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	| '''This account has been ] from editing Misplaced Pages.'''<br /><small>(info: • ] • ] • • )</small>		| '''This account has been ] from editing Misplaced Pages.'''<br /><small>(info: • ] • ] • • )</small>
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	==Administrators' Noticeboard==
	Note: As a discussion of Moulton's block is ongoing at ], I've unprotected this page so that Moulton can comment on-wiki rather than being confined to email or offsite postings. ''']'''&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 17:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Note that as the size of the above discussion now exceeds 200 KB, ] has relocated it to a new subpage at ]. Unfortunately the prior history page does not migrate along, so the history is now in two fragments, before and after the move. —] (]) 20:19, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	:''Sigh.'' The subpage with ] is languishing without fresh community input, in part because the stub paragraph on the main AN page got swept away early on by the robot. It seems the robot didn't know enough to monitor for activity in the subpage. ] (]) 06:29, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
	== ] ==
	* ] (August - September 2007)
	* ] (November - December 2007)
	* ] (June 2008)
	== Biographical Information ==
	I am currently a in the . My long-term field of research is the . I am currently working on the role of as a traditional method of learning.
	I am also a in the .
	My other affiliations include the at the University of Memphis and the at Utah State University where I assist in the curriculum in .
	I was formerly a Visiting Scientist in the Educational Technology Research Group at BBN Systems and Technologies. Additional professional background information can be found .
	My interest in writing encyclopedia articles in my areas of expertise dates back to 2004 when I co-authored an 8-page article entitled in the ''''. My newest effort at crafting an encyclopedia article is on Google Knol, where I have prepared an article based on 25 years worth of original research on .
	Some of my other research interests include , , and the .
	I have a , a , and a personal blog called . There is also a collection of essays and lighter pieces on .
	==Objectives==
	My primary objective here is to achieve a respectable level of accuracy, excellence, and ] in online media, especially when the subject at hand is an identifiable living person.
	My secondary objective is to examine the efficacy of the process and the quality of the product achieved by any given policy, culture, or organizational architecture.
	My tertiary objective is to identify and propose functional improvements to systems that are demonstrably falling short of ].
	==Status==
	As of June 16th, I was under a suspended indefinite block that was imposed on September 11, 2007, by ] as a result of an ] brought against me by ]. At that time, I was ''not'' seeking to be unblocked. Rather ] of the circumstances surrounding my encounter with the ]. —] 03:52, July 27, 2008
	On May 15th, ] initiated a discussion on ] calling for a review of the case, in the wake of an ] involving an edit war between and ] over ] the latter sought to publish in contravention of ] on ] — a page that had been .
	] is a former member of ArbCom who posted on ] an open invitation to me to send him E-Mail presenting my case.
	After a few rounds of E-Mail, Sam Korn has ].
	His view is that the ] and its aftermath were flawed:
	<Blockquote>''What is important here is that the action taken was not wholly appropriate: that is indicative of the process being wrong. I don't know who Moulton would like to make this statement: I for one am happy to say "no, we didn't get this one quite right".''</Blockquote>
	This is a major step towards recognizing and rectifying the problem as I perceived it.
	I would also like to acknowledge the significant roles played by ] and ] in the WP:AN discussions, and the instrumental role that ] played in bringing the issues to wider public awareness through the medium of the ] Skypecasts.
	] (]) 07:08, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
	On May 25th, ] initiated and filed , requesting that ArbCom help sort out the many troubling issues that had resurfaced in the course of the community-wide discussion at ]. —] (]) 19:26, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
	On May 29th, after four days, ] as untimely, with a vote tally of (0/4/1/1). —] (]) 13:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
	On June 16th, ] summarily without notice, without hearing, and without affording me a chance to present a defense to specious charges leveled by ] and his allies in the WikiClique on Intelligent Design. I am currently seeking a high-level review of circumstances leading up to that block. —] 03:52, July 27, 2008
	On August 14th, ] contacted me by E-Mail and requested that I send him a list of problematic BLPs, related articles, and other non-article space pages to which I have long taken exception. The list of atrocious BLPs ''et al'' are . —] (]) 01:13, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
	==Background==
	For the benefit of those who are directing their attention to my case for the first time, let me provide a little background and perspective...
	An ] against me was brought by ], in the wake of content disputes on five or six of their articles — notably the biographies of ], ], and ], and the articles on ] and ].
	I had been editing barely a week or two in their bailiwick, before ] formally , which he and ] had .
