Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:14, 18 October 2005

For older discussion, see

/Archive 1

Can someone unredlink this please? Andjam 01:49, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

All you need to do is to copy from the last revision from before the wholesale archiving, paste it into the red-linked renamed archive. and viola. I hope you found my explanation instructive; I'm certain that, in the future, you'd be able to undertake such a task yourself. 04:57, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Did you mean to move "legal dispute" and "Time to rename: follow up to JK" out of the archives and into the current talk page? Andjam 07:34, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

No, not move from out of the archive and into the current talk page, but again, copy and pasted from the revision history. Click on the history button, then the last revision by User:Andjam, dated 08:02, 16 October 2005 contained the desired content. I hope my explanation (this time) aids in you becoming a more productive editor. 10:31, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Legal dispute

Jay's argument (and, to a lesser extent, SlimVirgin's) seems to be that because there is a legal dispute over whether the term "occupied" is correct in referring to the West Bank and Gaza (as far as I can tell, there has never been such a dispute over the Golan Heights or the Sinai), that we shouldn't use the term "occupied" in the title. But how much of a legal dispute is it? Every international body - including the UN Security Council and the International Court of Justice - has ruled that it is an occupation. So has the highest legal authority in Israel. Furthermore, the Israeli high court's ruling in both the Beit Sourik and Alfei Menashe cases essentially takes the West Bank's status as occupied as a given - it is simply assumed to be occupied, and it is stated in the Beit Sourik decision that this is a point agreed upon by all parties. Throughout the court rulings, the Court repeatedly quotes the respondents (in the Alfei Menashe case, this is The Prime Minister of Israel, The Minister of Defense, The Commander of IDF Forces in the Judea and Samaria Area, The Separation Fence Authority, The Alfei Menashe Local Council - i.e. the Israeli government) as arguing not that Israeli control of the West Bank is not "belligerent occupation," but merely that the way they want to build the wall conforms to the laws of belligerent occupation.

Now, the Israeli government may put out press released saying the territory isn't occupied. But given a clear chance to argue this before their own high court, the government refused, instead arguing on other grounds, and accepting that the territories are occupied. If the government of Israel is not even willing to make it's "this is not technically an occupation" argument in its own court over an issue to which this question would be definitely relevant, I don't think the fact that they like to put out poorly argued press released to the contrary should be respected by wikipedia as a reason for not using the most common name as an article.

Let's revisit this. Who says the territories are occupied, or calls them the "occupied territories"?

1. academic publications
2. the world media
3. The Israeli media
4. The United Nations Security Council
5. The United States government
6. The Supreme Court of Israel
7. The government of Israel in their legal arguments before the Supreme Court

Who says this is an incorrect term?

1. some zionist groups
2. the settler movement
3. The government of Israeli in propaganda releases

I'd hesitate a guess that legal academia is divided on the issue. Andjam 05:40, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

On what basis? If the Israeli government is not willing to argue in its own courts that the territories are not occupied under international law, what makes you think that anybody else is willing to carry their water for them? john k 06:51, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Are we really saying that these two sides are equivalent? If we assume that the Israeli government cancels itself out by arguing both ways in different contexts, we are left with "some zionist groups" and the settler movement on one side, and the entire body of both international and Israeli law and usage throughout the world. How is this even a contest? The position that the territories are not occupied is such a fringe position that there is absolutely no reason to show deference to it by refusing to use "occupied" in the title of the article. It is completely absurd for wikipedia to be more pro-Israeli government than the Israeli government itself is willing to be when it counts (that is, before the court, rather than in press releases where nothing's at stake.) john k 21:13, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Time to rename: follow up to JK

If we have an Armenian Genocide title, we need to have an Occupied Territories one. The position of the Israeli govt. is not greater than that of the Turkish one, we need to follow political-diplomatic-media-scholarly-etc. consensus, the legalistic arguments are of no consequence over this decision of what to rename this article into. Within a few days, I am prepared to rename the article to OT (or I-OT, if there's greater interest in that). If anyone has objections, now is the time to reiterate and rearticulate in the most clear and direct way, noting the parallels and factors mentioned, and by JK above, and elsewhere. We can't go on like this indefinitely. Thanks everyone. El_C 00:02, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I would prefer Israeli-Occupied Territories. Brian Tvedt 11:58, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

