I doubt it. Every reference has been vetted for OR and debated, some more than once. A few issues were spotted and corrected after an independent review. You'll need to identify specifics, not generalizations.

I also disagree with your generalizations, and I'm unable to identify any fixable examples of your general complaints. Drive-by tagging need not be tolerated where nothing is obviously wrong, and the tagger is unable or unwilling to provide and debate specific examples for improvement. Accordingly I will vet and debate specific examples that you provide, but if you are unable to do so, or the lack the time for months of lengthy debates which this article has generated in the past, I will be removing the tags. Milo 20:28, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I strongly endorse Semitransgenic's analysis. The current article is founded upon, and lends significant undue weight to an unverifiable, unsustainable original research theory which has been lent the appearance of authority via the contrivance of having volumes of cherry-picked primary sources and selectively (mis)quoted third party sources insinuated into it. All of the above is deeply problematic, and an objective analysis of the situation by uninvolved editors at this juncture is a very welcome development. --Gene_poole (talk) 20:42, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

All I know is that I have viewed one of the few published sources that deals specifically with space music and it paints a rather different picture to what is painted in this article. Lanza (1994:185) states very clearly Space music is, in fact, easy-listening with amnesia, sounding like the future but retaining unconscious ties to elevator music of the past. Also, Space music can then be regarded as an outgrowth of easy-listening that is even further removed from musical foreground (p.189). Lanza readily interchanges the term space music with new age music, in one sentence it reads: Nevertheless, new-age/space/adult alternative music proponents keep reviving the debate over background music's aesthetic value (p. 187). The historical outline given in Lanza is not reflected in the Space music article. Can I ask Milo, do you have a reference for a published source that presents the historical outline as described in this article? Semitransgenic (talk) 20:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Taking it from the top:

Space music, also spelled spacemusic, is an umbrella term used to describe music that evokes a feeling of contemplative spaciousness. Space music can be found within a wide range of genres. It is particularly associated with ambient, new age, and electronic music. Some music from the western classical, world, Celtic, traditional, experimental and other idioms also falls within the definition of space music.

the definition provided here stems from one internet source, which is a commercial radio show - in fact it's possible that there may be a WP:UNDUE issue with the amount of emphasis placed upon this one source - however I note that none of the citations explicitly supports either point 1)Space music can be found within a wide range of genres or point 2)Some music from the western classical, world, Celtic, traditional, experimental and other idioms also falls within the definition of space music. Are there sources that demonstrably show both of these statements to be true? If not this is one of the first examples of synthesis that needs to be highlighted. Semitransgenic (talk) 21:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

As with all other musical genres, idioms and styles, "space music" can only viably be defined by its inherent musical characteristics.

Instead, this article currently tries hard to suggest that the term is some sort of catch-all phrase that can be applied willy-nilly to any music that happens to be broadcast by a single US-based, nationally-syndicated specialist music radio show - no matter if it's classical, Celtic, Flamenco, mediaeval, electronic, Indian, a film soundtrack, ECM-style cool jazz or anything else. This is a specious, unsustainable piece of original research, and it has to go.

In reality, "space music" is part of a continuum of music which is broadly atmospheric in context (ie, which most people familiar with it usually choose to term "ambient" (however accurately/inaccurately) in contemporary parlance). It is certainly not the "property" of any one person, group or commercial entity.

If 100 people refer to something as "X", and 1 person refers to the same something as "Y", it is totally unacceptable to promote or imply that "Y" is a preferred or common terminology - yet that is exactly what the current version of this article does.

Instead it should properly reflect the fact that Steven Hill, John Diliberto, Chuck van Zyl, Forest, myself and my 2 colleagues and other broadcasters of note have all been programming pretty much the same mix of artists, albums and musical genres and styles, in a broadly similar manner, for a very long time - and that something known as "space music" - however it is defined - which people generally recognise as a consequence of its low-key, impressionistic, non-rhythmic, atmospheric, "space-inducing" sonic characteristics - is one of the recurrent themes common to all of our on-air activities. --Gene_poole (talk) 23:53, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

There is definitely a muddle, and it relates to confusing three specific areas: kosmische musik (notice the English translation, 'cosmic music', redirects to space music, Ambient music, and New age music. I'm not sure it's wise to ignore the literature pertaining to the evolution of each of these genres because one radio producer states that "Any music with a generally slow pace and space-creating sound image can be called spacemusic", this is actually a commercial entities branding drive, that is what I find most contentious about all of this, never mind the blatant misrepresentations that exist in the article. Semitransgenic (talk) 00:39, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

1. "In fact, almost any music with a slow pace and space-creating sound images could be called spacemusic." Stephen Hill, co-founder, Hearts of Space, What is spacemusic?
2. "Any music with a generally slow, relaxing pace and space-creating imagery or atmospherics may be considered Space Music, without conventional rhythmic elements, while drawing from any number of traditional, ethnic, or modern styles." Lloyde Barde, July/August 2004, Making Sense of the Last 20 Years in New Music
3. "When you listen to space and ambient music you are connecting with a tradition of contemplative sound experience whose roots are ancient and diverse. The genre spans historical, ethnic, and contemporary styles. In fact, almost any music with a slow pace and space-creating sound images could be called spacemusic." Stephen Hill, co-founder, Hearts of Space, What is spacemusic?
4. Lanza, Joseph (2004). Elevator Music: A Surreal History of Muzak, Easy-listening, and Other Moodsong. University of Michigan Press. p. 184. ISBN 0472089420. space music evokes vague images of regal landscapes perhaps encountered in past lives or the tones of a harmonic convergence between earth and other celestial bodies...
5. Cite error: The named reference ref35 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
6. Herberlein, L.A. (2002). The Rough Guide to Internet Radio. Rough Guides. p. 95. ISBN 1858289610.
7. Cite error: The named reference ref43 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
8. "Significant Works of the Berlin-School". Star's End Radio. 2001. Among the core albums of this genre were Rubycon and Phaedra by Tangerine Dream, Picture Music and Mirage by Klaus Schulze and Inventions for Electric Guitar and New Age of Earth by Ash Ra Tempel. Released in the 1970s, all were considered to be ahead of their time. ...Yet, it was the more aesthetic based elements of the day that molded Spacemusic into a musical form. Music from Karlheinz Stockhausen and his groundbreaking electronic work Hymnen as tempered by the psychedelic improvisations of rock groups like the Grateful Dead and Pink Floyd as well as epic sized classical compositions by the venerable Richard Wagner informed this movement with a sense of scale. The result of these cultural and technological influences is a timeless and unique music characterized by a mysterious mood and evocative atmosphere.
9. Cite error: The named reference ref48 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
10. Cite error: The named reference ref36b was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
11. Hurwitz, David (2005). Exploring Haydn: A Listener's Guide to Music's Boldest Innovator. Amadeus Press Unlocking the Masters Series. Hal Leonard. pp. 78–81. ISBN 1574671162.
12. Cite error: The named reference coyote was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

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