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Welcome!

Hello, Franamax, welcome Misplaced Pages! Hope little Franamax like. Here helpful pages:

• Hrair pillars Misplaced Pages
• Make article
• Help!
• Help, help!
• Make article bigger
• Er... what this for..? How write picky ?

Hope little user enjoy and edit smart like Bishzilla! Please sign talk pages using, er ... many tildes (~~~~) ('zilla can only count to three, regret!), clever automagic feature. If helpless, check out questions wikipedia, ask on 'zilla talk, or put {{helpme}} on own talk, get help soon. Again, welcome! 

Now that's a welcome page, had to steal it myself. Thanks Bishzilla! Franamax 02:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Plagiarism dispute

Thanks for helping moderate the dispute at User talk:Bobby fletcher. I apologize if I was a bit snappy with you in my earlier response; that user rubs me the wrong way and I should probably make myself take a wikibreak whenever he starts editing. Anyway, hopefully your advice will ring truer with him than mine has! —Politizer /_contribs 07:23, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

He he, snippy to me is when you put the f-word all over my user page. You were justified in your comment, I was still getting up to speed and hadn't seen yet where you had made the rewording. Do take your own advice and try to calm down when someone's bugging you, and especially try to get other people involved - saving the wiki all by yourself rarely works out :) Hopefully I can help out, but we shall see. Franamax (talk) 07:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Plagiarism and WikiProject Ships

Since you are involved with setting the guidelines on plagiarism at Misplaced Pages, I was wondering if I could ask you about something that's had me scratching my head lately. A week or so ago I had a discussion with some people from WikiProject Ships when I noticed an article that was, in its entirety, copied from the Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships; I made a comment at the talk page saying that I thought it was plagiarized, and several people from WP:SHIPS came and told me that copying from DANFS is not plagiarism and, in fact, is common in articles at that WikiProject (apparently DANFS is one of their top resources).

There is some brief discussion of that issue in the following two sections of my talk page: User talk:Politizer#Speedy at USS Samar (PG-41)‎, User talk:Politizer#PD text.

I'm not bringing this up to tattle-tale or anything, I'm just curious about what implications that has for the WP:Plagiarism guideline (or vice-versa), as WP:Plagiarism says that PD materials still shouldn't be copied (a stance I agree with), but WP:SHIPS (and I assume other similar WikiProjects) accept it.

Thanks, —Politizer /_contribs 08:04, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I think I understand...at USS Samar (PG-41) they have copied the DANFS text but included " This article incorporates text from the public domain Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships." in the references section, which I guess is technically ok with the first sentence of WP:Plagiarism#Acceptable sources (although it still makes me uneasy, as the reference template given implies that the article is only composed partially of DANFS information, rather than directly copied from there in its entirety). It's not an area of Misplaced Pages where I'm active (I only stumbled across that page when I was cleaning up double redirects after I moved a different page), so it's nothing I'll lose sleep over, at least. —Politizer /_contribs 08:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

(addendum) I guess the question is whether those attribution templates should give editors a free pass to copy at will. There seems to be some ambiguity at WP:Plagiarism right now...under the entry for CCA it says that copied text must be attributed even if it is not copyrighted, and the wording "Even though a source is labeled as "free", you cannot copy it and pass it off as your own work" before the section about PD also suggests the same thing, but the quote given later ("Misplaced Pages will naturally refer to and include some material that comes from outside sources. This material may be in the public domain, may be included under a fair use argument, or it may be under a license compatible with the license used on Misplaced Pages") and the existeence of Category:Attribution templates suggests otherwise. Maybe I'll start a conversation at the category or somewhere like that—personally I think everything should be attributed whether or not it is PD, and I think the attribution templates have a lot of potential for abuse (from what, admittedly little, I've seen so far) but I don't see that changing anytime soon... —Politizer /_contribs 08:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

(Arghh - edit conflict on my own talk page! :)

Wooo! I'm glad you found that yourself, now I don't have to keep trying to marshal the whole story :) (Including getting dragged into Featured Article discussions concerning DANFS) Basically, yes, there are some sources acceptable for copying as long as they have the attribution template. 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica is another one, if it has {{EB1911}}. There's lots (and lots) of discussion at WT:Plagiarism on the subject of exactly how to attribute copying from public domain works - if you're so inclined, read the whole thing and make your own comments. There's some pretty passionate views there, your own will be welcomed. Franamax (talk) 08:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

And yes, direct copying from PD sources with only general attribution via attribution template is contentious. The problem is that whether or not we frown on it now, it has been done in the past - particularly EB1911, which was used as a direct source for a very large number of articles around 2004 or so. Thus, we have to accomodate history as well as present-day. The Plagiarism talk page has commentary on these issues, from editors --far-- more experienced than myself with the history and is well worth a read. Franamax (talk) 08:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Excellent...I'll definitely take some time to check out the discussion. My hope is that the guidelines about attributions can be changed and then people can go back and clean up after the old 2004-ish stuff...after all, WP used to have thousands of images of CD album covers, and sometime in the past year or two those all got cleaned up after some policy decision (I think?). Anyway, I would definitely be interested in contributing to the discussion and construction of the plagiarism guidelines...technically I don't really have time to get involved in that, but who am I kidding, I'll never be able to stop myself from getting involved in stuff that I don't have time for. —Politizer /_contribs 08:45, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Tsay Keh Dene/Sekani

