Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:39, 9 December 2008

Paora ... that following public backlash over the mistreatment of Paora (pictured), Zoo Miami stated: "We have offended the nation of New Zealand"? ... that lacrosse player Austin Staats was undefeated in his college career? ... that one of the major prey groups of the paddle crab, Ovalipes catharus, is other paddle crabs? ... that Arab Christian physician Abu Sulayman Da'ud served both Latin Christian and Arab Muslim rulers? ... that jazz dancer LaTasha Barnes used to be a sergeant in the U.S. Army? ... that the basic tune for "As Long as You're Mine" from 2003's Wicked was written by Stephen Schwartz in the 1970s? ... that Jing Tsu remembers being called "female tiger" because her schoolteachers' punishments had little effect on her? ... that booing heard after the United Kingdom's entry at the Eurovision Song Contest 1984 was reportedly either a response to past football hooliganism, claims of lip syncing, or alleged plagiarism of the Supremes? ... that the 2024 American Samoan gubernatorial election was won by Pula and Pulu? Archive Start a new article Nominate an article

This page is for nominations to appear in the "Did you know" section (reproduced on the right) on the Main Page.

Instructions

Using a DYK suggestion string (see below examples), list new suggestions in the candidate entries section below under the date the article was created or the expansion began (not the date you submit it here), with the newest dates at the top. Any user may nominate a DYK suggestion; self-nominations are permitted and encouraged. Thanks for participating and please remember to check back for comments on your nomination.

DYK criteria

• DYK evaluation includes:

• Length - The Article should contain at least 1,500 characters in main body text (ignoring infoboxes, categories, references, lists, and tables). This is a mandatory minimum; in practice, articles having more than 1,500 characters of prose still may be rejected as too short, at the discretion of the selecting administrators.
• Verification - The DYK hook fact in the article needs an inline cite at the end of the sentence and the article in general should use inline, cited sources.
• Date - The new article should be no more than five days old and the expanded article should be expanded at least fivefold with new text within the last five days.

• Length

• DYK qualifying characters: To count the number of characters in a piece of text, you will need to use a JavaScript extension like User:Dr pda/prosesize.js (instructions on the talk page), a free website like this, or an external software program that has a character-counting feature. For example, if you are using Microsoft Word, select the text from the article page (or, in the case of "Did you know" nominations, this Talk page) – not the edit page containing Wikitext – then copy and paste it into a blank document. Click "Tools" ("Review" in Office 2007), then "Word Count", and note the "Characters (with spaces)" figure. Other word processing programs may have a similar feature. For Mac users, Apple has a Word counter widget available for Mac OS X 10.4 or later. Note: The character counts indicated on "Revision history" pages are not accurate for DYK purposes as they include categories, infoboxes and similar text in articles, and comments and signatures in hooks on this page.
• Lists: Proposed lists need 1,500+ characters of prose text. The listed items themselves are not counted as part the the 1,500 DYK qualifying characters

• Verification

• Suggested facts (the 'hook') should be:
  1. interesting to draw in a variety of readers,
  2. short and concise (fewer than about 200 characters, including spaces),
  3. neutral,
  4. definite facts that are mentioned in the article, and
  5. always cited in the article with an inline citation.
• Please note that hooks are subject without notice to copyediting as they move to the main page. The nature of the DYK process makes it impractical to consult users over every such edit. In particular, hooks will be shortened if they are deemed too long: the 200-character limit is an outside limit not a recommended length. Also, watch the suggestions page to ensure that no issues have been raised about your hook, because if you do not respond to issues raised your hook may not be featured at all.
• Articles on living individuals must be carefully checked to ensure that no unsourced or poorly sourced negative material is included. Articles and hooks which focus unduly on negative aspects of living individuals should be avoided.

• Other issues

• Pictures: Pictures accompanying the DYK hook should be:
  1. freely licensed suitably and freely (PD, GFDL, CC etc) licensed (NOT fair use) because the main page can only have freely licensed pictures;
  2. suitable, attractive, and interesting at a 100x100px-wide resolution;
  3. already in the article; and
  4. relevant to the article.

• Sounds: Sounds accompanying the DYK hook should have similar qualities to pictures, and should be formatted using {{DYK Listen|filename.ogg|Brief description}}

Sample DYK suggestion strings

Please use one of the strings below to post your DYK nomination, using the "author" and "nominator" fields to identify the users who should receive credit for their contributions if the hook is featured on the main page.

1. Nom without image: {{subst:NewDYKnom | article= | hook=... that ? | author= }}
2. Nom with image: {{subst:NewDYKnom | article= | hook=... that ? | author= | image= | caption= }}

   To include more than one new or expanded article in a single hook: |article2= |article3= |article4= | (etc)

   To include more than one author: |author2= |author3= | (etc)

   To include alternate hooks: |ALT1= |ALT2= | (etc)

   To add a comment: |comment=

   To add the article you reviewed: |reviewed=

Do not wikilink the article title, or the author username field; the template will wikilink them automatically. Do wikilink the article title in the hook field, however.
Do not add a section heading if you are using the template; the template will add one for you.
Do not include a signature (~~~~) after the template.
Do not use non-free images in your hook suggestion.

• When saving your suggestion, please add the name of the suggested article to your edit summary.
• Please check back for comments on your nomination. Responding to reasonable objections will help ensure that your article is listed.
• If you nominate someone else's article, you can use {{subst:DYKNom}} to notify them. Usage: {{subst:DYKNom|Article name|January 1}} Thanks, ~~~~

Symbols

If you want to confirm that an article is ready to be placed on a later update, or that there is an issue with the article or hook, you may use the following symbols (optional) to point the issues out:

• {{subst:DYKtick}}
• {{subst:DYKtickAGF}}
• {{subst:DYK?}}
• {{subst:DYK?no}}
• {{subst:DYKno}}
• {{subst:DYK?again}}

You may notify the nominator of problems with {{subst:DYKproblem|Article|header=yes|sig=yes}}

Please consider using {{subst:DYKproblem}} on the user's talk page, in case they do not notice if there is an issue.

Next update

DYK queue status There are currently 4 filled queues. Humans, please consider promoting a prep to queue if you have the time! v t e Earliest time for next DYK update: 00:00, 2 January 2025 (UTC) Current time: 16:47, 1 January 2025 (UTC) Update frequency: once every 12 hours Last updated: 4 hours ago( verify reset purge )

Backlogged?

This page often seems to be backlogged. If the DYK template has not been updated for substantially more than 6 hours, it may be useful to attract the attention of one of the administrators who regularly updates the template. See the page Misplaced Pages:Did you know/Admins for a list of administrators who have volunteered to help with this project.

Candidate entries

Articles created/expanded on December 9

Jan Pawel Pietrzak

Jan Pawel Pietrzak

Template:DYKsuggestion at 17:40, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Malta Pavilion

Template:DYKsuggestion at 17:05, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Chlorociboria aeruginascens

Template:DYKsuggestion at 14:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

1927 (band)

Template:DYKsuggestion at 08:57, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

--Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 11:38, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

E77 balloon bomb

Template:DYKsuggestion at 08:57, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

--IvoShandor (talk) 08:57, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Woodside Plaza

Template:DYKsuggestion at 07:04, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

computational lithography

Template:DYKsuggestion at 05:46, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• The hook is referenced in the article, but most of the article is incomprehensible to me, and probably to most other readers. I don't think we can feature it unless it gets rewritten in layman's terms. —Politizer /_contribs 06:09, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Executive Order 13128

Template:DYKsuggestion at 03:52, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Self nom:--IvoShandor (talk) 03:52, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

This should be just over the limit of characters (if it's still the same) if it's not just note it here and I will try to expand a bit. --IvoShandor (talk) 03:52, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Article seems short to me -- and thin in content. Also, the article should clarify the current status of this executive order. The first sentence uses the word "was", implying that it has been cancelled, but it appears to me from the rest of the article that the order is still in effect. --Orlady (talk) 17:53, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Jim Foster (activist)

• ... that Jim Foster and Madeline D. Davis were the first two openly LGBT people to address a major American national political convention when they spoke to the 1972 Democratic National Convention? OR
• ... that Ted Kennedy credited LGBT and Democratic activist Jim Foster with his victory in the 1980 California Democratic primary? - self nom, article created today. Otto4711 (talk) 02:46, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Bill Paparian

Template:DYKsuggestion 02:48, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus

Template:DYKsuggestion Cbl62 (talk) 01:10, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Afghan Muscles

• ... that the 2006 film Afghan Muscles resulted from director Andreas Møl Dalsgaard spending three years following a group of bodybuilders in Kabul? (New article, self-nom) Ecoleetage (talk) 03:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• alt 1 ... * ... that the director of Afghan Muscles avoided the role of Afghan women in bodybuilding, noting "It's men looking at men," and "60% have their first sexual experience with another man"? Cbl62 (talk) 03:26, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• alt 2 ... that Afghan Muscles is an award-winning 2006 documentary film about the renaissance in bodybuilding in Afghanistan following the overthrow of the Taliban government? Cbl62 (talk) 03:27, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• Verified. Whichever works fine. – RyanCross (talk) 03:49, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, but I prefer the original hook. :) Ecoleetage (talk) 04:05, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I would prefer alt 1, which has a bit of shock value. --BorgQueen (talk) 04:10, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that is a bit of a shock -- I had to reread that sentence to make sure he was saying what he said. Whatever works for y'all works for me. :) Ecoleetage (talk) 04:29, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Stick candy

Template:DYKsuggestion at 05:18, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• Shouldn't this be merged with Rock (confectionary)? Looks like a US/Brit language difference to me. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 17:04, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Barry Bishop (mountaineer)

