Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:53, 20 October 2005

Supporters

1. CheeseDreams
2. WojPob
3. Jimbo Wales
4. AyeSpy
5. OprgaG,
6. Invictus
7. Koyaanis Qatsi,
8. Pinkunicorn
9. sjc
10. Mike Dill
11. Taw
12. GWO
13. NetEsq
14. Anthère
15. Lir
16. Rotem Dan -- I think encouraging any constructive contributers is fine (as opposed to vandals and trolls), these folks may learn the do's and dont's in the hard way, but possibly lead the 'pedia into new directions..
17. TheOmnilord -- In a very tongue in cheek way.
18. ☮ Eclecticology Rigidly opposing rigidity.
19. Frecklefoot -- I didn't read all of the 'pedia's rule before contributing. When I needed to know a rule pertaining to something specific, I looked it up.
20. Olathe -- I don't like bureaucracy, but I won't go so far as to start unnecessary wars. I can always undo my changes later if necessary.
21. Fantasy
22. Wikinator
23. ]
24. 172 18:47, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC) But Follow with discretion and occasionally ignore this rule. 172 18:47, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
25. Eequor - better to be constructively wrong than destructively right.
26. Guanaco 16:37, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
27. Snowspinner 05:31, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC) This rule is the essence of soft securty vs hard security.
28. The Cunctator 05:27, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC) I think I'm going to support it again.
29. —siroχo 13:01, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC) within reason. Policy isn't meant to be absolute, but to aid the development of the encyclopedia.
30. Lst27 (talk) 03:29, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
31. Deco 04:08, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC) — Either I don't understand this rule, or people who object to this rule don't understand it. No editor has to know or follow the rules, because others will clean up after them, stop them, or do whatever else they have to do. It's certainly more polite to follow the rules, but in the end what we need is raw material we can polish into good content. Deco 04:08, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
32. Amgine
33. Elian this rule is essential to maintain the openess of Misplaced Pages for goodwilling new contributors (see also de:Benutzer:Elian/Regeln in german)
34. Beta_M. Yes, i was waiting for the rule like that. Otherwise you end up with "good old boy network" where only people who already know what they are doing are welcome to endit anything. Beta_M , | (Ë-Mail)
35. Gubbubu 15:42, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC) some editors like to use Misplaced Pages policies for killing other's oppinions. I'm fed up with them. Gubbubu
36. Mindspillage (spill yours?)
37. Dan100
38. JondelI Jondel, do hereby pledge my support and strict obedience to this particular rule in law and spirit and to the best of my abilities. And please don't take this seriously.
39. Kim Bruning 10:32, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC) I thought I'd already supported this!
40. Dralwik 01:40, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC) AMEN.
41. Wgfinley 19:26, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
42. User-Name 22:20, 7 May 2005 (UTC) A little creativity never hurt anyone.
43. Never realized there was voting on this. older≠wiser 02:17, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
44. Okay, I'll support now. As long as people are happy and editing. Radiant_* 10:10, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
45. human if this is the only rule followed, vandals won't know what rules to break. I think that as WP evolves into a better and better resource, the barrier to newcomers adding information will seem higher - hence referrals to this rule "invite them in" in a friendly way.
46. Sarge Baldy 08:16, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
47. malathion
48. Me 04:36, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
49. Shackleton 20:36, 2 August 2005 (UTC) - Seriously, some rules aren't even worth fighting for and exist solely for the sake of standardization, however arbitrary.
50. Kelly Martin 14:10, August 6, 2005 (UTC) - I can't believe I've neglected doing this for so long. Kelly Martin 14:10, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
51. zachol It could be rephrased, but the general idea (don't feel as if you have to follow the rules perfectly) should still stand. zachol 06:59, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
52. Acetic Acid It comes in handy, as long as you don't abuse or misinterpret it. 10:04, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
53. Egg 13:01, August 26, 2005 (UTC) - This rule doesn't say "Misplaced Pages is anarchy" and it doesn't invalidate all the other considerable rules. I comprehend it as: Follow the spirit, not the letter, of any rules, policies and guidelines since Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy.
54. Mysidia 06:49, 28 August 2005 (UTC) Rules are often right, but often wrong too. Decent practice is more important, and the letter of rules should be ignored sometimes in favor of respecting the desire of the community -- we shouldn't need Wikilawyers, and we needn't fear making vandalism legitimate by retaining IAR.
55. —MESSEDROCKER (talk) 22:38, September 10, 2005 (UTC) - I like the whole concept of how rules shouldn't get in your way, though calling it "Ignore all rules" may give people the wrong impression
56. --Celestianpower 23:23, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Opponents

1. tbc
2. AxelBoldt -- deliberately breaking them is fine; ignoring them is not -- ignorance is bad.
3. Rednblu -- //AxelBoldt's comment jumps OUT. Yes! That's it.//
4. David
5. Larry Sanger (User has left the project)
6. Kaihsu 22:07 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)
7. Noldoaran (Talk)
8. Lethe 15:23, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC) -- (if you support "ignore all rules", shouldn't you be opposed to "ban repeat vandals"?)
9. BadSanta -- The proponents are NOT serious. Anarchy gives rise to chaos. Without ANY enforced rules, Misplaced Pages would experience rampant destruction. Freedom still exists abundantly (except to break rules).
10. SimonP 23:18, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC), with the three revert rule, and other regulations, users will quickly be banned if they decide to ignore official policies.

    Comment 3RR can be ignored in the case of vandalism. Acetic Acid 10:06, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

11. I would like to rephrase to: If all the rules on Misplaced Pages make you confused or depressed, ignore them and use your indwelling common sense and decency instead. dab (ᛏ) 10:27, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
12. In favour of flexibility and bending/breaking the odd rule/guideline, but not in favour of anarchy (page name, "Ignore all rules"). zoney ♣ talk 20:31, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
13. тəzєті I am in favor for users that are new ignoring Misplaced Pages's markup and other rules such as this and users breaking small rules is not a problem, however telling people to ignore every rule as a wikipedia policy is encouraging vandalists and all rulebreakers.
14. The rule was formulated in the early days of Misplaced Pages to attract developers (see Larry Sanger quote below). Times have changed. We have a lot of developers and we do need the rules if we want them to be able to work together. (Of course, small rules can be ignored.) nyenyec ☎ 20:37, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
15. This is silly, and guaranteed to be followed in the worst way by the ignorant. — Xiong熊talk* 11:29, 2005 May 8 (UTC)
    • I still think the proposal is silly, but I do have to add how much I detest unnecessary rules. — Xiong熊talk* 08:36, 2005 August 6 (UTC)
16. This is both silly and dangerous. Within the past 24 hrs this was quoted to me as a reason for an admin to ignore a clear policy restriction on use of admin powers. This should be significantly qualified or else deleted. DES 15:19, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
17. You've gotta be kidding me. --LBMixPro 12:55, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
18. Makes no sense. If rules make you nervous and depressed, grow up already, deal with the real world, go make your own blog or something and leave large projects like this the heck alone. DreamGuy 03:09, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
19. Howabout1 14:16, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
20. This is just a reason anyone can use to do any kind of vandalism. Elfguy 17:50, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
21. As explained below. --SPUI (talk) 17:36, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
22. I've seen people suggest that this trumps WP:NOT too many times. It's become a liability. Besides, the only sentence in it I see a real positive contribution from is "Actions that are obnoxious but not expressly forbidden–including the practice of 'rules-lawyering'–will attract censure," although I'd like to see that rephrased to "Actions that are obnoxious but not expressly forbidden-including the practice of 'rules-lawyering'-are expressly forbidden." The Literate Engineer 14:16, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Comments

I say this'll work fine so long as people exhibit common courtesy and don't decide wikipedia is a medium for proselytism. -- JoshuaGrosse

It is interesting to think about the dynamics of social interaction within a wiki. Everyone's impact on the medium is, in a sense, exactly equal to their participation in the medium.

As an example, let's take a view which is just obviously wrong to most of us (although someone else might not agree), let's say the view that the earth is really flat. If flat-earthers descend on the site in hoards, then they will eventually win unless pre-flat-earth regulars band together to continually refactor the pages. It isn't necessarily about numbers, but also about how dedicated the numbers are.

On Usenet, the same people argue endlessly for years on end. I know of some newsgroups that I used to be addicted to, where I know that if I went back today, some of the same people would be there arguing the same things they were arguing 10 years ago.

The interesting thing about Misplaced Pages, though, is that another group might end up with the real upper hand -- those who seek to refactor pages in an effort to end controversy. A statement, for example, of the Scientology issue, that is satisfactory to both sides, would probably be a great achievement, recognized by all as such. It would probably be left alone.  :-) --User:Jimbo Wales

I now pleasantly ponder the paradox encountered by those who seek to rigorously follow this rule. --User:Jimbo Wales

Well, what about the related paradox that there is no Rule to decide that something is a Rule (and so should be ignored) --User:OprgaG

I don't know what's going on but I'm sure Kurt Gödel would have something to say about it.

My MBTI is INTJ. I live to make the rules. :-) <>< User:tbc

My MBTI is ESTP. I must destroy rules - create m:visions - however I tend to agree with Axel that deliberate disciplined rule-breaking sets useful precedent, but disagree about ignorance - a healthy ignorance of what does not matter is necessary to a happy life 24

User:Jimbo Wales's observation of the 'no-rules' paradox has an interesting implication for wikipedia. As with all real-world paradoxes, this one generates a possibly infinite loop: one person edits a page any way they want, another person disagrees and changes it, the first person changes it back, and so on. Although one of the parties will probably get tired of this loop, the possibility of its existence does imply that those editors who follow no rules will waste their own editing time, and possibly require extra editing time for others as well. When you multiply such infinite loops by the number of such contentious pages, you probably would get a major drain on the encyclopedia's resources. David 11:40 Aug 9, 2002 (PDT)

The real paradox is that in order to follow this rule you must ignore it.

is this a flaw in the NPOV? or a flaw in the software?

