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Move proposal

• Move to Patbingsu -- standard revised spelling; no standard pre-existing romanization. Badagnani 04:08, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Move/Rename

Caspian has suggested Patbingsu be moved or renamed to "Bingsu". I believe bingsu mostly refers to the shaved ice (an allusion to the Korean term for iceberg or something) and bingsu is then modified as needed, ie Pat (red bean) bingsu. But there are other xxx-bingsus. Gwa-il bingsu for example. Anyway, I'm friendly to that idea, although it would take a restructuring of the write up (a task I'm happy to do). I'll assume Caspian has called for a vote and my vote is Rename. Mindme (talk) 15:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Stub?

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Personality warning

The previous two images are not only distracting from the main subject, but also I've always wondered as to whether the photographer got a permission to publish the girls on Misplaced Pages. I don't believe so on the latter. Usually gallery section is avoided under Misplaced Pages image policy, and the article has already one photo to feature the main subject, so please do not add blindly them to the article.--Caspian blue (talk) 22:34, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It's a good question. Have those people objected to our use of their photos? Badagnani (talk) 22:34, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

We don't know about that until asking such question. If I were one of them, I feel annoyed at it. --Caspian blue (talk) 22:37, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

If they object, we can remove them. Badagnani (talk) 22:38, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Then, you can ask the photographer about it since you're so eager to include them. Aside from their permission, the images are like cheesy-toothpaste ads. Patbingsu they're holding look like a second subject.--Caspian blue (talk) 22:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It's fine for you to have that opinion. However, those photos were already placed on a public website called Flickr, probably by the friends of the subjects. Badagnani (talk) 22:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Can you direct me where you see the images at Flickr? Because I transferred the images which were originally uploaded to ENGLISH Misplaced Pages (here) to Commons. The images pages do not have any flickr site. Please do not make such thing up.--Caspian blue (talk) 22:51, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it's been removed, but this appears to be the same person. Badagnani (talk) 22:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Whenever I transfer images to Commons, I check every detail of the history and uploaders if their images are missing within Misplaced Pages, but I could not see them being published at Flickr info. Besides, the image you're referring to is "All right reserved". Please do not insist such thing this time. Why do not you ask about your inquiry to the photographer?--Caspian blue (talk) 23:00, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Since it's clear that the subject is a friend of the photographer, it's fine. Badagnani (talk) 23:03, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

You're not the friend of the photographer. --Caspian blue (talk) 23:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

What's a personality warning? Do the images violate any published wiki criteria? If so, please link the policy. If not, instead of unilaterally deciding to remove the images, let's subject this to a vote. Vote keep or remove and then let's abide by the vote. Alternatively, since I've released these images, taken in a public place, to the public domain, feel free to crop as appropriate. Mindme (talk) 03:09, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/Commons:Photographs_of_identifiable_people

Here are the link. You know every images have to be re-usable for even commercial usages except fair use images. Honesty speaking, the images are too small to be cropped (I tried and the cropped hands are more bothering) and not look good to illustrate the subject. The images are alway stored on Commons and not gone forever. So if someone browses the Commons site, and think that the images are good for his or her usage, the images would be good for them. However, better images are preferred over some images, small, or bad images. Well, vote would be needed if you really want to. I don't believe they're illustrative.--Caspian blue (talk) 03:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

They are good to keep in the Gallery. Badagnani (talk) 04:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course, you have been always a "keepist" and "opposist" to my edit. I will raise this matter to WP:FOOD for !vote after I would add other images (on going OTRS process).--Caspian blue (talk) 04:28, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

That is untrue; many of your edits (perhaps most) are excellent. Badagnani (talk) 04:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

!Vote for the (future) gallery

I've cropped the images. Vote keep or delete based on the new images. In terms of the images not being illustrative, if you read the captions on both, they demonstrate interesting variations (one uses ice cream, another uses cherry tomatoes). That seems manifestly illustrative. If you have an alternative definition of "illustrative" and how these photos with captions fail your definition, I'd like to see it. You don't like hands, well, that's a personal opinion and further reason to vote. I, of course, vote Keep. Mindme (talk) 12:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

• Mindme's cropped image 1 Mindme's cropped image 1
• Mindme's cropped image 2
• Patbingsu
• Patbingsu
• Patbingsu
• Fruit bingsu 1
• Fruit bingsu 2
• Green tea bingsu
• Green tea bingsu
• Yogurt bingsu

