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Talkback at User_talk:Tohd8BohaithuGh1

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talkback

talkback

Copyediting request.

I feel slightly nervous about asking this, but figured it was worth a shot. Currently an article I've nominated, Revolt of the Comuneros, is at FAC with a few comments but not many. User:Karanacs issued a weak oppose based on prose concerns, but isn't up for going through the whole article himself; I asked him about the issue on his talk page, and he specifically recommended you as a good copyeditor. Would you be willing to take a shot at the article and see if there are any further problems that could be fixed?

Just to be clear, don't feel obliged at all; Misplaced Pages is a volunteer project, I can ask others, etc. That said, I'd certainly appreciate anything you can offer. SnowFire (talk) 17:25, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I will give it a try. I do not know anything about the subject matter, so feel free to change anything I do. Unintentionally, I may change the meaning. I am assuming you have addressed the specifics already brought up on the FAC, so that your concern is more general issues? Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 18:10, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for giving it a look. That said, if you feel you don't have the historical background, then I can certainly ask other people.

As for your initial comments... the bit about the lede I'm not sure I follow. I'm fairly certain that the lede *does* summarize the article pretty accurately and is the short blurb version you might see in a less in-depth work. Do you have any particular complaints about it? (The only one I can think of was that Karanacs wants the phrase "with the deaths of the other heirs" taken out, which I'm not sure of yet myself.) As for other information in the Origins... interesting comment, because I was worried that others might complain that the section was too large. The origins section is already pretty large - necessarily so, IMHO - and with the article already fairly long, I'd really be hesitant about adding in more background. Is there something that you thought should be included in particular? Or even a general area you felt lacks enough context? Would some kind of link to the history of Spain/Europe in the early 1500s help? Not sure what seems to be "missing" here. SnowFire (talk) 03:28, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'll describe to you an example of the problem I encountered. I read the lede, which was fine. Then I moved down to Origins. Immediately, I had to start referring to the lede in order to under stand what Origins was talking about.

• This is the first sentence in Origins. "Discontent had been brewing for years before the uprising." - What "discontent", where, and before what "uprising"? This section should stand on its own, and the reader should not have to refer back to the lede to understand this section. The lede "summarizes" the article; it does not supplement the article. Therefore, every section of the article must stand alone without the lede, and everything in the lede should be more fully explained in the article.
• Although I frequently copy edit articles with content unfamiliar to me, the article must address the "general reader". Usually, as I copyedit the article, I learn the subject matter also. This must be possible for the general reader, as an article cannot expect the reader to be familiar with the names, history, country etc. described in the article. This article, while very good and containing important content, is not accessible to someone like me, who would like to know the history the article describes, but gets too confused in trying to figure it out. This problem can often happen when editors are so familiar with the material that they lose perspective of how the article may read to someone who is not.
• As I said, if I weren't feeling so overwhelmingly tired and had sufficient time, I might be able to figure it out. Even tomorrow, I may have new life. I'm not meaning to be discouraging, as the article obviously contains important content and is a potential FA. I want to be informed about the events in the article. Perhaps tomorrow will be another day! Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 03:57, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Erm. Yes, the rest of the article should stand on its own, but I mostly disagree with your comment. The discontent is described right in the next paragraph; that was just the opening sentence. And the uprising is obviously the subject of the article, which if there's one thing that can be taken from the lede I think would be it. I've changed "uprising" to "Revolt of the Comuneros," but I really doubt that there would be confusion on that matter.

As for making articles accessible to random audiences, I can only wholeheartedly agree. Some things will inherently be "well, if you want to know more about this, click on the link," but I do want the article to flow well regardless of whether the person clicks for further information. In fact, I've been arguing just that on the FAC page on a few topics, since I think readers unfamiliar with a topic are aided by things like short sections or repeated wikilinks (since it's not obvious just who random Spanish name X was again). Same with moving some interesting and catchy material to captions. If you have any further comments about topics that seem unclear, definitely bring them up. SnowFire (talk) 21:33, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I think you would not be happy if I copy edited the article. You have a way you want the article, I can see from reading your reactions to comments at the FAC, which is fine. However, that is not a good atmosphere for a copy editor to enter, as I would not want to ask about every change I make. You would end up being unhappy with what I do, I fear! Good luck though! Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 02:06, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Slow response on my part (didn't notice you'd replied), but thanks for looking it over at all, and it's no problem if you don't want to copyedit it.

As for discussing matters... well, yes, that's what makes a better article though, right? When I worked with others on copyediting the article before even bringing it to FAC, it was a back and forth endeavaor - we'd chat about each section over IM and discuss what worked, what didn't, and which sections were phrased that way by accident and which ones were intentionally set up that way. I understand if you're not enthusiastic about it, but I hope this isn't too common - me disagreeing with a potential change doesn't mean I'm dead-set against it, as this is a wiki, after all. Just some random philosophical thoughts. SnowFire (talk) 04:24, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Memories are made of this

Arbcom mems - oh what a (favortism) year!

that meet up video

• - the ten-year old

• Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Che Guevara/archive1

• from Wehwalt

MDD

You just made changes here:

Although the relationship between sleep and depression is unclear, it appears to be particularly strong among those whose depressive episodes are not precipitated by any obvious factors. In such cases, patients may be unaffected by therapeutic intervention. ref: Harvnb|Barlow|2005| pp=227-28}} < --this is from old textbook-->

First question: What does the first sentence mean? I read it: Although the relationship between sleep and depression is unclear, appears to be particularly strong among those whose depressive episodes are not precipitated by any obvious factors. Does that make sense? To me, this particularly strong relationship seems undefined and meaningless.

