Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 04:07, 11 November 2008

Edit in Franz Liszt article

Then why don't you find a reference and add it, instead of just deleting it? —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  02:08 29 July, 2008 (UTC)

I did not "just delete it", I explained why the deleted passage was wrong. The Liszt article is very long already and this particular ancestry is tangential at best. Hence my explanation goes into the edit summary but does not clutter up the article.--Number17 (talk) 17:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

ANI notification, and some questions

Hi there. First of all, I'd like to notify you of an ANI thread involving you here. Kimberley Cornish (talk · contribs) should have notified you about this right away, sorry.

I would also like to ask you about the relationship between you and Number17 (talk · contribs), since you use that as your sig. It is very confusing. You will see some comments from me about it at the ANI thread. It does not appear you are attempting to engage in sockpuppetry for purposes of disruption or evading a block, so I think it is all fine... I'm just wondering what gives :) Let me know if you could, either here, or on my talk page, or at the ANI thread. Thanks! --Jaysweet (talk) 18:04, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I hope you will find my answer at ANI to be sufficient.--Number17 (talk) 17:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Re: The Jew of Linz

Thanks for the note. When you say that outside opinions, etc., have been brought to Cornish, are you talking about on-wiki or off-wiki? Since you and she have been arguing on the talk page, I mostly only see the two of you participating, with a little bit of contribution from Albion moonlight (talk · contribs). So that's why I thought a Request for Comment (from Wikipedians!) might be helpful. If for no other reason, this helps get enough eyes on it to enforce consensus, should one or more editors resist the consensus.

One problem I am noticing in the discussion between you and Cornish is that both of you seem to be relying on interpreting the secondary sources to make a personal assessment of the validity of Cornish's work. Misplaced Pages has policies to discourage/prohibit original research and synthesis of information that is not directly presented in the sources. Because Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, it seeks to present what third-party sources say in a neutral manner.

Now, with the philosophy out of the way, down to brass tacks: The article as it stands has major POV problems, and I do believe you are trying to rectify them. I have not read the book, but from a brief perusal of the reviews and the article, I find her thesis both implausible and distasteful. The Richmond Review article put it nicely when calling the book "learned sensationalism." That seems to summarize the mainstream coverage of the book.

Yet the article clearly attempts to bury this. The "Reception in Germany and Austria" section touches on this, but fails to actually characterize the overall reception (which is painfully clear after reading the reviews) and even goes so far as to lash back at the reviewers (e.g. "A review by Kathrin Chod in Berliner Lesezeichen 4/99 reels off, with an increasingly weary air of stunned sarcasm, the conjectures put forward by Cornish. At the end, the reviewer refrains from delivering a coup de grace or even a conclusion, trusting the reader to supply one themselves in light of what has been shown." That is so far from neutral, I don't even know what to say!)

The other problem is the o'erlengthy "Evidence" section. The purpose of the Misplaced Pages is to summarize what the book is about, not to summarize Cornish's argument. The sources referenced do not discuss the book, they are the bibliography of the book, and that is not the purpose of the Misplaced Pages article (again, this is synthesis of information from secondary sources to make an argument, which is not encouraged).

I will raise these issues on the talk page and we'll see where it goes from there. --Jaysweet (talk) 13:56, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. When you say that outside opinions, etc., have been brought to Cornish, are youtalking about on-wiki or off-wiki?

Both! See (1) my WikiAnswer discussion with Cornish (btw, Kimberley is a "he"), (2) the continuation on the talk page, (3) the archived discussion threads at http://groups.google.de/group/humanities.music.composers.wagner, but most importantly (4) the many many fruitless discussions with Cornish over the past several years on the talk page.

The upshot always is the same: discussion with Cornish is useless, he employs a well-honed arsenal made up of "PLAYING STUPID", "MOVING THE GOALPOSTS", "CHILDISH STUBBORNNESS", "INJURED INNOCENCE", until the exasperated counterpart gives up and leaves, all in the service of making sure that he can continue peddling his product unimpeded to a less than savory demographic plus unwary passersby.

I am sure that in my strolls through the fields of Misplaced Pages, I encountered a page or two that specifically address the problem of disingenuous debating tactics, however, I don't remember where.

To be clear, it is NOT my aim to "improve", "edit" or "meliorate" the article. Somebody who pens adulatory letters to holocaust denier David Irving and reeks of pathological obsession with Jews, Hitler, and antisemitism is way outside of my ambit.

I want the article moved to the loony bin, where the Moon Hoax people are. Cornish's refusal to engage in rational debate, where he would have to acknowledge fair points the other side makes, is part of the rationale for the move, the other is the numerous distortions of fact in his book and his online postings.

