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Michael Hardy

Michael Hardy (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) I had been attempting to resolve a conflict over a deletion with Hardy, but he insisted on calling my comments bullshit four times, I don't think one on one discussion would work with him. I had deleted an image he uploaded, without any description page; instead, it had a redirect to a non-existent page, which I proceeded to delete. He proceeds to inform of his unilateral undeletion, also adding an unnecessary inflammatory note on my talk. I revert the note, and attempt to explain why I deleted the image, but the discussion ends in the bullshit comments. I'm at a loss as to how I can further explain, and hopefully someone can help me out. On a tangential note, I've looked through Michael Hardy's deletion log and it seems he likes unilaterally reversing other admin's actions, for example , , , . Maxim_(talk) 23:18, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm rather concerned by the undeletions of Robert Denno, which appears to be a text book example of a wheel war. Two administrators deleted it as being a copyvio, and twice Michael Hardy restored the copyvio via undeletion. Truely concerning. MBisanz 23:32, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

It would be a really good idea to talk these out, and ask Michael to weigh in here with this, especially on the undeletion of possible copyvio material (not that possible wheel warring is a good thing, either, or the hot language). rootology (C)(T) 23:40, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

The explanation at Talk:Robert Denno and the logs seem clear enough. Apparently the initial speedy deletion was a mistake (not for reason of suspected copyvio), and Hardy only restored possible copyvio to the history once, while Moonriddengirl eliminated it from there subsequently. John Z (talk) 00:18, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Here is what happened:

• On September 1st, 2008 someone uploaded image:Ladakh Monestary.jpg. That is a misspelling of "monastery".
• Today I found that I could not move an image. I first tried at least redirecting image:Ladakh Monastery.jpg to image:Ladakh Monestary.jpg.
• I inquired at the village pump and was told I needed to download the image and re-upload with a different name.
• I did so. Then there were two identical image pages with different names. The page titled image:Ladakh Monastery.jpg was then a jpg image. If you looked at image:Ladakh Monastery.jpg, you saw the picture.
• "Maxim" deleted that within one minute.

I don't know what he means above when he says "instead, it had a redirect to a non-existent page". That is nonsense. There was nothing resembling a redirect; there was only a picture, with my comments about who had uploaded it first.

Is there REALLY something wrong with my restoring Poisson hidden markov model? That restoration has already been discussed at great length. Someone deleted it on the grounds that it was "patent nonsense" and the subject could not be identified. That is absurd. Just because an article is clumsily written and an admin doesn't understand it because he lacks familiarity with the field, is no reason to call something "patent nonsense" when 10 seconds with Google would have identified the subject. Speedy deletions are not for disputed cases; restoring after a thoughtless speedy deletion is proper. If someone thinks Poisson hidden Markov model should be deleted, they should take it to AfD (I don't think anyone will do that; I don't think anyone thinks an AfD could succeed).

It is nonsense to say that the image that got speedily deleted "had a redirect to a non-existent page". There was nothing remotely resembling a redirect in it. Here's the history. Michael Hardy (talk) 23:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

It's pretty clear what's going on - Michael Hardy was attempting to rename an image, a task he's never done before, and he got confused. User:Maxim reacted to the peculiar activity before he could straighten things out, and they both assumed bad faith. Also, User:Maxim may be unaware of MediaWiki's new support for image redirects since version 1.13. See here. This may not be turned on on En (I don't know), but it is on Commons. Also, let's not conflate this with Poisson hidden markov model, which was a clear-cut correct restore. Dcoetzee 00:06, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Except that this revision is undoubtedly a redirect to a non-existent page. Black Kite 00:04, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

With the exception of copyvio in Robert Denno, the other restores all look legitimate. WP:IAR is very useful in dealing with speedy deletions done by users who have no idea what they are doing. No idea why the situation with Maxim got so heated over the Ladakh Monastery image, as both users were trying to do the right thing -- Samir 00:11, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

There was no redirect in the page Maxim deleted. He could have just left it alone; it was a perfectly good jpg file.

For the Robert Denno matter, the solution was to rewrite the page so that it didn't contain copyrighted material from another web page. (It was probably not a copyright violation, but rather a case where the fact that permission had be given had simply been omitted. But it wasn't formatted properly for a Misplaced Pages article and would have had to be rewritten because of that anyway.) Michael Hardy (talk) 00:35, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

If you want to get technical, neither article was an R1 (now G8) candidate because there were versions in the history that were not G8. However, the new image was eligible for deletion under F1. To avoid this, I'd suggest we create some kind of template indicating a image move in progress, that can be included in the description of re-uploads. I also suggest that you assume good faith, considering that Maxim was understandably quite confused about what you were trying to do. Dcoetzee 00:43, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

If there's any way I could have figured out that he was "understandably confused", I don't know what it was. He deleted an image that was in fact an image and called it a redirect, although it in no way contained or resembled a redirect. Michael Hardy (talk) 01:32, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

The 17:22 version here says #REDIRECT] (Ladakh Monestary is a non-existent page.) One minute later, you uploaded the picture, at 17:23. But though the picture shows, take a look at the source of the page. It still only has the redirect. The actual material one would expect to see doesn't show up until here after being repaired by User:Maxim. Perhaps this is why he thought it was a redirect? I'm not much into uploading images myself, but I can see that this might have been confusing. --Moonriddengirl 01:46, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Michael, the details are unimportant, and there's little sense in rehashing them. The point is that you were just trying to rename an image, and your initial introduction of a redirect - spotted by Maxim midway through the process - gave the wrong impression of what was going on. Maxim should have been more careful and checked the history before deleting under R1 (now G8); this also would have pointed out there was an ongoing action and he could have consulted you first. But I'm sure once the misunderstanding came to light, he would have been glad to restore his own deletions and help complete the rename. In an area where you lack experience, you should be more careful and communicative. Dcoetzee 02:03, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Moonreddengirl: I have no idea how you got those two links both dated 17:23 whose content is different. Can someone explain what those are?

My descriptions of Maxim's comments as "BULLSHIT" were certainly thoroughly deserved by Maxim. Those of his comments that don't deserve that epithet remain cryptic at best. Michael Hardy (talk) 04:16, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

PS: I've edited Misplaced Pages articles daily for more than six years and created thousands of pages, and I think this may be the very first time a page I've created has been deleted. Michael Hardy (talk) 04:17, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

The first link is to an old version of the image description page; the second link is what you get if you visit the first link and click "edit this page." In other words, the image, the file history, and the file links are all generated information that is included automatically; the only content on the page was the redirect. Unlike uploading a new image, when you upload an image that already exists, your upload description is not used as page content; it is only placed in the upload summary. The page text was fixed by Maxim in this diff. Dcoetzee 05:29, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Clarification in case anyone is confused by comments above: There's nothing wrong with speedy restoration of a speedily deleted article if the restoring admin deems it appropriate. That's part of what the word "speedy" means. That is NOT "wheel warring". If the deleting admin still thinks it should be deleted and the difference cannot otherwise be resolved, the deleting admin then takes it to "Articles for Deletion". It's not extremely unusual to see admins saying of an article "Molecular biology? What's that??? Never heard of it!!! Speedy delete!!!!" (or substitute for "molecular biology" any other field that requires some study beyond elementary school), although we haven't lately seen the torrent of that sort of thing that we saw in February and March 2008. That's exactly what happened with Poisson hidden Markov model. That's why I restored it. Michael Hardy (talk) 06:17, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

No one is contesting your restorations and there is no need to defend against unrelated accusations here. The case itself is a simple misunderstanding. It doesn't matter who's right or wrong, a little friendliness and looking to the future would close the matter. Please be calm. Dcoetzee 13:11, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Michael, I have no clue how it was three years ago, but nowadays it is considered preferable to discuss with the deleting admin before taking action. Putting that aside, however, I am shocked that you remain content to call my comments bullshit without making an attempt to understand them. I noticed the redirect with an external tool, and seeing as the image page had no description (it was a copyvio too, since you copied the file without attribution, which is a requirement of the cc-by-3.0 license). I proceed to delete the image, yet you decide unilaterally overturn me. I've actually fixed the image for you a long time ago, yet you still continue to call my comments bullshit which is concerning on a few counts—you still seem to be unable to properly move an image, you don't understand copyright law, and your behaviour is unbecoming of an admin. Maxim_(talk) 13:42, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Maxim: What appears to merit the term "bullshit" is your repeated assertion that you attempted to explain what you were doing. You did not and I don't see how it could be maintained that you did. You say it was a copyright violation because it was not attributed. That is false: when I re-uploaded the image, I included a statement of who uploaded it first, when that happened, and under what title it was uploaded, and I also commented that it ought to be made possible to move images to preserve the history.

Several people here have referred to "description pages". I have no idea what those are.

Discussing with the deleting admin is something that I take to apply to things other than "speedy" deletions, in which discussion preceded the deletion. No discussion precedes a speedy deletion. With something like Poisson hidden markov model, in which the grounds for speedy is that the article is "patent nonsense" and gives insufficient context to identify the subject, when in fact the subject is crystal-clear and the only way it could have appeared to be nonsense is the deleter's ignorance and the lack of ten seconds of googling, can anyone object to speedy restoration? Michael Hardy (talk) 15:40, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

• What the heck has this thread got to do with Poisson hidden markov model? Answer - nothing! Maxim's thread concerns the way that you use language to belittle his work in relation to the image:Ladakh Monestary.jpg - both at his talk page and then later at the thread that he starts to discuss this at your talk page. It seems to me that you have blown this whole thing up by way of your reactions - which appear certainly to be not assuming good faith and somewhat vitriolic. I note that there have been several recent discussions at your talk page asking you to reconsider treating others in that way.--VS 20:14, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Maxim's initial posting that started this thread cited my restoration of Poisson hidden markov model. Michael Hardy (talk) 20:27, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Dcoetzee: You say no one is contesting my restorations. But the initial posting that started this thread contested my restorations and cited in particular Poisson hidden Markov model.

VirtualSteve: The initial posting that started this thread contested my restorations and cited in particular Poisson hidden Markov model, so you're statement to the contrary is mistaken. Michael Hardy (talk) 20:46, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Michael - of course I can see that he uses a series of 4 examples which includes the Markov model situation. But his point is not about that situation, (or indeed the other examples he cites) it is about the way that you come to, or comment about other long standing editors/admins pages and treat those persons in a way that you clearly would not accept being treated yourself. You are clearly a good, perhaps even great editor, but your inability to assume good faith of your fellows, and then when they come to your talk page to complain, seek explanation or apology (as the threads and history shows) for writing such things, does not assist you in maintaining such an appearance.--VS 22:43, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Maxim cited your previous restorations as (dubious) evidence that you made a habit of irrational wheel warring, and nobody agrees with that implication, which we've already dismissed. It's not your actions that are at issue here, it's your attitude. You're being highly defensive, and refusing to admit fault, which isn't conducive to resolution. In an area where you lack experience, namely working with images, the appropriate response is to explain what you're trying to do and ask what you ought to do; you could have politely asked why he deleted the image, which may have been out-of-process but was in good faith. And likewise Maxim should have checked the history, seen that you were trying to do something, and contacted you before deleting. Try to understand his point of view, and think about reconciliation - no one will remember this thread in a year, but relationships with other editors are important and long-term. Dcoetzee 23:14, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

He wrote an enormous number of words, of which he later said they were an attempt to explain what he did. I don't see that they amount to an attempt to explain.

I do wonder if he looked at the image before deleting. He says his grounds were a redirect to a non-existent page. But if you find that or anything else that plainly matches a criterion for speedy deletion, you're not supposed to delete at that point; you're supposed to look into the matter and find out what's going on at that point. (Same thing with pages that you find incomprehensible and contextless. Usually a google search can settle that very fast and tell you that it's actually a badly written page but capable of being cleaned up; clicking on "what links here" and finding a thousand respectable internal links would also indicate something, etc.) To say that he tried to explain is a considerable exaggeration. Michael Hardy (talk) 03:52, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Is there some reason you don't thread your comments? Protonk (talk) 04:24, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're asking. Michael Hardy (talk) 07:23, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

As an outside observer, it's clear to me that some pride & self-respect has been infinged on here. I believe this dispute would be an excellent case for the MedCom/MedCab/mediation. (I wish my interpersonal skills were better & I had much more free time, so I could take this on.) If this is not handled carefully, we may end up losing either one or two veteran contributors to Misplaced Pages, & the project will be that much poorer for that. -- llywrch (talk) 19:47, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Michael, given your wikipedia requirement to be civil and assume good faith even in the face of provokation, how exactly did you feel justified in writing bold allcaps 'bullshit' several times? And how exactly did you feel this help the matter instead of making it worse? 198.161.173.180 (talk) 22:39, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Suspected sockpuppetry at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Contrarian Journalism

I'm not sure how to handle this.

I nominated Contrarian Journalism for deletion. One editor supported the nomination, followed by a Keep vote from User:DasV who seems to have been stalking him. But it looks like User:DasV may be the same person as the article's author, who is an SPA - see here.

The evidence is possibly not strong enough for a sockpuppet tag or a checkuser, but it smells very fishy. So, what should I do? andy (talk) 00:34, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

• This is simply absurd. I have been editing on WP since it went on line. Just because someone does not agree with your deletist program does not mean they are the same person as everyone who has written an article that gets tagged for deletion. DasV (talk) 11:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I just deleted most of the article as original research - should be flushed down the shitter. --Cameron Scott (talk) 01:41, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

• So much for your opinion. Too bad everyone in the world doesn't agree with you. DasV (talk) 11:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• DasV (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has caused a remarkable degree of argumentation given his extremely limited editing history. Guy (Help!) 15:31, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

• DasV states the case in a positive affirmative way. You have no idea of my editing history.DasV (talk) 11:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

User:Fillairs has copied the article to their User page. AnyPerson (talk) 23:27, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

is DasV the same person - certainly looks like that. --Cameron Scott (talk) 23:50, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

• Only to someone who wants to believe it. DasV (talk) 11:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Question to Cameron Scott: what is the evidence that DasV is really my sock puppet. This is my first venture into Wiki world and I have to say it's quite surreal. Can't someone see that I'm probably in a completely diferent part of the world to DasV? Is someone going to adjudicate this by looking at some facts? Fillairs (talk) 22:03, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Also cameron: does your suggestion that the article should be flushed down the shitter, conform to Wiki rules regarding civility? Fillairs (talk) 22:11, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

• They are not concerned with facts or civility. DasV (talk) 11:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes - if I had said "you should be flushed down the shitter", then the answer would have been no. --Cameron Scott (talk) 22:17, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

• This is almost interesting:

DasV leaps to the defence of an article written by an SPA, Fillairs

• DasV presented facts which supported the term 'Contrarian Journalism'. Camaron Scott deleted them. DasV (talk) 11:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

DasV probably came across the AfD because he's keeping an eye on User:Flopsy_Mopsy_and_Cottonmouth's edits. Yet he also knows a lot about the subject.

• I could care less about FMC's edits. I know a lot about a lot of subjects. I make a practice to find out about a subject before I recommend it one way or another. DasV (talk) 11:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Fillairs claims one of DasV's edits as his own.

Fillairs now says he's "probably in a completely diferent part of the world to DasV " - how does he know?

The logical conclusion is that either Fillairs has lost the plot while DasV is a knight in shining armour who defends hapless editors against "deletists"; or else Fillairs is either a sockpuppet or meatpuppet of DasV.

• DasV says what he thinks about a subject. He does not wander WP looking for things to delete. DasV (talk) 11:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

The question now to the administrators is: is this sufficient to block either of them for trolling? andy (talk) 22:48, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

• In other words you wish to have any discussion blocked which does not agree with your point of view. Since deletion vastly outnumbers keeps, you would remove anyone who is in the 'keep' camp on any subject. DasV (talk) 11:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Please listen to me I am in Australia and I assume that should be something an Administrator can verify. When you talk about blocking that must mean there is something to indicate where I am posting from. I have no idea where DasV is. I simply assumed that it's a very big world we live in, so the odds that he or she is in the same city as me are quite remote.

As to my losing the plot, I make no claims to ever having had the plot. I really am feeling my way around in the dark and I'm somewhat stunned by the level of suspicion and hostility I'm encountering. If Administrators are watching this, as you imply, I would be grateful if they could verify that I am NOT DasV. I feel the hostility and suspicion has made civil discussion of the issues of my modest paper almost impossible. I made some changes in response to what I slowly understood to be the point of the critical remarks and then floated the possibility of more changes, only to be told that it was all gone, dead and buried, by a process that I still don't quite understand. Speaking as an outsider who has ventured into Wiki, this is not a good advertisement for Wiki. Fillairs (talk) 01:31, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Their purpose is to block me Fillairs. People that don't agree with them are not wanted. DasV (talk) 11:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• • DasV: can you provide me with a quick tip on how I can put this allegation to adjudication? I would just like to see it on the record. I may never venture near Misplaced Pages again after this experience, but I would like the record corrected. I was thinking, however, that I might write an article for the print media entitled "The Wacky World Of Wiki". It's surreal: the use of exclusionary jargon, the rush to judgment and the vicious attacks on someone they don't know at all. I think people in the real world would be intrigued to find out that this nether world of self-invested heroes exists.

Fillairs (talk) 04:02, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• It would be an excercise in futility Fillairs. The article would be speedily deleted. It's quite obvious from our IPs that we are not the same person, to anyone that takes the trouble to look. Misplaced Pages has gone much the way the old newsgroups went with cliques controling the content. It is the policy that is wrong, and that is almost impossible to overcome. Counting votes for 'delete' or 'keep' from people who are unfamiliar with the subject means most articles tagged for deletion will be. Some admins boast of deleting upwards of 2000 articles ... some 5000 pages a day are deleted from WP. Because of policy most material that is kept is simply a reprint from other sources. WP is a handy quick reference that will point you ... usually ... to some actual informational sources, but improving the content is not really most editors intention. Otherwise they would improve articles instead of deleting them ... and deleting any positive information in the discussion. Deleting discussion material is beyond comprehension! It is for these reasons that WP is usually not allowed as a source citation in schools. So much for a great idea.DasV (talk) 04:56, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Conduct unbecoming of an admin

I'm concerned with Gimmetrow - I know that he's been a valuable contributor in the past, and I'm somewhat reluctant to bring this here, but his recent conduct, particularly with regards to this page strikes me as rather short of the bar for an admin. See also the talk page, unilateral changes to a heavily-used template to support his edit war POV without any discussion on the template's talk page, and a particularly vitriolic series of attacks which, to the best of my knowledge, seems to amount to "how dare you use infoboxes and project banners?" I'm genuinely mystified as to where this is all coming from, particularly as this user is a well-known and otherwise respected admin, and has no prior bad blood (AFAIK) with any of these issues or editors. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 20:54, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Gimmetrow informed. Steve 21:12, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the "unilateral changes to a heavily used template", Girolamo invited me to change the template. I consider his actions now, misprepresenting that fact, to be a personal attack. Gimmetrow 21:13, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Note this response to the claim above made elsewhere. Also here. Happy‑melon 21:16, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

This looks like a silly argument that has become personalised. What's the root of all this? I can't believe it started from this edit with no prior history. Guy (Help!) 22:25, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Just looking at this without really commenting on much, this edit (which was part of the history listed), which Gimmetrow labelled as vandalism, was most certainly not such a thing. — neuro 22:55, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

While I'm sure this could have been avoided had Gimmetrow taken a few moments to compose a more diplomatic drawing of our attention to his problem with the {{film}} template, we have as a result started discussing ways in which the template's impact can be reduced for users that have Javascript disabled. But a "silly argument that has become personalised" seems to about sum it up, and I personally don't think any administrator action is required now this incident has been logged. If Gimme is willing to offer any ideas he may have, or bring any further issues to the relevant talk pages, we'll be glad to hear them, and I'm confident we can move on without lasting grudges being formed. That's not what we're here for. The concurrent—yet seemingly separate—issue regarding the infobox at Talk:By the Sword (film)#Infobox is a simple content dispute that should be resolved over there. I hope we're all happy to accept Gimme's edit summary that labelled an edit as vandalism is extenuated by the previous edit's accidental reversion of genuine improvements Gimme made that were unrelated to the dispute. These were subsequently re-inserted. Steve 23:39, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Note this edit - where he accused editors (presumably including myself) of having "tag-teamed to vandalize the article" - I cannot speak for the other editors but my edits are perfectly reasonable and cannot be defined as vandalism in any way. Exxolon (talk) 02:28, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Personal attacks