2nd question: The ref appears to be from 2005, not 2002 as in edit summary.

3rd question, while I'm at it: I don't see what the is questioning. - Hordaland (talk) 04:27, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Answers

This is the original sentence in the article that I changed, that was referenced by the textbook:

The REM sleep stage, the one in which dreaming occurs, tends to be quick to arrive, and intense, in depressed people. Although the precise relationship between sleep and depression is unclear, it appears to be particularly strong among those whose depressive episodes are not precipitated by any obvious factors. In such cases, patients may be relatively unaffected by therapeutic intervention.

This original sentence has been in the article for months, but has always bothered me because it is vague and because it is referenced by an average-level psychiatric textbook. (WP:MEDRS says textbooks are not adequate references.) Therefore I tried to shorten the sentence and remove some of its vagueness. Coming after the specific researched-based information in the article, as that sentence does, referenced by recent research findings published in review articles, on the relationship of specific brain systems to depression, and to the effectiveness of antidepressant medications that impact the same brain systems, as also to research on the manipulation sleep cycles as well on the effectiveness of light therapy to treat certain types of depression, which also involve the same brain systems, this vague sentence seems particularly irrelevant and clumsy.

I apologize if I changed the sentence in a way you do not like. You, of course, may restore the original sentence quoted above.

As far as the year of publication, I am sorry. I must have mistyped. The is meant to request a more specific reference that could hopefully clarify the meaning of the sentence as well as provide a higher quality reference for it. Frankly, I think the sentence is misleading and possibly untrue for the purposes of this article. I would like to see some evidence for such a vague sentence.

Please change as you see fit. I have worked hard over the months to improve the quality of this article and the references, but I am getting tired and losing interest—especially as it takes so long to load! Cheers, —Mattisse (Talk) 05:05, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

It was not my intention to criticize your edit; sorry if it looked like it! I agree entirely that the statement in the middle sentence is vague. In fact, so vague as to be meaningless, as I suggested above.

I wonder if the sentence about REM is important to the article ("tends to be quick to arrive, and intense..."). If not, I think the whole paragraph in your blockquote above could just be deleted. I'll suggest that on the talk page and see if anyone objects. - Hordaland (talk) 06:09, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

REM it is not mentioned elsewhere in the article. I don't remember REM info "tends to be quick to arrive, and intense...") as particularly of note. It is not routinely asked about in a clinical assessment, for example, or mental status exam. Without something more substantial than that vague mention, I don't see the relevance of throwing it in the article without some follow up. Obviously sleep in general is important, and that is mentioned and referenced. I recall that some types of antidepressant drugs increase REM sleep, but there is no reference in the article, and that is considered a "side effect". Personally, I don't think the statement adds any solid info and its removal would not lessen the relevance of any information in the article. Cheers, —Mattisse (Talk) 06:25, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

What?

I'm confused. I was talking about the 15 opposes I got based on my using the term "for shit" on my talk page. What did that have to do with you? Maybe my brain is still fogged, but I'm not clear why you are offended. You have been a great help and I have no wish whatsoever to offend you. Please respond either here or on my talk page.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:35, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

from Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Wehwalt: "I was willing to overlook the number of times he has questioned my good faith or honesty, but indirectly soliciting 3RR backup compels me to oppose at this time." (Maybe I am too sensitive!) Cheers, —Mattisse (Talk) 17:49, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Since no one took up Sandy's cause and AuburnPilot strongly defended me and you, I saw no need to say anything. I was told that anything that the candidate says during the RfA process is potential fodder for the opposes. That is why I was very choosy in replying to the opposes. I had no idea you were offended by my not replying, and I thought I made it clear after the RfA closed that I valued, and value your contributions and, well, wikifriendship greatly. Frankly, I was about to ask you for your help, I'm planning on bringing Rudolf Wolters at the least up to GA standard. I'm not sure the material is there for FA, but at least to GA. What is there now is garbage (I've started some work).--Wehwalt (talk) 17:54, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I certainly will be willing to help you. I was being oversensitive. Sorry! —Mattisse (Talk) 18:03, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad. Thank you. I am sorry if I did not catch on to the fact that you were offended, RfA is a difficult process. Sandy went so over the top on her drama that I think she scared off potential opposes who just didn't want to be associated with the drama. Anyway, on Wolters. Next few days, I'm planning to bring in material from the Speer bios. I could use online sources, photographs, anything like that, as well as copyediting and advice. Basically all I intend to keep from what is there now is his vital statistics and bibliography. Sereny is probably the best source for Wolters, I will be drawing heavily from her book on Speer.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:15, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

The article is taking shape well. One problem is that it is hard to make avoid making it another article about Speer.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:28, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I am unclear why the relationship between Wolters and Speer became embittered. I am gathering, from what you have written, that it was a one way street, and that Speer held something against Wolters. —Mattisse (Talk) 20:59, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