I have more images, but the above are pending for final confirmations by OTRS. That's why I did not put them to the article. Not only that, I've got permissions on bingsu images from 3 more individual flickr editors. I'm waiting for them to answer which copyright tag between CC-BY and CC-BY-SA they prefer and want me to put on their images at Misplaced Pages. Well, we have more selections for the subject. So your cropped pictures are not much desirable any more. Besides, you gave an absurd warning to Kbarends (talk · contribs) who fairly edited Korean cuisine related articles on English and Dutch Misplaced Pages. That is disruptive. --Caspian blue (talk) 14:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The removals were disruptive because they illustrated (with good captions) various types of patbingsu. All of the above seem good for the gallery, if they have good captions describing the differences and uniqueness of each type shown. User:Kbarends was probably contacted off-Wiki by a WP editor asking for "help" in deleting those, something that is frowned upon. Badagnani (talk) 19:07, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, I don't think so. Such threat and insistent "nevertheless, my images should be included" attitudes are very disruptive. He is against the "consensus" or ongoing discussion". Besides, Lotteria does not sell bingsu in neither such the glass, but also in shape. People who does not know the market of South Korea, will be fooled. The caption is not believable as well. The pictures themselves should be distinguashable at a first class, so I do not agree with any of your opinion on this. Still, the cropped bodies are more conspicuous than the main subject. --Caspian blue (talk) 20:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm really struggling to understand your english, Caspian. Are you saying my photo of patbingsu from Lotteria is not patbing su from Lotteria and I'm being misleading with my caption? Also, I warned kbarends not to delete photos as he deleted them once after the photos were up for discussion. It is disruptive to make unilateral editing choices while an item is under discussion. No? It's fair to warn him that further edits would be considered vandalism. I think it is good to have various pictures of patbingsu, which is my intent. Your gallery is good, albeit I would argue maybe too big. I don't know if we need 9 photos of patbingsu. 3 or 4 is good enough to establish visually there is a variety. My pictures in your gallery do look out of place and in that context I'd be friendly to deleting my photos if you can acquire the permissions to mount your photos. But as I note, as delicious as patbingsu is, it probably doesn't need such a huge photo gallery. Mindme (talk) 20:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Ha, rather, I have been struggling to understand your insistence. I don't believe your first picture is from Lotteria. The fast food chain offers patbingsu in a paper bowl just like McDonalds, and Burger King. The removal is neither disruptive but also vandalism. Your false accusation based on your "own judgment" is nothing but a personal attack to him and me. Once any contents are contested, such info should be taken out first, so your edits are also unilateral in disregard with the ongoing discussion. Why would I asked more than 6 people for getting permissions on the above images? I do not believe Misplaced Pages is a repository,and images or contents once attached to articles are eternally reserved in any case. Always better and newer contents can be replaced with outdated, bad ones. I have not said that all images that I brought in here should be included to gallery. I present wider selections than your cropped images. Misplaced Pages Commons can hold all images, so "clicking Commons template" is enough for anyone who wants to see more images than several images on the article. Once again, I don't think your pictures are good enough for gallery section. --Caspian blue (talk) 21:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Ummm. You are aware Lotteria, in an effort to reduce waste, offers glass bowls and dishes to diners who eat in? Hence, at many Korean locations if you eat in, you will get your patbingsu in a glass dish? Also if you look closely at the red plastic chair you will see the top of Lotteria's italicized L and the top left edge of the O. If you are aware of any other chain in Korea that would fit this design on the chair, please link it. As well note the similarity of the chair in my photo to the chair in this photo at Lotteria. So, before you further libel me, I would suggest a bit of research. Whether you think my photos are appropriate or not is merely one vote. Yours. I've called for a vote. Maybe you should respect that instead of deciding for all of us and taking action. Regarding what photos should be used for informative purposes, I would use the first paragraph in the w/u as a guide. A version with ice cream, a version with yogurt, a version with neither. I like the photo of mine that shows a version with cherry tomatoes as visitors to Korea might be rather surprised to find Koreans treat cherry tomatoes like a fruit and one might find it on their patbingsu. As well the claim that Koreans treat tomatoes like fruit is made in this w/u and could use some support. I've posted the photo to confirm the use of tomatoes as a fruit. Remove the photo and we'll need to slap a "citation needed" on that claim. No? And the rest of your english I can only guess at so I'd rather deal with this claim I've mislabeled a photograph. Mindme (talk) 21:59, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Ho, your English is soooooooo good for "communication". I've seen all the same pattern by several individuals (including indef.blocked trolls) whenever they lose their ground and then seek personal attacks as a childish retaliation. At least you understand my writing, so we're "talking" here? Hmmm.. your captions and the section of the Lotteria article do not have any "verifiable citation". It is okay for you to use "Korean sources" if you can't find any reliable English one, especially regarding "patbingsu" since you're residing in South Korea. Japanese sources are also welcome. Your English is too good to understand the core policies like WP:V, WP:CITE, WP:CIVIL that you're ignoring. Your images had been served for the article because we know the idiom like "better than nothing". Maybe you should respect that instead of deciding for all of us and taking action. --> Oh, you? I like the photo of mine that shows a version with cherry tomatoes as visitors to Korea might be rather surprised to find Koreans treat cherry tomatoes like a fruit and one might find it on their patbingsu. --> Isn't this your own POV, citation please? If resorting to such attacks is your strategy, I would say Misplaced Pages is not a right place for you. The Lotteria image that you're linking is irrelevant. I have no intention to spend my time looking into bad images.--Caspian blue (talk) 23:17, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Look. You removed the photos. I came to the discussion and saw another user supported putting them back. Clearly I'm in support of that. That's 2 against 1. Restoring the images was warranted. You pointed out they might be in violation of a wiki policy so I modified them. I then made the reasonable request calling for a vote. Some user who has never contributed to this w/u parachuted in and deleted the images despite them being under discussion. I pointed out to him that the images were under discussion and further unilateral action would be reported as vandalism. You then offered several images in a gallery as an alternative. Of that I was supportive and noted that my cropped images did not fit well with the images in the gallery and sided with your gallery suggestion. We both agreed 9 images were too many and I suggested criteria by which we should select images. I also noted my images added important illustrative information to the w/u. You claimed they didn't. I pointed out they did and asked you to define "illustrative". You failed to support your first assertion and then moved the goal post and accused me of adding misleading captions. Your reasoning was lotteria only serves patbinsu in takeout. This only revealed your general ignorance of how Lotteria serves food to diners these days. And yet you want us to take you as an authority? I've shown your claims of mislabeling simply don't hold water. Instead of withdrawing your libel, you're refusing to even consider the support for the claim. I have to ask you, what substantive information have you contributed to this w/u other than deleting an image? If you look at the w/u history, I've added information and tracked down important references. Other than libeling a user who has contributed research and text to this w/u, you've done very little. So excuse me if I don't bow to your judgment, preferring to bow the will of the majority. This is something you seem unwilling to do and keep taking unilateral action. I'm now requesting page protection. And yes sorry your english is very very broken and hard to follow. I'm simply warning you I can only guess at a lot of what you're saying. Mindme (talk) 01:13, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Withdrawing libel? Your false accusations and ad hominen attacks are inexcusable. You seem to be an English teacher, so deal with it unless you're teaching me a free lesson. Two people are against your inclusion of your images because the better image comes up and yours have several problems, personality right warning, image size, relevant content. The removal is a good decision in light of the flaws of the images and is far from your own interpretation of vandalism. Such false accusation is just degrading your credibility. I bet your request for page protection would be ignored. You're only contributing the article while I and Kbarends have contributed to almost all of Korean cuisine related articles. Your mention of the cherry tomato is one amusing case to know how you're ignorant of Korean cuisine in general. Bingsu are largely divided into patbingsu, coffee bingsu, fruit bingsu, green tea bingsu etc, and such small garnish is not a unique feature. You still fail to bring citations for your claim, and WP:AGF is only valid for civil and moderate editors. Since the new images are confirmed by OTRS, I could add captions to increase "their value". Your unwarranted warning is I consider "vandalism" and "personal attack", so do not do that.--Caspian blue (talk) 02:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I guess Caspian blue didn't know that, but of course none of us is perfect (and Confucius said that those of us who admit we don't know everything are nobler than those who never admit such). That's what these "Discussion" pages are for, for us to confer and combine our information and knowledge to produce the best article possible. There just isn't room for rudeness or blanking without consensus, which are not part of our Misplaced Pages process, which favors collaborative interactions where we all work with and help one another, without sarcasm or rudeness (or implying that other editors are lying about their contributions). I think all the photos seem good; it's best to use the photos, with good captions, to illustrate various types of this dessert. Badagnani (talk) 22:13, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe your first picture is from Lotteria. The fast food chain offers patbingsu in a paper bowl just like McDonalds, and Burger King. -- Caspian blue