The rule begins with "If rules make you nervous and depressed..." There is no paradox at all, this rule serves to (1) permit editing by the chronically-afraid-of-doing-things-wrong and (2) reduce their nervousness and depression about the rules (someone will come along and fix the problem without yelling at you). Misplaced Pages has a lot of rules (Naming conventions, Describe external links, Use color sparingly...), it's just that we won't kill you if you break them. Perhaps this rule should be rephrased: "The purpose of editing articles is to make them better, not to make them perfect." Paullusmagnus 23:09, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC) (P.S.: my MBTI is INTP: I live to rewrite the rules)

IMHO, this rule is the essence of Misplaced Pages, as it reflects the axiomatic supremacy of the individual. To wit, those who need rules can make them up and debate them; those who don't need rules can ignore them. As for the 'no-rules' paradox, and the resulting drain on the encyclopedia's resources, this is a necessary evil. I, for one, have never been a believer in the "practical limitations" of openness. Rather, when I disagree with someone, I state my view and state my reasons, then I do my best to figure out what their view is and the reasons why they hold that view. In the context of Misplaced Pages, I believe that this sort of debate should take place on talk pages rather than turning Misplaced Pages articles into ideological battlegrounds. But that's just my personal opinion. Other people are free to ignore it.--NetEsq

I wrote this rule and was its first supporter; but I think we have outgrown it. I'm moving my name to the "opponents" category. --Larry Sanger

I think common sense is pretty useful. Lir 19:15 Nov 9, 2002 (UTC)

"Common sense is merely the collection of prejudices aquired by the age of eighteen" - Einstein
Palefire

"Common sense is not so common." —Voltaire

"Common sense always speaks too late. Common sense is the guy who tells you you ought to have had your brakes relined last week before you smashed a front end this week. Common sense is the Monday morning quarterback who could have won the ball game if he had been on the team. But he never is. He’s high up in the stands with a flask on his hip. Common sense is the little man in a grey suit who never makes a mistake in addition. But it’s always somebody else’s money he’s adding up." —Raymond Chandler (1888–1959), Philip Marlowe, in Playback, ch. 14 (1958).

I would rather see a rule similar to the one that the great haiku poet Bashō is supposed to have told his disciples: "Know the rules before you break them." BlankVerse ∅ 05:24, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Fun-Fulfillment

The point is fulfillment, fun , a sense of contribution. Too many rules tend to choke this out.--Jondel 07:48, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Title

Shouldn't the title be changed to "Ignore rules when necessary". "Ignore all rules" could be used by people vandalizing Misplaced Pages. тəzєті 18:52, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)

You've just made the mistake of reading the rule too literally. Part of the purpose of having such a guideline is to remind people not to be excessively literal in following the letter, rather than the spirit, of the rules. --Michael Snow 20:37, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Proposed rephrasing

After reading some of the discussion above, perhaps a more agreeable rule is this one:

Enforce rules gently.

In other words, don't attack people who don't bold their article title or name an article with a verb. Just fix it for them and drop them a friendly reminder if warranted. I think this has much of the desired effect of this rule (you can edit without fear) without its strange connontations of encouraging rampant rulebreaking. Deco 05:40, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Or Give some kind of first warning(?) The second or third (or fourth )administrators are ussually ruthless or bold. I'm sure everybody follows rules more or less and will do something to prevent wikipedia from devolving to anarchy.--Jondel 05:59, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I disagree most strenuously with this rephrasing. This rule is not, and never really has been a warning to sysops. Rather, it's a permission to everybody. It's saying, "Look, if you really want to do X because X will be easier for you to contribute, do X, and we'll tidy it up." The two implied howevers are "But do keep in mind, we're going to tidy it up, and if you pitch a fit we'll be mad," and "X had better be done in good faith." But first and foremost, this rule means "Go ahead, we can fix just about anything you do in good faith." That's very, very different. Snowspinner 14:09, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

Concur with Snowspinner. Note that the implication is "Ignore all rules... even this one." It's not promoting anarchy, it's promoting common sense: policies and guidelines are good and necessary, but too much legalistic enforcement of them is neither. Also, I am sure that anyone using this rule to justify blatant abuse would have to face the consequences they deserved from nearly every single person on the Support side, and as well they should. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 14:26, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Would a note about respect the spirit of the rules be useful here? Thryduulf 14:55, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This is true — it's sort of aimed at a different audience, the idea being that it's not a rule you follow but a rule you take solace in others following. I also agree that it's more a guideline than a rule. I do disagree though with your implication that only sysops enforce rules — to the contrary they bear very little of this collective burden. Deco 03:29, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think spirit of the rules/law would be useful, at least as a corollary along with enforce rules gently. When I said fourth administrators are ruthless, I didn't meant that is this rule is a warning to sysops. I meant administrators may have to be ruthless to enforce rules.(eventually someone will ) But it is really to keep out habitual and frequent vandalizers,trolls,etc. Veteran wikipedians become familiar with the rules and comply by habit. I'm very sure even all the supporters don't support anarchy and blatant abuse. It's just that, some people loose enthusiasm with too many rules and leave. --Jondel 01:33, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Added to my responce above: Eventually sysops and/or users will enforce rules.--Jondel 04:09, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Not policy?

This still shows 73% support above, and I'm not at all sure that there's consensus for the declaration that this is no longer policy. I think the policy could use clarity, certainly - perhaps with a note about the sorts of rules that are to be ignored, perhaps with a note about how, in the end, Misplaced Pages is run on common sense, not policy, and that if something doesn't seem to work, you should go ahead and try ignoring it to see what happens (With a note about how if you seem to be upsetting people, it may not have been as good an idea as you thought). I don't know. But I think it's clear that "not policy" does not describe this.

I don't believe the vote has been taken seriously for quite some time by anyone but the iconoclasts among us. Perhaps there should be a new vote. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 21:32, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps. Then again, I don't think the policy has been usefully cited in some time either. I think its current status as an old and rarely cited but stil present bit of policy is pretty much appropriate. To my knowledge, it hasn't even ever been employed as a defense in the arbcom, so I certainly don't see its harm. Snowspinner 21:35, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

Any poll in which Larry Sanger voted should be taken with a grain of salt due to its age. →Raul654 21:38, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

I'll admit that it's a pretty old poll. But I don't think the move to "not policy" is at all clear, or necessarily wise. Snowspinner 21:41, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

The intent of this policy could be worked into Misplaced Pages is not (an experiment in anarchy). Gazpacho 21:45, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Policy!

The poll is perennial, it looks like. People keep adding to it from time to time. I find it fascinating to hear (from this section) that people like Jimbo "wikipedia" Wales and <math>TAW</math> are considered iconoclasts in some circles. (Actually, come to think of it, that might be accurate. Down with the Britannica! O:-) )

In any case, this policy appears to have sufficient support, and should thus be treated with respect :-) Kim Bruning 10:48, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Rewrite

I took the liberty of rephrasing this to reflect some of the comments above, particularly from Mindspillage. As to the issue of how this should be classified, might I suggest Misplaced Pages:Ignore all categories? --Michael Snow 22:53, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Rules of the Chinese road

Anyone who has lived long in China and also in another country, such as US or Germany, has noticed some striking contrasts. Chinese traffic law is not that much different from American -- drive on the right side, stop for red lights, and so forth. Chinese traffic signs generally conform to the international standard. But the customs of Chinese drivers and others who share the road are very different.

A common conveyance is a three-wheeled motorcycle taxicab, about the size of deep freezer, with just enough room for two skinny-hipped passengers to sit behind the driver. They resemble Bangkok's tuk-tuks and so I call them, since Chinese themselves do not seem to be able to agree on a name.

Long accustomed to hard bargaining with tuk-tuk drivers and wild rides through packs of bicyclists, I still found room one day for some amazement when my driver accelerated on approach to a red traffic signal at a skewed intersection. The angle of the cross street meant that two acute corners were totally blind to drivers on either side; fortunately, perhaps, the cross street was one-way.

My driver gunned the motor right up to the moment we actually entered the intersection. The light was still red; heavy cross traffic was passing with the light; and meanwhile, an oncoming dusty black Stalinesque sedan was also violating his red light, bulling his way into the throng. We not only cut off bikes, motorbikes, peditrucks, pedestrians, and a bus all moving with the light; we made a left turn into the cross street, cutting off Uncle Joe.

Note that with three wheels, tuk-tuks do not corner like bikes; there is no leaning into the turn. I cannot say whether my American fast-food bred fat acted as ballast, but in any case, we merely slid, and did not roll. Straightened out again, my driver fully opened the throttle and we zoomed down the one-way cross street at about 70 Kph (45 Mph) -- the wrong way.

Not only did all the oncoming traffic move aside as we passed, but not a hand was raised, not a toot was heard; I did not even see anyone make eye contact. My driver ignored not only the law of man, not only the signage and local custom, not only the laws of physics; but, head high, ignored the very presence of any other soul on the street. And everyone else ignored us, too. I arrived at my destination cold sober (and I do not drink).

Chinese drivers simply do not have a concept of Right of Way. You may drive however you please; and by the same token, you must permit anyone else to do as he pleases.

Contrast a very late night in the city of Chicago, America, near the downtown Ohio-Ontario feeder to the Kennedy Expressway. The streets in that area are one-way and very wide -- I don't know, 5, 6, maybe 7 lanes wide; wider at 3 am, since nobody is parked at either curb. A fool (I assume), or merely some disoriented soul, makes an unwise turn and begins driving down Dearborn, the wrong way, in what would be the far right lane if traffic was permitted in that direction.

The street is so wide here, it is almost wider from side to side than the block from Ohio to Ontario is long; it is designed for Crush Hour traffic, a million office drones fighting for the relative safety of the suburbs before the lights go out in the City. There is next to no traffic now; most of the drunks are long gone.

Yet I see the only other driver on the street flick his headlights and swerve across 3 lanes to position himself directly in front of the malfeasant; the two of them brake with front bumpers a kiss apart, furiously honking, screaming obscenities at one another. I pass on; I cannot tell you now if firearms were drawn.

At first, it seems that the Chinese are smarter. They've been living in crowded cities for a long time, and they've learned that the best way to deal with slight offense is to ignore it. Americans, it seems, are arrogant fools -- creating problems where there are none, bickering over a point that will not make sense even to themselves in the morning.

