Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 03:32, 3 January 2009

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Yugoslavia C‑class Mid‑importance

Foibe massacres is within the scope of WikiProject Yugoslavia, a collaborative effort to improve the Misplaced Pages coverage of articles related to Yugoslavia and its nations. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.YugoslaviaWikipedia:WikiProject YugoslaviaTemplate:WikiProject YugoslaviaYugoslavia C This article has been rated as C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Italy Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Italy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Italy on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ItalyWikipedia:WikiProject ItalyTemplate:WikiProject ItalyItaly ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

New version discussion

DIREKTOR I have just read your sorry in my comment: I accept but your behaviour is very dubious. Your proposal is reasonable: let's none of us touch the article for now. This is list of my grievances with the current wording:

• IX or 9 Korpus included communist Italian combatants: how many were? In article no data
• foibe killings of Italian people in 1943 were made by communist Italian too, in article no data
• Estimates range from between 2,000 and 15,000: minimum of murdered was about 5.000 for important historians
• the Germans, the Italians and their Slavic collaborating allies (the Chetniks, the Ustaše and Domobranci): Chetniks were not allies but fought against strangers and communists under Tito's command
• in whole article is not a citation of Bleiburg massacre that was in connection with purge of foibe planned by Tito and communists
• in whole article is not a citation of Italian Communist Party under Togliatti's command that was ally of Tito.

I know that other related discussion is in RfA-Dalmatia. PIO, 17:55 15 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.33.91.201 (talk) 17:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok:

• The 9. Korpus (9th Corps) did not have Italian Partisans (that were part of the Partisan forces). The reference to the Italian "Giuseppe Garibaldi" Partisan Division was meant to show that the Partisans were not an anti-Italian movement.

• Sure, the deserters/defectors (after the capitualtion) were likely to behave violantly. I'm not particularly against this but it would be good if you had a source, do you?

• I agree. Most acclaimed Italian historians round the number up at 5000, that's true. We can state that, but estimates do range between 2,000 and 15,000 and it shouldn't be removed (even though it is unlikely the very lowest, and the very highest estimates are true, they stil exist don't they?).

• Chetniks were a collaborator movement. They were even at Bleiburg with their Ustaša allies. They recieved ammunition, supplies and weapons from the Italians (until 1943) and the Germans.

• What does the Bleiburg massacre have to do with the foibas? it is not interconnected in any way. These are two seperate and completely different war crimes. There is no evidence of a grand master plan by Tito that would include both the Bleiburg massacre and the foibe massacres. Here's the thing, it is impossible to prove this and it is not very likely, and without proof (sources) we cannot let it in Misplaced Pages.

• What was Togliatti's connection with the Yugolav front? Did his units participate in some way?

DIREKTOR 02:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

DIREKTOR I have sources for all points but are in Italian language and in books: you read my old comment, my sources crack you up? I know that you understand Italian language then is useful this link of it:Norma Cossetto: in this article you read Dopo l'8 settembre 1943 Norma Cossetto fu vittima dei partigiani jugoslavi e italiani dell'Istria.PIO, 16:12 17 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.33.88.231 (talk) 16:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Please answer by points (*), thats the only way to discuss an issue this complex.
While I respect Italians I am not prepeared to accept Italian or (ex-)Yugoslav sources as valid in this matter, here is why: the two often contradict, and they are more than often biased.