	The ] was dominated by members of the ], who acted as Plaintiff, Arresting Officer, Prosecutor, Bailiff, Judge, Jury, and Executioner. ConfuciusOrnis even on my behalf, and signed my bottom line endorsement to it, taking selected portions of unsigned . I thought that was a tad irregular and ].
	On September 11th, ], who is also a member of the ], ], bypassing the ] process. She gave as , "Disruptive POV OR warrior with no interest in writing an encyclopedia. See Rfc.", overlooking the {fact} that I had ] for a four-volume print encyclopedia.
	] then placed a , giving a different reason ("]") with the link going to ]. If you look at the ], you will discover that the word "vandalism" never appears. Thus both posted reasons for the indefinite block made no sense to me as they were at odds with the facts on the ground and with the content of the charges on the RfC.
	In view of these confusing perplexities, I managed to submit a to ArbCom, asking them to review troubling aspects of my case.
	Note carefully that ''I did not ask to be unblocked''. For all I knew, I ''deserved'' to be blocked for ''some valid reason'', in accordance with some comprehensible review of my alleged transgressions. And so I only asked ArbCom to opine on whether I had been afforded ''diligent due process'' in the course of the RfC.
	begins and concludes as follows:
	{{quotation|
	====Moulton's Reqest to ArbCom====
	I am asking ArbCom to review whether responsible admins participating in my RfC and its aftermath afforded me diligent and conscientious due process, '''without regard to the whether the final outcome would have been justified by a fair exercise of due process'''.
	...
	I am asking ArbCom to investigate and determine whether the allied editors and admins participating in my RfC and its aftermath engaged in a familiar Kafkaesque formulaic script routinely applied to a substantial number of cases similar to this one, without regard for conscientious and due diligence in the exercise of due process.
	...
	I am asking ArbCom to look beyond the details of any single case for a recurring pattern of unfair and draconian treatment that bespeaks an unbecoming trend in the disregard of reasonable standards for the exercise of due process.}}
	ArbCom declined to take up the question.
	] (]) 20:25, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
	==Relevant Discussions==
	{{User_talk:Moulton/Relevant Discussions}}
	Note: The redlinked item above was on June 17, 2008, but a duplicate remains available via the Static Misplaced Pages:
	* (referenced in ], , and ])
	==Previous Attempts at ]==
	I placed a on the talk page of FeloniousMonk:
	{{quotation|'''Request for Ombudsman'''<P>Would you be kind enough to nominate an ombudsman or mediator to resolve a perplexing conflict between myself and ] regarding potential violations of the ] "Do No Harm" clause? I am concerned about the recurring publication of libelous and defamatory falsehoods causing serious harm to scientists and academics with whom I am affiliated. Please feel free to E-Mail me if you need further information. Many thanks.<P>Moulton 23:21, 26 August 2007 (UTC)}}
	] ] on my talk page:
	{{quotation|''']'''
	<P>
	I don't think I can help you out with that since having reviewed the issue, I completely agree with Hrafn42 and Guettarda and disagree with both your position and actions there. My advice is take some time to better learn how Misplaced Pages actually handles these issues then revisit the articles; I think you'll find then your concern is unwarranted. FeloniousMonk 05:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)<P>
	:Is there a ] than you that I can appeal to?
	<P>
	:Is there some way we can talk over the phone so that I can explain to you (or anyone else you care to nominate) what I am concerned about and why? I am frustrated by my inability to get to the ] in this vexatiously crippling rule-bound system, as it only seems to be able to get to what most editors happen to believe, without providing any reliable functional process for getting past misconceptions into the ground truth. Science itself provides such a functional process known as the ], but Misplaced Pages doesn't operate on that paradigm. Instead it operates on an anachronistic rule-based paradigm that wobbles to what the most dominant Misplaced Pages editors believe. When it comes to characterizing living persons, that paradigm is demonstrably fraught with errors that are nigh impossible to fix.
	<P>
	:There are famous cases in history when the vast majority of people held laughable misconceptions. But science is an arduous process, and many dedicated scientists have suffered grievously for having the temerity to displace a popular misconception with a superior theory grounded in evidence and reasoning.
	<P>
	:Getting people to honestly question their assumptions and conscientiously examine both their assumptions and the evidence for them is one of the recurring challenges in science education.
	<P>
	:As a science educator, it pains me beyond words to observe how badly we have failed to inculcate a scientific mindset into the educable public.