Personally, I think that repeated, uncalled-for personal attacks ("ass" "moronic") warrant a block, but at the very least I ask that a neutral admin warn Sephiroth that any future violations of WP:NPA will resuilt in Sephiroth being blocked for at least 24 hours. Sephiroth has certainly shown poor conflict resolution skills and should, as an administrator, know that personal attacks like this not only do not help, but completely undermine any respect that might have been due. Yet more personal attacks and insults from the so-called "coordinators" of FILMS project lead to be believe that all the coordinators there probably need to be removed. Gimmetrow 17:01, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

And I think that Gimmetrow's lack of knowledge of what is vandalism is detrimental to his ability to even consider the situation clearly. Seriously, adding an infobox is "vandalism"? The entire conversation at Talk:By the Sword (film)#Infobox frankly shows your lack of knowledge on what vandalism is, along with your perception that everyone's words somehow constituted the words "fuck you". Complain about my word choice all you want; it's irrelevant to how you're suddenly calling for the heads of every coordinator in the film project, which sounds nothing more than a petty attack resulting from you being overriden by established consensus. — sephiroth bcr 20:54, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

You know, for an admin who's been here for nearly three years and has over 30,000 edits I'd expect a little more knowledge of what vandalism, consensus and infoboxes are and a lot less rampant bad faith assuming. Hell - if Gimmetrow is qualified to be an admin then I am as well (and I'm very aware of my limitations and don't consider myself to be good potential admin material). Exxolon (talk) 21:19, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Your comments are now logged for future reference, should you continue. Thank you, Sephiroth and Exxolon. You have been most helpful. Gimmetrow 22:08, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Er - what's that supposed to mean? If I/we continue to comment, you're going to keep notes or tabs on we/us? Exxolon (talk) 00:22, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Uh oh, you guys better watch out. Your comments have been logged. Its a good thing your other comments haven't been logged... oh wait, they all are. Huh. I guess it's not much of a threat after all. Carry on!198.161.173.180 (talk) 23:05, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Getting out of hand

This is getting out of hand. Rather than disengaging from the dispute, having failed to get his way on the infobox Gimmetrow has decided to remove the poster image from it that I recently sourced, uploaded and added to the moved infobox - there is a widespread consensus that film posters fall under WP:FAIRUSE - this is perilously close to a WP:POINT disruption. Can we get some help here please? Or are admins above the law? Exxolon (talk) 00:30, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

If I understand the causu belli correctly, this is a disagreement over the presence of a Fair use image. :::shudder::: -- llywrch (talk) 20:21, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I believe it actually had to do with whether or not the WikiProject is allowed to place their project banner on the article's talk page. The rest is just collateral issues raised as more eyes examined the article and its history. To characterize this as somehow emerging from a fair use disagreement is incorrect, at least as far as I am aware. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 22:26, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Sennen goroshi Caspian Blue

• I seek for administrative actions since Sennen goroshi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) made "racist/personal attacks against me "again" and harassed other editors. This guy has recently been blocked twice for wikistalking, incivility and harassment and disruptive editing as opposed to consensus and BLP policy. Unlike his pledges, he has not been willing to change his attitude. From good faith, I had not reported his violations to AN3/ANI, but he even harassed me. When an admin reported the matter to AN], I did not intentionally left my opinion because he was freaked out. Sadly, my good faith only feeds his disruption further and this analysis is a very acute summary of his behaviors. Given his verbal attacks and behaviors today, I request a longer sanction or “topic-ban” to Korean related articles for him at this time.

• Racist/personal attacks /false accusation: Today after I removed his original research with no source from SeeYa, South Korean singers, he attacked me like "revert vandalism by known anti-Japanese troll" and the anti-Japanese motivation of the previous editor. I don't see any thing of which he accused. So I gave him warings but he further falsely accused me that I'm assuming bad faith, wrongly templating and making personal attacks because of the warnings.. I requested him to explain his attacks but he further accused me of making a threat Intead of answering to my questions, he even lectured about mannors. He further has falsey accused me that I accused everyone of being a "racist" and attacked This is very outrageous because in the article and talk page, I have been attacked by a block-evading banned user, based on my ethnicity and even an admin warned him. I asked about his explanation, but he said he intentionally did and refused to apologize for his behaviors and even made further unpleasant accsuations.

• Conclusion: This are just "current" issues on him so I believe Misplaced Pages does not allow this disruptive to have a privilege to edit to prevent further disruption. This guy clearly acknowledges what “racist attacks", so I guess he takes reponsiblity on the same ground. Thanks--Caspian blue (d) 26 janvier 2009 à 01:17 (CET)

Response

It hardly seems worth responding, but I guess that someone might assume that silence equals acceptance, so here goes...

Calling Caspian Blue, an anti-Japanese editor

1. Caspian Blue is an editor who spends about half his time on wikipedia attempting to promote his own nation (South Korea) at the expense of Japan - numerous edits on ww2 related articles and removal of the Japanese influence on Korean culture - as much as I would call an editor with a pro-life agenda, an anti-abortion - I would call him anti-Japanese, in the same way that he calls me pro-Japanese. If his edits were only promoting his own nations, I might call him pro-Korean, but the great interest he takes in articles relating to Japanese war criminals, comfort women and the ww2 actions of Japan, not only in Korea, but also in other nations seems to point towards being anti Japanese.

2. I find it ironic that he would complain about such a comment, when so many of his edit summaries consist of comments such as rvv by Eichikiyama vandalism by anti-Korean propagandic vandal blanked the sourced material about the assassine of "Empress Myeongseon and rv by Bukubku (talk) whitewash by a Newbie with Pro-Japanese angenda here are some diffs ] ] ] ]

3. Perhaps comments such as the following can shed a little light on what has been said between the two of us in the past

Your pathetic personality

I can' tolerate your impudence any more. You keep insulting me with your dirty mean tongue. Stupid? I think you can't see any context in my comments. You are the meanest and pathetic person in the world I've encountered in my life. I pity you. If you have graduated from any university in the US, you would be required to take several humanistic and social science classes. Did you ever take any class in which Japanese war crimes would be understood among the international society? haha, even students from Japan said they felt shame of their ancestors because they didn't know and just learned with hugely edited textbooks. But you keep denying your origin and then that's making to look you stupid. You might be a Japanese-somewhere citizen. So what? You've produced offensive destructions on Korean-related articles and overly defended cruel Japanese war crime. In addition, you don't have any plausible arguments, then you choose to attack me with personal abuse that shows your true nature. Your English have been not near eloquence but close silliness and shallowness. So dream on!

]

note: the message was made by Caspian Blue's previous account.

Harassment

Again a comment that I find ironic, especially seeing the article given as an example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=SeeYa&action=history

I edited the article and was in a content dispute with other editors - no edit warring, constructive comments made by all involved. Then Caspian Blue decided to participate and reverted me - fair enough, he is entitled to do so. I do take offence to the accusation of harassment, considering that he had never edited that article before, however within about 30mins of me editing it for the first time, he has decided he wishes not only to edit the article, but to revert me.

I don't really mind this, if someone wants to take interest in my edit history, then fine - but for an editor to do so, and then to use that article as an example of harassment seems rather strange.

Attacking Sock Puppets

I made it clear that I considered certain accounts to be sock-puppets - I do not have extensive experience filing sock puppet reports, my only prior reports were rather lacking in evidence/diffs, so I thought if I voiced my suspicions that they might cease their actions without me having to go to the trouble of filing a report.

I did not make personal attacks against these accounts, even when I was sure they were sock-puppets.

To say that I made these comments to remove opponents is absurd - I made these comments and finally made a sock puppet report because these accounts were being used to bypass editing blocks, obtaining false consensus, making personal attacks against me (quote Sennen goroshi FUCK OFF you stinking JAPANESE, u have broken the 3-revert rule TWICE already and VANDALIZING Korean related articles for NO REASON. You are the BIGGEST VANDALIST I HAVE EVER SEEN) and most importantly these accounts were blatant sock-puppets.

For the record because of my report Lakshmix, Wondergirls and Kingka625 have all been indef blocked - these were no innocent victims that I attacked, these were abusive sock accounts, that got indef blocked for their actions.

Bullying

Telling sock-puppets that socks are not allowed is not what I consider bullying.

stating that I have 5 minutes to provide an explanation is bullying

I give you 5 minute to excuse]

coming to my talk page and demanding an apology is bullying ]

Summary

I used an accurate term to refer to an editors bias, I voiced my suspicions about sock-puppets who got themselves indef blocked for sock-puppetry, I tske offence to Caspian Blue acting like a wounded victim, when he has done all of the above on so many occasions - when he accuses someone of sock-puppetry or bias he is the victim, when I accuse someone of the same, I get an ANI report against me.

カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! (talk) 02:53, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

• Can we just topicban these two the hell away from each other, already? While I'll admit this is the first CaspianBlue/SennenGoroshi thread in a few weeks, there has to come a point where we say "Right, enough already, stay away from each other or be invited to leave the project." //roux   03:48, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

As much as it pains me to say this, that is probably a good idea. I don't know exactly what topics you are thinking of, but I would be happy to stay away from Korean articles, if Caspian Blue was topic-banned from Japanese articles - with perhaps the condition that on Japanese related articles, I do not make edits concerning Korea - ie. for example I would not be allowed edit anything to do with the popularity of Korean barbeque on the Japanese food article - and vice versa - ie. Caspian would not be able to mention the popularity of the Korean artist BOA in Japan on the Korean music article. I am not going to act all pure and innocent, I think neither of us are - whether this topicban is temp or indef, it applied equally it might make life easier for myself, caspian and all the admins dragged into this drama. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! (talk) 03:59, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

• Roux, you feel okay if I call him "Anti-Japnaese troll's vandalism motivated by agenda" "twice" just like Sennen goroshi insulted me? I don't respect your too much generosity toward incivility (but you requested a block to somebody for your alleged harassment that nobody agreed). I'm the one suggesting topic ban on him for his behaviors so far. If you do not comment to ANI, you will not see any drama here. That is my honest suggestion for your "tiresome".--Caspian blue 01:45, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

So I'm one of the people involved in the whole SeeYa debate, simply because I was one of the editors. And just from even this, I agree with the above. It's just unnecessary drama. For example, with SeeYa...basically, what could have been fixed up by an experienced editor who had free time stretched out into multiple edits between these two. There was no need for User:Sennen goroshi to name the other editor an "anti-Japanese troll", as SG's edit clearly inserted an additional opinion into an already-opinionated sentence (in other words, it would have been better to remove the questionable sentence entirely). And User:Caspian blue did not need to threaten the other editor with a "5-minute" warning; that's just jumping the gun. I don't know about the tensions between these two, but if this is how it's gonna be like across all the articles that they edit...yeah. Not good. SKS2K6 (talk) 04:33, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Yet again, I feel compelled to agree - the SeeYa article was a content dispute, I was concerned about facts being included without English language citations being present, I argued the case that if there were no English language sources, then the facts were not notable enough for inclusion in English language wikipedia - I may have been right or wrong with that opinion - however it was a mere content dispute than got blown out of proportion by Caspian Blue's arrival - he had never edited the article before, and if I had not edited it I doubt he would have even looked at the article. From the attitude of SKS2K6 above, I have no doubt that if Caspian had not jumped into that article, we could have sorted this out on the discussion page and come to a conclusion that everyone was happy with. Most of my blocks stem from dealings with Caspian Blue and/or articles relating to Korean/Japanese disputes - most of Caspian Blue's numerous blocks stem from dealings with myself and/or articles relating to Korean/Japanese disputes - I have never tried to get around a block with an IP or sock, neither to my knowledge has Caspian - removing the ability for us to interact might be a good solution, as I think I have made some good edits, when not involved in the drama, as has Caspian. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! (talk) 04:44, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

You said you did not make edit war, but change your opinion. You just attacked me with no valid reason. So you're okay to be called "Anti-Korean troll motivated by pro-Japanese agenda". Sennen goroshi, most of your numerous blocks (you were blocked two more than me) are related to not only dealing with me and edit warring/POV pushing on Korea-Japan related articles but also your incivilty (Korean cuisien) and wikistalking. So my proposal for only Sennen goroshi's topic ban is very due cousrse.--Caspian blue 01:45, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Response to Sennen goroshi

This report is originally about Sennen goroshi's ongoing harassments and verbal attacks. I gave him several oppotunities for him to apologize his attacks, but he never did. Although Sennen goroshi tries to divert his behaviors from the main topic, I reply to his answers.

1.Regarding your excuse for the calling

You just did not called me an anti-Japanese editor but vandalism by known anti-Japanese troll and troll motivated by anti-Japanese sentiment after I removed your original reserach without source.

How is my removal of this that makes me "anti-Japanese troll"? I've never heard of such attacks except banned users. However, you instead lectured me about "my manners". Unlike your accusation, I’ve spend more than half of my time creating and editing articles based on reliable “sources” unlike you. Not only Korean/Japan-related articles, but also I've created/edited France/Germany/USA/China/Vietnam related artices while you've created 0 articles. Most of your edits are testing Misplaced Pages and blanked out contents with uncivil edit summaries (crappy, vandal, WTF, bullshit etc). And you pick up on Korean editors. Regarding my nationality (not ethnicity), have ever I said that I’m South Korean? You’re basically wrong on the assumption. Your accusation of me promoting for one side is just your diversion from the main topic; your disruption. You intentionally picked the word, troll and I wanted your apology.

2.Your support for sockpuppeters

You’re intentionally picked "my following responses to them only". Why didn’t you show the previous and preceding diffs? Bukubku called me doing "vandalism", and the others first attacked me more than that. Except, Bukubku, you have sided the mentioned sockpuppeter. You first deleted massive citations without proper reasons and then Amazonfire suddenly appeared to meatpuppet you (in fact, he is a sock of Azukimonka who was blocked one year ago and has been block-evading) Then he later admitted he self-reverted his edits after I pointed out to him.

• The sockpuppeter’s comment rv misleading citation by uncomprehending user
• Sennen goroshi ’’’ Please base your edits on facts not rumours and anti-Japanese bias’’’
• Sennen's sock IP uncited BS removal
• Sennen goroshi
• undue weight. all this crap removed. nothing notable, just a occupying force, showing people who is in charge. enough of the Japan bashing crap please
• undue weight . POV. bias. the usual Japan bashing crap

3.Harassment

Since you brought up my comment after your various attacks one year and three months ago, I fresh up your memory. As soon as you created your account, you harassed people just like mentioned in your first ANI report. You violated WP:BLP as exposing personal information about your real life enemy for a month. (the article and contributions were deleted)

There were clearly edit warring at SeeYa because you first blanked out information on their naming with the reason that the removed one is unsourced and non-notable. Since it was referenced, you blanked out twice. That practice is very contradictory because you’ve used Korean sources many times to back your claims promoting your POV or reverted for other editors (generally proven as sockpuppeters) in dispute with me. You even admitted many times that you did not check Korean sources when reverting. Then, your deletions of the Korean sources from Historiographer's edits are all ironic of your own. Then after your attempts were failed by, you inserted unsourced original research. I’ve editing all Korean-related articles (including pop stars) while you don’t edit Korean entertainers. How could you explain your sudden edits to the article right after Historiographer significantly expand the article? This practice is just same as when you were wikistalking Kuebie.

4.Your lying regarding filing sock reports

I’m curious as to why you lied to an admin that you have no experience of filling it and then exchanged secret emails? Nobody agrees using sockpuppetry abusively. I even reverted to your edit on South Korea. Then all you gotta do is accusing me of assuming bad faith? Even though you’ve had suspicion on them for a month, you had not report him and has been exploiting your "just suspicion" all over the place for one month. You have enough experience with SSP reports (4 cases). Whenever I feel someone is abusing multiple accounts, I gather as much information/diffs as I can, hen file to RFCU or SSP. I wait until the result comes out. If they’re evading after the final confirm and blocks, then re-report to admins. That’s a common course as others do. I’ve seen you've been teasing other users (someone even accused of sockpuppetry). You wait until the accused users lose their temper, then you victimize yourself from verbal attacks. I suggested you to report SPI, and then you followed it. I’m criticizing your lying and behaviros against alleged sockpuppeters. Your way is just simply bullying.

5.Your usage of sock IPs

I'm just amazed at your behaviros towoard the sockpuppeter becuase you even violated 3RR with sock IP to evade block sanction. 203.165.124.61 (talk · contribs) and 59.171.66.109 (talk · contribs). I see another irony of your comment.

6.Rape is a surprise sex

I don't think you should not edit only all Korea and Japan related articles but also even Misplaced Pages because of your titled view. You said Comfort women are Chon prostitutes that should be casually used and popularized. (Chon is a racial slur used only in Japan) You said Korean eating cute puppy flesh is barbaric. You even said "Rape is a surprise sex". At that time, you also gave me following comments like a "wish for me to die" and "mocking my English and intellect".

• how people with limited skills manage to perform simple tasks such as remembering not to stop breathing
• I will have to learn Pidgin English in order to communicate with some users'
• I think the whole communicating with adults scenario is a little beyond him.

• More recently, LMAMF ("Lxck My Axx Mother Fxxker")

As soon as I spot "your sockpuppetry" and said to you don’t blindly blanking cited information, you gave me the slur. I’m bemused at your ability to divert attention from your verbal attacks and to be out of any charge for them even though you report your opponents blocked with similar degree of insulting.

I don't believe your so-call contribution with “blanking”/”wikistalking”/harassment are improving Misplaced Pages. All of your contributions are just “disruption”.--Caspian blue 00:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Wow... I mean... 'Rape is a suprise sex'? I just... I don't even know where to begin... That is so wrong from any angle.. I think that needs to be on a t-shirt. 198.161.173.180 (talk) 23:10, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Topicban proposal

I'm guessing we're all sick of the Sennen/Caspian show, and various attempts at dispute resolution seem to have been fruitless. But my understanding is that both do contribute useful edits. So I'm proposing that for six months:

1. Caspian Blue is topicbanned from all articles relating to Japan, and all editing concerning Japan within other articles and projectspace, broadly construed;
2. Sennen Goroshi is topicbanned from all articles relating to Korea, and all editing concerning Korea within other articles and projectspace, broadly construed;
3. Sennen Goroshi and Caspian Blue are permanently banned from interacting with each other on their talkpages, except for neutrally-worded or templated notifications as required by policies and community norms;
4. Caspian Blue and Sennen Goroshi are encouraged to avoid interacting with each other at article talk pages and projectspace pages (especially AN and ANI), to comment solely on content when avoiding each other is impossible, and to invite a neutral admin to step in if the other one crosses the line, and not respond themselves;
5. Sennen Goroshi and Caspian Blue are specifically forbidden from starting any new AN, ANI, WQA, or similar threads about each other. Should such a thread be needed, they are required to find a neutral admin to handle the issue;
6. All of the above to be enforced by escalating blocks as per normal practice, which will reset the topicban duration (for the 'offender' only, not both).