From the way Speer's biographers present it, Speer took Wolters for granted and failed to show very much gratitude for all Wolters had done for him. In addition, they disagreed over Speer's taking responsibility; Wolters felt that Speer repainted the past to make the points he wanted to make. There were other things as well. I'll detail them all when I get to that part of the story which should be tomorrow. I've ordered a copy of the Schmidt book because he actually interviewed Wolters directly.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:54, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it will be about Wolters' view of Speer, if that is Wolters primary reason for being of interest. (Was he much of an architect?) Perhaps some exploration of how Wolters managed over the years to remain loyal and only at the end became bitter. Although his disillusionment over Speer's failure to take responsibility is a reason, somehow to me there must be more. You said he continued to support him after the trials. And he had to have known Speer as a person enough not to be that surprised at Speer's behavior. How did he go along with what was happening all those years himself, I wonder? (Regarding the RFA, I wasn't offended that you did not respond, as I agree that not responding is the best policy in those situations. I was just very surprised at the change against me, and could not understand how what I did could be construed that way. So for a while I was confused and fearful of making posts that may unintentionally harm someone. It was a little scary that someone was monitoring my posts to such an extent that such a post would be used to insinuate I was doing something unethical.) —Mattisse (Talk) 23:31, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually, he was more concerned that Speer was slanting history the other way. I've added a couple of paragraphs to the post release section. Sandy almost certainly had my talk page on watchlist, or else when she found out I was going for Admin, she went through my talk page with a fine tooth comb looking for dirt. We had a lot of disputes at TFA/R and at Natalee Holloway. She doesn't like me, though she is sucking up to me now, just in case, I think (I am not ambitious and wasn't even interested in being an admin, frankly, I'm an article writer). She wasn't monitoring you, she just leapt on it with glad cries, and as I've pointed out, went way over the top. There are a lot of vultures hovering just in case SHE ever decides to run for admin, it would be a bloodbath!--Wehwalt (talk) 23:35, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Slanting history the "other" way? You mean minimizing what happened? If that is the case, that is indeed interesting. It would make for complicated historical dynamic. (I would be very much against Sandy running for admin, as I perceive her as too biased, protecting those who are "hers" and inexplicably trashing others who, I guess, have not toed the line.) —Mattisse (Talk) 23:45, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, the latest quote I put in there, he's mad at Speer for demonizing Hitler.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:49, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

All the basic info is in there. It needs a lot of polish to be easy on the reader's eye and mind, but it is basically complete. My mind hurts.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:03, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

OK. Will look at tomorrow as too tired tonight. —Mattisse (Talk) 02:12, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Pallid sturgeon

Thank you for reviewing the article I started.--MONGO 16:03, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

This is not good

Mattisse... edits like this one just are not good. Not what we expect from seasoned contributors. Way too blatantly assuming bad faith and needling a fellow contributor. I've not followed your contributions closely but I'm not liking what I've seen... as I commented at Che, your approach may not be suitable. At all. I think you need to revisit it. ++Lar: t/c 03:10, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry. I am just way too tired of this editor following me around and accusing me of underhanded dealings as she did in the RFC of User:Wehwalt and other issues. I am quite aware she has a network of email alerts and other "alerts" of those who "step in". I guess you are one of those. She has nothing currently to do with Che Guevara so it is reasonable to expect her to just stay away and stop refactoring my comments so that they are out of context and rendered meaningless to the other editors of the article. Is this really a "big deal" in the scale of things on Misplaced Pages? Hard to believe. But if it is, I am on the edge of quitting anyway, as this sort of thing is beyond worth hassling over. As the person in question is so "busy" that she registers numerous complaints about her work load, I think it is reasonable to ask that she just leave me alone. Please let me know if this issue is so important that it warrants a message to me from you. If it is, then I am out of here. With all due respect, —Mattisse (Talk) 03:23, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I am pretty busy myself. So you can assume that if I left you a message, I felt "this issue is so important that it warrants a message to" "from" ... As far as "following around and accusing of underhanded dealings" goes, I think you've the wrong end of the stick. My suggestion is that you stop needling people and stop assuming bad faith. ++Lar: t/c 03:51, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I am perfectly willing to do so if the person in question will do the same. Frankly, the fact that you would even post me about this reflects poorly on Misplaced Pages in general and your priorities in particular, in my opinion. May I inquire how this "huge issue" came to your attention to begin with? Is this a major issue, really? I find it hard to believe that both of you do not have more important things to do. This communication from you drastically reduces my already plummeting view of Misplaced Pages. —Mattisse (Talk) 03:56, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I think focusing on how to improve your own interactions with others, rather than worrying about others, or about Misplaced Pages in general, or how I choose to spend my time, or what brings matters to my attention, would be the best use of your time. ++Lar: t/c 04:04, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Is this conversation really productive? (butting in since my name got dropped). I think Matisse had every right to be offended by what Sandy said during my RfA; she basically accused both of us of conspiring to violate 3RR. That kind of thing affects relationships here, and his sarcasm was mild compared with what was said to Sandy during that RfA by another editor. And I don't see anything unjustified in what Matisse said; Sandy did not in fact oppose on the third failed FAC. If Sandy is offended, she should speak for herself; if she does not care to, it is not for another editor to be indignant on her behalf.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:12, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Wehwalt. Everything you say is right on. These "defenders" sprout out of the woodwork, as if they are in a queue. Since I "refactored" the page (the "cause" of this latest sprouting from the woodwork) back to the way it was, before the person whom Lar feels compelled to defend, interfered, the dialogue has become constructive. I believe he is misled. —Mattisse (Talk) 04:18, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Reminds me of this similar incident during the RFA. Never did figure out how that got pulled out of a 240K or so archive number four on the Holloway article. Unless . . . --Wehwalt (talk) 04:25, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I have only this to say, which is that I am in complete agreement with Lar, and I really do believe that you. Mattisse, need to reasess your attitude towards this project. I will fully admit that I myself am not perfect, with luck and a fair wind will never be perfect, and I am no role model. But it's a mistake to believe that long-standing and (I firmly believe) good faith editors like SandyG aren't worn down by the kinds of cheap pot shots that have apparently become your trade mark. I have had disagreements with many editors in the past, including SandyG and probably even Lar, but I hope that I have never carried them on into grudge matches, and I hope that I never will. --Malleus Fatuorum 04:39, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