My preference would be "Occupied Territories (Israeli)," just because the are often referred to as just "the Occupied Territories." If "Occupied Territories" (no further adjective) is used, then a final section should be added noting other "occupied territories" around the world, and the general information at the current "OT" article should be moved to "occupied territory." "I-OT" is also reasonable. Marsden 13:20, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

We had a poll and there doesn't seem to be a consensus to change it. SlimVirgin 13:36, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Though perhaps El C's creation of the other one dealt with the objections. SlimVirgin 13:37, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Do you still object? What do you think of the arguments I've made? In terms of a vote, if we really want to settle this by a vote, we should announce it, so that people other than those already involved in the article can vote? In terms of the current vote, in addition to the seven of us who already voted for a move, Brian and ElC have now indicated their support for a move. That makes it 9 to 5. That means 64% in favor of the move. Not a consensus, but a supermajority. In terms of where the article should be, I think this article should be moved to Occupied Territories (when this term is referred to without modifier, the territories occupied by the Israelis after 1967 are almost always meant). As Marsden suggests, the more generic article can be at Occupied territory. If this is unacceptable, I agree that Israeli-occupied Territories is the marginally better disambiguator, because Occupied Territories (Israeli) is a bit confusing. Maybe Occupied Territories (Middle East)? john k 14:28, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Further note - in addition, Rd232 and Grace Note have clearly expressed their support for Occupied Territories as the title, and Cybbe has made a comment implying support for the same. That would make it 12 to 5 - 71% in favor...I suppose this perhaps shouldn't be counted - Rd232, at least, explicitly said he wasn't voting. But there still seems to be a strong majority in support of moving. I'm not sure why, when this title was established without consensus, we should have to keep it at this title unless there is consensus - this seems to lead to the basic procedural unfairness of "whoever supports the way something was done first gets to filibuster any change." john k 14:37, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Vizcarra's vote doesn't really count - he's only here as a result of a campaign of harrassing SlimVirgin and me - so the actual vote is 8 to 5. Jayjg 18:04, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't think Andjam's vote should count, either. I'll make up ... er, provide ... a reason once we've all agreed to abide by the result of the vote. So the actual vote is 8 to 4, a super-majority by most people's reckonings. I also reserve the right to decide that Humus Sapien's vote doesn't count, either, but as a show of good faith I'd be willing to leave Humus' vote uncontested and leave it at an 8-to-4 result. Marsden 20:29, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

LOL! Actually, Andjam has been a serious contributor to this page; Vizcarra's history is clear. Not that it's all that relevant. Jayjg 20:45, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Oh boy! Wrangling about vote totals! Jay - do you have any response to any of the multitudinous arguments I made above? Or are you just going to argue about how to interpret this stupid vote? john k 04:21, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

How come only Jay's comment came in for criticism? Andjam 00:30, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Because Jay started the wrangling over votes, perhaps? john k 01:37, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

John, it was Marsden who started the vote, and it was you who started including people who hadn't voted, which could be called wrangling over votes too. Please don't make personal comments. This page has seen enough of them to last a lifetime. SlimVirgin 05:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't including people who hadn't voted in the vote, because I think the vote is nonsense - it was never announced anywhere. I was merely counting up the number of people who, in the course of this discussion, have indicated support for including "occupied" in the title, against the number of people who have indicated opposition. And I didn't make any personal comments, that I'm aware of. john k 07:56, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm reassured that we have relative agreement toward the move, and yes, to follow up on Slim's comment, I think my Occupied-Disputed subarticle answers much of the hitherto objections. I partially agree with both Marsden and fully with JK. With the former, on renaming the current OTs into an OT in case we opt to rename this article into OTs, and with the latter, that we should either go for OT or I-OT, but not OT(I). El_C 22:07, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Occupied Territories (Middle East) might be interpreted as referring to former occupation(s) of Lebanon, or accusations that certain countries have a de facto occupation of Iraq, or Kurdish-majority portions of Turkey, or ... Andjam 07:31, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Good point - it is too vague. I imagine Ocupied Territories (Levant) is rather too obscure. john k 04:21, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