Thoughts? //roux   05:12, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

That's very unfair. Please take the time to look at the claims of BOTH Caspian and Sennen above. It makes no sense to ban Caspian for making this report. If you just look at the contribution history of both editors you'll see that Sennen's makes little to no significant contributions to Japan related articles but systematically goes through all the Korea related articles engaging in POV pushing and engaging revert wars in dozens of Korea related articles. Caspian does not engage in such systemic POV pushing in Japan related articles and his contributions have been far more diverse. Just banning editors because of the constant conflict without looking at the details and cause of the conflicts will only exacerbate the problem.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 22:24, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so, and nor does anyone else--anyone neutral, that is--who has contributed to this discussion. The fact of the matter is that we are all sick and bloody tired of seeing both Sennen Goroshi and Caspian Blue's names come up around here. For a while (sort of November-December), there was a new thread either started by or about Caspian Blue every week, or so it seemed. Enough disruption is enough. Misplaced Pages functions the same way a bar does: unless there is absolutely overwhelming evidence that one person is innocent and the other is solely at fault, we give both of them a spanking and kick them out. That is precisely what is being discussed here; both are at fault for the disruption, and so forcibly removing them from each other ends the disruption without us having to deal with yet another tedious episode of the Sennen & Caspian Show (Now With More Accusations!). //roux   04:27, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Look the edition of page Talk:Yaeko Taguchi. Caspian Blue told like that rv by John Smith's (talk) the woman is almost unkno in South Korea. However, look the page Yaeko Taguchi, most sources are South Korean News Paper Chosun Ilbo. 朝鲜日报中文网 is Chosun Ilbo Chinese version. 조선일보 is Chosun Ilbo Korean version. Caspian blue lose his mind things related with Japan. Now I am topic-banned by Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs), so I cannot edit the page, even if Caspian blue's words is not truth. So I approve of his topicban. And some neutral person edit the page.--Bukubku (talk) 07:45, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Frankly speaking, Bukubku and Sennen's edit is generally tend to POV about Korean articles. Especially, pastfor some time past, Bukubku raised some problem such as Empress Myeongseong, few of Korean Kings' posthumous name changed over the transom and Edit warring, Caspian file a protest against to him. So, may be Bukubku seem to be hostile attitude to Caspian Blue. His statement is based on some articles and claims. This articles only news articles and not received opinion. In spite of that, Bu and Sennen excessive insist its true. Therefore, It is not only wrong attitude against to the other user, but also point of view edit. So, I rather oppose to your view. --Historiographer (talk) 13:13, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Bukbuku, you forgot to mention about User:PC's previous reverts of your exceeding assessement "triple". The women is "almost unknown" to the public, that means she is not famous just like Kim Hyun Hee(no rating) and Choi Jin-sil(mid-importance). So she is not notable enought to be rated "high". I suggest you to read WikiProejct Korea's guidline. Since you want to get me topic-banned just like you, I bring a present for you.

Talk:Imo_Incident#Massacre and No Original research, Talk:Empress_Myeongseong#Misusage of primary sources by User:Bukubku.

You've misused primary sources over multiple articles and inserted "origianl research" so many times, and you have admitted your practice also "many times". I've patientionally waited for your English translation of your used sources and regardless of your attack against me, you disappointed me very much. Do't complain about Future's saction on you.--Caspian blue 01:32, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Sennen and Caspian are both excellent editors that for some reason tend to turn stupid when they have to deal with each other. I've gone through both of their histories and aside from a few minor incidents, either one is a generally reasonable editor that has made multiple, excellent contributions. This is the second time now I've had to go through page upon page of past edits becaue of their fights, so I'm all for flipping a coin and indef banning the loser. However, since that idea generally hasn't gained consensus in the past, I will settle for the idea of the topicban proposal. Trusilver 07:59, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I dont beleive that 6months is a fair proposal as both editors do spend a lot of time correcting and improving articles. I would say a three month ban from both Japan and Korean articles for both as sometimes their arguements can stop other editors producing good input.--CorrectlyContentious 10:23, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

As much as the devil inside of me might get a real thrill from seeing the editing rights of mine being decided with a coin toss, the sensible editor that lurks somewhere inside of me tells me that it would be too much of a risk to take - so assuming that I am not allowed to challenge editors to 1v1 on Quake III Arena for the right to edit, I would not whine too much if we were both topic banned - as it has been pointed out we are both capable of contributing to wikipedia and despite a topic ban limiting the scope of articles we are able to edit, if we both spend the time we spend making/dealing with ANI reports on actual editing, it might actually increase the amount of constructive editing that we do. I would also state that I would at no time contact any other editor through E-mail etc regarding Caspian's edits, as Caspian has voiced concern in the past regarding me contacting editors by Email in relation to articles we are editing. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! (talk) 16:45, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I must point out that you have requested three sockpuppeters(Eichikiyama, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, Lucyintheskywithdada), and others to send you Emails just right after I had discussion with them (Lucy's talk page is deleted). Your following is also your typical "wikistalking". I must state that you also have time to exchange Emails with admins secretely for your never-ending-filing SPI until my suggestion to file it. You're also lying about me again. I did not contact editors to discuss regarding "you" at all. You're making another false allegation based on your "wishful thinking". --Caspian blue 01:32, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support - the proposal as written. one minor clarification, I usually take 'broadly construed' to mean talk pages also. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 20:21, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

• Comment to Roux You must forget the fact that I was attacked by him unreasonably, so I requested his apology to me, but he even mocked me further with false accusation. Also your claim that "all measures" are tried"? If I knew that you're intervening here, I might have reported him to RFC/User conduct not here, but it is a new thing to learn. When he has been sleuting, I felt somewhat relieved because his over-one year-wikistaking/harassing me are significantly reduced (not stopped because he stilled followed me to some articles beyond his interests). However, he moved onto another Korean editor just as his usual habit. That’s why I come here for administrative intervetion. However, you’re suggesting evaluating me in the same ground with Senenn goroshi? I certainly acknowledge that you’re sick of anything related to me, but not all. So please do not exaggerate your “own feeling” and “jumping to your own conclusion” without close investigation. Regardless of your own feeling, if there are repeated problems that can not be resolved by discussion between involved parties, here is the place for them. Please do not try to divert the main topic on Sennen goroshi’s behaviors. --Caspian blue 01:32, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• I guess the subtext of my topicban wasn't clear. I'll be more clear: ENOUGH DAMN FIGHTING ALREADY. I don't think anyone here cares who did what first after the other one did something because someone else did this but hey that other guy did that allegation wikistalker incivil false j'accuse sockpuppet RAWR RAWR RAWR. Frankly, we could just throw your posts and Sennen Goshi's into a Markov generator, give it random diffs, and get the same level of meaningful content. The point of proposing a topicban is to get you both to STOP this nonsense and go contribute. Sennen has been completely open to the topicban and has issued a mea culpa regarding his own behaviour. It would behoove you to do the same and gracefully acknowledge that your behaviour is sorely lacking and that a topicban which keeps the two of you away from each other is a good thing for the project. Everyone who has commented on the topicban thus far has supported it, which should be a really giant clue smacking you upside the head. Enough is enough. I very strongly suggest that you agree to the same conditions that Sennen Goroshi is agreeing to. Sennen is showing a willingness to permanently end this disruption. You are not. I suspect that the community will eventually take a dim enough view of your refusal to end the ongoing disruption and revoke your editing privileges.//roux   04:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Because this report is initially about Sennen goroshi's behaviors (as you missed) and given history, the seemingly willingness is his tactic whenever he was on the corner. You missed to read that he even lied about me regarding "email". He never keeps his pledges to editors/admins not to wikistalk or harass me any more. I'm the one who should say "Enough is Enough". I really want to appreciate your "intervention" if you gave "proper proposal" or helpful comment for what has been occurred. In the sense, your proposal is very disadvantageous for only me: My edit numbers are much more than his. Much of his edits are "wikistalking me" and I have to deal with on going matters in Japan/Korea related articles. I really suggest that you're stop coming to ANI because I've seen you talked a lot "Enough is enough" and proposed "ban editors!" aside from my matters and expressed your "sickness" over dramas brought up here. why bo? I'm waiting for others comments. I also don't like double standard.--Caspian blue 04:21, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Typically, Caspian, you are now attacking the messenger and not the message. I think that speaks for itself. Enough fighting, enough sniping, either grow up and walk away from the dispute or have the community force you to do so. The choice is yours. //roux   04:26, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Typically, Roux, you don't realize your own incivility and attack. I must say that I strongly have offended by your comment from the start. If you want to help others, please be nice and neutral. Your first reply to me here is offensive as well. If you're sick about reports related to Sennen and me, then you can ignore it. Nobody requests you to do so. I said I'm waiting for others comment. --Caspian blue 04:36, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of seeing ANI/AN cluttered nearly every week with some dispute between Koreans and Japananese editors over minor issues. These frequent frivolous requests have tired the patience of administrators to the point that they rarely receive replies for a good reason: they hold no basis. I think that at this time, it is best to consider a topic ban, and the suggestion above is a topic ban that I support. seicer | talk | contribs 04:40, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks for the input. However, this is essentially "NOT" about Japan-Korea disputes, but the user's behaviors. I don't comment here for a while.--Caspian blue 04:48, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I have an idea, which may seem bizarre at first. Caspian, try speaking kindly rather than with accusations and anger. Yeah, yeah, I know, he did it first, or yada yada, whatever: just try it. Hurling accusations at each other will get you nothing but more anger and accusations. Would it hurt you to attempt to be peaceful? Would you "lose face"? Do you not want to stop until your perceived "enemy" is "defeated"? Or would you rather be showing strength, to try to be a peacemaker for once? Try it. "I promise not to say anything deliberately hurtful to you again." Antandrus (talk) 04:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Are you new to WP:DRAMA around here? Shooting first and then asking questions later is the norm. I say, regardless of how well they edit elsewhere, this disruption is enough. I support the proposed topicbans above (you know, the point of this section) and ask that these two characters first try voluntarily disengaging from each other. If they aren't even willing to do that, we've have to force them to disengage from everybody. I suggest another new section for a discussion on the topicban and if they interrupt again to rant on each other, short blocks so that the community can actually work on something productive. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:24, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

As it stands, the proposed action is a topicban - which I agree with, due to my agreement, I will not be responding to any accusations or issuing any of my own. From prior experience I doubt if a nicely worded "please try to stay away from eachother" is likely to work. It sucks hugely that I don't have enough confidence in my ability to interact with the other editor concerned to say that no action is required, but I do know myself better than anyone else does, and I have had more experience interacting with Caspian Blue than most other editors. As sad as it is, we clash - hugely. Left to edit without the obvious distractions that we give eachother we can probably contribute more than we currently do. I think Caspian has a lot more to contribute than I do when it comes to Korean articles - and as someone who has lived in Japan for a long time, I have more to offer on Japanese articles than he does. What we both need to understand is that we are not having the god-given right to edit certain wikipedia articles taken away from us, we will just lack the privilige to edit certain articles for a while. We will probably come out of whatever period this topicban is, with a far more constuctive edit history for the topicban period, than in any other period of our editing history. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! (talk) 14:17, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• So, can we wrap this up now? I see no real objections to the topicban from uninvolved editors. //roux   04:35, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I havn't read enough to endorse, decline, or enact - but I do want to say the Misplaced Pages as bar analogy makes sense, and after glancing at the total length of this thread, I had the terrible urge to ban *someone* for sheer amount of arguments/bickering generated.--Tznkai (talk) 04:40, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

If you need to scratch the itch, you could ban me for the time period of a sandwich. I'm peckish... //roux   04:57, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Support topic ban only for Sennen goroshi I love K-POP, girls's singer group and Korean history, so I edit related articles. I was surprised by Sennen goroshi because he suddenly followed me and erased information about SeeYa. I provided Korean references because I can find Korean sources easier. But he removed all Korean sources too and said "those are not English sourse". He did not edit the article until I edit. I think this is stalking. He may not know about the trio, but his insertion without source is not explainedd. I must say that Sennen goroshi should not attack Caspian blue by saying "troll". He has obviously strong anti-Korean because he removed inportant inforamtion for Japanese side. He does not talk about his edits much. I do not agree that Sennen goroshi made a good contribution. I don't understand why Roux suggests Caspian blue is also topic banned because he reported Sennen goroshi's attack and harassment to me. Roux's proposal is not jus wrong for solution.--Historiographer (talk) 12:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah and I am sure most editors involved who are sympathetic with the Korean side of things would agree with you (hence yourself, Melonbarmonster and Caspian being the only people against the topic ban for the both of us) and most editors involved who are sympathetic with the Japanese side of things would have an opposite desire. But the admins who are free from links to Japan or Korea support the topicban going both ways. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! (talk) 14:29, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

In the same sense, Roux is also an invloved party (not directly though but our history are based), so I don't think he should not bring the "poison well approach" to examine the real problem.--Caspian blue 21:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Do us all a favour, okay? Address your own shortcomings and stop attacking others who point them out to you. It takes two to tango, and Sennen Goroshi is your favourite dance partner. If you're capable of doing so, address the topicban that we are here to discuss and stop bickering with other people. //roux   21:27, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Do not attack me further. You've done enough.--Caspian blue 21:32, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Third party comment on Sennen Goroshi

This is not a mutual conflict and Caspian and Sennen are not on equal footing here. I know that for the admins here this KOrea/Japan bickering is exhausting but please take a closer look. Both editors have been involved in these Korea/Japan disputes. That is true. However, Caspian does not stalk others' edits and engage in POV disputes on Japan related articles! Sennen Goroshi on the other hand systematically engages in injecting Japan POV in more than a dozen Korea related articles constantly instigating revert wars and POV wars on a regular basis. Sennen Goroshi's contribution are almost exclusively on fighting POV battles on Korea related articles. Caspian's contributions are far more diverse.

Instead of trying to dismiss this conflict with a broad brush and banning both editors, please take a look at the claims reported above. Unfairly banning editors for fighting without hashing through the details of the conflict will discourage good faith editing and punishes those who try to follow the rules while incentivising those who are engaging in gamesmanship and POV pushing. That's just poor wiki policy.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 22:17, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Wow, that is a pretty damning comment from an neutral third party. At least it would be if it hadn't been made by one of the parties heavily involved in the Japan/Korea disputes. Considering the amount of blocks this user has received on his account ] and on his previous account ] , I propose that his name is added to the topicban proposal with the same restrictions that are proposed for Caspian Blue - Melonbarmonster probably has a lot to contribute when it comes to Korean articles, however the amount of blocks against him makes it quite clear that he has the same sort of issues that Caspian Blue and myself have when editing any article that have a Korean/Japanese dispute. カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! (talk) 03:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

That seems premature. Most blocks are from 2007, followed by a whole lot of nothing until two in August 2008--five months ago, now--and nothing since. Dredging up ancient block history is relatively pointless. //roux   04:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, despite his previous history there has been little drama connected to Melonbarmonster recently カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! (talk) 14:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Roux, you're also not a neutral party from the start. When Sennen gorosh was obviously blocked for one-week for his wikistalking/harassment/incivility against me and Kuebie (which report was ironically reported by a sockpuppter blocked by my RFCU and whom Sennen goroshi supported to attack me), you rather said negative comments against me. You and I have a (unpleaseant) history, so I don't think your suggestion and intention are not from impartiality.--Caspian blue 20:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm quite neutral, thanks; I think you're both a pair of nationalistic nitwits who would rather waste everyone's time with endless bickering and accusations rather than work on problems. Until now, that is. Sennen has indicated a very clear willingness to end all the disruption. Why haven't you? Sennen has agreed to the topicban, because it will end the disruption. You should do the same. //roux   20:55, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Roux. you're clearly not as a neutral editor at all as other two editors here already voiced out on your proposal. Ever since we encountered and interactecd unpleasantly (your abadonment of the meditation was disappointing as well), you've commented negatively "only" agaisnt me without investing your time to find real problems. I think you're proceeding "poison well approach" on this issue. Since you exaggerate your "own" feeling" and speak out loudly, everybody who do not know well the issue stop digging to find problems. As much as you're sick and tired of seeing my name or Sennen goroshi, I'm tired of your mere unhelpful expression of your irratioan. Do not also exaggerate that every remedies are tried. You only have left your thoughts on "two cases" relating to Sennen and I so far including this one, so do not exaggerate your though. If there would be a remedy for us, "civility" sanction, not the unreasonable extansion to all articles of Korea and Japan. You have not even researched on the past and have no idea of Korea and Japan. In almost every articles regardling Korea and Japan, the countries are related to each other. Thus, your proposal is essentially to block me to edit all most all articles concerning cultur/history/geography/politics/society/ etc. You have to show that I'm editing wrongly. If I had content disputes, I don't bring it to ANI. Your proposal is "shut up, don't make more noises". As you also keep ignoring that Sennen was reported for his behaviros, and given his recent consecutive blocks, he wants to "share" the whole charge with me. That is the only way that he can divert attention from the issue on him. You have also emphasized that Sennen is following your proposal as if your belief that your proposal is reasonable and fair. That is not.--Caspian blue 21:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

"shut up, don't make more noises" is exactly what I am saying here, and it seems that Tznkai agrees. The topicban has now been enacted, please abide by it. Cheers. //roux   21:32, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Dont' worry, Roux. What a nice job you have done from "such alleged neutrality". I would bear in mind that I don't follow your past step.--Caspian blue 22:02, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Options going forward

My eyes burn, but I've read through more of this nonsense enough to see this is an intractable personal conduct dispute where both main parties have shown their inability to "get it." The generation of material here is enough to show the larger interest in arguing rather than any sort of peace. We (the larger community) are not your battleground and we (the administrators on behalf of the larger community) are mandated to control the behavior. These I think, are the options:

• I can enact the topic ban on behalf of the uninvolved administrators as described above.
• We can punt the issue to a pair of RfC/U - which will be vicious, nasty, and a waste of everyone's time, at the end of which people will probably end up banned.
• We can this at ArbCom, which will probably send it back to to RfC/U and blah blah blah. Let me assure you, this ends well for no one.
• Caspian Blue and Sennen goroshi can convince us that somehow, none of this is needed.

It should be said, before anyone tries, I am unlikely to be convinced that only one of these editors is disruptive - and I do not care which one is more disruptive - both are past the threshold.--Tznkai (talk) 15:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

A note on the topic ban - I am not at this point prepared for an indefinite topic ban on both - I would prefer something measured in weeks or months.--Tznkai (talk) 15:14, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I figured six months should be enough to break the habit. I pondered adding in a clause that says "once this topicban is lifted, if either of you returns to the sniping and arguing, you will be indefblocked and community banned immediately," but figured that was just my lack of coffee talking. //roux   16:41, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I think my opinion on this is very clear, I will not contest any decision to topicban the both of us. I have no interest in this drama being discussed any further here or anywhere else, I just want it over and done with カンチョーSennen Goroshi ! (talk) 15:27, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree with this proposal to topic ban Caspian and Sennen. While I fully understand the annoyance that their constant bickering has caused, there needs to be a clearer violation of rules or warned misbehavior. You can't just ban them because they argue a lot and annoyingly make reports on these boards. Please consider the possibility that Sennen and Caspian have genuine and good faith disagreements with each other on these issues. You shouldn't punish editors for good faith disagreements, only the manner of their disagreement. That is why we have rules and principles that editors have to follow in engaging in good faith disagreements.

In this case, Caspian has filed a report. If his report is invalid, then his report should be thrown out. I don't see how an editor who files a report can be blocked even if the report is seen as being invalid by the admins here. How is filing a report on this board punishable behavior? I'm sorry but constant fighting or constant bickering is not punishable behavior in and of itself. The real issue should be whether rules have been violated in the process of their constant conflicts.

Please take the time to do this right instead of topic banning Caspian for filing an incidents report and Sennen for being reported.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 17:39, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Support a mutual topic ban as defined by Roux in his points 1-6 above, with a duration of six months. The intent of the ban is to calm the dispute. Acceptance of the ban by both editors would be a contribution to wiki-peace. I would encourage Tznkai to go ahead and enact the ban. EdJohnston (talk) 17:46, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

There are ways of calming the dispute as it pertains to relevant articles. Punishing editors for having good faith disagreements or filing an incident report on this board is hardly punishable behavior. That's just bad policy.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 18:46, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Those ways haven't worked. And since you don't seem to be paying attention: the reason for this is that posts involving Caspian or Sennen or both are an almost weekly occurrence here. Tznkai summed it up best: this can either go to RFC/U (which will drag on and be awful), ArbCom (which will drag on and be awful), or we can take the simplest and most direct route: topicban both of them the hell away from each other and watch all the disputes disappear. This isn't 'good faith disagreements', it's 'endless bickering and poking each other without any reasonable purpose or outcome in sight.' It's not 'punishment for filing an incident report', it's 'enough of these damn threads every damn week already.' Several avenues have been tried, and behaviour doesn't change. Caspian wouldn't even engage in a goodfaith MedCab without attacking the other person involved. As someone else said above, Caspian and Sennen are generally decent editors who turn massively stupid as soon as they come into contact with each other. The solution, therefore, is to remove that contact. I am terribly sorry that the proposed solution doesn't allow you to get a boot in to an editor you don't like, and I am really sorry that the proposed solution makes the heinous mistake of treating two disruptive people the same, but welcome to reality. That's how it works here; it takes two to tango and they will be dealt with the same. //roux   19:40, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Six months will pass and other editors besides Caspian or Sennen will come and go. The best way to discourage these inane disputes is to objectively enforce the rules consistently and fairly. Getting frustrated and topic banning out of personal frustration is poor policy and will only incentivize gaming and trolling from bad editors and punishes editors who make the effort to follow the rules. Proper distinctions have to be made. I don't mean to engage in sarcasm and frustrations with you. We're all here voluntarily right? Thanks for reading.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 19:54, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The final nail in the coffin is Caspian blue spending his time attacking roux instead of anything productive, or even an affirmative defense. Request for topic ban Accepted, Caspian Blue and Sennen goroshi are restricted as described by the above topic ban for the duration of six months.--Tznkai (talk) 21:27, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Tznkai, I was attacked by Roux, so I defend myself. I believe that the proposal is stemmed from certain history with me, I point out. As I said, if remedy is "civility saction", I'm greatly accepted and follow. Because my report has nothing to do with "content disputes". --Caspian blue 21:37, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Latest incident in Sennen and Caspian dispute

PLEASE take a look at this latest spat which has culminated in this report. It's an obscure article about a Korean pop group SeeYa. Sennen shadowed User:Historiographer's edits to this article and started deleting Historiographer's edits removing and undoing a lot of uncontroversial edits that Historiographer had worked on for some time. If this isn't harassment by Sennen, I don't know what is.