The purpose of editing should not be to "correct" the misinformation in his book; that misinformation is there and must be accurately summarized; it cannot be suppressed in a Misplaced Pages article. Cornish wants an article that is an advertorial for him; even a bland recounting of the claims in the book serves his purpose.

One problem I am noticing in the discussion between you and Cornish is that both of you seem to be relying on interpreting the secondary sources to make a personal assessment of the validity of Cornish's work. Misplaced Pages has policies to discourage/prohibit original research and synthesis of information that is not directly presented in the sources. Because Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, it seeks to present what third-party sources say in a neutral manner.

Not sure I understand... if you have the time, maybe you could give an example?

I am shocked that you felt that the new section put in by me about reviews in Germany and Austria "goes so far as to lash back at the reviewers". That was the last thing on my mind when I wrote the summaries!

What I did was to enter "Kimberley Cornish" as search string into Google, and then extract the top five German-language reviews regardless of content; I merely changed the order to put the oldest review first and the newest last. In writing the review summaries, I tried my best to avoid bias while maintaining a certain stylishness that would give an idea of the reviewer's stance.

Judging by your reaction, I failed miserably in that regard.

However, I welcome your criticism and will try to do better. By the way, how do I manage an indent? Thanks!--Number17 (talk) 14:48, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I misread the discreption of the Berliner Lesezeichen article.. I realized my mistake later, and that's why I left it in. I thought it was saying that the reviewer had not even bothered to make a conclusion, and was just criticizing the book, but I saw when I re-read it what your intention was. My bad. I still think the sentence has WP:NPOV problems, but the pov problems are in the opposite direction :D Eventually hopefully we can fix it up to read correctly.

I didn't realize you had recently added that section. That's like the only thing that even gives a flavor for the actual mainstream reaction to this book, heh... So good start there, really.

I have tagged the article as having a "conflict of interest" and I intend to work on it some more. As I mentioned, the Evidence section needs way trimmed back (there is no reason to give a condensed version of the book here) and the article should also make it abundantly clear to the reader what the mainstream press' reaction to this book has been. It will take some time to get the article whipped into shape, though.

Oh yeah, and you can do indents by putting one or more colons (:) before your paragraph (each colon is another level of indent). --Jaysweet (talk) 16:15, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Template:Translated page

I am afraid that I had to revert your edits as you completely deleted the template code. To edit the instructions, you need to go to this page Template:Translated page/doc - if you take a look at the existing instructions you will see a little edit link next to that link - clicking on that will take you to the documentation sub-page in edit mode. The thing to remember is that the template page itself (Template:Translated page in this case) contains the code for the template and that should only be edited if you really know what you are doing as any edits affect how the template is displayed on all the pages that use it. Template documentation is always in a subpage. Hope this helps. – ukexpat (talk) 17:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

No, you cannot do it like that. The instructions/documentation are here: Template:Translated page/doc. You must make your edits on that page not on the template main page. – ukexpat (talk) 18:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I should have replied earlier at the Help desk. I have reverted your good faith edits. Misplaced Pages has thousands of templates and it's impractical to write documentation for each of them aimed at users who have no idea how templates work. I know such documentation could have benefitted you who apparently happened to come by this template before having tried any other or know anything about how templates work. But the large majority of users will already know template basics and will just be annoyed by having to read through elementary editing instructions to find the relevant information about this particular template. Another thing: As the old documentation said, the template should be placed on the talk page of the article. And linking to the page template is not so helpful because that page is written for the encyclopedia and is not about Misplaced Pages template. Help:Template would be better. PrimeHunter (talk) 18:42, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Template namespace is also a useful link for template basics. – ukexpat (talk) 18:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Right, it's better for using templates which produce a message box like this one. Goodmorningworld, I understand why you want to write the documentation like that in view if the time you wasted because you didn't know how to call a template. But very few users, or maybe nobody ever, will go through that experience with this particular template again. There should be elementarry template instructions for complete beginners somewhere, and there are. You were unlucky to not come by them before trying to use this template. But writing them at tens of thousands of templates is impractical and annoying for the users who read hundreds of template documentations. And writing it only here is arbitrary. I see no reason to guess that this template is especially likely to be the first template a new user comes by. I don't know your previous computing experience but maybe the following analogy will make sense. Imagine a thick set of software manuals which at every of thousands of instances of things like "Press Shift+F1" wrote "Hold down a Shift key while pressing F1. The Shift keys are usually to the right and left of the letters and may display an arrow pointing up instead of text. F1 is a single key usually placed in a row above the digits. It does not mean to press the letter F followed by the digit 1." Such instructions may be good to have somewhere like an introduction. I have seen people pressing F and 1 instead of F1 which is perfectly logical when they don't know a computer keyboard, and finding out what went wrong may be hard. But I guess you would get pretty tired of having to read past such instructions all the time to get information about what Shift+F1 actully does in the given software. A template documentation may have a link to template basics but I don't think those basics should be repeated all the time. Let's see if we can come to an agreement before involving others. PrimeHunter (talk) 19:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Printed manuals were just an example. Help pages on the screen would maybe have been a better example. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