Compare:

http://www.gokorea.info/nonrand/600patbingsoo.2jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Crop_Korean_dessert-Patbingsu-01.jpg

Hmmm? Notice Lotteria on the receipt? Notice how similar the bowls are? Notice how similar the toppings are? Caspian do you still believe I've mislabeled the image? Will you withdraw your claim? Mindme (talk) 01:49, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I have not said that this "is not Lotteria"'s in an assertive tone. Well, you're native English speaker, so how couldn't you distinguish the sentence, "I don't believe" from the former? Will you first withdraw your personal attacks based on my English? Such childish behaviors do not make you logical.--Caspian blue (talk) 02:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Does the above imply that only Caspian blue is allowed (because of cultural differences) to behave with extreme rudeness on Discussion pages, but other editors are not allowed to defend themselves when this occurs? I don't believe any of us should act in such a manner, as it is un-Wikipedian. Please address the actual issues at hand and refrain from editing in a rude or antagonistic manner. At the very least, it is not an efficient manner of editing, and it is absolutely against our Wikipedian ethos. Badagnani (talk) 02:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

So you're supporting Mindme's extreme rudeness and personal attacks such as ridiculing my English. I've only been attacked as such by handful of users here such as Sennen goroshi, Lucywithdada or blocked trolls. You have shown no good example of civility and good faith. I have been hurt by your rude manners (blanking your hidden remarks) and absurd vandalism warnings (because I took them to talk pages). Please be a good Wikipedian if you want to lecture me. Besides, more images in a bigger size are presented and I don't see why the cropped images should be kept.--Caspian blue (talk) 02:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I asked a simple question. Badagnani (talk) 02:47, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

That is not a simple question. You clearly attacked me from the first sentence. What have you done to the article and this talk page? --Caspian blue (talk) 02:51, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

New Images

I've replaced the patbingsu with hands images with patbingsu images of the same illustrative images without hands. Is there any issue with these images? Mindme (talk) 10:52, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Is one image from the link that you gave me yesterday? Is the site and photo yours? You seem to forget the rest of pictures. We're still on vote.--12:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