But this does not take into account the accelerating effects of technology. Despite all the good will (or studied indifference) in the world, the tuk-tuk man and I might well never have arrived, and you would be spared this tale. When machines hurtle past one another at speed, there is simply not enough time for all parties to gradually, with no particular method, edge out of each other's way. Pedestrians completely ignore jostles from other pedestrians, and a shopping basket in the kidneys is not remarked upon. But even slight contact between two moving motor vehicles means a trip to the repair shop, and it takes little to render machines and their drivers permanently inoperable.

China's rate of traffic fatalities, per car, is 8 times that of US. As charming as the first picture is, and as ugly the second, the sad truth is that "just getting along" does not work -- not with modern technology on the street.

The reason American traffic fatalities are so much lower, despite road rage, cheap guns, and disrespect for one another and the law, is that Americans are very clear on the concept of Right of Way. It has little to do with vigorous law enforcement, although that is a factor. The main control on an American driver is the concerted attitude of every other driver, any one of whom may defend his Right of Way to the death. This customary Right of Way may be traced to written ordinance, honored in the breach as it is. It keeps everyone moving in roughly the same direction. When there is a dispute, say, at an intersection, even a malefactor is generally aware that he is running through a Stop sign; if push comes to shove, everyone may assume that he will probably back down.

In China, nobody ever backs down; not on the street. They avoid confrontation as much as possible, but when it is inevitable, there is no way to decide the matter, with or without loss of face, in the short time it takes to crash. I have watched Chinese truck drivers spend 20 minutes rubbing past one another in a narrow alley, leaving streaks of paint on the brickwork on both sides, rather than admit that one must back out and wait for the other. Cyclists crushed by buses are commonplace.

• This policy is a noble ideal, and may have been workable at one time, when WP was a smaller community; even now, it may give good advice to a timid newcomer if understood to be severely limited in scope. But now it is a ticking time bomb waiting to be used as a defense in every silly matter. It must be retired -- with honor, but retired. — Xiongtalk 01:32, 2005 Apr 6 (UTC)

I am speechless in awe. Misplaced Pages:Brilliant prose, Xiong. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 01:56, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Excellent essay — I'm not sure if I agree with your conclusion (that Misplaced Pages needs rules to ensure continued growth and preservation of article quality) but I will admit that rules are a critical mechanism for ensuring uniformity and preventing needless conflict. Deco 02:19, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

wonderful text, but I disagree. As Misplaced Pages and its policies grow and grow, this rule becomes essential as never before. I gave the german page a rewrite a while ago (de:Misplaced Pages:Ignoriere_alle_Regeln), it lacks the beautiful conciseness of the english version but states IMO more clearly what this rule is about: Misplaced Pages is a project to create collaboratevily an encyclopedia. Rules are just a mean to this end. As a newbie (and even as an old hand) you can't know all the rules which developped here over time, so just use your best judgement and do what you deem reasonable in order to achieve this goal. --Elian 02:25, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Something that might help with the impossibility of knowing all rules is to reduce the number of rules. Then there would be fewer rules for people to ignore, and fewer problems with people ignoring said rules (cf. instruction creep). Elian's rules from the German page are a good set; m:Foundation issues is another. For an actual proposal to have rule cuts (hey, tax cuts are always popular, right?), see Misplaced Pages:Wikirules proposal. While I'm skeptical that the mechanism proposed there is the right one, I understand the feeling behind it. --Michael Snow 06:04, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Concur with Elian and Michael. And Xiong, that was a wonderful essay; so much so that I hate to disagree with it. But Misplaced Pages is not a road. No one will get killed if someone doesn't know about yield signs and no passing zones, nor even if they haven't the faintest idea about traffic lights. You can still get where you're going, though if you appear to be terribly clueless some kind soul should (and will, probably, from what I've seen) come by to help you out so you don't keep crashing into oncoming traffic and spoiling everyone else's travels. I'd imagine even in China—though I've never been and know little about it—that those who deliberately disrupt traffic are not tolerated for long. Blatant abusers who will brandish "Ignore All Rules" as justification for their actions can be dealt with, because we as Wikipedians largely have the common sense to distinguish between good faith and bad.

The American response to the traffic incident is far worse. It values strict adherence to policy over basic civility, and an ugly one-upmanship on the part of the would-be cop over someone who was at the time hurting no one. Would-be Wikicops insisting on process over product already exhibit some of that same behavior, with the same effect: both parties' tempers flare and nothing productive is accomplished. On the road it is excusable: it's difficult to swing by later and talk to the traffic offender to say "hey, please don't do that, someone might get killed", and one cannot see whether it is someone with a history of disrupting traffic or someone who is just a little lost in an unfamiliar town. Here, it is a simple task. Just my pedestrian opinion, Mindspillage (spill yours?) 16:27, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

(As a side note, Misplaced Pages:Simplified Ruleset has also been proposed, as an alternative to the above-linked Wikirules proposal.) Mindspillage (spill yours?) 16:27, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Quick answer about real situation, not analogy: Chinese drivers tolerate everything, up to and including determined efforts by other drivers to run them off the road. You cannot imagine, until you have seen it, the Chinese capacity to absorb insult without return. Note that once a certain point is passed, reprisal is swift and deadly; but that point is far beyond Western credibility. I got on the plane shouting, "You can't let Them walk all over you like that!" — Xiongtalk 18:52, 2005 Apr 10 (UTC)

Right of Way explained

Very briefly: I tried to tell a story without introducing my own biases, so now others impute them to me, willy-nilly. I failed to draw what I thought were obvious conclusions. I am compelled to speak.

1. The American system of arbitrating Right-of-Way disputes does not work especially well.

A deranged teen Jolt junkie could program, in a week, a box that would control every automobile on the road, and the rate of crashes and fatalities overall be less than today. It's a relatively simple problem of physics and motion control; the only hairy part is predicting the presence of uncontrolled objects in the roadway. (Note I said "predicting", not "detecting". If the object is already there, it's not so hard to spot. Objects not in the vehicle's path, which may cross it in near future, are much more difficult.)

2. The Chinese system of arbitrating disputes worked very well for thousands of years, during which it was endlessly refined.

My mother, who traveled to China long before I, told and retold a shaggy dog story of her own, which spoke of an intercity bus barreling down a narrow dirt road between two rice paddies. She spotted another bus zooming toward an inevitable head-on collision; there was simply no shoulder at all, no room on the single dirt track for even two manure carts to pass one another. She squeezed her eyes shut and, being simultaneously an atheist and an Orthodox Jewess, prayed mightily to a god in whom she had no faith. Hearing no crash and feeling no jerk from this world into the next, she looked out the rear window to see the other bus rapidly disappearing in a cloud of dust. Chinese really do know how to avoid contention.

3. The Chinese system now fails miserably only within the modern, speeded-up environment of the congested city street, full of mixed vehicles and pedestrians, some of which are highly maneuverable automobiles, trucks, buses, and motorbikes. Available reaction time is cut to about 10% of what is available when pedestrians throng along motorless streets; and consequences escalate as the square of velocity of collision -- roughly 10,000% as dangerous for collisions at 10 times the speed of a walking man, and that's neglecting the increased mass of the colliding vehicles.

4. The relative success of the American system is not evident during the occasional pissing contests, which merely serve to underpin the concept of more or less absolute Right of Way. It is evident in the innumerable small conflicts which are passed over with hardly a thought, in which one party yields to the other, both parties secure in the knowledge that, given the relative situation, they are each confident of who has the Right of Way; the dominant party accelerates, the submissive party yields, and all is well.

The pissing contests are the price we pay to enforce the concept of Right of Way. They are true cases of honoring a standard in the breach. In the worst case, when a raging motorist tracks another down ten miles of freeway, draws a firearm, and gets on teevee, every single American who sees the evening nooz has the same thought: "One of those guys had the Right of Way, and the other guy stole it." Yes, all the viewers also have the same, rational, criticism: "I don't really care which guy was Right and they were both stoopid." But nobody watching thinks the shooting was about anything except who cut who off -- and to have that thought, one must implicitly accept the idea that one driver can cut another off, and that means to steal the Right of Way. The concept is upheld.

5. Right of Way is a formal rule of the road, a written law of man; but it is also a law of physics: whatever is in a spot first has the Right of Way, since no two bodies can occupy the same volume. It is also a social custom, and most drivers have never even glanced at the book they got from the DMV since they cribbed their written test. "Who has the Right of Way in this or that situation" is a lesson learned again and again, over the course of years behind the wheel, taught by one driver to another, and the one-finger salute is not really an insult, but teacher's red pen. Some drivers also require the heavier black marker of the bill from the body shop to underline specific instances of customary Right of Way, and John Law gets his licks in, too -- but the vast control of drivers' day-to-day actions is the vigilance of other drivers: peer pressure.

That said, it still doesn't work very well. Drivers are essentially all Anonymous Cowards -- flashy as they may be, as distinctive as their cars may seem, they enter each new conflict as anonymous as an egg. Positive peer pressure only goes so far; it is the naked threat of being rammed that negatively pressures drivers to conform.

6. The Wikipedian is like the Chinese driver, but with American blood.

He began, when WP was small and he knew everybody, and everybody knew him; by yielding gracefully, and indirectly, to others, with no thought for "who is Right". On receiving a minor insult, he just ignored it. Most times, even two parties with adverse intent simply went ahead as directly as possible, doing nothing obvious to avoid collision, but not provoking it, either. This worked very well.

Time went by, and the road became more congested. It is a feature of cyberspace, especially wikispace, that all users are almost everywhere almost all the time. There is no such thing as a quiet corner; every street is a main drag, with packs of moto-vandals roaring along, herds of nitro-fueled trolls shooting up passers-by, and stealthy orcs deliberately altering the signage and standing on busy corners (mis)directing traffic. Not only do some of these troublemakers deliberately flaunt the unwritten, unspoken convention to avoid trouble and escalation of trouble; there are also waves of immigrants who simply know nothing, too numerous to educate individually, or even to watch closely enough to identify and distinguish from the rest -- not to mention the tourists who stop to make a random edit or three.