A template can be discussed on the associated talk page like Template talk:Translated page (which hasn't been created yet but you could do that). See Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution for ways to get other editors involved, but I don't think that is needed yet for this one template. If you want to discuss which general advice Misplaced Pages:Template documentation should give then use Misplaced Pages talk:Template documentation. I will make a suggested compromise version of Template:Translated page/doc soon. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I have made a new version of the documentation. It includes a link to Misplaced Pages:Template namespace which may be useful to users who don't know templates at all. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

It would be possible to not display the orange box at top by wrapping it in includeonly tags (see Help:Template#Noinclude, includeonly, and onlyinclude). But doing so would be against Misplaced Pages template practice and annoy many users who expect to be able to quickly see what a template produces when they look at the top of the template page. If a user is for example browsing through Category:Misplaced Pages translation templates to find the right template for their purpose then it's practical to have the top display. It's also practical while editing and previewing a template.

The translation box is not important information for usual readers so it should not be on the article, especially when it's so large and in-your-face. The more discreet {{Translated}} may be used at the bottom of articles instead. Authors are not written on articles anyway so readers always have to click something (for example "history") to see who wrote it. And editors adding translated content from another page should say so in the edit summary.

I picked a random French article with a special character in the name, but it has not really been translated. You can click "What links here" in the toolbox at the left of Template:Translated page to reach Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Translated page which shows pages transcluding the template. PrimeHunter (talk) 03:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Hello there. I removed this template and put it on the talk page as the template says you should do. These sorts of messages are for the editors rather than the readers, which is why it belongs on the talk page. x42bn6 Talk Mess 01:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

But how does this template help the reader? Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia first-and-foremost. The editors "work in the background" to create good articles. The article itself should be an article - that is all. The article should simply tell readers what the subject of the article is (i.e. Dog talks about dogs), and not the meta-discussion about the article itself. Information that helps editors edit the article should be placed on the talk page, where it does not interfere with the readers' experience with the encyclopedia. If someone wishes to see the editors who contributed to the article, there's a history button - we do not need to have templates which tell users that such a button exists on the articles themselves.

I don't feel the template is used in such a way that it tells users what is wrong with the article ({{cleanup}}, {{prod}}, etc.) nor is it used to enhance the article's quality. Which is why I believe it should be put into the talk page. Readers should not need to know where the article has come from. x42bn6 Talk Mess 03:46, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, Misplaced Pages is a paper encyclopedia and does not have authors on its covers, or printing dates, or publication notes, etc. - the authors are all available in the history tab to satisfy the GFDL.

Secondly, since de.wiki and en.wiki are largely autonomous, the texts are not translations of each other and they will never represent simple translations of each other. de.wiki and en.wiki have different policies and guidelines to follow, and because of that, they will be essentially more different than just languages.

Thirdly, regarding the possibly unverified part, use {{refimprove}} or {{citecheck}}.

Fourthly, for the de.wiki page, {{Translation/Ref}} should be used, as it does not distract the reader, but preserves GFDL information.

Fifthly, any inclusion of something requires reason, not the opposite (WP:BURDEN). You have had two responses requesting removal - from PrimeHunter and myself. I'm sure if I use WP:3O they will agree with the two of us. The template documentation says to put it onto the talk page, but {{Translation/Ref}} can be used on the article itself, as it is much less "in-your-face". Readers want the article, less so the meta-information about the article. x42bn6 Talk Mess 19:00, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm getting concerned that you don't quite understand why this template, or the other one, does not belong at the top. The template documentation says to put this at the bottom of the article, in an external links section. The reason for this is so that it is not so in-your-face for readers, who will want the article in detail first. The translation template does not tell the reader that the article has potential problems (such as {{cleanup}}) nor is it a disambiguation link ({{otheruses4}}). Hence the first thing the reader would like would be the article itself. I'd like you to read WP:OWN and if you still don't quite understand why, I'll be seeking a third opinion. x42bn6 Talk Mess 06:27, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I saw the discussion here on my watchlist and have also moved the translation message to the external links section where it belongs according to Misplaced Pages established practice and guidelines. You might suggest the new placement somewhere but it's not a good idea to just place it without support. Misplaced Pages works by consensus, and some consistency between articles is also good. Misplaced Pages would have chaos (at least more chaos than already) if every editor just did what they preferred without regards to guidelines and other editors. If you reply then keep the discussion here before it gets spread on 3 user talk pages. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I now see you have created Template talk:Translation/Ref/doc with a suggestion. It's unlikely to be seen by many editors there and placing a new type of hatnote at top of an article seems too principal to start based on an obscure talk page. You might suggest it at Misplaced Pages talk:Hatnote instead to get broader input, but I guess it would be opposed. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:10, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Breidenbach