That was a wrong dab anyway - Sekani includes other groups than just the Tsay Keh Dene, despite the homonymy, just as Dene includes other groups than those currently only-listed on that page (and it includes the Sekani, in fact). Sekani is a large group, Tsay Keh Dene is a local group of them. It gets more copmlicated wth article titles as many bands use their ethnographic name as t he name of the band govenrment, as in this case; so the usual separation of ethno and government articles requires some creative titling (and content redundancy...). I'm surprised there's no Sekani article, I'll throw it by the in-house expert on Athapaskan peoples User:Billposer, who's director of the Yinka Dene Language Institute.....Skookum1 (talk) 13:47, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, there is a Sekani article; guess I mis-read your edit comment....Skookum1 (talk) 13:48, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Quantum Quest: A Cassini Space Odyssey

This was the most work I have ever done on any one article and boy... are my fingers tired. I am not asking for a vote at AfD, as I think I saved the article... but would like your input as to me work and suggestions for possible improvements. Thanks, Schmidt, 00:50, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Wow, that is a whole pile of work - well done! Do you subscribe to any trade mags? I'm prejudiced toward sources they had to kill a tree to make ;)

Do not subscribe to any zines. Hoping to find online archives. Tried to make it a strong as I could barring that. Schmidt, 03:25, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Specifics for the article:

• The "Background" (was Backgound, but me fix that :) is a little too promo-y. "takes you" -> "takes the viewer" (or reword); "all star cast" -> "all-star cast" (and all-star sounds a little subjective to me); "Never before have on going missions been..." -> on-going (and bull-crap, I saw an Imax movie of the shuttle 20 years ago, maybe you mean a fiction movie); "family friendly film experience that entertains while educating" - subjective promo (but maybe "intends to...").

Glad you found the typo. Me missed. Forest for trees and all that. Easy to fix the subjective case to bring in more neutrality, and/or assign emphasis to certain sources. Schmidt, 03:25, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

• "Production" section: would be nice to have an explanation of why they can't seem to get the sucker released; "according to several websites" - doesn't establish authority or name the sources.

They have had continued problems with cast and crew. Voice actors having to switch out. Minor cast changes. Changed directors at least twice until the writer.producer said, "Hell, I'll do it myself". Will do some research on early problems and see what I can source. Schmidt, 03:25, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

• "Plot" section: "desires everything that exists to be destroyed" - do I want to destroy everything that exists, or do I have an urge to collect all those things that "exist to be destroyed"?; "The Void" and "The Core" are variously capitalized, bad style - and you need to make a style decision on whether all-caps is visually pleasing. Oh, and "Cassini Space Craft" - why is it in scare-quotes?

I can definitely correct the verbage. And the caps/mo caps. I like the no-caps. "CSC" was in quotes from an earlier effort. Forgot to remove and will do so. Thank you. Schmidt, 03:25, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

• "References" section: #1 the guy has two Ph.D.'s?

Yup. Surprised me as well. One in Physics and another in Checmistry. Double Docs are extremely rare in the film industry. Schmidt, 03:25, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Those are impressions on first reading and not to take away from the massive amount of work you've done already. But you did ask me to comment :) Franamax (talk) 01:31, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Your outside view is much appreciated. Happy Halloween! Schmidt, 03:25, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Holy shmoly! That's a big improvement to that article. Good job:). Gopher65_talk 04:55, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

No probs

I wasn't judging. There might be good reasons for gmail. Just being on the record about my opinions.

I can tell when others abuse e-mail, though. I think because of that, it's better to avoid even the appearance collusion. I think it helps to foster good faith. --soulscanner (talk) 07:18, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Bots

Franamax. Could you help walk me through writing a bot? I would like to create a variant archivebot that has an angry mode. When a page gets too long, the bot starts archiving things sooner to help shrink the page. Once the page size is more reasonable, the bot becomes happy again. I am competent in all Algol-like languages, and dangerous in any dialect of Lisp (yeah, like there is any practical use for that). Where do I start? Jehochman 02:12, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not necessarily the best one to talk to, since the way I code is completely unlike the wiki way. The best way is probably to find an existing archive bot and look at its source code. I think Misza'a is open-source. If you find something good and can't find anyone willing to coach you, let me know and I can look at the source code with you. I'm somewhere over 15 languages of all stripes (can you say COBOL?) and lately I've been dabbling in PHP. I have my own wiki I can break for testing too. I like(d) Lisp, I used it for word-processor extensions and CAD applications (AutoCAD AutoLisp) - but I always had problems getting the car of my cdr! :) Franamax (talk) 02:23, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

And I do believe that here is Misza's archivebot code. Franamax (talk) 02:39, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

And here's a page for pywikipedia on Meta. Franamax (talk) 02:48, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I just had a thought though. Coding in a state of angriness is not that tough, and keeping a persistent eye on whether the current state of angriness is getting the job done is pretty easy too. However, when two monster-drama threads occupy the board at once, those threads rapidly increase in size and at the same time draw the attention of the active admins (or at least the dramadmins). This will increase the angry-level of the bot, which will then take it out on all the other threads that admins are ignoring 'cause it's so much fun to fight with each other. End result: deserving threads get pushed off. And there's another situation, where (usually two) editors get into a massive rapid-fire discussion with nary an admin comment in sight, just two editors bringing their content dispute to the admin boards. Here too, the angry bot will take its revenge on the innocent threads. Better use of "resolved" tags and more frequent archive scans might be another way to go. Franamax (talk) 03:14, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Harry Kloor

My first article ever. A little BLP on an amazing fellow... Still needs wikifying and cleanup, but I think I have sourced the hell out of it and kept it pretty neutral. I welcome your input. Schmidt, 04:42, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

not to be confused with?

