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Archives

Archive 1 Feb 2005 - Jan 2007

Description of organization - questions to apologists

Can I infer from recent reversions, etc., that there are editors who believe that this organization:

• Truly is neutral to the conflict?
• Actually presents full, complete, and accurate information?

I'm tired of attempts at positioning this as an organization that is everything it presents itself to be, when in reality it's a virulently anti-Israeli organization that puts up a pretense of objectivity. --Leifern 18:58, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

No you can't, and please stop doing so. Thanks --Tom 19:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I will stop making that assumption as soon as I've seen you eliminate the phrasing about CAMERA to eliminate the view or implication that it's pro-Israel. Until then, we're looking at a huge double standard here. The organization is plainly anti-Israeli. --Leifern 20:00, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Leif, I went over to CAMERA and didn't see anything in the lead section that said it was pro-Israel. If something is not sourced, feel free to remove it per wiki policy or add the cite tag. Again, this site might be the scum of the earth, I haven't read their material, but sources are needed if you want to describe the site as being X,Y or Z. Anyways --Tom 20:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The intro reads "focusing primarily on correcting coverage that it considers inaccurate or unfairly skewed against Israel," without any source for that characterization. If you're going to accept that kind of summary one place, surely this organization deserves one that is equally clear. --Leifern 11:02, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

If it isn't sourced, remove it. Please keep the lead as simple as possible so consensus can be reached.--Tom 15:08, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I edited the camera article and would also point you to the Middle East Media Research Institute article. Should that lead be changed to.? Thanks--Tom 15:41, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I've been busy the last few days, and took a look at this again. After a three day revert war over the lead paragraph, we're again back to where we started. Can we agree on "The site is generally critical of US policy with regards to Israel"? That's consistent with the cited reference, and not overly strong in any direction. --John Nagle 08:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Six edits later, we're back to exactly the same text. Give it a rest, already. If you don't like the organization, add sourced material to the criticism section.

But please quit fighting over the lead paragraph. It's not getting better. Thanks. --John Nagle 17:39, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

"Original research?"

Catchpole, in a rather imaginative twist, seems to think that direct quotes and paraphrasing from the organization's website constitutes "original research," presumably because it is just too painful to read what this organization actually stands for. We can go around and around on this, but I'd like to see some sincere effort from our opponents on this issue to create an introductory paragraph that makes it clear that this organization is not neutral but has a political agenda. --Leifern 18:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Should we do the same for the other sites which support your agenda? Oh course not. All agendas and original research should be stopped, especially in the lead section it seems.--Tom 19:08, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

My agenda, whatever it might be, is absolutely irrelevant. Deleting quotes and accurate paraphrasing from the organization's own website can not be construed as original research. --Leifern 19:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Editing Misplaced Pages with an agenda is absolutely relevant because it seems that Misplaced Pages's "prime directive" if you will, is to edit from a NPOV as difficult as that might be. The original research comes when you post what the site says and then you exstrapulate(sp) some type of conclusion about what the site stands for ect. That is your analysis, which might be perfectly correct but is still original research. Just provide sources that says the site is X, Y, or Z and then feel free to add it. I am just concerned about the lead since this really should be locked down with consensus. Anyways --Tom 16:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Quotes removed

I put up quotes said by members of the organization that were verified, and I sourced them, but they were removed. Why? Because they weren't flattering to the organization? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.116.6.12 (talk • contribs) 16:54, 18 July 2007

WP is not a quote farm. --Tom 17:19, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I see it for other articles. Why not this one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.116.6.12 (talk • contribs) 19:51, 18 July 2007

Two wrongs don't make a right. --Tom 13:17, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

IFK's motives are straightforwardly patriotic, seeking to put the interests of Americans first. Meanwhile, organisations such as CAMERA, seeking to put the interests of other nations ahead of those of America, suffer no unflattering quotes whatsoever. Unbiased observers might think the latter organisation is border-line treasonous - what do you say? PalestineRemembered 17:26, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Sudden rash of POV edits today

Sudden rash of POV edits today. No new info, some references removed. Reverted. The article had been stable for a while, and we seem to have reached a consensus of sorts. --John Nagle 06:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I have restored my edits. I agree with you about the removal of the first paragraph of the Background, and have restored that as well. I do not see any removed references in the edits you are talking about. As for "stability", it does not trump NPOV, and consensus on Misplaced Pages only lasts until the next editor comes along. 6SJ7 20:40, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Lead sentence

As it is now:

If Americans Knew is a non-profit organization that focuses on the Arab-Israeli conflict and United States foreign policy regarding the Middle East, offering analysis of American media coverage of these issues.

