Misplaced Pages

• For what it's worth, I could care less about the questions. The first question is especially pointless, and the other two don't tell me a whole lot about the candidate either. Frankly, I don't care that much if the candidate answers the questions, and I certainly don't approve of this newfangled requirement of expecting the candidate to write extensive essays on what are essentially useless questions. Kelly Martin (talk) 01:41, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Delist

I delisted Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Private Butcher because the user seems to have left (or at least has some problems). Would a bureaucrat please close the nomination. Broken S 20:47, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

You don't need a bureaucrat for that. It's just like non-admins can close AfD's, but only if they result isn't delete. Non-bureaucrats can close RfA's, but only if the result isn't promote. Redwolf24 (talk) 22:55, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

I figured that might be so, but where are the instructions? I have never closed an RfA. Broken S 23:48, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Bleh I don't know the template, it was created pretty recently (but then again so was the nomination template...) just ask Nichalp or UninvitedCompany. Redwolf24 (talk) 23:57, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

To bad about this fellow incidentally. Marskell 00:30, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it's a shame. I believe he's a recovering addict, who suffers from terrible depression. By the way, I wish people wouldn't keep piling on the "oppose" votes once it's clear that an application is going to be unsuccessful, and especially when it's clear that the candidate has personal problems. In the six months that I've been on Misplaced Pages, this is the post I feel least good about. Ann Heneghan 00:40, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Obviously Ann you've had a change of heart since then, and I applaud you for it. I fully agree that it's unnecessary, if not downright evil, to pile on oppose votes after an obvious failed nomination. Redwolf24 (talk) 00:47, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

this makes me feel really bad for him, I'm afraid that RFA was probably a very bad experience for him. Jtkiefer ----- 02:31, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

How many good users do you think we lost due to having a bad RFA? Borisblue 07:22, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Given how high standards have become now, we should be careful about turning away good people. Would it be nuts to create an intermediate usergroup between Registered and Sysop ("Moderator"?) - perhaps without blocking ability or whatever? (This is easy in MediaWiki 1.5, I think.) Then good users who look likely to be good admins can be recommended for that status instead, rather than just denying RFA (which must feel like a pretty unpleasant rejection from the community). Alternatively, grant adminship on probation (for a month, say); use the nomination talk page to collect discussion of whether to de-sysop a new admin - this might ease some concerns based on giving powers that are so rarely revoked. Rd232 09:33, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I can tell you, my RfA was MUCH harder than I thought it was to go through, even though people had nothing but nice things to say (it resulted in a three week wikibreak). As for an intermediate step between user and admin, I was thinking a while ago when ITN on the main page was never updating, how about giving some users the right to edit protected pages (and no other powers except that and perhaps rollback). They would be instructed never to edit page that has been protected due to an edit war, but they could freely edit things that are protected due to vandalism, such as the main page templates and other pages. I don't think that a huge elaborate process should take place, just that if an admin sees a user who never vandalises, he asks him wether or not hed like to be a "Trusted user", and if so, the admin would make him that. No vote or anything, just an admins good judgement (it isn't like it's a huge power or anything. Aslong as a user is found not to be a POV-pusher or vandal, this shouldn't be to much of a problem). Ofcourse, if he abuses his power even once, any admin should take his powers away. What do you guys think? gkhan 12:05, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I think that conflicts with the basic philosophy that pages should be protected as rarely as possible. And bestowing powers in such an ad hoc way smells like a recipe for trouble, particularly if you think about the implications of needing to regulate removal of same in cases of abuse. If we want more powers for Trusted Users, the automatic move power bestowal process seems a better model (all but most recent 1% of accounts, AFAIR). Rd232 13:56, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

A few things:

1. Why not let users know about user scripts?
2. PB will be back. I'm sure of it.
3. The users who choose to actively participate in the RfA process are constantly in flux. At any given time, the RfA process seems to reflect the current cohort of users who wish to become more involved and recognized in the community by participating on RfAs.
4. I feel that generally the RfA process has become much more stressful, and much more vicious. Compare the RfA process here with that on say, the German Misplaced Pages. Even if the comparison may not be entirely valid, there is a noticible difference. Generally, I feel that one factor on why the feedback on certain candidates become progressively negative is because sometimes we have a tendency to uncover "flaws" when we want to find them. The Wiki seems to be slow to forgive at times. --HappyCamper 22:16, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Please, do not prematurely remove admin nominations. Please see Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship/Archive_34#Consensus_Regarding_Pile-Ons, which lacks concensus. If a nominee wants to withdraw their nomination, they can. --Durin 14:15, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I think "consensus" is best gauged from actual practice. Nominations are regularly removed prematurely if they stand no chance of success. I removed PB's nomination because it stood little chance of success (though not nil) and had clearly caused him a great deal of stress; it seems to me that stress-prevention, where possible, is in the community's best interest. I consider it unfortunate that users pile oppose votes on to nominations which are clearly unqualified or otherwise failing, but as long as they continue to do so, I will continue to remove said nominations. — Dan | Talk 15:55, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