Inre this diff... since the user and article are one and the same, is this tag proper? Schmidt, 19:19, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Wow, you sure attract the one-day editors with extensive wiki-knowledge. Article-space is article-space, we don't confuse our readers with links into the swamp. Whether or not the subject of an article is also an editor (and there are many) is irrelevant - I removed the tag.

And congrats on the Kloor article - one of the first things I thought about reviewing the Cassini article was "why is this guy a red-link, he's way more interesting than the film?". Franamax (talk) 19:41, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. And I do agree... Kloor is an amazing alpha personality. My next efforts at fixing a redlink will be his co-director... also an interesting fellow, but not in Kloor's category. I believe he was brought in becasuse he has the field-knowledge to get this film finished. I'll see what can be done. Question: How does one determine an article's status? I know Cassini is no longer a stub... and that Kloor's is something more than a stub. Can you direct me to the explanations of such? Schmidt, 02:04, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Yahh - there's a gap between stub and GA/FA I'm not totally clear on. You can look at WP:ASSESS which points to WP:1.0/A which I read as saying assessments are done by WikiProjects. In your case, I think WP:FILMA is appropriate. I think you can change some of the lower-scale assessments yourself, 'cause I think I've seen someone doing it: try asking User:Casliber, who has made one or two article edits :) Tell him Franamax sent you - but don't blame me if you get blocked on sight! ;) Franamax (talk) 02:18, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Yikes! Blocked? Ouch. Well... since the article is still evolving, and I have been able to expand it with sourcing, I'll just keep plugging away at it and go for GA. Schmidt, 02:29, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I do hope you noticed the smiley I included. Cas is eminently approachable and a good resource on assessments. Franamax (talk) 02:33, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Naturally. I knew you wouldn't send me to beard the lion. ;) Schmidt, 03:29, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Betacommand/ANI/"long winded"

In the Betacommand thread on ANI, I said it was a "long winded ANI post", that was directed to the length of that and all posts on ANI about Beta. They go on forever and ever and ever and ever. It wasn't directed at you, if you thought it was, I apologize. It was just directed at the length of the conversation. Sorry if there was any confusion. Take Care...NeutralHomer • Talk • November 9, 2008 @ 01:26

Not at all. I'm quite dismayed that the thread is now seeming to stretch out endlessly, when it was such a simple matter - so we're both talking about the same thing.

And I don't take "long-winded" as an insult when directed at myself anyway. It's a plain statement of reality :) Franamax (talk) 01:31, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh trust me, the thread will go on alot longer. Some of the other threads had 4, 5, sometimes 6 sub-sections to them. They do go on forever. You get lost sometimes in them.

Just wanted to make sure we were on the same page and it seems we are :) Take Care....NeutralHomer • Talk • November 9, 2008 @ 01:35

• My experience is that any thread on Betacommand will go on ad infinitum unless quashed; although his work on fair-use images is valuable, it seems to me to be somewhat single-minded and resistant to argument; as such it is intolerable that such an approach may drive away well-meaning contributors here; I know this because I fell foul of fair-use policy in my first few months here, and it took me some time to get my head around it. Unfortunately, it was done by an admin who just deleted my images without any help or explanation, and that didn't seem to be helpful. I know Beta comes across a lot of multiple policy violations, and may be understandably frustrated, but that is no excuse for not WP:AGF. The fact that it's repeated behaviour makes it worse, and that is why threads tend to be long winded. To my mind, he either lightens up, or will get blocked indef, but that is up to him. --Rodhullandemu 02:16, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I know it's not appropriate to speculate on other editor's stae-of-mind, but I'd venture to say that Beta has just been too close to the subject for too long. Familiarity with the subject can breed contempt (to paraphrase a well-known quote), and I've fallen prey to that tendency myself in real life - when you know the whole thing by heart, it can be difficult to deal with newcomers who question your knowledge of the issues. I'm struck by Beta's latest comment on his talk page: "the thing is good usage of non-free content needs very very little defense as it speaks for its self". That is an absolutely true statement, and whilst Beta's behaviour cannot be excused, that statement reveals his purpose and is something we can build around. Franamax (talk) 07:29, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Just a Star, no Barn

		The Minor Barnstar
		For taking the time to type out that explanation of F-U vs. NFCC, I award you this barnstar. - NeutralHomer • Talk • November 9, 2008 @ 07:02

Thanks! Your wording of "type out" vs. "make clear to me" is not a good sign, but I'll grab the star anyway :) I gave it my best shot, that's what counts... Franamax (talk) 07:20, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

....and I understand it better, though the whole thing still makes my head hurt. Take Care...NeutralHomer • Talk • November 9, 2008 @ 07:32

Spelin' problEms

Yeah, I admit to too much haste/impatience but in truth my eyes are going these last few years, and there's typos I don't see and have gotten too comfortable with letting little things slip by like "hte" and "demonstratino", but key-doubling and insta-dyslexicas also are at fault. I'll try and use "preview" more before that satisfying "thunk" when I hit enter after making my piont (well actually tab, tab tab, thunk. You'd never know I used to proofread for a living huh?Skookum1 (talk) 14:17, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