	<P>
	:Moulton 13:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC) }}
	And I reported that on the :
	{{quotation|... I'd suggest that you seek help. I'm very concerned: whenever I see someone in obvious mental torment and disarray I can but hope they seek proper treatment. •Jim62sch• 19:06, 25 August 2007 (UTC)<P>
	:In fact, I am seeking help from a referee, mediator, or ombudsman to help resolve a vexing conflict with a combative and confused adversary. —Moulton 23:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)</P>}}
	I placed a :
	{{quotation|'''Third Opinion Request''' by Moulton<P>
	:2. ] - Dispute over how to label a controversial unnamed petition that was later given pejorative/misleading names. 03:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
	:3. ] - Dispute over inclusion of controversial content that harmfully mischaracterizes a living person. 03:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
	<P>
	:4. ] - Dispute over adding a section to examine and question the reliability of the sources of harmful mischaracterization. 03:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)}}
	] ] on the Picard bio talk page:
	{{quotation|''']'''
	<P>
	A request was posted for a third opinion on three disputes here:
	<P>
	:* The name of the petition
	:* Moulton & ]
	:* Proposed Intervening Section on "Controversial New York Times Story"
	<P>
	Because more than two editors are involved and ] is rather scarce, the request is not within the guidelines for ]. I hope other (including participants lightening up, backing off and cooling down) means of ] avail. — ] ] 08:28, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
	<P>
	See also: ]. — ] ] 08:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)}}
	] and ] duly posted on :
	{{quotation|'''Rosalind Picard'''<P>
	* {{article|Rosalind Picard}}
	<P>
	A crisis is brewing about Rosalind Picard. The basic dispute revolves around whether the ] is a ] and ] source, and involves appearance on the ] ] petition. ] is now threatening to publish in the outside media at least two articles which are critical of Misplaced Pages's handling of this matter. I have rough drafts of these articles as well as contact information for Moulton, and a large number of emails on this subject. Several administrators have already been involved in trying to resolve this. I need someone to assist and look into this matter.--] 14:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
	<P>
	:I've offered to mediate on the talk page. ] 22:13, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
	<P>
	::The "Dissent from Darwinism" article is a great example of the obsessive coverage of the "creation/evolution controversy" here on WP. This is a petition with 700 signatures yet its article is much longer and better referenced than many on genuine scientific topics. On Ms Picard's article half of the space is taken up by the "controversy" about her signing it. The point of the controversy in her case is that her field is computer science, not life science. ] 02:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
	<P>
	There are reasons for this, obviously. For example: '''(1)''' When I first came to Misplaced Pages, and tried to help on ], it was very clear to me that with the ] trolls constantly attacking the real science articles, we would not be able to make progress unless we built up the articles on the ] to deal with this onslaught. And so I helped make subsiduary articles and articles on various aspects of the controversy. '''(2)''' The articles are actually not so high quality if you look at them, except for one or two exceptions. The ] article and the ] article are in pretty sad shape for major articles. ] barely managed to make FA and this was through tremendous efforts. The other articles on intelligent design and creationism are in general not so high quality. '''(3)''' In addition, people are interested in this controversy, and therefore there is more input and more people helping. '''(4)''' It is an area where people are confused, and are badly in need of careful documentation. There are many good books on Biology or Genetics or Physics. There are very few that organize and sort through this confused mass of information on the controversy, and most of those are quite partisan and show only one side or the other, and it is something that is important in people's lives and something people are confused about. '''Conclusion''' There are obviously many other reasons. I suspect strongly that the progress made in the last few months on the ] article and related articles is due in large part to the development of more and better articles about the controversy itself, deflecting attacks from the main science articles. A similar thing was done at ] and ]. Without dealing with the creationist issues in another article, it would have been impossible to make progress on the ] article. I will also note that there are many many articles on obscure parts of religion and philosophy on Misplaced Pages. These are just things that people are interested in, so they get articles and develop. Eventually the holes in our coverage get filled in...--] 02:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
	<P>
	:Thanks for the perspective. I would like to see better coverage of real science here. On Ms. Picard's article, I still think 50% is too much of it to be taken up by her signing a petition that has nothing to do with her field of notability. ] 03:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
	<P>
	::I didn't write that and it is now being looked at. Certainly the discussion in her main areas of interest should be expanded considerably. I might also note that people are drawn to controversial subjects; look at how much effort went into the ] article when it was first opened. I also might note that just a couple of months ago, before I and a few other editors busted our butts, the assorted petition articles dealing with the controversy were in disgusting shape. Look at the histories. They were all expanded drastically in the last couple of months. And they could stand a little more fleshing our and opposing views and citations in some cases. This is hard work, but I think it will pay off to have a suite of articles documenting this controversy, which in itself is an interesting sociological phenomenon. Could I edit in my areas of expertise like mathematical physics and physics and applied mathematics and statistics? Yes I could, but I wouldn't be learning so much, and then I would be butting heads with assorted morons who didn't know what they were talking about and who were over-ruling me. So I mostly avoid areas that I know something about. A friend who is an editor here and a surgeon has ended up being completely frustrated trying to edit medical articles; it is too awful to fight the people who do not know anything but revert everything you put in the article and use consensus to put in nonsense in an article. So I edit these things that I don't know much about, and I can learn and still contribute a little.--] 03:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
