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Edit this section for new requests

Inappropriate editing by User:Cirt on Scientology pages

In just the last few days editing in the Scientology-series alongside User:Cirt I have seen a disturbing amount of POV-motivated editing on his part. As you may know, Cirt has quite a history here with seven (7) prior blocks for edit-warring and other POV issues. That history was whitewashed with a name change and Cirt managed to become an admin in his somewhat disputed Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Cirt. Although I had hopes that adminship would help Cirt reform, I fear now that that is not the case. Here is just a few issues that I have noticed recently that indicate that Cirt is not able to control his POV:

Misrepresenting tabloid material (of all things)

The below was my first clue that Cirt was still editing from his anti-Scientology POV and was not to be trusted unsupervised. He added this material here. This material is an utterly WP:OR misrepresentation of tabloid material that was, in itself, questionable to start with:

In 2007, New Idea reported that Scientology has "sex lessons" which can be given to couples looking to educate themselves to have "better sex". This guide studies their sex life and suggests ways for the couple to improve upon their activities. The article, titled: "Scientology Sex Scandal", which discussed the relationship of Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes, was one of the more notable headlines in Australian celebrity gossip weeklies in 2007.

Let's count the POV-driven errors:

1. The source article is MAGWATCH, which appears to be a column about gossip mags. This article is entitled "A ring of truth, but only about the lies (emphasis added)" which should give any editor pause before quoting from it.
2. Here is what it says:

   New Idea announces Tom and Katie's "scientology sex scandal". For some bizarre reason, the couple are reportedly taking "sex lessons" so they can learn to have "better sex". "Tom and Katie will have to share every detail of their sex life with an adviser, 'an intimate relationship guide', who will analyse their lovemaking and suggest improvements."

   So this is clearly about Tom and Kate, not about Scientology in general. Yet the editor here engaged in WP:OR generalization to invent that "Scientology has "sex lessons" which can be given to couples".
3. Now seeing as we now do that the bit is about Tom and Kate, a responsible editor might want to consider WP:BLP and think carefully about the quality of the sourcing.
4. Finally, a responsible editor might want to see if there is any other reliable source that mentions Scientologists taking "sex lessons". There is not and there are no such in Scientology. So an editor here just used terrible sourcing and outright original opinion to create a fiction about Scientology.
5. Oh, and calling it "one of the more notable headlines" is a definite reach. The article simply calls it one of "a slew of blaring headlines" about Katie that indicate that she is popular fodder for the gossip mags. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Justallofthem (talk • contribs)

Response

See discussion from Talk:Scientology and sex. Jayen466 (talk · contribs) supported Justallofthem (talk · contribs)'s position. The next proper step in dispute resolution would be to either: 1) Question the sources at WP:RSN, or 2) Start a content-based WP:RFC on that particular content disputed. I chose to disengage from this particular material and take a break from editing this article entirely. Cirt (talk) 22:26, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

One-sided approach to the validity of sources

My experience with Cirt is that he, like most critics of Scientology, operates by the rule "Scientologists lie, Scientology critics tell the truth". He is welcome to believe that but realize please that is a totally POV stance. Someone from the Scientology side with an equally inflexible POV would say the exact opposite. I refer specifically to Cirt unbalanced treatment of two roughly analogous sources, a Scientologist's site and a critic's site. I brought up that issue at Talk:Scientology and sex:

Lermanet vs. Scientologymyths - Different exactly how?

The DeWolf affidavit was previously linked to (www.freewebtown.com/luana/rondewolf-july87.pdf) here to a site that has been reported as an "attack site" as in malware of some sort. I do not believe the malware report was on the specific file(s) in question but rather on the site overall, freewebtown.com (incidentally, I just checked and it seems fine now). Cirt removed the link, here, citing "rm sources which link to attack site, dubious site anyways". I agree with that on both counts. For the sake of our discussion here I performed a Google search and found the document on the scientologymyths.info site. Cirt said of that site "But these particular sites being linked to are dubious, and written by certain individuals from within the Church of Scientology tasked for certain specific purposes. Not reliable sites, not even safe sites." When Jayen brought up the analogous Lerma site, Cirt's comment was "Ref 8 is not an "attack site", though it is self-published. Could be a matter for discussion at WP:RSN, however." I want to compare these site and Cirt's analysis of each. To me they are exactly analogous and I find Cirt's reluctance to deal with them equivalently disturbing and again indicative of an overpowering POV issue.

1. Cirt alludes that the Scientologymyths site is "not even safe". This is flatly untrue. The freewebtown site was listed as unsafe yesterday but seems OK now. Scientologymyths is not an unsafe site.
2. Cite says that Scientologymyths is "written by certain individuals from within the Church of Scientology tasked for certain specific purposes". What proof does he have of that claim that he presents so boldly as an accomplished fact?
3. And finally my main concern. Cirt see ScientologyMyths archives of primary material deserving of summary removal as "dubious" yet thinks the same sort of material on Lerma "Could be a matter for discussion at WP:RSN" but meanwhile I guess it remains in the article. This is disturbing to me. Arnaldo Lerma is a known enemy of Scientology. My challenge to Cirt, or anyone for that matter, is to show why the Lerma site should be treated any differently than the ScientologyMyths site. --Justallofthem (talk) 15:22, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Response

I admit I framed this discussion incorrectly and for this I apologize. What I should have done is discuss the nature of the website itself as a source. www.scientologymyths.info purports to be someone's personal blog, and as such should not be considered a WP:RS. If discussion could not reach a resolution on the article's talk page, I should have posted to WP:RSN to get further input on that particular source. That way, we could get more fresh eyes on the discussion. Cirt (talk) 22:29, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Spammed "Warning"

Cirt is making unsubstantiated claims about the Scientologymyths.info site. Cirt has made a number of unsubstantiated claims about this site so as to undermine its credibility and has spammed his "warning" across multiple talk pages. As far as I am aware, Cirt has never done anything like this with a site critical of Scientology; this is clearly POV-motivated. I ask Cirt to back his claims up or remove the "warning". He has stated the following about the Scientologymyths site:

1. written by certain individuals from within the Church of Scientology tasked for certain specific purposes (diff)
2. scientologymyths site is run by the same organization that runs the religiousfreedomwatch attack site. (diff)
3. scientologymyths.info is run by the same organization (diff) Organization?

Cirt has ignored my previous requests to source those sort of statements and instead has spammed this unsubstantiated "warning" on (at least) the below talk pages:

• Talk:Free Zone (Scientology)
• Talk:Scientology and sex
• Talk:L. Ron Hubbard

Scientologymyths does not present itself as an official voice of the Church, please see here:

"I am a Scientologist, working, and I use my spare time to run this blog and the website scientologymyths.info. I live in Los Angeles, California/USA."

Cirt appears to be trying to tar the site. I asked that he provide a source or remove the warnings but he did not do so, instead repeating his unsubstantiated claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Justallofthem (talk • contribs)

Response

I was a bit too aggressive with this one with the talk page warnings. Same with the comment in the above subsection, I should have engaged in further discussion on the talk page of the reliability (or not) of the www.scientologymyths.info blog/website, and if we could not reach an amicable discussion post to WP:RSN for fresh eyes. Also, it probably would have been better for both me and Justallofthem (talk · contribs) to discuss one source/website at a time, and not conflate different websites/sources in the discussion at the same time. Cirt (talk) 22:31, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Other

I find Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Highfructosecornsyrup of concern and will comment later as I just saw it and need to read through it more.

While all of these indicate a POV, none of them alone is worthy of much in the way of sanction. Taken together however and indicative of a pattern of editing, especially as they cover just a few days editing, I believe they are cause for concern. Cirt should minimally be strongly cautioned about maintaining WP:NPOV in the Scientology articles. Personally, I am sorry to say that I do not believe he can, especially given his previous editing history under prior accounts. --Justallofthem (talk) 22:20, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Response

I will defer to the proper process for the outcome of Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Highfructosecornsyrup. There has been some good discussion at the case page so far, but as is appropriate I will defer to an uninvolved administrator to reach a conclusion in that case. Cirt (talk) 22:32, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Domer48 and Ulster Defence Regiment

Arbcom case: The Troubles.

Domer48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

During a messy thread including a now recinded indefinite block, Domer48 was placed under the following restriction:

• Domer48 will join mediation, but under a strict indefinite topic ban on Ulster Defence Regiment and subpages thereof, and a strict *1RR on all other Troubles related articles in addition to voluntary terms with the mediator.
• If in the opinion of a 3 editors referee panel, in consultation with the mediator, Domer48 has successfully participated in mediation, Domer48's topic ban is rescinded.
• The aforementioned referee panel will consist of Avruch (talk · contribs), Tiptoety (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), Nishkid64 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

That mediation has not been entirely successful, but I think lengthy enough do determine if Domer48 has learned the editing behaviors desired.

With that in mind I'd like User:Sunray and User:Shell Kinney to share their impressions to Avruch, Tiptoety and Nishkid64 - following which the referee panel will discuss and ideally come to a consensus on the question of lifting Domer48's topic ban based on his participation in mediation. The mediators and panelists should use whatever form of on or off wiki communication that would be most effective, but the panel should report their final findings here.

The very purpose of instituting the referee panel was to keep administrators and editors who have been previous engaged in Troubles related issues out of it - so I would ask that we allow the mediators and referee panel work in peace. Thank you.--Tznkai (talk) 18:35, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

While it is clear that Domer48 did join mediation, and abided the terms of his editing restrictions I am not sure that much was accomplished, or that we saw a very large change. While I am aware that Domer84 has technically completed his restrictions; before it is lifted I am very interested to hear from the mediators as this comment interests me. Tiptoety 19:31, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Tiptoety for your comments above. I was not sure what to expect after this edit here, but it all turned out alright in the end. I would just like to say that there was a lot accomplished, but I felt there was a lot more to do. Unfortunately we were prevented from completing the mediation, I was definitely willing and attempted to keep it going despite the set backs. I would be very interested to see examples were my editing would be considered less then acceptable, either during or following the mediation. These examples would no doubt be very beneficial to both my self and possibly other editors who experience the same difficulties. As per my agreement, I have completed the mediation, weather it was successful being only comparative with my editing prior to mediation, I would have to say yes. I would therefore like to get back to editing the UDR article, as I consider I have a lot to contribute. I would caution though, that any lifting of AE imposed sanctions be conditional on editor’s conduct, and agreement to adhere to our editing policies. Lifting of sanctions on articles, should be coupled with the application of sanctions on individual editors should their editing become disruptive. That is just my opinion, but I’d like it to be considered, thanks --Domer48_'fenian' 21:45, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

• As a reminder, Mediation Committee communications, including the case page, talk page and any associated subpages, are privileged communications. As such, they have been deleted and replaced with a summary. seicer | talk | contribs 03:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
• Without going into messy bureaucratic details and to try to avoid any undue conflict, I'm going to ask that that the referees look only at Domer48's edits outside of the mediation communications, keeping in line with the privileged nature of communications as noted above. Furthermore, the mediators are explicitly encouraged to share only as much as they are comfortable with, within established mediation policies.--Tznkai (talk) 04:03, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

If the question is whether Domer48 has successfully completed mediation or not, how is that determination to be made without reference to the mediation? I have no problem reviewing his work outside of mediation, and planned on it anyway, but it seems like it will be hard to come to a conclusion on whether he has met the conditions of the topic ban using that alone. Avruch 04:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. But, I think that can happen while ensuring that any and all privileged communication remain private. I think what I was asking to hear, was the mediators opinions. I am interested to hear if they feel the mediation was successful and if it was not was that due to Domer48. Also, I am interested to hear if they felt Domer was constructive during the mediation. In response to Tznkai I can agree to look outside of mediation but feel that the most important aspect of the editing restrictions were in reference to the mediation. A review of his actions during the mediation can be done without violating anyone's privacy or privileged communication. Tiptoety 04:53, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that makes sense, what I was trying to say is don't go rummaging in the privileged information while doing so, but you obviously know that. I'll just get out of your way now.--Tznkai (talk) 05:04, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

One of the cornerstones by which Misplaced Pages's Mediation Committee operates is that parties' agreement to mediation is voluntary, based on the knowledge that what happens in the mediation is privileged and therefore cannot be used against them in later proceedings. This is designed to ensure that parties participate fully and frankly without concern as to how their comments might be interpreted later. Another important principle in that the mediator is neutral and does not form a view as to the content on discussion or the parties involved. Were a mediator later to rule as to the conduct of one of the parties, it would undermine that neutrality. Similarly, the mediation process would be hampered if the parties felt that the mediator was in fact sitting in judgment on them and might make a later report about his or her impressions of their conduct. Whilst the Mediation Committee is sympathetic to the need to develop new approaches to resolving issues in problematic topic areas, it is our opinion that the second element of this proposal violates both the privileged nature of mediation and the neutrality of the mediators.

The Mediation Committee regrets that it was not consulted before this proposal was made.