• So actual practice determines policy? If not, would you please direct us as to the policy that covers delisting RfAs that are going poorly? Removing PB's nomination might have been in his best interest, and it might not. At least one nominee whose RfA was going very poorly was mad when it was removed prematurely. You are presuming that you know the inner thoughts of each nominee whose RfA you prematurely remove. A more balanced response is to suggest to the user that they withdraw their nomination. There are multiple reasons for retaining RfAs that are going poorly. Whether a user is becoming stressed over their RfA is not the only interest in play. If this "actual practice" is policy, then I suggest we open a poll to determine what should be done; it is and has been open for debate. Relying on "actual practice" to summarily override that debate is (unless you can cite policy), I think, less than we could hope to be. --Durin 17:38, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

An open poll might actually be a good idea. I'm sure I have read somewhere, though, that nominations can be removed if it is clear that they will fail. I'm personally in favour of removing them. I remember the case of the candidate you refer to, Durin, but I think he was unusual in wanting to prolong the agony. And, as far as I recall, Dan agreed to replace it, since he requested that. I think also that it was quite appropriate to remove PB's nomination, since he had left a note on his userpage saying that he was leaving Misplaced Pages. Ann Heneghan 18:22, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Ann is correct. In the case of GordonWatts, his nomination had received many more oppose votes than support, and I removed it to prevent a pile-on. He requested that I relist it, and I did so, believing that it should be his choice; however, several other bureaucrats demurred, and the nomination was quickly unlisted again. He continued to persist in requesting adminship and wrote various lengthy messages to Jimbo, all to no avail. In any case, he is certainly the only candidate I know to have protested at the removal of his candidacy, and (not to make presumptions, but) in doing so he probably damaged his future prospects for adminship (see here and the following sections for extensive discussion of the matter). As for a basis in policy: the instructions have read for a long time "Nominations that will clearly fail may be removed earlier to prevent discussions that generate ill will." — Dan | Talk 20:30, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

• I'll outline my rationale for retaining failing RfAs again:
  1. If the nomination was done in good faith, it's reasonable to assume the nominee has the ability to remove the nomination themselves if they so choose. In fact, some editors have done so.
  2. Even in failing nominations benefit can happen. A failed nomination can teach a nominee in what areas they need to improve before their next nomination. It can serve as a template on things to improve upon. Prematurely removing an RfA from consideration deprives the nominee of that resource potentially leading to a future nomination going poorly because their earlier nom was removed before everyone could comment. For an example, view this comment from a nominee whose RfA was likely to fail .
  3. Early removal of an RfA presumes that all RfA voters check on WP:RFA frequently. I don't think this is the case. We leave nominations open for 7 days for a reason. Supposed problems with a candidate might be in error. I'm aware of at least one case in which a nomination was beginning to go poorly due to low edit counts vs. total time on project. I contributed earlier on to the discussion to show people a graph which showed contributions had been mainly within the prior few months, and their numbers for the entire time should probably not be considered, rather their contributions compared to the few months in which they'd been contributing in earnest. If I hadn't contributed earlier on to that discussion, that nomination might have gone poorly and might have been prematurely removed.
  4. A failing nomination can teach all of us about problems with the process. I cite Wikiwoohoo's RfA in which nobody could come with any reason to oppose the nominee except on grounds of editcountitis. I did not support the RfA, but I did challenge people to come up with other grounds on which to oppose. The fact that nobody could is quite telling, and should teach us all something about the process.
  5. If we are willing to put in place a policy regarding negative pile-ons (in essence, a speedy delete of RfAs doomed to fail) then a reverse policy should be considered as well; speedy promotes. Just considering such can serve to highlight the errors in a speedy delete notion. A speedy promote policy would be absurd. For example, look at NichBush24's RfA. This nomination was 36-0 a day and a half into the nom. I placed one negative vote, and assumed the nomination would still sail through. I was wrong. The nomination later failed 43-23.
  6. Theoretical situation: A nominee is placed for RfA. Within hours, a group of friends agree to populate the RfA with oppose votes and rapidly turn the RfA to 1-9 against (or maybe worse). Maybe their reasons are valid; maybe they aren't. A bureaucrat, on good conscience, would need to evalute each individual vote as the RfA proceeds to see if good faith votes are actually ruling against the nomination. Is this done? Regardless, even if it is done, a nomination that is going poorly suffers from perception problems. This could influence people not to vote, or worse vote oppose just because others did.
  7. Some nominees are not having their feelings hurt by an RfA that is going poorly. We are judging for them, without their involvement in the decision, that since their feelings are being hurt we must act. This policy is based on a lack of evidence; it presumes bureaucrats should act to prevent hard feelings without evidence that any hard feelings are being created.
  8. At what level do you decide an RfA is going poorly? 1-3? 4-13? 7-18? Where is the line? Is it communicated somewhere to nominees? I don't think so. I believe the line is arbitrary, and is variable depending on the bureaucrat. This variability can, in itself, lead to hard feelings. The policy, what there is of it, is not clearly delineated. If you delineate it, there needs to be a rationale for the placement of the border, as it were. Else, it's purely arbitrary and subjective.
  9. Since the policy is not clearly delineated, we have had people who are not bureaucrats, and even not admins who have removed nominations that were failing. Was this improper? Who knows. The policy doesn't say if it is or not.
• In the face of the above reasons, the only reasons I have seen put forward for premature removal are:
  1. Desire to not cause the nominee to have their feelings hurt by a nomination gone awry.
  2. Desire to prevent the community from developing a sense of discord within the RfA process.
• I submit that the first of these two reasons can be addressed by educating the nominee on how their nomination can be withdrawn if they desire such. The second of these two reasons can be addressed by fostering productive, constructive input from frequent RfA voters; perhaps an education page on what an RfA voter should consider, and how they should act in the process. --Durin 20:58, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Durin, why not apply for a bureaucratship then? You seem to be so passionate about the process. --HappyCamper 00:00, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Lazy Admins