Can we reach any consensus here? TIA --Tom 13:18, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Today we have "The site is generally critical of U.S. financial and military support of Israel", which is a statement that both If Americans Knew and its critics should be able to agree upon. Every time someone changes that, after a few edits we end up back there, more or less. Really, the organization's position is simple - they want the US to stop supporting Israel. Just as AIPAC, "America's pro-Israel lobby", wants the US to support Israel. They're a lobby, with a position. -John Nagle 16:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Some recently added bad cites

Some poorly written citations have been added recently. We have New York Times links that lead to a login page. Can more open sources be found? Also, the cite supposedly from the Mercury News isn't from there; it's from "gradethenews.org". What they said is:

"If it has been documented that Israeli deaths were considered more newsworthy than Palestinian," commented Stanford Communication Prof. Shanto Iyengar, "that's prima facie evidence of bias."

Not so, protested Daniel Sneider, who was foreign and national desk editor at the Mercury News during the study period. He refused to say why on the record. But Mr. Sneider called a similar study to ours, conducted by an organization called If Americans Knew, "fundamentally flawed." Grade the News replicated and expanded the study conducted by the Berkeley-based media monitor. Because we included Palestinian deaths implied by the term "suicide" in our totals, Grade the News showed slightly less imbalance than If Americans Knew. Otherwise, our counts matched theirs.

Two other top editors we contacted at the Mercury News declined comment, deferring to Mr. Sneider, who now writes a foreign affairs column for the newspaper.

What went into the Misplaced Pages article is: "The San Jose Mercury News called an If Americans Knew report "fundamentally flawed." --John Nagle (talk) 07:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

(redacted)

An inflammatory and potentially libelous comment was removed. Misplaced Pages is not a discussion forum, and controversial or negative material about living people must not be presented without reliable sources to back them. Also removed fallout from the original comment. <eleland/talkedits> 17:38, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Came here from 3O

It's a little difficult to see exactly what the dispute is, but I don't see where "Numerous citations and additional information were added and then reverted." I did notice that a detailed list of the group's video productions were replaced with a general statement that the group has produced some videos - that seems appropriate per WP:SUMMARY style. Interested readers can follow some links and find the videos for themselves, we needn't detail every single one. Editorial comments about certain sources being "Jewish" were quite rightly removed, as were references to anonymous internet postings.

In general, all editors are encouraged to use the talk page for anything beyond the very simplest issues, since the concision required in edit summaries can lead to misunderstanding, especially when material is being removed. <eleland/talkedits> 17:48, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Big mess from anon

There have been some major edits by an anonymous editor recently, and they're not very good. I reverted the whole block of edits. Some of the info was just wrong.

For one thing, we don't have a cited list of board members for If Americans Knew, and some of the names we do have are bogus. For example Eugene K. Bird is dead. He was listed as "Eugene K. Bird who is known for developing a close relationship with Rudolf Hess, Adolf Hitler's deputy in the Nazi Party". The If Americans Knew site mentions an Eugene Bird, an American foreign service officer. Not the same person. --John Nagle (talk) 00:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with some of the edits, esp. where Pipes' personal bog is used as source to accuse other persons of negative acts.Bless sins (talk) 18:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

These verifiable facts are now cited and Pipes' personal bog has been removed. Please add more facts if you wish but do not remove these (see Misplaced Pages rules). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.252.119.157 (talk) 01:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

If the anonymous User:128.252.174.116 (and other similar addresses) continues to place argumentative material in the article I will initiate procedures to have him/her banned.StN (talk) 14:54, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Having an author banned or threatening to do so without delving into why you believe the information presented is inappropriate is contrary to Misplaced Pages's rules.