Template:DYKsuggestion at 08:39, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Articles created/expanded on December 8

AMX-30

Template:DYKsuggestion at 17:52, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Clay-Ashland

Template:DYKsuggestion 11:54, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

S. A. K. Durga

Template:DYKsuggestion at 04:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

The Eternal Light

Template:DYKsuggestion at 03:33, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• The article must be linked from the hook (see "Unwritten" Rule B1). So:
• ALT:... that the Jewish Theological Seminary of America produced the NBC radio and TV program The Eternal Light commercial-free for 45 years, with the show's producer saying "God needs no sponsor"? Art LaPella (talk) 05:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course. Changed accordingly.  JGHowes  14:21, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

IWF block of Misplaced Pages

Template:DYKsuggestion at 02:42, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• ALT1 ... that on December 5, the IWF blocked access to the Virgin Killer article in the UK by adding it to a blacklist of websites it deems "potentially illegal" due to the albums cover featuring a nude prepubescent girl? (edit conflict) This alt is over the 200 char limit by 7 characters, but I still think that it could be considered, All the Best, --Mifter (talk) 02:51, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

*Although this hasn't yet appeared in the "In the news" section, it may in the future. ITN is a better place for it anyways. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 02:44, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, that's a good point, as it stands now, I don't think that this is currently covered enough in external news sources for an ITN feature, but that could be an option, if enough more news sources feature this and DYK decides to reject it ITN would be a good place for this, but I'd rather wait for more input from other editors before making a final call :). All the Best, --Mifter (talk) 03:00, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

How many external news sources do you need? Google News search identifies 273! It is being discussed at ITN. Gwinva (talk) 04:10, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Humphrey Bate

Template:DYKsuggestion Cbl62 (talk) 00:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

2009 Orange Bowl

Template:DYKsuggestion JKBrooks85 (talk) 23:57, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Australian plague locust

Template:DYKsuggestion at 21:25, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Battle of the Severn

Template:DYKsuggestion Yachtsman1 (talk) 19:05, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The article must be linked from the hook ("Unwritten" Rule B1). ALT: ... that the Battle of the Severn, the final battle of the English Civil Wars, was fought in Annapolis, Maryland, in 1655, four years after the war had concluded in England? Art LaPella (talk) 19:49, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, this is the first time I have ever nominated an article. I made the change up top.--Yachtsman1 (talk) 20:03, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Fuligo septica

Template:DYKsuggestion at 17:39, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Length, date, hook, and image verified. -- Suntag ☼ 00:28, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Lincoln "Babe" Broyhill

Template:DYKsuggestion Cbl62 (talk) 05:46, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Yup. Gatoclass (talk) 10:50, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Main Synagogue of Barcelona

Template:DYKsuggestion at 05:29, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Creation history and ref verified. Long enough in my view, although lots of scope to expand; other reviewers may wish to double-check. A picture would be beneficial, but I can't find any on Commons. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 12:41, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Fifth Avenue Synagogue & Emanuel Rackman

Template:DYKsuggestion Alansohn (talk) 04:08, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Both articles are ready: ref, lengths and creation histories verified. (NYT archive report is subscription-only, but headline bears out the hook fact.) Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 12:49, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• A bit ambiguous. Is the "who" referring to Jakobivits or Rackman? Alt hook: ... that Emanuel Rackman succeeded Immanuel Jakobovits as Rabbi of the Fifth Avenue Synagogue when Jakobovits was elected Chief Rabbi of the United Hebrew Congregations of the Commonwealth?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 01:28, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Charles Wellford Leavitt

Template:DYKsuggestion Cbl62 (talk) 03:59, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Fascinating article, but I have a couple of concerns before I can approve. The ref relating to the Kykuit estate indicates Leavitt designed the approach roads and was asked to do the landscaping etc. as well, but the commission was eventually given to another designer. Also, some of the references, such as , and , consist of text which would be better integrated with the article. There are then bare URLs within these sections which would have to be formatted appropriately. Overall, though, it's nearly ready. (Length, creation history and Forbes Field ref verified.) Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 13:01, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The work on the Rockefeller estate seems pretty limited, so how about the following alt hook:

• ALT1 ... that the works of landscape architect Charles Leavitt include gardens for Walter P. Chrysler and William C. Whitney, the grandstands at Forbes Field, and racetracks at Saratoga and Belmont? Cbl62 (talk) 23:28, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

List of Dallas Mavericks head coaches

• ... that none of the Dallas Mavericks head coaches have been elected into the Basketball Hall of Fame as a coach? self-nom, created article. -- SRE.K.Annoyomous.L.24 02:31, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Verified. Ref 8 checks out. – RyanCross (talk) 03:36, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Coppermine Expedition of 1819–1822

Template:DYKsuggestion

• Correctly cited in the article with more than one offline ref. Length and creation history are fine. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 13:24, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Holy Land USA

Template:DYKsuggestion

• alt ... that Holy Land USA (pictured), a Connecticut theme park intended to replicate Bethlehem and Jerusalem of the biblical era, once attracted upwards of 40,000 visitors annually? Cbl62 (talk) 03:33, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Verified. Either hook works out. Ref 1 of The New York Times article checks out. – RyanCross (talk) 03:39, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps retain the alt hook for 25th Dec, and move to the "DYKs relevant to December 25, 2008 holidays" subsection...? Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 21:27, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Not a bad idea, but I would say no, only because Holy Land USA was not a Christmas site, per se -- it also covered the Old Testament and Jesus' ministry. Ecoleetage (talk) 03:12, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Josef Klehr

Template:DYKsuggestion at 10:23, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Date, length and reference verified. Olaf Davis | Talk 17:06, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Articles created/expanded on December 7

WJBE

Template:DYKsuggestion at 17:54, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

El Mashad v. Bush

Template:DYKsuggestion at 19:40, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Eugene Goodman

Template:DYKsuggestion at 19:40, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Trading halt

Template:DYKsuggestion at 19:40, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Twist lifts

Template:DYKsuggestion at 19:40, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Battle of Jinyang

Template:DYKsuggestion at 14:24, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Expansion and date good, foreign-language refs accepted in good faith. --Bruce1ee 14:51, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Jacob's Well

Template:DYKsuggestionTiamut 13:02, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Weekly Manga Times

Template:DYKsuggestion at 06:30, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Mianus River Gorge

Template:DYKsuggestion at 06:10, 8 December 2008 (UTC) dm (talk) 06:08, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Thompson Pond

Template:DYKsuggestion dm (talk) 05:05, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

2008 ACC Championship Game

Template:DYKsuggestion JKBrooks85 (talk) 23:59, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

New Gallery (London)

Template:DYKsuggestion

• Added a hook for Edward Robert Robson, also a new article. The "gilding" was platinum — i.e. platinum leaf? --Wetman (talk) 02:19, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Both dates and lengths verified, and offline reference taken on good faith. The OED supports "To cover with (a specified) metal" as an alternative meaning of "to gild", so how about "...topped them with platinum-gilded..." or "...with platinum-covered..."? Olaf Davis | Talk 17:13, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

My source says "gilded Greek capitals" and platinum architrave, frieze etc. giving the impression of "dead silver". I wouldn't assume that the gilded capitals were also platinum from that; Wetman, do you have more info, or am I misreading?

Double-hook option is a kick, well done. - PKM (talk) 04:34, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Sue K. Hicks

Template:DYKsuggestion Cbl62 (talk) 21:37, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. I've heard this story before, but I think it has to be considered apocryphal. The WP article about the song says only that "The title might have been inspired by the male attorney Sue K. Hicks of Madisonville, Tennessee". I don't have full text access to the NY Times article that is cited as one source for this fact (the other citation is "Find a Grave", which I don't consider a particularly reliable source on topics other than where people's remains are located), but the bits of the article that I can see on search results pages are equivocal about the matter. Here is the excerpt that I can read: "A Boy Named Sue" is a song made famous by Mr. Cash. His name is Sue. And that is why Judge Sue K. Hicks has received two record albums from Johnny Cash, along with two autographed pictures of the singer. With the autographs, he penned 'To Sue, how do you do,' a paraphrase from the song... Judge Hicks believes he was the inspiration for the song, which tells of the growing-up pains, inflicted by his peers, of a boy named Sue. The judge was introduced at a judicial conference a few years ago in the resort town of Gatlinburg, Tenn. Steel Silverstein, author of the song, ... "

Plenty of sources repeat the story that Hicks' name inspired the song, but none is particularly strong on fact-checking. For example, Bryan College mentions the song in its tour guide to Scopes Trial places in Dayton, TN, this website by a lawyer who knew Hicks says that Johnny Cash wrote the song (WRONG!! it was written by Shel Silverstein) "while in Gatlinburg following a bar meeting that had Judge Sue Hicks as one of its speakers," and in 2000 the Baptist Press said "And about that boy named Sue. He was actually Sue Hicks, a Dayton attorney for the prosecution, named after his mother. He was immortalized in a song by Johnny Cash, 'A Boy Named Sue.'"

Unless the full NYTimes articles says that the song really was inspired by Hicks, I think the article should be revised to express less certitude, and I think the following hook (or something similar) would be a better choice (I also trimmed for length):

• ALT1... that Sue K. Hicks, a prosecutor in the Scopes Monkey Trial who later became a judge, believed himself to be the inspiration for the song, "A Boy Named Sue," popularized by singer Johnny Cash?