If the word "occupied" is going to be in the title, then I'd go for "Israeli-occupied territories". Misplaced Pages shouldn't have the same attitude towards occupation as Lawrence Lowell had about cheating in exams. Andjam 05:40, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

The difference between the two, I believe, is that I-OT sounds more academic (see Britanica's I-OAT article above), whereas OT is more journalistic. Generally, I think Misplaced Pages should attempt to reflect the former rather than the latter. El_C 06:00, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Israeli-occupied Territories is fine with me. I'm going to suggest we just move it there and then prevent any move back on the basis that there is no consensus for a move. I'm getting tired of this - a clear majority of those who have been discussing it on this page have been in favor of the move. There is no reason to believe that a larger sample would not find the same result. Most of the arguments against the move have, in my not so neutral opinion, been effectively answered. What more is needed here? john k 04:21, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Getting nowhere, a real vote seems to be necessary

Alright, matters have gotten to a point of maximum unpleasantness and anger on all sides, in which I am perhaps more to blame than anybody else. It seems clear that there is no possible way we are going to get everyone to agree. So, it seems that we have no choice but the unpleasantness of a vote. By a vote, I don't mean an informal poll on this page. That is worthless. It should be a real vote, announced in as many places as possible (especially Misplaced Pages:Current surveys and Misplaced Pages:Requested moves.) I would suggest approval voting, with four options - the current title, Territories captured by Israel in 1967, Occupied Territories, and Israeli-occupied Territories. The option with the most votes wins, and we agree never to speak of this again. john k 19:22, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I have to disagree. All the arguments in favor of each title have been made, as far as I can tell. There has been no substantive response to a number of the points in favor of using "occupied" in the title. Unless this changes, I say that we just move the page and revert those who try to move it back unless and until they make some substantive response. Holding a vote will just give the obstructionists (we all know who they are) a chance to rally the troops and prevent the move solely by numbers rather than reasoned argument. —Charles P. (Mirv) 20:52, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Why don't you spell it out, Charles? Just exactly who are the "obstructionists", and how are they "obstructing"? Is it any wonder I've been avoiding this cesspool? Thanks for adding to the aroma. Jayjg 06:09, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Hmm...Well, I tend to think that numbers would end up favoring the move. But my instincts are really conflicted on this. On the one hand, if you read my comments yesterday and this morning, you'll see that I basically agree with you. On the other hand, I'm t fairly certain that a unilateral move will not resolve things, given the discussion so far. Obviously, I will not oppose a move, if you want to go ahead with it. Perhaps it would be better to move it, and then those who do not like the new title can, if they so desire, organize a move request which could be voted on. At any rate, I'm not going to argue about this any further. The arguments have been made, and are on the talk page. If there ends up being a vote, I will dutifully vote, but I'm not going to spend any more time shadowboxing here. john k 23:19, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't think a vote is needed either. Give it another few days and if there is no substantive reponse to the points made by you and El C, we can consider the matter closed and move the page. The editors who oppose the move would have a hard time defending their position after ignoring such a clearly expressed invitation to state their case. I think the most important thing for those of us who do want to move the page is to close ranks and agree on the new title. I think Israeli-occupied territories has the most support. If anyone disagrees, now is the time to say so. Brian Tvedt 02:07, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

This seems like the most clearly supported location - Andjam also said he was willing to accept this as the least objectionable version including the word "occupation". john k 02:18, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