The photo is mine. You'll notice I linked it initially from my own website. What would you like to vote for? I agree with Badagnani we should have one with green tea, and yogurt. As noted one with ice cream and one with no dairy topping is also good. I've put up one with ice cream from a major chain in Korea. I've also put up one without any dairy topping (found in a place in coex). If you have photos you think are better, then link them and let's vote. I vote, at this point, Keep both my photos. Mindme (talk) 12:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Could you tell me why I and others have to follow your "rule" all the time? You made me to vote the silly poll and to bring in images, but keep changing your setting for crediting your photos anyhow. You also demand me to research something beyond original descriptions of your photos. All images should be on a same guideline. ; Is the photo relevant, diverse, informative for the subject? The images that I've brought up are to give people more choice. Besides, at three people are not sufficient for "vote".--Caspian blue (talk) 13:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not asking you to follow my rules. I'm suggesting anyone interested in this write up to vote. I'm making some suggestions as to content. You're free to make your own suggestions. My images sat there for several months uncontested. You had a problem with them. Badagnani and I expressed different opinions. I've modified them twice now to match what I glean is your criteria for satisfactory images. If you do not believe my photos are "relevant, diverse, informative" then state your argument. The only thing I've seen out of you is a false and misinformed claim about Lotteria patbingsu. This for example is a good image to use for green tea. However I have to point out it has human hands in it. You noted "I tried and the cropped hands are more bothering". Here is an example where your poor english is forcing me to guess at what you want. I read this as you don't like images cropped but still show human hands in the photo. Mindme (talk) 13:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Still, you're resorting to personal attacks and WP:OWN attitude. You prove me you're doing wrong on policies, that's why you were blocked yesterday as gaming the Wiki system. Your pictures are not much different from each other and not so great in term of diversity. Well, all images that I brought is for broad choices, unlike your attitude like "I have to use my picture". Why don't you spell English correctly instead of "english" before mocking my English? --Caspian blue (talk) 14:02, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

My pictures are different from each other. One has ice cream. One has no dairy topping but tomatoes, a topping many North Americans would consider unusual (note the most recent reference). Other than merely asserting they do not represent diversity and salient differences, could you state why you believe this? Yes, you have suggested many images. Hence this is why I'm suggesting we vote on which images to use. I'm not sure why you're not getting this part. I've voted for my two images and your green tea image, despite the fact it seems to violate your "no cropped hands" rule. If you're insulted by my factual claim your english is poor, then I have no control of that. As I've stated several times already, your broken english sentences make it very difficult for native speakers like me to interpret your arguments and desires. I can only repeat I have to guess at what you want. Mindme (talk) 14:16, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

You keep continuing this discussion with such lower level of attitude. You have not voted for which images should be used; just trying to keep your images in support for your credit. As you know this article is not only about patbingsu, but also other varieties. I believe bingsu is more appropriate title for the article. As I previously said, bingsu are largely divided by red bean, fruit, green tea, cherry, coffee, yogurt and topping ice cream on the dish is optional and differs from shops. That's why I collect images of varieties unlike you. The picture of the green tea bingsu is your another string to attack? As I said, your photos are dominated by the conspicuous cropped hands in a "small size". Didn't I tell you that I tried to crop the images for better presentation? Your pictures still do not excel other images in quality and relation of diversity. As for the continued mockery, your such personality does not make the discussion healthy.--Caspian blue (talk) 14:50, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll look forward to your vote on this matter. See below. Mindme (talk) 14:57, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

They look lovely. Can it be explained what the one without ice cream has in it? Do we have one with yogurt? And the green tea will be good to show as well. Are you able to take more Korean cuisine-related photos if we need them at other articles? I'm particularly interested in the Korean liquors, such as those made from flowers and herbs, many of which can't be found outside Korea. Badagnani (talk) 11:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Let me look at what I have and I'll add the items to the commons and then message you on your talk page with the links. Feel free to use them where you wish. Of course I'll put them in the public domain. Mindme (talk) 13:48, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Vote (until August 28)

• Picture 1: Lotteria patbingsu Picture 1: Lotteria patbingsu
• Picture 2: patbingsu without dairy but cherry tomatoes Picture 2: patbingsu without dairy but cherry tomatoes
• Picture 3: IceBerry Patbingsu
• Picture 4: Patbingsu
• Picture 5: IceBerry Patbingsu
• Picture 6: Fruit bingsu 1
• Picture 7: Fruit bingsu 2
• Picture 8: Green tea bingsu
• Picture 9: Red Mango's green tea bingsu
• Picture 10: Red Mango's yogurt bingsu
• Picture 11:
• Picture 12:
• Picture 13:
• Picture 14:
• Picture 15:
• Picture 16:
• Picture 17:
• Picture 18: Ingredients Picture 18: Ingredients
• Picture 19:
• Picture 20:
• Picture 21:
• Picture 22:
• Picture 23: Fruit bingsu 3
• Picture 24: Fruit bingsu 4