The Net is mostly English and it is a BIG place, so I relly doubt it will be too hard for you to find reliable sources. Do you realise that for every Italian source you find, I can find a Yugoslav source that contradicts it? I think it is best to keep away from all that... DIREKTOR 13:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

DIREKTOR is not simple to find reliable sources in English language and is important to wait opinions of other users. My question is: needs to remove all references in Italian language?PIO, 15:58 25 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.33.92.119 (talk) 15:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Origins of the foibe

The "Origins of the foibe" section is vague. The English translation is bad and the title "origins of the foibe" is very vague. Do you mean geologically, or otherwise? The current title can only be used if you are discussing them as geological features. --DIREKTOR 12:24, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I mean the first usage of foibe -for massacres. And that was Italian invention! Some better name??--Áñtò | Ãňţõ (talk) 20:59, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I wanted to say that usage of foibe(that were natural pits!!) in massacres was not invention of Yugoslav partisans. This source shows that foibe were used for that purpose muc time before ww2. I did not mean that Italian have been digging out them. --Áñtò | Ãňţõ (talk) 18:41, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

This paragraph has to be removed or corrected. The only citation given to prove that the "Foibe were used for massacres before World War II", is a quote from a propaganda speech of Giuseppe Cobolli Gigli. Is not possible to claim that "During Italian sovereignty there were many killings of Slavic population." just by a sentence pronounced by a fascist politician, also because there are no storic evidence of slavic massacre during fascism. Also you cannot say that the yugoslav partisan took the idea of using foibe from Cobolli Gigli. The burial of dead body inside the foibe was an usual thing during all the history. --Paul Gascoigne (talk) 21:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. We need to move forward on a historical rather than an emotional basis. So let's call for reliable sources here. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:40, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree that foibas were in history a "natural" way of getting rid the enemy. Cobolli's statement is sort of confession .He wrote it in a belief that he will be remembered. He was, but not on a planned way. --Aradic-es (talk) 17:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Politic clean?

The reason of the foibe wasn't pricipally for politic,but to terrorize the Italians and were a revenge because of the violence of the Fascism(people could't talk in public in Sloven or in Croat,the Sloven and Croat newspaper were closed,in the schooles no more croat or sloven and the "italianization" of the surnames).--Ujkaj4president (talk) 13:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Pizzi