--Orlady (talk) 04:17, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The fact that some sources (not the ones listed in the article) listing Sue Hicks as the inspiration for the song list Cash as the writer doesn't mean it's not true that Hicks was the inspiration. While there is no definitive statement from songwriter, Shel Silverstein (who died in 1999), the New York Times article states: "The judge was introduced at a judicial conference a few years ago in the resort town of Gatlinburg, Tenn. Shel Silverstein, author of the song, is said to have been in Gatlinburg at the time, and the name of the town is incldued in the lyrics." Also, Johnny Cash and Judge Hicks exchanged autographed photos of each other after the song became popular. Even absent a definitive statement from Silverstein, a hook is supportable as saying more than just that Silverstein believed he was the inspiration. To be more precise, but not unduly narrow, I suggest this alt hook:

Template:DYKsuggestion Cbl62 (talk) 06:57, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Weasel words, eh? I'd feel much better with the "may have been the inspiration" language used in the Boy Named Sue article. --Orlady (talk) 14:15, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Not weasel words, really. I'd call them accurate words chosen in response to a concern that you raised. He has been "reported" in several sources to have been the inspiration. When you say you prefer "may have been" because it is the wording used in the Boy Named Sue article, you're taking Misplaced Pages as a valid source -- which we're not supposed to do. But if you prefer to substitute "may have been" for "was reportedly", that's fine, though. Cbl62 (talk) 15:45, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't appear to me that anyone ever actually reliably "reported" that he was the inspiration. The sources do support the statement that he "may have been" the inspiration; the Misplaced Pages article is a "source" or "inspiration" for that particular wording, but it is not the source for the information itself. --Orlady (talk) 16:26, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I've changed the article to "may have" to be consistent with the NYT article (I added the NYT citation to the "Boy Named Sue" article a few days ago, since it had a fact tag). There is a source somewhere that says that after Hicks heard the song, he checked the register for the bar meeting in Gatlinburg, and Silverstein's name was on it. I recall the source saying that while Silverstein and Cash denied that Hicks was the inspiration for legal reasons, they somehow made it clear to him that he was indeed the inspiration. Silverstein rarely gave interviews, so he was never prodded on the issue, at least to my knowledge. Unfortunately, I simply cannot remember where I read this, and I've looked everywhere. Until I locate this elusive source, saying Hicks "may have been" the inspiration for the song is fine with me. Bms4880 (talk) 18:06, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

ColorGraphics Weather Systems

Template:DYKsuggestion 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Rolf Ketil Bjørn

Template:DYKsuggestion at 21:32, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• Date, length and reference verified. Manxruler (talk) 22:05, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

SS Princess Sophia

Template:DYKsuggestion - I know I've technically nominated this, but at User:Shinerunner's suggestion, so the credit is really his for finding this. Benea (talk) 16:52, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Impatiens

Template:DYKsuggestion at 12:32, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Can anyone check expansion please? It might fall short (>3fold as per overall characters), but previous version might arguably have consisted of very little "qualifying text", being mostly a list of species. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 12:32, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• That is correct. Prosesize.js excludes the list of "selected species", so the expansion is from 1379 to 8990 or 6.5-fold. Art LaPella (talk) 20:59, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

William Gordon Harris

• ... that William Gordon Harris's tenure as Director-General of Highways at the British Ministry of Transport saw the construction of 650 miles of motorways? - self-nom, new article - Dumelow (talk) 11:39, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Khedive Palace

Template:DYKsuggestion at 09:34, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• Ref. only says it has one of the first steam powered lifts, nothing about an "original" lift or a tower. Gatoclass (talk) 12:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
• Alt-... that the terrace on top of the 1907-built Khedive Palace in Istanbul, Turkey is accessible also by a historic steam-operated elevator? CeeGee (talk) 16:23, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

History of Pulicat

• ... that during the history of Pulicat between 1621 and 1665, over 38,000 Indian slaves were obtained by Dutch slave traders and shipped from the Coromandel Coast (pictured), mostly to the East Indies? New article co-nominated by Nvvchar (talk) & Marcus (talk) 06:28, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Thomas Allin

Template:DYKsuggestion at 19:04, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• alt ... that Thomas Allin, who served in the American Revolutionary War as part of Nathanael Greene's campaign, later became the surveyor in Kentucky for the "Transylvania Company"? Cbl62 (talk) 22:33, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Articles created/expanded on December 6

World Series of Beer Pong

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Tom Krieglstein

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:18, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Newfoundland Royal Naval Reserve

Template:DYKsuggestion at 01:06, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

2008 Irish pork crisis

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• The 2008 Irish pork crisis has just reached ITN earlier today. --PFHLai (talk) 23:54, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Since it was on ITN. Too bad, 'cause I liked the piggy photo. -- Suntag ☼ 13:27, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Acute decompensated heart failure

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Ashley Day Leavitt

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Ball Bearing (Lexus)

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Charles Cornwallis, 2nd Baron Cornwallis

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• ALT: ... that the 2nd Lord Cornwallis once served as a groom of the Stool? -- Mackensen (talk) 23:37, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Consumer Protection Safety Improvement Act

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Elections in England and Wales, 1949

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Enos Lowe

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Erasmus Ommanney

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Food in Hindu Law

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Galoter process

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Guillermo Kalbreyer

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Henry Frederick Stephenson

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Hindu Titles of Law

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

HM Bengough

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Miracle of the roses

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Mars Ocean Hypothesis

Template:DYKsuggestion at 12:12, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Two slightly picky queries about this, both related to the first reference which is cited for the hook fact in the lede (and which I've added a link to in the reference). My first concern is about the name: the capitalisation suggests to me that it's an established term, but the paper cited doesn't mention the phrase. Do other works in the literature, or is this just a convenient name for the article? If the latter I'd advocate renaming it to 'Mars ocean hypothesis'. My second and more major point is that the paper talks about a third of the surface being covered by "standing bodies of water and ice" (emphasis added). It does say that "the bulk of this water would have existed as an ice-covered ocean", but it's not clear without reading the whole paper whether that 'bulk' is still over a third. Does the rest of the paper say it is? Apart from those two small points, the article (date, length, source) checks out. Olaf Davis | Talk 17:28, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• These are two issues which I believe the article creator will have to address. User:Scholar743 has been notified. BTW at the time of nomination ref #1 was an offline ref which I took in good faith; Olaf has since made it an online ref. --Bruce1ee 05:52, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Cannabis in New Zealand

Template:DYKsuggestion at 11:52, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• ALT1 that cannabis is the most widely used illegal drug in New Zealand? -- Suntag ☼ 18:27, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Hook is supported, but I would like to see a more substantive lead-in section written before passing this. (even just repeating/summarizing stuff from elsewhere in the same article would be fine.) —Politizer /_contribs 06:04, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Paul Kogerman

Template:DYKsuggestion Cbl62 (talk) 07:39, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Length and history good, but no inline citation for the deportation thing. —Politizer /_contribs 08:18, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I added inline citations to the deportation thing. Sverdlovsk is mentioned in the CV included in the External links section (only in Estonian).

Verified. I added a page number for where the relevant information is located in the pdf. —Politizer /_contribs 05:47, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Beech-maple forest

Template:DYKsuggestion dm (talk) 07:14, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• This hook is pretty uninformative for people who aren't familiar with ecology terms; it would help if you could suggest another. Also, while the article is technically over 1,500 characters, it is still quite sparse...if you could quickly expand it more while it's still under DYK review, it would be easier to pass it. One thing that could be added is information on the significance of beech-maple communities in ecology literature, research, etc., why it's important as a classification, and stuff like that. —Politizer /_contribs 08:15, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Sure, I was going for the short sweet and frankly shocking as in "I have to click this" hook. I'll see what I can do to further flesh out the article. Lets see if someone else comes up with a better hook. Thanks for the comments! dm (talk) 08:20, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Ohhhh, I didn't even think of that. Well, if other editors here think this might be a good way to hook some readers in, I wouldn't be opposed to passing it. (Although I think if we really wanted to go with that wordplay I think it would be more appropriate for the main article to be climax community...too bad it's not nice and new like beech-maple forest!) I'll give it a day or so to see what other reviewers have to say, and what you are able to add to the article. —Politizer /_contribs 09:14, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Could try this variation:

• ALT1 ... that the beech-maple forest is a climax plant community in the eastern United States and Canada?

Orlady (talk) 03:55, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

It would have to be Northeastern, it doesn't go below Virginia

• ALT2 ... that the Beech-maple forest is a climax plant community in the northeast section of North America?

dm (talk) 11:19, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I beg to differ regarding the geography. There's some beech-maple forest where I live in Tennessee, and at least one of the sources in the article describes this area as part of the range. Having never heard of the "northeast section of North America," if "eastern North America" is rejected, I'd call it "eastern United States and Canada". --Orlady (talk) 14:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Changed to eastern US and Canada, I like that wording better anyway. —Politizer /_contribs 15:37, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

The article lacks an inline source for the fact that this is a climax community. Also the article length is marginal (currently I count exactly 1500 characters without spaces). --Orlady (talk) 18:34, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Balance (Lexus)

Template:DYKsuggestion at 17:26, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• Should make this a twofer with Ball Bearing (Lexus) below....

ALT ... that the Balance and 'Ball Bearing' television advertisements for the Lexus LS 400 and ES 300, were highly honored and subsequently referenced by its competitors in their own advertising campaigns?

dm (talk) 11:30, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Battle of Luzon

Template:DYKsuggestion at 05:42, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• OK, it's ready now I think. Chamal 13:21, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

William Reeves (bishop)

• ... that in 1853 the Irish clergyman William Reeves bought the 9th century Book of Armagh (pictured) for three hundred pounds? - new article self-nominated by Strawless 03:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Raymond F. Lederer

Template:DYKsuggestion at 02:44, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• Lederer was videotaped at a motel in New York on September 11, 1979, at a New York motel meeting with two undercover agents who presented themselves as representatives of a supposed Arab sheik. Accepting $50,000 in cash, he told the agents "I can give you me" in exchange for the money.