I vote we incorporate Picture 1, Picture 2, Picture 13, and Picture 10. 1 because it's from a major restaurant chain in Korea, a place where English speakers might first try patbignsu. 2 because it not only lacks the dairy topping but it has what many North Americans would consider an unusual topping. 13 because I thought it looked most like green tea. 10 because it appears to be the only photo with a yogurt topping. I suggest we move these four photos into a gallery section with informative captions. Please vote on how many photos you wish to see appear in the body (one, two, three, four, twenty) and which photos (ideally from the gallery above). I think a week is sufficient for the vote so August 28 we can tally and make the appropriate changes. I would also suggest moving picture 3 into the food box as I think this photo represents canonical patbingsu. The current image doesn't really show any or much red bean. Given pat is in the dish's name, it might be good to have one dripping with pat as the lead photo. Mindme (talk) 14:31, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

This seems fine. Regarding red beans, I think the photo in the lead has a scoop of ice cream that is made of red beans. Can you please address requests for info at your photos' talk pages? Badagnani (talk) 17:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

No probs. I listed them in point format. Check and see if that's what you want. Mindme (talk) 17:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Excellent! Badagnani (talk) 18:00, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there one among your selections including yogurt? Badagnani (talk) 23:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm wondering as to how you would react to see this newly added images and the retouched photo of green tea bingsu that you childishly attacked me. You also inserted a blog source for the claim, that cherry tomato as if the blogger's point of view is representative. (using blog source is a no-no for citing) You can access many Korean sources, so why don't you use them? As I've been collecting more images, I don't see why your images should be kept on the article. You can add your photos to Commons:Bingsu, so you can contribute and be credited for your good works.--Caspian blue (talk) 05:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The zenkimchi blog is rather notable, having been cited by the New York Times and a major Korean daily. The author is also the food writer for the Korea Herald. The author is a host of the SeoulPodcast and a miele guide judge. He is, in my view, an authority on Korean food and worth citing. Anyway, vote or don't vote. Collect all the photos you want. Maybe me or Badagnani will change our mind based on your new images. And actually I have. For the green tea images I like your new one, image 13. Alright, so far we have two votes. As I stated before, I'll look forward to your vote or sensible contributions like the suggestion above to rename this w/u to simply bingsu. I've given a lot of ground in this, changing images, uploading new images, willing to bow to a majority vote, setting up a vote. Time I think for you to get off the pot. Vote. Mindme (talk) 13:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Your comment including the slang is another good example to show how poorly you behave when you're disputing. Please do not degrade the discussion to your level. I just suggest you to implement article with reliable and acceptable non-English sources since there has not many accessible English sources on the subject. You've been residing in South Korea for some years and attack my English ability continuously, so I naturally wondered why you do not use Korean sources unlike other editors who live or lived there. The American blogger may have some notability, but according to WP:V, his blog is a self-published material. He is not an expert on Korean cuisine, but just an English teacher who happens to write about those from a "foreigner's perspective". If his writing on patingsu is published by any notable media, you can use it, not directly from his blog. Besides, that is just his impression on patbingsu, so hardly can be a good source. I don't know what SeoulPodcast is but you seem to manage the show according to your site. The article has same problems, so maybe there needs more attentions by un-involved editors. As for your another false accusation, I have been spending a lot of my time to this and I believe I'm doing good and contributing a lot to Misplaced Pages unlike your disruptive behavior. The vote would be meaningless if the vote just ends up by the three person engaging in the initial dispute, so I intend to fetch people from WP:FOOD after every possible images are collected. More images, better choice. I'm so okay with any images for the article except yours and I assumed that you know why I brought up more than 15 images, but you did not catch it. Good to know. --Caspian blue (talk) 14:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't live in Korea. One can be an english teacher and an expert on korean cuisine. That the new york times uses him as a source and an important asian food guide has selected him as a judge seems to support that statement. I do not manage the SeoulPodcast. I wish you would research your claims. If you would like to get people from the food group to come in and vote I think that's a good idea. I can only repeat, as it stands we have two votes to keep my images and use some of yours. We have your vote against my images and I'm not even sure which ones you suggest of yours. Do you see what I'm getting at? When you're ready to put your nickel down, do so. Whatever images we finally decide upon, I am happy then to write informative captions for each, unless you believe you're up to that task. If so, call it. Regarding an old revision, geez. I had to read your poor, broken English over several times to figure out you meant you had modified the green tea image with visible hands. When I realized that's what you were talking about I modified my comment. If you're going back into the history to find out what I finally decided not to say (after I spent a lot of time decoding your poor english) for the purpose of getting insulted, ummm, that's your business. Mindme (talk) 15:14, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

So are you saying that the personal impression on the dish should be kept because his notability to some people? Not even blogs of notable award-winning writers are not used for references in Misplaced Pages, but attached to "external links" in some case. According to your user page and link that you gave me two days ago, you have lived in South Korea for five years and manage the show. Are you saying that all the sites on your user page are not yours or your twin brother? :D Right after I saw your comment above, I wrote my response based on the continued insults. Once, you leave your note to here, you can't go back to the past. I already saw it but it suddenly disappeared because you redacted the insult. Still the false accusation and slang remain. So the like of your redacted edit should be added to my comment for better understanding. Some images can be enhanced by image alteration, but yours have a lower chance due to the poor quality in general. I do not have a time to enlighten your ignorance of photography and layout, etc. You have to be careful when you're saying something. Since your speaking offends people, that is your fully responsibility. Please spoil this vote with your disruptive behaviors. Thanks--Caspian blue (talk) 15:55, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