You have lost all credibility with me and need not post your opinion on my page, except to provide evidence for my "sprouting out of the woodwork" theory. (You have sprouted!) All you do is reinforce my distaste for the nature of your unenviable ways, which is the underbelly of Misplaced Pages: protect those you must to survive. You have lost me; your ways are not something to admire. —Mattisse (Talk) 04:48, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

You don't know me, this isn't real life. Time to lighten up a bit? Just a little bit? --Malleus Fatuorum 05:23, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Mattisse, just to leave a note (because I needed to see the current hubbub) - I don't think Lar is part of Sandy's sekret force. He doesn't know the handshake. Or, I could just be on the outs. I do have a mouth that chases people away. Perhaps that is it and thats how I never met Lar at one of the meetings. :) I know I don't have any credibility with you, so you can take this as a silent confirmation of Lar really being a member. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 05:27, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

They change the handshake at random intervals. And now they require a "strong" handshake, at least ten digits, with at least one wearing a Secret Decoder Ring.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:30, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Can you believe this?? All over a stupid, trivial post, having nothing to do with anything relevant that apparently upset the Person. They all have ESP? Where did Lar come from? Why is he posting on my page over an incredibly stupid incident? I know about the "network" as this is a very frequent happening on my page. Believe it or not, I am so IMPORTANT that legends of editors watch my page, not only my page but by contributions! Can you believe that? Well, what can I say? That is how important I am. (Unless, of course, there is some kind of "other" network employed by the Queen Bee to alert the sabotages of all that is not 100% positive of the Big Wig, like the handshake at random intervals.) Ottava Rima, you one of those? Do you watch my page and my contributions assiduously, or do you have ESP or what? Why are you posting on my page? What is the secret "alert" system? Cheers, —Mattisse (Talk) 05:44, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm concerned about the pattern of behaviour not just the particular edit. That edit is one example of many. Again, focus on your own behaviour instead of attacking all and sundry unless they 100% agree with you, and instead of seeking conspiracies and the like. ++Lar: t/c 14:49, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

The egocentrism of the above made me giggle. <3 I actually came to post about something else but I got side tracked and decided to be silly. I only have one talk page on my watch list and it is one that always makes me cringe when the orange bar lights up. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 06:06, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Then go away. Surely you are capable of that. Nothing compels you to watch my page. (And you seem deficient in recognizing irony also, perhaps a common quality of the Big Wiggers.) Not a very appealing bunch of secret hand shakers, are you Big Wig supporters. I am lucky in not having to suck up. —Mattisse (Talk) 06:21, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Why would I go when I just said that I enjoyed it? And when have I ever sucked up to anyone? Haha. I should probably start. It would do me good. I'm just as confused as to why Lar stepped in also. He seems to come appear at the most peculiar moments. At least when the devil would do that, he would offer interesting gifts. :P Ottava Rima (talk) 16:35, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Note - once they fix the DYK bot and plow through with accepting any PD or translated material, they will run bots to put that on wiki, have a bot auto DYK nom it, then have another bot to run it through. Who needs editors anymore when we just hae robots. :) DYK mentalities have become strange as of late. Its as if no one cares about how it was. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:50, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

#

Did You Know I was trying to fix up the numbering bollocks occasioned by my # omission when I noticed you'd replied and sorted it at WP:Requests for adminship/Suntag ?! Ta :) All the best Plutonium27 (talk) 20:17, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, apparently the # is added with : after it; that is the key to correct display. Periodically I forget and have to learn it again! Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 20:24, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Sand list

Mattisse, have you considered also compiling stats on how many of those articles Suntag has actually created or expanded himself? Glancing through, a lot of them appear to be just things he's nominated that others have written. either way (talk) 04:31, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Hey, it took me hours just to compile what I did. If you look at the articles they are mostly trivial. In fact, one was a spin off, in the form of a list, of one I wrote myself! The question is, would he have done any of that if he had not received the trinkets and medals! The article of mine that he received a DYK for was a part of an FAC that we had to ditch. I doubt that the fact it received a DYK was of any benefit to it. In fact, I wonder if the hook was even accurate. —Mattisse (Talk) 04:39, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I looked at it. Nothing has been added to it as a result of being a DYK. So much for editors flooding to an article to improve it. Very boring hook, that would be meaningless to anyone not already knowing the subject matter. I think DYK is a crock and I am completely disillusioned. —Mattisse (Talk) 04:44, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

A proposition for ya!

Matisse: I've noticed you around in some of the "back-room" areas of the wikis, particularly DYK and RfA. I've done the same thing before: for awhile I spent much time tracking down copyright violations at DYK/GA. And you know what? It made me miserable; I became suspicious and generally lost enthusiasm for the project. I needed to get back to doing what I was here to do in the first place! And, that's why I am approaching you.