It would be good if the hook could say what Lederer's office was at the time. It now assumes that the reader knows or can guess, but it's not even clear that he was a politician. Dahn (talk) 01:53, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

How's this (ALT)*... that U.S. Congressman Raymond F. Lederer said "I can give you me", in exchange for $50,000 from two undercover agents posing as representatives of a fictitious Arab sheik in the Abscam investigation? -- Alansohn (talk) 13:19, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

People v. Salem

Template:DYKsuggestion at 01:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• Added date.--Wetman (talk) 06:45, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Collin Mooney

Template:DYKsuggestion at 19:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Judgment Day (2003)

Template:DYKsuggestion at 19:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Samuel Frederick Henry Thompson

Template:DYKsuggestion at 19:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Unforgiven (2002)

Template:DYKsuggestion at 17:06, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Alexander Cannon (psychiatrist)

Template:DYKsuggestion at 15:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

• There is a bit of a problem with a portion of the hook. The part about him having counselled King Edward VIII is well-sourced: ref no 3 in the article, a BBC news-story (although please add publication date to this and other refs). However, the bit about "Kushog Yogi of Northern Thibet" is sourced by ref no 1, , an entry about Alexander Cannon at Answers.com. Sorry, but IMO, Answers.com does not qualify as a reliable source in the sense of WP:V and WP:RS. Answers.com is a compilation site that pools together information from many other sites and sources, and, in my observations, does so with a rather low standard of rigour and with a lot of questionable sources used. I don't think Answers.com should be used for a DYK fact. I suggest either providing a better reference for the "Kushog Yogi of Northern Thibet" bit or omitting this bit from the hook altogether. Nsk92 (talk) 01:34, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

No problem. How about:-

• ... that psychiatrist and occultist Alexander Cannon, who was known as the "Yorkshire Yogic" and was later described by MI5 as a "quack and compulsive liar", counselled British King Edward VIII shortly before his abdication in 1936? Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:10, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• Better, in terms of sourcing, but a few issues still remain. First, the new hook is too long: 233 characters (computed using this tool), whereas by DYK rules the limit is 200 characters, including spaces and punctuation. So you need to shorten it. Second, the bit about "Yorkshire Yogic", if kept in the hook, needs a citation (to ref no 3) in the actual sentence in the article where this information is mentioned. Right now the relevant citation is at the end of the section "Influence on King Edward VIII". Third (a rather minor point but still), please add the publication date to ref no 3 which is used to support the hook (and in fact it is a good idea to add publication details to other references too). Nsk92 (talk) 13:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• I've added the reference to the correct sentence, and changed "Yogic" to "Yogi" (although the BBC reference actually uses both). I'll try to tidy up the article more tomorrow. Trying again (195 characters):-
• ... that Alexander Cannon, who was known as the "Yorkshire Yogi" and was described by MI5 as a "quack and compulsive liar", counselled British King Edward VIII shortly before his abdication in 1936? Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:18, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

No Mercy (2002)

Template:DYKsuggestion at 15:51, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Armageddon (2000)

Template:DYKsuggestion at 14:58, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Justice Leak

Template:DYKsuggestion at 13:00, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

• • Length, date good, offline refs accepted in good faith. --Bruce1ee 14:31, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Willamette Bearcats

Template:DYKsuggestion

Since that same fact was used for a DYK for Spec Keene, how about:

• ... that Liz Heaston was the first woman to score points in a college football game when she kicked an extra point for the Willamette Bearcats in 1997? Aboutmovies (talk) 09:15, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Articles created/expanded on December 5

Turkish–Venetian War (1570–1573)

Template:DYKsuggestion at 14:19, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Kathryn Stott

Template:DYKsuggestion at 09:03, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• Alternative hook (lest the above prove too racy): ...that pianist Kathryn Stott directed piano festivals featuring a red "Ferrari" Steinway, an "exploded" piano, a grove of woven pianos and a concert grand containing a pool? Espresso Addict (talk) 09:03, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Auxiliary ship Olterra

Template:DYKsuggestion at 23:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Verified, with slight adjustment to hook for accuracy. Gatoclass (talk) 09:44, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Bianca Riario

Template:DYKsuggestion at 23:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Castle Crags Wilderness

Template:DYKsuggestion at 23:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Charles Willing Byrd

Template:DYKsuggestion at 23:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Gerald Ford Supreme Court candidates

Template:DYKsuggestion at 23:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Granada Bridge (Ormond Beach)

Template:DYKsuggestion at 23:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Hiram Leavitt

Template:DYKsuggestion at 23:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Jonathan Leavitt (publisher)

Template:DYKsuggestion at 23:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Lambley, Northumberland

Template:DYKsuggestion at 23:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

List of rating scales for depression

Template:DYKsuggestion at 23:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Morpheein

Template:DYKsuggestion at 23:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Toto of Nepi

Template:DYKsuggestion at 23:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

U-101 class submarine

Template:DYKsuggestion at 23:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Velika Planina

Template:DYKsuggestion at 23:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Very interesting hook fact, but the article is not long enough. I count less than 1300 characters of text, and a little more than 1500 if the spaces are counted.

• prosesize.js has it at 1553—barely meets the minimum length requirement, although reviewers are still free to reject it if they find it too sparse (which I do right now). I am notifying the article creator to see if it can be expanded. —Politizer /_contribs 18:10, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Werner Reinhart

Template:DYKsuggestion at 23:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

William Wayte

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:45, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Monarchy in Ancient India

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:08, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Giant Forest Lodge Historic District

Template:DYKsuggestion at 17:19, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Verifed. Chamal 14:48, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

List of Cleveland Browns head coaches

• ... that there have been 14 Cleveland Browns head coaches since it was founded in 1946? Gary King (talk) 22:24, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• • One character short of 1500 :) BTW, the hook's not that interesting. How about:

• • • ALT1: ... the first head coach of Cleveland Browns, Paul Brown, coached the team for 17 complete seasons?

John Baptist Medina Milton extra

Template:DYKsuggestion at 13:57, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually started Dec 7, but I think this should go on the Milton anniversary, where I believe it is different enough to be combined with one of the other group on the poems. Johnbod (talk) 14:00, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Milton 400th birthday set 3 of 5

Template:DYKsuggestion 00:19, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you need "John Milton (born 400 years ago today)" on DYK. The quatercentenary will be mentioned on Misplaced Pages:Selected anniversaries/December 9, right next to DYK all day (UTC) tomorrow. --PFHLai (talk) 17:53, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Not sure I agree - personally I rarely look at those. Johnbod (talk) 18:51, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• see also the extra Milton-related article immediately above. Johnbod (talk) 18:51, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Milton 400th birthday set 5 of 5

Template:DYKsuggestion 16:44, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• Note to reviewer: Nothing personal to this nominator, but in the current revision the expansion on Samson Agonistes is only 4x (2495 characters to about 10,000 characters), 2500 short of the required expansion, so I have de-bolded it. The other article in the nomination is fine and may be reviewed. —Politizer /_contribs 16:52, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• Check your math. The first one was 2400 characters and the current is 14215. Thats more than a 5X expansion. 5 times 2400 is 12,000. That gives a buffer of over 2,215 characters. Your statement is absurd, and your actions here are highly questionable. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:39, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Miners' Union in the Czechoslovak Republic

Template:DYKsuggestion at 11:18, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• Verified with offline ref accepted AGF. --Chamal 12:53, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Tom Weisner

Template:DYKsuggestion at 04:39, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• This is a candidate for re-election in an upcoming election, and his only notability is being mayor of Aurora, Illinois (the job for which he is seeking re-election). Therefore, Misplaced Pages needs to be cautious about showcasing him on the main page in a DYK.
  The hook seems misleading as currently worded, in that it doesn't say that the WiFi installation attempt did not succeed -- I read the hook as indicating it was successful, but the article indicates that there were problems, and my reading of the sources indicates to me that the initiative has completely fizzled out.
  My gut instinct is that this article should not be featured in DYK; featuring it there could give him or his opponents some free political advertising (who gets the benefit depends on the hook's wording). --Orlady (talk) 22:46, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• I don't think DYK should exclude articles because it might give an advantage to one politician over another. However, hooks for candidate for re-election should receive heighten scruinty 'cause they got (or should have) the BLP and active politician tag on the talk page. -- Suntag ☼ 23:49, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• In October, I had multiple DYKs with candidates for public office. Both Richard Cordray (October 21) and Steve Driehaus (October 28) were placed on the mainpage. Weisner's race has less at stake because 1. it is a primary election; 2. the election is ten weeks away; 3. the race is only for a smallish city. 4. he is an incumbent. For each of these reasons he has less to gain from main page exposure than either of the above who were allowed on the main page. What gives with the new policy?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:09, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
• P.S. the book is still out on whether it was successful because as I understand it they have not decided what course of action to take.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:11, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• Even if it's just an incumbent and even if he's already got the election in the bag, it is still an election. Some people might see us as tacitly supporting "the man" (or "the machine" or whatever you want to call it) by giving front-page mention to the mainstream candidate and not mentioning others. —Politizer /_contribs 06:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• Why wasn't this an issue with Cordray or Driehaus. Everyone who wants to create an article has ten weeks to create one if they think Weisner has an unfair advantage. We are not giving him coverage on election day, but rather ten weeks before the primary.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:36, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
• You can take the template off while it is on the main page.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:37, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• I don't know what happened with Cordray or Driehaus. I was just giving my opinion on this issue; all I can say about those others is OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. —Politizer /_contribs 06:43, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• Please consider proposing an alternate hook. I think that may help move things forward. -- Suntag ☼ 13:36, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• Oh. I see. Here are some alternatives:

• (alt 1)... that Tom Weisner volunteered for the Peace Corps for five years in rain forests on the Island of Guadalcanal in the Solomon Islands?
• (alt 2)... that Tom Weisner resigned his position as Aurora's Director of Community Services during an E. coli bacteria outbreak in order to run for Mayor?
• (alt 3)... that when Barack Obama visited Template:City-state three days after Democrat Tom Weisner's Mayoral primary election victory he did not endorse him?
• (alt 4)... that Aurora Mayor Tom Weisner once considering outlawing untimely holiday decorations, when citizens complained of Christmas decorations abounding during the summer?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:10, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• Hooks 2–4 are all somewhat negative—hook 2 is extremely negative, 3 is maybe not such a big deal (but still a bit negative for me), and 4 sounds like a criticism of his policy. This is the reason I have a hard time passing election-related noms....can't say negative stuff because of BLP, and can't stay positive stuff because of neutrality (unless you are making it a double-nom where you say something about both, or all, candidates). —Politizer /_contribs 15:30, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
• A little more about why I'm complaining about election hooks. I already mentioned that some of those hooks are negative, but even with hook 1, which is positive, we could still have issues. Let's say for arguments' sake that 30% of the people in this city don't like Weisner and don't plan on voting for him. If any of those people log onto WP when this is up and see WP saying "this is a great guy, he did Peace Corps!" they're going to lose a lot of respect for WP. —Politizer /_contribs 15:33, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• Echoing Politizer: Regardless of what the hook says, I have a vision of the local newspaper or a local TV station running a news story about this guy's being featured on Misplaced Pages's main page. If the hook is neutral or positive, I also envision his re-election campaign using his main page appearance for public relations. --Orlady (talk) 15:40, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

The Booze News

Template:DYKsuggestion

• Article is eligible based on length and creation date, but the hook does not check out. The first part is OK, but the second part of the hook fact is based on an examination of the newspaper's contents (basically WP:OR), not a third-party published description of the paper. Furthermore, (1) all of the references in the article are bare references (this needs to be fixed per rule D3 in User:Art LaPella/Unwritten rules), (2) ref names should be used to combine multiple callouts to the same reference, and (3) three of the sources cited (i.e., the links to CNN, Fox News, and the LA Times) turn out to be the same item, which was distributed by the Associated Press -- these citations should be revised so that it's clear that this is just one source for the factual information (but it would be OK to cite the additional links to indicate that all of these outlets carried the story). --Orlady (talk) 21:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Alim Qasimov

Template:DYKsuggestion at 04:09, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

OR

• ... that despite being laughed off stage at a music contest as a young boy, mugham singer Alim Qasimov was later declared the best vocalist of his generation?

Second Serve

Template:DYKsuggestion Otto4711 (talk) 01:37, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Article is on the short side. I count 1425 characters (1673 with spaces), and the content seems a bit thin. The article cites some good independent sources that could be used to expand it a bit. For example, it could include a summary of the "story". --Orlady (talk) 16:40, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Yep, official count is 1395 using prosize.js. Adding a section summarizing the content of the documentary would push it over the minimum. —Politizer /_contribs 16:55, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Illustrated Sporting and Dramatic News

... that in 1883, a dozen years before Oscar Wilde was convicted for Gross Indecency, the Illustrated Sporting and Dramatic News published a cartoon showing him in convict dress? (started by User:Xn4 with assistance by self) -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:52, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

• I don't know what "convict dress" means or what its significance is. That issue needs to be addressed in both the hook and the article itself. —Politizer /_contribs 22:49, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• I changed it to "dressed as a prisoner". OK? -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:57, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• It's a phrase equivalent to prison uniform and I have just created a redirect from convict dress to that effect. - Dravecky (talk) 23:00, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks. I restored it to the way it was and added the link as you suggest. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:38, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• But I still don't see the connection between convict dress and Wilde's "Gross Indecency." I suggest the following alt hook:

• ALT1: ... that in 1883, a dozen years before Oscar Wilde was sentenced to hard labor for Gross Indecency, the Illustrated Sporting and Dramatic News published a cartoon showing him dressed as a prisoner? —Politizer /_contribs 23:50, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't mind your Alt. hook. I think the point that User:Xn4 was making was that the cartoon was prescient in so depicting Wilde, long before any accusation of a crime was brought against Wilde, then at the top of his popularity. I think this was a very obvious connection on its face. I see that you altered the article to take away Xn4's characterization of this connection. No one in 1895 would have looked back through issues of the magazine to make this connection then, but I don't think it's WP:OR to simply note the weird juxtaposition of these two facts, apparent from looking at the date of the cartoon and knowing (in retrospect) the date of Wilde's incarceration. But you're the DYK expert, so I am happy to take your advice on the best hook. Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:44, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I removed "with uncanny foresight" because it's a side comment that doesn't really add any tangible information, and is a little more evaluative than what we usually aim for (at least, judging by my meager experience here at WP). It's not bad writing or anything, it just wasn't WP style...and as far as I can tell, the article doesn't claim anywhere that ISDN was trying to make predictions about Wilde or anything, so referring to them as having "foresight" seems to be giving them a bit more credit than necessary. In any case, I don't think it's a huge deal either way; if you want to add it back, it won't bar the article from DYK or anything (although I imagine that some other editor will remove it again once you reach peer review or GAN or something like that). Anyway, I don't have any problems with the article as it stands now, but we'll have to wait for someone else to review this nom (as I can't verify my own ALT hook). —Politizer /_contribs 05:56, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

"convict dress" — I'm sorry not to have cleared this up before. The point about "convict dress" is that it's the exact term used in the book cited, while "serious slur" papaphrased "a most serious imputation". At p. 322: "As early as 1883 the Illustrated Sporting and Dramatic News had cartooned Wilde in convict dress — a most serious imputation..." (See here) I'll add this to the footnote. I haven't seen the cartoon, but almost certainly Wilde would have been shown in a rough suit with figurative arrow-heads stencilled on it. This outfit was once really used in British prisons and is the traditional way for British cartoonists to indicate prison dress. (See here and here.) Xn4 (talk) 01:26, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Velocette KTT

Template:DYKsuggestion Thruxton 19:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

• Length and history good, but the hook is quite wordy. I would suggest the following (since I don't know the technical jargon, there may be factual inaccuracies; please correct them):

• ALT1: ... that the Velocette KTT was the first motorcycle to have a gear shift that was operated by the feet rather than the hands?
• ALT2: ... that the positive-stop foot gear change first used in the Velocette KTT motorcycle has become the standard for motorcycles today? —Politizer /_contribs 07:21, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Klonoa: Door to Phantomile (Wii)

Template:DYKsuggestion at 09:24, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

• Currently tagged for merger with Klonoa: Door to Phantomile, which is not a new article (and wouldn't make five-fold expansion with the merger). We should wait for the outcome of that before promoting this, I feel. Olaf Davis | Talk 18:16, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Jon Poll

Template:DYKsuggestion at 08:11, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

• It's frustrating not to know why Roach had to back out (and the original source doesn't say so, so there's not much we can do about this hook unless you have more sources), but in the meantime here is an alternate wording of the same hook:

• ALT... that Jon Poll became the director of teen film Charlie Bartlett after the original choice for director, Jay Roach, had to back out of the job? —Politizer /_contribs 06:11, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• It's also frustrating that the whole (short) story can't fit in the hook - that Poll called Roach to ask about another of the same screenwriter's scripts, but ended up directing this one by pure coincidence that he phoned the guy who turned it down earlier in the day. —97198 (talk) 05:59, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
• The best I could come up with (which is both badly worded and well over the character limit) is: ... that director Jon Poll asked Jay Roach if he had heard of screenwriter Gustin Nash, one of whose scripts Poll had read, when Roach suggested that Poll direct another of Nash's screenplays which he had backed out of? —97198 (talk) 06:07, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Conlan Carter

Template:DYKsuggestion

• No inline citation for this. Of the five refs in the article, three of them are IMDB. —Politizer /_contribs 06:00, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Second mole in Toronto terrorism case

Template:DYKsuggestion at 18:45, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Fascinating article, and the hook is eye-catching as well, but maybe we should feature a hook that's more about his activities as a mole, rather than unrelated eccentricities in his lifestyle. Here's my suggestion:

• ALT: ... that the identity of the second police mole in the 2006 Toronto terrorism arrests has never been revealed?
• ALT2: ... that ... that the identify of the second police mole to infiltrate a 2006 terrorist plot in Toronto has never been revealed? —Politizer /_contribs 22:42, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Articles created/expanded on December 4

Pittsburgh Stars

The article, Pittsburgh Stars, is a good subject, if someone were to take the time to add appropriate citations and nominate it.Cbl62 (talk) 06:50, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

John Barbato

Template:DYKsuggestion Cbl62 (talk) 16:30, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

• His age upon release is not mentioned in the article. There is no source stating he was a "capo". There is one that he was a "captain"; is this the same thing? If so, the hook should match the article or vice-versa. The hook reads strangely. It can be interpreted as meaning that he was charged with being a capo in 2008 and then released that same year. Maybe something like "... that "Johnny Sausage" Barbato was released from prison in 2008 after having spent XX months incarcerated on charges of being a capo for the Genovese crime family?" Otto4711 (talk) 20:30, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Footnotes 3 and 4 include the language charging him with being a "capo" or "captain" in the Genovese family, and the age is confirmed by his birthdate and release date, both dates reflected in the article. I think the release of a capo in America's most notorious crime family at age 74 is part of what makes the hook interesting. How about the following alt hook?Template:DYKsuggestion