You're better than spell-check

Now I certainly would have caught those typos... but I'm glad they gave you something to fill up all your free time. ;) However, the article title is incorrect and stallion should be capitalized. I had simply copied what I found and was going to fix it later. I did something to address the notability of the actors doing the project and why. Is this diff too peacocky? Schmidt, 23:14, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, a few tail-feathers are showing there. "main players" is jargon-y, "The Western" is a film-buff phrase, it all reads a little bit breathless. You've certainly got the information in there though. Pretty soon, they'll change AfD to be a redirect to User:MQS/Pleasefixthisarticle :) Also, when the source confirms multiple concurrent sentences, it's OK to present the footnote mark at just the end of all the sentences it confirms - ref as I'm reading the article right now. Franamax (talk) 23:39, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I can remove the word "main", for it is a small cast. I tried to show the genre expertise of the cast and the cross-polination of their working either together, for Ford, or in the genre, and that the film was finally done as a tribute to Ford himself. Always difficult to show these guys all patting themselves on the back and have it feel as boring as it should. As for the footnote thingee, might you do for me so I will have an worthy example? I'd be ever so grateful. :) Schmidt, 00:08, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Done. (Or broke the whole article, ya never know) I just moved the whole named ref to the last instance. FYI, to be truly XML-compliant, I do believe that you should enclose the name parameter in quotes (<ref name="poopoo">), and when invoking the named ref, include the all-important space (<ref name="poopoo" />). Wiki-magic handles that stuff without problem, so that's a truly arcane technicality, but whatever :) And what happened to your mastery of {{cite}} templates anyway? Franamax (talk) 00:21, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Still got it... check Casinni or Kloor. But when I'm in a hurry, I do it fast and nasty. I can always scoot back and cleanup. And I have seen stuff in quotes "poopoo", but their lack seems to work just as well. Schmidt, 00:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Patch cable

Hi, I noticed the article right when you first posted it. And I too was impressed with the quality. Most times if a company does an info sheet, it is filled with BLATANT self promotion. I was expecting text like "The most important element in a good cable is top quality metal alloys, without impurities. ProCo brand cables, for example, are made with the finest AA grade copper filaments...etc". Nope. Just lots of good research and info. That said, I think that it might be hard to justify an external link for an instrument cable article on the electric bass article, given that 100s of instruments use patch cords. And the electric bass article has set a high bar for external links. For months there has only been one link (whereas in other articles, there is a huge list). I moved the White Paper to the Patch cord article. And, so that readers of the elec bass article can find it, I put a WikiLink in the elec bass article to Patch cord. When they click the link, they can find the article. Thanks. :)....OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 01:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Beta question

Hi Carl, with respect to this ANI thread (which I kinda regret initiating), I was never clear on Beta's restrictions imposed by the "ad-hoc" committee of yourself, Ryan and Lara - were you guys taking on an ongoing monitor/mentoring role, or just crafting the sanctions? And/or do y'all have comments on that recent little kerfuffle? I ask only as looking for a way to counter the "he's out of control/ban him now" sentiment which unfortunately arose in the thread. Beta's not such a bad guy imo, but interlocutors were and still are helpful, it would seem. Franamax (talk) 06:34, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay. I didn't anticipate any ongoing monitoring or mentoring role. At the time my main goal was to find some compromise that would calm down all sides. My hope, then and now, is that everyone would find a way to work together.— Carl (CBM · talk) 02:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I realized after sleeping on that post that the monitor/mentor concept is kind of silly. Beta knows exactly what he's doing. What he needs is just support, friendly advice - and the odd kick in the head. "Calming down all sides" may not have been successful, as witness the cited thread - but we will always be a work in progress anyway... Franamax (talk) 03:02, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Clangors

There was a long list of songs. Songs that were already listed in Rent musical and Rent film. Since I was trying to show notability for the play being filmed live and then distributed to the world, I thought a listing of the songs would be seen as a duplication of what the other articles offered. I can easily put them back if you think it best serves. Opinion? Schmidt, 08:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Never mind... I gotta put 'em back. EVen though most of the somgs are the same, they were sung by different people... and the closing night songs included former cast members from when the show first opened, comimg back to join the final crew in their grand farewell. Nice catch. Schmidt, 08:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

How could he have possibly still be complaining about THIS... 2 days AFTER I removed it in specific response to his pointing out I made an error? He has left no discussions on the article talk page, and has never left questions or comments om my talk page. Indeed, I had no idea of the removal of that bad link earlier today until you yourself pointed it out to me. Does he think that AfD is the only place to have discourse? Schmidt, 09:28, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Friendly notice

I do believe you should archive your page, considering that it is currently 66,626 bytes.— Dædαlus /_Improve 11:43, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Bot

Those only break if they're empty, which shouldn't ever be the case. I'll make it discriminate in the future though.