It is clear that the current article title is missleading for describing Israel proper in addition to the Territories, and we have a majority agreeing that "Occupied Territories" belongs in the title, with "Israeli-Occupied Territories" having the most support/least objection. A compelling argument has been made for including "Occupied Territories" in the title (notably, that the Israeli government itself is at most split in opposing the term) for which no substantive rebuttal has been made. A move to Israeli-Occupied Territories (I think the capitalized form should be used, but that's a minor point) is very strongly indicated, in my opinion. I agree that if the argument for the change remains substantially unrebutted after a couple of days, we should make the change. You can't please all the people all the time. Any remaining complaints about anyone's behavior -- including mine -- should be addressed formally if it is felt that there is cause, but should not be allowed to stand in the way of this article's name being moved from a clearly missleading name to a name that most of us agree with. Marsden 19:57, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Frankly, I've felt discouraged to participate much on this page because it degraded to too much hostility to allow for reasonable discussion. I will likely make this my final comment before I abandon the page altogether. I'm not thrilled with "Occupied Territories" precisely because there is dispute about it, and I don't mean just between editors on this page. John's examples of other disputed name situations (i.e., Armenian Genocide) make a valid point, but I'm having difficulty bringing that to the logical conclusion that we can summarily dismiss questioning the NPOVness of any disputed name such as "Occupied Territories" just because other (perhaps apples and oranges) examples exist. I could probably live with the "occupied" title, though I feel quite strong-armed into it. Aside from the POVness of the title, I do have an even greater problem with the ambiguity of "Occupied Territories". Yes, it's popularly used, but in a variety of ways that often makes it unclear which (Israeli occupied) territories specifically are being discussed. I think more often than not, it is really just used as a synonym for the Palestinian territories. That's why I still believe the best encylopedic solution, one that Ramallite first suggested, and I concurred, but to which no one else offered any feedback, is to have a disambig page for Occupied Territories (Israeli) or Israeli-Occupied Territories, which lists several related articles, including this one which I believe should be something like Territories captured by Israel in 1967, Palestinian territories, and Status of territories captured by Israel, for starters. Since "occupied territories" can refer to different things, wouldn't a disambig page seem the most logical alternative? --MPerel 03:32, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I too have avoided this page precisely because of the unwarranted and, at times, vicious hostility - see the latest anon comments below for another example. This Talk: page has been made needlessly unpleasant, as has the article itself: when new editors make it their "mission" to stay on Misplaced Pages only to battle other editors, fill Talk: pages with personal attacks on and lies about other editors, recruit people to revert war for them, even giving them explicit instructions on how to do so , then recruit people to vote for them , well, why would the victims of their abuse want to stick around? Jayjg 06:04, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Do we need to harp on this? Why don't we try to constructively engage, and ignore the trolls and trolling as best we can? john k 06:16, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Because I come back to the newly abbreviated talk page, hoping that it has finally been cleared of all the toxicity, and find longstanding editors filling the page with ugly innuendo (see above), and anonymous IPs filling it with explicit (albeit oblique) conspiracy theory crap, of the same sort that has been spilled endlessly here already. Jayjg 06:19, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

MPerel, just a brief point - one of the arguments which has been made is that there really isn't very much dispute over the use of "Occupied Territories" - it's been pointed out by me and others that even a more right wing media outlet like the Jerusalem Post is willing to use it, and that the Israeli government accepted that its position in the West Bank was one of occupation in its arguments before the Israel Supreme Court on the West Bank fence/wall.

At any rate, in terms of ambiguity, I'm not really sure how to deal with this - I agree that sometimes just the West Bank and Gaza are meant. But it seems to me that almost anyone would admit that technically, the Golan Heights are also a part of the occupied territories, and that the Sinai was. This article, as it is, contains a summary of what we mean by "Occupied Territories" and links to the other article - notably Palestianian territories. So I don't see that as a huge problem. If we did go the disambiguation page route, though, I'd suggest that the disambiguation page be Occupied territories, that the current occupied territories article be moved to occupied territory, and that the disambig page link to the general occupied territory article, this page at Territories captured by Israel in 1967, the Palestinian territories article, and the article about the legal dispute (such as it is). I think this would be an acceptable solution.