Wikipedians are overwhelmingly white male American college dropout ex-computer pros, and we reacted in typical white male American college dropout ex-computer pro fashion -- by forgetting all the Cliff-Notes Asian philosophy (though continuing to shout it in most-un-Asian fashion); by running to the thumb-sucking security of resort to authority; by building castles of ever-more elaborate rules, regulations, procedures, tribunals, sanctions, rules, more rules, rules of order, points of procedure, policies, guidelines, more rules, jockeying for high ground, Orwellian sanitizing of history, doublethink (of course), groupthink, clerkthink, and naive pleas for peace, love, and good vibes; by descending to the level of the trolls and orcs, eventually joining their ranks; and finally all join in a hundred choruses of "Four legs good; two legs better!"

It's a good thing we aren't all white male American college dropout ex-computer pros; I suspect the 3 or 4 female Mexican high-school grad preschool teachers here are holding the entire project together by the skin of their teeth and when they finally get tired and go home to their friends and families, Devil Gates will come with his team of Men in Black (but no ties), kill it, cook it, freeze it, and laugh all the way to the bank. After the implosion, a hard core remains to sue Gates for his violation of GFDL. Guess what? He has more lawyers than you do.

7. The best outcome if we continue on this road is that real growth will slow; the membership will level off as the PO'd leave as fast as newbies come in; existing members will spend more and more time in factional conflict and endless refinement of procedural points and puffy debate (like this bit). There will be no new articles on Real topics, because (1) everyone is already busy attacking, defending, or congratulating each other on not fighting; (2) everyone is afraid to make edits that might invite a reprisal, but for the trolls begging for one; (3) everyone has exhausted his own personal stock of expertise anyway, and the hostile climate excludes serious new members -- although the door is still wide open to the Visigoths.

Fortunately, there will still be some numerical growth to point at, as hundreds of magical-weapon-foo-in-this-fantasy-universe pages will be copied in from user mans, and sooner or later, Somebody will propose that all Talk pages be added to article mainspace.

If there are any doubters here, I propose a simple metric. We are all proud of the number of mainspace articles, but let us compare number of edits to articles with number of edits to all other namespaces -- none of which do the Reader any direct good. Graph this ratio over time. I don't have the tools to do this, especially not stretching back to the beginning of the project -- but I guarantee Somebody does.

8. -- which is Chinese Good Luck -- All is not lost and the project is not doomed. I took one thing away from China, if nothing else: the amazing way in which they are able to stubbornly resist all change in an area, right up to the point where they change everything all at once.

We just need to dump all the rules, all the nasty little procedures, all the crutches for little minds, and return to a simple philosophy of common sense, basic intellectual honesty, and good faith efforts to accommodate one another and reach consensus, not simple majority, on matters which perplex us.

Of course, we also must return the size of the community to a point where once again, everybody knows everybody, and implicit reputation management serves well. And we must do that without imposing new, Draconian rules which exclude new members or chase existing ones away.

Finally, we must agree on a Misplaced Pages:Charter -- a simple document that anyone can grasp, with the absolute plainest statement of basic principles, and which is not subject to debate or revision under any conditions short of a Constitutional Convention.

Impossible? Well, of course. But then, what isn't? — Xiongtalk 18:52, 2005 Apr 10 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Charter? that's not too difficult:

• We are creating a free, neutral encyclopedia (and not anything else). Every action in wikipedia is subject to this goal.
• People who want to participate in this project should behave civilly and friendly (follow Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette and Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks)

of course, the devil is in the details ;-) --Elian 02:13, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

For some strange reason, I'm working on something close to what you're looking for here: Misplaced Pages:Simplified_Ruleset. Please come over and help out! Kim Bruning 12:47, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

from User talk:Jimbo Wales

Jimbo,

There has been further discussion of the "ignore all rules" rule that User:Lee Daniel Crocker created back somewhere around the dawn of time. Some years ago you had voiced support for that "rule" on its talk page. While the general idea of not getting bogged down in the minutae of policy is still a valid one, I believe that there is today much more consensus regarding, and reliance upon, policy. In this light, I'd like to encourage you to review your support for "Ignore all rules" and see whether it is still appropriate. Kindest regards, The Uninvited Co., Inc. 15:49, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps I should explain what it means to me. It does not mean that it is ok to make personal attacks. It does not mean that it is ok to be a POV pusher. And so on and so forth. What it really means is that, ideally, our rules should be formed in such a fashion that an ordinary helpful kind thoughtful person doesn't really even need to know the rules. You just get to work, do something fun, and nobody hassles you as long as you are being thoughtful and kind.

What we want to avoid is a situation in which people are blasted for petty offenses with rules that they could never have guessed at in the first place. Yes we have style standards for example, but if someone doesn't adhere, we just fix it and leave them a friendly note, rather than yelling at them for breaking a rule.--Jimbo Wales 16:36, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think that we should choose a more suitable title and try to rework this page in the spirit of Jimbo's comments. Misplaced Pages:Treat fellow editors as colleagues, for example (c.f. Collegiality). The Uninvited Co., Inc. 17:59, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nope, I kind of like "Ignore all rules", including the inherent paradox. There's no reason whatsoever why people should just follow rules and refuse to think. In fact, that's the point. :-) (ps. who would have thought that Jimbo was an iconoclast? ;-) ) Kim Bruning 18:53, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm fine with the title as is. But I've added a little more guidance to clue people in on when this "rule" doesn't apply. --Michael Snow 17:29, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Does Ignore All Rules include the 3RR? Does it include the CSD limits on admin deletion of pages? Does it include NPOV? does it include NPA? Does it include civility? I am serious here. This page was cited to me, within the past 24 hours, as a justification for a speedy delete on a page in no way coverd by WP:CSD. Mind you, the admin involved had reasons far beyond whim for what was done, but no WP policy to support the action, except this one. I think this page should be clearly declared NOT to be policy, and NOT to be used as a justification for violating core policies like the ones I just cited, or perhaps simply deprecated. DES 15:28, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it includes the 3RR. Renaming it "Use Common Sense" might be less problematic than the suggestion rules should be ignored without reason. Angela. 16:19, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

I see. How, in your view, does this interact with Misplaced Pages is not an anarchy? If "use common sense" trumps all rules here, then it seems to me that it is precisely an anarchy, albiet a benevolant one (mostly). The reason for rules is that we can't always agree on what is "common sense" -- in other words it isn't so very common. Some rules, IMO, ought to be strictly interpreted and not have any margin to be ignored, particualrly not unilarterally. DES 16:27, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

• The precise difference is this: if WP were an anarchy, then everybody would do what they would personally consider was in their own best interest. The point of IAR is that everybody should, regardless of policies or guidelines, do what they, according to their best experience, judgment and common sense, consider in the best interest of the wiki. The key is progress. You should not let a rule stand in the way of a good idea. Just make sure that your idea is a good one or someone will contest it. Radiant_>|< 17:27, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

www.anarchopedia.org

Just in case you didn't know, this exists.--Jondel 09:08, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Larry Sanger on the origins of this rule

Some questions have been raised about the origin of Misplaced Pages policies. The tale is interesting and instructive, and one of the main themes of this memoir. We began with no (or few) policies in particular and said that the community would determine--through a sort of vague consensus, based on its experience working together--what the policies would be. The very first entry on a "rules to consider" page was the "Ignore All Rules" rule (to wit: "If rules make you nervous and depressed, and not desirous of participating in the wiki, then ignore them entirely and go about your business"). This is a "rule" that, current Wikipedians might be surprised to learn, I personally proposed. The reason was that I thought we needed experience with how wikis should work, and even more importantly at that point we needed participants more than we needed rules. As the project grew and the requirements of its success became increasingly obvious, I became ambivalent about this particular "rule" and then rejected it altogether. As one participant later commented, "this rule is the essence of Misplaced Pages." That was certainly never my view; I always thought of the rule as being a temporary and humorous injunction to participants to add content rather than be distracted by (then) relatively inconsequential issues about how exactly articles should be formatted, etc. In a similar spirit, I proposed that contributors be bold in updating pages (the current version is much expanded, as it should be).

Larry Sanger http://features.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/18/164213&tid=95

nyenyec ☎ 20:24, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What?????

What is this page supposed to be?

just ignore it!

IAR or BAR?

Anyone think that maybe clarifiying that ignoring rules is diffrent from breaking them to prove a point/be an ass is in order?--Tznkai 00:15, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

The point of IAR is that you're supposed to use your brain. Spelling it out sort of moots that.  ;-) Kim Bruning 01:23, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Ignore all rules; serve all gangsters

• Rules are made because opinions differ as to what is and is not reasonable and sensible action. If we all agreed on all points, we would need no rules. We do not; thus we do need rules. It is the essence of a rule that it is obeyed and enforced; breach is punished.

Although rules in general are a requirement of any large group's social structure, any particular rule may not serve the common good. One definition of a good society is one in which efficient, effective mechanisms exist to modify or eliminate foolish rules or those which act against the interests of the community. When these mechanisms are lacking, frequently the only way to oppose evil rules is to violate them.

However, it is absurd to enshrine the principle of civil disobedience as a rule itself. This promotes, in the most literal sense, anarchy.

Ideally, anarchy is an orderly, utopian state in which Nietzschean Übermenschen go sensibly about their own business without interfering with the business of their neighboring supermen. All men are rational and wise; thus rules are superfluous.

In practice, anarchy is a chaotic mess which is unable to exist in pure form for any length of time unless overwhelming forces repeatedly destroy all possible power structures in embryo. Otherwise, chaos quickly gives way to gang rule, as the loudest, strongest, and most vicious bullies organize to impose their arbitrary will upon all others. These gangsters usually uphold the banner of some ideal, but their only true creed is that they shall remain in power.

If the gangsters are successful, they often grant themselves titles and, through sheer tenure, assume the mask of respectability and order. It is even possible that over time, gang rule evolves to something less arbitrary. More often, the gangsters must be entirely overthrown.