This triggered a revert war as you can see here] with Sennen injecting POV such as "but unlike some other Asian musicians such as Ayumi Hamasaki they have had no success outside of their own country."] and reverting Historiographer's references]. This in turn caused Caspian and others to revert Sennen which culminated in this report and our current situation.

Sennen engages in this type of behavior chronically. If you look at his contributions history], you'll see that Sennen systematically goes through Korea related articles doing this. Caspian does engage Sennen in a lot of these conflicts but he DOES NOT systemically go through Japan related articles instigating these edit wars as Sennen does]. The nature of their involvement in these disputes is fundamentally different and they should not be treated the same.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 19:17, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's from three days ago. Which is, coincidentally, the day before this whole thread was started. I think we're all aware, thanks. //roux   19:34, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I meant that this dispute was what lead to this report being filed. I'm not trying to give you a hard time but sincerely, I don't see how Caspian and Sennen's roles in this dispute can be seen as being the same.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 19:39, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, one has to wonder why that is. You're ignoring the fact--again, one has to wonder why--that this dispute has been ongoing for months and months, and this is merely the proverbial straw. //roux   19:43, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not ignoring your point. And I think this incident clearly shows the anatomy of how these disputes are fueled. As annoying as it is, someone has to step in and figure out the substance of these disputes and enforce the rules. Objectivity and impartiality will kill the constant bickering. Ignoring the substance of these disputes and only seeing this in ad hominem terms will exacerbates the problem in the long run.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 19:59, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• Roux, I've brought up not "content issue", but "behaviroal issues". However, you seem to ingore the fact and exaggerate your "own" feeling stemmed from our history.(your abadonment of meditation for your "retirement).--Caspian blue 20:53, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Persistent incivility by user:Dicklyon

user:Dicklyon has been persistently engaging in incivility against me (and a host of other editors). user:Dicklyon has been blocked three times for edit warring on this and other topics , as well as topic-banned for inappropriate behavior on other topics . His edits below are grossly inappropriate and are conducive neither to productive discussion nor dispute resolution. His continued problematic behavior, despite repeated sanctions, does not suggest any serious intent ever to moderate his behavior. His edits below follow a failed attempt to delete Feminine essence theory of transsexuality (which I created), a failed attempt to move the same page (started immediately afterward), and an RfC which also failed to bring any uninvolved editor to agree with him.

After I indicated on a talk page that I am a colleague of one of the people whom I cited on the main page:

"If your "disclosure" were more complete, you'd note that Ray Blanchard made up the "feminine essence theory" in these so-called reliable sources, by listing an unattributed set of "tenets" of it that he then proceeded to knock down. Nobody believes the theory, nor likely many of its so-called tenets, and he knows it, since they're a bit absurd. His reason for putting it forward to knock it down is obvious: to prop up his controversial Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence theory of transsexuals. So to call this a theory, to help your boss spread his nasty propaganda, by writing this horribly misleading article, is the worse kind of WP:Conflict of interest."

After an uninvolved editor asked Dicklyon's what information he was trying to gain from his RfC on that page:

"Well, I was hoping you'd read some of comments, see what Cantor is doing here, and be as appalled by it as I was. It's really quite vicious to present this as if it was a theory held by transsexuals, just for the purpose of saying what a stupid idea it is. That what Cantor does here, just as his boss Blanchard did in the real world. The appearance of sourcing disguises what he has done. I guess it was unrealistic to expect someone not familiar with the controversy to be able to help, though."

After the near-unanimous defeat of the AfD that he himself proposed for the page::

"Oppose – It would be nuts to move this content to a place where a real article could go. It's better to leave it here as a monument to James Cantor's and WhatamIdoing's collusion to have some "fun" with wikipedia."

Although Dicklyon will sometimes apologize for his behavior, the clear lack of change after such apologies does not suggest sincerity. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
— James Cantor (talk) 02:29, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

To repeat my earlier point about user:Dicklyon's clear lack of intent to change his behavior, after notified him on his talk about that I made the above incident report (using the ANI template), he repeated his behavior on the same page:

Following my indicating that I believed his edits to violate WP:civility:

"It's about your article and your editing behavior, which I repeat I find appalling and vicious; not to mention WP:COI."

and

"In fact, nobody adhere's to such a theory, as it was made up by Dreger and Blanchard just for the purpose of attacking transwomen; Cantor reports to Blanchard and does his dirty work on wikipedia."

Permitting such behavior is never in the best interests of WP.
— James Cantor (talk) 03:09, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Dick has been showing similar behavior at Eric Lerner and WP:FRINGE. There's an active arbitration enforcement thread here that seems to have petered out due to lack of interest from admins. Of his most recent disruptive edits in this area, IMO this edit takes the cake, where he claims that Arno Penzias, recipient of the Nobel Prize in physics, is not a physicist. He seems unable to comment on the content, not the contributor, and often follows editors who have vexed him to other pages. Skinwalker (talk) 03:10, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think my separate editing disputes with ScienceApologist are in any way related or analogous, nor do they represent any misbehavior. If you disagree, please give me a clue; I have not had any edit pointed out as disruptive or uncivil by anybody there. Dicklyon (talk) 03:26, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Nothing was pointed out as disruptive or uncivil? Have you read in any detail the arbitration enforcement thread and the responses? Skinwalker (talk) 03:30, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Obvoiusly I discounted ScienceApologist himself, as he's just trying to get me banned; Shell didn't get back to me on my request for any indication of what I did wrong, and PhilKnight and you basically said I shouldn't refer to ScienceApologist's SPOV or editing methods in my comments or edit summaries. I'm still unclear on whether anyone has anything specific that they think I did that was inappropriate, as these are just ways of saying I should stop fighting with ScienceApologist; but it takes two, so tell him, too. Now back to the present... Dicklyon (talk) 03:35, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Every time someone has presented your problematic behavior and other editors/admins have said "stop that", you respond with "stop what?". This is getting silly. Its not appropriate for you to attack other editors that you are in a dispute with - in fact, its not appropriate to attack other editors at all. Learn to play nice or get out of the sandbox. Shell 03:54, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Dicklyon is not behaving very well but I sort of understand his frustration -- the Feminine essence theory of transsexuality article goes way beyond what its sources justify. The term was invented in a commentary published in April 2008, and nothing has yet been published in response to that commentary, so really all the article should properly be able to say is that Blanchard said XXX a few months ago and no reactions to his ideas have yet appeared. Looie496 (talk) 03:11, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it is mishaving to call James Cantor's edits and behavior on this particular page as appalling and vicious. It also baffles me that he is allowed to continue to push his boss's vicious transphobic attacks via wikipedia; I didn't have much luck taking him to COI in the past, but probably it's time to try again. Dicklyon (talk) 03:26, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

ScienceApologist and Skinwalker (and now, apparently, still more editors just two doors down here) emphasize my point regarding Dicklyon's multiple prior blocks: Dicklyon's behavior is not limited to me, nor to other editors, nor to any specific group of pages.

Looie496 is completely entitled to disagree with me, of course, but the purpose of WP:AN/I is to discuss/intervene regarding editor behavior, not page content. I do invite user:Looie496 to make content edits and suggestions at the page and its talkpages themselves.

— James Cantor (talk) 03:58, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I welcome a review of my block history and editing history by anybody. Compare it to User:MarionTheLibrarian, the name James Cantor used to attack the bio of my friend Lynn Conway while hiding his identity as one of the principals in the real-world dispute with her. The current issues are a contiuation of his essentially single-purpose campaign on wikipedia, to polish the reputation of his academic sexologist friends and boss and to push thir views that have been characterized by many in the real world as transphobic. If anyone is willing to look into this, the result will certainly be welcome. As to the other disputes that I get into as an active wikipedia editor, I am happy to have them examined, one at a time or all at once; I make no claim to being the most congenial or whatever, but I stick to policy and push back on abuse. Dicklyon (talk) 04:11, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I would like to add my $0.02 to this I even went as far as to open a userconduct RfC on him and his behavior Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Dicklyon. He has made more of his little comments than I care to hunt down diff's for. He has been given a pass for acting the way he has for far too long. Nothing much has been done with this(I am not sure what more needs to be done before it will go through). Someone needs to send Dicklyon a message that his behavior is not acceptable. Or else he will keep on keeping on. Thus leaving no recourse but response in kind. --Hfarmer (talk) 01:33, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Don't forget that it was you who were blocked for incivility, toward me. If you have a complaint about my behavior, please make it more explicit so we can tell what the issue is. Your RfC was found to be "inappropriate and very counterproductive" and I saw nothing there worth responding to. Dicklyon (talk) 06:22, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Comment. This easily has got to be one of the more bizarre and complex ANIs I've stumbled across. The core issue, besides generally incivility of quite a few editors, is the propagation of some rather cutting edge research, Misplaced Pages's that is, on sexuality of transgender people. Newsflash, the jury is still out. Feminine essence theory of transsexuality does seem rather like we're on the very cutting edge leading the effort to publish material when we already have Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence theory, Autogynephilia, Homosexual transsexual called "Homosexual gender dysphorics", The Man Who Would Be Queen and BLPs including J. Michael Bailey, Ray Blanchard and likely others. Like a B-movie ooze that smothers all opposition this content just seems to creep along on one article after the next. I'm not sure there are any easy answers here but this propagating by, what does seem to be a strong and persistent minority, that this information is widely accepted and embraced seems dubious. Perhaps Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Medicine can help as there is no end to sourcing from medical sounding sources. If these theories are widely discredited then why do we have so much material on them? I may just be posting in vain but to see another of these articles pop up seems like a bad prospect for an encyclopedia. -- Banjeboi 07:02, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing. At the risk of seeming incivil, I repeat that they made this new article for the brilliant fun of it. Unbelievable gall is what it is. Dicklyon (talk) 07:26, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

As to "these theories" and "widely discredited", there's a lot of confusion right there. This theory (Feminine essence theory of transsexuality) appears only in the paper by Blanchard that both proposes it and discredits it. None of the other sources are about this theory; that's part of what's dishonest about how the article was written. As for the other Blanchard theory, it's NOT discredited within the academic sexologist community so much, but it certainly did stir up a fight with the transwomen. Dicklyon (talk) 07:31, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Banjeboi: "Widely discredited" perhaps but not among transsexuals ourselves. ""Feminine essence theory of transsexualism" is just a overcomplex, fancy name for an idea so simple a 7 year old knows it. The idea is called "brain sex". Read "The theory that prenatally established brain and CNS structures determine innate gender feelings and gender identity." by Lynn Conway or Searches for "brain Sex" on Jokestress's website "tsraodmap.com. It appears about 8 times. A similar search on lynnconway.com gets a much greater number. The basic idea is that male to female transsexuals have female brains in male bodies and thus are in essence female. Hence one can understand why one writter could call it "feminine essence theory of transsexualism". Judging the article by it's name is not good practice. A name change was proposed and oppose won (I supported a name change). This is not the place to retry those issues.--Hfarmer (talk) 10:56, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

The point of this report at AN/I is the incivility, not the content dispute. Discussion of Feminine essence theory of transsexuality as a topic belongs on its talk page, and I would invite you to offer your views there. As Banjeboi has noticed, the incivility is currently overwhelming any productive discussion.

— James Cantor (talk) 12:55, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I have. I also felt that the issue raised by Bajeboi needed an answer here and now.--Hfarmer (talk) 14:26, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I still maintain the underlying civility issues, which are hardly limited to Dicklyon, are mere symptoms of a serious content problem that has been bubbling away for months. Personally I really haven't wanted to step through all the drama and I'm aware of other editors who have also - for sanity sake - simply moved on to more productive efforts. This may not be the best venue to resolve these issues but neither is various forms of intimidating editors helpful which also seems to be happening across multiple articles and noticeboards. The benefit of this board, however, is more experienced BS detectors are able to suss out the issues of problematic behaviour vs. content issues that also may need some specialized attention. I fear that this entire group of articles is showing few signs of coming into line with OR and NPOV policies and that we are headed towards more and more reports. I honestly think all these articles should be bundled and put on some sort of article watch with OR specialists sent it to weed out some of the more glaring issues. If you remind me I'll give shiny barnstars for whoever cleans these articles up as our readers deserve good NPOV articles and instead we seem to have a growing battleground. -- Banjeboi 16:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

We're in the process of starting mediation. A mediator has been chosen and we're in the 48-hour period to hear if there are any objections. While this was getting set up, other things do tend to happen still. But please do let me know if you find any of my remarks to be incivil; I do take input. So far all I've got here is Looie496 saying I'm "not behaving very well" and a couple of people mentioning a separate (and past) interaction with ScienceApologist, another complicated case with various "misbehaving" editors. Dicklyon (talk) 16:17, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Good to hear there is movement on this, please consider making the trimming of unneeded materials on BLPs part of the discussion if possible. -- Banjeboi 04:52, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Unban proposal for Rms125a@hotmail.com / User:Robert Sieger

Moved from WP:AN to here for greater visibility - Alison 00:42, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Back last summer when this editor came up for a possible unban, I vowed that if he went six months without socking I'd open a new unban proposal on him myself. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive451#Proposed_conditional_unban_of_User:Rms125a.40hotmail.com Looks like he's held up his end of the bargain: see User:Alison/RMS log. Eliz81 has a set of conditions at User:Eliz81/RMS and has promised via e-mail that she'd support this proposal. She'll probably endorse shortly. Rms has waited on the sidelines as we've asked; let's give him another fair try. Respectfully, Durova 02:16, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

What got him banned in the first place? Was it behavioral or what?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:22, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

More socks than Sock Shop. There are 340 listed, and probably a lot that were missed, not flagged, or not associated. Black Kite 02:32, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

There are waaay more than that. RMS' socks go easily into the thousand - I, and others, just stopped logging them after a while - Alison 05:38, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

The links Durova provided say it all. RMS has quite a...colorful history, but he's really worked hard to hold up his end of the bargain since July. Let's give him another chance to be a member of the community, under the provisions laid out in my userspace. Though maybe this request belongs in WP:ANI? ~Eliz81 05:09, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Oops - I wasn't aware that this has started already, and I'm caught a little unawares. Let me just say that RMS promised both Eliz81 and myself that after the last unsuccessful unban request, he's stay clear of Misplaced Pages and his notorious cadre of sock accounts. Well, he's done exactly that and I've been checking up on him regularly using checkuser. His IP and other tech info makes him instantly spottable. In short, he's kept up his side of the bargain. I have a pmail here from Jimmy that I was CCd on stating that he'd "support on general principles, if not been sockpuppeting in the meantime.", when 6 months has passed. I can't believe he lasted this long without socking, but he kept up his side of the deal. BTW - I've been dealing with RMS for ... what ... over three years now, and know his ways very well indeed. I've blocked more of his socks than any other admin and indeed, was vilified on-line and in the letters page of a newspaper by Robert, back in 2006 - and yes, I'd still support his unban 100%.

Having said all that, if he's to be unbanned by the community, I'd like it to be on condition that he be placed on probation for 3-6 months under the Troubles Arbitration conditions. After a while, that can be reviewed. But yes, he's been out in the cold way too long and I believe that everyone (well, almost!) is entitled to redemption. RMS, while socking, has spent most of the year keeping out of his 'hot button' articles, and had spent a lot of time wikignoming on biographical articles, and on early movie actors, etc. Time to bring him back in out of the cold! - Alison 05:30, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Eliz81's conditions are more appropriate than just Troubles Probation. I'd like to endorse that plan - Alison 05:37, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support unban; if they kept to the conditions, and Durova and Alison confirm they have, then we should keep to ours. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:24, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support - although the conditions (specifically #4 and #9) should be written in such a way as to allow an account name change. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 10:57, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
• The restrictions look pretty weasel-proof but I think three months probation is too short. A review after three months may be appropriate, but the probation should be in place for at least six and preferably twelve months - a year would be normal if ArbCom sanctioned someone whose history of disruption is of this magnitude. 80.176.82.42 (talk) 12:11, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

• I see little point in parole; a violation of the conditions is going to result in a block, likely indefinite and therefore a resumption of the ban, no matter if the editor is on parole or not. With their history this account does not need the stigma of parolee to ensure severe repercussions. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:18, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

• Call it probation, parole, agreed conditions, whatever - if there is no violation before everyone has forgotten the specifics then I think it won't be a problem. I just think that implying a three month limit to these restrictions is unhelpful in this case. Guy (Help!) 22:22, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

This doesn't seem to have a whole lot of visibility here. Mind if I move the thread to ANI? - Alison 04:25, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

• Last time I checked email adresses were not suitable account names... - Mgm| 12:51, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

RMS's account was created before the September watershed, so he's okay there. That comes up all the time on WP:UAA. If needs be, he also has an account in his real name - Alison 14:54, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

The only issues are that we cannot grant userrights to accounts with an @ sign and afaik, they cannot SUL. MBisanz 15:10, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Not really an issue; this was one of the accounts that got grandfathered in before the change. BTW no objection if the thread moves to ANI, Allie. Durova 21:39, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Durova, I am thinking more along the lines that if he ever wants any userright like Rollback or ever wants to SUL, he'll need to be renamed, which some people will claim he is doing to hide his past. But you are correct that it does not matter if he wants to keep the account. MBisanz 23:11, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, if we're already into worrying about this stuff, does that mean he's unbanned? ^_^ Seriously, though, he also has User:Robert Sieger, which may well be the account that gets unblocked, all going well - Alison 23:32, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea why he was banned, what he has done since then, or if he should be unbanned, I'm just trying to head off the picky technical bickering that will ensue if the point is reached where a large number of people want to unban him and a large number of people want to prevent unbanning by arguing over details. Yes, I am jaded, but only because I've seen it so many times before. MBisanz 23:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

All bans should be publically reviewed after a certain period of time, if requested by the banned editor. Misplaced Pages risk being guilty of incivility if we don't because administrators can be quite rude by email. I have experience of being mistreated at by an administrator and even told threatened with gang rape by another Wikipedian. (Ryulong and Durova both posted here, Durova was nice. No comment about Ryulong, he'll probably block me if I say anything less than stellar). What would be a suitable period of time? 1 year? 18 months? This would encourage good behavior and not using sockpuppetry. Chergles (talk) 21:59, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

That's more appropriate to bring up at WP:VPP. — The Hand That Feeds You: 02:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

With respect for Chergles's input I've created a new essay about lifting community bans. Misplaced Pages:Standard offer contains the standards I've practiced for over two years. Shortcut WP:SO. Durova 04:22, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

BTW - Robert emailed me to say that he's dealing with a family issue right now and won't really be able to participate (on or off-wiki) in discussions here for the moment - Alison 15:59, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• No. I've gone back over this guy's record - old blocks, old RFCs, etc - and it's quite clear he's a lunatic bigot. We have enough of these on Misplaced Pages without letting another one from the past back into the fold. Troubles article have plenty of nutters editing them without another one being throw in. I don't care if he's been a good little boy and avoided socking for six pathetic months - ooh, well done, would you like some chocolate cake now? Leopards spots change do not. What do you think he wants to come back for? To carry on wikignoming on movie bio articles? I really don't think so. Moreschi (talk) 22:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
  • I found this in my plague archives: Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Rms125a@hotmail.com. Do we really think that any...person...capable of writing this revolting bile should be allowed near Misplaced Pages? Do we really? Moreschi (talk) 22:58, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Keeping him from Misplaced Pages isn't actually feasible, but genuine reform may be. He has refrained from socking for half a year. Okay, let's give him a try. He'll be on the short leash and there isn't likely to be any opposition to a renewed ban if problems return. There's little to lose by giving banned users an incentive to turn over a new leaf, as long as the parameters are fair and reasonable to both sides. Not too lenient, but not impossible either. Durova 04:25, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Disruption at new MOSNUM RfC

Help. Locke Cole (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is now deleting an RfC on WT:MOSNUM This is intolerable. He is arguing about what old RfCs say in a fashion that misrepresents what editors understood and were voicing their opinions about, and then, when I try to clarify maters with a clear-as-glass RfC, he “archives” it. This is disruptive and must end. Greg L (talk) 02:10, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Please keep in mind that we just had two RFCs barely a month ago (which were advertised in the watchlist notice for nearly a month). This editor is being disruptive by starting up yet another RFC while we're trying to engage in good faith discussion. What Greg L is engaging in is effectively a filibuster, and he should not be allowed to continue. —Locke Cole • t • c 02:20, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Links to prior RFCs: WT:MOSNUM/RFC and WP:MOSNUM/RFC, please note these are distinct RFCs (one is not the talk page of the other), and both were advertised in MediaWiki:Watchlist-details for many weeks, closing on Christmas day. This is a pure disruption and will not yield any clearer results than the community RFC recently did (which had over 100 participants). —Locke Cole • t • c 02:27, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Agreed. The deleted RfC began to shine new light on a topic that badly needed more discussion. Why was it deleted? I don't believe it was up to one person to make the decision to remove it.  HWV258  02:24, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• I’ll answer that HWV258. No RfC is a “filibuster”. That is profoundly absurd. An RfC is a tool to find out what the true community consensus is after editors get locked into endless dispute about what previous RfCs mean. As for “engage in good faith discussion”, that sounds nice, but that is far from what Locke has been doing lately. He would much prefer tendentiously write for ever and ever about what the past RfCs mean and fears the obvious: that a new RfC to clarify these disputed points will not go his way. That is most unfortunate for him, but determining the community consensus is important to Misplaced Pages and he many absolutely not delete RfCs he disagrees with, particularly when he feeds everyone a line about how “we're trying to engage in good faith discussion”. There will now be more good-faith discussion: by others who will chose to participate in the RfC he so fears.