BTW, isn't "Palestinian territories" just as disputed and potentially POV a term as "Occupied territories," if not considerably more so? Why was there never a fight over there about naming? john k 04:13, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe because it's feels pro-Palestinian rather than anti-Israeli, and it's better to be positive than negative. Andjam 13:56, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Depending on how disengagement goes, there's also going to be disagreement over whether Gaza should be included in the article or not, unless the article definition is so broad it also includes formerly occupied territories or the article definition is related to Palestine. Andjam 14:15, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't think so - the Sinai is included, and it has been fully returned to Egypt. This article is about territories which have been at some point since 1967 occupied by Israel, not just territories which are occupied at present. john k 17:53, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Besides, the issue whether the Gaza Strip is still considered occupied is by no means decided by Israel unilateral withdrawal of it's settlements. See for instance the legal position of the PLO. Cybbe 19:53, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Proposed names

(For brevity's sake, I'd prefer it if the case for or against each name wasn't done in this section but in other sections) John K has proposed

• the status quo (Territories under Israeli control)
• Territories captured by Israel in 1967
• Occupied Territories and
• Israeli-occupied Territories.
• Palestinian territories has also been suggested.

Since that is already an article, and since this article discusses the Golan and Sinai, which are not Palestinian, I do not think this is an appropriate potential title. john k 17:41, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

• Would anyone else here be in favour of "Territorial disputes involving Israel" being listed as an option? Andjam 13:07, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I would not be - I think that would be a different article. If you wanted to write such an article, that would be fine. john k

No-one has supported my suggestion, so ok. (both strikeouts by me) Andjam 14:15, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Capitalize "occupied" in title?

Can we do this? It doesn't look right, as is. Marsden 00:41, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Or make "Territories" lower case? Andjam 01:49, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I'd go for that. Marsden 14:58, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok, done (a little while ago). Andjam 16:39, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, lower case. See Encyclopædia Britannica's Israeli-occupied Arab territories, for a random example. 10:31, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

"Territories under Israeli control moved to Israeli-occupied Territories: Renaming as promised and agreed upon"

Can someone explain what "Renaming as promised and agreed upon" refers to? The consensus may end up being "Israeli-occupied erritories", but if the promise is made-up, that is so not cool. Andjam 02:23, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

You should investigate, perhaps! I sense wrongdoing, made-up promises, possibly evildoin'! Exclamation points means I'm excited! Excited about your forthcoming investigation, that is! Either way, it should be better than these latest abomination "films" by that idiot, Lucas! 10:31, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Sarcasm and faking a signature in response to a question about bad-faith editing is not helpful. Please stop insulting me. Andjam 14:08, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Ah, more "faking" and "made-up" bit! :) Assuming good faith is a arsh mistress, indeed. But at the event, I only insulted Lucas! 15:04, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Please, can you stop the sarcasm? With regards to criticism, I found "It really is quite simple, Andjam" a bit rude, and also found a bit rude your pedantic answer to my question about some sections that were at one stage archived but were later on in the main talk page. Also, virtually all of your edit history has been to do with me. I'm finding it a bit disturbing. Andjam 16:33, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I also edited the lead paragraph to India! Anyway, it's unfortunate you find my light satire to be so insultingly sarcastic and pedantic. At the time, I wasn't fully aware to which sections were archived, because it was redlinked when I saw it. Please assume good faith. That goes for this ip's edit history vis.a.vis. yourself, too. Thanks again for all your patience! 16:41, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