When bad men combine, good men must congregate. Many social organizations of a higher order than gang rule have been tried, offering various degrees of protection to the individual. All have rules, though these vary widely; all have leaders who are more or less accepted by those led; and all, without exception, have been opposed by the gangsters.

I suggest that the Wikipedian Community is in a state of crisis today. We have grown beyond the cozy confines of small group dynamics and have entered the world of large group politics; the Dunbar Number was passed a long time ago. We now find ourselves in a disorganized state, with sporadic and uncoordinated efforts to establish workable rules; while the loud, strong, and unprincipled members grab for power.

At such a pass, Ignore all rules appeals to the peaceful-minded and battle-weary, promising a completely unrealistic return to small-group Eden. But those who endorse this mirage merely prolong and intensify chaos and the victimization of those who would spend more time in construction than in domination.

I urge all editors to turn away from this false hope and work together to establish a solid, broadly-based, effective foundation for our Community and Project. — Xiong熊talk* 04:23, 2005 August 11 (UTC)

• • I'm confused about this "gang rule" imagery. Does it refer to the present administration, or to some perceived future administration? Factitious 07:18, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Our Community has no administration, in the sense of an executive organization with more or less transparent, more or less uncontested, more or less public and transparent rules and processes. Administration is a function of government; gang rule is an intermediate, perhaps inevitable stage between anarchy and other, stable forms of government. It is not itself a form of government, because no gang holds monopoly -- a prime requirement.

It's not imagery. Gangsters don't all drive pimp rides and sport gold chains. You're a gangster if you belong to a gang -- a small group that attempts to impose its will on the community at large. Hallmarks of gang rule are that it is contested, secretive, plastic, incompetent, and brutal. This is the current state, here and now.

The rule of those groups struggling to control our Community and Project is:

• Contested: There is no cabal. No single group is in control; various groups make cyberwar on one another. It may appear to the newcomer that some cabal is in control and all who oppose it are mere disorganized dissidents; but in fact many long-time Old Heads, with considerable power, find themselves on opposite sides of pitched battles.

• Secretive: Although various members have gained certain degrees of power, few disclose this openly. Worse, whatever rules and processes are in place are extremely difficult to identify. It is especially unclear to the newcomer which statements have the force of law and which are mere rude remarks. The entire power structure is opaque.

• Plastic: The rules change from day to day, even hour to hour. I have seen a rule changed by an editor especially to justify his next action. I speak of rule text itself -- interpretation is even more variable, with most who cite a given rule able to spin it in either direction as the situation favors.

• Incompetent: Gang rule is the opposite of efficient management. Gangsters force they way into positions of power; this is opposed to the principle that competent managers rise upon merit. Indeed, this is what we find here -- inefficient, often destructive process; failure to take appropriate action; growing backlogs of work of all kinds. Gang headquarters often look like pigsties; nobody wants to take out the trash.

• Brutal: More advanced forms of government are often ruthless, but heavy penalties are levied impersonally, as a matter of policy. Here we find malefactors subjected to a range of cruel and arbitrary torments, beginning with vicious personal attack thinly disguised as cold analysis. Penalties escalate from socialist struggle sessions to full-blown gauntlets of rhetorical beatings. Since use of force -- overt or covert -- and pandering to the mob are the only routes to power, the fastest way to the top ranks is to intimidate others and gather a circle of supporters who respect, fear, and idolize this sort of image. Thus, we see that members are often sanctioned for an offense not before lengthy public degradation.

Please note that we cannot look to Jimbo and WMF Board for community leadership. Our Wikipedian Community exists in cyberspace, in a universe created by machines that are owned, operated, and maintained by WMF. This puts Jimbo and the Board into the position of gods, not men.

Do not discount my last statement. Monotheists may find it very difficult to credit the fact of a pantheon of purely local gods, but we must remember that ours is a completely artificial world. If you met Jimmy Wales at a bar, you could poke him with a stick, just like any man. But within our world, he is a deity in fact, not merely in name; the designation is real, not a joke.

Gods often put on human form and walk among men; rarely, they may even lose their divinity (see Larry Sanger). Occasionally, men find themselves elevated to godhood, too. Polytheists have no trouble understanding this. And while the gods may sometimes lead men, or merely meddle; their concerns are on another plane from those of men, who must always lead themselves. — Xiong熊talk* 04:59, 2005 August 12 (UTC)

I'll say first of all that this discussion is, whether intended or not, quite amusing. I'll go on to say that I believe that Xiong's essential misinterpretation lies in the intent of the rule. Ignore all rules isn't about creating a mechanism for fighting unjust rules through "civil disobedience". In a way, it's not a rule at all, but a statement about the way in which we intend to enforce our other rules. Those who support Ignore all rules are claiming that the rules should be soft - that while we may expect contributors to follow them, and many do voluntarily, no harsh penalty or even preventative action will be dealt to those who choose not to. Thus, it is safe to ignore rules you don't know about or don't understand, because you will not be banned, intimidated, or yelled at.

What makes soft rules critical for Misplaced Pages is the idea that we are a community of volunteers. If every contributor were getting a paycheque from Wikimedia, we could damn well expect them to follow the rules or else. But when a volunteer is adding value to the encyclopedia, but just happens to be violating some minutia of the policies, it only takes away from our mission to kick them out, especially when we can easily clean up any damage they do. We may not be starving for contributors anymore, but we never want someone just starting out to leave because they feel intimidated. Perhaps a more detailed rephrasing might be, "If you're adding value, don't worry too much about the rules."

That said, I do believe that rules for administrators should be more strictly enforced, but the punishment for disobeying them should never be any worse than de-adminship. Administrators are given privileges in exchange for demonstrating responsibility with and adding value using those privileges. Deco 23:24, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't know how to untangle the semantic muddle above. Where to begin?

• Why would you find this discussion amusing? The rules that govern a community (or fail to do so) are essential to its character. When you say you are amused, I infer you do not take the matter -- or the community -- seriously. I am certain that this is a serious topic.

• I have misinterpreted nothing. Intent is treacherous ground when writing law. Later jurists will interpret the law written today; they may stretch it to suit their convenience or attempt to penetrate to the writers' intent; but the only assurance that the intent of the law is carried out is to express it clearly. "Ignore all rules" is a formal endorsement of anarchy.

• The intent you appear to desire to express is, "Ignore written rules and do as you please. When Someone tells you that you are doing wrong, don't do it." "Someone", of course, being a member who has bullied others into believing his word is law.

• To say that you do not intend to enforce rules is either, again, a formal endorsement of anarchy or pure bullshit. If it is not enforced, it is not a rule at all. There is obviously a range of enforcement strategies, from mild to harsh, consistent to inconsistent. But it is pure nonsense to suggest that all behavior shall be tolerated -- nonsense or anarchy.

• ...we never want someone just starting out to leave because they feel intimidated. Whose side are you on, then? Rules are not made to oppress or intimidate. They are made to set explicit limits on conduct. By the grand principle, That which is not forbidden is permitted, these limits also define areas of conduct that, since permitted, may not be censured.

Let me give a concrete example of this last. Let us say that a rule is established that forbids an editor from placing photos of dogs on his user page. No other rule speaks to the question of photos on user pages; thus the user is free to put a photo of a cat or chimp on his page. Since the forbidden conduct is clearly defined, so is the conduct permitted. Should another user come along and bully the first on the grounds that cats ought not be seen, the first user is protected and may demand sanctions be taken against the bully. The bully is without grounds.

If nothing is forbidden, then by the same token, nothing is truly permitted -- again, unless one entertains pure anarchy. Vague clouds of smoke preaching common sense must devolve into one thing only: A strong voice demanding that his judgement be respected.

I cannot think how it could ever be safe to ignore rules, or that this page provide any protection from harassment.

• If you're adding value, don't worry too much about the rules. If that is your intent, so state. I see a great chasm between this statement and "Ignore all rules".

But granting for the moment that I tolerate such sloppy interpretation, I assert it is foolish, naive, and unworkable. Who says if I added value today? You? Me? Gangster Number Eleven? How much worry is too much? Enough?

• Adminship has grown cancerously from a purely janitorial, administrative position, to the office of straw boss, a fat man who throws his weight around wherever he thinks it will do good -- a bully, a petty tyrant, and as one of a group, a gangster. It was not always thus and it can be no longer -- but that is what it is today. Some admins -- perhaps most -- may be men of good will, but in the absence of clearly written, unambiguous, consistently enforced rules, admins have far too much power. This power corrupts some; others merely wield it gleefully.

It is more or less fatuous to speak of sanctioning admins (or anyone else) when there are no rules in the first place -- when all rules are plastic, soft, open to wide interpretation. Given a good set of rules, then obviously any admin who violates them ought to be suspended or removed from office. Members of all levels who violate rules must be sanctioned, and the ultimate penalty is exclusion from the community.

• We are indeed a community of volunteers -- but we do not need to accept all who wander in the door. Perhaps the majority of new users should be frog-marched right back the way they came -- those that do not heed a polite request to leave quietly.

It is precisely because we are all volunteers that rules are essential -- for many reasons:

• Volunteer organizations have high turnover; new members must be screened and oriented to community norms quickly.

• Brutalized volunteers will often leave -- and it does not take much in some cases. One nasty remark may be quite sufficient. In a for-profit factory, paying high wages, it may be workable to appoint one man the boss of the Foo Section and tell him to run it any way he likes. Most workers will remain and endure Boss Foo. So long as his section is profitable, what does it matter whether the workers are happy?

An atmosphere of contention, disrespect, and arbitrary enforcement of vague, ambiguous, poorly-written principles does not merely increase turnover in some neutral fashion. It selects for troublemakers, malcontents, and disruptive elements. Peaceful, thoughtful, intelligent, educated men run away. (I believe it is to my discredit that I have returned from wikivacation; a more generally useful person would have gone on to better things.)

• As volunteers stream out of the revolving door into the larger world, they carry with them stories to tell; this affects our reputation at large. We should like that negative stories bear the stamp of personal and unreasonable grievance, not valid and justifiable complaint of arbitrary mistreatment.