  Don’t delete it again, Locke. Any reasonable interpretation of your block log would suggest that you would have pulled this stunt and that you will do it again if given the chance. Greg L (talk) 02:31, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Whee, trot out my block log (most of it from 2006) as if that gives you license to be incivil to me, personally attack me, and engage in disruption. No Greg, you must stop. An RFC is a tool, and we've used it (twice! in the past two months), it's time to abide by the results received there rather than trying to go back for one more try. This is the problem at MOSNUM as a I see, you guys will ask, and ask, and ask again, until any reasonable person just gives in and quits. Then you get your way. And this behavior is not acceptable here. —Locke Cole • t • c 02:35, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Nevermind the fact that there is an ongoing RFAR... Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Date delinking, I think it is in the best interests of everyone involved to not delete the RFC. Doing so is not only disruptive, but can land potential editors with additional blocks. Let's not go down that road. seicer | talk | contribs 02:38, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• It would have been better (and less disruptive) had it not been created in the first place. Especially while we're discussing ways of moving forward that involve a perfectly sensible software fix being developed by UC Bill... —Locke Cole • t • c 02:44, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Despite overwhelming consensus that your opinion on the entire delinking matter was ruled moot and dead? I'm sorry if you can't accept the fact that the community has voiced its opinion, and that you can't accept it without having to disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point. seicer | talk | contribs 02:47, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• No, there was no "overwhelming consensus" except on the issue of dates linked purely for auto formatting. There was majority support for auto formatting of some type, which is what the discussion at WT:MOSNUM is attempting to address. Greg L and Tony1 have been trying to derail those discussions, repeatedly, by engaging in personal attacks, disruption and incivility. Also, I've renamed this section back to something more neutral because the old title was demonstrably false. If anyone is being disruptive here it's Greg L and Tony1. —Locke Cole • t • c 03:23, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Please stop changing this section heading from “Disruption by Locke Cole”. If you don’t want an “inflammatory” ANI thread title, stop engaging in inflammatory conduct. Why don’t you change it to “Unnecessary brouhaha that is the fault of others because they won’t do what Locke Cole wants”? Greg L (talk) 04:03, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
  • I suggest you refactor that last bit. Wanting a less-inflammatory section heading is actually a good thing, because it means people will enter into reading the discussion with (hopefully) fewer preconceptions. I have changed the thread title. I am not commenting on any merits or lack thereof of anyone's behaviour here, just pointing out that less-inflammatory section headers are better all around.//roux   04:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Very well. Greg L (talk) 04:10, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Please also refactor the unnecessary attack in your previous comment. //roux   04:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Wikipedians have got to start learning that “WP:Personal attacks” (“Racial, sexual, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, or other epithets”) is quite distinct and separate from employing facetiousness to illustrate a point. I suggest we stick to the more important isue here: whether or not an RfC to clarify a chronic point of contention can be flat deleted by a tendentious editor who worries the results of the RfC will not go his way. That too, isn’t a personal attack; it’s truth. Greg L (talk) 04:29, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• I'm not worried about that at all Greg, and please stop trying to tell others how I feel. My feelings were made quite clear at WT:MOSNUM and will be restated here for your benefit: another RFC is unnecessary and is a stalling tactic as well as an attempt to try to get a result that favors your position (since the last RFC did not). It's been barely a month since the last RFC, and these repeated attempts to derail conversations by you and Tony1 need to stop. It's disruptive, unhelpful at building consensus, and inflammatory / drama creating. Your incivility also needs to stop, but that's another matter (and one I raised at the arbitration case as a proposed injunction). —Locke Cole • t • c 04:41, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• In November, Locke prematurely archived a delinking RFC only 14 hours after it started. That RFC was created by Tony1 and is one of the two RFCs Locke mentions above. -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 04:43, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• I was thinking about that. Thanks. Darn relevant point. It speaks to the issue of being “tendentious”. Greg L (talk) 04:47, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• You're wrong. It speaks to how unapologetic you and Tony1 are in your repeated attempts to disrupt good faith efforts at dispute resolution. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:04, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Yeah, whatever. I think you admins can mark this one as resolved. Locke, on WT:MOSNUM here, wrote as follows: I will take his advice about leaving this disruption of yours alone. Thank you very much for your volunteer efforts here to intervene and settle this. Greg L (talk) 05:06, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Hardly resolved, your actions are disruptive and need to be dealt with. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Oh dear. A thousand pardons. I will endeavor to be much more like you in my editing behavior. Thank you for your constructive criticisms. I will try to do better. I wish you happy editing. Greg L (talk) 21:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Cole says: "There was majority support for auto formatting of some type". Um, not this mantra again. Please see an in-depth analysis of how and why the results of that RfC were fatally contaminated (the three-choice trap). I wish you'd stop trumpeting this "finding". (It's just been archived at MOSNUM talk, and of course is now hard to find ...). 124.170.115.42 (talk) 02:35, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Nip some Wiki-stalking in the bud, hopefully

NoCal100 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is an editor heavily involved in the range of Israeli-Palestine articles, as am I. As we obviously have divergent points of view on the subject matter, there will be the expected disagreement tension. We can all expect and handle that. However, I become a bit concerned when this user suddenly appears in the middle of an editing dispute regarding notability in an article about a Seinfeld episode, with 3 edits; one a minor link adjustment , one a reversion of my previous edit , and one in the article talk page taking the view in opposition to my own . Looking at it now, I realize that my last edits there were a week ago, even, so even more peculiar that Nocal100 would suddenly appear there and dust this off.

I've dealt with this sort of problem before, and would rather not go down this road again. The desired outcome here is not punitive, but rather that NoCal100 simply be admonished that following the edits of users with whom he has disagreements with and reverting them on subject matters in complete left field from where one normally encounters them is unacceptable behavior. Obviously everyone is allowed to edit anywhere in the project, but the possibility that another I-P editor just happens to find the same article of a TV show that I am editing on by chance is rather improbable. Special:Contributions/Tarc was clearly the road oft-taken here. Tarc (talk) 06:18, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

As someone involved in the content dispute with Tarc, I saw the edit war this has set off. I have to say, this does seem to be a pretty clear cut case of wikistalking (or wikihounding, or whatever we're supposed to call it); a look thru NoCal100's contribs shows no interest at all in this kind of article, and a heavy overlap with Tarc on Isreal-Palestine articles. Although NoCal100 is actually agreeing with me, content-wise, out of an abundance of caution (no ZOMG involved admin! accusations), I'll ask another uninvolved admin to review what's going on, ask/tell NoCal100 to keep the battle mentality out of unrelated articles, and decide whether protection and/or 3RR warnings are appropriate for either editor. --barneca (talk) 15:41, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think one article is anything to raise a fuss over. Believe me, I know whereof I speak; I've had editors follow me to multiple articles, with very little in the way of consequence, let alone "admonishment." If he makes a habit of it, then come back. IronDuke 15:48, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Having been a focus of Zeq's CAMERA fiasco, I'm well-aware, hence the "nip in the bud" approach. This is a clear first step on a well-trod path of harassment that many of the I-P editors have had to deal with, from both "sides". I'd rather see it stopped now before mushrooming as past cases have. Tarc (talk) 16:37, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I am currently involved in a content dispute with Tarc at Mohammad Amin al-Husayni , where he is removing material sourced to a book published by a mainstream press and authored by two academics, claiming it is non-notable "cruft" - and violating WP:BLP by calling those two academic "quacks". WP:HOUND is very explicit that "Proper use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy or correcting related problems on multiple articles." Given the seriousness of the BLP violations, I had a look at Tarc's contribution history to see if he is repeating these BLP violations elsewhere, and found The Serenity Now article, where surprisingly, Tarc is inserting true fancruft, sourced to a Youtube video into an unrelated article, against the consensus of multiple editors - a problem which I fixed. NoCal100 (talk) 16:09, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Had a hunch that that was the angle which you were going to cast, but I sincerely hope that no one nibbles. This isn't about me, and others, who have dismissed the "sources" at that article as non-reliable frauds perpetuating an unsubstantiated rumor. "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources", and these "academics" are anything but. It would be interesting to note that, while Mohammad Amin al-Husayni most certainly falls in to the I-P realm, NoCal100 had never touched that particular article until a few days ago as well, swooping into to revert to back to an edit made there by a new user, Tanbycroft (talk · contribs). This gets a little curiouser the more one digs. Tarc (talk) 16:34, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Several editors have complained of NoCal's habit of stalking them. I haven't complained. I just noted it on my page. here, and I think once to Elonka. My own case is fairly obvious. I corrected him on his confusion of 'flout' and 'flaunt', and quickly afterwards he appeared on one of the rarest pages in the I/P area, that of Nafez Assaily, a Hebron pacifist, which I had written. It is extremely difficult to imagine that he came across that page in oany other way than by looking at my contributions, and going there to niggle, or assist the since-banned dogmatic editor who attacked that page. He appeared as attempts were being made to get the page deleted. His editing is obnoxiously uninformed. He rarely engages in dialogue of justifications of what he is doing. His preferred modus operandi is reverting. I, like Tarc, have worked the Mohammad Amin al-Husayni page for some two years. I think I've revised intensively half of it. Sure enough, just as that page is disturbed by a newbie with no record of editing Wiki, and is challenged by both Tarc and myself, NoCal100 wheels in, and supports the newbie.

I imagine nothing will be done. I should hope, for the third time, that administrators in the area look at his methods, which are those of provocative attrition.Nishidani (talk) 16:46, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I had a look at Tarc's contribution history to see if he is repeating these BLP violations elsewhere, and found The Serenity Now article, where surprisingly, Tarc is inserting true fancruft,

That sir, is virtually an admission you tracked Tarc there. And worse still, the edit conflict at Mohammad Amin al-Husayni had nothing to do with the ostensible reason you introduced,i.e. WP:BLP violations. Whatever the virtues of the other text, Tarc, as I, and Imad Marie, were defending the al-Husayni article against cruft, which violated WP:FRINGE and WP:RS, as shown by detailed argument (to which NoCal hasn't deigned to reply to. He just keeps reverting three times a day). So, the excuse you supply is, by your own words, invalid. You supported a violation of two core policies on one page, and then chased one of the editors to another page to challenge him on a quite distinct issue, WP:BLP. Thanks for clarifying the plaintiff's case against you.-Nishidani (talk) 16:54, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I've given NoCalton a 3RR warning re Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 18:05, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm curious as to why you haven't done the same for the other participants in that edit war - e.g User:Tarc (2 reverts in the last 24hrs, same as NoCal) or Nishidani. Or why no warning for User:Tarc's 3 reverts on The Serenity Now. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I can't speak for Tarc, of course. But I presume an administrator does actually check the thread of talk. NoCal was asked to talk over the edit and justify it. The edit was ungrammatical. He still reverted, and would not give a rationale for the persistence as was asked of him. When it was pointed out he was restoring material he obviously hadn't read since it contained poor grammar anyone would sight, he told us to clean up the grammar ourselves of an bad edit he persisted in posting without correcting ( = 'I edit. You clean up after me, and don't revert it, except for improving it'). In other words, he refused to correct one of the many objectionable things about his edit. Remonstration finally got him to do this, but he still plugged away, and would supply no substantial reason other than his own definition of what is RS. It's one thing to be sucked into an edit-war reluctantly, while repeated requests for dialogue have been ignored. It is another to persist in edit-warring while showing a complete contempt for the objections raised by your interlocutors. One judges not just edit numbers, but attitude. Or I hope some administrators do this.Nishidani (talk) 19:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Looking at the Talk page in question, your explanation does not seem to hold up to scrutiny. NC has provided numerous explanations for his edits - here, here, here and . In contrast, User:Tarc has not participated in any Talk page discussion since January 22nd, and during that time has reverted the article 4 times, the last 2 within the last 24 hours. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:18, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Further to what Nishidani said: If one editor is reverting three or more times, and two or more editors are each reverting less than three times, I'll only warn the one, because to me that looks like that one person is reverting instead of discussing, which is disruptive. Hope this clarifies matters. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 19:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

User:Tarc has thrice reverted on The Serenity Now - why no warning? On Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, The reverts of Tarc and NC appear to be on par - both have reverted 2 times in the last 24 hrs, and NC appears to have been discussing things much more actively and more recently on the Talk page. Your actions seem quite one-sided to me. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:18, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

If you feel so strongly about the importance of this user being issued a warning, feel free to issue one yourself. My reading of the article history - and I looked back further than 24 hours - is very different from yours. Bias on my part is certainly one of the plausible explanations for that difference. Per MastCell's excellent suggestion, I'm not going to follow that line of reasoning. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 20:40, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I, too, looked back further than 24 hours. As my post above indicates, I looked as far back as January 22nd, and found at least 4 Talk page contributions by NC, and none by Tarc. On the article itself, from Jan 18 until today, I found 6 reverts by NC and 8 reverts by Tarc. So yes, while your reading of the article history is very different than mine, it is not clear at all what your reading is based on, and it is that which I'd like you to explain. It is of course quite possible that bias on your part is the explanation for that difference, but if that is the case you should probably not be issuing one-sided warnings, certainly not in an administrative capacity. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:22, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Let's not turn this into another Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Excessive block row (which I refrained from weighting in on) where all the usual I-P ducks get in their respective rows and poo-fling, please. I have had a history with Canadian Monkey, dating back to the Rachel Corrie stuff from last summer. These attempts to get me warned, or worse, are appearing to be a bit petty. I reverted 3 times, which I have rarely, if ever, done previously, due to the egregiously bad faith that NoCal100 was displaying by even being at The Serenity Now in the first place, as detailed here. Obviously there's never a good excuse for revert multiple times except to protect BLP or remove vandalism (which this was not), but it is nonetheless the reason that I did it, and stopped at 3. Tarc (talk) 20:02, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

You came here with a self-proclaimed goal "that NoCal100 simply be admonished" - and you are now complaining that people are attempting to get you warned, over actions that you concede "there's never a good excuse for"? Please take the beam out of your eye before pointing out motes in others'. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

← Some suggestions, in no particular order:

• YouTube generally isn't a great source. Material should probably stay out of an article until properly sourced. Don't edit-war to reinsert poorly-sourced material; spend the effort on locating a better source instead.
• If someone pisses you off, don't follow them to an unrelated article to disagree with them. It's textbook Wikihounding, or whatever we're calling it these days, and it's obnoxious.

As for the rest, nothing short of a steel-cage match is likely to resolve it, so I'd suggest it be ignored. Serenity now, people. MastCell  20:18, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for this balanced response and insights. Though I have crossed paths with both Tarc and NoCal before, my interest in this thread is a personal one, relating to wikipedia policy, rather than in either one of these editors. I have very recently found myself hounded by an editor who exhibited more egregious behavior than the single-article-following which is the cause for this current complaint. The editor who was following me around to numerous articles was explicit about his actions, in one case undoing my edit with an edit summary that said 'I spotted this just now, and thought I'd revert you here too.' I posted a notice on this board - Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive181#Wikihounding by User:Nickhh, looking for nothing more than to get that behavior to stop, perhaps by having an admin pronounce, just as you have done, that "It's textbook Wikihounding, or whatever we're calling it these days, and it's obnoxious". Instead, the responses I got were 'I do not think any reasonable user would consider a review of the contribution page of someone you had contact with stalking.' and 'simply following the work of another editor and occasionally dropping in to oppose that editor is NOT harassment.'. Needless to say, as he was not admonished, that editor proceeded to follow me around to another article in the next few days, in order to oppose me there. Perhaps there could be some clarification on what wikihounding actually is, and why these two cases are being treated differently. Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:23, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Quite so, and this is the point I was making earlier. As a person who has been wikistalked by experts (and my complaints met with yawns and giggles), reverting a copyvio(?) YouTube link is small potatoes. IronDuke 23:02, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

On the YouTube issue, there's a high probability that the video is a copyvio and so should not be linked at all: see WP:YOUTUBE. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:27, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Probably willing to concede that at this point, yes. Honest input into the matter was always desired, but the problem was that that was not given by the presence of Nocal100 on that article. As far as I can see, this is probably wrapped up, AN/I-wise. Tarc (talk) 04:04, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Without comment on the merits of other issues, if the YouTube hosting is copyvio it must be delinked per WP:COPYRIGHT. YouTube itself is not a hosting service, not a source, and legitimate YouTube material must be weighed upon the reliability of the uploader. Durova 22:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

John254 and Kristen Eriksen

This case goes back a few months, and has left some of us scratching our heads, but I think I've come to a conclusion. There is extremely strong evidence that John254 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been abusively sockpuppeting with the account Kristen Eriksen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for the past several months.

User:Kristen Eriksen joined on 2008-08-14, and immediately started editing like a seasoned user: her first edit was to add Lupin's tool to her monobook.js, and within her first day started fighting vandalism with automated tools, requesting permissions, and adding userboxes to her userpage; within two days of registration, she was commenting on ongoing arbitration cases. All not exactly hallmarks of a new user.

A couple weeks after this, an account was created impersonating yours truly - Crimp It! (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - who tried to MfD "Kristen's" userpage on mock puritanical grounds. A private checkuser inquiry found that Crimp It! was a confirmed sockpuppet of Kristen, though there was no clear connection to another master account at the time. Thus while I blocked Kristen at the time as another sockpuppet, it was decided to unblock as no clear evidence as to who the master was.

But since then, I've found many instances of evidence identifying Kristen Eriksen as a sockpuppet of the user John254.