On behalf of the Mediation Committee,
WJBscribe (talk) 23:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

This is apparently the result of serious miscommunication, the responsibility for which lies with me. I regret that I did not more thoroughly examine the issue, and that I did not double and triple check everything was in order. It was foolish for me to believe that in the various threads and communications on this issue that all applicable parties were fully aware - I took the lack of objections to indicate that I had covered all the bases. I think it is clear now that I instituted this proposal in October, it was not proper then, and I apologize for it. I apologize specifically to Domer48. In order to avoid any possible damage to the Mediation system, I do no think this proposal should complete its implementation, which means that Domer is left hanging. In order to avoid that, I am lifting his topic ban on my own discretion, and ask that the community endorse this action.--Tznkai (talk) 00:10, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

• Endorse - Seeing as Domer48 has completed mediation, along with the fact that any further review of said mediation would result in a violation of the Mediation Committee's common practices. I have reviewed Domer's recent contributions and find nothing that stands out as a red flag. Tiptoety 05:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Science Apologist and Pseudoscience

• ScienceApologist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

SA has just been blocked (under the Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience case) by an admin with whom they have had intense personal conflicts . Evidence of that conflict is here. While it may not be good practice for arbitration enforcement to have an arguably involved administrators placing blocks, I am also concerned that SA is currently a party to an arbitration case I started, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Cold fusion, and that any such block may impact SA's ability to participate in the case. Therefore, I'd like this AE block to be reviewed. Please, don't reverse the block without obtaining a consensus first. Jehochman 20:59, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I have no personal conflict with ScienceApologist. All of my actions with this editor have been as an administrator. See WP:UNINVOLVED. The case is pretty open and shut: ScienceApologist was under a page ban at WP:FRINGE, and this ban was upheld by other admins. ScienceApologist violated his ban, ScienceApologist has been blocked. See his talkpage for more details. --Elonka 21:11, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

The discretionary sanctions restriction says that in order to be considered uninvolved, an administrator must not be engaged in a current, direct, personal conflict on the topic with the user receiving sanctions. Elonka doesn't have a current dispute, and the block is a valid one no matter who made it. I say it stands. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 21:20, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh joy. The page ban is logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Log of blocks and bans. SA was notified. SA's actual edits to the article are here and here. So not only did he violate the ban, he edit warred on the page. 48 hours seems generous. GRBerry 21:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of the merits, given Elonka's disdain for science-oriented editors the potential for drama would have been reduced if the block were done by a more neutral admin. This assumes of course that drama reduction is considered a good thing. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:29, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Elonka is clearly involved and this could be construed as a misuse of admin tools. Verbal chat 21:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

"regardless of the merits"? Sorry, but that's what admins do, take action based on the merits. Good block. Ronnotel (talk) 21:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Elonka's anti-science attitude towards editor is obvious. Why she would take this step is impossible to ascertain, but she should have no involvement with SA, given their past interaction. Elonka is not a neutral admin in this matter. OrangeMarlin 21:33, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Administrators are not disbarred from enforcing arbitration remedies merely because they have previously enforced them and the subject of the enforcement has decided that the administrator does not like them. A 48 hour block will not significantly impact on Scienceapologist's participation in the ongoing Cold fusion case. There is no problem with this block. Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Sam Blacketer, Ronnotel, Hemlock Martinis, and GRBerry. Concerned that several editors here are personally attacking Elonka ("Elonka's disdain for science-oriented editors", "Elonka's anti-science attitude") rather than addressing the substance of this block. ScienceApologist edit-warred, was warned, continued to edit war despite the warning, was banned for 30 days, ignored the ban to continue the same edit war with inflammatory edit summaries and uncivil discussion. I brought this matter to Elonka's attention because as she was the one issuing the page ban originally (endorsed by Lar), it seemed proper that she should also be the one enforcing the page ban. -- Levine2112 21:50, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Sam. For clarity, are you commenting as Sam the Editor, or Sam on behalf of the Arbitration Committee? Jehochman 21:43, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

As an individual administrator who is also a member of the arbitration committee and familiar with the background. Not on behalf of the committee but I should advise you that in my experience it is highly unlikely they will disagree. Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Disagreeing is one of the major skills lacking in the current ArbCom. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:17, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Hasn't the 'Elonka shouldn't block SA because Elonka's got a known bias' thing come up before? Shouldn't Elonka get the point already? Get someone else to do it, to avoid this crap? That said, this is a good block. Unfortunately the 'good block' part is going to stick in Elonka's mind, not the 'Avoid picking fights that get you more shit' part, ehich means we'll see this again soon. ThuranX (talk) 21:52, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Two comments:

• I did not look deeply into the situation at WP:FRINGE, but it looks uncannily like what he has been doing at List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts, and Elonka's description would fit that situation exactly. See Talk:List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts and WP:AN/Edit warring#ScienceApologist reported by Jim_Butler (Result: )
• ScienceApologist is well known for mercilessly gaming the system. There seems to be a chance that he thought he would be immune while he is involved in an ArbCom case. That said, it might make sense to unblock him with the understanding that he is banned from all but the pages he needs to edit to participate in the case. These pages would have to be listed specifically, to prevent any further gaming. --Hans Adler (talk) 22:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

That sounds like an excellent idea. I'd like any further blocks applied to SA to come from administrators with whom SA does not perceive an existing conflict. We don't need to give SA any more grounds for gaming or disruption (evidence at this page). Jehochman 22:11, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. SA is subject to the same rules as the rest of us and it is not up to WP to conform to his perception of what is fair and what isn't. We've already heard from an ArbCom member that the block will not interfere with his participation and that Elonka's actions were not unwarranted. If SA suddenly finds that he needs to participate at the ArbCom case, he can make a request through the normal channels. Enough bending over backwards for this particular user. Ronnotel (talk) 22:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

An accurate summary.

Sam Blacketer also said it correctly. By the nature of their role, some admins will become disliked by some users. It's no bad thing to stand back a bit, let it be seen what others think a while, but there is no rule "an admin who isn't liked by a user cannot act on their conduct", and probably never will be such a rule, for obvious reasons. So far not one person on this page has put forward what might be a compelling case for overturn. The case would be: "SA is EITHER not under an Arbcom-derived page ban, OR (if he is) he did not breach it (eg by editing that guideline while page banned)". Is anyone proposing to make that case? Those are the kinds of questions that I'm not seeing anyone propose.

ThuranX makes a good point. The problem is, if SA did breach an agreed page ban, then why didn't anyone else act first? Editing guidelines one is affected by, and page-banned from, is not trivial. It exists to prevent some unhelpful kinds of conduct so editors (including SA) could focus on productive content. If nobody else actually says "no" when issues persist, and takes the appropriate action, then the same admin often ends up picking up the baton. In theory Misplaced Pages has many admins willing to share such work, but in practice sometimes more need to do so. If you expect Elonka to let others handle matters, then others have to also be willing to take such things seriously too, and to take their share of the discomfort of drawing lines on conduct where appropriate. Worth thinking about.

(Elonka, anyone else - if you ever want someone to help on this, you can always ask at ANI: "I've been watching <X issue or user> for <Y> matters. In the interests of more eyeballs I'd like to step back a while. Can someone else take over watching for me so I can do so?" You can see what response it gets, and then judge for yourself.)

As to the other concern, SA will have no problem participating at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Cold fusion; blocked or unblocked, users always have ways to present their evidence there, and disruption to everyday editorial and project activities is more important than the ability to post directly (rather than by proxy) at RFAR. Not a problem, that'll be taken care of. FT2  10:07, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

• There are two standards to consider: 1/ what is allowed by "the rules" and 2/ what is best practice. If a user experiencing difficulties has expressed intense negative feelings towards an administrator, it is best practice for that administrator to give them as much space as they can. I feel the problem FT2 points out -- not many admins are willing to wade into difficult situations. I am currently at arbitration with SA, so I will not administrate anything with respect to them. Additionally, SA has accused me of harassment, so that's a second reason I will not block them. If I obseved problem editing by SA, it would take just a few minutes to harvest diffs and file a report on this board. That would resolve the problem with minimum opportunity for fusses. Last time Elonka blocked SA, SA retaliated with disruptive actions in multiple fora, ultimately leading to the arbitration case. For the sake of efficient administration of the project, can we please shoot for best practices rather than minimum standards? Thank you. Jehochman 18:42, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Elonka has definitely rowed with Science Apologist before, I think over edits to WP:FRINGE itself or the noticeboard, within recent weeks. I can't think of an admin that isn't more involved in criticising SA recently, blocking him or appearing to 'target' him for blocking, arbcom enforcement crusades etc. I can't think of anyone less neutral over him at this time. Having said that, it may not mean the block isn't correct arbcom enforcement; the pseudoscience arbcoms don't seem to have been enforced for some time, not that they are necessarily useful. Sticky Parkin 16:19, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Of course. However, I am not saying Elonka did wrong. I am saying that her involvement risked generating more heat than light (which in fact is what has happened, most regrettably), and that in such situations the best practice is to be a team player and pass the responsibility along to another administrator. (This is advice that I should have paid closer attention to myself on several past occasions.) By bringing the matter here, other admins have confirmed the block, and now SA has much less opportunity for wikilawyering. Jehochman 16:28, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Threats

ScienceApologist has just threatened to maim, poison and kill specific editors (including myself). Enough is enough. Will someone sack up and indef ban this editor once and for all? -- Levine2112 03:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I would if I were not involved in an arbitration case. Everybody hang on. It is being handled by somebody else. It will be dealt with quickly. Jehochman 03:32, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't dispute that this language is uncivil enough to merit a block, but please don't tell me that SA's post is being taken as a serious threat. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:40, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Same here. They're obvious references to those editor's area of interests, intended to be taken in jest. I'm amazed that he didn't menace homeopathy proponents with drowing them in destilated water. --Enric Naval (talk) 03:48, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

After he (or one of his mates) tried to get me to divulge my real name and home address earlier today , ScienceApologist then threatens to kill me. Yes, I am taking this very seriously. -- Levine2112 03:47, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Claiming to take those threats seriously doesn't pass the sniff test, Levine2112. If you want to claim they are blockably incivil, feel free, but claiming that they should be taken seriously is impossible to take as an assertion made in good faith.—Kww(talk) 04:01, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I am not concerned about blocking/banning him at this point. That should be a given. I am more concerned about my safety here. -- Levine2112 04:02, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Please stop being silly. This board is not a place for humor.—Kww(talk) 04:07, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

It is unacceptable to post threats, even in jest. I am OK with FT2's resolution, but in no way does that condone what SA posted or suggest that anyone else should ever post something like that. An indefinite block would have been fully justified, but FT2 decided to give SA another chance. That's a judgment call. Jehochman 04:08, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• Whether written in jest or not, making such a comment isn't particularly wise. Coupled with SA's most recent comment, I'm not left with a particularly warm-and-fuzzy feeling about this editor continuing here. His problems are well known, and if the decision was mine, he'd be shown the door...permanently. We all known that will not happen, but something should be done. - auburnpilot talk 04:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, FT2 seems to have resolved this particular matter, but there's nothing preventing anyone from giving evidence about SA's behavior at the Cold Fusion arbitration case. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:36, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I concur with the idea of an indef block at this point. These comments and edit summaries are not acceptable. If any new editor said these kinds of things, they would already be blocked, and their talkpage protected. Instead, this is like ineffective parenting: "Stop it." "No, I mean it, stop it." "Okay, that's it, last warning." "What did I just tell you?" "Stop it or you're really going to get it." "Oh come on, how many last warnings do I have to give you?" "Really, I mean it this time, you have to stop..." (etc) ScienceApologist's block log is already one of the most extensive logs I've ever seen, and even on his current 48-hour block, Checkuser seems to be confirming that ScienceApologist is just sending in blatant meatpuppets to edit war on his behalf. Eventually the time for second chances has to be done, and the community's patience exhausted. It's time to block indefinitely. --Elonka 04:45, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I dislike the notion that an editor can make a death threat, credible or otherwise, and then be allowed to continue editing absent any display of remorse. This type of behavior creates a chilling atmosphere, for the target as well as any one with whom the editor is in conflict. I'd like to see some sort of acknowledgment from this editor that a line was crossed before editing privileges are restored. Ronnotel (talk) 04:52, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

At this point SA is not a net benefit to the project. Indefinite block until/unless behavior and attitude improve, I would say. --John (talk) 04:54, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

not a net benefit to the project? You probably should be looking at what we are actually trying to do here at Misplaced Pages - here's a hint "Write an encyclopedia". The fact that editors get frustrated with Civil POV pushers and blow up is a symptom of Civil POV pushers, not with the editor who has just blown up. You all know this, you all discuss it endlessly, you all determine it's a problem, yet here we are - with yet another datapoint. Shot info (talk) 05:05, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

The comment was clearly uncivil but is obviously not a threat. The fact that he refers to putting fluoride in various editors water should make it clear that this is an extreme attempt at sarcasm. Any attempt to claim this was a threat is simply not credible. Moreover, when someone has repeatedly asked certain people to stay off the person's talk page don't be too surprised when they get upset that the people do not so. JoshuaZ (talk) 05:11, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Particularly when the instigator of this report (ie/ Levine2112) didn't just edit once or twice, but 23 times and 12 times in a row. Harrassment - so who exactly is doing it? Shot info (talk) 05:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

SA's comments were beyond the line and certainly could have justified a block. However, As Shot Info has pointed out, Levine2112's edits to SA's talk page, including this group of 12 straight edits, looks like an attempt to bait SA into an uncivil response. My sympathy for SA is pretty low at this point, but I can't say that Levine2112 deserves our sympathy either. If SA continues editing, it might be a good idea to prevent Levine2112 from making further posts to SA's talk page. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• If only my concerns near the top of this thread had been heeded, SA might not have come to such a low point. There need to be consequence for the folks who were baiting him on his own talk page while he was blocked. An editor cannot walk away from their own talk page so easily. We are in the right place, so let's discuss what those sanctions should be, and to whom they should be applied. Jehochman 05:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

To start the discussion, I think a lengthy block of Levine2112 would be good deterrence, per the evidence linked by Shot info and Akhilleus. Jehochman 05:44, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Part of me supports such a block but fears the punitive element. On the other hand, it would presumably deter Levine from trying to pull this stunt again. Maybe 1 week? Long enough to make clear that Levine's behavior was unacceptable but not so long as to make the matter punitive? JoshuaZ (talk) 05:47, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

What exactly would a block of Levine2112 accomplish? It looks to me like Levine2112 was properly collecting data as part of an SSP report. Granted, he probably should have put the information on an SSP page instead of ScienceApologist's talkpage, but he eventually figured that out, and started putting the information at SSP instead: Misplaced Pages:Suspected_sock_puppets/ScienceApologist (4th) (not bad, considering it's his first ever SSP report). I'm not seeing anything worth blocking him over. If anything, we should be encouraging him to help out with other SSP reports as well, since he seems to be showing some talent for it. --Elonka 05:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

What would you be blocking Levine for again? I'm not sure I saw it - I did see he was being pretty zealous toting up those IP edits, but which policy does that violate? Avruch 05:56, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the need for a block - but given that there is a case of poke...snarl...poke...snark+bite....POKE....IRIPYOURARMOFF, perhaps if the poker should just be encouraged to chill out? As for SSP, well Levine was proven rather incorrect in his accusation. So in fact his harrassment was just that - harrassment. Are we still all surprised that a harrassed editor kind of goes off when he/she is harrassed and admin(s) seem to be just standing around saying "nothing to see here...."? Shot info (talk) 06:06, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Avruch basically says it. But to be clear, I apologize for posting so many messages at SA's talkpage. I wasn't trying to harass him; I was just trying to be helpful and collect diffs of possible sock activity. Now that I understand the proper venue for this kind of data collection, I won't put it on a user talkpage anymore. Elonka is right. It was my first SSP filing, so I was hesitant about doing it. Funny enough, I was moments away from writing Jehochman for help setting the SSP up since I know that he has expertise in that arena; but then I figured out the issue (Adding the "4th" to the report). So again I apologize for the abundance of posts and I think my last post on ScienceApologist's page confirms that I was not trying to bait, but rather get all of the discussion off of his page and onto the proper venue. Sorry again. -- Levine2112 06:06, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