If you didn't happen to know which sections were archived, how come unarchived exactly the same material as you "accidentally" unarchived previously? Unsigned without a time stamp by User:Andjam, on 17:05, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I remebered which sections I archived; my memory isn't that short, and it was, after all, only a few hours ago. 17:05, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Also, where does the "accidentally" quote come from, and whom are you quoting? I didn't include the last two sections on the talk page here by accident. On closer look, I disagree with User:John Kenney method (see, I'm able to avoid mention of his person, unlike as he did with me: stating as a matter of fact that I'm "Obnoxious") mass archiving of everything, and I, myself, am in favour of some continuity. And I am entitled to hold that view without my motives being questioned. Though they should. 21:34, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Obnoxiousness from the anon aside, I think that there was sufficient support for moving, and insufficient articulate opposition, to allow the article to rest here, for the moment. As I said above, if you (Andjam) would like to sponsor a requested move to move the page to a different location, you should go ahead and do this, and we can have a proper vote. john k 18:35, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I take exception to that mischaracterization, User:John Kenney. Please review closely and adhere to WP:CIVIL and WP:WQT. TIA. 18:54, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Oh, come on. john k 19:01, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Now I'm offended. 19:13, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I upset the troll? How can I ever live with myself? john k 21:59, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Hostility and civility

The open proxy contributions (66.98.180.53, 66.139.76.245 and 69.193.242.60) are mine. The reason I made anonymous edits was not to deceive editors, but as a safety precaution that is no longer necessary. A few people (outside of Misplaced Pages) knew/know my real life identity and I've had to spend some time to assure them that I'm not a "useful idiot" and/or "self-hating" and/or a "traitor"; that being pro-Israeli and anti-propaganda is not mutually exclusive (or being pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian). Far from it. On October 3 I was banned indefinitely "for sockpuppetry", which was ridiculous and against Misplaced Pages policy. However, now any admin can block/ban me for that same offence, since I have for two days de facto violated the policy. Absurdly enough, the lie became truth. :-) Another offence I'm guilty of is accusing Jayjg (without providing evidence) of having User:John McW as a sockpuppet. (John McW who has made some really inflammatory comments ) My suggestion is that Jayjg and SlimVirgin's friend User:David Gerard investigate the matter and if he comes to the conclusion that John McW isn't a sockpuppet of Jayjg, then he's free to block me (again). Alternative suggestion is that MPerel, who is somewhat of an expert could by using the "psycho-linguistic empirical method" (or equivalent method) compare the semantics/syntax of John McW and Jayjg, and if she finds that they're different people - then SlimVirgin is free to block me. I've found it deplorable that instead of dealing with substantive arguments in an intellectual and emphatic manner the 'debate' here has instead been about long-time editors vs. short time editors, and such things, all saturated with vicious hostility and power struggle. And because I like the idea of Misplaced Pages, I've been confused on how to react to this; just walk away, or adapt the "When in Rome" philosophy. --saxet 09:21, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

69.193.242.60 most definitely isn't saxet, nor an open proxy (strike out above is my own addition). 10:31, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

My mistake - I copied, from the history page, the IP# that I thought came from whatever open proxy server I was routed through. Obviously, it should have been a total of two, not three, addresses. All apologies. --saxet 11:11, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Saxet - a couple of points: 1) you are allowed to use sock puppets, so long as the intent is not to deceive, to get around bans, or to otherwise violate policy. I don't think David ever presented any evidence that this was the case in banning you, and I unbanned you almost immediately, so you have not been banned for all this time, so I don't think you've violating any policy by editing as an anon. Secondly, I would suggest that you certainly should not be claiming, without any evidence at all, that Jay is using a sock puppet. I think this incredibly unlikely, and that it is extremely unhelpful for you to bring up this issue again. That said, even if it could be proved that your statement was made in error (since you bring it up again, I will assume you were not knowingly lying in making this accusation), that would not be grounds for a block, although it might be grounds for Jay to ask for arbitration against you. john k 18:31, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