I recall that about 5 months ago, you performed an excellent GA review of Marquis de Lafayette (seriously, I'd meant to thank you for it; but, too much time went by). Well, I and others are still working on that article. We have some NPOV problems dealing with the French Revolution (much harder to write than I had thought!), and we have added lots of text that probably needs polished. Regardless, I thought I would extend an invitation to you; we've got a lot of extra work, from your excellent GA review I think you could help; and it'll give you an excuse to leave the "back-room" for a bit. What do you think? Lazulilasher (talk) 16:54, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I can take a look at the article. Thanks for asking. I can polish text but issues of POV/NPOV may be beyond me. You are right that where I have been hanging out is bad for the soul! And I feel "miserable"! Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 20:41, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

That's great! Take your time; I've slowly been able to gather some momentum back, so it should be fun. I've been in your spot, where I've felt disillusioned. What helped was when I remembered that there are tons of editors who truly contribute for the sake of it. They merely want to build a better encyclopedia. The rest are merely a small subset; a vocal subset, but a small subset. I realized that the best thing for me was to just do what I like to do. Not sure if it'll help, but it worked for me. Lazulilasher (talk) 16:04, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Happy New Year

Hope 2009 is a great year for you!--MONGO 15:26, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Do not modify the comments of others

Concerning your edit here, please refrain from altering the comments of other editors. When I said that I helped Sano reach GA, I really meant it. Now assume good faith from here one. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 17:11, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry! Since I was the one who help Sagara Sanosuke reach Ga, (see number of edits in history and it was late at night, I wrongly altered it. I apologize. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 17:27, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Mongolian language

Hi Mattisse, nice to see you again. You just altered the head section of Mongolian language, as I supposed someone would do sooner or later. I've taken up your first edit, tried to make immediate use of the second and deleted the rest, but tried to provide a clarifying comment in a footnote. If you have still problems in understanding these lines, maybe you can set me on the problematic points so that I may try to fix it. Regards, G Purevdorj (talk) 00:45, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Lockdown FA

Yeah, thanks for the copyedit and the support. It was a nice surprise to get on and see it pass. Well that is 1 done and 11 to go.--WillC 00:29, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

It's a big achievement for that kind of article. Huge! Are they all going to be TNA wrestling articles? —Mattisse (Talk) 00:37, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Here is my plan: 1.--WillC 01:22, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Hopefully you gained some experience, and HOPEFULLY you will figure out a way to eliminate some of the detail (since that seemed to be the major complaint). I will help to the degree that I can. —Mattisse (Talk) 01:29, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Don't worry, I can do it. Lockdown has been months in the making and is no where near as good as I can write. I just got tired of it and didn't want to change anything that was already good. Future FAs will be very different. What do you think?--WillC 01:50, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

It's good to have goals, as long as it doesn't drag you down. You did a great job. The strength of you reference citations really made them take you seriously. I can help as I did before, but you know that I am not knowledgeable about the subject matter, although I have copy edited other wrestling articles, like for User:GaryColemanFan. (He is good at explaining plots and back stories.) Happy 2009 - lets make it a good year! —Mattisse (Talk) 01:59, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Let me just tell you now, I'm not asking for your help or really need it. I don't know where you are getting that from. Sorry if I sound like an ass, I'm trying to say it nicely. I'm just sharing my ideas. I want to say thanks again for the copyedit on Lockdown and for supporting the article in its FAC. If I need help again you'll be the first I ask. I tend to like to work alone, mainly because I'm hard to work with on some areas.--WillC 02:11, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I know. Everything I do is completely voluntary at Misplaced Pages. I changed some things on Slammiversary (2008) - hope you don't mind. Just that I have become familiar with certain requirements for GA and FAC as I do a lot of reviews and copy editing - no big deal. —Mattisse (Talk) 02:16, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I don't mind. I need to clean up that article anyway. I did it in a rush back in October to get three on GAN. Two of them have passed already: No Surrender (2008) and Hard Justice (2008). Slammiversary is the only one left and I have to change alot of things in it when someone undertakes the GA review, which I hope is soon since it is the oldest article on GAN right now. Strangely most of mine become the oldest. Lockdown was, Sacrifice was, Hard Justice was, and now Slammiversary. It is weird.--WillC 02:24, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

It's because the articles are long, and wrestling articles are hard to follow for those not knowing the subject. I did my first one because it had been hanging around forever. I finally had to say to the editor, "this article makes no sense to me!" The editor fixed it in a day or two so it did make sense. Meanwhile, I was getting used to the scripts etc. so now I am not so overwhelmed by them. Also, I know the links to wikilink to, which really helps. —Mattisse (Talk) 02:43, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, they are hard unless your understand what the subject is about. I don't review any articles on GAN because of it. Though I will soon to help get the backlog down. There is the problem. Are articles that are promoted to GA really Good articles. See, someone like me wouldn't know the regulations for a film article or video game. I haven't read the full manual of style article. Plus I haven't read the Video game and films project's MoS pages. I think GAN should be more like FAC. It is made on a poll of votes rather than one person.--WillC 04:34, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

You can look at the various project standards, eg Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Films for their standards, and also look at various FA articles in whatever category of relevance. That is better than reading the whole MoS, which I agree is useless, mind numbing and confusing. But you can look up specific issues on Mos, like "Quotations" etc. and just read the specific issues involved. I agree that "becoming familiar" with th entire Mos is a waste of time. Reviewing an article in an unfamiliar areao is a great way of learning about aritlce construction and requirement. At least it has been for me. —Mattisse (Talk) 04:52, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I wouldn't say the MoS is useless. I just think it is entirely too long and too many extra articles to read.--WillC 05:49, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Ed Wood (film)

You have my permission to copy-edit as much as you want. Wildroot (talk) 01:05, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! —Mattisse (Talk) 01:07, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Courtesy note