A week for deterrence sounds good to me. Levine2112's behavior was out of bounds and directly contributed to a serious disruption: SA got very upset, arbitrators were messaging each other back and forth, somebody called the police (like the NYPD has nothing better to do with their time), in short, real harm to real people. This was the predictable result from Levine2112's baiting. There needs to a consequence to deter repeats. Jehochman 06:12, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Isn't needless drama creation sufficient? His behaviour during this report alone has been a clear demonstration of lack of sound judgment combined with a strong desire to stir trouble. Pretending to treat that joke as a serious threat comes clearly under the umbrella of disruptive editing in my book. We do need to bear in mind that in the innumerable exaggerated and unreasonable reports of wrongdoing by SA that get dragged in here, Levine2112 is frequently involved. This whole quagmire is a result of behavioural failures on both sides. If the reporters had been blocked on most of those previous occasions, this situation would not be the horrible mess it is today.—Kww(talk) 06:13, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Levine2112 has posted above that he understands what he did wrong, and he has promised not to do it again. I can't see as a block would be at all helpful at this point. It's not preventative, because he's said he's not going to do it anymore. It's not coercive, because he's acknowledged the concerns and said he's not going to do it anymore. So why block? --Elonka 06:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

The "preposterous charade" comment below sums it up. We've been dragged to Arbcom hundreds of times over this kind of crap. Levine2112 explicitly denies bad motives ("I was not trying to bait"), which either means that he does not understand that what he did was wrong, or that he thinks he can pretend that he doesn't and get away with it. Block him for a month, block the next editor that drags us in here for a month, and keep doing it until this crap stops.—Kww(talk) 06:26, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Levine2112's preposterous charade above may make one's blood boil with contempt but ultimately it only served to demonstrate dishonest motives. There's no way a block is going to get support and it wouldn't achieve much anyway. I propose a 1 month ban from this page for using it in bad faith; if he needs to make a report, he can email it to an admin. CIreland (talk) 06:20, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

That approach may work. Additionally, Levine2112 should be banned from any further interaction with SA. Somebody cleverer than me may suggest proper wording. Jehochman 06:27, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Considering the heavy overlap in the areas in which they edit a ban on interaction will be quite difficult to construct. JoshuaZ (talk) 06:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure SA is going to be doing much editing in the near future. Can you folks figure out some sort of consequence. I am done here for the evening. Jehochman 06:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Definitely some sort of consequence for Leveine2112. A short block and a ban from this page and at least a stern warning about interaction with SA. dougweller (talk) 06:36, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

That sounds about right. I was going to propose something similar. Cardamon (talk) 07:05, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Agree with both Kww and CIreland, and Jehochman on general principle. The commentary on my talkpage was stretching my good faith; when Levine tried to get me to take action with the police via email with appeals to emotion, I realized I'd been taken advantage of by his dog and pony show. east718 // talk // email // 07:52, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) A topic ban for both of them (exact area to be discussed) and a restriction from editing each other's talk pages, anybody? --John (talk) 07:57, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I would agree with a topic ban and a restriction from editing each other's talk pages. Frankly, I don't see how this is a blockable offense, as it was not incivil or a personal attack, but Levine2112 collecting information for a SSP case. Granted that it should have been posted on the SSP page instead of cluttering SA's talk page, but this could have been handled far better on SA's end. I noted that FT2 has protected SA's talk page for the duration of the block, which was a good move; if the incivility and gross personal attacks continue post-block, then I move that SA be permanently blocked, pending further review of his actions and the outcome of the Cold Fusion ArbCom case. seicer | talk | contribs 14:49, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

To keep SA and MartinPhi apart we ended up having to write a community sanction keeping the two of them apart. It is here. Perhaps we should duplicate that restriction here, preferrably as an interim measure. For the long run, I think all the relevant evidence should be added to the current arbitration case. GRBerry 15:12, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Agree. I believe there is consensus support for that. Would you like to implement it, effective from now until the end of the case? (I am a party to the case so I should not do it myself.) Jehochman 15:15, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I voluntarily resigned as an administrator last month when someone asked me to run for ArbComm. It proved to me that I was spending too much time on the wrong sort of work. Obviously, my attempt to stay away from dispute resolution isn't working very well, but I'm not willing to pick the tools back up. And SA has as little belief in my impartiality as he does in Elonka's, wrongly in each case, so even if I had the tools it would not be a low drama step for me to implement. GRBerry 15:32, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I am clerking the Cold Fusion case, so I will not be commenting on the merits or lack thereof of the complainants and other ideas expressed, but I will note procedurally, that the complaint here is outside of arbitration enforcement, and the admins involved should consider a wider community involvement via WP:AN or WP:ANI--Tznkai (talk) 15:23, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, they seem to have been bickering within the realm of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. Is there any reason that discretionary sanctions remedy cannot be employed? Jehochman 15:26, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Upon examination - maybe, maybe not. I leave it to the administrators here whether this issue falls within "area of conflict (defined as articles which relate to pseudoscience, broadly interpreted)" or within more general policies.--Tznkai (talk) 15:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I am still in support of an indef block for ScienceApologist, since he has not responded to multiple warnings and other efforts to get him to modify his behavior. As for Levine2112, I'm still not entirely understanding what the current concern is. I agree that he was being somewhat disruptive, but he has stopped that behavior, and has acknowledged that he understands what he did wrong, and that he will not repeat. If there is other behavior from his side that is still being disruptive, we could potentially implement ArbCom sanctions, but we'd want to warn him first, and give him an opportunity to modify his own behavior so that sanctions are not necessary. That is the intent of the discretionary sanctions from Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience, that "Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision by an uninvolved administrator; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines.". Levine2112 definitely knows about the case, but I don't believe we've counseled him on what he needs to do differently. Now, if we do counsel him on what needs to change, and he does not change the behavior, then sanctions might be appropriate. But so far I'm not seeing anyone making specific suggestions other than "ban him". So again, what do we want to see him do differently? The way that sanctions are supposed to work, is that first we define, then we counsel, via a clear note on his talkpage, and then only if the counseling is ignored, should we proceed to a ban or block. --Elonka 18:00, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Elonka, would you be willing to issue the warning and provide the counseling? Jehochman 18:42, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that Levine2112 doesn't understand what behavior is problematic here, any more than SA doesn't understand what behavior is problematic. Both of them have been advised not to do various things, and they choose not to follow the advice. For Levine2112, what needs to change is that he needs to interact with SA as little as possible, and he needs not to post to SA's talk page, under any circumstances. But Levine2112 should have already known, long before yesterday, that posting sockpuppet accusations on SA's talk page would have no benefit for the encyclopedia, and was highly likely to lead to an angry post from SA and an ensuing drama fest. Does this justify SA's "threat"? No; both editors were acting foolishly. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Bingo. SA's frustration was not formed in a vacuum and the lashing-out was a predictable result of actions that were at best inappropriately inflammatory and aggressive. I find SA's various responses wholly and incontrovertably unacceptable for civil discourse, but Levine2112's hyperbole and hyperventilation regarding the "threat", and subsequent denial of any untoward motives strains credulity; if the situation was reversed (SA posting 23 messages on Levine2112's talk page, accusing, accurately or otherwise, Levine2112 of sock/meatpuppetry), the potential dramatic outcomes would still be obvious, and any plea of ignorance regarding those expectations would lack complete credibility. These two fight all the time, both constantly seeking to rid Misplaced Pages of the other.

So, what to do...? SA's voluntary wikibreak and the page protection serve functionally as a month-long block from editing (an arguably reasonable outcome). I say we hold him to that wikibreak: no block needed unless he comes back before the New Year. (Perhaps it would be reasonable to allow reversions of obvious vandalism, or content work in userspace? Dunno.) Furthermore, I think we strongly encourage Levine2112 to take a similar length wikibreak for his part in stirring up this hornet's nest. Finally, both Levine2112 and SA should be indefinitely banned from each other's talk pages and from directly pursuing administrative action against each other on this board and various ANs--if something is important enough to be considered for action, they'll have no problem finding a third party to broach the topic (this needn't be a prohibition on involvement in such discussions, rather a forced application of a 2nd opinion sanity check). These would have the benefits, if followed, of requiring no more admin button pressing for this event, allowing a cool-off period for everyone, and reducing the potential for future drama. — Scientizzle 20:11, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Something has got to be done here. SA's "threat" was obviously not a serious threat that he intended to carry out, but that doesn't make it ok. On an unrelated discussion, he falsely accused me of extortion via a protection racket (utterly fanciful nonsense), then refused to retract his obiously false libel. The run off at the mouth without consequences cycle needs to come to an end at some point. --B (talk) 19:37, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

While it's clear that ScienceApologist should be permanently banned for this edit, it's equally obvious that there will be no consensus here to do so: too many editors, even administrators, will insist that ScienceApologist's comments were all in good fun, and perfectly acceptable conduct. Therefore, the only available means by which to permanently remove ScienceApologist's editing privileges is to file a request for arbitration concerning him. Relevant prior cases include Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/ScienceApologist, and Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist. John254 20:43, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I share your frustration. We are too lenient with excusing or just plain ignoring bad behavior when it comes from productive editors. Until his attack on me, I was guilty of it too in this case. --B (talk) 21:09, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I have already filed a request for arbitration, and already requested a ban. See Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Cold fusion/Workshop#ScienceApologist banned. What a regrettable turn of events. Jehochman 21:21, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

In reply to John 254- I don't understand why we need another arbcom case, can't we just enforce the old ones, or don't they cover this sort of stuff ofvarious kinds, anything in this and the section above? Or do you mean Elonka has enforced with her action in the above section, then we need something done about this threats bit? Surely a block of some kind for the threats would suffice. Sticky Parkin 16:30, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Lighten up, Francis. rdfox 76 (talk) 02:45, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't even know if I'm allowed to comment here, but I just want to point out that there were plenty of people around to tell Levine2112 that he should make his comments elsewhere, if that was the case. I'm surprised, to say the least, that his actions are being so severely punished. Weren't some of the same people commenting here monitoring the discussion on SA's page? It seems like now in the wake of some unfortunate actions by SA, Levine2112 is being scape goated as the cause. If we had it to do over again, we would have suggested moving the discussion about sock puppets and such elsewhere. And SA could simply have said: "Take this discussion elsewhere." But I was as shocked as anyone, I suspect, by SA's outbursts, and I don't think it's reasonable to punish Levine2112 so substantially for a series of events that look bad in hindsight but that no one could have predicted at the time. Needless to say, I expect any future activities he has with respect to SA will be closely supervised.ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Notification: NPA block for cross-wiki abuse

This is a notification that I've gone a bit beyond our normal principle of sanctioning only on-site behaviour, by handing out a long NPA block for racist personal attacks made on a different wikipedia. This is about Raso mk (talk · contribs), who was repeatedly sanctioned for abuse under WP:ARBMAC earlier. The most recent attacks were made on his home mk-wiki here, they are directed against a named en-wiki contributor, in a thread titled "en-wiki", and they contain racist nationalist abuse coupled with personal insults about the victim's looks. I've had the text translated, it's pretty bad. Since this is a cross-wiki conflict situation where the same people have consistently been acting out the same set of disputes under the same identities across several projects, and the attack is clearly of a kind designed to make good-faith collaboration with the targeted person impossible on this wiki too, I don't see any sense in treating the different wikis as different worlds here in such a way that mk-wiki could act as a safe haven for this sort of unacceptable behaviour. I've blocked the main culprit, User:Raso mk, for six months, given the history of earlier en-wiki infractions, and the second guy, MacedonianBoy (talk · contribs) for two weeks (for allowing this to happen on his talk page, applauding Raso's abuse, and edging him on.)

In case somebody asks, yes, the cross-wiki identity of the editors across the different wikis is known beyond any doubt. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:07, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I've been reviewing Raso mk's (rather incoherent) unblock request. As I've already mentioned on his talk page, I think this block is questionable and should be undone. I have no reason to doubt that what Fut.Perf. says is factually true. But WP:BP states that blocking is intended to prevent damage to Misplaced Pages, which we have traditionally understood to mean this Misplaced Pages. Because nothing indicates that Raso mk was disrupting this Misplaced Pages at the time of his block, the block appears to be ill-founded. (Of course, I don't intend to excuse Raso mk's misbehaviour, if any, by this.)

If the block is not undone, I ask that the objectionable contributions please be reproduced and translated here.  Sandstein  23:15, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I foresaw these objections, that's why I made the notification here, but personally I stand by this block decision. This is, in fact, a block designed to prevent disruption on this Misplaced Pages, and as such conformant to our policies. The disruption lies in the fact that Raso with his off-site attacks has poisoned the well regarding collegial cooperation with the attacked contributors here. We cannot demand of the victims (User:TodorBozhinov and User:Laveol) to keep cooperating with this person on this wikipedia in light of these continued insults as if nothing had happened. We can also not demand of them that they should pretend the insults didn't happen or weren't relevant to them, merely because they formally happened in some other place. It's been my position for a long time that wherever Wikipedians meet and interact in their roles as wikipedians, with a focus on their activities and conflicts on Misplaced Pages, be it on other wikis, on IRC, in e-mail, or in face-to-face communication, whatever they say is relevant for their standing here and should be taken into account for disciplinary purposes just as if it was actually posted here. If there exists a policy against this, that policy is counterproductive and needs to be swept aside.

The requested translation (given to me by the attacked user in e-mail) is as follows: "I see you're having troubles with the ugly face from the English Misplaced Pages! You'd better stand aside as he obviously has a problem with himself. And it's not his fault, it's the Tatar syndrome they have. It's the same case with the "vegetable" . It is incomprehensible that in the 21st century one could live and have a brain like in the Middle Ages. Communism frustrated them and they're still suffering the consequences of the culture shock they lived through in the 90s. Their ancestors and their current southern neighbours said it well: kenef raya . What a Porca Misèria."

Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:44, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe the relevant prior case would be Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Jim62sch#Conduct_outside_Wikipedia:

A user's conduct outside of Misplaced Pages is generally not subject to Misplaced Pages policies or sanctions. This includes actions such as sending private e-mails or commenting on Misplaced Pages and its users in other forums.