As for edit summaries, they're usually hidden except on page histories, where they'll only show up once. And I have to explain what the bot is doing. Anyway, I let it run again, slower this time. Master of Puppets _{Call me MoP! :)} 14:09, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

SineBot shouldn't be using unsubstituted templates. Also, every template that can be substituted should be substituted (except the ones for demonstration pages). That's about 50000 pages right there. And yes, the server load is very high if unsubstituted templates are changed. Also, every time someone loads a page with said templates, and they don't have them in their cache, they're requesting that page to be loaded. With thousands of people viewing pages every day, I think you can grasp how large the server load is. That's what the bot is for. Master of Puppets _{Call me MoP! :)} 16:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm canvassing you. That being said, you've been canvassed. Consensus please? :D Master of Puppets _{Call me MoP! :)} 00:00, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for Help

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction regarding making diffs in my complaint against User:Mitsube and for explaining the joke (to which I fell victim!). That is helpful. I am now trying to post the diff (I've already copied the text itself where User:Mitsube clearly is attempting an 'outing of identity', saying, "here we have Tony Page ... again" - but I am having difficulty getting through to the Admin Noticeboard now to add that particular 'diff'! Suddha (talk) 06:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request#New_requests

Could you please give this page some tender loving care, or prod some other people from the project to do so? The requests are piling up again and no one seems to be answering them. - Mgm| 23:47, 17 November 2008 (UTC) (PS are you British? If you are you may be able to fill my request at the bottom ;))

• PS are the top two tools from your userpage available yet? - Mgm| 23:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't look too bad to me. I check all the requests when they arrive and fill them when I can, I suspect a few others are doing that too. If we don't have an answer (request too vague, obscure publication, etc.) we leave the request there in hopes someone else will have a shot. Some of the requests are pretty old now, I'll drop a line there about removing some of them. I try not to prod the volunteers though - but I do try to publicize the resource and encourage other people to get involved.

I'm in Vancouver, but I have access to a ton of resources - and I came up dry on Perham and Blue Peter. Emailing the show directly might be your best bet.

I'll email you what I have on the tools you ask about. Franamax (talk) 01:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Ucontribs suggestion

Hey, Franamax; how about if you put together a page using your edit tool on each of the ArbCom candidates (Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2008/Candidate statements)? And then, for comparison to the editor who would (secretly) make the best arb ever seen on Wiki, add Tim Vickers to User:Franamax/Ucontribs-0.3a? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:00, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I've been working on that already. Since I'm an equal-opportunity alphabetizer, it's at User:Franamax/Ucontribs-0.3b :) Have a look there and let me know if you have any comments. I'll try to work on the rest later tonight. Franamax (talk) 22:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Glad to hear you're on it :-) But please throw in Tim Vickers: there's an editor who shows balance between excellence in mainspace as well as dispute resolution. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:38, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Beautiful: thank you so much ! I left something for you on my talk. (When are you going for adminship?) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:22, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Our Feature Presentation....

Found an article at AfD that looked like it could be saved from deletion. I took THIS and turned it into THIS. I was still in process of expanding the article when the synopsis section got tagged as a copyvio. Per instruction of thecopyvio tag at Our Feature Presentation, and wishing to address the concern, I created the temp page excactly where it directed me to do so and corrected the synopsis, basing the rewrite upon the official website and other sources, but not copying them. However, User:Skomorokh moved it to a sandbox. Will his moving it affect an Admin's ability to remove the copyvio tag, as it is now in a different spot than first directed? How do I get the copyvio tage removed, since the issue has been addresed? Will an Admin replace the old synopsis with the new one? I hate the thought that even seeing that might color an editor's coomments at the AfD. Schmidt, 19:15, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I would say just substitute in your new text on the live article, remove the copyvio tag (assuming you're not putting in a different copyvio ;), note so on the article talk page and at talk of the editor who tagged the copyvio, and probably at the entry on the copyvio noticeboard. If that's wrong, someone will tell you and you can always revert back to the way it is now. The copyvio template is all-purpose boilerplate. BTW, where did you source the new version? Franamax (talk) 21:10, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I've followed up with Skomorokh to get some clarification. Templates shouldn't be telling editors to do something that another editor is going to tell them was the wrong thing to do. Franamax (talk) 21:28, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I did not think I could remove the tag myself, as the tag says Do not edit this page until an administrator has resolved this issue... and I do not know how.if the issue is resolved. So, until I know the issue has been resolved, I ain't gonna touch the article (mores the pity as I see dlete on the horizon)... only the temp. In other news, I received an email reply from one of the film's producers who agrees to send me some reliable source links to more recent news. I may have to recreate the article at a leter date. Schmidt, 22:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

If you have rewritten the text from different sources so that the new version is not a copyvio, then the issue is resolved, at least as far as the article goes. That's why I asked what your source is for the new version, to confirm that it's your own original writing. If you follow the steps I outlined, the article is fixed, the notice is still on the copyvio board and will be checked by an admin in due course. IAR and screw what the template says - the article comes first.