• alt ... that "Johnny Sausage" Barbato, charged with being a "capo" or "captain" in the Genovese crime family, was released from prison in July 2008 at age 74? Cbl62 (talk) 06:07, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• His DOB is unreferenced and readers shouldn't have to do the math themselves. Otto4711 (talk) 10:19, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• There are a couple cites that reference his date of birth, and I've now added an in-line cite for that fact. Accordingly, both his DOB and his date of release from prison now have verifiable in-line cites.Cbl62 (talk) 18:18, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• The hook seems to be negative and somewhat personal information about a living individual....yeah, sure, he's a criminal who has pleaded guilty, but still, I'm not sure how BLP and our rules jive with that. —Politizer /_contribs 22:43, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

When it comes to persons who are known principally for their connection to organized crime or terrorism, I don't believe BLP applies -- so long as there's very solid support for the fact. For example, one of the Top 5 DYK hooks of all times featured a "Most Wanted" reference (DYK ... that in April 2008, Forbes listed Omid Tahvili as one of the world's ten most wanted fugitives?). In that case, Tahvili was wanted. In this case, Johnny Sausage has been convicted on multiple occasions for his involvement in organized crime. I don't think BLP applies to such a case, even less than it would to Tahvili.Cbl62 (talk) 23:47, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

That's true. I guess I was concerned less about him and more about his fam, but I dunno. I'm not very familiar with the BLP guidelines anyway. —Politizer /_contribs 01:07, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Over and above the possible BLP issues, I don't find this hook terribly interesting or unusual. Lots of members of organized-crime groups, and indeed many unorganized criminals, have been released from prison very late in their lives. Daniel Case (talk) 05:18, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Not really analogous to compare "Johnny Sausage" to your average criminal being released from prison. He's one of the top "capo's" in the most notorious organized crime family in America. I thought it was interesting and unusual for a leading crime boss to be released in his old age, and his unusual moniker alone caught my eye, but we all have different tastes, I guess. Cbl62 (talk) 07:14, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

That's true; I would click on this hook just for the name. Mainly I was worried about the fact that, if Barbato still has family around, they might not be happy to see this reminder of his crime made so public...but at a second glance, I'm noticing that he was released back in July, so it might be less sensitive now, and regardless I don't know if BLP has clear guidelines about family stuff anyway. So I'm not going to stand in the way of this hook, given that I'm not familiar with BLP anyway. —Politizer /_contribs 16:03, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Joseph Margiotta

Template:DYKsuggestion at 17:03, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

• Everything in the article is fine, but I'm not a big fan of this hook. This sounds like the sort of sweet nothings that people always say when they address a crowd. ("Thank you, New York! You've been great!") It's cool that he got praised by Nixon, but I would suggest finding a different hook. —Politizer /_contribs 04:33, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Mercury Monterey

Template:DYKsuggestion at 02:08, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Added a picture. --74.13.129.191 (talk) 03:43, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

- This is the only thing cited in the entire article. —Ceran 03:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• Poor referencing. —Politizer /_contribs 17:32, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Expiring Noms

Articles created/expanded on December 3

Fleet Foxes

Template:DYKsuggestion at 05:03, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

OR

• ... that Fleet Foxes (pictured) received over a quarter of a million Myspace plays in two months despite having never released any of their work?

Five-fold expansion is confirmed. I haven't looked into the hook facts. Orlady (talk) 18:00, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Embryological origins of the mouth and anus

Template:DYKsuggestion New article, self-nom at 20:03, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• Ooh, this is going to be fun.... I personally don't find it offensive, but I think a lot of people will be hesitant to put anus-related stuff on the front page. Also, as a side thing, using first-person in the hook ("our") should probably be avoided. Anyway, I'll think about this one a bit, but in the meantime it might be good to suggest one or two alternate hooks (although I'm not sure if it's possible to avoid having explicit anus stuff in the hook, given the subject matter of the article). —Politizer /_contribs 20:07, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I've amended the hook; and I hope that this important scientific issue isn't censored because it refers to an anatomical organ. Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 20:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

It's not censorship. There are frequently issues of decorum regarding what goes on the front page (just recently at DYK we've had large debates over hooks about pornographic films; on April Fool's Day 2008 people decided not to put an image of a bird defecating on the front page; and the featured article on Jenna Jameson or whatever her name is has never been featured on the front page because of its subject matter), but that doesn't mean the article isn't valuable. It's a good article to have in the encyclopedia, but we have to be careful how we present it to the front page. As I meant to imply in my first comment (by asking for alternate hooks), I would like to see this article featured on the front page, but I also want to make sure we adhere to a standard of decorum so that no one ends up creating a big stink over this. Please do not go accusing people of censorship, because that will just sour the entire discussion and that's not fun for anyone. —Politizer /_contribs 20:15, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Justified censorship is still censorship. But perhaps we can trust readers not to blush and titter.--Wetman (talk) 22:07, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)No one is saying we should blot this article out of Misplaced Pages so it never sees the sun. I'm just saying there are some articles that some people think we shouldn't shout about from the rooftops (by putting them on the main page). They exist and they're good sources of information and they should remain on Misplaced Pages, but that doesn't mean people should go out of their way to put them prominently on the front page.

If you didn't notice already, I already said that I don't find this offensive. But I am aware that different people have different sensitivities, and judging by the conversations that surrounding recent pornography-related hooks I would not be surprised if some DYK reviewers would be at least a tiny bit concerned about this hook. I'm just trying to address those concerns, so don't go around calling me or anyone else at DYK a censor. Deleting an article from Misplaced Pages because it's offensive is censorship; deciding not to stick it on the front page is not.

I'm beginning to think there must be some DYK version of Godwin's Law. "As the number of DYK nominations grows, the probability of someone shouting 'Censorship!' approaches 1." Jesus christ. —Politizer /_contribs 22:22, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

(addendum) And, for the record, I'm not trying to keep your article from the front page. When this started I was just trying to get you to propose a hook that would cause as little controversy as possible. —Politizer /_contribs 22:25, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that this article looks at the topic of embryogenesis from a juvenile angle ("farts and burps"). The underlying topic has legitimacy, but not its packaging in this particular article. It's "interesting" that the article does not link to embryology, embryogenesis, or similar related articles that cover (or should cover) the same territory. I think the article probably is a candidate for deletion or merger, not for featuring on the main page. --Orlady (talk) 22:17, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• Per the article, in humans the anus forms first then burrows through to become the mouth at the other end. So the hook is currently ass-backwards. (don't hit me!) Otto4711 (talk) 07:25, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

  The formation of the digestive tract is the key morphological criterion for separating the two major clades of bilaterian, the protostomes and deuterostomes. There are a number of conflicting views and it is an active area of research. I'm a palaeontologist (for whom the distinction is very important) and don't have an embryological background, so feel free to introduce related wikilinks where they are necessary. Therefore I take strong exception to the anything about the article being termed "juvenile". From what you say, it seems to follow that that an article about colon cancer would be juvenile. I don't think that people afflicted with that disease tend to go around tittering about it.

  In any case, the discussion seems to have become sidetracked. The article relates to an important theme in science that would otherwise have to be duplicated at protostome, deuterostome, bilaterian, urbilaterian and probably a few embryology pages, so there can be no case for its deletion. I can't see anybody taking offence at seeing the anatomical term "anus" in an encyclopaedia. And the DYK rules don't seem to mention what sort of article is permitted. (In fact, scientific articles tend to be under-represented). Putting it on the front page might bring it to the attention of an embryologist who would be willing to make large improvements to the scope of the article. Does anyone have a concrete reason to oppose the nomination, or an alternative hook to suggest? Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 18:03, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem with the article as such, but the hook seems to contradict the article, which gives two different version of the way the alimentary canal is formed, neither of them the same as the version in the hook. Gatoclass (talk) 09:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Whoops, well spotted - I've rewritten the hook. That's a rather embarrassing mistake, thanks for pointing it out. Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 13:48, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I'll go ahead and verify it then; no one else seems to have been concerned about the appropriateness so that's not a problem for me either. For the record, it seems like Otto also spotted the contradiction in the hook earlier. Anyway, everything looks fine to me now. —Politizer /_contribs 15:59, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Scott Thompson Baker

Template:DYKsuggestion Mess around with the guy in shades all you like - don't mess around with the girl in gloves! (talk) 07:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• P.S. The article's text, aside from the references, the chapters, or anything else, is 1604 bytes. Mess around with the guy in shades all you like - don't mess around with the girl in gloves! (talk) 23:04, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• Not exactly a rivetting hook. Couldn't you find something a bit more interesting? Gatoclass (talk) 02:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• Take a look at this version of the DYK template: Look at the one at the bottom, about Jillian Clare. That hook, in my opinion, was no more interesting than this one; yet they included it. Mess around with the guy in shades all you like - don't mess around with the girl in gloves! (talk) 07:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm well aware some crummy hooks sneak through, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to avoid them. I'm sure you can come up with something a little more interesting if you put your mind to it. Gatoclass (talk) 09:52, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

And BTW I don't think the hook you pointed out was so bad. Being nominated for a significant award five times and winning twice is an unusual achievement. Just winning this or that award, unless it's a major award, is nothing special, most actors have a few awards to point to at the end of their career. Gatoclass (talk) 11:17, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• I looked, and can't find anything interesting to say about him (at least, not anything hook-interesting). It looks like, unless the article is expanded soon, we have to choose between boring hook or failing the nomination. —Politizer /_contribs 22:36, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Moduin

Template:DYKsuggestion at 05:43, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• No inline citation for that hook, and I don't even really know what it means anyway. —Politizer /_contribs 05:54, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Footnote 7? And if you don't know what the "Carolingian Renaissance" is, click the link. If it's "Golden Rome" (a quotation in quotation marks) that troubles you, click the link. I would have thought that renaissance=rebirth to all but children today, but I know I'm probably wrong, so go ahead and reword it. Srnec (talk) 06:01, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