• From August 12-14, John254 commented many times on a deletion review over some userboxes I'd deleted ("this user loves shemales," "this user loves blondes," etc.). One of his comments:

Furthermore, even if the "female editors' objections" inverse ad hominem argument against these userboxes were deductively valid (which it isn't), the fact that some female editors have placed these userboxes on their own userpages undermines its central premise (see, for example, and ). While the fact that female editors have employed these userboxes does not, by itself, establish that the userboxes aren't "sexist, divisive, and pointless", it serious weakens an argument for deletion that is predicated entirely upon the gender of the editors criticizing the userboxes. John254 18:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

• A couple hours after John254's last comment at the DRV, User:Kristen Eriksen was created. As mentioned above, one of the account's first edits was to create a userpage, claiming to be an eighteen-year-old female editor and adding userboxes claiming to enjoy nudity and body painting, as if to validate John254's assertion that "some female editors have placed these userboxes on their own userpages."
• While the two had never interacted on the project in the past, six days after Kristen had joined, after returning from a 24-hour "extended wikibreak" John254 presents Kristen a barnstar out of the blue "for your kindness in helping me to resolve Misplaced Pages-related stress." He also created a monobook.js for her.
• When the Kristen account was questioned about the confirmed sockpuppet Crimp It!, John254 immediately sprung to her defense and refactored her talk page. The Kristen account only responded several days later, on the 29th - a day that John254 did not edit at all, but at a time around when he would normally.
• Expanding on this last point, John254's contributions and Kristen Eriksen's contributions fit the classic pattern of sockpuppets, in that the periods of editing are constantly interwoven but never actually overlap. For example, John edited on the 18th of August, Kristen on the 19th, John on the 20th, etc... sometimes replying to each other's comments or giving each other a barnstar. On the few days where they both edit, their bursts of editing are still separated. (See November 23, for example, when both edited Covert incest, but at different times of day; or January 10.) This pattern seems very consistent with use of multiple computers, which would explain the inconclusive checkuser results back in August.
• But the final nail in the coffin: John254 stopped editing January 11th. The very next day, Kristen Eriksen copied his monobook.js and continued editing where he left off in the same times, in the same areas.

The evidence that John254 and Kristen Eriksen are one in the same seems extremely strong. What is the community's opinion? krimpet✽ 09:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Looks like it is. Maybe a trip to WP:SSP will do. However as per her edits are concerned, looks like it is constructive. Also, from this user's edits as User:Kristen Eriksen, it looks like that there is an another account (probably the master account also with the Lupin's Anti-Vandal tool) that can justify this user's edits. I'd say make a note on her talkpage and block the puppets. E Wing (talk) 10:26, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

These are some pretty strong accusations, and I think it may be worth hearing some explanation from the users mentioned; I notice this has come up for discussion before, at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive164#Accusation of abusive sockpuppetry and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive177#Inappropriate block (both threads started by John254, looks like). As far as checkuser goes, I'm not finding any direct overlap, but the IPs involved geolocate similarly. The behavioral cues Krimpet's mentioned here do seem to suggest some connection between these accounts exists, regardless of whether the nature of that connection is malicious. Could be that someone's editing with one account from Location A, and the other account from Location B; could be that they're friends offline; could be something else entirely. Whatever the case, I hope we can see some productive discussion here with a minimum of drama. – Luna Santin (talk) 10:30, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Certain aspects of the evidence I provided lead me to believe they are the same person, rather than two people who are acquaintances offline: it seems a bit improbable, for example, that the same day John254 was protesting the deletion of several sexual userboxes, that he convinced his eighteen-year-old nudist female friend to join Misplaced Pages and add those userboxes to her userpage. That he managed to explain to her the workings of ArbCom cases within the next few days seems only more puzzling. krimpet✽ 10:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

That does seem pretty remarkable. – Luna Santin (talk) 11:00, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• I have thought there was something up with KE since (s)he? arrived. No strong comment on whether it is the same person, but it certainly looks suspicious. Viridae 10:32, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
  • OK having read the evidence through properly now I agree with Krimpet that the evidence seems strong. One thing that eluded me was a reason for the noob mistake of having the sock appear out of nowhere and suddenly participate like an old hand. But as we have seen in the past, sometimes these things HAVE no good, well thought out reasoning. Viridae 10:59, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
• Well, one thing that I note is the common habit of doing Non-admin closings on AfD at the same time of the day in the 00.00 - 01:00 UTC range, and more significantly almost always early on the fourth day of the listing. Now, to hear their point it is necessary to notify in any case KE as well. If they are the same, which seems at least possible, we would certainly have to look into the resulting disruption and deception, but the actual amount of abuse isn't obvious to me. One 'double' vote I came across was on a DRV, incidentally regarding a deletion by Krimpet, and endorsed by both. In other cases they qualify each other.. --Tikiwont (talk) 12:59, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Note: This is being investigated by various CUs. I ran some checks back in the Crimp It time period as did other CUs. That's all I am prepared to say at this time. ++Lar: t/c 13:23, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

i actuall dealt with this user briefly while we were both editng acovert incest. she Seemed capable, thoug her userpage made it hard to communicate (all those increadably large image slow up my computer a lot!) but now that i have ereviwed User Crimpits evidence i can see that, even if kristen and john231 are different peple, kristens acctions re: the fake account user: Crimp It merit some action since that cna possibly have a negative aimpact on another innocent user:crimpit. kristens insisted on inserting himself or herself into major dbates could be also a clue of either meatpuppetry or suckputtering. Smith Jones (talk) 13:47, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Please define "suckputtering." Edison (talk) 18:52, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Erm, is it something from one of Kristen's movies? AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 18:58, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Last time I suckputtered myself, it made me go blind. – iridescent 19:00, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Golf course sex? Edison (talk) 19:10, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Probably related to token sucking. --NE2 22:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

No, its something that kiss-up caddies do. Schmidt, 02:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

however, due to kristens lack of vandalism (appearant), iw ould like to present this WP:SOCK#LEGIT link. in it postulates that sometimes sockpopers are allowed in certain cirucmstances such as to avoid scrutiny or perform security agaginst the main accont. krimpet mentioned that htis user seemed to be operating from different computers; perhaps the acocunt User:Kristen Eriksen was devleoped for editing when at a public computer where it is probable that htis accounts informatinoa could be stealed. in this case thaen this mightbe a legit use of a sockpuppet, or although i understand if this iseems impalausible. Smith Jones (talk) 13:47, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I think everyone who has interacted with Kristen Eriksen has come to the conclusion that the person operating the account is not new to Misplaced Pages. I had hoped to research their edit history to try and figure out who they were, but it appears Krimpet already did it for me. After reviewing the evidence and hearing Luna-San's negative assurance (there is no evidence that indicates Kristen Eriksen and John254 are not the same person), I would agree with the conclusion that for Misplaced Pages's purposes, Kristen Eriksen and John254 should be treated as the same person. MBisanz 13:53, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

If they are the same person, it is likely that the checkuser result will be inconclusive, unless he has slipped up recently. It would be useful to have someone independently analyze their edit times. Assume that they are the same person, and that he travels to a particular location to edit as KE so that there will be no IP connections between KE and himself. Can this hypothesis be disproved by an analysis of their edit times? Thatcher 14:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Not necessarily. If he lived in an apartment/dorm building he could use one account from a wired connection and a second account piggybacked to a wireless connection that would route to a neighbor's wired connection, which could be on an entirely different ISP. And of course he could be using some for of VPN/secure proxy to come in through a hosting server, etc. Edit times are likely to be inconclusive at proving guilt or innocence IMO. MBisanz 14:29, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Bear in mind that I checkusered KE some time ago. I never had a reason to check John, but I know where KE edited from and that there are no other interesting editors at that location/IP range. Therefore, unless there is a recent slip, current CU results will also be inconclusive at best. Thatcher 16:34, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

If you had all just listened to me and deleted userboxes when we had the chance, this wouldn't've happened. Just saying. --Cyde Weys 14:06, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Maybe you should bring that up again??--Tom 19:04, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I doubt it - if this had not come up about userboxes it would have been something else. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:35, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Thatcher, if these are two different people editing from two different locations who tend to make similar edits at similar times, then it must be likely that on at least one day the two of them were online and editing at the same time. The sockpuppet theory is falsifiable, in other words. Reading the above analysis, I'm leaning towards sockpuppetry on the balance of probability, but I do not have enough time to examine their contribs in detail. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 14:28, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that it what I said. Unless there has been a recent slip-up, the technical evidence will be inconclusive as Luna said above. Therefore, the hypothesis that they are the same person is not provable but may be falsifiable. CHL has now made an attempt at doing so. Thatcher 16:34, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

i have refiewed Mr John's block log. he has an expired 24 hour block for inciviliy that was 2 years ago. is it possible that hei si sin fact relapsing into his old ways? some of us sohould ty and review his contribs to check for any vandlaism or inciviltiy connected with User:Krsten Eriksen and copared it to John's incvility. often sockpuppets have the same writing style or patter n of abuse as the sockmaster. Smith Jones (talk) 15:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

They never edit at the same time (no interleaving). I think they're socks. Cool Hand Luke 15:26, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Also see here. There are 451 pages that both accounts have edited. Take special notice to those edits in the Misplaced Pages namepace (i.e.: AfD, Featured Picture and other votes) where both accounts were used. - Rjd0060 (talk) 16:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Unless a checkuser says otherwise (i.e. that they're unlikely to be the same user), I'm prepared to tag them and block them indefinitely, which appears to be the correct course given the nature of the socking. Objections? Sarcasticidealist (talk) 16:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

By all means block KE, but I don't think John should be blocked - see below. Ryan Postlethwaite 16:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Per what I interpret as consensus here (both as to the existence of sockpuppetry and the proper solution) I've blocked KE indefinitely. I still support a comparable remedy for John - when established contributors use sockpuppetry abusively and deliberately violate the community's trust, we should punt them - but won't take any action given the lack of consensus on the subject. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 17:02, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't block John indefinitely, but I'd definitely give him a lengthy block, as his socking violations were quite flagrant. Gaming the system by participating twice in many discussions? he doesn't have my sympathy. --Cyde Weys 17:00, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Note also that both accounts were posting to the workshop of the Scientology arbitration case, playing different sides of the fence and even arguing with each other. The space taken up by John254 in particular nearly made the page unreadable. He appeared to be highly partisan and aggressive for no apparent reason, but if both accounts are him that's outright trolling. See:

• Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Scientology/Workshop#Proposals_by_Kristen_Eriksen
• Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Scientology/Workshop#Proposals_by_John254

Disrupting arbitration is a serious matter. Durova 18:03, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Smacks of a Locke/Demosthenes powerplay. –xeno (talk) 18:10, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

For those of you less versed in great science fiction, Xeno is referring to manipulating a debate by becoming the figure head of two opposing sides, and then using your influence together later.--Tznkai (talk) 18:32, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Fooled me; I thought KE was a honeytrap of some other account, and that John254 was a potential victim (I have to say that I wasn't following the events too closely though). From the evidence of no overlapping, similar interests, and the matter of KE having the details of where that account and John254's disagreed so readily to hand does suggest a co-ordinated campaign... Anyone have any particular idea what the objective was, since there is an apparent divergence of intent between the two personae? LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:28, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

  See the diff posted by GTD above... –xeno (talk) 20:31, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

  Am I the only one who finds anything ironic in the user warning Kristen against "erotophobic bigots" being the same user who wanted a health warning added to "Masturbation"? – iridescent 20:37, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Let's assume they are the same

Let's assume it is the same person operating the accounts (the evidence looks strong to say the least, especially when you compare edit times). What sanctions to people actually think should be placed on the accounts? I think it's clear that the KE account should be blocked and John limited to one account, but does anyone believe John should be sanctioned? Now that it's been found out, John should be strongly cautioned about sockpuppeteering and that in the future he would be blocked for a long time should he caught using socks. John has an extensive editing history and most of his work is very much productive - I see this as a severe lack of judgement, but not something that should see him hang. In the mean time, I do suggest we look over discussions that both accounts have participated in to make sure that their comments haven't affected the outcome of them. Ryan Postlethwaite 16:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Per Rjd's evidence above, this is the kind of socking that I think merits (and usually gets, when engaged in by less established contributors) indef blocks all around. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 16:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Or at least a punishment that's very severe. --Cyde Weys 17:02, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Men pretending to be women and trying to sexually titillate other editors, we've been here before! As Sarcasticidealist, others would be blocked for this. At the time measures are being taken to make Misplaced Pages more respectable, we have editors on here making a joke of other editors. Disgraceful behaviour. GTD 17:05, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Agree with GTD. This isn't by any stretch a legitimate alternative account, this is an established editor votestacking after already being caught socking once with the Crimp It! account. – iridescent 17:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Indef both accounts and formalise it with a ban. This was not harmless socking, it was entirely abusive including vote stacking etc. We have plenty enough users that we can do without those who so blatantly and wilfully flout our rules. Viridae 17:13, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I've checked the one AFDs and two DRVs where there was duplicate participation. In the AFD KE participated and John closed, but it was the only possible closure given the other participants opinions, so the right outcome resulted. One of the DRV's KE nominated, John participated, and the close would have been the same had John not participated. In the other DRV the close would have been the same had neither participated.

I don't much care about the two WP:RFAR Workshop pages where they both participated; the effect of their action their would have been at most minimal.

I am most concerned about the RFA, where both accounts were more vocal than the typical RFA supporter in their support of the candidate, and persuaded at least one opposer to remove their opposition, and who knows what the effect of the discussion was on later opiners. I'd suggest that be fully reviewed. GRBerry 17:11, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I would support an indef block, but saving that, at least 90 days block on John254 for deceiving the community, socking, etc. MBisanz 17:13, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

They both should be indefinitely blocked, per my comment above. It would be a different story if the two accounts did not edit the same pages, but voting the same way on RfA's, AfD's, Featured picture candidates, etc. is far too disruptive and a blatant abuse of alternate accounts. - Rjd0060 (talk) 17:41, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

As has been noted elsewhere, this edit suggests serious foul play, if the two accounts are indeed the same. I would suggest a ban is considered. GTD 17:43, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I have now blocked John254 indefinitely. I would be glad to be proven wrong here, but the evidence strongly and substantially suggests not only the use of alternate accounts in a deceptive manner (talking to each other, making political points, etc.), but also abusing multiple accounts in various on-wiki votes. This type of behavior is simply unacceptable, a principle that has been re-affirmed countless times over the past years. If significant evidence comes to light that disproves what has been said here, the indefinite block can be obviously be revisited. But, frankly, I doubt that will ever happen. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:06, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Vote stacking RFA, AFD, DRV, and featured processes is a standard cause for sitebanning. If there are reasons why this should be any exception, please bring them forward. So far I see none. Durova 18:07, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

If true, this was a pretty serious and pathetic abuse of trust + lying about themselves + sockpuppeting + occasional vote stacking + deliberately winding up Krimpet + attempts to get one to pass RFA + general patheticness, this isn't really some minor error Tombomp (talk/contribs) 18:28, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Agree with above comments and support the indef blocks of John254 (talk · contribs) and Kristen Eriksen‎ (talk · contribs). Disruptive behavior at an active Arbitration Case, RFA, AFD, DRV, etc, is indeed cause for sitebanning. Cirt (talk) 18:31, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
• Agree with indef of Kristen Eriksen - abstain on John254 for now except to say I find the deception inherent in sockpuppetry to be the problem, and a serious one. I'd like for a CU to weigh in.--Tznkai (talk) 18:38, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
  • What would you like a CU to weigh in on? If these two users are the same person, the things done (as Durova listed) are deceptive enough that an indef block/ban for both is warranted. In my considered judgment, having run checks here more than once over a period of time, a CU cannot at this time show they are the same, to the level of confidence used when CUs say  Confirmed. Nor can it show they are not the same, to the level of confidence used when CUs say  Unrelated (I'm not talking certainty here, CU never is certain/infallible). But the time based edit analysis is damning. ++Lar: t/c 20:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Good enough.--Tznkai (talk) 20:23, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
    • I'll second that, for what it's worth. – Luna Santin (talk) 21:09, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
• Unless we see some clear evidence that these are different people, this looks like a conclusive demonstration of bad faith and as such, according to my understanding of policy, grounds for a ban. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 19:22, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
• Well if everyone else is in favor of an indefinite block/ban, I'm not one to argue. That's acceptable to me. --Cyde Weys 19:41, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
• I concur with a block/ban for both IDs. I suspect I'm not the only CU that had suspected something all along. ++Lar: t/c 20:13, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
• I support indef block or ban for both. This is pretty obvious, pretty extreme, an overall pretty clear-cut case. Really good work from all the investigators who gathered this strong evidence. delldot ∇. 20:22, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
• KE is too obviously a false front (in a manner of speaking) and should be indeffed - I think we should wait for John254's response before making a decision on that account, but it would need to be pretty strong for a lengthy sanction not to be imposed. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:35, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
• I'd agree with delldot and preceding - asking oneself to run for RfA...the arguing etc. This is not impulsive nor is it brief, but sustained. I think indef block both is appropriate. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:39, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
• Casliber put his finger on the matter. I wouldn't have given two shakes of a USB cable about this sock puppeting, except that one account managed to get the Admin bit for the other. That indicates bad faith here. -- llywrch (talk) 21:30, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

  Well they didn't manage to get it but they were making steps towards it. –xeno (talk) 21:39, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Ban both. We don't tolerate screwing around like this. Plus, the John account was a habitual disruptor of arbitration and a vexatious litigator. He'll be little missed - or she? Ah, fond memories of the PoetBeast flood back...Moreschi (talk) 22:40, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
• Seems like there is community consensus for a ban, so I'm tagging. Secret 22:59, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
• This evidence while not nailing it to the wall is pretty conclusive. Especially the part about copying the monobook and continuing his edits.--Crossmr (talk) 01:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
• Too much here to ignore...I'm comfortable with an indef block+ban for both accounts. Proffered explanations to this point appear unsatisfactory. — Scientizzle 02:13, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
• I oppose a ban on John254, who has done a lot of good work and should have a place here. The best outcome for the encyclopedia is not an outcome that bars this person from volunteering. Everyking (talk) 04:38, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
• ahas john254 ben given a chance to respond this charges? has he ven loged in recently? this is a major deal and would benefit from at least gietng to here him speak. we have heard kristen eriksens defense on her talkapge but john254s silence as well as his history of having at last some contrustive editing makes me want to hold off un permanelty closing the case and indefinitely banning him until he at least says something about this crises. Smith Jones (talk) 13:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Let's assume they're not the same

I'm not saying this to defend KE, or to spite the previous section. I just want to create a space where we can discuss this under the assumption that they're not the same. Please see my little stub of an essay for why I think this is helpful.

AFAIK, the alleged puppeteer has not been banned, so they is not evading a ban, which means we're not making a terrible mistake by assuming they're not the same. That leads us to the most important question: Did the account KE, by itself, do anything that needs to get banned? — Sebastian 18:20, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

The obvious solution is to do exactly what John254 would do in a situation like this: file a request for arbitration . — CharlotteWebb 19:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

A valid question especially as this thread has now resulted in both accounts being blocked for which I'd have liked to have seem some more discussion of the impact, possible counter indication, their productive contributions as well as a stronger consensus before the second block. In case there was consensus for one indef block only, I'd have suggested to put it somewhat against usual procedure unto John254. If they are not the same he might be Gentleman enough to take the bullet or simply not care anymore while Kristen could resume editing once the community thinks there is no further danger and if she is still interested. Now both accounts are blocked, but the question remains the same as it is Kristen who asks for an unblock.--Tikiwont (talk) 19:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I'll bite here. If they're not the same, KE is obviously not on her first account. On her third day as an editor, she was already familiar with Esperanza and had a strong opinion as to its inappropriateness. If she isn't John254, perhaps she could disclose previous account(s) or IP(s) to a checkuser for examination? --B (talk) 20:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Quack. - Rjd0060 (talk) 20:04, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't matter. It is irrelevant for this section. Please read my essay, which explains why. (I probably should rename this section to "AGF still provides value here", or some such.) — Sebastian 22:25, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Um, the evidence is overwhelming and AGF only goes so far. AGF isn't a parachute for those who decide to blatantly abuse editing privileges. - Rjd0060 (talk) 22:28, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

"AGF only goes so far" - That's precisely the mindset that I'm trying to get out of your head. It's sad enough that you have no better reason than what amounts to "I don't want to". I actually made the experience that it can go a lot further than this! If you have any evidence against that, please show it to us. (Preferably at User talk:SebastianHelm/Sock hunt.) — Sebastian 01:26, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

If you believe that a policy like AGF is completely impossible to abuse, then I'm not going to argue. Besides, this is going off-topic. I don't have the time nor motivation to explain these things to you. Regards, - Rjd0060 (talk) 01:45, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

   (I may not be watching this page anymore. If you would like to continue the conversation, please do so here and let me know.) — Sebastian 02:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Not everyone believes this nonsense

I do not know either John254 or Kristin Erikson and recently stumbled across this. But, I have to say this looks like a witch hunt with evidence that wouldn't even hold up as circumstantial. They can't prove they're not socks, so they must be. And any evidence to the contrary is more proof because it must have been deliberately planted. If we ban then and they drown, then they must have been innocent after all. Personally, I've been editing Misplaced Pages since the beginning (late 2001), both as an IP user and with an account that I have abandoned, so I fully understand KE appearing on Misplaced Pages knowing more than you think a new user ""should". I would bet that the vast majority (like 99%) of users spend some time editing as an IP user before they create an account -- the only question is how long they spend that way. It looks like KE didn't bother creating an account until she found a need to do so. That not only is not wrong, it should be encouraged.