Ignore all rules is not, in fact, proposed policy -- it is a naked statement of the current state of affairs. If it has any motion to it at all, it is an attempt to calcify and enshrine gang rule at the expense of orderly, congenial, efficient, and just government.

I stand opposed in the strongest terms. — Xiong熊talk* 02:17, 2005 August 13 (UTC)

I apologise if my attitude offended you. I guess I found your strong opinions regarding Wikipedian politics surprising when most people I interact with have been friendly and open, and also how seriously you take an unofficial rule that I always took as being a sort of joke. I hope we both agree that admin rules need stronger enforcement than "ordinary" rules, and also that there are times when a friendly warning is more appropriate than strict enforcement and punishment. It is true that the absolute terms in which this "rule" is currently stated certainly leaves too much room for interpretation, and I hope that eventually we'll find more precise language that everybody could agree on. Deco 04:37, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

If everyone took this kind of thing as a joke, it wouldn't be so poisonous. I'm pretty friendly and open in general, but the way I see it, if I don't have a strong opinion, why should I bother to make a wishy-washy statement? I don't ask you to slog through every comment I've ever made on talk, but if you did, you'd see I often admit doubt and error. But I work like hell to avoid both.

Admins must be held to a higher standard than others; and bureaucrats and developers to standards higher still. I agree that one-on-one, gentle comment is not only idealistically preferable to burn-and-stomp; it is more effective -- and even with what may appear to be a greater upfront investment of time and energy, more efficient.

But there is no way to "restate" anarchy in realistic, acceptable terms. Humans come in a disconcerting variety and it is utopian to hope for universal good judgement. Our rules should be few, fair, and flexible, to a point; but rules we must have, and obedience we must compel. — Xiong熊talk* 11:01, 2005 August 20 (UTC)

Problems with this

I have seen much abuse of this recently. The worst has been admins justifying blocks with it. As common sense is a misnomer, I will explain. The whole point of Misplaced Pages is that anyone can edit, and that admins are just regular users with a few tools. Thus anything that restricts either one user's editing or anything that cannot be reverted by anyone should be done carefully and have its basis in real consensus policy. It's not enough for the block to be "common sense" to the admin making the block.

Also, IAR states that one can ignore all rules... including IAR. But it's kind of hard to ignore a rule, even IAR, when one has been blocked for it. --SPUI (talk) 17:33, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Definitely. However, seeing as this is a WP policy, I don't think you can just add clauses to it, such as this one. Anyway, this is a common sense rule, and you have to use common sense when applying it. Obviously it doesn't mean just blocking someone because you feel like ignoring rules and because you can. I'm reverting the change, not because I don't think it's a totally valid point, but because I think it ought to be mentioned here for a little while first. --Blackcap | talk 17:57, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

It doen't have the {{policy}} tag. when and where did this get consensus to be a policy? I don't recognize it as one. DES 18:04, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure. I guess it's not policy as such, but my point was just that you can't make arbitrary changes to something that exists as some kind of guideline, policy, or whatever. --Blackcap | talk 18:40, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

• IMO IAR should not be used to ignore clearcut policy issues, particualrly process policy issues. it should also not allow the bypassing of basic policies like WP:NOR or WP:NPOV. In fact i think we would be better off if this page were deleted altogather, or clearly maked "not a policy", and not ofg any particular force. IMO IAR is of the most potnetial use in reinforcing WP:Bold in content editing decisions. I have never seen IAR cited excpet to justify what IMO were improper violations of policy. DES 18:01, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
• I propose a new varient of Godwin's law The user who first cites WP:IAR in a policy debate shall be judged to have lost the debate. as IMO and IME such citaion is always made by a party with very weak arguments otherwise. DES 18:01, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

See also: This recent thread on the mailing list about the valid of IAR and the way it is presented. Dragons flight 18:18, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Policy or essay?

Should IAR be policy or policy-like (policy, guideline, proposed, rejected) or essay-like (Category:Misplaced Pages essays)? If it weren't for the link to Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines, I'd have added it to the essay category long ago. --cesarb 18:12, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

• essay please. DES 18:34, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I think both "proposed" and "rejected" are inaccurate. I usually regard it as a guideline. I do believe the the spirit of it means that it doesn't matter what you call it... Mindspillage (spill yours?) 18:43, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

It should be in ]. --Michael Snow 20:51, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

• The spirit in which this was written is correct, in that people shouldn't get bogged down in trying to adhere to the letter of the law (to "...dot every I and cross every T", as it were). However, I think that the name "ignore all rules" and the current form of this page are both very, very wrong. (Speaking as a member of the arbitration committee:) There are some rules that if you ignore them, you will get yourself into a lot of trouble (like no personal attacks, NPOV, 'etc). There are some rules that there are few or no consequences of ignoring, except perhaps to irratate others a bit (like not signing your comments, or putting your FAC noms at the bottom instead of at the top, 'etc). This page could be properly renamed to "Don't let the small stuff get you down" and it would still have the same meaning. →Raul654 21:47, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Now that i could support. But no one ever cites IAR for that kind of stuff in my experiece (although they may use it to help make up their minds). They cite it for out of process deletion and undeltion of pages, and similer actions. I could cite examples, but need I? DES 21:50, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Agreed - Tεxτurε 21:51, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
  • How about moving it to Misplaced Pages:Use common sense? That seems much more appropriate, and accurate. It could also use a good rewording or caveat. --Blackcap | talk 22:05, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

• I would be careful about talking about "small stuff". As I noted on the mailing list recently, lots of admins apply IAR to deletions and speedily delete things not within the formal boundaries of the criteria for speedy deletion. This isn't because they're rogue admins, but because the criteria for speedy deletion don't well-represent what the community considers speedily deletable. We "ignore the rules" because they are badly written. And I think this is exactly what this policy is saying to do, and for good cause. Kelly Martin 22:16, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
  • IMO violating the precise strictures of WP:CSD knowingly is a very good definition of rogue admin and ought to be grounds for desysoping. DES
    • • You'd be desysoping a LOT of admins, then. Kelly Martin 02:42, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
    • Violating the precise wording of WP:CSD knowingly was done all the time in the past, when deleting the so-called "attack pages". I do not think anyone complained of that. (In fact, that bending of the rules was so accepted it's now CSD A6.) --cesarb 01:49, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

passing comments

I haven't been as active with WP in the past few weeks (mostly due to having to edit from an old iMac with IE 5 after spilling water on my laptop :( BTW -- did I mention how bad WP looks in IE 5 on an iMac?). Anyhow, mostly I've been limited to reverting vandalism on pages on y watchlist and haven't been able to follow many policy discussions lately.) IMO, the spirit (though not necessarily the precise phrasing or title) of this is indeed a fundamental part of the WIKI-ness of Misplaced Pages. I'd have no problem with renaming it to something like Misplaced Pages:Use common sense as someone suggested above. Or making it clear in the page that ignoring rules does not in any way mean that you will not be held accountable for your actions. Invoking this page does not absolve one of responsiblity and is not a "get out of jail free" card.

I think the essential point is that WP should ALWAYS welcome people who want to make good faith contributions to building an encyclopedia, but who may find all the voluminous (and often confusing) policy and guidelines daunting. I think this page was intended in that vein--that one doesn't need to pass a qualifying examination to be able to edit here. This page does not give one the "right" to do whatever one pleases--and it does not obviate the enforcement of Misplaced Pages rules in cases of continued and deliberate actions that disregard community consensus. The page should make that clear. older≠wiser 01:32, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Hear, hear. Though I have to admit I am greatly attached to the current title because of the obvious conclusion: "...including this one". Mindspillage (spill yours?) 02:48, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I share Mindspillage's sentiment (not least because that turn of phrase was my contribution to the page). Incidentally, Misplaced Pages:Common sense was already a redirect to the page, and I went ahead and made one at Misplaced Pages:Use common sense as well. I also changed the redirect's title to bold in the text to give it equal emphasis.

I also very much enjoy the minimalist nature of the page, and its resistance to instruction/categorization creep (in notable contrast to all of the rules it tells you to ignore). The simplicity is a substantial reason for its effectiveness, and should not be lost if tweaks are made. --Michael Snow 04:21, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I also like the title and the direct simplicity of the page. But if people are indeed using this page as an excuse to get away with actions that they know are contrary to accepted rules of the community, then perhaps some tweaking is in order. -- Bkonrad posting from work 12:05, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Name: "Use common sense" back to IAR

Thank you Phroziac for moving it back. Much better at IAR.

James F. (talk) 02:17, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Concur, for reasons detailed in various places above. :-) Mindspillage (spill yours?) 02:23, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Policy?

This is listed in WP:5P as one of the "five unchangeable pillars that define Misplaced Pages's character." Yet, there isn't a {{policy}} tag on the page (although there was for a little bit until it was removed). I definitely understand why some would oppose this policy, but as it's listed there and apparently Jimbo supports it (as evidenced by his vote at the top of this page, and yes, I do know that it's old), I think it ought to be considered as such, or at least be given a new vote. If that's not done, then it should be removed from or otherwise annotated at WP:5P because it's pretty confusing having a policy, which isn't policy, listed on WP:5P and be supported by WP's benevolent dictator. 71.139.97.219 00:54, 27 September 2005 (UTC) --Blackcap | talk 01:02, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry. I keep getting kicked out of my account for some reason. --Blackcap | talk 01:02, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, word from Jimbo is enough for me. I'm a-putting the policy tag up. --Blackcap | talk 04:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree it's policy. But, to my knowledge, it was not originally intended to be policy, and was just sort of an essay. It's not like saying it's not a policy will change anything though, IAR is just common sense. --Phroziac 05:42, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree completely, but it makes things clearer (in my mind) to have the tag up. I'm not trying to instigate some big change, just to make things obvious. It just seems kinda silly to have Jimbo support/create something, and not have it be recognized by the community. --Blackcap | talk 16:15, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

We're entitled to disagree with Jimbo, but I'd like to think that we'd only do so when we have a good reason. Kelly Martin 16:49, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Of course we're entitled to disagree with him, on everything and forever, if we want to. But that doesn't change his status as the grand dictator of this project who has the right (and ability) to do absolutely anything he wants. --Blackcap | talk 16:53, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

WP:IAR is for editing, not administrative action

As with WP:BOLD, there has been a good deal of "stretching" of this policy recently by a small number of administrators. These folks have referred to this policy in defense of administrative actions that have been challenged -- recently, particularly deletion and undeletion without regard for consensus. I find this highly troubling.