Please explain how the information that you have been removing is not objective, relevant, and cited, and why you have labeled it "argumentative". It is certainly no more argumentative in nature than any other information posted; it only it presents more data. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.252.174.116 (talk) 16:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The POV pushing by this anon is excessive. The hit section on the board members is a bit much. Almost all of them were notable US officials with long careers, yet they're identified almost entirely by something negative that "Honest Reporting" has to say about them. I haven't deleted that section, although it's tempting. The anon has now twice deleted citations from the BBC which contradict a claim the anon inserted. --John Nagle (talk) 16:43, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Please list any deleted citations from the BBC and return them. Nothing has been deleted from the BBC as far as I can see. Please add information regarding the 'notable US officials with long careers' if you wish but the quotes listed are reflective of their views. The information about the board members and staff is not cherry picked, nor can you assume it 'negative' to the individuals quoted since it a common component of their dialogue. Multiple citations are attesting to this including the group’s website. The citation that uses Honest Reporting is directly linked to a video of Eugene Bird talking and even specifies the time that one can forward to see and hear him quoted. Honest Reporting is and need not be included in the other cited information that you continue to delete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.252.11.235 (talk) 19:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

You Cannot Censor Misplaced Pages

While editing this page people have been trying to shut out free dissemination of facts. Instead of adding new facts, they are removing verifiable, relevant, and cited data. Verifiable data regarding the leader and members of this organization, what they have said, and where they stand. Removing whole sections in their entirety only demonstrates refusal to confront or acknowledge the truth. Claiming that this page is an attempt to “balance” the scales or that the truth is unfair may occasionally be effective when attacking media stories you do not enjoy but it will not work here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.252.174.116 (talk) 13:20, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

1. I think you meant "Censor".

2. Note that comments about living persons are subject to WP:BLP, which you should read.

3. If you're involved in editing contentious articles, it's best to register for a Misplaced Pages account, so that you have an established identity on Misplaced Pages and a talk page where you can be reached.

4. Please use edit summaries, to explain why you're changing something.

5. Please sign your talk page comments (click on the scribbled signature icon at the top of the edit box).

Thanks. --John Nagle (talk) 20:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the 'censor' (sp) fix and extra info 128.252.11.235 (talk) 19:50, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Board member verification

We have sources for three of the board members, but not the others. The names listed are prominent people; if they're on the board, there should be sources for that. I put a "needs citations" tag on the article a few weeks ago, but no new info has appeared. --John Nagle (talk) 04:29, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

This is absolutely ridiculous

I find it insulting that the Criticism section is filled with this rubbish; most of these 'critics' are vehemently pro-Israel. They themselves breach the tenets they are complaining IAK is not upholding, those being fairness and even-handedness. In fact, they're anti-Palestinian, something never discusses; apparently you can only be pro-Palestinian or anti-semitic...sigh...

In addition, IAK is an awareness group; they ARE supposed to be bias and their material is not propaganda, bu

I propose to either expand the praise section drastically to match the Criticisms (I'll do the research) or cut back on the Pro-Israeli criticisms.

Ahm2307 (talk) 13:54, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not ridiculous at all, IAK is a hack group of a lady with too much free time on her hands to distort information to claim that Jews/Israelis are not to be trusted and only lies of a genocide are credible for news. It's her bias that is a problem, her mission is to end US funding to Israel by any means possible. She has an agenda that aligns with anti-Semitism, however she never personally attacked you. I took this picture.... http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=37851533&l=34967&id=9008984 she is on the far right (ironically). After she spoke I was tempted to smash her computer. --Saxophonemn (talk) 15:33, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Rewriting section as bullet points

A recent edit converted two paragraphs of text to bullet points, while introducing some typos. I reverted it on stylistic grounds. It seems to read better as text; bullet points are more appropriate where each entry is an exact quote. --John Nagle (talk) 06:02, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Chutzpah

IronDuke removed all positive reactions from the article, added more criticisms from biased groups, and then added a slap against the group to the lead "reflecting the article."StN (talk) 19:20, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I think my edits vastly improved the article. If you have concrete suggestions for more/less, I am all ears. IronDuke 19:32, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Ah. I see you've already reverted. Can you take a look at WP:LEAD? It says, "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article." If we omit that the group has been heavily criticised, it is no longer a proper lead. IronDuke 19:34, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree. Look at the article for AIPAC. No one can deny that that organization has been heavily criticized, but the criticisms do not appear in the lead.StN (talk) 02:12, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