	<P>
	:::Thanks. Keep up the good work. (p.s. I have noticed that most of the people whose articles come up on this page are creationists, scientologists, or republicans. :-) ) (p.p.s. I forgot alleged closeted gays.)(p.p.p.s. I think the critics of creationism would be more effective if they focused more on scientific debate rather than criticism of individuals. There is already beginning to be a backlash against that.) ] 03:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
	<P>
	What the assumption here is, is that being identified as a creationist is a bad thing. Not to most of these people, actually. Look into this a bit before you make that unfounded POV claim.--] 15:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
	<P>
	:Part of the problem is that both sides are giving way too much importance to "]", a 32 word petition with 700 signatures which has its own article and a category for its signers. ] 22:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)}}
	Then a mediator showed up on the Picard bio talk page:
	{{quotation|''']'''
	<P>
	Hi, there. I'm a Misplaced Pages editor with 7000 edits, and strong familiarity with Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, especially ] and ]. There was a request on the ] board for assistance in this matter. I would like to help, if the parties agree to letting me mediate. I work at a right-wing think-tank (in legal studies), and I am also a lifetime member of NCSE, so I am familiar with both the evolution/creation controversy and with the perception that the press sometimes treats religious arguments unfairly. I think this would permit me to have credibility with both sides, but perhaps someone would instead feel that this means I have a conflict of interest because I recognize the theory of evolution or because of my employer. Would mediation help matters? If so, we can set up a ] page. If one person disagrees, I'll walk away without hard feelings. THF 22:12, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
	<P>
	: Greetings. Pending Dave Souza's intervention, the need for mediation may have abated. If other editors can agree with what Dave and I agree on, then I think we are done.
	<P>
	: Separately from this specific issue, I'd still like some help on the general issue, of which this case is an instance. The general issue has to do with distinguishing a ''report'' of a claim with the ''veracity'' of the claim itself. In the specific case at hand, there is some confusion over whether the NY Times ''affirmed'' a claim by the DI, thereby elevating it to a verifiable fact, or whether the NY Times only ''reported'' a claim, together with additional story content that cast ''doubt'' on the claim. The issue is clouded by two confusing elements. The first confusing element is DI's partisan characterization of the 32-word petition as variously "anti-evolution" or a "dissent from Darwin." The second confusing element is that the NY Times headline refers to the content of the 2006 website, which presents something considerably different from the 2001 version. There is no question that the NY Times story reports what DI claims. But there is considerable question how much, if any, of their claim is substantiated or affirmed by the NY Times. What I'd like some help on is how (in general, not just in this case) one can make that distinction, and how Wikipedians can avoid adopting a partisan's unwarranted reframing, spin, or evolving recontextualization when doing so substantially changes the meaning, import, or interpretation of a controversial statement. That is, what I'm seeking here is not so much ''mediation'' as ''education'' from an expert on that general issue.
	<P>
	: I thank you for any assistance you can provide on any or all of the issues on the table.
	<P>
	: Moulton 23:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
	<P>
	:: Setting aside the series of arguments made above on this page for the moment, may I ask: 1) what exactly is being alleged to be misrepresented in the NY Times article, or other published reliable source, as to Picard's being a signatory to the Scientific Dissent from Darwinism petition? and 2) what reliable published sources, if any, support any such allegation of misrepresentation of Picard's relationship to the Scientific Dissent from Darwinism petition? ... Kenosis 01:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
	<P>
	:: 1) The name of the pre-publication petition that circulated in academia in 2001 was ''not'' "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism." That was the name that the DI later adopted to characterize an unnamed 32-word statement that 103 scientists had previously concurred with. Prepending that misleading name to the 32-word statement reframes and recontextualizes the meaning and interpretation from a technical issue among specialists to a substantially different (and considerably more notorious and controversial) advocacy slant. Labeling the 32-word statement as variously "anti-evolution" or a "dissent from Darwin" is the misrepresentation.
	<P>
	:: 2) The earliest known published version of the 32-word statement is found ''within'' a 2001 anti-PBS advertisement published and signed by the DI. In that ad, the DI ''invoked'' the 32-word statement and asserted that it supported their criticism of the PBS series on Evolution. The name "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism" was the ''headline of the ad'' attacking PBS. It was ''not'' part of the cited 32-word statement that the DI invoked as supporting their view.