Mr/Ms IP 151.48... (it keeps changing for some reason; apologies that I cannot address you accurately), cut out the aggressive edit summaries. This is not a war, or a competition. This is an encyclopedia. You ask us to take you seriously, but you behave in such a similar way to departed friends that it is hard to do so, sadly. I have absolutely no problem with properly sourced additions, such as the one you have made this evening. Good. Please keep these coming. I think you need to work on your English ("For Katia Pizzi...") is Italian, not English. Please correct this. "According to..." would be an appropriate change.
Now, in general terms, it appears that I have to speak to you sternly. You choose to hide behind the cloak of an everchanging IP address. This we must tolerate. Until I came to Misplaced Pages I had never heard of any encyclopedia that offered its editors anonymity. That's why I choose to edit under my real name. Regarding edits to this and any other controversial article, we have made huge progress in the last year or so in clearing out the worst of the POV pushers who seek to use Misplaced Pages as a vent for their nationalist frustrations. As as final remark - and I mean this in good faith - if you choose to go down the same hotheaded road as those that have left us, then you will find that your edits are restricted, like so many other people's, to Bruno's blog. So, in summary, hotheaded, aggressive = bad; sourced, helpful = good. È quello chiaro? AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:08, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
... mmm, and while we're talking, a word for your friends. You can copy-paste this to Bruno's blog, of which I am an avid reader... Bruno - I don't know where the schizophrenia comes from. What was with all the alternate accounts? Serious question. Your edits, irrespective of the account, were normally sourced and, while very POV, correct. If you'd stuck to one account, definitely you'd still be editing. GG - you were a hothead. If you'd kept your cool, and focussed on the articles, not the editors, maybe you'd still be around. Everyone got pissed off because of your behaviour. PIO - poor PIO. Cannon fodder. The infantry. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 22:11, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi Al. How are you? Please, do not stir ghosts: I'm your old Itlaian friend Luigi (do you remember?), and sorry for my English. Excuse me also for my IPs changing: I live in a small island and I have a very unstable connection. Mrs. Pizzi - among the Italian historians - is completely unknown. She is not a historian, but a young scholar of literature who works in London. Do you like her words: "(Italian) partisans and civilians, were imprisoned and subsequently thrown alive by Yugoslav partisans into various chasms"? Italian partisans thrown alive in the chasms by Yugoslavs! What a kind of bullshit! I know why you were interested in Katia Pizzi: she is the only source that you are able to find where someone talks about opponents of fascism thrown in foibe by the fascists. One thing that I have never read anywhere, and it is also illogical: the fascist regime had no interest in throwing his opponents in the foibe, indeed: in the 30th celebrated spectacular public processes (do you know the "Tribunale Speciale per la Sicurezza dello Stato"?) and then ordered to shooting the Slovenian patriots! Instead, if we're talking about the years of war, after the Italian armistice in effect in Istria commanded the Germans. Maybe you do not know that the bodies were pulled out of foibe in late 1943 by a group of Italian firefighters from Pola, commanded by a certain Harzarich. Well: this Harzarich left a report with detailed lists of names of people recovered and recognized: no names of partisan. So if there is a reasonable source, it's perfectly acceptable to me that "Fascist soldiers had also used 'foibe' as open-air cemeteries for opponents of the regime". Were are the realiable source? Take care of yourself.--151.48.19.161 (talk) 22:38, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Upon your words, I will happily remove all Pizzi-related text. In this, and other articles, we need to get to quality. All unsourced or poorly sourced statements have to go. This is an encyclopedia. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 22:46, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I re-wrote the phrase that was even before (no Pizzi-related text, of course), and that you have accidentally deleted, with a veifiably note. If you want, I have a complete list of the recovered and ricognized people from the foibe (only from the foibe!) in 1943/1945.--151.48.19.161 (talk) 23:40, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Hello Mr/Ms 151.48.19.161, nothing was accidentally deleted. I note that you have not "re-wrote" anything at all. You have restored previous text in line with your nationalist POV. And now, instead of being sourced from a University of London affiliated scholar, it is sourced from an Italian fireman. You are not serious. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 08:43, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Al, Al... you deleted the Pizzi's words and 'also other words, well sourced. Nothing new, for you: other good material for the Bruno's blog. The Italian fireman in historiography is a so-called primary source (do you knew this words before now?). Read the article here in Misplaced Pages: absolutely useful! So the Italian fireman is more and more important then mrs Pizzi. Do you understand? Anyway, if you don't like the Italian fireman, then I can write something about the people recovered and ricognized from the foibe in 1943/45 (Italians, Yugoslavs? You have so many doubts...), from the book of Raoul Pupo and Roberto Spazzali "Foibe". Of course, Pupo and Spazzali are both historians, and the first was also in the mixed commission (Ita/Slo). Do you know the mixed commission? Some days ago I talked with the Slovenian historian Nevenka Troha, and maybe also mrs Troha for you could be "not serious". Italian fireman or Pupo/Spazzali? As you prefer...--151.48.50.76 (talk) 10:13, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

NPOV tag

An excellent example of what an article shouldn't be. POV, original researches, selected sources. That's why I've added the tag. This article shall be totally rewritten.--Barba Nane (talk) 11:12, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Hello, Barba Nane. While I agree that the article needs some work, it is also highly controversial. I'd like to ask you to please discuss your proposed changes before implementing them. If you're here to promote a particular POV, rest assured that you will encounter problems no matter in which direction you shift the emphasis of the article. Can we agree on editing after consensus? Often enough non-discussed edits will simply be edit-warred over and no change will be brought to the article. --DIREKTOR 11:32, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, please note that many ex-Yugoslav and Italian sources are extremely biased on this matter, and support a pro-Yugoslav or pro-Italian point of view respectively. Because of this, the neutrality of Yugoslav and Italian sources should first be discussed and agreed-upon, this is why I emphasize discussion and consensus. However, if you have non-local sources (preferably in English), they will almost certainly be accepted by both sides. (Just trying to fill you in on the reason why this issue is so problematic.) I also hope you will keep an open mind and remain civil during discussions ("comment on content, not the contributor"). --DIREKTOR 11:48, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