The other purpose of that copyvio template of course is to flag up an editor who has inserted copyright material into our 💕, that editor seemingly being yourself. This gets posted to the copyvio noticeboard so that an admin can warn you that copying the property of others is not acceptable and can get you blocked if you keep doing it. The "do not edit" piece is to keep the article in the state of suspected violation so that an admin can confirm it. In this case, I'm not an admin but I certainly can confirm that it appears to be a word-for-word copyvio (of either IMDb or hollywood.com, one of whom must be copyvio'ing the other, but that's not our concern). I can also give you a warning that such copying will not be tolerated. This brings all of your edits into disrepute. If you have done this in the past, you better go back and fix it, pronto. If you do it in future, expect a block. Franamax (talk) 23:17, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Fatherly scolding heard and understood. The article was underwork and was tagged before I could insert a rewritten plot. My bad for not having it myself tagged as "in use" or "under construction", as that might have indicated to an editor that the situation would soon be resolved. As for the tagged text itself, seen on IMDB and other websites, the copyright does not belong to them and they cannot make any claim of such against Wiki were it not be changed. The text copyright belongs solely to the production company. If the original text were to be kept (and it is not), I could easily get explicit permission from the film's producer for its use on Wiki. Were I to do so, how would I then show this permission? Now, and although WP:FILMPLOT states, "Plot summaries do not normally require citations; the film itself is the source, as the accuracy of the plot description can be verified by watching the film", the tagging has placed an onus on my work in that section and on that article. Even though rewritten so as to not be a copyvio, it might now be seen or claimed as OR, and that will not do. I'd just as soon the section be stricken and replaced at a later date. Further, as I am waiting for production to get back to me with additional sources, I do not expect the article to survive the AfD if they are not timely, and have requested that if it is deleted, that such be done without prejudice so the article might be recreated at a later date. Lastly, no such examples exist in my other edits, as without exception, online synopsis and plot summaries are always overly verbose and rife with POV and have to be trimmed and rewritten every time. This one was simply tagged before this was done. Schmidt, 01:00, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Per this diff, I have been granted permission to merge the reworded text back into the main article, with the copyvio being addressed. I just spent the last 45 mintes trying to sort through WP:MERGE and came up more confused than ever. Because we are speaking about such a small amount of text, wouldn't it simply be easier to do a cut and past and refer to the permission granted by the Admin to then remove the tag? Schmidt, 02:32, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Cut-paste it back in, edit summary is "merging per talk page", note at the talk page the diff where you've done the merge, point to the page it came from (permalink to your uspace page where it's coming from) and mention the authors (yourself and Skomorokh). That satisfies the Title Page provisions of GFDL, as it is all traceable. If you want to get into the details of GFDL and how WP does it, that's a whole different story :) Just make clear where the text came from, everything is fine.

Been done. Edit notes include reason and link back to diff giving permission... which itself links back to source on my temp page. Tracability of process is establiched.

NB, if you use the practice of copy-pasting in text from other sites and then rewriting it appropriately, it's probably best to save it inside of an HTML comment, like "<!-- copied from external site: blah blah -->". You can remove those comments for Preview purposes, put them back in when you save. Copyvios should never ever exist here, shoot on sight.

Agreed in all respects.

And if you can induce others to release their content to the public domain, all the better, please DO SO! The best way is to ask the producers to show an explicit release of the text on their own site, such as by displaying a GFDL or CC-by-SA notice, or a statement allowing their text (not necessarily images) to be freely re-used. Failing that, the copyowner can identify themself at OTRS and give explicit permission for reuse of their work, then the ticket number carries the day. Proper attribution would still be required, since we discourage plagiarism. The owner should also be aware that their work could then be reused and modified. Franamax (talk) 03:05, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

No doubt they will gladly put an statement on their website allowing use of their text to be used elsewhere, as it serves them in the future. Schmidt, 03:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

anonymous vandalism

Thanks for the tip, I wouldn't even have noticed otherwise. Bearcat (talk) 08:12, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Duh, I misunderstood what you were referring to. Thanks anyway, still appreciated. Bearcat (talk) 08:27, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Heh, it's always hard to figure out when it's not there anymore :) Franamax (talk) 08:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Urbex image

I've put up both images in the Talk:Urban exploration page so that everyone can discuss and come to a conclusion on which image would be better or a third/fourth image may be better. Brothejr (talk) 05:54, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Edit counting - thanks

I thought about trying to measure bytes added. I think you would need to measure it almost against the entire previous history of the article. Otherwise reverting blanking vandalism will over-estimate the content added. I'm sure you thought of that, but I think it's relatively tricky to get at content generation without including too much noise. Cool Hand Luke 18:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Most vandalism is a direct revert, with a possible intervening bot edit or interwiki link. I think this would apply to most Huggle types and watchlist-watchers. Sometimes looking at one IP edit leads back through edits by a different IP where you find section-blanking, and sometimes you find vandalism and have to search back 20 versions for the "last good" - but I almost think you should get credit for that anyway. Looking at 3-4 points in the edit chain should catch the large majority (and looking forward is necessary too, to see whether "you" got reverted (or reverted yourself)). The more complex cases will indeed tend to overstate the plus-bytes. Looking at the actual content changes would quickly become intractable, but comparing article-as-string's might get a long way. As you've noted, all bulk metrics have to be examined with care. Franamax (talk) 01:24, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Ucontribs-0.3b

Wow, so this is just the coolest tool. Do your tools work like requesting a credit report (ie it's not too much hassle to ask for one every four months, but more than that and you have to pay a $9.99 fee)? Because... I'd really be curious to see my detailed stats. Especially curious about what "family" of Wikipages I have the most edits too. I wish it were FAC, but I'm worried it's RFA! What has become of my priorities?! Anyway, if it's a hassle to run the tool, don't worry about it. No big deal. And either way, thanks much for running the tool on the Arb candidates. Fascinating stuff. --JayHenry (t) 23:01, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Umm, what was that again about $10 a shot? That sounds like a very wise and reasonable suggestion. :)

I'll run a listing for you, should show up at uc3b in 10-15 minutes. I'm happy to give a copy of the software to anyone reasonably responsible (who would need to be running Windows or OS/X with the emulator). I'd like to see it being used as a regular part of RFA, since it lends itself well to "my area of interest is...". Franamax (talk) 01:30, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Updating: The db12 server apparently read my assurance of 10-15 mins and decided that was not to be. Could be a few hours 'til things settle down, which means tomorrow. I'll refund $1 of your listing fee in view of the inconvenience. :) Franamax (talk) 06:09, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Done, listed here. Your worst fears are confirmed - but you actually seem to have a pretty healthy balance of editing areas.