Like KE, I have also edited extensively as an IP. For the most part, I found no reason to create an account, but I created a new account recently with my real name and, of course, my new account appeared to be an expert about Misplaced Pages immediately. Like KE, I also dive deeply into things. Were you to accuse me of being John254's sock puppet, I would do the same that she did -- dig into his edit history and compare it to mine to look for evidence to prove my innocence. Most of the contributors here have dug into KE's edit history and now may well know more about it than she does -- are you therefore sock puppets too?

Suggesting that defending herself with evidence, against people who are accusing her with flimsy evidence, is ridiculous. And, to argue that she would have deliberately created arguments with herself and other contrary evidence, over a long period of time, just in case anybody ever complained is hard to believe.

At best, the evidence here looks like collusion, not sock puppetry, and I don't even see that. But, even so, there is no rule against collusion on Misplaced Pages. And we see it all the time, with people cooperating on edits. I personally have emailed people I know to suggest that they edit pages in which I had an interest. Doing so does not make them my sock puppet or vice versa, whether they agree with me or disagree with me.

To me, this flimsy house of cards rush to judgment and assumption of guilt represents the very worst of Misplaced Pages, and I think that even if it turns out that they are witches (uh, sock puppets). And I, personally, do not believe it to be true after reading this and the information on KE's page.

RoyLeban (talk) 22:21, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Read WP:DUCK; the truth of the matter is that if the community is wrong (and that is entirely possible... theoretically) then the project suffers by the removal of two or more potentially useful members, but if the community is right - as it is by a huge percentage - then potential trouble is avoided. Please note that many commenting here are seasoned editors with experience of detecting socks and their masters - and even some who were unaware of the socking situation had concerns about the KE account from some time back. Two last points - don't. go. to. WP:SPI (you won't like it!), and, no relation to Judge Roy Leban then? LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:31, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Then why would someone with sense or experience create this as a userpage? And use this as a signature? Real women on the Internet get more unwanted sexual attention from deviant males than anybody likes to deal with. And sometimes end up going to the police about it (possibly asking the advice of experienced female editors first). If this were an actual woman it's dubious she'd put up those boxes even if they were true, and she'd likely ask for the page to be deleted within a month. That 'she' kept it up until the sockpuppet template took its place today, and joined so soon after 'her friend' engaged in a dispute about that type of userbox, strains credibility. This is more characteristic of male sockpuppeteers, and a rather blatant example. Durova 23:00, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Just reading her interactions, it's so obviously a parody it's hilarious. For some reason, I read the mutual gushing with John654 and think encouraging Norwegians love Emerald Nuts. --B (talk) 23:28, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

People are convicted of murder based on "circumstantial evidence." You don't understand what that term means. Here we're just trying to build an encyclopedia, and we make the best judgments we can. It seems likely that user has disrupted the project, and I can say this is not the only account apparently connected to these two to have done so. It's a pattern of abuse, and it needs to stop, so we're stopping it.

Incidentally, this certainly isn't collusion; the reason sock-puppetry has not previously been established is that the user has employed different computers at different times to edit Misplaced Pages. If they had edited in collusion, they might have once edited at the same time. But they don't; these edits sprang from a discrete human being. Cool Hand Luke 23:24, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Let me ask a really stupid question. I'm assuming that the checkusers have ascertained if, in fact, this person is editing from a university and what university that is. Have any checkusers checked that school's directory to see if someone with the name Kristen Eriksen exists? At Tech, we have what we jokingly call Hokie Stalker and I'm assuming most schools have something similar. If this is a real and not a made up persona, it should be that hard to verify. Personally, I think it stretches the imagination. She lives in the dorm, edits Misplaced Pages nude, is 18 (a freshman), and is a pornstar? I don't think so. But in the off chance it's true, a checkuser could confirm it by using the appropriate search engine or asking her to email you from a school-issued email address. --B (talk) 23:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

This school does not produce a public student directory, but your email suggestion is a good idea. Cool Hand Luke 00:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I have plenty of other things to do, so I'm not planning on checking in on this in the future. Do what you will. But, I feel a couple of responses are useful:

1. I'm not new. I'm certainly familiar with WP:SPI and may other Misplaced Pages policies I disagree with. Just because a guideline exists doesn't mean that I agree with it. Just because mob rule is "legal" doesn't make it right. I see a lot of vitriol in discussions like this and it makes me sick. It is a duty of the citizenry (of Misplaced Pages or any community) to speak out against things they believe are wrong. Otherwise, I would have just let this pass.
2. I don't care what the guidelines say -- asking a friend of mine to weigh in on a discussion is not sock puppetry or meat puppetry or any other puppetry if I don't tell my friend what to say. Those who know me know are well aware that I solicit the opinions of people that I agree with as well as those that I disagree with so as to have more inclusive discussions and we all benefit from such discussions. Any guideline on Misplaced Pages that discourages inclusive discussions should be ignored. I don't like seeing one person take over an article because they have more time to edit. I don't like seeing AfDs that kill significant contributions to Misplaced Pages that only have three people voting on them (or many voters but no actual discussion whatsoever). Etc.
3. Yeah, I understand circumstantial evidence. Saying I don't turns this into a personal attack which is uncalled for (this is the tip of the iceberg of the vitriol I refer to above -- is it really necessary to attack me too?). Notice I said "that wouldn't even hold up as circumstantial", not that it was circumstantial. It's coincidental evidence. They're both in the same city of 2 million. Yeah, right. Kirsten has too much evidence for why she's not John, so she must be John. Yeah, right. I'm not saying that they are different people or that they are the same person. I have no insider knowledge. But, I'm certainly not convinced by the supposed evidence and I don't like this process.

RoyLeban (talk) 08:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Review outed them as sockpuppets on August 26. The self-serving arguments with each other and effusive compliments have to be seen in that light. Then they mutually disappear for over a month (ie, enough time for any potential slipups a checkuser might detect to go away), then return. You're not going to get something more rock solid than this case. --B (talk) 14:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Circumstantial evidence is anything probative in the matter. Editing times are certainly probative into sockpuppetry. I inferred that you misunderstood the word—as most people in the popular press do—nothing personal. I'm sorry you felt that it was an attack. Incidentally, since you're opposed to vitriolic rhetoric, I hope that you abstain from claiming that Wikipedians are drowning accused witches in the future.

As for the case, I made similar inferences to User:B above. Cool Hand Luke 21:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Unblock request

Kristen has complained that there's no link here to her defence of her actions on her talk. So posting a link. Make of it what you will. – iridescent 17:29, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Interesting rebuttal . If they are different people I would assert that she knows John better than John knows himself. — CharlotteWebb 18:37, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

i find it aht it does not beat hte laugh testthat htis user has so quickly acomplied a detailed set of dilinated separatives between herself and John. i am asssumin g good faith that kristen and john are not the same, but the style of which they argue seems increasingly simular -- i compared x here re: to y here (where x = john and y = kristen) and they are strikingly similar in connotative denunciation. Smith Jones (talk) 21:22, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

further more i declare this kristen eriksen as compared to john254. in this matter, you can see the striking similarities between their edit contributions ratio. kristen has like 46% article contribs to john's 38%, which is only a few percentage points off when revised with the standard mean in these types of cases.

none of this proves byon a shadow of a doubt that they are sockpuppets but it does estlabish a patern of strange and overlapping edits that should be discussed inf urther despite "Nordic goddes" Kristens objections to te contraire. Smith Jones (talk) 21:22, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I am confused by your x/y examples. Don't they look like standard rollbacks? Only neither of them seems to be rollbacker, and I couldn't find these strings in their monobook.js (note that Kristen simply imported John's). It seems unlikely that they were entered manually. --Hans Adler (talk) 22:07, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Um, satire, Hans. Cool Hand Luke 22:09, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, they both had rollback, which I removed earlier. KE / J. - Rjd0060 (talk) 22:30, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

thank you for the response. that was weird for me since it impleid that kristen has an inaccurate tag on her account. Smith Jones (talk) 22:36, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

That's not a statistically significant finding. The odds that any two random editors' article contribution ratios are within 8 percentage points of each other wouldn't even meet an 80% confidence interval, let alone a 95% one. There are many good pieces of evidence to suggest that these two accounts are the same person, but this isn't one of them. --Cyde Weys 22:24, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

i see your point, but it does bare scruitiny that a "new" user would spent so much time on non-article space. from my experience, most acutal new users turn up for the articles and only get involved with user:talk and other administrative space s as a result of their work on articles. users who spend most of thier time geting involved in major adminstratve functions as their first few edits is weird; not necesarily indictiave of sockpuppetry but demands scrutniy nontheless. Smith Jones (talk) 22:36, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

People. It's a joke. Cool Hand Luke 22:28, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

thank you for speaking for me user:Cool Hand luke but i can speak for myself. your help is muh appreciated but its geting somewhat irksome. Smith Jones (talk) 22:36, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Chill out, SJ, it's all cool. There are many aficionados of your postings here. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 23:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Temp wikipedian category

I removed that one bit from John's talk page and notified the person who placed it. Revert at will, the cat with it's possible 30-day deletion just seemed premature. No opinion on the rest of this beyond that its really unfortunate. rootology (C)(T) 18:44, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, pages of users involved in sockpuppetry are kept regardless. There are details at the top of this page. - Rjd0060 (talk) 18:55, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

what about User:Crimp It? Shhould he be tagged? iam thinkg yes but i dont want to potentially hurt User:Krimpet by assocation Smith Jones (talk) 21:30, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Sure, tag it. Easy to note the distinction. Durova 22:40, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Something else to consider

User:Crimp_It! == User:Kristen_Eriksen == User:John254

User:Krimpets Tasty Cake == User:Mike_Garcia == Prolific Vandal User:Johnny the Vandal

So does John254 == Johnny the Vandal?

I think the MO fits where he would have one good hand account and have other accounts vandalize the good hand account. Also, John254's contribution in the arbritations could possibly be seen as a form of trolling. Thoughts? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 02:17, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• Unless we have good reason to, we shouldn't be assuming that one imposter == another. Protonk (talk) 02:39, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
  • No way. If I am remembering my (now deleted) CU emails correctly, JtV is not even on the same continent as Kristen Ericksen. Thatcher 03:41, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
    • A few weeks ago I initially made the mistake of suspecting "Tasty Cake" was another of Kristen's sockpuppets, which may have led to the confusion. CUs confirmed that it was instead a puppet of "Johnny," who is indeed completely unrelated to John254. krimpet✽ 03:45, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
      • It is all part of Hephaestos's plan of getting his revenge on the idiots who populate this website. John Guy Robinson, Michael and JtV are one and the same!!! Mike Garcia: Electric Boogaloo (talk) 21:46, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
        • Of course, the editor here actually is JtV. And no - John254 is not JtV. JtV is also known as "The Italian Vandal", which should explain things :) - Alison 21:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Dutch conversation at User talk:Daveneijsen

Would someone have a quick look at User talk:Daveneijsen (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) especially the history. Probably a quick block/protect and delete is needed. Thanks --triwbe (talk) 13:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Uhh, why does this bother you? What do you care if someone speaks Dutch? Posting a xenophobic warning tag on that editor's talk page was rude but then to follow it up with a complaint at this page is the height of chutzpah. L0b0t (talk) 14:10, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's simply the fact that they communicate in Dutch, but that they aren't here to build an encyclopedia. User:Onsjoe, User:Daveneijsen, User:Leonieeshuis, and their various IPs are using Misplaced Pages as a chat service. --Onorem♠Dil 14:14, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

If that is the case then I stand corrected. However, that was not made clear by the poster, and the placement of a warning message admonishing the target to speak English was something I found rude. It seemed to me to be a case of Waah...I can't read it even though it it doesn't concern me, wasn't written to me, and is in someone else's user space. Cheers. L0b0t (talk) 14:24, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Onorem, you got it exactly. Applying wikipeida policies is not xenophobic, neither is bringing up the case here. Please stop with the personal comments L0b0t. --triwbe (talk) 14:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

As they say, it's not that it's Dutch, it's that they are using the talkpage for chatting in Dutch, and those are the only edits that any of those editors are making. Delete the pages, and put a notice each of them explaining why.—Kww(talk) 14:20, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I have placed a warning (in Dutch) about Misplaced Pages not being a webhost. I have placed the same warning on User talk:Onsjoe and User talk:Leonieeshuis. The IPs used seem pretty static (User talk:80.127.156.245,User talk:81.204.77.234, User talk:85.159.97.1) so if the same behaviour continues on other pages, they should be warned and eventually blocked. Fram (talk) 14:34, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

In addition to the above remarks, I would point out that communicating in languages other than English on talk pages is distinctly frowned upon. See Misplaced Pages:TALK#Good_practice. Cheers, AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 16:18, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

And I would have to add that there is NOTHING xenophobic about asking people to use English on the English Misplaced Pages. See Xenophobia and explain how it applies to asking users to post in English. The Seeker 4 Talk 16:27, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I find it kind of sad that so much of that sophomoric discussion was actually in English...nice, very good, gefixed, but especially "chill." Brr. Spreek je moerstaal! Yes, WP is not a chatroom. (And I'm going to clean up the Dutch messages I've left on talk pages...) Drmies (talk) 21:46, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Conversely, I find it handy. When I break down and cheat by inserting an English word, a lot of time no one seems to notice at all.—Kww(talk) 00:32, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

massive edits in 2 days

In Aspartame controversy a newly arrived editor user:Keepcalmandcarryon made in the past 2 days 32 edits and or deletions without debate or any consensus from other editors who worked for many weeks on it. On some occasions 2 serious edits within one minute were made, which indicates not much reasoning lies behind it. So far me and another regular editor already contested on Talk a few of his edits, but at the rate he's working, it puts us back many weeks. Can some administrator tell him to keep calm and to respect the consensus among contributing editors. Immortale (talk) 22:28, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Keepcalmandcarryon (let's call him/her keepc for short) is hardly a newly arrived editor. They have been prolific in preventing cruft (let's say, unsubstantiated, unscientific claims) from being added to medical articles. You have been reverted by a number of good faith editors. I think this is purely a content dispute, where one editor, Immortale, is not prevailing in disucssions. OrangeMarlin 22:47, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

As an involved editor (as of yesterday, talk page only) this looks like a controversial topic undergoing active editing. It might be a good idea to slow down a bit, but the "32 edits" are mostly contiguous blocks, not 32 individual reverts or anything.

My impression, jaundiced as it may be, is that this and this provide some useful context. Of course, I had no sooner posted to Talk:Aspartame controversy (to suggest that human studies might deserve at least 1/10th the coverage as rat studies) than I was accused of being an industry propagandist, and Keepcalm labelled an employer of Orwellian doublespeak, so take my ramblings with a grain of acesulfame-K. MastCell  22:58, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

As an uninvolved editor, I would say that if someone is making significant revisions to an article, it's often better to do them as many individual edits, rather than one or two big ones. That way, it's easier for other editors to revert or revise particular changes they don't agree with. Also, if text is being moved around, isolating the 'move edit' from any others makes changes easier to follow in the diffs. Wasted Time R (talk) 23:38, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Mast, obviously, as his view represents reality ;):):) I do feel this article should be on probation or something (I know this usually isn't for AN/I to decide, just commenting) as it seems to be up here every week. Maybe protect it? Sticky Parkin 23:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

As I explained on the talk page immediately after making my first (and most bold) edits, and later in additional comments on the talk page, the much-criticised results from one primary research article had been turned into what was essentially an article of its own. In my recent edits, I sought to return some proper weight to the article. I have also insisted that sources be verifiable, as claims had been made and attributed to sources (primary sources) that did not make such claims. I feel that my actions were properly explained in my edit summaries and in discussion on the talk page, and I don't understand why this ANI was brought...nor why I was not informed of it. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 23:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Of course I should have known that neutral comments by neutral administrators are hard to find here. user:Keepcalmandcarryon is a newly arrived editor to the Aspartame controversy and some of his edits were deleting complete paragraphs. Keep playing your "my-scientific-career-is-over-but-at-least-I-can-make-myself-feel-important-on-Misplaced Pages". You might want to read what propaganda actually means. I suggest you start with George Orwell's 1984. I know that aspartame use influences the short term memory, but MastCell already started editing the article on the 12th of January: ] user:Keepcalmandcarryon pretends he corrected the article in the interest of Misplaced Pages, but all his serious edits were done in the critical parts of the article. The article that is supposed to describe and explain a real controversy is an attempt to denigrate and downsize the criticism, even when fully sourced and having plenty of impartial weight. Good luck with your games, I'm out of here. Immortale (talk) 23:31, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

You have gotten some neutral observers here, and more may follow. I explicitly identified myself as involved. You're correct that I did edit the article back on the 12th - we even had a chat about it. I'd forgotten, though I don't think it changes the points I made. While the article is entitled aspartame controversy, that is not a license to ignore WP:WEIGHT.

I also think that your approach is bound to fail because it admits no common ground. I say: "The rat study should be mentioned, but not given undue weight." You say: "Of course you want to delete the rat study because you don't like the results." I say: "I share your suspicion of industry-funded research." You say: "You're an industry propagandist and Orwellian failed scientist." That approach is probably viscerally satisfying in the short-term, but in the long-term it leads, well, here. MastCell  23:48, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Immortale, I hate to tell you this, but no one owns these articles, and we aren't forced to stick with certain topics. I have no clue how I ended up at the article, but it's probably because I stalk MastCell's editing (and about another 100 different science and medical editors) on here. We watch over any medical article to make certain that NPOV is followed. Moreover, Keepc and many of us have debated ad infinitum with you at Talk:Aspartame controversy, so any of our edits are open for discussion. You need to chill out and not make false accusations against editors and admins. OrangeMarlin 01:01, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

"Moreover, Keepc and many of us have debated ad infinitum with you at Talk:Aspartame controversy". Keepcalmandcarryon placed 4 reactions on the Talk Page (after his first day of manic editing), of which only one was directed to me. There were no discussions but a repetition of random wikipedia statements. His third post on Talk, he falsely claimed that I had removed or reverted his edits, which truthfully, did not touched a single one of them (you guys talk about accusations). His other posts were directed to User:ImperfectlyInformed. Interesting to see that you call this "debated ad infinitum". When it comes to your contributions to the "debate", I only count you once on Talk:Aspartame controversy. Now, of course it's plausible you could have made a Freudian slip and thinking of other accounts that hide the same people or friends, but I don't want to make more accusations. And it's exactly these twists in reasoning that I got fed up with. In the beginning Misplaced Pages was a great democracy, where everyone was equal, but just like with our democracy, eventually elites started to form who took certain privileges and hold each other's hands over each other's heads. "No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?" - George Orwell, Animal Farm Immortale (talk) 14:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Immortale, you don't help your case by raising comments like "my-scientific-career-is-over-but-at-least-I-can-make-myself-feel-important-on-Misplaced Pages" or referring to Orwell. Speaking only for myself, I generally trust MastCell's view on things. If you want to persuade me to even look at the dispute on the possibility that you might be right, you'd be well off to avoid such comments in the future. (And my career is nowhere near over.) Thatcher 03:40, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Reference desk comment

Hi,

With reference to this edit, the editor claims to be doing is illegal (and as its an IP edit, it would be theoretically possible to inform the "victim")?