If you wish to convert the link from a ref tag to an URL tag then please go ahead. We are probably not going to find much in the way of gold plated sources on this. However, that a notable food writer in Korea who writes about Korean food for a major daily paper has claimed this seems sufficient to establish the claim. Regarding your claim I manage the SeoulPodcast, again, I need to ask you to research that which you speak of. I used to host a podcast called Seoul Survivors. It is not the same podcast as the SeoulPodcast. You stated "You've been residing in South Korea for some years". (Previously you stated "since you're residing in South Korea.") I used to live in Korea but your claim that I currently live there (made twice) is again false. Perhaps you meant to use the past tense? If so you should have written "You resided in South Korea..." or "You have resided in Korea...". If this is not reflective upon your inability to research then it is reflective upon your inability to craft english a native speaker can understand without having to guess at it. What do you mean by slang? I'm tired of guessing at your english. Your statement that my images are of poor quality is your opinion. Hence why I'm calling for a vote. My writing offends you ("speaking"?). Anyone else? You seem to have this idea your opinion is the opinion of everyone else. Do you currently live in a democracy? "Please spoil this vote with your disruptive behaviors." Errr. Mindme (talk) 16:58, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

According to the page that you gave me and your blog, "I have been residing in South Korea....". This is your own statement and is written in a current tense. Or you should change the instruction page. How funny. If you can't act like other normal editors do, you're just unqualified user in many aspects.--Caspian blue (talk) 17:22, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I did not give you my gokorea.info page for any other reason than to host a disputed image. I did give you the link the SeoulPodcast page which I assumed you checked as we were trying to establish the blog author's notability. If you examine the SeoulPodcast page it is clearly stated I left Korea. "Seoul Survivors was hosted by Karl Mamer, Jennifer Young, and Joe McPherson. When Mamer returned to his native Canada, McPherson and Young continued the podcast under the SeoulPodcast name." Mindme (talk) 17:27, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Since you leave your information on your page, the info is in public. Why would I bother to scrutinize your podcast site since your introduction and index pages are the first sites that visitors can see. So fix your pages before complaining your fault. Anyway, that is good for you to return to your home.--Caspian blue (talk) 17:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Let me offer a small english lesson on how to make your intent known:

You: I'm wondering as to how you would react to see this newly added images and the retouched photo of green tea bingsu that you childishly attacked me.

Should be: I have added new images (pictures 13-18). The green tea image (picture 8) I have modified, removing the hands. Can you check them out and comment?

Mindme (talk) 15:21, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, why did you take out "you childish attacked me" from my original writing? Your lesson based on the continued personal attack appears to be flawed. --Caspian blue (talk) 15:55, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Because it was extremely poor grammar. Mindme (talk) 17:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, we can confirm again, that your behaviors are extremely pathetic. --Caspian blue (talk) 17:22, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll note again, I've been accommodating your input from the beginning. I re-edited my images, I supplied new ones, I've called for a vote, I've highlighted your good suggestion to rename the w/u to bingsu and called for a vote on that, I welcomed several of your suggested photos. I set up a section welcoming the food visitors you were calling upon and trying to orient them to the task at hand. Your stance has been to ascribe ulterior motives to my desire to keep my images (an ego motive, not a motive to educate people). You will also notice my goalpost has been an image that shows tomatoes. I think this is interesting and informative. You've added that (with some snide comment in the edit summary line). I have admitted my goalpost has been reached and took the logical action. Who was being rude in all of this? Sorry, your english is very hard to understand. Stating the obvious is not rude, especially in Korea. Mindme (talk) 17:53, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I've tried to search images and sent emails to more than 30 people to change your mind. I've uploaded thousands images regarding Korea to Commons. This is not an exaggeration, and you're the most stubbornest editor when it comes to using images that I've ever seen. However, you denounced my effort with the disdainful language like "go off the pot" and attack me for my English. Please don't confuse with honesty and rudeness. Besides, you're not a Korean, so please do not assume that all Koreans think same as people whom you encountered do. I ate patbingsu topped with sliced tomatoes (not cherry tomatoes) long ago, so I still do no think that why the cherry tomatoes are a unique feature. --Caspian blue (talk) 19:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

"Get off the pot" means do something. It is a very common english expression. In this case, I was suggesting you vote. I'm stubborn in your opinion. I clearly laid out my goalpost and identified the photos I believed matched those. Regardless of my feelings, I called for a vote and noted I was willing to live by the majority. Where do you get stubborn out of that? Anyone else get stubborn out of that? Anyone? If I was stubborn I would not have removed my own images when you presented one that matched my clear goalpost. Anyone else get stubborn out of that? Anyone? Geez. What part of that don't you get? Your bit about me not being Korean I have to only guess at what you mean. More poor english. I never stated cherry tomatoes were a unique feature, merely they are an interesting feature to North Americans. This I established by linking to a notable Korean food blogger (zenkimchi). The only one who is using disdainful language has been you. Even Badagnani had to ask you to hyper down. I've complimented your contributions and highlighted your good ideas several times. If I was being stubborn out of spite, why would I be doing this? Geez. You take offense to me calling your english crap, but I have to note it's crap because I keep having to guess what you're saying. Again, you can take offense to a true fact, but oh well. Mindme (talk) 20:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