(Please note: I'm referring to a small handful of administrators, and indeed a small handful of cases. I'm not alleging massive corruption, or trying to get anyone desysopped, or the like. Rather, I'm trying to undercut what I see as a baseless and community-weakening misuse of this policy before it gets out of hand.)

Models of administration

There seem to be two disparate and incompatible ways that administration can be understood. We can safely call them the civil service and aristocratic models:

• In the civil service model, administrators are trusted with powers for specific and limited purposes. They are not assumed to be any better (or more right) than other editors. They are not permitted to use administrative access to get their way over other editors. Their access exists solely to serve duties discussed in policy, and use of it beyond these duties is not acceptable. Other editors are both permitted and expected to review the actions of administrators. Administrators are expected to act in support of consensus of other editors, not against it.
• In contrast, in the aristocratic model, administrators are granted powers under the belief that they are better and more deserving than other editors. Their access may be safely construed as being a reward and a higher social rank -- and rank hath its privileges. Because administrators are privileged over others, their actions are not subject to limitations of policy or consensus. As a matter of decorum for the project and respect for their peers, administrators are expected not to conflict harshly with each other. Non-administrators, however, are held not to be competent to review or judge administrative action.

Administrative IAR is aristocracy

Any reference to IAR in defense of administrative action is precisely an appeal to the aristocratic model of administration. To dismiss a criticism with "I was Ignoring All Rules" is to, in effect, hold that administrative access is its own justification, and may be used for whatever the administrator sees fit -- that administrative action is above any rules, rather than in service to consensus and policy.

(A side note: I hold that consensus and policy are largely equivalent. (The exception is core policy such as WP:NPOV.) Written policy pages exist to describe what editors have agreed upon. Votes are held to ascertain whether consensus exists. It is not the procedure of proposing and voting that creates policy -- rather, the procedure is a way of measuring whether consensus exists for an idea; if it exists, consensus has already created policy whether or not it has yet been measured.)

There is precious little defense for the aristocratic model to be found in Misplaced Pages policy. Established policy and practice make it clear that admins are not allowed to use their powers to lord it over other editors -- for instance, to roll back non-vandalism edits; to protect an article that they have been involved in conflict over; to speedily delete articles that do not meet the WP:CSD criteria; or to block users because they disagree with them.

Indeed, the basic Administrators policy makes it clear that "administrators do not have any special power over other users other than applying decisions made by all users." That is, the only proper use of administrative access is in service to consensus and policy. This is precisely the civil service model I've described above, and it leaves no room for "ignoring all rules".

What is IAR for then?

IAR is for editing. It's not so much about the sort of "rules" that we call policy, but rather to the ones we call guidelines -- the Manual of Style and so forth. Nobody expects IAR to apply to rules against vandalism, personal attacks, or legal threats. We would never accept a defense of "I was following IAR when I vandalized those articles," or "I was Ignoring All Rules when I called that editor a worthless craphead and threatened to kill his dog and to sue him for negligent crapheadedness." Someone who did that would still get blocked, possibly banned.

Likewise, IAR doesn't justify disrupting procedures like AfD, RfA, or RfAr. We wouldn't accept "I was Ignoring All Rules when I blanked that deletion vote," or "I was following IAR when I replaced that nomination for adminship with 'This editor is a terrible person!'," or "I was Ignoring All Rules when I posted a bunch of completely erroneous information to that arbitration request."

IAR means that editors, particularly new ones, should not need to familiarize themselves with a lot of rules and stylistic requirements before they start editing. A good-faith editor should be able to be bold and jump right in to improve articles. If they write well but don't follow Misplaced Pages style conventions, they won't be punished -- instead, someone else will come along and clean up their prose.

However, in contrast, we do expect administrators to familiarize themselves with a lot of rules and requirements -- that's the Administrators' reading list. ("Sysops are expected to have an intimate understanding of Misplaced Pages policy.") We don't have a "be bold" guideline for administrative action; WP:BOLD is Be bold in updating pages. And because administrative actions have profound effects on other people that editing generally doesn't, we don't want administrators to leave messes that other admins have to clean up.

IAR is a promise that our policies will not become so complicated or non-obvious that a good-faith editor will get themselves in nasty trouble for not knowing them. It means that "Love, and do what thou wilt" shall be a safe rule for editing. It means that ignorance of the law (plus good faith) is a defense for editors. But it stops somewhere -- and administrative action is well past that point. --FOo 19:56, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Responses

Good arguments, but I don't see such a clear borderline. The rule was formulated in 2002, for a very different Misplaced Pages. And for that time, you're right, it was about encouraging people to literally ignore the rules and get on editing.

Three years on, the wiki is encrusted with rules and processes, and someone who just practised 2002-brand IAR would soon find himself in trouble. Don't like the article? Blanking the page will get you a warning for vandalism, and continued actions like that will result in blocking.

Instead, a new justification has arisen. Sometimes our procedures get in the way. The criteria for speedy deletion don't quite match a case where commonsense says an article should be deleted. The administrator should, according to the rules, list the article on AfD. Instead he speedies. He's probably not consciously following IAR, but IAR provides a justification. Don't let the rules get in the way of doing something that will obviously benefit the wiki. --Tony Sidaway 14:50, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

That, is IMO abuse of IAR, and it ought to result in sanctions. Indeed the potential for people to claim to use IAR in the way Tony outlines is the main reason i oppose the very existance of IAR, and that any time someone cites IAR to justify administrative action, i am convinced, byt that citation alone, that the peerson probaly was unjustified and has a very poor case. I have come to see a wikipedia equivalent of Godwin's law here, with the citaion of IAR in an administrative context having the same rhetorical effect as an unjustified comparison to Hitler has in a political context. DES 15:02, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Tony, IAR "should never be used to justify making up and enforcing one's own set of rules." - Tεxτurε 15:33, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

• Mostly good points above. I propose the following addition: "if you Ignore All Rules to take any kind of action, that in no way absolves you from responsibility for that action". A select few people have been taking actions that were heavily disputed, and then basically hiding behind IAR. That is entirely improper. If think some action is a good idea, go ahead and do it. If it turns out to be controversial or disputed, you should consider whether in fact it was a good idea, and you should likely be more careful for repeated issues. Radiant_>|< 15:39, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I quite agree that IAR in no way absolves anyone from responsibility for their action. However, the trick with IAR is to use it only when what you do is so obviously right that it succeeds. Therefore when I see an RC patroller deleting a non-CSD speedy I don't say immediately "right, he's broken the rules, this was an out-of-process speedy and I should therefore undelete it under the terms of the undeletion policy." I ask myself: "was what this administrator did the right thing for Misplaced Pages?" The answer is a matter of judgement, and I'm happy to say that usually the answer I get is "yes, this article is worthless." The trick with IAR is to make the right decision, and only ever to use it for obvious cases where the rules break down.

For instance, let's look at a recent speedy:

• 13:31, 20 October 2005 Jni deleted "Fusionart design studio UK" (content before blanking was: 'Fusionart Design Studio.UK based website design firm, with low price plans and high quality bespoke design solutions.[http://www.fusionartdesignst...')

The content of the article deleted was this:

Fusionart Design Studio.

UK based website design firm, with low price plans and high quality bespoke design solutions.

Fusionart Design Studio UK

Let's go through the speedy criteria. Of the general criteria, none seem to apply. The article obviously is deletable, but it isn't "unsalvageably incoherent". It isn't a test page, it isn't vandalism and I trust that it isn't a recreation of a page deleted within process. It doesn't seem to be the work of a banned user, and the original author hadn't asked for it to be deleted.

It contains quite enough content to define the subject and enable expansion if that were desirable, it's written in English, it contains more than just a link, it isn't an attempt to correspond with the company, it hasn't been transwikied, it isn't an attack on the company. It isn't an article about a real person, and it isn't a blatant copyright infringement and in any case it was created in April, too long ago for the time limit of CSD A8.

So, it's obviously an advertisement in its current form, and so really it should be listed on AfD. It is possible, but not probable, that this would turn out to be, oh I don't know, say a company identified by a Parliamentary Subcommittee on Corruption as a front for the Mafia in Britain, which would make it encyclopedic.

But Jni deleted it anyway. Looking at the article, I don't see any good reason why he should not. The article was an obvious ad, and good riddance.

In speedying this article, Jni broke the rules, or rather, ignored them. He made an assessment and pressed the delete button. RC patrollers do this from time to time, indeed one could almost say that it's routine, and there's nothing much wrong with it unless they become prone to errors. We can look at the deletion log and undelete any major errors, so it's a reversible action. --Tony Sidaway 16:38, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for calling my attention to Fusionart design studio UK. You are correct, it diodn't seem to meet any of the speedy criteria. I have therefore nominated it for undeletion. I will leave a note for Jni informing him of this and asking him not to make such out-of-process deletions in future. DES 16:51, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Tony, I agree with you that the article in your example does not belong. Why not follow process and propose a change to CSD to allow deletion of clear adverts that do not establish notability? (Name of company, little content, website link) Gain a consensus. If you cannot gain a consensus to have this as part of policy then you are violating consensus by "following" IAR. In your own words this didn't succeed. Change policy so that such things are deleted on sight and don't need AfD voting first. (Short version: what's wrong with doing things the right way?) - Tεxτurε 16:57, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

My response to "why not follow process..." is "Why fetishize process over product?" Automatically listing a junk article on VFU is pretty close to WP:POINT, in my opinion. Are we here to exactly follow a rigid set of rules, or are we here to make an encyclopedia? Friday (talk) 17:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I understand your point and it is valid. However, wouldn't you love to not have to talk about adverts like this at all? Why not make it process to delete them? - Tεxτurε 17:13, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I won't do as Texture suggests because I don't believe that all ads should be speedied. This is a case for judgement call, not for giving admins carte blanche to delete all ads. As for "violating consensus by following IAR", if someone violates consensus when following IAR, then they end up with egg on their face, because the action gets reversed.

