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North Macedonia Unassessed

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Name of article

"Sports Arena Boris Trajkovski" is the word-for-word translation of the Macedonian name, but it simply doesn't work in English. Correct English would be "Boris Trajkovski Sports Arena". Compare it to Ed Sullivan Theater (sic), which in Macedonian would be " Театар Ед Саливан ". BalkanFever 06:56, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for moving the article prematurely. I didn't realise that you started a discussion, BalkanFever. Köbra | Könverse 07:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Forged images?

I deleted a number of images that displayed both the flag of the Republic and the Vergina Sun flag. The Vergina Sun is not used by any official body in the Republic, including by sports arenas. At every international match, the flags that are shown are the official flag of the host country and that of the guests. I tried to find out if there were any exeptions. There are no exeptions. That is why it is probably that User MacedonianBoy either forged or used forged images for this article. However, I left one image with the Vergina Sun flag that also includes an irredentist map of the Republic because some fans do use them, so I doubt if that image was forged. Politis (talk) 15:11, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Maybe you should go there and find out for yourself instead of contemplating the authenticity of the images. If you do see the previous (until 95) Macedonian flag there, demand they take it down, get punched in the face, and learn from the experience. BalkanFever 07:32, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Honestly, Politis, how bloody ignorant can you be? Don't you see that the photos have metadata information at the bottom of the images' page which say they were taken with a Samsung digital camera? If they were in any way altered in Photoshop, then the metadata would also be altered to indicate this. Now stop you whining 'cause I just proved they're not fake. If by some slight of the imagination you still wish to challenge my motion, I strongly suggest you seek psychological help, or, at least, do some research on metadata. Köbra | Könverse 12:02, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I have been to the Arena, it is a great building. I suggest that you BalkanFever do the same, if and when you ever pop round to Skopje. If you ever go to the Republika Makedonija, you will see no Vergina flag at the Arena or on any state building. The fact remains, the Ministry of Sports of the government would never break with international protocol: When two national teams meet for an international tournament (such as the one hosted in Skopje), the home stadium displays its own flag and that of the guest; the Vergina flag was not that of the guest team. If you know any different, please share the information. (talk)

Okay. Here's the tricky part: We have photos to prove that those flags are there and there is metadata information proving those photos' authenticity. You have, oh, I don't know... nothing! So unless we can rely on your word (which we can't) and go against Misplaced Pages guidelines (which we can't), you have no case. And if you have no case, then the images shall be reinstated. Honest to God, how would you know the Macedonian government would "never" break international protocol? The Greek government does it all the time, it seems. Köbra | Könverse 14:27, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

If you think the government in Skopje 'breaks protocol' please tell - nothing is impossible. The repeated images of the Arena with Vergina flags in this article aim at making a point (that the Vergina flag is offcially used?). The fact is, that there is already one image there with the flag and map waved by fans. However, the official webpage of the arena shows no Vergina flag. The official MIA news agency showed no pictures of such flags at the arena, and neither did the media in Skopje (to the best of my knowledge). I maintain that it is just about impossible that the Vergina flag would have been flown at an international match, and that of the guest nation ignored. I suggest that you, Köbra, have never been for any length of time to the Republika Makedonia, otherwise you would have sampled their concern for protocol. If you have any Makedonce friends I suggest you ask them to call the Arena if Vergina flags were officially flown. Politis (talk) 11:09, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Again - If you just keep talking, you're not gonna prove anything, which is why the images will stay until you do. So instead of repeating this "protocol" and "guest nation" bullshit, you can start by actually linking to this so-called "official webpage". What is established is that the images with the pre-1995 flag of the Republic of Macedonia in them are authentic and that's it. P.S. The word is "assume", "suggest" means to offer someone a chance to do that. And don't "assume" anything about me, 'cause you don't even know me. Köbra | Könverse 14:39, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I think we have reached a satisfactory agreement. There are plenty of images to illustrate the article; therefore even with 2 or 3 images the article stands correctly and information is provided. There are doubts about the objective and otherwise of some pictures that have been deleted. Their deletion does not diminish the article, it sets it in its proper context.

Otherwise, all I ask, and I would be most greatfull to you it to please prove other than by these images that: on 29 September 2008, the Vergina flag was officialy flown at the Arena in Skopje during a international basketball match between FYR Macedonia (as it is referred to by Eurobasket 2009) and Latvia. Thanks. Politis (talk) 18:31, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Guys, if you treat the images in this article as a matter of making a point about the politics of flag uses, you are doing something wrong, both of you. It's an article about a sports arena, not about the flags. I'm removing those images that were apparently chosen just to show the flags, since they add nothing of information about the building. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:14, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

By the way, just incidentally, the use of the Vergina flag in the building seems to be not too uncommon (here, on a different occasion), so the idea of it being a fake sems rather far-fetched to me. – By the way, if that's an issue, how "official" would that be? Politis seemed to take for granted that it would be in the responsibility of the government. Is it a state-owned building? Who runs the place? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:30, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with "official" use at (any) tournaments. From the - authentic - pictures we can see that both Macedonian flags are displayed (not flown) in the arena. Even if the Government runs the place (don't ask me) it makes no difference, since it is not being used as the flag representing the Republic (national team or otherwise). BalkanFever 09:59, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

There you have it. Now we can all go on about our daily lives in peace... I hope. Köbra | Könverse 10:57, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for info. I'll just get back to the issue tomorrow to give my reasons for suspecting that those picutres may have been manipulated. There are some inconsistencies. As for the above image from FPS, it looks like the Makedonski Bagalci children meeting. Politis (talk) 13:58, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Need I remind you about the metadata? Perhaps I can get Future to explain it to you instead because I don't think you were listening to me when I was explained it earlier. Köbra | Könverse 00:34, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Apparently "Metadata for a photograph would typically include the date and time at which it was taken and details of the camera settings (such as focal length, aperture, exposure)." However, I am told, if one takes a picture of a tampered or forged image, we would end up with the metadata of a forged image passing as the original.

I probably know more about the Republic that you Köbra (though I appreciate your own knowledge and insights). Regarding the Vergina banner, I have found no evidence of stadia or sports Arenas in ther republic displaying officially that flag at international matches. For instance, see . In my experience most (Slav) Macedonian citizens are very proud of their national flag and display it at most occasions. Of course, if these sports venues are hired out for private functions, then it is possible that such displays of the Vergina banner may take place. If the opposite is true I would be greatful to learn about it and such images can be posted at my email through my personal page. Thanks. Politis (talk) 13:31, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

So somebody took a picture of the arena, added the pre-1995 flag using Photoshop (or whatever else), printed it out, then took a photo of that tampered image and uploaded this photo to Misplaced Pages so as to "deceive" the oh-so large number of people that have read this article into thinking that the flag is actually used? This is dumberer than anything else I've read on Misplaced Pages, ever. BalkanFever 13:54, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Politi, you must really hold the "Macedonians" in the highest regard if you think that waving the Vergina flag is somehow beneath them. Their reaction to your dogged assumption of good faith is rather amusing but not in the least surprising, given their persistent violation of the Interim Agreement since Day 1. There is even talk of reverting to the irredentist flag officially, which given the current wave of nationalist hysteria in Skopje is more likely than not. Anyone who dares to object runs the risk of getting "punched in the face", as BF so eloquently put it. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 16:21, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Must you be here? I mean, honestly, we could do with at least one discussion without you giving your egotistical input. Like that songs goes; "I don't give a fuck". Köbra | Könverse 23:17, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

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