What is it you're not agreeing with? The guideline? Or my interpretation of it? (NB: Many articles are flawed, that does not mean we therefore overlook flaws where we find them.) IronDuke 02:16, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with your interpretation. Many organizations and individuals have been criticized, but the cricicisms do not typically appear in the leads of their Misplaced Pages articles. Otherwise why not include the countercriticisms as well in the leads? Look at the article for Hitler. It states a number of facts about him, including the number of deaths he bears responsibility for, but does not summarize the criticisms of him.StN (talk) 02:49, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, I hope you won't think I'm picking nits, but I think you're disagreeing with the guideline. There's been a lot of criticism -- serious criticism - of this group. The lead should summarize that, as per the guideline. I try to make it a personal policy not to drag other articles into discussions (I don't always succeed), as different articles are, well, different. They are longer/shorter/more controversial/less controversial/more well known/less well known, etc. IronDuke 05:50, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The main problem with the lede is the "have been criticized" line, which is uncited and doesn't indicate who's criticizing whom. What should be done about that? --John Nagle (talk) 03:00, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Took a shot. IronDuke 05:50, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

It is entirely nonobjective to pull some allegations and criticisms out of the article for the lead paragraph, citing the article itself, while not similarly showcasing a well-documented rebuttal. The organization is critical of Israel. Although some may find this irksome, it is not appropriate by Misplaced Pages standards to impeach such criticism in the lead. There is space to do this in the article. If the lead refers to criticisms so as to reflect the article's content, it should in the same spirit refer to independent support of the group's findings.StN (talk) 05:14, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

So you do disagree with WP:LEAD? Or is it more, "If the thing I want in the lead isn't there, the thing you want in the lead can't be either?" IronDuke 16:02, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I have removed that for now. --Tom 15:11, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Tom, it would be impossible to argue with your reasoning. IronDuke 16:03, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Hey Ironduke, thanks eventhough I think you are kidding. How much critizism has this group received, by who, and how noteworthy is it? Not sure if it belongs in the lede, but maybe if it is rewritten with who said what and sources. Looking at like groups, it doesn't look like much crtizism is in the ledes. Anyways, --Tom 16:15, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, what I wrote was literally true - and you are quite welcome. I think if you go back and take a very careful look at what you deleted, you will answer your own question. IronDuke 16:53, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Too another shot at the lead, happy to discuss. IronDuke 16:58, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I still would leave that out of the lede since it seems pretty vague, leading, not sure what else. Again, looking at similar articles, not sure if the critizism has reached the level for inclusion in the lede. I am definately a minimalist so just my take. --Tom 17:04, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Understood. I think it's quite specific actually, as it links to the section it summarizes. This is the guideline we're generally supposed to follow. IronDuke 17:48, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I would still leave that section out as it is currently written, but will not delete for now. --Tom 17:52, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I entirely agree. Apart from the unconventional indication of criticisms in the lead paragraph (which should simply summarize what the organization is), the self-citation in the lead is really questionable. I will remove the last paragraph.StN (talk) 19:20, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Can you respond to my points, though? Or defend, in policy or guideline, the points that you make? Thanks. IronDuke 21:39, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

From WP:LEAD: "While consideration should be given to creating interest in reading more of the article, the lead nonetheless should not "tease" the reader by hinting at—but not explaining—important facts that will appear later in the article." Also from WP:LEAD: "Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations..." I suggest that citing the article itself for one position in a controversy only fulfills this standard if the article itself is also cited for the opposing side. I favor leaving the controversy out of the lead in this case, since the way you have phrased it, it seems like there is a consensus for the critical view. If the controversy is indicated in the lead, then cite specific sources critical of IAK, and some specific sources that are supportive.StN (talk) 22:05, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Abu Ghraib

I've removed the sentence that said that "This information was later confirmed by the prison commander, Brig. Gen Janis Karpinski", in reference to the claim that " Eugene Bird has stated that Israeli interrogators may have been present at Abu Ghraib". The source provided for that reference does not have Ms. Karpinski "confirming" Bird's claim. Rather, it has her claiming she saw a single man, who said he was from Israel, in a different facility in Iraq. We can certianly agree that allegations similar to the ones made by Bird were made by other sources, but we can't say his claims were "confirmed" on the basis of the cited info. NoCal100 (talk) 04:29, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Eleland (talk · contribs) has removed the Bird section entirely, so for now, this issue is moot. If it comes back, note that Jane's has a report on Israeli interrogators in Iraq; they consider this something the US and Israel did successfully.. --John Nagle (talk) 05:18, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, I agree that others may have made the same claims as Bird, but that is not the same as saying that his claims were confirmed. NoCal100 (talk) 15:00, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

