Talk:Henry Siegman: Difference between revisions

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	:Please keep this to . ] (]) 23:26, 3 February 2009 (UTC)		:Please keep this to . ] (]) 23:26, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

			*I believe that editors coming to this page ought to understand the extend of falsehood being published on Misplaced Pages. Quotations that have been verified as bogus by the New York Times are unencclopedic. If ] and ] are sincere in their protestations that they wish to uphold Misplaced Pages standards fo rreliable, souced nformation, they will insert information form the New York times establishing that the quote it a fabrication. Their failure to do so established that they are simply interested in using Misplaced Pages to promote anti-Israel propaganda.] (]) 02:16, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

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A fact from Henry Siegman appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know column on 19 June 2008 (check views). A record of the entry may be seen at Misplaced Pages:Recent additions/2008/June.

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Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL Henry Siegman search -- (

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His age

I looked, but couldn't find anything about his age. He was a child early in WWII, so he probably was born in the 1930s. Bebestbe (talk) 01:10, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Done. Mhym (talk) 01:24, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

How to handle the bogus quotation

This page has for some while contained a quotation form Henry Siegman that contains a Moshe Ya'alon bogus quotation. The New York Times ssays its a fake. I added a sectence poointing this out. I first put it into the criticism section. It was removed by USER:Nbauman. so I put it back right under the boqus quotation. It does seem odd for the article to have the quotation, without a note explaining that it is a fake.Historicist (talk) 15:37, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

WP:NPOV is one of the strongest, non-negotiable rules. According to WP:NPOV, specifically WP:ASF "Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves," and also under WP:MORALIZE "Resist the temptation to apply labels or moralize—readers will probably not take kindly to being told what to think. Let the facts speak for themselves and let the reader decide."

The issue is attribution. You may think that the quote "has been demonstrated to be a fabrication," but that's your opinion. When you write an entry for Misplaced Pages, Misplaced Pages will be saying whatever you write. Misplaced Pages doesn't say that someone is fabricating, in its own voice. Misplaced Pages only quotes people who believes that it is a fabrication. If you want to rewrite it attributing it to a source, that's OK. If you simply state it as Misplaced Pages's opinion, it will come out. If I don't delete it, somebody else will.

These rules are enforced particularly strongly in a biography of a living person. See WP:BLP. Nbauman (talk) 17:41, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Just for the record, it's not my opinion, it's the opinion of the New York Times that this quote cannot be found to exist. The New York Times searched fo rit for three weeks, and gave the op-ed author threee weeks to find it before subjecting him to the public humiliation of printed corrections both in the Times and in the Herald Trib.Historicist (talk) 21:29, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

The New York Times says only that the quotation is widely repeated, could not be verified, and does not appear in the source it is normally attributed to. It does not say that the quote was fabricated, is inaccurate, or that it reverses what Ya'alon meant. It is reasonable to cite the Times for the proposition that the quote Siegman was repeating could not, in a different context, be sourced. However, it is WP:SYNTHESIS to use an unrelated article to criticize Siegman.Wikidemon (talk) 21:45, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Removed again. This edit had no references, and still uses inflammatory language. Please read WP:RS, WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT before continuing. If it's an issue worthy of inclusion in a BLP, then surely you can find neutral 3rd party sources? Surely such a fabrication would have brought the wroth of his peers in journalism and possible civil suits? If there's no outcry of this, aside from the extremist sources you found - perhaps you might consider that it's too minor an issue - or simply not an issue. GrizzledOldMan (talk) 21:58, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

criticism - removed section - explanation

Removed the section for the following reasons:

WP:BLP - "We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high quality references." - see below, it all comes back to this, in the end.
WP:coatrack - use of the Middle East Quarterly "article" (note sarcastic quotation marks - really, it's a special character)isn't appropriate in a BLP. It's far too biased. Surely if this criticism is so widespread, a neutral third party covering the controversy can be found? Coatrack articles aren't appropriate for BLPs.
WP:RS - "Opinion pieces are only reliable for statements as to the opinion of their authors, not for statements of fact" - use of editorials is not appropriate in a BLP. 3 of 4 sources in this section are editorials. If he is the subject of widespread controversy, then neutral 3rd party sources can easily be found which cover the issue. Editorials are about opinions, not the news. BLPs don't benefit from a few opinions. Facts - that's what Wiki is about.
WP:WEIGHT - undue weight given to a few critical sources. Clearly lacking in balance. Complete lack of representation of sources contesting the "anti-Israeli" claims.

This section needs a re-write. Removed the section in its entirety, as it breaks multiple WP:BLP guidelines.

Posted to WP:BLPN as well, if someone wishes to contest this. GrizzledOldMan (talk) 01:03, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

The same issue affects at least ~~three~~ five articles right now - I'm posting links over at BLP/N, and wonder if the discussions should be consolidated.Wikidemon (talk) 07:01, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

BLPN does not seem to be working. I have referred the matter to AN/I here. Wikidemon (talk) 23:00, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Defending falsehood on Misplaced Pages

So, the argument being made by the users writing above is that there is no problem with slandering Moshe Ya'alon by allowing this page to carry a defamatory quotation atrributed him to him by Henry Siegman to appear on this page even though the New York Times has determined that the quote is BOGUS.Historicist (talk) 23:13, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Please keep this to AN/I. GrizzledOldMan (talk) 23:26, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I believe that editors coming to this page ought to understand the extend of falsehood being published on Misplaced Pages. Quotations that have been verified as bogus by the New York Times are unencclopedic. If User:GrizzledOldMan and USER:Wikidemon are sincere in their protestations that they wish to uphold Misplaced Pages standards fo rreliable, souced nformation, they will insert information form the New York times establishing that the quote it a fabrication. Their failure to do so established that they are simply interested in using Misplaced Pages to promote anti-Israel propaganda.Historicist (talk) 02:16, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

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