Dear Mattisse, you are right in that I would recuse from an arb case involving you as you noted here. However, that is not the next step. Generally, one asks for this as a venue for community discussion, given you either cannot or will not take on board what has been explained to you before. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:43, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Mattisse, I hope you will respond on the RfC. It is not meant to be a lynch-mob, and it is very important that your point of view be included. That will help everyone reading it to try to put things in more perspective. I realize it hasn't been long since this was launched and you might be busy, but I wanted to ask/remind anyway. Karanacs (talk) 19:53, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Special Barnstar
		Awarded for championing the ideals of encyclopedic writing and bringing about countless article improvements as part of her GA review work. Jayen466 15:01, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you so very much! Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 15:10, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Millennium '73

• I am not understanding why this event should be such an emotional issues.

The event is at the crossroads of several conflicting points of view. First, any article related to Prem Rawat is an emotional issue because some editors here are followers/students of his who have a very high opinion of him, while other editors are former followers/students who have a very low opinion of him. Those two groups will never reconcile or agree. The majority of the editors on both sides are single purpose accounts who only edit on this topic. It's all they care about. (FYI, I'm not a former or current follower, and I don't know any personally.) Another aspect of this topic with emotional resonance, which just came up on the talk page, is that in the past followers considered Rawat to be God - at the very least a successor to, or reincarnation of, Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, et al and even the oominsicent, omnipotent god of all things. Followers do not say that anymore and do not like the old claims to be remembered. (In the early 1980s, Rawat ordered the destruction of all previous publications and recordings from the movement as part of the change in approach.) The event, and the press conference in particular, marks one of the few documented occasions when Rawat was questioned about those claims. Followers were also quoted or interviewed about the claims much more extensively than at any other time or place. Third, the event was pivotal in the history of the movement. It went from being what was called the fastest growing new religious movement in the West to a marginal sect. While there were other factors, the failure of the festival and the poor press that resulted were key elements in that dramatic change. What does all of this mean for Millennium '73? The article itself has been remarkably stable since it was posted in August. Text has been moved around, added or deleted, but on the whole the article hasn't changed very significantly. There have been no edit wars or major policy-related disputes. Editors who are followers/students would like some details removed but those are well-sourced and presented neutrally (IMO) so their inclusion or exclusion is just a matter of editorial judgment and not a policy issue. In related articles, some editors have argued at length over how to summarize quotes, which is why I've been reluctant to do so. However the good news is that there don't seem to have been any disagreements over the summarizations I've done since the GAN began. I think that is a good omen for the future stability of the article, even though it's part of a emotionally charged topic.   Will Beback  talk  23:02, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation on why this event is so important as a turning point. And thanks for the relatively hopeful outlook regarding the future of the article. (I am relieved.) Actually, I had been noticing, compared to some politically charged article, the talk page has heen calm and civil. I will let you go through move of your summarizing and then take another look at it. Let me know if you need my help for anything. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 23:10, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I saw your note on the talk page. I'm sorry you're leaving and I hope you'll return. Unless you have a better idea, probably the best thing to do with the Millennium article is to close the GAN as unresolved and relist it again. I'll do that if I don't hear back from you. Best wishes.   Will Beback  talk  03:12, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to be travelling for a couple of weeks, so I won't be able to work anymore on the article. Personally, I think it meets the GA criteria, but that's for you to determine. I'd appreciate it if you could pass or fail the article as it is now. (I know you're understandably pre-occupied with that RfC. It's regretable that such things interfere with improving the encyclopedia.)   Will Beback  talk  07:42, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I have already notified GAN that I have withdrawn from reviewing any articles. I am leaving Misplaced Pages as I have been driven away by an RFC that has made it impossible for me to continue here by poisoning the atmosphere in a way that I can never recover from. I am asking them to ban me and I fervently hope they will for my own sake. Good luck with your article. Warmest regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 07:48, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh, OK. I didn't realize. I'll go ahead and proceed as I suggested above. Best wishes and thanks for your input on this as well as for contributing to the project.   Will Beback  talk  07:56, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello from Ling.Nut

Hi Matisse,

Did I ever thank you for the barnstar? If not, then everything my wife says about me being oblivious and ungrateful is patently true. ;-)

I... have been aware of your unhappiness for quite some time, but have never commented, because I was unsure how (or whether) I could help. I... hope you'll read my comments here. They sum up my position quite nicely. I also hope you can learn to WP:DGAF about any slights, real or perceived, buy other Wikipedians. I say "real or perceived" because BOTH happen all the time—somepeople are insulting, and some people appear insulting when they don't mean to be. You know what I mean.

Later! Ling.Nut 00:07, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Ling.Nut. I have always felt your kindness. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 00:45, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Major depressive disorder

		The Original Barnstar
		A barnstar for Mattisse in recognition of her work in helping bring 'Major depressive disorder to FA status. SilkTork * 19:31, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I've just spent some time studying Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Major depressive disorder/restart and I have left a comment on the RFC.