I can see how a legal threat or outing on another site would be blockable, but from the translation provided, I do not think it rises to something blockable, particularly since it occurred on another wiki. Different wikis have different standards of conduct, just like IRC/WR/Skype has different standards of conduct. Also, I question the block as the translation of the material that is being used to support it, comes from the person requesting the block. I would expect a translation from a less-involved party if the material is the primary basis for the block. And the comment was made 5 days before the block was placed. Generally blocks are placed to prevent imminent harm. I do not see how incivility/personal attacks that stopped five days ago rise to the level of an block on another Wiki. I would support an unblock here, with the understanding that at the English Misplaced Pages, all users must abide by NPA and CIV. MBisanz 03:58, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

By quoting this, are you claiming the Macedonian Misplaced Pages is not a Misplaced Pages? I'll put it plain and simple: I don't edit the Macedonian Misplaced Pages, and the comments made there do not relate to my activity over on the Macedonian Misplaced Pages, but to my activity right here, on the English Misplaced Pages. They were posted on the Macedonian Misplaced Pages with the direct intention to get away with it. However, they are directed at an English Misplaced Pages contributor and have nothing to do with the Macedonian Misplaced Pages. This is an attempt at Misplaced Pages:Gaming the system, and we should be wary of Misplaced Pages:Wikilawyering. We must not forget about the spirit of the policies when applying them.

As for my translation, I stand by it and I did my best to translate the text as well as possible. I wouldn't mind if someone unrelated to these events produces another translation so that it can be verified that mine was correct. The text is still available so you're welcome. Todor→Bozhinov 14:30, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

There is a lot of history here. See this, this, this, also see both Raso mk's and MacedonianBoy's block log. This is textbook WP:HARASS and Misplaced Pages:NPA#Off-wiki_attacks. Also just some weeks ago User:Crossthets was indefbanned for less than this and there was no such fuss...--Avg (talk) 05:33, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that was proper, Crossthets committed harassment and personal attacks at the English Misplaced Pages and was banned from the English Misplaced Pages. If Raso mk's makes personal attacks at the English Misplaced Pages he will be handled according to the English Misplaced Pages's policies, if he makes them elsewhere, he will be handled by the policies of the other forum in which he made the attacks. MBisanz 05:55, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, FP, I don't think that's a good block. Blocking an editor here for misbehaving on another wiki is stepping squarely on a line I am fairly sure we don't want to cross. Except in cases of truly egregious behavior, we don't act on-wiki to things happening elsewhere; there is no damage to be prevented here. There's probably a good cause to bring this to the attention of the other wiki, however, or even perhaps at meta if the behavior is so bad it might justify a global block; but an unilateral blocking here is... icky. — Coren  19:18, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

"There is no damage to be prevented here"? Well, we evidently disagree over what the damage is that a preventative NPA block is meant to prevent. With NPA cases that are not just one-off attacks in the heat of anger on a personal level, but indicators of an entrenched stance of politically motivated ethnic hatred, what must be prevented is not, or not only, the danger that the victims might have to hear repetitions of the same kinds of insults uttered again. What needs to be prevented is them having to interact with the ethnic haters at all. If somebody has been persistently spreading racist hate speech, we don't want them to just shut up, we want them out, banished to a place where their victims no longer have to deal with them. We cannot demand of our good-faith contributors that they should continue interacting with these people and treating them as fellow Wikipedians, to be taken seriously and to be negotiated with. The very idea of having such people continuing to show their faces here would be a continuous source of very concrete damage, as it would dampen the spirit of good-will and cooperation among the other contributors.

I see I'm probably in a minority position here, so if others think there is a consensus against me, do what you must, but I'll strongly maintain my opinion about this issue. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:32, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't dispute the poisonous result of repeated personal attacks; someone who takes aggressive behavior elsewhere directed at our editors is a Bad Thing indeed. Now, if there was discussion of banning the editor as an egregious aggressor, then that outside behavior would rightly be used as evidence of bad faith and continuing misbehavior. The end result might be a ban, but then it would be because the editor, as a whole, was considered hopelessly disruptive and not because of an overt act on some other wiki. It might seem to be a fine line of distinction, but it is one I really feel we should not cross: enwp is the 800 pound gorilla; if we start enforcing our rules for behavior over behavior on other wikis, we place ourselves on shaky ethical ground. — Coren  19:47, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why we should be concerned about "enforcing our rules on other wikis". Do you mean "ethical" problem because it would be unfair over the mk-wiki community? But it's not as if we are trying to govern over them. I'm not proposing that we should tell the mk-wiki admins what to do about him there. I don't care if they block him over there (I doubt if they would, even if somebody raised the issue there; there seems generally to be a consensus at mk-wiki that it's quite okay to keep up a healthy national fighting spirit against the neighbours.) But if they are causing problems that affect us here, why shouldn't we do our bit in protecting our project from the effects? Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:58, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

To MBisanz: (1) the translation seems correct. I can read Macedonian just enough (with a help of an online dictionary) that I can verify it says what the translation says it says. If some nuance should not be rendered quite precisely, there are enough Macedonian users here who can correct it. Raso has not (as far as I can comprehend his unblock request babble) actually claimed the charge is wrong. (2) The insults have not "stopped" ("five days ago"), they are part of a campaign that has gone on for close to a year, including e-mails, postings here, postings there and all sorts of other things. (3) As for the "off-wiki" nature of the behaviour: I simply don't buy it. When we deal with personal attacks as "disruptive", it is never the attack in and of itself that is disruptive. It is the social effects caused by attacks that are disruptive. The attack was spoken over there and five days ago; its social effects are right here and now. These effects – the degrading of a collegial cooperation atmosphere - are tangible, very real, very present, very directly affect this project, and were very much calculated and intended as such. – You quoted the Arbcom there. Honestly, I don't give a damn what Arbcom thinks about this. I'm perfectly prepared to IAR the Arbcom here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:19, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Might I suggest moving this thread to WP:AN then, the Arbitration in the page title is a bit confusing to the topic being discussed. MBisanz 09:39, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

This looks like the right page for the thread, although I share misgivings about the block. As someone who is currently sysopped on three WMF projects I deal with cross wiki grudges from time to time. These things tend to get handled on an ad hoc basis. Allow me to articulate a few guideposts.

• Clean slate - Some Wikimedians extend a clean slate to users at each project, disregarding all behavior that didn't occur at that project. This has the advantage of giving editors who ran into trouble on one site the ability to start over and become valued contributors. Its disadvantage is vulnerability to deliberate gaming by individuals who exploit good faith to dodge blocks.
• Shorter leash - As an alternative to the 'clean slate' approach, this welcomes editors who've had rocky histories on other projects so long as the problematic behavior doesn't recur. If the problem reappears at the new project, the editor's prior conduct and block record at a sister project influences the administrative response. So an editor who was sitebanned for vandalism at one project may edit another so long as he or she doesn't vandalize. If they do vandalize, warnings and blocks would escalate at an accelerated rate. I prefer this approach to the clean slate.
• Grudges - Cross-wiki hounding is a matter of particular concern. Suppose Editor A has been blocked three times for personal attacks against Editor B at one project, and A goes to a second project to vandalize B's user page. That, in my view, is more serious than random vandalism because it creates and sustains a hostile environment for a particular contributor. Not all Wikimedians agree with that analysis, though.
• Porting - Where is the problem moving? Hypothetically, if Editor C has been blocked for two weeks for edit warring at Commons and starts edit warring at Wikinews, I may block C at Wikinews but I wouldn't automatically reblock them at Commons. As long as C doesn't resume edit warring at Commons they're welcome to contribute there. If edit warring does resume at Commons, though, it might be reasonable to weigh the recent problem at Wikinews--especially if the problem bears a direct relation (such as edit warring over an image that illustrates the Wikinews article).

So although this list has no formal status at all, it might be a better idea to unblock with a caution. That particular insult isn't at the level of threats or coercion which would normally merit separate remedy at this project. If Raso mk ports that behavior back to this site he'd face arbitration discretionary remedies. And the acting administrator might exercise discretion based upon cross-wiki pattern behavior. Hope that rationale makes sense to fellow editors; few guidelines exist in this realm. Durova 20:57, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I can understand the "clean slate" approach between pairs of projects such as enwiki vs commons, the point being that these projects typically involve different types of activities, people deal with different issues in each, so if two users meet again on commons after having had a conflict on enwiki, there's at least a chance they'll interact in different roles and on the basis of a different set of parameters. Not so here – the people involved are enacting a single set of disputes, all of the same nature and along the same national frontlines, across all the wikis in question. In fact, the recent attack on mk-wiki had nothing to do with mk-wiki at all, it was Raso-the-enwiki-editor speaking with MacedonianBoy-the-enwiki-editor about TodorBozhinov-the-enwiki-editor. "Clean slate" makes no sense at all there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:58, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Both you and I are 'shorter leash' proponents. Where we differ is porting. Durova 22:24, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay, but I don't see there's anything to "port" here, for the real focus of the issue has never moved from one project to the other at all in this case. Also, your hypothetical example, of edit-warring, is really not comparable. Ethnic hate speech poisons the atmosphere between editors and groups of editors, as human beings, in a far more lasting manner than edit-warring. If I have edit-warred with somebody on project A, that doesn't necessarily stop me from cooperating with them on project B, if the same dispute doesn't also arise there. But if I know that person thinks I and my whole nation are scum, there's simply no way I can move on and continue working with them on a different project (discussing articles about that very ethnic group!) as if nothing had happened. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:34, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

The rationale is the moment he carries that behavior back here to this project, then it becomes blockable here. In other words, we wait for him to repeat the behavior on this project. And the administrative response may consider the cross-project pattern when and if it ports back to this site. Makes sense? Durova 22:47, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid not. It doesn't answer my point. The damage is being done here and now, and we must prevent it from being continued here and now. (The damage being, as I said, his mere presence, not necessarily any further insults.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 01:21, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Their behaviour was here, on this project, they don't need to carry it back anywhere. I'm not an MK wiki editor and I have no intention to become one. The comments were posted on the MK wiki for one single reason, which I'm repeating once again: to get away with it; they have no effect on the MK wiki, they are aimed at an English Misplaced Pages contributor and affect the English Misplaced Pages only. And yes, to confirm what Future said, I won't be able to co-operate with these people on the English Misplaced Pages anymore. I don't want them around and I don't see why anybody would. Todor→Bozhinov 13:14, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

While I'm not defending Rašo's insults, Bozhinov has made it very clear that he "knows" that Macedonian (Rašo's language) is a dialect of Bulgarian (Bozhinov's language) and that Macedonians (Rašo's people) are Bulgarians (Bozhinov's people). This is all on en-wiki. So why should Rašo, or anyone else, be expected to cooperate, or dare I ask, be civil to someone who makes such statements? Poisoning the well only works if the well initially contains clean water. Here, it never did. BalkanFever 06:51, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Nah, divergent opinions about the Macedonian language and nationality are just that: opinions. Which Todor is entirely entitled to. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:08, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Opinions on the psychological state of Bulgarians? BalkanFever 08:03, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Isn't that itself a sanctionable ethnic attack? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 10:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Please spare me the misquotations and qualifications, Fever, your revelations about the "psychological state of Bulgarians" are extremely inappropriate right here. Don't let me remind you you were also involved in the abuse we're discussing here and asking you friends to continue insulting me by e-mail and not on talk wasn't exactly the one right thing to do. You deserve a thanks for not joining in though, I give you that. Todor→Bozhinov 21:57, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

User:Grandmaster

Grandmaster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Grandmaster is placed under supervision under AA2, the amended remedies gives the administrators the right to impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. Grandmaster was involved both in AA1 and AA2 and was already topic banned. Grandmaster has a history of distorting sources. He just did it again by totally ignoring thousands of words of discussion. Here 32 works have been provided to support that the accurate term was Tatar or Tartar. He reverted and claimed on the summary: Please do not distort the source while he was the one who distort the source.

The source Grandmaster added and even quoted it doesn't supports his edit. The initial version was between the Armenians and Caucasian Tartars (modern Azerbaijanis) throughout the Caucasus in 1905—1907. Not only does the initial version which was tempered by both Dacy69 and Grandmaster accurate, but it even clarified Tatars relation with modern Azerbaijanis and devoid of any different interpretation. Whats even more insulting is that the source he added basically says the same thing. Grandmasters edit amounts to replacing Dutch to German and then on parenthesis claiming they were refereed to as Dutch. I don't have the energy to fight on such minor things which should not cause any trouble for any reasonable editor, so what I expect is that an administrator explain Grandmaster once and for all why Romans are not called Italians, Dutch are not called Germans etc. It's so obvious that I can not suppose anymore that he does not know what he is doing. Several other users and I have attempted to explain this to him for months, in return we were always ignored. VartanM (talk) 20:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Grandmaster's misuses and distortions of the word Azerbaijani are not "minor things" because they are part of a larger campaign of POV warring that he and others are engaged it. That "Romans are not called Italians" example is worth exploring more to illustrate the reasons behind that POV warring. During the 1930s, the Mussolini regime would often produce propaganda equating being a true Italian with being a "Roman" of the "Roman Empire" in order to encourage or manipulate the Italian population into behaving in a particular way and to justify that behaviour to both themselves and the world. The regime of modern-day Azerbaijan is misusing the word "Azerbaijani" in a similar way - to invent or distort history and ethnicity for its own ends. Misplaced Pages should not be hijacked into propagating those inventions and distortions. Meowy 17:09, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I also think it isn't minor, Parishan has been extensively involved in this too. Meowy you'd be delighted (I'm being sarcastic) you have have not seen this, when Parishan attempted (and is still attempting) to introduce the Russian (then Soviet) school of thought, where to lay claim on Ottomans (and then Turkey) the Russians attempted to associate the Turks of Anatolia to 'Azerbaijani Turks' (a term they coined). He actually revert warred over this. Apparently in Anatolia the lingua franca was not Turkish but Azeri :) Note that Parishan's similar disruptions were partially documented in AA2 and ignored. After several instances of incivility, edit warring and POV pushing and formal warning, he still isn't restricted. - Fedayee (talk) 06:54, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

First, I'm not under any supervision. The parole I (along with other parties to the first AA case) was placed on more than 1 year ago expired. Despite that I agreed to voluntarily abide by 1RR rule and never ever violated it. So I don't understand, which rule I did violate? Did I make more than 1 rv? No. Did I fix the inaccuracy in the article? Yes, I did. The info that I added is supported by sources and is factually accurate. Azerbaijanis were called Tatars in the Russian empire, same as all other Turkic people, since Russian at the time did not make much distinction among them. So what's the problem? This is not a place to discuss content disputes, if you happen to disagree with other editors, seek dispute resolution, and don't ask the admins to ban your opponents to eliminate the opposition. It does not work that way. Also, I would like to ask the admins to put an end to constant personal attacks on me by Meowy. I'm really tired of constant bad faith assumptions and incivility by this user. This is the latest example, he says on talk of Shusha: I question Grandmaster's moral suitability to be editing articles This is the final version of his comment: , he removed some of his aggressive rhetoric, but it is still incivil and a personal attack. Grandmaster (talk) 11:54, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Grandmaster is not under those specific restrictions anymore. And yes, this is not the proper forum to discuss the misuse of the word "Azerbaijani" problem (though having Grandmaster point that out is rather like the kettle calling the pot black, because that editor has often placed spurious or off-topic complaints into this noticeboard). It is a content dispute, but one which affects dozens of articles, not just one or two, and concerns the meaning and use of a specific word. So using an article's talk page to confront the problem is not the longterm answer. Could an administrator suggest a more appropriate forum? Meowy 21:45, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I entirely agree with the comment made by Meowy which Grandmaster is quoting and I hope an administrator for once will take the time to read the comment above and decide whatever or not Grandmaster is being honest.