I'd successfully nominated Thames to adminship (28-3-1), despite him stating that he didn't have time to do admin chores. Now I see another guy, Sfoskett running on the same platform Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Sfoskett. I don't want to see new policy formulated or anything, but I'm just curious, what do you all think of lazy admins, candidates who say they don't have time for admin chores? My take on it personally is that as long as I'm confident a candidate won't do harm with admin tools, I don't really care if he only goes on RC patrol once a year.Borisblue 06:47, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm something of a lazy admin myself these days; I became an admin ages ago, and I don't really have much time any more. I don't see why I shouldn't remain an admin, though, and by extension I don't see why somebody else shouldn't be. More generally, I don't like how hard it seems these days to become an admin (particularly those who insist on some absurdly high edit count) --Khendon 06:55, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, well personally I wouldn't vote for someone who says they dont plan on doing any admin chores, why else would they want admin? Notoriety? Too block users at will? As far as edit count.. ugh, I can't stand those discussions. I don't think it's harded to become and admin though, look out how many there have been in the past few months, it seems like were filling up a whole ship of 'em or something. «»Who?¿? 07:06, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I would have thought that the quality of a user's edits would be used to determine if a user was to become an administrator rather than using a user's edit count. Mark 02:48, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I treat the "admin chores" in the same way I do page editing; when I have a few minutes, I'll dig around for something I can do. Sometimes this is editing a page, sometimes it's involving myself in a talk page, sometimes it's protecting a page, and so on. What I'm getting at is that I do all these things sporadically, and I don't think that reduces their individual value, or mean I shouldn't be an admin. --Khendon 07:53, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I must admit that in the past month or so my use of administrative authority has tapered off to very little. I also rarely edit. Kelly Martin 02:23, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

As a side note, I've noticed a pattern in both Thames' and Sfoskett's RFAs: Durin comments about their "laziness", both receive some initial oppose votes because of that, and then suddenly the tide turns and they receive an avalanche of support votes. It seems, bizarrely that the easiest way to pass RFA is to get 'outed' as a lazy admin! Borisblue 07:27, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Shhh, everyone will hear you :) Yea that is kind of weird, maybe others feel its comforting to think they won't have trigger happy admins? Dunno. «»Who?¿? 07:34, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

If I get elected to arbcom I promise to take it easy. INSTANT SUCCESS!!!! Ryan Norton

I'll cut and paste my comment from Sfoskett's RfA here: I'd rather have someone trusted to use admin powers doing so occasionally instead of not having them at all. Consider it this way - suppose you have $50,000 in the bank, and someone offers you a gift of cash, but it's only $50. Do you turn it away because it's too little? Even if Sfoskett makes minimal use of admin powers, any use he does make will surely benefit Misplaced Pages, so why deny him (and the rest of us) even a minimal benefit?  BDAbramson 13:13, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Quite. As long as you've demonstrated the necessary skills and experience to drive safely, you get a driving licence; it's not conditional on promising to drive a lot. Adminship should be the same. Rd232 13:47, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree with BDAbramson, and similarly I'll post the comment I made on Thames' RfA: what does it matter if he won't have much time to do admin chores? It's not as though promoting him takes up a place someone who has more time might get; there's no limit. If he also does a little, that a little less work everyone else has to do. I don't believe there's any reason to deny a trustworthy editor admin rights. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 13:58, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

To extend the comparison with driving, as an admin you can always stop dead in the road, pull out your cell phone, and call the cops (WP:AN, Village Pump, Help Desk) to ask, "I'm thinking of making a left turn here—besides slowing down and using my turn signal, is there anything else I need to do?" You can look out the window and see that there's been a massive shisnowstorm on WP:AN/I and say, "I really don't want to go out in that, maybe I'll stay indoors today and catch up on my housework."