It's not a problem with the terms you used (don't worry, I know what "renaissance" means, for real), it's just that I really don't understand the point the hook is trying to make. "writes about the rebirth of 'Golden Rome'" would be clearer than "refers to the rebirth of 'Golden Rome' during his time," if that is still accurate. —Politizer /_contribs 06:05, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't get the difference between "writes about" and "refers to". The point I was trying to make was that Moduin explicitly refers to a rebirth of Classical (Golden) Rome during the Carolingian Renaissance(=Rebirth). Maybe you can find a better, but still terse, way of putting this. Srnec (talk) 06:15, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

In general, one "refers" to something that is already a given (so when you encounter "refers to," you expect it to be something that you're already aware of and have heard about). But since "Golden Rome" is unclear and I don't really know what it is, the use of "refers to" there makes the whole proposition a little confusing for me. I don't know if that helps. —Politizer /_contribs 06:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Mentions? Srnec (talk) 06:34, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• Golden Rome was from 27 BC – AD 476 / 1453. Moduin lived 770–840/3. I'm somewhat lost on the date order of things, but I don't think Golden Rome was reborn after Moduin died. Is the hook basically saying that Moduin incorrectly predicted that the Roman Empire would be reborn? -- Suntag ☼ 10:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• Per this search, apparently Moduin said "Golden Rome is restored and reborn to the world" as the Carolingian Renaissance. Moduin was on the court of Charlemagne and Charlemagne had conquered Italy and was crowned Imperator Augustus by Pope Leo III. Basically, Moduin was trying gain favor by flattering Charlemagne by saying that Charlemagne was as great as the old Roman Emperors. Apparently, Charlemagne wasn't as great as the old Roman Emperors or the Carolingian Renaissance was not just like Golden Rome, so scholars do not speak well of Moduin. Many of the references do not identify Moduin by name as saying "Golden Rome is restored and reborn to the world", which apparently is a famous saying. -- Suntag ☼ 10:52, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Articles created/expanded on December 2

Bovista dermoxantha

Template:DYKsuggestion

• There is only a reference at the end of the paragraph, not near the hook fact. Also, could you format the footnotes with relevant author/title/date/publisher/accessdate information? (Right now several of them are bare URLs.) —Politizer /_contribs 15:46, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Hmm...the problem is that the link refers to the entire section as a referenece...I'll try converting the footnotes for the URLs, though; I even did the literary sources. Cheers. Imperat§ r 14:01, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

For the reference, included original research centers and dates. Anything more?

As for the footnote that is meant to cover the entire paragraph...I figured that's how it was, but unfortunately using a single citation to cover a large amount of information is undesirable, especially when that source is not freely available online (as is the case with this) and is highly technical, making it unlikely that most readers will be able to go through and find the relevant information themselves. While some users think it's ugly to do this, my policy is to have a footnote for every bit of factual information, even if it means repeating the same footnote 10 times in a row.

In this case, though, since you're directly reporting the results of a single study and your writing follows a logical path, it would probably be acceptable to include just two footnotes to the source: one at the first mention of the study (so probably the first sentence), and one again at the end of the paragraph. —Politizer /_contribs 21:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

As for cleaning up the references...including the dates, publisher, and authors is a good start, although it should be done for all the references (as opposed to just the hook reference). Also, it's nice to hide the URL by putting it on the journal title...ie, "Example" is better than "http://www.example.org Example". —Politizer /_contribs 21:40, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Done. Anything else? Cheers. Sincerely, Imperat§ r 22:36, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I've done some cleanup editing in the article and I accessed and reviewed the cited source. I believe that the contributor has not accurately interpreted the study that is cited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orlady (talk • contribs)

I haven't looked at the source yet, but I find the hook rather confusingly worded. What exactly is being meant there? Nsk92 (talk) 02:09, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

The hook, as proposed, appears to indicate that this fungus was evaluated for use in controlling some type of pest. Actually, the fungus itself is considered to be a pest. The "Observations" section of the article is a rehash of a single article in a scientific journal that discusses the effect of temperature on the growth of three species of fungus, including this one. --Orlady (talk) 03:24, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Per the article, the same temperature-dependent tests used to predict when pest insects would be born was applied to Bovista dermoxantha. Basically, the results of the test were something like the hotter it gets, the more of these mushrooms you gonna see. That's not exactly what the results were but the research seem to look at the temperatures Bovista dermoxantha grows best. The article contains a lot of big city, tall tower words and concepts and might benefit from some revision. -- Suntag ☼ 19:36, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Articles created/expanded on December 1

Gilwell Ada's Hoeve

Template:DYKsuggestion at 23:00, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• meets requirements as far as I can tell. First ref is also in English. Wim is a highly reliable Dutch editor who verified the refs too. Support. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
• Several issues with this entry. The reference cited to support the hook (footnote no. 2 in the article), is this site I don't read Dutch but it does not seem to me like the content of this reference supports the hook. In particular, I don't see the date 1923 appear anywhere at the page. Similarly, I do not see the word "Gilwell" appear there. Second, I would like to understand what exactly the site is. It has the appearance of a personal webpage (although again I may be wrong as I don't read Dutch) in which case this reference most likely would not qualify as WP:RS. Perhaps the supporting nominator or the article creator can comment on this? Or someone else Dutch-speaking here? Nsk92 (talk) 02:13, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

"Piet Kroonenbergs Padvinderskroniek" is a collection of documents made by an official historian, Piet J. Kroonenberg, of the World Organization of the Scout Movement. Those documents are among the most reliable sources on Scouting. --Egel _Reaction? 13:35, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. I am still not clear on the nature of this website. Is it his personal webpage? Or is it a subpage of the website of the World Organization of the Scout Movement? In the latter case, it would probably be acceptable per WP:RS but in the former I think not. Most scholars, both in sciences and humanities, have personal websites that contain some as yet unpublished research, preprints, etc. My understanding is that such personal webpages should generally not be used for WP:RS purposes (at any rate not as a main ref for a DYK hook, where WP:V standards are supposed to be quite stringent) until the research in question is actually published. Also, I am still not clear on the issue of content. Is there anything on the webpage in question (and if yes, what exactly) that directly confirms the information given in the hook? As I said, I do not see the terms from the hook like "1923", "Gilwell" and "Hoeve" appear on the webpage given as ref. If there is a further subpage there that actually contains the relevant info, perhaps that should be linked instead. Nsk92 (talk) 15:32, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you like this link better as starting point, a page on the site of Scouting Nederland. And a link with the terms from the hook like "1923", "Gilwell" and "Hoeve" Image:1ste_Gillwell_Leiderscursus.jpg. I have changed the ref to a document in staid. --Egel _Reaction? 16:13, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

If it is the website of the national scouting organization, then I think it would be fine as a source for a historical fact about scouting. However, the link does need to contain information explicitly supporting the statement as given in the hook. It is unclear to me whether or not the webpage does contain such information. If yes, could you comment a bit more on where and how it is supported there? If not and there is a further subpage of the Scouting Nederland that contains the relevant info, then such a subpage should be used as a reference instead. Thanks, Nsk92 (talk) 16:32, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

• found evidence of earlier Wood Badge Scouting leadership training organized outside of the United Kingdom / British Empire, easter 1923 in Cappy and Chamarande, France . Inside the British Empire but outside the United Kingdom was Gilwell Park, Victoria, Australia in 1920--Egel _Reaction? 17:45, 4 December 2008 (UTC) issues adressed
• ALT1 - that the Dutch Scouting campsite Gilwell Ada's Hoeve was one of the first Wood Badge leadership training centers outside the British Empire? -- Suntag ☼ 18:00, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

The text should indeed have read ....outside the British Empire, as indeed Wood Badge training quickly spread within the British Empire. The UK denomination was an error: sorry. The French example is new to me: it looks like it ran simultaneous to the Dutch one (started easter, but the camp seems to have been in September). I also saw a not so very informative reference (in any language) to an Austrian Wood Badge training in that same period. So given all that, I propose a humbler text (nearly as Suntag's; thanks for the suggestion):

• ALT2: ... that in July 1923, the Dutch Scouting campsite Gilwell Ada's Hoeve in Ommen was host to one of the first Wood Badge Scouting leadership training outside the British Empire?

Egel and I have already adjusted the article accordingly. I hope that the explanations by Egel about the references (even for those not able to read Dutch or French) are sufficient. Wim van Dorst (talk) 20:32, 6 December 2008 (UTC).