? --John Nagle (talk) 18:42, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, WP:OR#SYN should be excluded. The real question is what is the relevance of Bird's saying this? Why are we picking this one thing he said and presenting it in an article about the group? Presumably, I.A.K.'s board members have all said an enormous number of different things about the Middle East and I do not see any basis for just arbitrarily picking out some of them to be featured. We should either write little essays about every board member's views on the Mideast (I hardly think this is a good idea!) or we should rely only on sources actually about the group I.A.K. not the individual board members. <eleland/talkedits> 03:45, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I just deleted that section because we didn't have a cite for Bird as a board member. I put a "verify" on the board member list back in August, and below, in talk, I've been asking for citations for some time now. Nobody found any. I'm not sure where that list of board members came from. Most of those names were on the board members of Council for the National Interest, which is a different organization. --John Nagle (talk) 04:04, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced board members

We don't have a source for most of the claimed board members. The ones below the "need additional cites" box aren't mentioned on the If Americans Knew site, even in the older Internet Archive versions. A Google News search doesn't connect those names to If Americans Knew. We may need to pull those names and material about them. --John Nagle (talk) 18:42, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

The unsourced board member names seem to be people associated with the Council for the National Interest, which is a different organization, not If Americans Knew. So I'm going to pull them and comments about them unless someone comes up with a source tying them to If Americans Knew. --John Nagle (talk) 06:22, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I also removed the "critics of Israel" part of that. --Tom 17:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, last call for James Akins, Eugene H. Bird, Francis Boyle, Pete McCloskey, Donald Neff and Edward Peck as board members. Can anyone find a source? If not, they disappear soon. --John Nagle (talk) 03:40, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

They're gone. --John Nagle (talk) 04:01, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Serious problems of bias here

I recently made a major clean-up edit to this article that was just reverted; now I see there is an ongoing dispute with multiple editors on this article.

I would identify 3 main problems here:

• Use of criticism and opinion from solidly pro-Israel sources of an activst bent as if it represents the mainstream opinion on this group. Yes, CAMERA and has condemned I.A.K., but what is your point, their pro-Palestinian counterparts have praised it. I am happy to have criticism from pro-Israel partisans if they are even somewhat reliable as sources (that would include most critics here except the fringe Islamophobe Lee Kaplan, see the article on DAFKA and the only reliable source on him.) But we can't present their views as if they are the broad consensus in any way.

• Misuse of sources. This would include using unreliable sources like Iranian Press TV. Really now, do any of the editors here think that Press TV is a reliable source on the Middle East? I'm at a loss to explain how editors known for a pro-Israel stance suddenly find that Iran's propaganda TV station (denies the holocaust, etc) is suddenly a useful source, if it says something that makes pro-Palestinian groups look bad and racist. We are also including a transcript of a speech, provided by the Institute for Historical Review, which has been called inaccurate by both the speech's deliverer and a journalist for Salon.com. Reference to this dispute over the transcript's accuracy was removed without comment. So, basically, we learn here that pro-Israel editors are willing to defend the reliability of Holocaust deniers, if this can be useful to their pro-Israel agenda. Norman Finkelstein, eat your heart out.

• Use of sources unrelated to the group, linked to the group itself by original research and synthesis. Inclusions such as an op-ed by Francis Boyle, which accuses Israel of violating the Nuremburg principles of postwar international law, are only valid if reliable, mainstream secondary sources link them directly to If Americans Knew. You can't just quote the op-ed, and then cross-reference it with the group's board of directors. It is also interesting to note that nothing uncontroversial said by these board members has been referenced; the underlying method here appears to be reading up on every board member and then copying anything negative about them into this page. For example, we say nothing about Donald Neff, a journalist with 40 years of experience who headed Time Magazine's Jerusalem bureau and wrote five books about the region. I'm not saying that we should - his overall biography is irrelevant - but we can't just dump in all the negative information we can find!