I don't think there's anything wrong with DES listing the article on VFU, or even unilaterally undeleting it under the admin exception, for it's a blatantly out-of-proces speedy. However I hope that DES actually thinks that Misplaced Pages would be better off without the article, otherwise in my opinion he's just clogging up VFU with an empty bureacratic maneuver. I could fairly easily give a hundred more examples of IAR involving speedies; watching speedies happens to be one of my open tasks.

And Friday, thanks for an excellent reformulation of IAR! "Why fetishize process over product? Are we here to exactly follow a rigid set of rules, or are we here to make an encyclopedia?" Alas, VFU/DR has become one forum that has raised process to the level of a sacrament. --Tony Sidaway 17:14, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your responses, Tony, Texture, Radiant, and DES.

I'd like specifically to respond to Tony's point regarding "obvious" speedy deletion. I agree that Jni did the right thing in deleting the advertisement in question, and that it would not be a good idea to undelete it. I'd suggest that the deletion was covered by our vandalism policy, which lists spam as the first type of vandalism. Removing vandalism is recommended for all users, and in this case a reasonable way to do so was to delete the advertisement entirely.

Nonetheless, for the sake of argument let's assume that there wasn't any justification in written policy for this deletion.

If nobody is prepared to argue that the advertisement is a worthwhile thing to have on Misplaced Pages, then there exists consensus to delete it. Note that DES's argument above doesn't claim that the advertisement is worthwhile, only that the deletion didn't follow the process described on the WP:CSD page. But if nobody really thinks that this material belongs on Misplaced Pages, then the stated CSD policy is incomplete; it should be amended to reflect the actual consensus.

(Consensus creates policy. If an action is agreeable to the consensus, then it's acceptable, even if it is not yet described by any stated policy. Policy pages are attempts to describe what's been agreed upon, so that it can be understood by new editors and others.)

There's one aspect of Tony's response which strikes me as troubling, though. When he says, "We can look at the deletion log and undelete any major errors, so it's a reversible action," he's referring to something that only administrators can do. By "we" he means "administrators", not "contributors". Deletion is reversible only by administrators, so it's especially important that administrators be confident that they are acting with consensus support when deleting.

The speedy deletion criteria are one attempt to describe consensus. But they can be incomplete; consensus can exist to delete things that don't quite fit. Deleting these things isn't a case of ignoring rules, but of following rules -- rules that simply haven't yet been written down in the policy pages. --FOo 17:24, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

IMO There is a resaon why WP:CSD is writen as it is, and why its rules ought to be strictly followed. The reson why advertisemet articles are not subject to speedy deletion (and this has been proposed in the past) is that in some cases a good NPOV article can be built out of them. Now there is an arguement that it is better to delete the ad and simply let anyone who finds the company worth writing about to do so from scratch. Such an argument is parallel to the argument for deleteing biography articles that fail to claim notability, even though they may turn out to be about notable people and could be converted to fully encyclopedic articles. But that arguemnt has not yet persuaded a community consensus. To speedy delete such ads now is to substitute one admin's judgement for the community consensus, indeed to violate the existing consensus. I thak it that the general meeaning of WP:CSD is "There is consensus that articles fitting these criteria, and only such articles, may be deleted without discussion. all other articles must be discussed. If Tony really wants to rely solely on individual judgement for sdeletion, let him propose a pure-wiki deletion system and try to get consensus for it. Or let him propose a new speedy criterion for articles that seem primarily ads -- I might support that one. Or let him propose "An admin may freely delete any article that seems clearly not to contribute to the encyclopedia". Ot whatever proposal he wants -- let him seek consensu for it. There is, as far as i am aware, no consensus for simply deleting articles felt by some admin to be "junk" but which do not fit any of the CSD. In nominating such improperly speedy deleted articles for undeletion, I feel that I am defendign the existign consensus on what may be deleted without discussion and what requires individual consensus. DES 17:27, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

As to whether the encyclopedia would be better off with the articel included I don't know. I don't think the person who deleted it knew either. Finding out is what AfD is for. But I do think the encyclopedia will be vastly better off if we can trust admins not to delete articels without a celar consensus, eithjer expressed in advance as part of the CSD, or individuallly in an AfD debate. There is, IMO a very good reason why the main protection for civil rights and liberties is "Due process". While the wiki is not a government nor a social experiment, process is still vital -- it helps ensure traspanency and trust, and thus allows people to cooperate on building content. Thus in my view adherence to process is far more important than any single piece of content, because failure to adhere to process will ultimately destroy the entire project, and every single violation damges the essential communityu trust. DES 17:27, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't think Fubar Obfusco and I are that far apart, really. What he sees as following some unwritten policy delineated by consensus, is actually a pretty close to a good formulation of IAR. I think we're talking about more-or-less the same thing in different language. I expect that Fubar Obfusco would accept that when someone gets bitten for not following the rules, it isn't the same as successfully accomplishing a task for Misplaced Pages. The rule-ignorer must carry the day, or withdraw immediately. An example of this is my undeletion related to Misplaced Pages:Votes_for_deletion/List_of_biomedical_terms. When I saw that my undeletion had no consensus, I withdrew. Was it an action against consensus? No, it was an analog of being bold. A gambit. You don't know what consensus will be until you try it. I got it wrong on that occasion. On a more recent one, Albert M. Wolters, I judged it right.

Now one thing I want to clear up. This is Fubar:

When he says, "We can look at the deletion log and undelete any major errors, so it's a reversible action," he's referring to something that only administrators can do. By "we" he means "administrators", not "contributors".

Absolutely not. Anyone, anyone at all, can watch the deletion log and have an item undeleted via the process in VFU. We have similar processes for deletion, blocking, and moves. These are all reversible actions, well within the reach of any non-admin, whether logged in or not. The wiki is not a place run by royalty. --Tony Sidaway 17:46, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Tony, do you think that each and every article that in some way falls under CSD is deleted? Do you think that each and every one should? Or do you feel that CSD is merely a set of "categories" or reasons for speedy deletion? As is the case for any article tagged for speedy delete, the admin has discretion over whether it should be deleted. What's wrong with formalizing that discretion? If it concerns you propose the rule as being specifically at admin discretion for adverts. Are you afraid that not enough people agree with you that admins should have such discretion? (I actually think the opposite - that people would welcome this kind of admin discretion.) - Tεxτurε 17:29, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I'll ignore your taunting. Obviously enough people do agree that admins have discretion, otherwise speedy deletion wouldn't work, and the wiki would be pretty much unusable.

I don't want to make ads speediable because I don't think ads should all be deleted; some contain useful information and just need to be cleaned up. I don't want to make ads speediable because I don't want to send admins the wrong message. I'd rather that admins speedying ads knew that someone like DES could come along and disagree with them, with a basis in policy to defend a potentially useful article from summary deletion. In other words, I oppose that speedy criterion because I don't want to give admins that much discretion--quite the opposite reason to the one you believed I had. It's preferable that most ads, at least items that are not obviously mere spam, should be decided on by consensus in AfD. --Tony Sidaway 17:52, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

"If "Most Ads" should be discussed on AfD before being deleged, why do you find the particular case you have cited acceptable as a speedy deletion, or more accurately an IAR deletion with no specific basis in policy? what make this one different, and where should the line be drawn? of couser if you can specify a clear line, a new speedy criterion could be devised using that line. If ads that "contain no useful information" are ok to delete, should that be a speedy criterion? And you haven't addressed what I see as the breakdown in trust resulting from people deeltign things with no particular consensus or policy to back them. You are (or at least Fubar is) defending informal consensus, the way people actually work -- as establishing a de-facto policy that can then be followed properly. But you reject those very same arguements on undeletion policy, and on the use of "notability" as a deletion criterion. This seems inconsistant to me. DES 18:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

DES makes a point. Somehow you think IAR is the admin's discretion but making that discretion valid is somehow wrong. That doesn't make sense. You seem to want to be able to do what only you think is right (meaning the admin) but you don't want them to have that authority in the first place. Makes no sense. - Tεxτurε 18:43, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Good questions. I think the answer is that discretion, by its nature, cannot be legislated. It's a judgement call. The law gives me the right to self defense, which means if someone attacks me, or I think they're attacking me, and I'm in fear of my life, I can use anything up to lethal force, depending on what is reasonable in the circumstances (which may be a split second, and the law takes that factor into account), to defend myself. The law doesn't say "Tony, if someone attacks you, you may kill them." I hope that the applicability of this distinction between discretion and right is plain. --Tony Sidaway 20:53, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

The issue of whether ads should be speedily deleted is not directly relevant here. Personally, I think we should do what's necessary to discourage blatant abuse of Misplaced Pages's good name. But that's a different issue.

I certainly am defending informal consensus, as DES notes. Consistently with this, I approve of the use of notability as a deletion criterion, when notability is suitably inclusively defined. Notability -- or relevance to a general encyclopedia -- is the broad overarching theme behind more formal deletion criteria such as vanity, spam, dicdef, the WP:MUSIC criteria, and so forth. As with DES's objection to speedy deletion outside of the explicit CSD criteria, I understand that

Regarding undeletion -- Tony has missed my point. The act of undeletion is only available to administrators. Ordinary editors may only petition for undeletion, which is up to an administrator to grant. That is why administrators should make sure they're confident they're acting in support of consensus before deleting: because if they're mistaken, they've broken something that not just anyone can fix.

Moreover, I'm discouraged to see that Tony is continuing the mistake of citing Be bold in updating pages as if it applied to administrative action. That guideline does not refer to administrative acts at all, and there has never to my knowledge been anything resembling consensus to extend it there. Recent attempts at "boldness" by administrators -- such as deleting VfD -- have met with solid opposition. The Administrators policy, which appears to enjoy widespread support, makes it pretty clear that administrative access is only to be used for pretty narrowly drawn purposes. I'm starting to think we need a new guideline, Misplaced Pages:Be timid when doing something not anyone can undo. --FOo 20:48, 20 October 2005 (UTC)