Admin drivers can choose their vehicles and terrain. You can do the very necessary–but uncontroversial and straightforward–lawn tractor work: rolling back obvious vandalism and that sort of thing. Not every admin wants or needs to participate in the complicated and contentious stuff. I would support someone for adminship if he had shown good judgement in the past, made efforts to fix honest mistakes promptly and with good humour, and didn't seem likely to try to overreach his abilities in the future. We need admins who will mow the lawn and tend the garden—admins who can drive lawn tractors and delivery trucks, not just armoured personnel carriers. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:14, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

All these analogies are hurting my head. :) Talrias (t | e | c) 15:04, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I view it in terms of tics on Elephant's back: there's enough blood for everbody right? Conversely, there is the astronaut criterion: would you trust a kid with a model airplane to be an astronaut? No, you wouldn't, no matter how much he loves his model. This reminds me of the Peanuts cartoon: why did Patty move the football away from Charlie Brown all the time? And why, if adminship is like a football (arguably it isn't, but just suppose), should we hold the ball back from anyone? "Sometimes we should" you might say, and you'd be right. But still. Marskell 15:12, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

The metaphors in this section are more useless than a weasel in a cardboard shirt. Borisblue 18:23, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

• Hey, that is a simile.  BDAbramson 22:24, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to compare this situation to an analogy and a metaphor. Because the admin is like the first part of the analogy, it can be compared to the RfA that it is in. A metaphor works in a similar way, one part is analogized to the other. And then analogies are like metaphors, but that's a simile. Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk | W_S 22:21, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

P.S. If that didn't make sense, don't worry. It didn't to me, either. :-)

Is this becoming ENG 101 or something? Keep this up, and I think we should BJAODN these literary devices, and enshrine them as "Tips for the Aspiring Admin - How to Tend the Wikipedian's Good Garden" --HappyCamper 23:56, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I really dislike the connotation of this section. "Lazy" is a word that carries some heavy duty negative impact. In my votes where I voted oppose because of a lack of frequent participation of a nominee, I did not cite "laziness" as a reason. I do maintain, and will continue to maintain, that I feel an admin needs to be active to be an effective admin. I am intending on writing my rationale up on a subpage of mine, since this stance of mine is questioned periodically and I would like to avoid repeating myself. I do not see something inherently bad in suggesting that admin nominees be frequent contributors to the project, and I do see a number of positive benefits. My stance on this point is in good faith. Barring more persuasive (to me) arguments against it than the above, I expect I'll continue to support this stance. --Durin 21:44, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Archiving

I archived the exceedingly long list of Archives to an Archive at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for adminship/Archives. Cheers. Ëvilphoenix 22:41, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Should we archive the archive of archives? :-) Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk | W_S 22:43, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Only if the archive-archive is aware of its own Gödel number. (apologies for the lame-ass math joke) gkhan 22:49, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

/nominate

Whoa when did this come in? Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/nominate. This is a mess, and I've seen it confusing people a lot. Why not go to the old version with a rather simple, copy and paste, set of instructions on the main RfA page? With the new policy I'm sure we'll have ones listed before they accept, but we could add in the instructions to make it <!--{{Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Redwolf24}}--> until the person has accepted. I don't like this subpage at all, totally confusing... Redwolf24 (talk) 02:35, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the old process was really confusing too. The thing is that this way could be much much better if it was just slighty reworded. I prefer the /nominate as long as the instructions are worded a bit better(more clear and flexible, some of the intructions only apply for moniations of others but it is not clear on that).

BTW, when is a bereauocrat going to close up my RfA?Voice of All 02:44, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Hey MTG, it's spelled Bureaucrat (like beautiful). Or you can just say B-crat. Redwolf24 (talk) 02:55, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Haha, Redwolf schooled me on the spelling of Bureaucrat too, don't worry VoA. And I agree, the old proccess was WAY better. -Greg Asche (talk) 03:03, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

It took me ages to learn to spell it, until I had to write it out over and over for a Signpost piece on them. the wub "?!" 08:31, 23 October 2005 (UTC)