"Get off the pot" is from "Shit (crap) or get off the pot". I have no intention to learn such dirty languages. You too know well that I do think your images are good enough for the article, so repeatedly denouncing my contribution is libeling. When my comment is incomprehensible, people "politely" asked me to revise it, not just said like you have done. Only trolls or indef.blocked ridicule my English in my experience on Misplaced Pages. Your absurd threat to Kbread is a good start to think that you don't behave well and just show "egoiism". Based on your continued disruption, how people can assume good faith on you? Badaganani and I have a long history regarding his introducing original research and uncivil behaviors to many others including me. So your example is all wrong. Still, you label me as a person writing craps. I have endured your craps for the past days, so I humbly ask you again that please refrain yourself. You do not seem to know how to communicate with people and handle disputes in a civil way.--Caspian blue (talk) 20:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

You're just rambling now, caspain. No one cares. Mindme (talk) 15:22, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Look whose talking? :p Mind your own ramblings. If you care, have a common sense.--Caspian blue (talk) 15:24, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

"Common sense" is a non-countable noun. We have common sense. Not "We have a common sense." Another free english lesson from me. No need to thank me. Mindme (talk) 15:29, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

No thanks for your "e"nglish lesson. I only want a proper "E"nglish lesson from qualified teachers. Good luck--Caspian blue (talk) 15:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Kindly moderate your tone. Badagnani (talk) 05:13, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Given all insults by Mindme yesterday, I really moderate my tone.--Caspian blue (talk)

The last image (picture 18), with the ingredients, is a good one too. I would propose adding that to accompany a new section called something like "Making It At Home" and note Korean grocery stores usually stock all the ready made ingredients during summer and run that picture. Mindme (talk) 13:13, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Hello WP:Food voters

Your input and votes are welcome. We want to have 3 or 4 photos representing the variations in this Korean dessert and, of course, the images should be supportive and in sync with the claims made in the w/u. In Korea tomatoes are generally considered a fruit (because of course they are) and one will sometimes find cherry tomatoes on a fruit-themed patbingsu. This would be surprising to many native english speakers who are accustomed to them being in the vegetable camp. I feel strongly for Image 2, as it is a variation with cherry tomatoes. It makes the w/u a bit more fun, interesting, informative, and informative for english speakers who might not enjoy tomatoes on their dessert. If you have any questions, please post them here. One of us will do our best to explain this dessert. To vote, please post your vote in the subsection above and bold your choice. Thanks. Mindme (talk) 15:42, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

• Mindme's image. Bingsu topped with precious cherry tomatoes Mindme's image. Bingsu topped with precious cherry tomatoes
• Patbingsu with cherry tomatoes and green tea bingsu

This comparison will be helpful for other voters. --Caspian blue (talk) 17:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I've deleted my images as this image, which you placed in the food box, serves the purpose of illustrating patbingsu and the odd tomato topping english speakers might, to their horror, encounter. It kills two birds with one stone. Good find. I would have to say this resolves the dispute and I'm not sure we need a vote now. For those who are still keen to vote on something, please note the first section about changing patbingsu to bingsu. Mindme (talk) 17:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't support the removal of the one with ice cream, and one with yogurt would also be good. Badagnani (talk) 17:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm friendly to putting the Lotteria one back. Image 3 (the ice berry patbingsu) is also a good one with ice cream. The down side is the ice very hard to see. The Lotteria patbingsu shows the ice, the ice cream, pat, and the shaved/iced strawberry is quite exotic looking. Mindme (talk) 17:54, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it would be excessive to add those, with informative captions. Badagnani (talk) 20:58, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Tomato fruit status (comment by sept 5)

Seems to me my source that Koreans have tomatoes in the fruit camp is sufficiently established by the citation of a major food blog in Korea, written by a food critic for a major Korean english daily paper. Anyone, besides caspian, feel this needs better support? Mindme (talk) 17:51, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

It's an interesting subject, and if good sources mentioning this can be found, they should be added. I've also read that cherry tomatoes are considered a fruit in South Korea (and maybe also in other nearby nations of East Asia). It's a cultural phenomenon that would likely be interesting to our readers, many of whom live in North America, Europe, or Australia, where cherry tomatoes wouldn't be likely to be found as a frozen dessert topping. Badagnani (talk) 17:58, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd also agree, if such a source exists then add it. The only thing added looked like some personal blog and fails WP:RS.--Crossmr (talk) 04:26, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah I see above where you make the case for the zenkimchi link. You claim he's cited in the new york times which is false. He's named dropped as the friend of the author there is a big difference: (mine included Joe McPherson, who blogs about food at ZenKimchi.com), Nor is it cited in Joonganddaily. The article is about the author, but its about him running a radio show which has nothing really to do with food. It simply mentions that he also runs the blog. That's vastly different then how you portrayed it above.--Crossmr (talk) 04:34, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Not Quite