Grandmaster had no problem with the wording before April 24, 2007 before he decided to changed it. The slow revert war followed even with the Arbcom restrictions in place, and finally it was discussed that just as the title of the article the info in it was also accurate and reflected the title. The article was first named Armenian-Tatar, then was renamed without justification then renamed back to it's original name after it was shown that was what it was called by sources of the time and most of the modern ones. Parishan came out of nowhere and renamed it again, claiming there was no consensus etc...

Grandmaster's change from Tatar to Azerbeijani is OR, while he is partly right that they are mostly the same people, it was already provided and sourced that most nomadic people in the region (not only Turkic speaking) were tagged with the Turkic speaking people and called Tatar. And by changing Tatar to Azerbeijani Grandmaster is deliberately attempting to mislead those who read the article.

If the evidence of dishonesty isn't clear here, I invite administrators to check the edit summary he left when he asked me to stop distorting the source, while he was the one doing just that.

Lastly I would like you to note the sorry stub state the article was put by Grandmaster, thats despite the 30+ sources available in the talkpage. He has effectively stalled the progress of this article, just so he can push a certain POV. --VartanM (talk) 22:52, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Basically there's a group of users, who push the same Armenian POV that Azerbaijani people did not exist before 1930s. They try to push it here too, despite not being supported by a single reliable source. Those 30 sources VartanM refers to only name the hostilities after the name that was used in the Russian empire, but none of them says that those Tatars who lived in Caucasus were not the same people as modern day Azerbaijanis. On the contrary, we have the sources that say quite the opposite, and those sources are used in the article. By looking at the history of the article it is clear that the article was stable since October 27, until on November 27, one month later, VartanM came and reverted the article to the older version: Note that he never even tried to apply for any sort of dispute resolution, the sole purpose of his revert seems to be getting reverted and then report it here, claiming to ban those who happen to disagree with his POV edit from the article. This tactics previously worked on some other articles, which encourages such behavior. I hope the admins reviewing this report will take time to look into everyone's behavior. Grandmaster (talk) 06:57, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Did you just dismiss 30+ reliable neutral sources? And thats from someone who couldn't come up with one decent source to back-up his failed attempt at OR?. Your own source says exactly what was written in that article. VartanM (talk) 08:12, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Giano II, Giano II, Giano II is... (just kidding, I hope for once someone will read this and see how Grandmaster is being dishonest) Grandmaster claims that the majority position has no reliable source. Several were provided not limited to the title. And I'll provide here some of them. (Grandmaster's dishonesty can be exposed by the fact that he claims the majority position can not be backed by any reliable sources)

Azerbaijani national identity is a recent growth, following a period in the early twentieth century when Azeris identified themselves with other … (New Terror, New Wars, Paul Gilbert, Edinburgh University Press, 2003 p. 61)

Azerbaijan features an official national identity based on an improbable blend... In actuality there has been little historical basis for national identity formation among Azeri elites. ... (National Identity and Globalization, Douglas W. Blum, Cambridge University Press, (2007) p. 106 )

Azerbaijani national identity is a relatively recent formation: before World War I, the people of this territory were alternatively referred to as Turks, Tatars, and Caucasian Muslims. (Language Policy in the Soviet Union, Lenore A. Grenoble, Springer, 2003, p. 124)

In fact, the very name Azerbaijani was not widely used until the 1930s; before that, Azerbaijani intellectuals were unsure about whether they should call themselves Caucasian Turks, Muslims, Tatars, or something else. (Modern Hatreds, Stuart J. Kaufman, Cornell University Press, 2001, p.56)

It was already told to Grandmaster that all Tatars in the Caucasus were not all Turkic speaking. Two sources were provided to him: In 1897 'Tatars'-which officially included most Muslim groups... (Socialism in Georgian Colors: The European Road to Social Democracy, 1883-1917, Harvard University Press (2005) p. 19). Nomads, be it Kurds, Circassians were also counted as Tatars. Here is another from Britannica 1911, it says the same thing: The Tatars of the Caucasus seem to be for the most part Azerbaijan Turks mingled with Armenian, Georgian, Lesghian and other blood. But the name is often loosely applied to any Mahommedan Caucasian tribe. So definitely Azerbaijani does not exactly equal Tatar.

Grandmaster is also, as repeated countless numbers of times, very dishonest, the article was created by a Georgian user, with the Tatar term, (something which Grandmaster claims being an Armenian POV) and the usage of Tatar. Grandmaster was actually the first one to erase it and place it in parenthesis.

The purpose of Grandmaster's POV pushing is to name all of the Turkic people north of Araks river Azerbaijani, before there was any Azerbaijan north of the river. Dozens and dozens of sources were provided, and Grandmaster still distorts, twist and is being dishonest by answering as if there was some rational opposition between both parties. But we have yet to see anyone taking the time to read what the problem is, and how he's being dishonest. --VartanM (talk) 08:45, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

And in republic of Azerbaijan media, Armenia is sometimes called "occupied western Azerbaijan". But it's not just north of the Araks river - for the claim to remain logical Azerbaijan also extends the claim far into Turkish territory and says that all Turks living in eastern Turkey are actually "Azerbaijanis". Of course on an official level this isn't said much by Azerbaijan because it would anger Turkey. There was an editor who recently edited the Erzurum article to claim that Erzurum was an Azerbaijani city. Meowy 21:37, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

This is from the article about Azerbaijan from Britannica, written by Ronald Suny:

As social resentments festered, particularly in times of political uncertainty, ethnic and religious differences defined the battle lines; bloody clashes between Azerbaijanis and local Armenians took place in 1905 and 1918.

They were referred to as “Tatars” by the Russians; the ethnonym Azerbaijani (azarbayjanli) came into use in the prerevolutionary decades at first among urban nationalist intellectuals.

Another source:

Until the 1905-6 Armeno-Tatar (the Azeris were called Tatars by Russia) war, localism was the main tenet of cultural identity among Azeri intellectuals.

Willem van Schendel, Erik Jan Zürcher. Identity Politics in Central Asia and the Muslim World: Nationalism, Ethnicity and Labour in the Twentieth Century. I.B.Tauris, 2001. ISBN 1860642616, 9781860642616, p. 43

So the people in Transcaucasia, whom Russian called Tatars, were Azerbaijanis. It could be that they included other Muslims among them, but the majority of those people were Azerbaijani. That's what the sources say. Again, this is not a place to complain about content disputes, take it to dispute resolution, you never even attempted to get this issue resolved via DR, instead, you chose to ask the admins to ban those who happen to disagree with you. Grandmaster (talk) 05:50, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, I would like to ask the admins once again to put an end to personal attacks on me. VartanM says: Grandmaster still distorts, twist and is being dishonest. I wonder if WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL are still in force here? Civility supervision is a part of VartanM and Meowy's paroles, but they feel free to attack other users, and no one tells them to stop. Grandmaster (talk) 05:59, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

It is needless to add anything else, as again, Grandmaster is substituting decades of scholarship and publications for one quote from Britannica over and over again. When several times it was presented to him, that Adil Baguirov and his friends massively campaigned to have Sunys head out from Britannica. The same thing was attempted for Encarta. Britannica’s example shows more the way Adil Baguirov’s team threats results than actual scholarship. Besides Britannica is a tertiary source not secondary. For the rest, I’m not even going to waste my time, when obviously you are still attempting to distort by your second source which says Azeri and not Azerbaijani. You know that there was endless of discussions about this and you are still doing this as if it has never taken place. VartanM (talk) 06:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this particular noticeboard is the correct place to discuss this issue of the use and misuse of the word "Azerbaijani". The whole issue need to be carefully presented, needs to be discussed withthe aim of establishing a Misplaced Pages policy on its use, and should not based on a discussion about the actions of individual editors. Can administrators suggest an alternative venue for this to take place? Meowy 16:29, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree that Grandmaster along with Parishan really push this to the brink but you are right that a more permanent policy is required. Everytime this issue comes up I always ask, what did the Azeris/Tatars identify themselves as back then? Nothing. As for a venue that can come up with a settlelemnt, maybe an Armenian and Azeri wikipedians cooperation board?-- Ευπάτωρ 14:34, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Grandmaster has been violating Misplaced Pages's rules, both in letter and spirit, and should be suspended from editing articles related to Nagorno-Karabakh. He pushes POV and defies consensus-building measures. He uses dubious sources and resorts to frivolous reverts. Capasitor (talk) 02:26, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Scientology and related articles

Introduction

I have been informed that this is the proper area for this, so I am moving it from WP:AN/I to here. Please bear with me, as I have copied the current discussion there verbatim, to provide full context. --GoodDamon 18:48, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Shutterbug (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a long-term single-purpose account that edits solely at articles concerning Scientology, previously under the name User:COFS, which is an acronym for Church of Scientology. Shutterbug openly admits to one conflict-of-interest, to his/her benefit, as a Scientologist.

However, after a long period of inactivity, Shutterbug has begun editing in the Scientology article again, as well as several sub-articles. In the discussions that have followed, an old ArbCom case involving Shutterbug has been brought up. The ArbCom case ended with some minor temporary topic bans and blocks, but little else. Part of the reasoning that lead to this result was that Shutterbug (or COFS, at the time) claimed a particular Church of Scientology-owned IP address he/she had edited from, 205.227.165.244, including this accidental edit, was a proxy used by various hotels and such. Shutterbug recently reiterated the claim here. During the ArbCom, this claim was apparently given the benefit of the doubt, as a checkuser revealed that several similar single-purpose accounts had all edited from the same address and other Church-related address ranges. The users in question were:

• COFS
• CSI LA (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Misou (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Grrrilla (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Makoshack (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I haven't been able to figure out why this proxy claim was given credence, as I can't see any particular evidence one way or the other in the ArbCom, and the single-purpose editing definitely lends itself to an appearance of conflicts-of-interest, if not sockpuppetry and/or meatpuppetry. But until recently, I was happy to let the decision stand; I wasn't even involved in the ArbCom, and was inclined to defer to the administrators in that case.

I now think the decision was a mistake. This user, these accounts, and every IP address previously confirmed by checkuser as being associated with these accounts has been used overwhelmingly in Scientology-related edits and minimally in anything else. Were these IP addresses those of hotel proxies and the like, one would expect a host of non-Scientology related edits, but per these Wikiscanner results, there are few if any to be found.

Lacking any evidence to the contrary aside from Shutterbug's word, the bulk of the user's edits come from official Church of Scientology-owned machines, and the claim of an IP proxy used by "hundreds if not thousands" is implausible. Had these accounts and these IP addresses not edited so single-mindedly in Scientology-related articles, it would perhaps be more plausible, but as is, the evidence is pretty compelling that Shutterbug -- as well as the other accounts -- have conflicts-of interest affecting their abilities to edit neutrally, or at the very least the appearance thereof.

There is also an issue of incivility. In this edit, I decried the sudden battling over the article after months of calm, and accurately described a particular inappropriate edit performed by a different user. In response, Shutterbug said "Let's talk and no personal attacks, please." As I had not made one, and I didn't appreciate the accusation, I asked Shutterbug to retract it, and asked again on the user's talk page. The response speaks for itself.

Introductory discussion

My thoughts at this point, unless I've missed something that completely negates my COI concerns, is that Church of Scientology IP addresses simply shouldn't be used to edit Scientology-related articles, and accounts associated with those IP addresses should be topic-banned as probable WP:ROLE accounts. --GoodDamon 09:17, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I think a short-term topicban would illustrate whether or not this is an SPA. Ask the user to stay away from any content related to COS for a month, and see what they do. If they do it and contribute elsewhere, excellent. If not, obviously we are dealing with someone inserting biased info, and should be dealt with accordingly. Thoughts? //roux   09:33, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

My only problem with that is that if the user reads what you have just said, they have a clear way to 'prove' their innocence and continue however after. — neuro 10:50, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Good point.. so... how about an indef topicban from COS articles until a couple of admins (to be named) agree that this isn't an SPA, topic ban to be at least a month? //roux   14:50, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

See the ArbCom results I mentioned. This has already been tried. Shutterbug was topic-banned October 2nd, 2007 for one month. During that month, Shutterbug did not contribute to a single article. Shutterbug did, however, contribute to a few incident reports and checkusers associated with other users who edit in the same area of interest. So he/she was actively involved in the encyclopedia for that month, but not in any content capacity. --GoodDamon 15:07, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

New developments

This section is intended for providing new information to administrators above and beyond the initial introduction and related discussions. Anyone can add new developments here. I welcome comments, but for organizational purposes I ask that anyone commenting on new developments do so in a section dedicated to their own comments. Several, including myself, already have such sections.

Returning account User:Misou

As of December 5, 2008, Misou (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has returned to editing in Scientology articles. Misou has not edited since January 5th, and is listed in the original ArbCom as a confirmed sockpuppet, based on the supposed proxy address. This is not intended to comment on the quality of Misou's edits -- I actually agree with several of his/her deletions, as the sources in question were probably not reliable -- but simply to inform administrators that another possible sock who has long been dormant has come back. --GoodDamon 00:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Comments by previously involved parties

Comment by Justanother (Justallofthem)

As a party to the original arbitration, I think that is is appropriate that I comment here. As much as I respect GoodDamon, he seems to be trying to reopen an arbitration in the improper forum for such an effort. The arbitrators were well aware of Shutterbug's POV and history of editing from a CofS-owned proxy server and made no remedy that restricted her editing. If GoodDamon thinks that they did not make the correct decision then he should present his evidence to the arbitrators and ask that they reopen the case, not make his case here. The other point GoodDamon brings up in incivility. Incivility is a much-disputed issue but if Shutterbug was uncivil then perhaps she deserves a warning though I see little in the way of objectionable incivility in the diffs provided. However, I cannot stress enough that GoodDamon should move his doubts about the arb outcome to the arb page. --Justallofthem (talk) 15:53, 26 November 2008 (UTC) This is not relevant here as the main thrust of my comment was that GoodDamon bring his issue to this forum. --Justallofthem (talk) 19:48, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I do not believe the ArbCom is actually the correct forum anymore. When there is ample evidence of a serious WP:COI, and the only credible counter-argument -- upon which the ArbCom result was largely based -- turns out to be rather incredible, it ceases to be a content dispute, and content dispute resolution mechanisms are no longer the appropriate venue for dealing with it. Believe me, I thought long and hard about this, and coming to the decision to file this as an incident report was not easy. But this is the proper venue for it. Shutterbug and several older accounts edit from Church-owned IP addresses, and those addresses produce, almost without exception, content in Church-related articles. The proxy argument does not hold up, so we can only conclude that what we see with our eyes is in fact what's there, a conflict of interest.