• Use of leading language, and deliberate selection of quotes and examples on the basis of which examples could make the group look extreme and Jew-hating. For example, we write 'Its website carries information and allegations about "Israel and Palestine" from a wide variety of sources.' What place have the word "allegations" and the scare quotes around "Israel and Palestine" here? Previously, there were attempts to link I.A.K. to 9/11 conspiracy theories about Jews, based on a lame, intentional mis-reading of a statement about how US support for Israel was one of the things that makes Muslim terrorists angry. Etc, etc.

We need to start editing this article to conform with basic WP standards like WP:NPOV, WP:RS, WP:OR, and even WP:BLP - since the section on McCloskey and the IHR goes far enough to be a BLP violation, in that it gives negative and contentious information about the man without any reliable source, just the IHR itself which is at the very least a questionable source (to put it very mildly.) <eleland/talkedits> 01:55, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I have implemented some changes to address these points; the last time I tried this, I made one edit and it was reverted wholesale. If you have problems with any of the edits I've made of course feel free to change the language, but please do not restore BLP violations related to McCloskey, as I will be removing that again, without discussion per WP:BLP. <eleland/talkedits> 02:06, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Eleland, I think you may be right about the board members. It looks pretty squishy to cherry-pick quotes to advance the idea that they hold a particular position, even if that is correct (and I don't know if it is). However, the way you retooled the criticism section just didn't work, and on so many levels. An empty section for "praise," above the one for criticism that actually has content? And the crit was split up, and the headers were confusing. The way it was was much better, I think. IronDuke 16:57, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm glad we (seem to?) agree that material about individual board members doesn't belong. That fixes most of the problems here. I'm going to restore the empty "praise" section and start populating it over the next few hours. I'll try and keep the sources on either side equal in terms of reliability and weight, ie, I'm not going to source anything to a dubious Palestinian source while excluding dubious Israeli sources. Okay? <eleland/talkedits> 17:12, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I'll keep off the article until you, as you say, populate it... IronDuke 17:55, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

You know, come to think of it, there really isn't much about this group from pro-Palestinian advocates; just scattered brief references, letters to the editor, blog entries etc. I'm deleting the "from pro-Palestinian groups" section and deleting DAFKA/Kaplan/FrontPage from the other section, as Lee Kaplan is an unreliable extremist source with no place here (please read DAFKA and this SF weekly piece about Kaplan, the organization's driving force.) <eleland/talkedits> 19:23, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Such evenhandedness would be welcome at Rachel Corrie as well. There, the website http://israelbehindthenews.com/ was cited as a source for a claim challenging the reliability of photos produced by the ISM. Rather oddly, the content of the photos themselves were not discussed. Note that sourcing statements to the ISM or other advocacy groups is not permitted at that page, for reasons I don't quite understand. I would think that Israel Behind the News would be disqualified under that reasoning, but it seems to have been overlooked. Tiamut 17:25, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm surprised that there's so much trouble with this article. If Americans Knew doesn't claim to be neutral (unlike CAMERA). They're a lobby, with a straightforward agenda: the US shouldn't support Israel because it's not in the interests of the US.. They're AIPAC's opposition. --John Nagle (talk) 17:35, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you could reasonably compare a shoestringey activist group made up of a few dozen retirees and a freelance journalist to one of America's "top-10" congressional lobby groupw. <eleland/talkedits> 17:55, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

No, although DAFKA seems to operate on roughly the same scale, and CAMERA, although better-funded, is down to one branch in Boston. --John Nagle (talk) 03:51, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

The logic in this claim escapes me:

According to CAMERA, the organization distorts casualty statistics by failing to read entire articles, and by counting multiple mentions of the same death as multiple deaths, in addition to other issues of flawed methodology.

This is not what the CAMERA article states. Let's take a look at the original text:

Weir further manipulates the data by treating an attack mentioned more than once as more than one death. So when the Times mentioned the killing of a 3-year-old Israeli in front of his kindergarten in a story about that day's violence, and then repeats this fact twice more in the following days' stories about Israel's reaction to the slaying, Weir counts this as the Times reporting on three Israeli deaths. When a story later in the month about a Palestinian family deliberating over whether to allow rockets to be launched from their fields mentioned the boy, Weir then claims that the Times reported on "400 percent" of Israeli children's deaths in this period of time.

In other words, Weir counts the number of US media reports of Israeli deaths, concludes that this particular death is reported 4 times, then correctly states that the report rate is 400%. CAMERA somehow gets the methodology backwards, then a WP editor confuses matters even further and makes it appear as if IAK tries to inflate the number of Palestinian casualties. This needs to be corrected.