Sorry Caspian I think you've misunderstood the consensus. The gallery is fine but the images were decided 2-0. Badagnani and I voting for the images I've bolded above and I don't think you even registered a vote. Your food bloggers failed to show. Anyway, I hope you can respect the vote. Mindme (talk) 02:52, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I have not misunderstood anything. There is no consensus to use your poor images. I clearly stated that any image except your low-quality images are fine with me. Those are not mine and so I don't have any issue related to ownership unlike you. You should brush up to read what consensus is. Thanks. --Caspian blue (talk) 02:58, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Besides, why did you remove "coffee bingsu" from the gallery? That is another variety that the lead images does not have. Green tea bingsu with diary product, patbinsu with "valuable cherry tomatoes", and non-diary are presented already, but what is so special of your image in such dark and low resolution? The patbingsu with big chapssal tteok toppings are unique and another variety. Besiedes, you're distorting info on yogurt bingsu as "fruit bingsu". Don't do that.--Caspian blue (talk) 03:06, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

There has been a vote. You lost. I'm sorry, Caspian. I'm rolling this back *again*. Further attempts by you to act in a unilateral fashion will be reported as vandalism. I'm really not at all sure why you think you're above the consensus vote. Mindme (talk) 03:11, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, your comment just reminds me that your past attempt falsely to frame my and Kbreand's edits as vandalism produced a very painful record for your part. I don't mind if you want to repeat the valuable experience again. I already repeatedly stated my opinion on the vote. None endorsed you to enforce so-called your weird policy. Your behaviors are nothing but disruptive WP:Ownership. So by your own definition, your "edits" should be considered "bold", and mine or others who do not want to use the poor images are "unilateral"? Don't do not continue the libel. You have already done such behaviors before.--Caspian blue (talk) 03:22, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

In looking over the discussion, I see that I supported Mindme's choices of photos, and also felt that some others were also good. I also requested (as I have at dozens of other Discussion pages) that Caspian blue moderate his/her tone. What I did not do is "vote" in favor of any plan of Caspian blue to eliminate User:Mindme's photos. I must say that Caspian blue's behavior on this page has been quite problematic, as claiming against the evidence that another editor "voted" in favor of his/her idea to remove another editor's images has really gone too far this time. Please don't do that. Badagnani (talk) 03:19, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Your personal attacks again. (how ironic you're condoning Mindme's personal attacks against me based on my English) You're supporting mindme's poor image for your bad-faith behaviors. Please don't do that. You've been reported for such behaviors several times (including false accusations, disruptive labelings).--Caspian blue (talk) 03:22, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Would you kindly moderate your tone? It is important, at Misplaced Pages and all Wikimedia projects, that all editors behave with thoughtfulness and consideration toward one another. Thank you for this consideration, Badagnani (talk) 03:24, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

You have been disputing for months for your original research and introducing false information. You've been following every steps of mine. Whenever I creat a new article, or edit something, you always follow me. That is so true. You have also once falsely reported me at ANI for revenge but nobody agreed with you.(you also supported some indef. Japanese troll for revenge). I have used up all good faith on you. I gave you a chance to renew our relationship at hoe (food), but you were using my information to create kuai (food) and redacted my edit without permission to solve your curiosity. Given your continuded incivility and false accusation, inappropriate behaviors, and conflicts, you're indeed in no position to say such irony.--Caspian blue (talk) 03:44, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Would you kindly moderate your tone? Please use this page only to discuss improving the "Patbingsu" article, thanks. Badagnani (talk) 03:59, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Would you stop following me from now and say such "inappropriate lecture"? You have been warned several times for your behaviors. I've been tired of your following (you've been accused for wikistalking by several editors) and unreasonable behaviors. Why do you think that every Korean editors are turning against you in the end? So please don't do that. --Caspian blue (talk) 04:04, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Would you kindly moderate your tone? It would be best if you would use this "Discussion" page to discuss improvements to the "Patbingsu" article. Badagnani (talk) 04:08, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Regardless my advice to you, you are also following me to WP:RP and reverts my edit on Buk (drum) to make you POV. Would you stop doing such thing?--Caspian blue (talk) 04:18, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm wonder how your personal attacks above have something to do with "discussion" regarding patbingsu as well. My demand is so simple. DO NOT Follow me any More.--Caspian blue (talk) 04:30, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

This is quite long but what was the justification given for having a gallery in the article and not linking to the commons per consensus in the image use policy? Misplaced Pages:Image_use_policy#Photo_galleries. Unless there is a desperately compelling reason to have a gallery here it should be moved tot he commons.--Crossmr (talk) 04:25, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources

I'm just doing some source cleanup and trying to find some reliable sources. I'm going to search a few other places, but I wanted to toss this one out in case anyone wants to add some content from it. its a weekly magazine published in orange county:

• http://www.ocweekly.com/2007-06-07/food/this-hole-in-the-wall-life/
• http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/art/2008/11/146_28562.html
• http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/art/2008/10/203_7196.html
• http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2533573
• http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2003418
• http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=1906983

These can all be used to add some content as they're all reliable sources.--Crossmr (talk) 03:20, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

• Start-Class Food and drink articles
• Low-importance Food and drink articles
• WikiProject Food and drink articles
• Start-Class Korea-related articles
• Low-importance Korea-related articles
• WikiProject Korea articles