I feel that you have been misunderstood and poorly treated. SilkTork * 19:31, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you so very much. I appreciate that you took the time to actually look through the FAC and see what did happen, and in spite of the fact that I took out my tormented state of mind on you in the past. It is persons with your heart that may reform me on Misplaced Pages. With my warmest regards and hopes for pleasant and helpful interactions with you in the future, —Mattisse (Talk) 21:17, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

the unpleasant discussion at RfC

• The unpleasant discussion at RfC seems to be spinning in circles, unfortunately. I hope you will see that I am not against you. But it is plain to me that two things are happening over there:

1. The main thing that people are saying is "Please stop accusing folks—almost a cast of thousands of editors—of being in a clique or group or cabal that is aligned against you. It hurts us personally , and has a damaging impact on the morale of various Misplaced Pages processes."
2. Your response is to say... that the comments are those of a clique or group or cabal of editors that is aligned against you. Lather, rinse, repeat.

• Do you see the circularity there? I... hope you can see three things:

1. Everyone is not arrayed against you. In fact, if you read the RfC carefully, you can spot genuine PRAISE from several folks. People like you and like what you do. They are deeply hurt by the fact that you don't trust them (you seem almost not to trust anyone).
2. The World is Not That Way. The world is not this blindingly hostile place where cartoon-character bad guys in black hats hang out on every corner, attacking innocent townsfolk.
3. And So What!?!?! That, I mean, is the only sane response if you encounter someone who really is such a cad. You are a valuable AND worthwhile person. If anyone denigrates that, then that comes from their heart or perceptions, and does not reflect reality.

• Good luck. I hope you will see that if you lay down your arms and accept others (even though they are flawed), the army of bad guys you fear or distrust so much will dissolve into nothing. There simply is no such army. That's my opinion, anyhow. There may be one or two WP:DICKs hanging around, but that's when you pull out your "And So What!?!?!"
• Best wishes, Ling.Nut 09:46, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

As an editor with whom you have a good working relationship (thank you for saying that), I second what Ling says. Geometry guy 11:18, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm glad to see you are retaining a sense of humor about all this, Mattisse. Adding "Cheers" to your signature did make me smile. (Or at least raise an ironic eyebrow.) Geometry guy 21:18, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

apologies

Mattisse, I am sorry that I argued with you at the RfC. While I don't regret the sentiments behind my comments, placing them in that context was inappropriate of me, especially as you had made it clear that you felt the RfC tone was too combative already. It was certainly not my intention by participating in the RfC to make you feel attacked, and I regret if my recent posts there had that effect. Karanacs (talk) 00:52, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the apology. However, I cannot trust anyone who would participate in this group stripping a person of all shred of self respect. . Whatever your intention was, you went along with the FAC people. They are destructive of a person's individual being. They seek to smash and destroy. I do not think it takes a genius to realize that ripping a person's guts apart is not the way to gain cooperation and good will.

It is obvious that the intent is to drive me away. If I am not banned, which I hope will happen, I will continue here with the ugliness now sown in my heart forever by the pure petty meanness of this RFC and the people behind it.

The RFC by the sock puppets Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Mattisse was far kinder. They at least were honest and up front. Hatred disguised as pseudo-kindness and "helpfulness" is far more disgusting that honesty. I am repulsed by all this pretense at "helping" me. Actions speak louder than words, as they say. So they seek to strip me of all self respect so I will come crawling back and be a workhorse again for FAC elite. No thanks. —Mattisse (Talk) 07:33, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

From your recent comments in the RfC, its talk page, and Maralia's talk page, you have made a point of stating that SandyGeorgia has not praised you. Is it praise you wish from Sandy or other FAC regulars? Many of your comments about FAC and its regulars have me utterly confused and perplexed. Because I do not understand them, they irritate me; I assume the logical break is yours. That is my failure, so I am attempting here to clarify what it is you are trying to accomplish. Quite plainly, I do not understand. Do you wish to be praised? Is that what you are after? Is it something else?

My communication with you has been quite minimal. From your comments, it appears that you do not respect those who participate in FAC. That is your right. I suppose you have your reasons for doing so, but I do not know what they are. Perhaps you do not realize that I have treated your view with respect. I think you have good reasons for believing what you believe. I just don't know what they are. If I lacked respect for many people as you appear to feel about FAC, their words would not mean much to me. For this reason I have not communicated with you, assuming my words would mean very little to you. It is from this vantage that I admit I am also confused about why you would want praise from editors you have demonstrated so little respect for.

Then it is perhaps foolish for me to attempt to negate your belief that I am being controlled by anyone on the boards, including SandyGeorgia. I consider myself the highest authority on what motivates me to do what I do. Apologies and much respect to Sandy, but she is fairly low on the list. What you may see as acquiescence through silence is actually a very deliberately limited view of what happens behind the scenes, a desire to flee at the first sign of drama (this example notwithstanding), and a loathing of political cabal-like behavior in the extreme. Your view that I am not only a member of this FAC cabal but one of its main perpetrators made me assume for quite a while that you had me confused with someone else's username. I can only state what I see from my experience, and from that it appears there is a cabal at FAC only because you say it exists. It is there at your insistence, and in a way, it seems to me that you are helping to create a group of editors that resist your comments. I would expect a group to chill toward my opinions should I malign their efforts and accuse them of doing less than average work. Typing that last sentence makes me wonder if we are both after the same thing: praise.