Note I do not propose banning the accounts in question outright. But I seriously doubt they will choose to edit in other areas. They are well-established as single-purpose accounts. A single-purpose account editing with a conflict of interest is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages. --GoodDamon 16:27, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

As a party to the original arbitration, I think that is is appropriate that I comment here. I see little activity on the part of Shutterbug that is deserving of the attention of AE. I like and respect GoodDamon but the entire thrust of this thread is his IDONTLIKEIT evaluation of the findings and recommendations of the arbitration. He is not asking for enforcement, he is asking that the arbitration be redone. --Justallofthem (talk) 19:52, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

If you like. However, part of the original ArbCom was this statement of principle: "Editors who have duties, allegiances, or beliefs that prevent them from making a genuine, good-faith effort to edit from a neutral point of view in certain subject areas are expected to refrain from editing in those subject areas. Instead, they may make suggestions or propose content on the talk pages of affected articles."

I think it is now firmly established that the proxy argument is implausible and unlikely. I do not say this lightly: It is probably a lie. If the editor or editors behind the accounts and IP addresses in question are in fact "working" on behalf of the Church of Scientology, then it is a violation of this principle. And considering the ratio of edits to Scientology-related articles versus non-Scientology-related articles, this appears to be the case. Look... I understand how you feel, I really do. But once it came out how unlikely the proxy argument was to be true, this stopped being a content issue and started being an issue of Misplaced Pages abuse. --GoodDamon 20:16, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

There is no flaw in the "proxy argument" and nothing new has been "discovered". The consensus of the arb was, IMO, that those editors that had access to the proxy likely were connected in some way to the church and because of this the lot of them may be treated as one editor for the purpose of consensus building or 3RR issues, see Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS/Proposed decision#Multiple editors with a single voice and Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS/Proposed decision#Use of Church of Scientology-owned IPs. The solution of the arbitrators was to place the Scientology articles under article probation, not to impose sanctions against Shutterbug (COFS) or any of the others. You have not uncovered any new news GoodDamon, you simply seem to disagree with the findings and recommendations of the arb. That is your right but it is not an enforcement issue. --Justallofthem (talk) 20:28, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I stand by what I said concerning the proxy argument. The IP addresses in question simply have too few edits in areas unrelated to Scientology to plausibly be proxies associated with hundreds or thousands of users. The many-editors-one-voice decision does not preclude someone later taking a look and realizing the proxy argument is bogus. --GoodDamon 20:55, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't get your point. The "proxy argument" was simply in support of the claim that these editors were not sockpuppets or even meatpuppets; that they were simply different Scientologists in, often, different parts of the world that likely only knew one another through Misplaced Pages and were not part of some organized cabal of Scientologists. Obviously that cannot be proven one way or the other but the edit history and behavior is certainly consistent. Scientology critics do a much better job of coordinating editing here than Scientologists do, probably because only the critics are trying. --Justallofthem (talk) 21:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Justanother, please define who the "critics" you allude to are. Please show us facts that demonstrate there is coordination of their efforts on Misplaced Pages. If you cannot, then you are, at best, speculating. --Fahrenheit451 (talk) 01:08, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment by GoodDamon

At this point, I would like to take a step back and ask that previously uninvolved administrators look at the ArbCom and determine if continued involvement by these editors constitutes violation of the ArbCom ruling in light of what I perceive as the likelihood of Church of Scientology involvement. I would characterize the editor or editors as:

• Confirmed single-purpose accounts
• Confirmed biased accounts that edit from a particular POV
• Confirmed sockpuppets, based on the checkuser results during the ArbCom
• Most likely WP:ROLE accounts inappropriately working on behalf of the Church of Scientology

If these characterizations do not bear out, or if this is not the proper venue for this discussion, I will gladly accept that. --GoodDamon 20:55, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Jayen466

As per the arbcom decision, the Scientology article is on probation.

Looking at the edit war that led to article being protected I count the following reverts:

• Reverts by GoodDamon: 4RR

• Reverts by Shutterbug: 4RR

• Spidern and Cirt had two reverts each.

I believe GoodDamon and Shutterbug should be trout-slapped and told not to do it again. Since Shutterbug has done this sort of thing before, s/he should perhaps be restricted to just posting to the talk page for a week or so.

IMO, the whole edit war was a very silly and entirely unnecessary episode, largely caused by Shutterbug making sweeping changes without prior discussion on the talk page. All the more regrettable since at least some of the changes – chronological fixes etc. – would seem to have made sense and might well have gotten support on the talk page. Jayen466 22:09, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

In each of those cases, well-sourced material was removed or altered without prior discussion. If you feel restoring those edits violated the ArbCom ruling, I encourage you to open a case here for that as well. But I stand by those reverts; for some context, in this edit I restored citations to Time Magazine and a Salon news article that had been removed in this edit with an edit summary of "rm non-notable/opinion". If it is a violation of the ArbCom case to undo egregiously poor edits such as that, I will be very much surprised and will seek changes to the case itself, as frankly... that's just plain silly. --GoodDamon 22:56, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Clear and obvious vandalism is exempt from 3RR; "edits against consensus, and similar actions are not exempt". It's usually better to wait and let someone else revert it – which will demonstrate consensus – or raise it on the talk page and/or AN/I than revert someone 4 times in a row yourself. Jayen466 03:21, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

On closer inspection, I don't think those edits qualify as 4RR.

• The first edit occurred at the beginning of the brief edit war. I reverted the re-addition of several primary sources. To Shutterbug's credit, he/she didn't choose to reinsert the primary sources, and instead went with just a secondary source. I did not contest it.
• The second and third edits were unrelated to the first and involved a section of the lead. I did reach 2RR here, and perhaps should have waited for someone else to revert, but felt it would be a good point to remind Shutterbug of WP:BRD.
• The fourth edit was unrelated to any of the others, and you already know about that one.

In any event, I've voluntarily extracted myself from the article until all this is resolved. --GoodDamon 05:08, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Jayen466 11:08, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I stand corrected. I had forgotten about that particular clause. I'll be more mindful of it in the future, and appreciate you pointing it out to me. --GoodDamon 15:26, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Shutterbug

Why did I not just get rid of my user name and started editing with another one, if it am such a red flag? That's rather stupid, isn't it? I did not because the truth is that the 205.227.165.244 IP is/was a proxy used by hundreds if not thousands of people. As I said before and there is no evidence saying otherwise: I occasionally used it when being in a Church of Scientology facility, waiting for someone etc. Further, the diversity of the subjects being edited from that IP between 2004 and 2006 underlines that there have been more than one editors on this IP (wikiscanner). I was not prepared for the amount of hostility I am being subjected with now and I wasn't a year ago when I got surprised with an avalanche of accusations that had nothing to do with real life. Ok, the Arbcom determined there have been several other people editing under the same IP. I think that was a true finding with no significance especially as I even volunteered this information as much as I could. As an additional note: Cirt is a known and longterm anti-scientology editor who went by the user names of Smeelgova, Smee and WilhelmvonSavage. Per her edit history she works 8-11 hours per day on Wikiprojects, almost exclusively working on anti-religious subjects and its peripheral subjects (like the names of Scientology members, anti-religious books and the like). Though I welcome the work and information she provides I don't think she should be included in this "neutral" discussion. Lastly it is an old trick on Misplaced Pages to attack the editor with administrative rules instead of concentrating on making better articles. I have been subject to this abuse of Misplaced Pages policy before and seems to happen again. Result: dozens of text pages filled with discussions, zero articles improved. Maybe there is some kind of protection against "using Misplaced Pages policy to shut up opposing editors"? Shutterbug (talk) 22:39, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

There is some truth to what Shutterbug is saying. No one complained about the edit war, which was the work of several editors, the complaint was about who Shutterbug is. I'd be just as happy packing this up and getting back to doing something useful, like discussing how we can improve the article. Jayen466 22:52, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Even if it turns out I'm a complete goober for opening this, and I get that trout-slapping you mentioned, I would rather see this come to its natural conclusion than close it prematurely. If I'm wrong, I want to know I'm wrong. At the moment, I am voluntarily recusing myself from editing or commenting in any Scientology-related article until administrators have finished reviewing this and make some sort of pronouncement. I really don't think much in the way of article improvement will happen until then. --GoodDamon 23:17, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Just checking into the edit history of the celebrity centre, I would like to ask Cirt to consider that edit summaries like this one and this one may come across as dehumanising or baiting, and at any rate may not be conducive towards establishing a more collaborative atmosphere. Shutterbug's deletion in Celebrity Centre had some justification under WP:NOT#NEWS; at the very least, it is an issue that editors could in good faith disagree on, and it would have been kinder to reflect that in the edit summary. Jayen466 23:21, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Please explain how you believe that WP:NOT#NEWS was relevant to that deletion. DigitalC (talk) 01:38, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Just because something was in the news does not mean it is encyclopedically relevant to the article topic. Imagine a printed encyclopedia: Would they be likely to mention this? Would a scholar in a book? I think WP often goes too far in the tabloid direction. We're citing celebrity gossip mags ... WP is not supposed to be a tabloid newspaper. I guess I am a more stuffy person. Must be the age. Cheers, Jayen466 02:10, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that it is undue weight to mention this. The difference between a printed encyclopedia and WP is the amount of detail on EVERY subject. I do think that if a book was to be published on the topic of the celebrity center, within the next few years, that yes it would mention this. I still don't see how you feel WP:NOT#NEWS applies, as it is really talking about whether something is suitable for an article topic, not the amount of weight to apply to material sourced from news reports. I don't feel it is appropriate to misrepresent WP:NOT#NEWS as a justification for completely deleting sourced content. DigitalC (talk) 04:22, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Sadly, this is basically what I expected. There is no evidence that this IP address is or was a proxy shared by "hundreds if not thousands of people." That's more or less what this report is about. Due to the nature of its edits, and the edits of logged in users on that address, the chances that "hundreds if not thousands of people" would edit Misplaced Pages solely to add pro-Scientology material to it is vanishingly small. --GoodDamon 23:24, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

GoodDamon, I think you have a misunderstanding. The IP address belongs to the proxy server that a large number of Scientology organizations worldwide use to access the internet. The ""hundreds if not thousands of people" are using that proxy server to do the myriad of things that people do on the internet. Only a few are editing Misplaced Pages. I have a totally analogous situation in my life. Occasionally I edit from work. There are prolly well over 9,000 people that access the internet through my work proxy. Yet only a few edit Misplaced Pages at all as far as I can tell from the edits coming from that IP address. So if I say that thousands of people use the IP address does the fact that only a few edit here prove me a liar? Does that clear things up? You should really AGF a bit more and lighten up on Shutterbug. She does not deny having a POV. Let me tell you, these articles are pretty galling to anyone that has any knowledge of Scientology beyond spoon-fed criticism. Galling in that they are just plain wrong in many instances. All the bad is blown out of proportion, all the good is minimized and distorted. Critics race to include the latest bit of negative material but don't bother to include the positive. How many are racing to include recent statements by Germany's minister of security that he found no evidence that any of the objectionable material in Hubbard's writing is practiced in Scientology? Yet our critics love to fill articles with their original research based on primary materials. They scream when the primary material explains Scientology as a philosophy in manner that can be understood yet support out-of-context primary materials that cast Scientology in a bad light. You can see that disparity in these two articles that I just put up for AFD, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Homosexuality and Scientology and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Scientology and sex (2nd nomination). Shutterbug's perspective is welcome here. Feel free to haul her back if she crosses a line. --Justallofthem (talk) 00:22, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

A few words here. Justallofthem's assertions about proxies are unsupported by the Committee's findings. Several parts of the decision reject his claims:

• Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/COFS#Responsibility_of_organizations
• Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/COFS#Multiple_editors_with_a_single_voice
• Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/COFS#Use_of_Church_of_Scientology-owned_IPs
• Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/COFS#Recruiting

For months I counseled Justanother in good faith that the 'proxy' argument he was attempting to advance did not serve the best interests of his faith. No evidence was forthcoming from the organization's IT staff to bolster the claim. Then while the arbitration case was underway the Wikiscanner came out and the weakness of the 'proxy' argument got demonstrated empirically in the form of real world news coverage about Scientology-based IP edits to Misplaced Pages. That news reflected more poorly for that religion than whatever PR problem they were trying to correct. And also, people who actively disliked that religion made the most of the negative press.

It was my hope when that case concluded that Justanother, Shutterbug, and other editors would learn from their mistakes and turn over a new leaf. Only one really did: he now edits as Cirt. Cirt has contributed 11 featured articles, 13 featured portals, 31 good articles, and 47 DYK entries. He has become an administrator on three WMF projects including this one, has become an OTRS volunteer, and was elected a member of the Arbitration Committee on Wikinews. It is my earnest wish that editors from both sides of the dispute would make a similar turnaround. (Heck, I'd love to see that turnaround in any dispute). If any Scientologist adjusts to WMF standards that well it would give me pride to nominate them for adminship.