I've used the Report of the mixed commission. That's enough.--Barba Nane (talk) 11:52, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid the commission is not a fully neutral source. The commission represents the Italian and Slovene view, but it does not represent the views of the Croatian side, on who's territory nearly all of the killings took place. Also, it is Croatian Partisans that are accused of the killings. The commission's findings are worthy of mention in the article by itself, but it is not an NPOV source because it basically ignores the Slavic point of view almost completely (Slovenes are Slavs, of course, but Croatia is ignored). A mixed Italian-Croatian commission would be a different matter, because Slovenes had little to do with the matter and with Istria as a region. (Also , the English name for "Venezia Giulia" is Julian March.) --DIREKTOR 11:59, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

The commission represents the position of the Italian government? Please, explain this point, if you can.--151.48.40.133 (talk) 12:12, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Can you explain also "it basically ignores the Slavic point of view almost completely". What are the Slovenians, from your point of view?--151.48.40.133 (talk) 12:14, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Wonderful your words: "Slovenes had little to do with the matter and with Istria as a region". Slovenes had little to do with the matter! And the Free Territory of Trieste? Boys, what a kind of incredible POV!--151.48.40.133 (talk) 12:17, 25 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.48.9.208 (talk)

@User:Direktor. I've heard about the story of Luigi's block in It-Wiki. User:Luigi28 is totally unrelated to PIO. This is not a claim of mine: there are indisputable evidences, i.e. some very accurate check users, made by some administrators. There is no discussion about this. If you want to be honest, ask to Administrator Moreschi to un-block Luigi28. Meanwhile respect his comments and try to answer him (if you have proper arguments).--Barba Nane (talk) 14:38, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

To be perfectly frank, Nane, I personally do not care. All blocked users incessantly repeat they were wrongfully banned... All I know is (1) that he knows quite a bit about the subject, (2) that he is incredibly pompous, stuck-up, and rude, (3) that he is not objective and is heavily POV, and (4) that he is community banned from editing on the English Misplaced Pages. He is not allowed to make edits or comments, and his edits should be ignored and removed. --DIREKTOR 23:13, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Barba Nane, if you wish to discuss other editors, it is entirely your choice. We could spend many happy hours here discussing your behaviour on itwiki, when you were, if my memory serves me correctly, sternly reprimanded for attempting to organise some kind of co-ordinated Italian nationalist assault on articles at enwiki. Meanwhile, I have reverted your edits as a) they are purely nationalist and non-encyclopedic and b) because the English in them leaves rather a lot to be desired. Cheers, AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 23:19, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I swear, Alasdair, I'm often amazed at your insight in itwiki affairs. I myself barely ever go there. "Co-ordinated Italian nationalist assault", LoL... what are they doing there!? :P

So Nane, here I am trying to start a proper discussion and all the while you had prior plans. Is the quickly-banned User:Puttana Persiana some kind of pal of yours? --DIREKTOR 23:26, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

DIREKTOR, You should head over to itwiki more often. Highly entertaining. They spend more time moaning about you and me than is probably healthy. Such grumblers. Like old men at a bar complaining about everything. If they're not at itwiki, they're over at Bruno's blog moaning and grumbling about how they've all been blocked or banned. Dearie me. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 23:35, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

CRAZY CRAZY!, DIREKTOR AND AlasdairGreen27 IS THE SAME PERSON

DIREKTOR ANS AlasdairGreen27 and others, are the same person, is a crazy little boy from Split, 19 years old, with the name IVAN RUMORA.

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• C-Class Yugoslavia articles
• Mid-importance Yugoslavia articles
• WikiProject Yugoslavia articles
• Unassessed Italy articles
• Unknown-importance Italy articles
• All WikiProject Italy pages