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Query

I would like to apologize to you about something. Ordinarily I might send this in email, but you requested a few months back that you did not want to receive email communications from me. So, I will leave this up to you at this point: Would you like me to (1) post the details publicly here on your talkpage, (2) send you an email, (3) send the apology via a third party, or (4) just drop it at "it's the thought that counts" and leave it at that? --Elonka 04:40, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for this message. Your question about email presumably refers to this diff , which I wrote after you sent unsolicited email about the forthcoming activities of the real life Elonka Dunin to my wikipedia-dedicated mail account, which is not public. Please go ahead and post here. Cheers, Mathsci (talk) 06:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Apology

Mathsci, regarding the email that I sent to Orangemarlin a couple days ago, I would like to apologize to you for any misperception. In hindsight, I should not have sent the email at all, but I did want to clarify what I meant. I did not mean to imply that I have knowledge of you engaging in off-wiki criminal activities. Instead, my intent was to state that I feel that you do an inappropriate amount of research on people who you perceive as enemies, and that this research is apparently done both on- and off-wiki. However, I should not have written to Orangemarlin about you with the language that I did, and I apologize for this. I assure you that it will not happen again. --Elonka 07:23, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I do not accept this apology, in fact I find it even more offensive than your original email. Please try again. What you have written is a criticism of me and a self-justification, not an apology. Please go through one of the arbitrators to sort this out. Mathsci (talk) 07:26, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, this needs sorting out. I have just done a first draft of a mutual avoidance pact. How would the following do?

1. Elonka may post diffs concerning Mathsci at the Administrator's Noticeboard. Acting in her capacity as admin, she may make postings that are fair-minded and selective. They should adopt an appropriate and neutral tone, may express concern, but should not contain strong advocacy.

2. Elonka and Mathsci may post diffs about each other on pages related to dispute resolution, and in drafts directly related to dispute resolution.

3. Otherwise Elonka and Mathsci will avoid posting diffs relating to each other, and will avoid discussion threads where such diffs are posted that are not covered by the spirit of the first two points. They will avoid commenting on each other gratuitously in a hostile fashion, gratuitously or speculatively.

4. Mathsci has expressed a wish to edit articles freely in the areas of mathematics and French culture, over whatever areas he finds of interest, by following his nose on the site.

5. Elonka and Mathsci will avoid contact on each others’ talk pages, and by site mail, using preferably a third party to convey necessary messages. Such third parties should act as uninvolved go-betweens, not advocates.

6. Neither will use the other’s recent contributions as a starting point for editing. Where by chance they edit the same article in close succession, this should be and will be treated as coincidence.

Charles Matthews (talk) 10:22, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Redrafted, and logically #4 could now be merged into #6. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:58, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) Thanks for this input. Most of this seems excellent. I'd make some comments:

• There do not seem to have been any problems with my mainspace edits, within the normal way wikipedia functions. Odd users have taken exception to some edit summaries, but very rarely my edits.

• You should probably remove (4) because I have never said this and I edit quite a lot of different articles, in the usual random way. I have not been able to access detailed statistics on my edits, despite having created an Editcounter subpage in various forms, In particular a year ago I redid the history section of Europe with User:Hemlock Martinis (and at the end User:FT2). I also have edited vvarious BLPs, various BDPs, various music articles (eg I created BWV 105), located translations of anglo-saxon for witchcraft, located translations of papal bulls in Latin, etc, etc.

• I have already used Shell Kinney as a go-between with Elonka and she has been very helpful and friendly, although the outcome was not successful.

• As for (6), I don't think there is a problem there on either side. Elonka did once quiz a caption on Marseille which touched her own interest in the Crusades and this resulted in sources being located by me and the link to commandry being found; likewise she noticed possibly by chance a BLP on Paul Mellars that I had expanded and was helpful in prompting me to locate biographical details on the database of the British Academy. I have no objection to Elonka editing any mainspace article that I happen to be editing, however she came across it. This is how wikipedia works and she is good at spotting things. Likewise I'm quite good at finding missing citations (even sometimes buying books to do so!). I think such interactions as mainspace editors are only beneficial and help to build mutual respect. All wikipedians perform a random walk on wikipedia: I enjoyed finding material for Joshua King (from your talk page), William Molyneux, William Musgrave and Tullio Levi-Civita by random encounters. Similarly I find out about the problems with Michael Atiyah's BLP as a result of noticing a message on Moreschi's talk page. The content on Etretat about Guy de Maupassant and the mummified hand, acquired from Swinburne, was similar happenstance. This seems to be the nature of wikipedia. However, as far as I understand it, consensus seems to suggest that Elonka should stay away from adjudicating fringe issues in science or ancient history: my interest there is solely about identifying recognised primary and secondary sources, as borne out by my mainspace editing history (eg the identification of the relevant passage in Herodotus VII.106 for the now deleted Siege of Doriskos, which could nevertheless still become an article on Doriscus). I have no wish to relinquish these interests, which I think help add balance and are always scholarly and well researched; nobody except Elonka has objected and she has only done so recently.

• My main interest is in no longer being the subject of any further conspiracy theories or innuendos.

• I would add a seventh point, related to the above. "That Elonka not involve herself in any dispute in which Mathsci might find himself." This seems to have been the main problem, where her interaction on-wiki and possibly off-wiki resulted in a needless escalation of sometimes fairly trivial and easily remedied problems. MastCell, Jehochman and others have been extremely skillful in de-escalating incidents which were no more than storms in teacups.

Best regards, Mathsci (talk) 12:29, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, #4 and #6 were motivated by things in emails. #4 is not mean to exclude editing outside those areas: I was just including it because I believed you'd communicated on that matter. Let's tweak the wording to include something about the browse-to-edit urge.

Otherwise, if Elonka will similarly comment, I believe we might get somewhere. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:23, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Enjoy your Sunday. Mathsci (talk) 13:33, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You might want to ask Elonka directly as she seems to have disappeared. Mathsci (talk) 21:57, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

We're discussing it offline, to save further misunderstandings or worse. Charles Matthews (talk) 12:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

OK. Thanks for the update. Cheers, Mathsci (talk) 12:25, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Fernand Dol

Did you get a chance to see the Fernandol placard? Will you take the time to create the page on Fernand Dol or should we put it on the backburner?Zigzig20s (talk) 03:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I pass it quite often :) I couldn't quite work out why they've added "Hotel Cardinal" at the bottom. As you see I'm a bit occupied with Jean Sebastien Bach at the moment. But yes, I'd be pleased to help, when things quieten down. Ciao, Mathsci (talk) 03:39, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay. I can't sleep either :( .Zigzig20s (talk) 03:43, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi

Hi! Please note that I have filed a request for appeal here. Comments welcome! Best regards PHG (talk) 16:18, 29 November 2008 (UTC)