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Revision as of 06:16, 17 October 2005

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Getting nowhere, a real vote seems to be necessary

Alright, matters have gotten to a point of maximum unpleasantness and anger on all sides, in which I am perhaps more to blame than anybody else. It seems clear that there is no possible way we are going to get everyone to agree. So, it seems that we have no choice but the unpleasantness of a vote. By a vote, I don't mean an informal poll on this page. That is worthless. It should be a real vote, announced in as many places as possible (especially Misplaced Pages:Current surveys and Misplaced Pages:Requested moves.) I would suggest approval voting, with four options - the current title, Territories captured by Israel in 1967, Occupied Territories, and Israeli-occupied Territories. The option with the most votes wins, and we agree never to speak of this again. john k 19:22, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I have to disagree. All the arguments in favor of each title have been made, as far as I can tell. There has been no substantive response to a number of the points in favor of using "occupied" in the title. Unless this changes, I say that we just move the page and revert those who try to move it back unless and until they make some substantive response. Holding a vote will just give the obstructionists (we all know who they are) a chance to rally the troops and prevent the move solely by numbers rather than reasoned argument. —Charles P. (Mirv) 20:52, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Why don't you spell it out, Charles? Just exactly who are the "obstructionists", and how are they "obstructing"? Is it any wonder I've been avoiding this cesspool? Thanks for adding to the aroma. Jayjg 06:09, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Hmm...Well, I tend to think that numbers would end up favoring the move. But my instincts are really conflicted on this. On the one hand, if you read my comments yesterday and this morning, you'll see that I basically agree with you. On the other hand, I'm t fairly certain that a unilateral move will not resolve things, given the discussion so far. Obviously, I will not oppose a move, if you want to go ahead with it. Perhaps it would be better to move it, and then those who do not like the new title can, if they so desire, organize a move request which could be voted on. At any rate, I'm not going to argue about this any further. The arguments have been made, and are on the talk page. If there ends up being a vote, I will dutifully vote, but I'm not going to spend any more time shadowboxing here. john k 23:19, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't think a vote is needed either. Give it another few days and if there is no substantive reponse to the points made by you and El C, we can consider the matter closed and move the page. The editors who oppose the move would have a hard time defending their position after ignoring such a clearly expressed invitation to state their case. I think the most important thing for those of us who do want to move the page is to close ranks and agree on the new title. I think Israeli-occupied territories has the most support. If anyone disagrees, now is the time to say so. Brian Tvedt 02:07, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

This seems like the most clearly supported location - Andjam also said he was willing to accept this as the least objectionable version including the word "occupation". john k 02:18, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Frankly, I've felt discouraged to participate much on this page because it degraded to too much hostility to allow for reasonable discussion. I will likely make this my final comment before I abandon the page altogether. I'm not thrilled with "Occupied Territories" precisely because there is dispute about it, and I don't mean just between editors on this page. John's examples of other disputed name situations (i.e., Armenian Genocide) make a valid point, but I'm having difficulty bringing that to the logical conclusion that we can summarily dismiss questioning the NPOVness of any disputed name such as "Occupied Territories" just because other (perhaps apples and oranges) examples exist. I could probably live with the "occupied" title, though I feel quite strong-armed into it. Aside from the POVness of the title, I do have an even greater problem with the ambiguity of "Occupied Territories". Yes, it's popularly used, but in a variety of ways that often makes it unclear which (Israeli occupied) territories specifically are being discussed. I think more often than not, it is really just used as a synonym for the Palestinian territories. That's why I still believe the best encylopedic solution, one that Ramallite first suggested, and I concurred, but to which no one else offered any feedback, is to have a disambig page for Occupied Territories (Israeli) or Israeli-Occupied Territories, which lists several related articles, including this one which I believe should be something like Territories captured by Israel in 1967, Palestinian territories, and Status of territories captured by Israel, for starters. Since "occupied territories" can refer to different things, wouldn't a disambig page seem the most logical alternative? --MPerel 03:32, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I too have avoided this page precisely because of the unwarranted and, at times, vicious hostility - see the latest anon comments below for another example. This Talk: page has been made needlessly unpleasant, as has the article itself: when new editors make it their "mission" to stay on Misplaced Pages only to battle other editors, fill Talk: pages with personal attacks on and lies about other editors, recruit people to revert war for them, even giving them explicit instructions on how to do so , then recruit people to vote for them , well, why would the victims of their abuse want to stick around? Jayjg 06:04, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Do we need to harp on this? Why don't we try to constructively engage, and ignore the trolls and trolling as best we can? john k 06:16, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

MPerel, just a brief point - one of the arguments which has been made is that there really isn't very much dispute over the use of "Occupied Territories" - it's been pointed out by me and others that even a more right wing media outlet like the Jerusalem Post is willing to use it, and that the Israeli government accepted that its position in the West Bank was one of occupation in its arguments before the Israel Supreme Court on the West Bank fence/wall.

At any rate, in terms of ambiguity, I'm not really sure how to deal with this - I agree that sometimes just the West Bank and Gaza are meant. But it seems to me that almost anyone would admit that technically, the Golan Heights are also a part of the occupied territories, and that the Sinai was. This article, as it is, contains a summary of what we mean by "Occupied Territories" and links to the other article - notably Palestianian territories. So I don't see that as a huge problem. If we did go the disambiguation page route, though, I'd suggest that the disambiguation page be Occupied territories, that the current occupied territories article be moved to occupied territory, and that the disambig page link to the general occupied territory article, this page at Territories captured by Israel in 1967, the Palestinian territories article, and the article about the legal dispute (such as it is). I think this would be an acceptable solution.

BTW, isn't "Palestinian territories" just as disputed and potentially POV a term as "Occupied territories," if not considerably more so? Why was there never a fight over there about naming? john k 04:13, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

John, you fucked up when SlimVirgin et al upped the ante and you folded. Everyone that has participated in this 'debate' (this includes Andjam and MPerel, believe it or not) truly understands your (very well laid out) substantive arguments - that's not the point! The discussions here has never really been about this article's title/content - it has been about control - about if a small JCfPA associated group should be in control of information about the politics of Israel, and related topics, here on Misplaced Pages. Now, you have given 'Candi of California' (guess what two userids she has) a way out of this situation, even if you 'accomplish' a title change now, I assure you; a couple of months from now this article will not have the word "occupied" in its title - and it will be partly due to the fact that you allowed yourself to be manipulated. Please read this. --RemTene VerbaSequentur 04:56, 17 October 2005 (UTC)