Looking at your mainspace edits, I've now had a brainwave: examining the WikiProjects of articles in the most-edited list and building a Top-5 Projects summary. That would help to separate your Hippoppotami from your Hemingways. Franamax (talk) 20:49, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, actually, when it comes to projects, my biggest editing area is by far the DYK family. But because of a historical quirk the pages where all the work of DYK takes place are T:TDYK and T:DYK/N--both in the template space (my 2nd and 4th most edited pages on the whole project). Thanks for running the tool! As for the $9, well... I'll get back to you on that... --JayHenry (t) 05:13, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

We review all spaces, at least in theory. I've just added Template: on your sub-page. Let me know if it looks reasonable or if I'm missing anything. Just focussing on main and WP spaces can miss a lot of important contributions, for instance a single image upload potentially omits several hours of work to upgrade the image. Similarly, a single well-planned template change can improve several hundreds of articles. All I can do is help with counting... Franamax (talk) 05:30, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

NB We'll comp the template space listing, and start a tab in future :) Franamax (talk) 05:31, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Whew, so that makes 553 edits to DYK pages (template + wikipedia space), well ahead of the 348 to RFA pages. My priorities aren't completely blown apart. (Of course, if I ever start thinking that I'm not a slouch I'll just take a look at this humbling list, to knock myself off any pedestal.) How hard is it to write these sort of tools? I just get such a kick out of any sort of data or charts. (By the way, my nomination for craziest chart in case you've never seen it: Image:Adminshipmap_checked_20070804161930.png.) --JayHenry (t) 05:53, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Wow. That image is the very definition of "Dude, too much data!". I couldn't even understand it until I found it's context at GMaxwell's page - and there's an even more dense image above it, the nom graph. Are these images like some Dali paintings, where if you stand 30 feet away, a different pattern emerges?

You think you're humbled? I've run this stuff against editors who have edit counts to a single page that dwarf my edits to the entire namespace! And then there's Charles Matthews, for whom I am going to redesign the entire memory/search model - I was expecting the 40,000-edit people, but I wasn't ready for the 150,000-edit types.

As far as writing tools: you would likely be best to look at the pywikipedia framework (search it in Google), which is premade for bots and scripts. I wasn't smart enough to look for those things when I was new, so I started from scratch, beginning with "how do I connect to the internet?". From there, decoding UTF-8; translating HTML, UTF and filename encoding; optimizing network reads, CPU usage and file storage; handling server delays - a whole fantastic voyage. You might be better to check out the well-beaten path that everyone else followed, though I'm eager to find ways to hand over (most of) my code to willing hands. Franamax (talk) 06:31, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Roux

I would have to say that I didn't bring up policies until the cussing started to fly. Mocking, taunting, and cussing are signs that a user's conduct is unbecoming. I don't think that I am out of line to point this out when it happens, especially when said user is demanding apologies while cussing. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:25, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it looks like you were the first to use words like "hypocrisy", "rude", "unfair", "uncivil" - the last being an especial red-flag around here. If you'd stated the case that being a candidate makes you no less of a wikipedian, and takes away no enfranchisement, without the vitriol, I'd back you to the hilt.

The thing is, all you had to do was make your views known with one or maybe two posts. Another tactic is to phrase things in terms of yourself, rather than others. So where you say "It is disrespectful to claim that you have the right to oppose", say "If I opposed on that basis, I would feel that I was being disrespectful". There are ways to couch your message beyond just saying "you're wrong, no matter what you say, you're still wrong". Franamax (talk) 01:43, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

That would seem rather silly to go to another's page and do it, especially when we would both know exactly that we were talking about them. The absurdity may be good for a short chuckle, but he would immediately ignore any double standards produced and the potential ridiculous that would result from such double standards. Also, "rude", "hypocrisy", "unfair", and "uncivil", deal with words and with actions. His attacks deal with persons and with physical traits (such as asking if I did crack or was drunk). One is civil, the other is not. Discuss the actions and words, not the person. That is, after all, the basis of NPA. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:11, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

You're missing my point a bit. The point of casting the issue in terms of yourself is not to disguise any comments, it's to engage your own personal capacity for introspection. When you say "if I did that...", to be honest you have to put yourself in the place of another person who was motivated to do that and work through your own process. It's not enough to just tack "if I did that" at the front, then go on to comment on the other person. You need to undertake the full exercise of putting yourself into the other person's shoes. You might find that your comments are different that way.

And Roux's later responses simply evidence his feelings that you were harassing him. I'll not comment on harassment of itself, but you did choose to pursue a subject on another editor's talk page. The first time that editor says "fuck" anything is a pretty good sign it's time to withdraw. At that point, you're pretty obviously not going to "win the point" - so just walk away. Or even say "sorry if I've offended you", then walk away - cost to you: zero. Franamax (talk) 02:29, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

But Franamax, you forget that talking about yourself and how you would do things can possibly lead to the other thinking that you are being condescending. :) I know quite a bit about the ins and outs of communication and civility. I lead a wiki group on the matter, or at least parts of it, with people wanting it to go full force. It seems that quite a few people around tonight don't seem to know that. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 03:13, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Well if you participate in a wiki group on communication, hopefully one of the first things you discuss is how, rather than simply applying objective standards of civility, it is important to literally put yourself in the other person's shoes and try to understand the genesis of their actions. Very rarely is it "because they are just wrong", much more often you will find that it is a result of a chain of misperceptions and misunderstandings. Once you have done that, you can begin to integrate and understand their actions as they conflict with community norms.