So in the holiday spirit (since it's reasonable to guess most of the editors associated with this thread are American?) let's give thanks for the progress that's happened so far and put this discussion on hold through the holiday weekend. Requesting as a courtesy: please suspend discussion. I'll be around off and on (working on a ragtime composer biography--something much more to my taste than this subject). Best wishes all and happy Thanksgiving. Durova 00:07, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Durova, I think you are confused. I am not one of the editors affected by the IP issue. I would be interested to know exactly what you find unconvincing in the explanation and personal analogy I give above of why Shutterbug's "proxy argument" makes sense because you are being kinda vague. --Justallofthem (talk) 00:29, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Not at all confused; I knew from the start that you weren't covered directly by that particular IP issue. Yet you advanced the proxy rationale then and you continue to now. That you do so is more than a little surprising since it generates such a substantial PR exposure to your religion. This site has many uninvolved volunteers who would be glad to address POV attacks against any religion. Perhaps because yours comes under attack more than most, it may have been hard to accept that feedback. Neither Misplaced Pages nor Scientology benefitted from the press that the Wikiscanner brought, yet you have to agree that my cautions were absolutely on target a year and a half ago. Now I'm counseling you that you're running a similar risk again. We were lucky the COFS arbitration case didn't get noticed then. The case is old news, but your actions and Shutterbug's could make it relevant again. Suppose for a moment that this advice is clueful and sincere: it's been right before, and it's been right in ways that would have helped you if you had listened. Durova 00:57, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I do not think I am advancing the argument you believe I am. Please reread my explanations and comments to GoodDamon. I personally have no exposure here, I just don't want to see Shutterbug railroaded by out-of-process actions or misreadings of the results of the previous action. If the arbitrators want to reopen the COFS case that is fine with me but I see little need to. Enjoy your turkey-day, Durova.--Justallofthem (talk) 02:41, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

If you still suppose I'm addressing any personal exposure on your part in relation to the IP server issue, then you've missed the point. Best wishes and happy holidays. Durova 02:50, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

No, I take it that you are warning that abuse by Church-connected editors will reflect badly on the Church. First off, that is no concern of mine. Meaning that it not my business what the Church does or does not do and how it reflects on them. I hope and expect that the Church acts honorably and if not then that is on them. I just do the best I can for my part and as an individual Scientologist. Secondly and more germane, Shutterbug has stated that she has no official PR capacity in the Church and that her edits are her own. She edits from her POV but so what. So does just about everyone else that edits in the Scientology articles. Anyway, there is little point in going back and forth further on this. Take care. --Justallofthem (talk) 03:02, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Another note, Durova: Did the Arbcom try to find out from the Church of Scientology what this IP address is? Did you or anyone involved that time care to ask this question to anyone? I can't remember that. Instead assumptions and outright lies are being repeated over and over again. This is really frustrating. Shutterbug (talk) 00:33, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Very glad I took the holiday off before returning. It's quite simple, really. A year and a half ago I was trying to protect both you and Misplaced Pages from negative press. You didn't take the advice and a lot of bad press really happened. Now you're repeating most of the same mistakes that created that problem in the first place. It certainly won't be my doing if this makes news again. I hope you take the advice on board and reform. If you don't, I hope this board saves you from yourselves.

It's more than a little bit comical: there are better solutions to the meritorious part of your concerns, but you reject feedback and fail to adjust. It's as if you treat all dispute resolution with extreme myopia, regard anyone whose response amounts to 'no' as an opponent, and try to win as many short-term interactions as possible regardless of the ultimate consequences. ArbCom didn't accept your 'proxy' rationale but in the larger picture that's irrelevant: neither the press nor the public accepted it. You say you're worried about hostile critics as you set yourselves up again for the very same fall.

Best wishes; by cautioning you again my conscience is clear. Durova 22:52, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I am always cautious if someone talks about "press and the public". I could not find any press or documentation of "public opinion" about Shutterbug. Could you elaborate, please? Shrampes (talk) 00:35, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Initial topic ban proposal and arguments

• Support. Comment: The topic ban proposal as suggested by Roux (talk · contribs). Cirt (talk) 16:14, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

• Cirt, as an anti-Scientologist with a long history of highly POV edits under your current and previous accounts, don't you think that you would be doing yourself as an admin and the project a service by recusing yourself here instead of leading the charge? (see Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Cirt for material relevant to my point)--Justallofthem (talk) 17:32, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Please define "anti-scientologist" and provide us with evidence that Cirt conforms to that definition. Justanother, are you edits ever POV?--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 01:20, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• Support Comment - Assuming it is an indef, and applies to the other similar accounts. This is basically the standard response when evidence of an unresolvable COI exists. --GoodDamon 16:58, 26 November 2008 (UTC) (Edit - Striking my !vote per Cirt's recommendations below. I brought up this whole issue, but will gladly defer to uninvolved administrator intervention, whatsoever that intervention may be.) --GoodDamon 21:54, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose - this has already been addressed at a higher forum than this one. If GoodDamon does not like the arbitrators' work then he needs to take that up with them, not here. --Justallofthem (talk) 17:32, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

As ye wish, so shall ye receive. I've moved this here, per Durova's statement on the matter. --GoodDamon 19:29, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose – I don't see any evidence of incivility on the talk page and in principle support this user's right to edit Scientology topics, just as Jewish Wikipedians are entitled to edit the article on Israel, muslims are entitled to edit the article on 9/11, etc. However, I would support a warning that the user should refrain from edit wars and seek consensus through the talk page. Jayen466 17:38, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't misunderstand, I fully agree with you in principle. Denying Christians the right to edit at articles like Christianity would be absurd. But those aren't good analogies. A better analogy would be if computers owned by the Vatican were used solely to produce edits favorable to Catholicism in Misplaced Pages. That would be inappropriate. --GoodDamon 19:29, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

But her edits feel like the actions of an individual to me. I would have no problem with someone in the Vatican administration making an occasional Misplaced Pages edit from their desk in Rome. The Wikiscanner evidence that Cirt posted on Talk:Scientology showed 122 edits from that IP, made across 15 wiki projects during the period 2004–2007. Even if all of those were attributable to Shutterbug (talk · contribs), that is less than one edit per week, and on the face of it, a storm in a teacup. Jayen466 20:50, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Please see the ArbCom ruling. Those were by no means the only edits from that IP address that Shutterbug performed. They were simply the ones he/she performed while logged out. And you'll note that the logged out edits almost all pertain to Scientology. --GoodDamon 20:57, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Adding the logged-in edits, Shutterbug has made around 1750 edits to various Scientology-related articles over a period of about 2 years then, the vast majority of them prior to the September 2007 arbcom. That's really not frenetic activity since the arbcom, comparatively speaking. These are the remedies from the arbcom case. Apart from edit-warring, which you were guilty of as well, which one has Shutterbug violated? Jayen466 22:22, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Support - I personaly have no problem with Scientologists I however am upset with Shutterbug's Deletion of my material under Celebrity Centre, The suggestion that my material was "not Notable" as in Shutterbug's words is absurd (on the google search of Scientology it came up on top). I also dislike him of her deleting things regaurding Scientology's Xenu story which is backed up by many sources including the freezone. I doubt this ban will keep the Proxyer of Shutterbug from editing however I suggest Shutterbug edit his or her other interests, I harbour no ill will to Scientologists but I will not stand Idle as the "truth" is rewritten. --Zaharous (talk) 22:54, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I moved it to the talk page because at the time it was a news item still in progress (it still is and clearly not covered by WP:NOT. You are taking revenge here - thanks for being open about it - while Cirt is reverting edits solely on the grounds of "COI" (which is not even a Misplaced Pages policy), not on the grounds of content. Interesting. Shutterbug (talk) 23:05, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, WP:COI is a behavioral guideline. --GoodDamon 23:11, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

As opposed to Misplaced Pages policy WP:LOP. Shutterbug (talk) 23:24, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I would not call it revenge you have just done some deleting on Scientology topics in general, You are probably a good person I just don't like your deletions I just like a whole Misplaced Pages not a half one. Although your edits are in good nature, I think. --Zaharous (talk) 00:05, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Glad you came here not to act in revenge for an edit dispute. So you think my edits are in good faith but you support to kick me out of Misplaced Pages? I don't get it, please explain. Shutterbug (talk) 00:41, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

For the record: No one has proposed you "kick out of Misplaced Pages." What has been proposed is a topic ban for editors who appear to edit on behalf of the Church of Scientology. If that equates to being kicked out of Misplaced Pages for you, then that is frankly rather indicative of the problem. --GoodDamon 15:24, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

• I'll support a topic ban. This person's editing shows a clear and persistent failure to strive for neutrality. It is quite obviously focused on systematically minimizing information embarrassing to their organisation. This, the tendentiousness, and not any incivility or edit-warring, is the primary act of disruption here. Tendentiousness is always the root cause of these kinds of problems; incivility and edit-warring are only the symptoms. The causes are what needs to be sanctioned. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:47, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose - The fact that the Scientology page is lock from editing until disputes have been resolved demostrates that there are serious discrepancies. During this month large chunks of data have been deleted from the page. Something that is alarming to some editors like myself. The issue of edit-warring is being addressed right now on the page. It takes two to have a fight or edit-warring, I don't see the other party being questioned here when those edits are equaly or far more alarming. Being Scientology a crontroversial issue some edit-warring is expected. I don't see Shutterbug edits being done in bad faith, is just another point of view. Removing this point of view will reflect negatively on the page. Bravehartbear (talk) 23:36, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from, Bravehartbear, but this report really isn't about the edit war. I saw evidence that I personally was never a witness to before that indicated Shutterbug and several other accounts are editing on behalf of the Church of Scientology. This is unethical, antithetical to Misplaced Pages's own policies and guidelines, and completely inappropriate. WP:ROLE accounts are not allowed. No editor in good standing should be expected to edit in such an environment. Imagine for a moment that computers belonging to the Vatican were allowed to continuously edit on behalf of Catholicism, and remove all unflattering material from the encyclopedia about that particular belief system; no editors would stand for that.

On the matter of the edit war, I believe it started largely from misunderstandings. The article needs to formally become a summary style article, because the topic of Scientology is simply too big to fit in one article. The natural first choice for trimming in preparation for doing that is the removal of WP:PRIMARY sources, which if you'll consult the editing history, were exactly what was being removed. Eventually, I'm sure good secondary sources for a lot of that content could go into the beliefs and practices article, but there are simply too many sub-topics to make the beliefs and practices of the belief system more than one subsection of the main article. You've got organizational history, controversies, hidden doctrines, notable members, and so on. There isn't room to do any one of them complete justice on the main article, so each should be summarized. This was an ongoing process when Shutterbug and Su-Jada returned to the article. --GoodDamon 00:44, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

GoodDamon, this is not about WP:ROLE and never has been. Please do not exaggerate the situation so as to worsen it. Again, all you are saying is that you have become aware of the facts and issues of the arbitration and do not agree with the findings and recommendations. Justallofthem (talk) 01:36, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

No what I think GoodDamon is trying to say is that a single purpose account is a great insult to neutrality and sadly I have seen only about ten edits from Shutterbug that are not related to Scientology, Single Purpose accounts greatly compromise the neutrality of an article. --Zaharous (talk) 04:45, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Not quite. There's nothing inherently wrong with a single-purpose account as long as it can keep its biases in check. On some articles, such as those involving esoteric sciences, most of the accounts editing there are technically single-purpose accounts, in that they're editing in a narrow range of articles that reflect their interests. The problems arise when you combine SPAs with bias, and evidence that they're editing on behalf of a particular entity or organization.

Now in answer to Justanother... This really is about WP:ROLE. The proxy argument, which seemed to have some traction in the ArbCom, and was likely at least partially responsible for those findings and recommendations, has fallen apart -- no, don't try to defend it again, it doesn't even pass the sniff test anymore. So what we're left with is pretty straightforward: A series of accounts editing from the Church of Scientology's network on behalf of the Church of Scientology. It's so cut and dry it astonishes me that there's even any further argument on this. It's against Misplaced Pages's policies, and it's just plain unethical. --GoodDamon 05:19, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

The current state of the proxy account debate is this. It seems to me the assertions about why the IP could not be an address used by a greater number of people were simply based on fantasy and wishful thinking – I am not convinced by what I have read so far. And where do you see a "series of accounts editing from the Church of Scientology's network on behalf of the Church of Scientology"? Which accounts are these? Have any of them edited recently? Shutterbug was advised in the arbcom not to recruit RL friends to help her edit the WP article in line with her POV. Where is the evidence that there has been a recurrence of such behaviour now? And while we are talking about SPAs, I am hard-pushed to find any edit by AndroidCat (talk · contribs), for example, that does not relate to Scientology. Yet I do not see anyone raising that as a problem. To be clear, while my opinions may be different from AndroidCat's, I have no problem with his contributions: but there is a double standard at work here if Shutterbug gets clobbered for being an SPA, and SPAs on the opposite side of the debate do not receive any such criticism. Jayen466 10:14, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Since user Jayen has seen fit to drag me into this, please study my editing record over the last few years. Study my history of reprimands for edit-warring, and any proof that I am editing as a sock-puppet or meat-puppet for an organization with COI problems. Check the number of time that I have been caught editing with a block of other identities from the same IP address with a lame excuse about a mythical proxy network. There, that didn't take very long, did it? Unlike some other editors, I don't have unlimited time to spend editing Misplaced Pages, and so I do concentrate in areas where I can provide hard cited facts. And I would like an apology. AndroidCat (talk) 08:12, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Apology gladly given. No offence was intended. Jayen466 11:41, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

In this regard, note that off-site canvassing seems to be a known and ongoing problem on the Scientology opponents' side. Jayen466 11:19, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I just don't buy that argument. You have demonstrated that it's theoretically possible for the Church of Scientology's proxy used in hundreds of hotels to resemble AOL's old proxy system, and for seemingly thousands of users to have restricted their Misplaced Pages edits through that proxy to nearly 100% pro-Scientology behavior. There is no evidence for this, but it has the distinct advantage of being difficult to outright disprove. But the same logic could be applied to any sockpuppet discovered by checkuser; "Hey, we can't block Spammer663 as a sockpuppet of Spammer662 because he might be using a poorly designed proxy similar to the way AOL used to connect users to the Internet!" Sorry, no. --GoodDamon 19:00, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

But where is the alleged "series of accounts" editing these articles, now, after the arbcom decision? Jayen466 00:02, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Shutterbug, who used to be COFS, is currently editing. Do you accept at this point that the proxy argument is almost certainly proven to be untrue now? If so, then any account that edited from the known Church of Scientology IP addresses -- and edited strictly in favor of Scientology, instead of in other areas of interest such as photography -- is or was doing so from Church of Scientology property, and thus almost certainly was doing so on behalf of the Church. That is improper behavior. Accounts that exist solely to cast a favorable light on Scientology on behalf of the belief system's largest organized membership are not permitted, per WP:ROLE, any more than accounts run by paid Microsoft employees would be permissible in that article. And please bear in mind that even so, I am not proposing a ban from Misplaced Pages. I am proposing, very specifically, a topic ban. --GoodDamon 02:54, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Shutterbug is not a "series of accounts", and no one appears to be asserting that s/he has violated remedies 2 and 4 related to the inappropriate behaviour that arbcom found occurred at the time. All the Checkuser evidence posted by Spidern below was available to arbcom then. They came to their findings and remedies. I agree that Shutterbug should not have engaged in an edit-war (remedy 7), but as far as I am concerned, that is all s/he has to answer for. Jayen466 17:48, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

• Comment Let the records show that it was found that there was indeed overlapping ip address usage belonging to a specific group of editors appearing to have a conflict of interest, who acted towards pushing a particular pov. Since those findings were announced, the pov-pushing (, , , , , , , , , ), assumption of bad faith, (, , ), and removal of reliable sources (, , ) has continued. ←Spidern→ 07:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

1. The 1st of your examples is POV pushing, fine.
2. The 2nd edit I might have agreed with.
3. The third is POV, but debatable.
4. The fourth I would have agreed with: I would consider it POV pushing to include the information concerned in such a short lede. (Note that the information was moved to the main part of the article, not deleted.)
5. The fifth edit seems to have been a change in the order of paragraphs. How is it POV-pushing?
6. The sixth edit is sourced. It leans towards POV pushing, but is also a reaction to the other side's insistence on including this specific material in the lede.
7. The seventh edit kind of makes sense, given that this is the article on Scientology, i.e. a religion or ideology, and not an organizaton.
8. The eigth edit, while not ideal, tries to correct an existing imbalance. (Many courts and governments have taken a different view than the one described.)
9. The ninth edit, again, while not ideal, tries to correct an existing imbalance.
10. The tenth edit claims portfolio.com is a blog. While it looks like one, it isn't: Condé Nast Portfolio. The edit was inappropriate.