It seems I need to read up on that policy, I honestly thought it was a violation to edit the same page with two different usernames (even if there wasn't an intention to deceive). Anyway, whether it's permitted or not there's no need for me to do so again. In regard to the Jayjg/John McW issue I would be extremely surprised if the information I was presented with was inaccurate. It may be unhelpful for me to have brought it up again but it wasn't done in malice or as a personal vendetta - I think Jayjg would be an excellent editor to Misplaced Pages, but maybe not an admin. And I felt that it was necessary to counter his assessment on how/why the atmosphere here got so ugly. Also - I think it may be the case that maybe you and a few others don't really know what ad hominem actually is; it "involves replying to an argument or assertion by addressing the person presenting the argument or assertion rather than the argument itself." For example; when SlimVirgin accused you of "ad hominem remarks" it was in fact SV who made an ad hominem argument since you didn't evade any arguments in the post where you addressed Jayjg and SlimVirgin's reluctance to respond to substantive arguments. It sort of annoys me that 'well regarded long-time editors' seem to get away with those kind of things. MPerel writes on my user page that I'm disruptive to the purpose of building an encyclopaedia, yet if one looks at her history she has hardly made any edits to any articles but have mainly engaged in voting and such. She actually proposed that we should go through some 'psycholinguistic testing' to determine the "loadedness" of various terms in our psyches. And I'm being disruptive… I've also been the subject of WP:NPA et cetera, either explicitly or implicitly, but when I respond it is I who violated this or that guideline and it is I who "should be careful not to attack" a long-time editor. I may lack in civility at times but I have no intention of showing undue respect to the VIPs. In fact, it could have been a lot worse, considering the few times I've been close to getting seriously hostile, but restrained myself. I'll take a short break from this article now, been planning anyway to write articles about a couple of short stories by JL Borges. --saxet 22:14, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Minor move of title

I have moved "Israeli-occupied Territories" to "Israeli-occupied territories", following support from a couple of people above. Andjam 15:57, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, "Israeli-occupied territories" with the lower case t is definitely an improvement. I would (obviously) have preferred "Occupied Territories" or "Occupied Territories (Israeli)", but I guess I can live with this title. --saxet 16:36, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

To Yuber: "Syrian Heights" contemporary usage

To Yuber. Italics are my (contemporaneity) emphasis:

• n light of the continued Israeli occupation of the Syrian heights — Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Center for Special Studies (C.S.S), The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI), May 30, 2005

• The Tishrin article is not only profoundly immoral, it is also stupid from the point of view of Syrian, and indeed Arab, interests. It strengthens the Israeli right-wing, which opposes the withdrawal from the Syrian heights. — Source cited: haGalil Online, translation of an article to be published in Ma'ariv on February 07, 2000. And: A very determined effort is needed to counter the brainwashing that has been going on for so long against the return of the Syrian heights to their rightful owners. haGalil Online, Translation of an article to be published in Ma'ariv on December 27, 1999

• King Hussein said "I hope this could be a positive step on the way towards not only the withdrawal from Lebanon, which is an implementation of the U.N. Security Council Resolution, a decision which we have so long waited for. The same should apply to the occupied Syrian Heights" — The Royal Hashemite Court official website.

• However, Israeli sources said that one Israeli military unit was attacked in the occupied Syrian heights, but no casualties were reported. — Source cited: Arabic News, 6/28/2005.

• The Golan will probably revert to the Syrian Heights, while Katzrin, Neveh Ativ, Ortal and 30 others will become historic episodes as esoteric as New Mecklenburg. Barak's name changes of course will be more than cosmetic and far from innocuous. They will also mean population displacement and the destruction of three decades of dedicated labor. — Source cited: Bet El Twinning Committee of Beth Avraham Yoseph of Toronto, Issue number 255, January 21, 2000.

• also rejected the return of Palestinian refugees to their homeland, and suggested only the possibility of a withdrawal "on" rather than "from" the Syrian heights. These positions were accompanied by a stream of statements declaring a commitment to peace, and even setting a year 2000 deadline for an agreement (Usher, 1999) — Source cited: Peace and Conflict Studies, Volume 7, Number 1, May 2000.

• The occupied Golan has formally been annexed, settled by Israelis, and, contrary to international legislation, Israel has been extensively exploiting its nature resources: "Mey Eden", an Israeli-based mineral water producer, is pumping in the occupied Golan. Typically, even the Yizchak Rabin Monument in Tel-Aviv is made of black basalt from the Syrian Heights. — Source cited: "The New World Order and the Stone Age Israel's Next Target: Syria," from Anti-War.com Thanks, Yuber! 18:54, 18 October 2005 (UTC)