The WP article continues:

The Anti-Defamation League has called If Americans Knew an "anti-Israel organization", and asserts that "Weir's criticism of Israel has, at times, crossed the line into anti-Semitism," citing as one example Weir's cherry picking out of context quotes to "define and defame Judaism, which she described as “such a ruthless and supremacist faith.”"

This is what the ADL article says:

In an April 4, 2008, opinion piece Weir hand-picked quotations from Jewish religious texts and used them erroneously to define and defame Judaism, which she described as “such a ruthless and supremacist faith.”

And here are the relevant parts from Weir article the ADL describes:

There are two extremely valuable books on the topic by authors less timid than I, both Jewish, one Israeli: "Jewish History, Jewish Religion" by Dr. Israel Shahak, a holocaust survivor and, until his death in 2001, a highly regarded Israeli professor of chemistry; and "Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel," co-authored by Dr. Shahak and Dr. Norton Mezvinsky .

In his first book, Shahak explains that he took on this topic when he realized that "...neither Zionism, including its seemingly secular part, nor Israeli politics..., nor particularly the policies of the Jewish supporters of Israel in the diaspora, could be understood unless the deeper influence of , and the worldview which they both create and express is taken into account... Without a discussion of the prevalent Jewish attitudes to non-Jews," Shahak emphasizes," even the concept of Israel as 'a Jewish state', as Israel formally defines itself, cannot be understood."

Shahak and Mezvinsky provide a number of translations from the Talmud and other writings that they note are omitted from books on Judaism published in English; for example, from a fundamental book of Hassidism: "All non-Jews are totally satanic creatures 'in whom there is absolutely nothing good.' Even a non-Jewish embryo is qualitatively different from a Jewish one. The very existence of a non-Jew is 'non-essential', whereas all creation was created solely for the sake of the Jews." There are many such passages.

What makes such texts particularly significant, Shahak explains, is that "n Israel these ideas are widely disseminated among the public at large, in the schools and in the army." In a booklet published by the Israeli Army for its soldiers, Shahak reports, the Chief Chaplain wrote:

"When our forces come across civilians during a war or in hot pursuit or in a raid, so long as there is no certainty that those civilians are incapable of harming our forces, then according to the Halakhah they may and even should be killed ... In war, when our forces storm the enemy, they are allowed and even enjoined by the Halakhah to kill even good civilians, that is, civilians who are ostensibly good."

One can only imagine what this kind of teaching means for Palestinians in Israel itself, and, still worse, for those in the West Bank who live next to settlements populated by heavily armed adherents of such a ruthless and supremacist faith – and who regularly attack them with impunity, periodically beating, torturing, and killing them.

While the above citations do not in anyway represent the whole of Judaism, the reality is that certain religious texts taught in Israel contain a distressing number of profoundly offensive teachings. I have no doubt that the vast majority of Jewish Americans have long since repudiated these, including Rabbi Hurvitz. Still, just as Christian and Muslim leaders have publicly condemned and disowned spurious dogmas and practices, I suspect it would be valuable for Rabbi Hurvitz and other Jewish leaders to do the same. Such shared honesty and humility by all our religious leaders, I believe, helps us move forward as a stronger, more moral, and more unified society.

Weir explicitly states that the cited and commented bloodthirsty quotes "do not in anyway represent the whole of Judaism", yet the ADL sees fit to claim that she "defames Judaism", then proceeds to defame her as an "anti-Semite". It would seem that the ADL are the real cherry-pickers here, and more slanderous than what one would expect from a WP-grade reliable source. MeteorMaker (talk) 23:32, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Some of your comment was off-topic and unhelpful. IronDuke 00:02, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Are you serious? If User:MeteorMaker's rendition of the contortions required to characterize Weir's comments as antisemitic are correct, as it appears to be, the past and future contibutions of the (ir)responsible editors should be subjected to enhanced scrutiny.StN (talk) 03:45, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I was not serious. My post above actually forms a larger part of my stand-up routine. I was fearful that some people might not get it, but you put my mind at ease. Oh, and for something really funny? ]. IronDuke 00:53, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Wier is correctly quoting Israel Shahak. It's not a problem with Wier. --John Nagle (talk) 05:33, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure where this is going. The traditional writings of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all have bloodthirsty sections; taking any of them literally leads to trouble. That's not news. What are we arguing over here, anyway? --John Nagle (talk) 18:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