As for the assumption of good or bad faith, I think both sides could profitably make efforts in this respect. I have also looked at your examples where you say reliably sourced information was removed:

1. Concerning the first example of "removal of reliable sources", first off, part of the material was unsourced. As for the part that was sourced, I am reminded of your comment the other day at RS/N: "Does the US army specialize in studying NRMs? Quoted directly from WP:RS: "Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." This was concerning a publication by the U.S. Army Chaplain's Office, which I believe would be far better qualified to pronounce on theological issues than a couple of LA Times staff writers. Yet while you want to disallow the US Army Manual, here you argue that the LA Times is a reliable source for theological questions and should not have been removed. Scholarly sources discussing space opera are available, I posted one of them on the talk page the other day. Not one of them is used at the moment, none ever has been used in the article as far as I know.
2. As for your second example, I agree with the edit, or at least I agree that there was and is a situation that needs addressing. I made a related proposal on the talk page the other day.
3. Your third example represents a clear improvement of the article. It does not remove any reliably sourced information at all, it simply brings things into their appropriate chronological sequence.

I wish editors would learn to work with each other in these articles, and concentrate on finding and reflecting the best and most reliable sources. Scholarly sources are woefully underrepresented, with the most hostile scholar, Kent, vastly overrepresented in comparison to his real-life standing. The article has languished at C-class for ages. It is not our task to reflect the coverage of Scientology as given in Operation Clambake, we are supposed to reflect the most high-quality sources out there. So far, there has been too little effort invested in that direction. And I doubt that getting rid of Scientologist editors will make things better. Jayen466 18:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

First of all, this was never about "getting rid of Scientologist editors". There is demonstrated evidence that the parties listed above cooperated in some fashion in order to push a certain POV, which is favorable of their organization. I will argue that moving content around on the page is indeed quite indicative of a POV, if the information moved could be interpreted to be detrimental to the public image of the organization (i.e. well-sourced, but WP:IDONTLIKEIT). I have absolutely no quarrel with a Scientologist (or anyone, for that matter) who makes well-sourced contributions to any page. In fact, before this fiasco erupted we were in discussion of good Scholarly sources to be added to the article (you'll notice that I re-added a source which was lost in the edit war). The problem is that material which was sourced was removed in certain cases.

It's difficult to assume good faith when editors oppose the consensus of a page without prior discussion in order to push a POV. The evidence presented above (overlapping IP usage) is indicative of orchestrated COI, and a great cause for concern. The religious choice of the editors in question have no bearing on the discussion for a topic ban here. This is no different than calling into question edits made by employees of Microsoft making contributions to Windows Vista. ←Spidern→ 20:08, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Even though some editors have only now discovered the arbcom case, it is old history. Arbcom dealt with it last year, and allowed Shutterbug to continue editing. Remedies are in place and on the whole adhered to. What happened then has little to do with the present situation at the article. I appreciate it is difficult to assume good faith, but try it nonetheless. Criticise Shutterbug for her edits, and not for who s/he is or what s/he is alleged to have done last year. (Btw, I had noted and appreciated that you restored the ref. Thanx.) Jayen466 23:14, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. Several users have already reviewed the evidence and made good cases for this block. I agree with points made by Fut.Perf., GoodDamon, Cirt, Zaharous, and Durova. There is no problem with single-topic editors, but SPAs that cannot edit with the neutral point of view have caused problems time and again. This is a typical case. If this were a newer user then more guidance might get results but this is a longtime user who's already been through dispute resolution. Even with all of the Scientology and related article off limits there are still 2 million other pages to edit, so this is a mild prohibition. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:59, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
• Support. Inappropriate activity is evident. Semitransgenic (talk) 11:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose - Evidently the public burning of a minority editor w/o any reflection of the NPOV-problems and purposes of other prolific editors like ] who had no edits not related to Scientology, or ] who is only a little bit better. I am not advocating to topic ban all of them. But I see that this turns into a witch hunt and that is what Misplaced Pages is NOT. Shrampes (talk) 20:03, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

This is not a "public burning" of anyone. Shutterbug and several other accounts appear to have edited on behalf of the Church of Scientology, from Church of Scientology-controlled IP addresses. This is inappropriate behavior, and merits a topic-ban. --GoodDamon 20:52, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

This was more than a year ago and subject of a closed ArbCom decision. Also, do we know if Shutterbug is still a member? If he had left the Church his edits would be ok, right? Shrampes (talk) 23:43, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not seeing how membership in the Church is in any way an issue. Catholics, for instance, are perfectly welcome to edit the page on Catholicism. Personally, I wish Shutterbug the best in whatever his/her beliefs are. The problem lies not with those beliefs, but with editing from Church-owned IP addresses that it turns out are unlikely to be proxies. That would be a WP:COI, and evidence of WP:ROLE accounts. Why would Shutterbug's beliefs have any bearing? --GoodDamon 23:59, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

That seems to be what you are saying. Shutterbug is not allowed to edit scientology articles because he is suspected to be a scientologist with an inherent conflict of interest that is impossible to heal. Shrampes (talk) 00:30, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

No, that is distinctly and vehemently not what I am saying. You are arguing against a straw man, and attributing to me a position I do not hold. I ask that you retract your comment. Shutterbug's beliefs are his/her own, and are not the topic of discussion here. Let me make myself abundantly clear: This is about the likelihood that Shutterbug and other editors have edited on behalf of an organization as WP:ROLE accounts. I take strong umbrage with your mis-characterization of my arguments and again ask that you retract your comment. --GoodDamon 00:46, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Once again, this is not merely about the persecution or hunting down of anyone. What we have here is corroborated effort to specifically push a POV which paints the Church of Scientology in a favorable light, coming in two cases (ws.churchofscientology.org and ns1.scientology.org) from IPs which belong to the organization in question. Had the original arbitration decision actually dealt with the issue, we would not be here discussing it. I will admit that many (not all) of my edits have been Scientology-related recently, but please point out an edit of mine that did not strive for an NPOV representation of the subject matter. I once again remind you that we are dealing here with not a discriminatory ban, nor is it a ban from Misplaced Pages altogether (as Will Beback pointed out). ←Spidern→ 21:04, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Looking at your edit history I am not surprised that you say that. Without Shutterbug you had more time editing and less challenge of you own point of view. So let's get rid of him. Shrampes (talk) 00:30, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment - striking my vote, and a suggestion to previously involved editors

Due to the Arbitration Committee decision in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS, "All Scientology-related articles are placed on article probation." According to Misplaced Pages:General_sanctions#Types_of_sanctions: Article probation : Editors making disruptive edits may be banned by an administrator from articles on probation and related articles or project pages. Editors of such articles should be especially mindful of content policies, such as WP:NPOV, and interaction policies, such as WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, WP:3RR, and WP:POINT.

After thinking this over and looking at these above pages I think it is best if this Topic Ban poll relating to Shutterbug and related accounts takes place among NPOV, previously uninvolved administrators. Specifically: From WP:BAN -- The Arbitration Committee may delegate the authority to ban a user, such as by authorizing discretionary sanctions in certain topic areas, which can be imposed by any uninvolved administrator. I could be seen myself as being previously involved on Scientology articles, and so I am striking my vote in the Topic Ban proposal. I suggest other editors previously involved on Scientology-related articles do the same, including GoodDamon , Justallofthem , Jayen466 , Zaharous , Bravehartbear , Spidern , and Shrampes . Cirt (talk) 21:03, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I never voted here to begin with due to of my heavy involvement with Scientology-related articles as of late. I suggest that the initiator of the topic ban proposal would withdraw it here and reopen it with the intention of receiving feedback from non-involved users, with a link to our archived discussion here for evaluation purposes. I would also suggest that we initiate a request for comment to bring about the consensus of non-involved users. ←Spidern→ 21:16, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Cirt, I completely concur. As stated above, I am happy to defer to outside administrative perspective. Considering this is a discussion that may result in a significant topic-ban, it's appropriate for those of us who have otherwise been involved to let others hash it out. I will continue to argue my position, but I would prefer my arguments be reviewed for their merits, rather than my "vote". --GoodDamon 21:54, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

On a side note, purely for organizational purposes, if previous editors at the Scientology pages will all agree to strike their !votes here, I suggest archiving the above discussions and continuing with the refined proposals below. --GoodDamon 22:36, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Disagree, the section contains some relevant diffs and arguments. Jayen466 22:40, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Forgive my poor choice of words. I don't propose to template-close it, I mean merely to get things better organized for !voting and review by outside administrators. --GoodDamon 22:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

If you also remove those !voters who, while not direct participants in this conflict, have a long prior history with one or more editors here, then I believe there is at the most one "uninvolved" editor left. :-) Jayen466 22:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I do not disagree, but I could find no recent diffs in the last few months on Scientology-related articles for the others that commented above. Cirt (talk) 22:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Current topic ban proposal (previously uninvolved admins only)

Hi. As the person who originally proposed the topic ban, I stand behind my proposal. The basic concern is that someone is an SPA who is pushing a POV. They're probably trying their best to contribute, but may be falling afoul. So I suggest a slight modification:

• Indefinite topic ban from any Scientology-related articles, including Scientology-related sections in other articles, to be construed broadly
• After three months, contribs to be reviewed by some completely uninvolved admins. If the user has shown strong contributions in other areas, topic ban to be lifted. Otherwise revisit three months after that. At that point, it'll be obvious whether or not they are contributing to the project or furthering an agenda.

Thoughts? // roux   editor review 22:01, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Unwarranted in my view. Some of Shutterbug's edits were good, others not more POV than those of other editors with an opposite bias. A stern, and FINAL warning not to violate 3RR suffices, perhaps plus restriction to the talk page of any Scientology-related articles for a limited period. Plus the aforementioned trout slapping for GoodDamon for his part in the edit war. Jayen466 22:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I called for some help here. We will see what happens. Shrampes (talk) 00:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Per WP:BAN, let's please keep further comments in this subsection relating to the Topic Ban Proposal to previously uninvolved administrators. Others may comment in the above subsections. Thanks. Cirt (talk) 22:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Hold on a minute

Revert by user Grandmaster

Grandmaster (talk · contribs) vandalizes the aricle Nagorno-Karabakh. He removed my edits which were based on the works of the US-based sholar Robert H. Hewsen. Please note his edit summary, where he refers to the intro of the article, but my edits were also in other parts of the article and some of them were images. I agree we should reach consensus, but Grandmaster don't mentions with what exactly he don't agrees, that we could discuss these points on the talk page. In place of doing so, he removed all my edits. Previously I removed some edits of Grandmaster and gave a detailed explenation on that in the talkpage, why he is not doing the same?. I request intervention of admins. --Vacio (talk) 05:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

The intro of this article was the result of many months, maybe years of discussion. There 13 archives of the discussions on the talk of this article. In its present form it represents a consensus, achieved with mediation of FrancisTyers and Golbez. Conflicts over this particular article resulted in 3 arbcom cases. So any radical changes to this article should be discussed at talk, with participation of mediators, and included in the article after the consensus is reached. You cannot just come and change the entire text, including the intro, to reflect certain POV. Please discuss, and remember, that it took years of discussion to reach the current version of the most controversial article on AA topic. It does not mean that it cannot be edited and changed, but the important changes should be discussed first. Grandmaster (talk) 05:34, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

The comment by mediator FrancisTyers might be useful to understand the situation: I would also like to note that Vacio was relieved from his parole the second time now, but again resumed edit warring, making 2 rvs on a very sensitive article: Grandmaster (talk) 07:07, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

See m:The Wrong Version, the problem is not wheither its wrong or not. The problem is your behaviour: you disagree with A and B, but you remove my edits from A to Z. The edits of FrancisTyers can't be a justification for your acting, he is a mediatior, you and me not. See also his recent post on my talk page.

I am also not in mood for edit wars, nor I am under any restrictions. --Vacio (talk) 09:01, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

But you were placed on restrictions twice, and both times the restrictions were lifted after you promised not to edit war. So keep your promise. Grandmaster (talk) 10:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

How am I edit warring? when a mediator says that text which is not disputed can placed back . --Vacio (talk) 11:06, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

You made 2 rvs, that's no good. Try editing by consensus with other editors, or get mediators to help resolve the disputes. That's the way it works. Excessive reverting is not helpful. The mediator told you to start from the least contentious edits. I hope that's what you'll do. Good luck. Grandmaster (talk) 11:45, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I noticed that after reverting the edits, Grandmaster failed to discuss the points brought forward by Vacio. Arguments and documented evidence complied by Vacio were valid points, perhaps in a wrong partof the article, or they should have been made in a more concise manner in the Introduction. They should find their place in the Nagorno-Karabakh article. Regards. Capasitor (talk) 02:34, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Please check the talk page. I don't see any activity on your part there. Grandmaster (talk) 08:59, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I think a lot of the problems and arguments could be calmed down if it were decided what the actual article should be about. It seems it should be about Nagorno-Karabakh as a geographical region, and should contain a description of that region along with an account of its history and its peoples. Meowy 20:44, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

• Vacio, I'm not impressed. There's nothing actionable here but your edits contained multiple errors of spelling and grammar on a high-profile, plus they didn't look especially neutral (how is the common name not Nagorno-Karabakh? Gets double the google hits). Plus, there was no need to come straight to AE either. This can be archived now, as Francis Tyers seems to have sorted out the content issues (thank you), but consider yourself warned. Moreschi (talk) 22:21, 4 December 2008 (UTC)