In the case at hand, it seems plain to me that you missed some early signals that your direct approach wasn't working and needed some modification. You failed to do that and chose instead to start applying labels to the subsequent outbursts. I fail to see how your approach was productive in this instance. What did you accomplish? Franamax (talk) 03:24, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Franamax, I never said he was just wrong. :) And I know all about the psychological and social dynamics of communication. I even have a guide on how to appropriately act on my talk page here. Regardless, you may be interested in the wikiversity project. And trust me, I didn't miss any signs, and any approach or response I stated wouldn't have worked. If you want to discuss it more, find my email. Its available for anyone to use. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:32, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, I think "It seems we have a difference of opinion. Sorry to have bothered you." would have worked quite effectively. Regardless, I'll study your links and may take you up on the email thing. Hopefully the drama component at least is now settled. Franamax (talk) 03:43, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

This is Misplaced Pages, drama is never settled. You'd be surprised that a lot of things that should work really fall flat. LOL. During various dispute resolutions, I've bribed and begged people and still, nothing changes. Its probably part of the anonymity that causes us not to perform in standard psychological ways. Its an odd thing. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:07, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

ACE graphs

I noticed a comment from you on AN complaining about the graphs - hopefully this helps you, or at least shows you why I set it up the way I did. That graph is a complete mess. You've got places 6-9 at the top where you can't see who's beating who, it's impossible to tell which color belongs to which candidate, and everyone below that gap at 55% has no chance of winning. By cropping it and zooming, viewers can more easily tell what's going on in the areas where the graph is cramped and the different colors can be easily differentiated. ST47 (talk) 20:16, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I wasn't complaining at all, just making a side note about data presntation in general. Your graph is excellent for its purpose, and also excellent for Elonka's purpose, to show Jayvdb's slide. The only danger would be that someone could look at it and say "ZOMG he's gone down by more than HALF!!" if they didn't read the axes properly.

Your version works much better for showing the leaders (in fact I'd just discussed with someone the difficulty of graphing when the data lines are clustered, not long before this all came up :). I like the one you link above for a different reason - it shows a three-mode clustering of the votes, which I hadn't noticed before. Very interesting that...

Anyway, I wasn't trying to complain or question your presentation, and I'm sorry if it came over that way! Franamax (talk) 20:28, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

problems with the new Comanche Stallion Afd...

Why does this not show up as a 2nd AfD within three weeks for the same article... one that was kept as "Keep" and not simply no consensus? Editors might think it a first AfD and not follow the history. Plus, I am agrieved that a definite keep from 3 weeks earlirer can be ignored. Is this proper procedure? Doesn't such an early return to AfD, without allowing concerns at an earlier AfD kinda fall under WP:NOTAGAIN? If the artilce had mot been improved in 6 months, I might understand... but 3 weeks? Schmidt, 22:15, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

It certainly should show as a 2nd Nom. Feel free to fix it yourself, or I'll have a look after my sandwich. You can comment at the current AfD to the effect that it's a repeat nom, maybe someone else will fix it too.

I kinda figured when I removed the prod that they would go to AfD in response, people tend to do that for some reason. I agree that it's pretty dang soon to be nomming a 2nd time. Some editors don't really research topics well before they slap on tags. Franamax (talk) 22:23, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

fyi

I posted at User talk:Franamax/Ucontribs-0.3b. Cheers! --Dweller (talk) 11:26, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes I saw. I've been at "site B" for a few days and will be back at "site A" where my software is in about 8 hrs. Will do it then. Franamax (talk) 17:29, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Done! Franamax (talk) 23:55, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

ArbCom

I understand where you're coming from: I owe you an explanation.

I have been quite seriously ill for the past two weeks. I developed cough/flu symptoms about 28 November. My temperature was running at 38/38.5 9 (101) for most of the first week and my blood sugar was roughly double its normal level (I'm diabetic). By last weekend, my temperature was up to 39.5 (103) and I had developed a secondary lung infection. My doctor put me on antibiotics (which I'm still on) but they are only now starting to kick in. I'm unlikely to be back at work for another week.

In the meantime, I carried on with questions (with varying degrees of coherence) and, stupidly, commented forcefully on opposes. This is absolutely out of character and you won't find anything comparable among my 20,000-ish prior edits. This was not, as Durova suggests, a standard reaction to stress but an exceptional symptom of illness. In addition to losing around five kilos in two weeks, I also lost my normal resilience and good humour.

To be honest, the flurry of pile-on votes following Durova's oppose hurt me considerably at a moment when I was feeling sorry for myself and I over-reacted. There is nothing in my edit history to suggest that I'm ineffectual or a yes man and my many achievements at Milhist confirm my integrity. I have not, incidentally, had a single oppose from anyone who knows me well and who has seen me in action. My integrity defines me as a person and many supports emphasise this.

--ROGER DAVIES  08:13, 13 December 2008 (UTC)