I've looked at your contributions. You appear to be very dedicated to article improvement. Likewise, when I review FACs or write articles, I put forth a lot of effort. I think most FAC regulars do. I miss some stuff. I get easily distracted and leave reviews partially complete. My comments are garbled sometimes. I comment on the esoteric and abstract instead of the concrete. Rather than point out our faults, as you have made clear you do not wish to have done to you, would it not help everyone to acknowledge first the time and effort we volunteers put into this project? Then with the spirit of cooperation, look to improve the areas that need it? If you intend to stay and work on articles it can only benefit you, me, and everyone we both come across to concentrate on articles, acknowledge each other's work, and end this. Allow me then to be first: losing your efforts at article reviewing and improvement would be a loss to the entire project. --Moni3 (talk) 14:15, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I deeply thank you, Moni3 for the above post. To answer you question about praise, it only came to mind reading the RFC. I don't seek praise, but when one editor, me, is singled out for slaughter, I tend to notice the disproportionality of treatment by the FAC delegate. The truth is that I don't have any trouble with FAC editors except the two who filed the RFC, Sandy and Casliber. That few of the others supported the RFC was heartwarming. I will remember to use edit summaries only very sparingly in the future, as that seems to be what ticked Sandy off the most. I also have learned that under no conditions may anything negative be said about FAC, that it is in the Sacred Cow category. Most of the rest of the accusations did not make sense to me and seemed to prove nothing relevant to the present. For the record, I have nothing against you or any of he other FAC editors except the two that filed the RFC. Thank you for your thoughtful post. I appreciate that you took the time to actually read the RFC contents. I don't think most did, but rather assumed because there was an enormous mass of diffs, there must evil editor at the center. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 18:35, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

If I may interject, I'm a little concerned at the conclusions you're drawing from the RfC. The problem was not the use of edit summaries, but their content. Similarly, it's not criticism of FAC per se that has caused such ill-feeling, but rather the means you have used in the past to present your criticism. A number of previously uninvolved editors have been distressed by the way you've pursued various grudges, and it seems harmfully reductive to cast this as more persecution by Sandy and Casliber.

The only "accusation" I would make is that you seem very quick to personalize disputes, and then you hold the ensuing grudges nearly indefinitely. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be fun, on some level - after all, none of us get paid to do this. You'll have more fun - and so will the rest of us - if you can just let some things go. Not every slight needs to be redressed. Not every dispute is the work of a "bad guy" and his or her minions. Not everyone needs to be dichotomized into "ally" or "mortal enemy" - some people are just colleagues. Not all critical feedback is an "attack". Not every adversary needs to be hounded to the ends of the earth. As the Buddha said, sometimes you've just got to let it go.

You obviously do a lot of good work here - that has been a recurring theme in the RfC comments. I'd like your interactions with your fellow editors to be smoother, for everyone's sake, but for that to happen I think it will be necessary to draw deeper conclusions from the RfC than those you've mentioned above. MastCell  19:42, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

RfC closure

I have proposed that the RfC be closed, forthwith and thought as a courtesy that I should inform you of this.

FWIW, I stand by my comments at the RfC that you're a terrific contributor with an unhappy ability to upset other users in good standing. I really hope this can all be a springboard for a happier way forward.

All the best for 2009, --Dweller (talk) 12:54, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Seth Sabal Photographer

Hello, Can you please tell me how to have my deleted page restored? I wrote an article yesterday about a photographer named Seth Sabal. I followed all the rules and established "notablity", sourced all my references and it was deleted. I think this might be a bias delete, based on old posts. I dont even know how about having this fixed, I think it should be included. I noticed all the nice articles that you have written, and would love you help.

Now the editors are insinuating some things about my grammer, and I feel so angry. This is supposed to be a great resource for students like myself, Its even our class assignement to make a Wiki article. I am flabbergasted that it been so difficult with all the correct reference links and obvious notability. PhotobloggerNYT (talk) 21:09, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Can you please help me.

User:Wehwalt just undeleted this as I was trying to restore it. Karanacs (talk) 21:17, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I did because it looks like there was a conflict between two admins, one of whom declined a speedy and one of whom granted it (three minutes apart, so I doubt it was wheel warring). I'm leaving them to figure it out themselves. Photoblogger already was in touch with one of them.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:30, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your help. PhotobloggerNYT (talk) 21:32, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I think you will have to address it through User:Hoary's talk page. Apparently Hoary did save the article in a sandbox, where it can be improved and perhaps resubmitted.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:34, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I have looked for good references on this photographer and cannot find any. I am concluding that the page will not be undeleted as the subject is not notable. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 22:09, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi

Thank you for your response to my comment. I do hope things work out for you. Best wishes, Durova 05:28, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Clarification

I just wanted to leave a little note. When I say I do not "like" you, I do not mean (in turn) that I dislike you. It takes a lot for me to be close with an individual, and bonds of friendship mean dearly to me. However, even basic humanity causes me to feel sympathy with and be concerned for others. There are very few that I do not like, and even they I would seek to be treated in a fitting manner. I am blunt and I air my mind. However, I hold no grudges. My email is always open if you feel that you need to talk about a topic. I always welcome conversation, no matter how unpleasant the topic may be. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:29, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Ottava. I have noticed and been very impressed with your quality of airing your mind but holding no grudges. I have seen you get put down, sometimes rather brutally, and watched you get up, carry on and recover with that person, bearing no malice. Please feel free to interject your opinion in any situation I happen to be embroiled in, as I would appreciate your advice. You are definitely a distinctive person and seem free of the concerns with pride of self that preoccupy many of us. I am not very comfortable with email on Misplaced Pages and only periodically have it enabled. I much rather just be public, however foolish I may appear. But perhaps I should reconsider that position. I definitely need to get helpful, constructive input from others. May be email contact with you would help, as frankly the RFC was confusing and I was able to draw only a few main points from the massive number of diffs meant to show me my failings. So please, I welcome any clarification you can provide. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 17:21, 8 January 2009 (UTC)