ALT2 appears to be supported by sources (but I'm not completely sure), but the article still needs to have one or more inline citations where this fact appears. --Orlady (talk) 22:44, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Apart from the lack of an in-line citation, I am not sure if the ALT2 hook is in fact supported by the sources given. At the end of the relevant paragraph there are two refernces (ref. no 2, ref no. 3). Ref no 3 does not appear to mention the event in question at all (at least I do not see "1923" anywhere in it). An automatic google translation of Ref no 2 gives this:"Baden Po-well also had a dream. It was his dream to have a place where he could train scouting leaders. And he found that a scouting the best training could be given in the areas where the scouting game is set in nature: outside in nature. Maclaren gave the scouting movement in 1918 amid a land of the famous Epping Forest. The estate, called Gilwell Park, located on a hill which offers a magnificent view of London. In September 1919 became the first Gilwellcursus given. At the end of the training was Baden Powell that the participants had earned a souvenir. From his collection of memorabilia he collected a long necklace with wooden beads: a trophy of the Zulu War in 1888. Each student was given two beads, which the English name of the course was established: Wood Badge. Six of the original beads are still worn by the camp chief of Gilwell Park. In addition, each student should wear a special tie with the tip on a piece of the tartan (tartan) of the Maclaren clan. The tie is held together by a Turkish knot. Now, these courses worldwide in all countries where the game is played Scouting. In 1923, the course for the first time in the Netherlands in payments to "Gilwell Ada's Farm". In a similar way many Scouting volunteers from around the world to their personal functioning. Not only Dutch wear beads and so this tie. Not for nothing is Gilwellcursus, a world course ..." While the translation is pretty garbled, it does not seem to support the hook (specifically, the interpretive part about "one of the first Wood Badge Scouting leadership training outside the British Empire"). If that is all there is in terms of sources for the hook, there is too much WP:OR for my taste here. I think what is needed here is some kind of a perfectly straightforward and factual hook (even if it is not very interesting), with no room for WP:OR. There certainly seems to be enough material in Ref no. 2 for some such hook. Nsk92 (talk) 23:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Info about Austria I found here (French) The most relevant part in translation The first training camp chief Troupe performed outside the British Empire along the lines of Gilwell is not the first course Chamarande which took place at Easter 1923 (of Holy Saturday, March 31 this year, to Monday of Quasimodo) ref. Jean Despond "Pioneer Scout", Paris, 1964, p. 110, Father Sevin who received the title of DCC on 16 October 1922, but took place in Austria near Vienna from 8 to 17 September 1922, he was led by SM Miegl who had participated in the 26th over Gilwell (as Father Sevin and Michel Blanchon) and was appointed Deputy Camp Chief of Austria (ref. "Jamboree Symposium of World-wide Scouting" No. 9, January 1923, p 137, there is a photo of this camp in the central pages) . I think the facts are 1:The first Wood Badge leadership training centers outside the British Empire were founded between autumn 1922 and autumn 1923. 2:The first Wood Badge training in the Netherlands was 9 - 21 July 1923 on Ada's Hoeve. ALT1 is OK, I think, but needs a date. --Egel _Reaction? 16:03, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Egel. for clarifying sequence of 'first Wood Badge courses', and for striking out your objection. I already included the date into ALT2. There is the very informative photograph in the arcticle, that is an undoubtable reference as to the Dutch Gilwell course taking place, and your reference clearly shows it is 'one of the first' as worded in ALT2. Wim van Dorst (talk) 21:26, 7 December 2008 (UTC).

My apologies if I am being dense about this, but I still have two concerns.
(1) The French language source that Egel quotes above is an online forum, which would not normally be considered WP:RS. Knowing the fanatic attention that Scouting enthusiasts to the details of Scouting history, I imagine that it's reliable, but this looks like a problem... (2) The article still lacks inline citations for the specific statements used in the hook fact. Unfortunately, it is not enough to have citations at the end of the paragraph. --Orlady (talk) 23:23, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Orlady on both points. The French ref suggested by Egel is an online web discussion forum and does not pass WP:RS, certainly not for a DYK fact that will go to the main page. Also, there is still no inline citation (which is required by DYK rules) in the article in the sentence where the fact is mentioned. Nsk92 (talk) 02:53, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Ascot-Pullin 500

Template:DYKsuggestion at 20:16, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Without all the references, the article is too short. Please expand. Cheers. Imperat§ r 22:35, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, the reference for the hook fact is a dead link. And therefore, I also don't know if "ohv" should be linked to overhead valve or off highway vehicle ("ohv single" does need an explanation). Art LaPella (talk) 01:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

The image used may not be copyright-free: a bot transferred it from Dutch wikipedia, that's as far back as licensing info goes. Dahn (talk) 02:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Licence is PD-OUD in dutch, which is PD-Old in English. Mjroots (talk) 17:14, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but that is just a vague claim: no author is cited (even though he would have to be dead for 70 years for that to license to apply, and even though the period cited does not make it unlikely for the author to have died less than 70 years ago); also, no publishing context is given. AGF or no AGF, just because they tagged doesn't mean they know for sure. The likelihood that someone will care even if this is in breach of copyright is just about 0, but no copyrighted material makes it to the front page as a rule. Dahn (talk) 06:31, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I've expanded the article to 3,366 bytes, put over head valve in full and checked the link which for some reason wasn't working but is OK now. Interesting discussion about the pic I've got rid of it as it's not very good quality anyway Thruxton (talk) 19:57, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I still have some issues with this. The source cited doesn't say which model was the first British motorcycle to use hydraulic brakes, only that it was one of AP's, and it seems to be from someone's personal website, leaving it (to me) dubious as far as WP:RS goes. Daniel Case (talk) 10:00, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

This says the first hydraulic brakes on a motorcycle occured in 1952. See also Motorcycle firsts. Also, it isn't clear that the motorcycle was/is called the Ascot-Pullin 500. -- Suntag ☼ 16:27, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, unfortunately this article has sources that contradict one another, and the source that states the bike had hydraulic brakes is not actually specified. Also, the name of the article seems to be a neologism, all the sources just refer to the machine as the "Ascot Pullin motorcycle". This one needs a new hook I think. Gatoclass (talk) 03:11, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

DYKs for December holidays other than December 25, 2008 holidays

Note: As we did at Halloween, we are "breaking the rules" (including the unwritten ones) in that these articles were prepared in under 5 days but are being delayed. Post your DYK suggestions here on topics related to holidays of this season that are not listed at December 25 Holidays.

Suggestions:

DYKs relevant to December 25, 2008 holidays

Note: As we did at Halloween, we are "breaking the rules" (including the unwritten ones) in that these articles were prepared in under 5 days but are being delayed. Post your DYK suggestions here on topics listed at December 25 Holidays, such as Christmas, Quaid-e-Azam's Day, The feast day of Anastasia of Sirmium, and Yule.

Suggestions:

Tirggel

Template:DYKsuggestion at 10:02, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• Fantastic article! I remember having these cookies for Christmas. Length, date, and hook verified. -- Suntag ☼ 13:51, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Christmas on the River

Template:DYKsuggestion at 00:15, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• Verified. "Floats on boats" would also be an acceptable wording. —Politizer /_contribs 04:17, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Twas the Night Before Christmas (1977 TV special)

• ... that Paul Lynde was responsible for Martha Raye being cast as his mother-in-law in the 1977 TV special 'Twas the Night Before Christmas? (New article, self-nom with offline hook reference) Ecoleetage (talk) 22:25, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• Nice Christmas article! Offline reference accepted in good faith. – RyanCross (talk) 00:03, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

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Queue 4

The hooks below have been approved by a human (~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk)) and will be automatically added to the DYK template at the appropriate time.

• ... that the grave of Ethel Preston in Leeds, England, has a life-sized statue of her (pictured) stood in front of black marble doors, left ajar?
• ... that meetings between Biblical and post-Biblical characters, such as when Moses sees Rabbi Aviva teach and be martyred, are rare in Talmudic stories?
• ... that Marie-Thérèse Eyquem served in the government of Vichy France, and was later appointed a national secretary of the French Socialist Party?
• ... that An Amorous History of the Silver Screen, an exploration of more than four decades of film in China, argues that cinema is a modern folk tale?
• ... that a critic called Benjamin Britten's Tema "Sacher" a "truncated and barely coherent page " and "a pathetic fragment"?
• ... that the 1980s Beechcraft BQM-126 target drone could be launched from aircraft based on aircraft carriers?
• ... that children's author Mary Chalmers owned ten cats and a Pomeranian dog, whose poses helped her draw illustrations for her books?
• ... that in the 1917 Moscow District Duma elections, the Bolshevik Party won 97 percent of the votes of the soldiers at the heavy artillery workshops?
• ... that Flora Hommel, after being afraid of giving birth to her own child, went on to teach the Lamaze technique to more than 17,000 couples?

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Queue 5

The hooks below have been approved by a human (Z1720 (talk)) and will be automatically added to the DYK template at the appropriate time.

• ... that fictional planets of the Solar System (diagram pictured) include planets between Venus and Earth, planets on the inside of a hollow Earth, and a planet "behind the Earth"?
• ... that Sonya Friedman developed the idea of supertitles, which translate words being sung on stage in opera?
• ... that multiple scenes in Papa feature cotton-tree flowers, even though it was not scripted and the falling cotton simply kept drifting into the shot?
• ... that Canadian rapper Apt Exact, who has been described as "not gangster", was elected to the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia in 2024?
• ... that the Canaanite ivory comb contains the earliest known sentence in a Canaanite language?
• ... that schools in Wales during the Second World War were held in village halls?
• ... that Kathryn Maple won the Sunday Times Watercolour Competition twice in three years?
• ... that the apartment building the Manhasset caught fire in 1999, just as its renovation was being completed?
• ... that Chen Dingshan has been called the last heir of the Mandarin Ducks and Butterflies school?

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• ... that jam tarts (examples pictured) are pollinated by ants?
• ... that a brigade of Russian paratroopers took part in a NATO-led peacekeeping mission during the 1990s?
• ... that ...
• ... that a squirrel helped to steer viewers to its owner's OnlyFans account?
• ... that the Bronx General Post Office's roof once had a shooting range?
• ... that films were made of plays written by Anthony E. Wills after his death at a relatively young age?
• ... that an AI-generated Minecraft clone has been described as an early glimpse of the future of video games?
• ... that Thomas Fenner captained an English warship against the Spanish Armada?
• ... that the Biblical Magi dispense mysterious vision-inducing foods in the Revelation of the Magi, which a scholar proposed to be an account of ritual hallucinogen intake?

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See also

• User:AlexNewArtBot/GoodSearchResult – This is an automated list of promising new articles generated by AlexNewArtBot (talk · contribs · logs).

• Misplaced Pages Did you know