It seems relevant to determine whether characterizations of the article's subject (e.g., as antisemitic) are based on good scholarship or not. A back-and-forth about various opinions may be appropriate for the Criticism section, but allegations based on fudging quotes should not be featured in the lead paragraph.StN (talk) 21:40, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

And the best way to make this point is to find reliable sources that make it. Your opinion is not a reliable source. IronDuke 00:56, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

IronDuke, I actually agree with your line of argument here - as convincing as I personally find the refutation, above, of ADL's writing, it's not relevant. What I find so frustrating is that while you obviously understand WP policy well and are happy to implement this when it serves your purpose, you also appear to be willing to ignore or contradict it when that serves your purpose. I have in mind this edit, where you claim that removing information from DAFKA necessitates removing information from Grade the News.

DAFKA is a extreme-right, Islamophobic political organization. It has never been cited by any reputable news organization. The only book citation I can find is by a fundamentalist the-moooslims-are-coming nutcase named Brigitte Gabriel. Search for it in Google News and you find three articles - two of them are about DAFKA members (one is the author cited) being arrested for assaulting pro-Palestinian demonstrators, and one is about the mainstream SF Bay Jewish organizations voting to kick DAFKA out of their club. There's also a profile in SF weekly of the cited author, called "Disturbing the Peace," which basically exposes him as a stark raving extremist and possible Kahanist.

Grade The News is a project of the oldest public university in California, SJSU. It's been profiled in the SF Chronicle and cited by sources like Newsday, Editor & Publisher, San Jose Mercury News, Oakland Tribune, and the Kansas City Star. The director has worked as a reporter and as a professor of journalism, and the staff & interns are mainly graduate students in journalism programs. The advisory board is led by Ben Bagdikian, former dean of the journalism school at UC Berkeley, and includes a bunch of folks with pretty impressive CVs, like the CEO of the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation and the former CBS bureau chief in Saigon.

In summary, the comparison you've drawn here is so odious, insulting, and idiotic that I can't possibly accept that it was made in good faith, and I wish you would stop wasting everybody's time with this kind of rank bullshit. <eleland/talkedits> 01:41, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Did you want to take a week off on your own, or were you hoping instead for another block for violating WP civility policies? IronDuke 02:10, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

What I wanted is for you to stop wasting everybody's time with this kind of rank bullshit. <eleland/talkedits> 02:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Lead

Can User:IronDuke find one other case where the cited source for a statement in the lead is the article itself? As other discussion here has shown, the allegations of antisemitism in the Criticisms section are based on a false reading of other texts by the cited source of the allegations. You are creating a house of mirrors by quoting a dishonest source (which may be ok in the Criticisms section, since it is rebutted), and then alluding to the dishonest source in the lead as if it represents one side of a balanced argument. If you persist in restoring the phony lead I will make a request for mediation.StN (talk) 04:28, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

<"Stalking" disclaimer - IronDuke I am neither here because you are, nor am I not going to comment simply because you are here>. Anyway I've broadly followed the ins and outs of this for a day or two, but simply wanted to make the more general point about the lead, and back up the apparent consensus that having a "the group has been criticised .." is inappropriate. I'm mildly allergic to "Criticisms" sub-sections as it is, since they usually act as little more than a dumping ground for quotes from every adverse op-ed, press release or academic/political rival that editors who don't like the group or individual in question can dredge up from a quick Google search. But when we try to drag this kind of thing into the lead as well, we're really losing the plot. If nothing else it's the banality of having it there - what is it actually telling us? That an activist/advocacy group working in the political arena (especially in the topic area in question here) has been criticised? No sh#t. Unless that criticism was based around a major event in itself, and was recorded by a significant, objective body (eg if the group had been shut down for terrorist fundraising or whatever), it really is WP:UNDUE in the lead - and quite possibly in the main part of the article itself as well. Otherwise all our WP leads would be constructed along these lines - "The British Labour Party has been criticised for stifling innovation and entrepreneurship in the economy, but has been praised for its commitment to greater social and economic equality". As I say, even if it is broadly true, it's just stunningly uninformative. --Nickhh (talk) 09:02, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

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