I am sorry if you took my words in a wrong manner. There was nothing personal about it and I did not even bother to look who just copied-and-pasted.

However, I have to stand by my view, even more so since there was an earlier version of the article without the wrong information. Copy and pasting removed not only the bad edits but also the good ones and made the article inferior even to the original version. What you did might be okay if you quickly want to remove the false information, but then you should as soon as possible start to bring the article back into shape. You didn't do that for over three weeks (and your last edit, on 6 August was uncalled for, as the article really needed wikifying - as correctly detected by the bot).

Don't take it personally but please consider my words in a similar case.

And thanks for liking my editing. Str1977 20:18, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. We all make mistakes. Nobody's perfect (but Nobody and Mr Perfect of course). Str1977 20:57, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Copying a Template from Latin Misplaced Pages

I have replied on my talk page. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:55, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

A note on deleting pages, re: Simon Moritz Bethmann (1685-1725)

Hi, I have placed a speedy deletion tag on your page Simon Moritz Bethmann (1685-1725) as you requested that it be deleted in the edit summary when you blanked the page. In future please place a tag from the selection of templates at this page as this will quickly bring the page to the attention of administrators who can delete it for you. --Joe_Work 20:00, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

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Hitler and Wittgenstein

Hi, Goodmorningworld. I saw your explanation on the talk page and reverted my edit, only to see that you had beaten me to it by a split second or so. Just wanted to let you know. Cheers, Parsecboy (talk) 12:44, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

House of Bethmann

You are the only editor to make edits to User:Goodmorningworld/House of Bethmann, so just copy everything from that page to House of Bethmann. This doesn't require a page move. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 01:15, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Good morning world, <smile> I think, you should try to take this article to a featured article or at least to a good article. This is a very good article in my opinion. Sebastian scha. (talk) 01:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

If you need help I'm usually available to give a good GA review when needed. --Banime (talk) 22:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Bethmann Bank

Sure thing, let me know when it's done being under construction and I'll be glad to rate it again. Let me know if you need any help or have any trouble. --Banime (talk) 17:26, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

David Irving

This edit was insightful; thanks so much! - CobaltBlueTony™ _talk 17:05, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Rotschild ancestry

The article does not state that the Rotschild theory is a minority view and dismissed by most serious historians. Could you please reference it? After doing so, please feel free to revert my edits on both pages. Until then, i will have to revert your edit on both the articles. Its better never to get into an edit war. Regards, Joyson Noel (talk) 15:55, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

See my comments on the Talk page of the articles, let's keep the discussion there.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 15:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Can you drop by the Alois Hitler article discussion page and answer some more questions on the Rothschild issue? --Cff12345 (talk) 03:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I can but I won't. Both sides have already exchanged their arguments. The case is closed.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 11:37, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, no it isn't. You still have not explained why you think the sources that say that Rothschild is Hitler's grandfather, such as Walter Langer, are incorrect. Please go to the Alois Hitler discussion page. --Cff12345 (talk) 06:39, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Walter Langer never claimed that Rothschild was Hitler's grandfather. Now please stay off my Talk page.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 14:15, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Your rollback request

Hi! I regret that I must inform you that your request for the rollback permission has been denied. You can discover why by checking the archives at Misplaced Pages:Requests for permissions/Denied/October 2008#Goodmorningworld. SoxBot X (talk) 22:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Apollogies

I'd like to apologize for my reply to you in the Village Pump area. Criticizing your proposal is one thing, but the personal attack was uncalled for. :-( I'll remove it if you wish. - Denimadept (talk) 21:53, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Re: Carr

I saw that it was a bluelink, so I removed it. Granted, now I see that it was to someone else, so that was a messup. Wizardman 03:20, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

"Throttle the boid"

Well...I went and did it. I killed the little cretin. —La Pianista 06:03, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Bethmans/Rothschilds

See talk page for the article. 22:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

November 2008

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Bethmanns and Rothschilds. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Please stop removing the {{essay}} tag until the issue has been addressed. 04:07, 11 November 2008 (UTC)