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ESStonia

ESStonia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

A nonnotable pejorative pun with the name "Estonia" used by anti-Estonian Russians. There is no analytical articles which discuss this term, only examples of usage. Mukadderat (talk) 01:36, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

• Delete as a failed attempt to translate into English a Russian pun. Incidentally, the cyrillic alphabet does not have the character "S". ("C" is used as the equivalent of the Latin "S"). -- Blanchardb -- timed 02:46, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

It is not a failed attempt. It is exactly how it is spelt in Russian. --Russavia 03:18, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

• Delete and merge content into Anti-Estonian sentiment. This is more than a neologism, it is a protologism, and I don't think english Misplaced Pages should be used as a vehicle to promote protologisms. Martintg (talk) 02:52, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Yet you voted to keep Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Putinjugend. Why's that? --Russavia 03:20, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

So did a lot of other people. The difference is that there are scholarly papers written on the Putinjugend, it has been subject so study and analysis. Not so with the term eSStonia, this article only describes its usage. Therefore it should be deleted and the content merged into Anti-Estonian sentiment. Martintg (talk) 03:44, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

There are no scholarly papers written on Putinjugend. There are scholarly papers written on Pro-Kremlin youth groups, which use the term either in the title or in passing in the paper itself. There's a difference. --Russavia 03:52, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Additionally, the article clearly states "The term perceives Estonia as a neo-Nazi state which glorifies its Nazi past whilst it desecrates war memorials dedicated to the Soviet victory over Nazi Germany in the Great Patriotic War." That is sourced to 3 different sources, and describes the etymology and reasoning behind the term. --Russavia 04:04, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Of course there is an academic paper on the topic: Nasi - Die Putin-Jugend by Ulrich Schmid, professor of Russian culture and society at St. Gallen University. Martintg (talk) 04:09, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

That paper is on Nashi, but which uses the word Putinjugend as a descriptor for the organisation. No difference here. --Russavia 04:45, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

• Keep and expand To use some arguments from Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Putinjugend, I can't see why this widely used term should be deleted just because some doesn't like it. It's a wellknown term..., wikipedia should be a neutral protocol of realities, actually used terms etc. and not decided by individuals' displeasures., This term is used in mass media. Besides, the article seems to be well sourced., eSStonia is a well-sourced and widely used term. As wiki is not censored it should have its place., etc. Well known Russian politician Konstantin Zatulin has used the term to describe Estonia within the context of the controversy, as have other political commentators in Russia. We have articles on Putinjugend, Phone Call to Putin, Putinism, etc and these are terms which are either fringe terms or are used in a disparaging way. Edward Lucas, who frequently attacks Russia in his articles and books has used both Putinjugend and eSStonia in his articles, and is used as references in both articles (2 separate articles in this instance), and he himself recognises that eSStonia is a widely used term. So keep as per that, and for fighting systematic bias in Russian topics. --Russavia 03:51, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

What is there to expand? So in other words what you are saying is that this article eSStonia is just a WP:POINT creation by you because you disagree with the result of various AfDs for the articles Putinjugend, Phone Call to Putin and Putinism. Martintg (talk) 04:09, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

No, there is no point to it. It's a widely used term (as acknowledged by Edward Lucas), and it deserves an article. The only WP:POINT, I guess, is the hypocrisy that some will vote to keep or delete based upon their own biases, and not within policy. And as one can see from eSStonia, it is just as well sourced, as Putinjugend. The creation of this article has been done purely because the sources are there which describe what is behind the term, and also usage of the term in contemporary Russia. Nashi, the Young Guard, Komsomolskaya Pravda have used the term. Yabloko have asked regarding the legality of usage of the term (which nothing more is known about). And media outlets such as The Economist, MK Gazeta, Kommersant, Rosblat, Novaya Gazeta, Vzglyad, Grani.ru, Estonian Novosti, Svoboda News (RFE/RL) and Komsomolskaya Pravda have published information about the usage of the term. It's more than notable. --Russavia 04:23, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Alex below has put it quite succinctly. If our inclusion standards allow Putinjugend, based upon only a few sources using the term in passing, there is no difference for this one, except this one has documentary actual usage of the term in different sectors of Russian society. --Russavia 04:45, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

• Weak Keep - marginally notable neologism. Still the notability is established by multiple references to the independent reliable sources and some real-life newspaper campaign. Judging from the discussion on Putinjugend, I guess the notability threshold for the politically loaded neologisms seems to be quite low nowadays Alex Bakharev (talk) 04:11, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment. This article tells: Along with the term eSStonia, President of Estonia Toomas Hendrik Ilves was referred to as IlveSS, and Prime Minister of Estonia Andrus Ansip was referred to as AnSSip. But an article that mentioned Putin-Dobby has been deleted, even with references to New York Times and BBC. Any logic? Do we want "Putin-Dobby" back?Biophys (talk) 04:48, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
  • the notability threshold for the politically loaded neologisms seems to be quite low nowadays let us start raising it. --Pan Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 16:56, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
• Keep, as long as neologisms like Putinjugend, Phone Call to Putin, etc., are allowed in WP. Rationale for keeping is essentially the same. P.S. A note for uninvolved editors: It’s amazing to see how all this circus votes ‘delete’ here, while pushing ‘keep’ in, for instance, and . Beatle Fab Four (talk) 05:30, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
• Keep per Alex Bakharev. KNewman (talk) 09:27, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
• Keep Warrington (talk) 11:05, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 11:22, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Estonia-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 11:22, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
• Abstain. Seems the main argument for "Keep" here is WP:OTHERSTUFF. Putin-Dobby, with 118 news hits, certainly looks more notable than eSStonia with its total of 18 news hits. Martintg (talk) 11:48, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
• Keep per Beatle Fab Four. ellol (talk) 12:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
• Delete we don't need such propaganda rubbish here, as we don't need Putin-Dobby or Putinland, either. --Pan Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 16:55, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
• Keep as long as it is encyclopædic. Misplaced Pages can and should discuss interesting examples of propaganda -- and without this specimen, Misplaced Pages's overview of Putinist Russia would be incomplete. 62.65.239.167 (talk) 20:30, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

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