Cheers, davidprior /_c 23:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

P.S. Very sorry if this is the wrong place to mention this, but seeing this edit just made me a wee bit concerned

we're not the police... unless he's talking about creating some kind of immediate threat or harm (suicide, hacking the nuclear sites to start WW3, etc) I don't think we need to run around doing that. I believe there is one or more users extolling the virtues of illegal substances on their user pages too.. but its not violating any wikipedia policies or guidelines.--Crossmr (talk) 01:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Looks like a history of trouble from this particular IP. Grsz 01:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi. It's standard practice to inform a user if they are the subject of an AN/I thread, just an FYI for next time. Secondly, the technical legality of my internet connections is frankly none of your business, and certainly not an issue that requires administrative attention; it's not Misplaced Pages's job to ensure people are abiding to the laws of whatever country they happen to be in. Indeed, there have been several cases where users committing possibly illegal activities have even been encouraged to do so. 82.43.88.87 (talk) 19:57, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

GeorgeHimmler baiting OrangeMarlin in honour of Dr. B. R. Lang's uncle

GeorgeHimmler (talk · contribs) seems to require some admin action. A stern warning (at least) for User:Dr. B. R. Lang might also be in order. --Hans Adler (talk) 00:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I've blocked GeorgeHimmler (talk · contribs) as an apparent alternate account created specifically to attack another user. I will leave further actions up to other admins if any are felt to be necessary. MastCell  00:52, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

But his attack on my user page was so well written, that I'm disappointed that I won't be able to read anything further from him. Note his use of "Himmler" in his name. I probably shouldn't read too much into it.  :) OrangeMarlin 00:57, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

One of Heinrich's illegitimate nephews. Baseball Bugs 01:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Codec pack "official" sites

I'm having trouble working out what the "official" site is for dubious-legality codec packs including the following:

• K-Lite Codec Pack‎
• QuickTime Alternative‎
• QT Lite‎
• Real Alternative

Anonymous contributors keep changing the official URL from codecguide.com to codecnews.com, and I can't find any definitive statement as to the actual creator of the codecs. Any insight would be most appreciated. - Mark 01:24, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

None of them look notable in the least, I'd just prod/AFD them. Mr.Z-man 02:06, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorted. —Travis 02:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Codecs don't fit under any speedy criteria. Schuym1 (talk) 03:58, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Restored per lack of sleep as noted in another section below. Sorry about that, folks. —Travis 13:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

They could be speedied under G11 if blatantly promotional... – ukexpat (talk) 19:14, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Ten O'Clock Classics

semi-protected

I've asked over at WP:RFP for long term semi-protection of this article due to some persistent IP-initiated BLP violations. I'm cross-posting here because the matter has been on AN/I at least twice, and may be too compicated for a simple RFP request. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 02:15, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

TLDR. No, just kidding. I'm not familiar with the ongoing dispute, but it does seem that the article should be protected for, I figure, six months or more. Hopefully someone less sleep-deprived than I can sort it out. —Travis 02:25, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Here's the condensed version. Misplaced Pages good. BLP vio bad. Non-notable individuals are our friends. Non-notable individual's arrest record not our friends. Need admin rescue. Jimbo would approve. Wikidemon (talk) 03:07, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Yet another PoliticianTexas sock: HoyaFan!

HoyaFan! (talk · contribs · logs · block log) is probably a sock puppet of community-banned editor PoliticianTexas (talk · contribs) (PolTx for short). PolTx has generated several dozen known sock puppets. The last was DianaRuiz (talk · contribs) who was blocked 00:57, 22 Jan; the HoyaFan! account was created 07:24, 23 Jan, and edits primarily pages which have also been edited by PolTx. This seems unlikely to be a coincidence. Some more specifics:

• HoyaFan! made two edits to Espanola, New Mexico, which is a PolTx favorite and has been edited mostly by the known PolTx socks DeLaCueva (talk · contribs), LamyQ (talk · contribs), Colorado Lover (talk · contribs), ABQster (talk · contribs), Martinez07 (talk · contribs), BradlyRM (talk · contribs), Evhs00 (talk · contribs); suspected socks TeranceRamirez (talk · contribs), and Dowhatyoudo (talk · contribs) and by PoliticianTexas (talk · contribs) himself.
  • One edit, the story about the Obama visit, which was updated by HoyaFan!, was added to the article by LamyQ (talk · contribs), a known PolTx sock. HoyaFan! diff, LamyQ diff
  • The other edit was to show the party affiliations of city councilors, also a PolTx favorite subject: HoyaFan! diff, TrentZee diff. TrentZee (talk · contribs) is a known PolTx sock.
• HoyaFan! made 5 edits to List of New Mexico Activities Association championships, which was recently split from New Mexico Activities Association, which is a PolTx favorite; the latter article has been edited recently by known PolTx socks TrentZee (talk · contribs), JWillems (talk · contribs), and AndrewGirron (talk · contribs).
• Characteristic capitalization of most words in edit summaries, for example HoyaFan! diff, HoyaFan! diff, DianaRuiz diff, JosephTatum diff. DianaRuiz (talk · contribs) and JosephTatum (talk · contribs) are known PolTx socks.

How about a block on this editor? Thanks. --Uncia (talk) 04:26, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

HoyaFan! is now blocked indef as a sock of PoliticianTexas. EdJohnston (talk) 05:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

User:Wiarthurhu wants to be unbanned

I present, for your reading pleasure, perhaps the latest chapter in a story long since commenced:

• a "hypothetical" conversation...
• ...pointing me to Wiarthurhu

Personally, I'm unwilling to recommend for unbanning someone who claims to have been simply blocked, when it appears to have been, based on my perusal of the boards, a community ban. I seem to be the second administrator approached on this topic.

On the other hand, this account appears to have some reasonable contributions over more than a year and has stayed under the radar.

I really don't care about the outcome, but I'm certainly not going to act unilaterally. Perhaps some folks who were around for the previous discussions regarding Wiarthurhu could chime in? Jclemens (talk) 05:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

So, essentially, a ban-evading sock puppet is requesting that its master account's ban be lifted? --Dynaflow babble 05:58, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Seems that way from here. We can't really do much if it was a community ban without said puppet revealing the identity of the master account. If as the sock says it was an editor of 2+ years good standing who wants to be unblocked then I think the reaction will most likely be a unanimous 'aww hell no'. Any editor with that much experience who is banned tends to accrue a significant amount of ANI action on the way. Ironholds (talk) 11:06, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I am opposed to the indef ban of the original count. It seems to me disproportionate. Kittybrewster ☎ 12:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

From what I understand: He/she was community banned. After pleading he/she (for the purposes of this convo, he) was unbanned, and from the start violated the conditions of his unban. After a second chance he was caught using socks to work around it. Sounds proportionate to me. Ironholds (talk) 13:32, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

User:EstherLois

• EstherLois (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

EstherLois is a sockpuppet of indef community banned User:Pastorwayne and is rapidly creating fresh categories. Kittybrewster ☎ 12:00, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

What does this mean? EstherLois (talk) 16:24, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

It means that you're believed to be a sock puppet of an editor who is not permitted to edit Misplaced Pages because of their disruptive history. Don't know about anyone else's view, but in my eyes this quacks, but not immensely loudly - perhaps that's because I don't have a great deal of knowledge of User:Pastorwayne's history, but from a comparison of the number, nature and type of edits they do look alarmingly alike..._Gb 16:37, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Jc37 made a helpful summary of Pastorwayne's activity in User:Jc37/Tracking/Pastorwayne. I have notified Jc37 of this discussion to see if he wants to comment. See also Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Pastorwayne. Since the checkuser data on Pastorwayne is stale, the decision about EstherLois may have to be made on behavioral grounds. EdJohnston (talk) 17:06, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I am certain this is PastorWayne (on behavioural grounds). A glance through EstherLois talk shows by the number of red-linked categories and by the number of irritated comments that EL's efforts are not wholly successful. (PW's crimes were to create religious categories of dubious value at such a rate that cfd was overwhelmed, and to pay no attention to the views of other editors. PW also never made edit summaries.) Occuli (talk) 17:26, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Plus the denial of awareness of the identical behavioral issues. I propose he be indef community banned for Pastorwayne-like disruption. Kittybrewster ☎ 17:58, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Having looked at Jc37's page, EstherLois has been listed there since at least January 2008 as an "active clone" of Pastorwayne. This appears to be the first second report to any administrative venue about the user.. The first report a couple days ago to WP:SP came up with a result of "stale". GRBerry 20:05, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

EstherLois was not particularly active at first; their first 500 edits took from Jan to Jul 2008. Their last 500 edits have occurred this week including over 100 new categories; and these are turning up at cfd with increasing frequency as indicated by their talk page and also by the above link. I expect EstherLois will now disappear and another 'new' editor will spring up and fiddle obsessively at great speed with religious categories. Occuli (talk) 21:38, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I have indefblocked and sockpuppet tagged EstherLois. The duck quacked, and floats. Please note any other new accounts on ANI and I or other admins can respond... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Possible copyright infringement by unresponsive new editor

92.10.126.204 (talk · contribs) has repeatedly cut-and-pasted this entire page into the Rwandan Genocide article. As a note to those unaware of the situation, the RC article gets an occasional anonymous genocide denier pop-up here and there and insert fringe theories about how "this was not a genocide, rather it was ". The above cut-and-pasted external article is exactly that and the IP editor has proceeded to comb through the entire RC article and add question marks behind every occurance of the word genocide or change the word genocide to "genocide/civil war". I reverted him twice and left a message on his talk page but he is not responding and keeps reinserting the copyvio and questioning the assertion of genocide within the article. I do feel that his edits are disruptive but I don't feel comfortable reverting further without a second opinion in case I'm wrong. Big Bird (talk • contribs) 14:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Seems wrong to me; consider that your second opinion. Revert and ask him to take up issues on the talkpage before making massive edits. Ironholds (talk) 14:40, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I've reverted and issued a warning. Stifle (talk) 15:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

User:Jeffrey Pierce Henderson

This user continues to attack other editors on his talk page, even while blocked.. He already has several last warnings and one admin who is supporting an indef block. --Komrade Kiev (talk) 16:00, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Eh, he certainly looks mad, but I was expecting something a lot more blatant and actionable when I saw this posting here. I don't see anything too out of the ordinary--no reason for unblock, but nothing to extend over. Jclemens (talk) 16:06, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I think the length of the block is too short for someone who had 2 last warnings and who knows how many other warnings. I just saw that he continues to be beligerant even after he's blocked. Shouldn't a block stop people from continuing to disrupt Misplaced Pages after they're blocked? I'm kinda new here so if I'm wrong, sorry.--Komrade Kiev (talk) 18:00, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

They can still edit their talk page to request unblock. If they're not doing that, it should be protected until the block ends. Nm, block has ended. If he's still being crass/rude, a longer block is justified. -Jeremy 20:56, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I was the original blocker (for the 48 hour duration), but am recommending (along with a few others noted on the subjects talk page) that an indefinite block is called for, as it is apparent that JPH is unable to restrain himself from making personal attacks. OhNoitsJamie 22:40, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Block required: 70.23.234.194

As per this WQA and this recent racist comment deserves an immediate block, IMHO. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 16:04, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Obviously an obnoxious person who would be entirely unwelcome here, but the edits are from a major ISP (Verizon) and came in a single clump six days ago. A block at this time would likely just inconvenience innocent parties. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Bah. My bad. Been away so long, I trusted that a new post to WQA was related to a current situation. *bangs head on table* (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 16:59, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Watchlist

Sorry I came here, but it's the best place to get the most replies. What's wrong with the watchlists? It's showing every edit made to pages. It used to show the last edit made to a page. Now it shows all of the last edits made. Also, is there a way to get rid of the rollback button on the watchlist? I'm afraid I'll click it accidentally a lot. :-P iMatthew // talk // 16:15, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Preferences -> Watchlist -> Expand watchlist to show all applicable changes (uncheck it). As far as removing the rollback button... Maybe with a monobook hack. Or I could remove your rollback if you like ;> –xeno (talk) 16:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Awful good thing there is a confirmation for the block button.--Tznkai (talk) 16:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh man, and I just checked that, not over an hour ago. I thought it was something else. Well, now that my stupidity has been established, thanks Xeno. If anyone finds a way to get rollback off of it, let me know! ;-) iMatthew // talk // 16:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

check out Misplaced Pages:WikiProject User scripts/Scripts and maybe make a request with the wikiproject if you don't find one. We have a lot of wizards who can hack you up a solution in a couple minutes. –xeno (talk) 16:26, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I wrote a quick and dirty script that does the trick. To use it, simply add the following line to your monobook: importScript('User:Gary King/hide rollback in watchlist.js'); Gary King (talk) 17:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Account

Hi, I created the account Alouatta palliata palliata, but I don't like this username and want to choose a shorter one. So I want this account to be blocked indefinitely so that I can create a new username which will be my permanent account from now. Thanks. Alouatta palliata palliata (talk) 16:59, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• You may go to WP:CHU to have your username changed easily (while eliminating this old account, in a manner of speaking). Protonk (talk) 17:03, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Why not just use your old account of User:Otolemur crassicaudatus? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:07, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Because I lost password. Alouatta palliata palliata (talk) 17:14, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

You can have the new one emailed to yourself. Go to login, put in your username, select 'email new password'. //roux   17:17, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I do not have email enabled. Please block this account per user request. I will create the permanent account and will mention my previous identity in that account. I want to remove this account and its contributions. Alouatta palliata palliata (talk) 17:26, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Not really necessary (you could've just abandoned the account), but because you think it important, this is  Done –xeno (talk) 17:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism/sockpuppetry at Jimbo's userpage

//roux   18:29, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

There's ongoing vandalism at User:Jimbo Wales, in frequent edits similar to this. I've reverted this vandalism four times (confessing to a 3RR violation) on Jimbo's userpage, so as much as I want to go further in fighting this vandalism, I can go no further. And here's another element: sockpuppetry. Over five accounts – Shakira 68 plus one (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Bikiwiki star (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Some 1 AKA someone (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), I really don't care who (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), and A s0ck of someone (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) among at least two others – have performed this vandalism on the same page. I think Shakira 68 plus one is the sockmaster because it was the account that performed the vandalism first. --Dylan620 _{Hark unto me} 18:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

3RR doesn't apply to vandalism-reversion; if it did, nobody would ever be able to get anything done. Jimbo's page is a fairly common target — I say let 'em continue: all he's doing is making our job easier. HalfShadow 18:25, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Disruption by banned User:DavidYork71

Banned user DavidYork71 (talk · contribs) has returned and continued disruption. Seeking independent review and action with the latest incarnation, ThankYouDianetics (talk · contribs).

He shows up with various sock accounts to the GA article Project Chanology and/or its talk page with the exact same disruptive behavior each time, changing "ongoing" to "was", and other obviously disruptive edits - example.

Prior actions by other administrators: , ,

Most recent diff by ThankYouDianetics (talk · contribs) - .

I think WP:RBI is the best way to go here. Cirt (talk) 19:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Blocked as an obvious sock. J.delanoy_adds 20:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Problems at The King's Consort

There is currently a problem at The King's Consort involving an edit war surrounding the dismissal of Robert King as music director (a high profile pedophilia case resulted in his removal). User:Jbl5988 (talk) has reverted at least four editors within a 24 hour period at least six times after being warned repeatedly about the 3RR rule. I would have just reported it to the 3RR board if this case also didn't potentially involve sockpuppets and/or COI. The following IPs, User:84.59.16.14 and 81.253.40.180, have made similar reversions and both trace back to Dusseldorf. Given the situation I thought it best to get help here. Thanks.Nrswanson (talk) 20:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• All three users have been notified of the discussion here. I had also left several prior messages about the problem on User talk:Jbl5988, asking him/her to please communicate with other editors on the article talk page, but there has been no response. Nor does the editor leave edit summaries. The only time an edit summary was left (by User:84.59.16.14), it was deliberately misleading, describing the deletion of an entire paragraph plus its references as an "important update" . Voceditenore (talk) 21:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

(EC) 81. isn't participating in the edit-war whatsoever (unless there's been some edits that've had to be oversighted); 84. is. Jbl and 84. each blocked 24 hours for edit-warring; I suggest you take this up to WP:SPI. -Jeremy 21:49, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

81 is definitely not edit-warring, and in fact supports the retention of the material. The other IP was User:84.58.241.211, who made the initial deletion. Voceditenore (talk) 21:59, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Template:Sexual orientation content dispute

Hi, I want to avoid 3rr here. A user is looking to insert content on this template which has seen similar issues prior of adding articles regarding sexuality to this template. I may have come across too strong so would like, presuming someone agrees that consensus should be sought here, if someone else would look at this and encourage discussion. -- Banjeboi 22:01, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• Would I be correct in saying this is the diff and Perceived sexual orientation the "disputed" entry? Protonk (talk) 22:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
• Looks to me like Perceived sexual orientation belongs there, as it is a valid topic when discussing sexual orientation, and perception colours a lot of how sexual orientations are presented and received. //roux   22:34, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

If you want to avoid 3RR, don't revert. Seriously, this is a content dispute. You say so in your header, even. This is not the place for content disputes, please try dispute resolution. KillerChihuahua 22:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have spelled out more. A user who has had a history of being extra bold and perhaps edit-warring in regards to this template is again adding content after it's been removed even though this scenario has been played out out a few times. I would rather not warn and revert them myself as I'm am involved in the issue. Here is the talk page discussion where you'll note a consensus of one. I am seeking that their addition simply be approved first before being re-added. The article in question, Perceived sexual orientation, sounds good but it needs a lot of work before its inclusion on the template, IMHO. This has been a similar concern with other articles that was the source of a long process to get the current template version. If concensus is that the article, as is, is perfect for the template, then great, if not, that's great too, but let's not edit war over it. -- Banjeboi 22:57, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't including the article on the template put more eyeballs on the article, thus driving more improvements? //roux   23:04, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

By that theory dozens of problematic articles would already be on that and every other template. I guess the closest concern from the guidelines is If the articles are not established as related by reliable sources in the actual articles, then it is probably not a good idea to interlink them. That particular article was created twenty days ago, and renamed since and is very much in need of notability and sourcing. It's got some fairly significant issues that, IMHO, preclude its inclusion at this time. That last articles added, Environment and sexual orientation and Non-heterosexual were both greatly improved before consensus was that they were reliably sourced. Templates could be used to drive traffic to articles in dire need but in this template i would certainly advise against it. -- Banjeboi 23:25, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Let's remember that this is an encyclopedic template and topics are not included on it based on their need for improvement. It's not a general-maintenance-consider-helping-out-on-these-pages thing. – Steel 23:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Pageban...?

Oh look, Cooljuno again. I think there is cause for a pageban here. Every time Cooljuno touches this template there's an edit war and an argument on the talk page. See the edit war in October (talk page discussion), this big one in July/August (talk page discussion), and another last March. This POV fork appeared in October when he didn't get his way on the main template. Two previous blocks haven't solved the problem.
The underlying issue is that Cooljuno has very strong views on this topic and how information relating to it should be presented - views which are frequently not shared by any other editor here, the media, or academia. His responses to objections exacerbate things since they're often irrelevant, flawed or just nonsensical . I invite discussion. – Steel 23:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I honestly think they mean well just mistake the whole working together thing as a mere suggestion rather than a core principle. I'd rather see a stern warning about edit-warring as that doesn't help thoughtful discussion. Sexuality issues, in general, seem to stir the passions in editors so extra caution would seem to make sense. Cooljuno, IMHO, has the markings of someone who's accustomed to more rough and tumble online venues and needs to dial down a bit when on wikipedia. I wonder if a restriction on reverting of some sort may be more helpful? -- Banjeboi 23:54, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

ScienceApologist continuing misconduct

User:ScienceApologist continues to generate complaints from editors who have better things to do.

• ScienceApologist has again been criticized for making personal attacks against individuals, see "BLP violation" and "Problem with Paton" . Both User:KillerChihuahua and ScienceApologist have tried to justify the contentious remarks by confusing an author's sources with the individual. WP:BLP clearly forbids contentious remarks about individuals, even in talk pages. A previous ArbCom found against SA, that "ScienceApologist has deprecated a number of persons and their theories" We may disagree with people, but we don't denigrate them.
• Since becoming the subject of an ArbCom case on Dec 29, 2009, ScienceApologist has received complaints:

• In an earlier AN/I on a series of AfDs., plus further complaints.
• Restoring poor sources, even though discussed otherwise with another editor.
• Tagging articles with poor or contentious category tags.
• Trying to make major changes guidelines with no conensus.
• Being disruptive.
• 3RR warning.
• Even more editor warring."Identified flying object"
• Reverting other editors' changes without discussion."Atropa belladonna"

• The current ArbCom case,, the long list of blocks,, and the many previous Arbcom cases, shows that these are not isolated incidents, and ScienceApologist is not picked upon by just one or two disgruntled editors. --81.131.6.69 (talk) 23:53, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Welcome back, Mr. Phi. Skinwalker (talk) 23:58, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

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