	<P>
	:: Moulton 05:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
	<P>
	::: Thank you. I think can readily understand how the untitled statement could be misconstrued to refer to the need for more in-depth research into the process of speciation, cladistics, empirically observable precursors to speciation, etc., particularly if, say, a researcher had just been dealing with the issue of the fossil record not being a continuous random spread over time, or was talking about Gould, or any of a number of other possibilities. '''What published sources exist''' that have presented, e.g., a photocopy of the statement as it was originally circulated without title, a statement that it was circulated untitled, testimony as to any assertions of misleading statements made orally by persons circulating the petition, or other indicia that might be relevant? The sources in which such assertions are documented would be very important to the WP discussion. ... Kenosis 10:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)}}
	Shortly after this point, ] filed the ], short-circuiting any further dispute resolution.
	] (]) 00:15, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	Addendum: I neglected to include a in the aftermath of the RfC. —] (]) 12:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	== These are a few of my favorite lines... ==
	One good egg deserves another, I always say.
	===''Un Oeuf'' Is ''Un Oeuf''===
	If I may add my two cents worth to this particular issue. I have been observing this whole situation from a total outsiders point of view. In fact, I didn't even have an account until today. ] has exhausted the patience of the collective editors to the articles in question. The editors who have tried to work with him, most notably ] and ] have tried over and over to stress how wikipedia functions and how one can constructively edit the articles. Instead of working with the other editors on the articles, particularly with the Picard article, a complete unwillingness to bend from his preconceived ideas of how wikipedia should function has been evident with the tone of ]'s edits.
	Throughout this entire RFC, other users have addressed their concerns with his behavior, yet ] has veered far off topic and brings up unrelated comments of 1) mental models, 2) parables, 3) analogies stretched so thin that it boggles the mind to see how they are related. Point being, this RFC was meant to address his behavior yet he refuses to address or acknowledge well reasoned complaints against him. Blaming ] for casting him "as the Christ figure" only furthers the point that this process is getting nowhere and ] will not listen to any advice from the much more experienced editors.
	We can dance around the may pole for as long as we want, but this have become an activity of exhaustion. ] obviously will not change his way, so perhaps a bigger step should be taken to address the issues. While his tenacity for editing can be commended, he is not willing to mend his ways. He has taken the stool and loudly proclaimed that he thinks this particular issue, even in the face of contrary evidence, he still believes in his own superiority over the other editors.
	And, to ], before you accuse the other editors of being bullies or abusive, please read through the entire talk page of the ] article before you pass judgment. The line between bullying and trying to reason with someone who refuses to listen may be fine, but no one has crossed it. Of course, this is just the view from an outside observer. Take with it what you will. ] 20:30, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
	It is always beneficial to hear the comments of external observers, and particularly new Wikipedians. The atmosphere here sadly can be corrosive over time- which is a real shame; we seem to have forgotten that Misplaced Pages is supposed to be ''fun''. As one should, I read the talk page of that article before making any contribution to this RfC. There is no doubt that Moulton is a difficult editor (cf. the view that I endorsed). But I meant exactly what I said above. He posted to my talk page at 18:32. Within five minutes, rather unhelpful response (Moulton's comment was neither addressed to OM nor does it concern him in any way) was posted to my talk page. Three minutes later, OM posted here, and seven minutes afterwards Filll chipped in with a link to another comment that had nothing to do with him, from the talk page of a third party (on an unrelated thread to which, by way of balance, Moulton should probably not have been posting). What exactly was the aim of OM and Filll in posting Moulton's comments here? It almost seems like this hypothesised "persecution complex" is not far from the truth.
	:I invite everyone involved to review their contributions and editing style, on Picard and elsewhere, in an objective and detached way, and consider how others may view them. If an edit is not making Misplaced Pages a more fun and useful place to be, or if an edit may be perceived as bullying, incivil, hostile, or unnecessarily adversarial- then why make it? ] 21:41, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
	::I frankly don't have a coherent theory of anyone else's (possibly hidden) agendas. All I have to go on is the ] of my adversaries, which is to disempower editors like me, with whom they find themselves in an adversarial relationship. ] 22:02, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
	:::I would respond, however given the record of some who misuse administrative tools to gain the upperhand in disputes here, I will decline. Just let me say I do not like to be lied to and used. Thanks awfully. --] 21:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
	::::Badgerpatrol, I'm not sure what causes you to be upset one way or another, but I'm sure you'll figure it out. I was merely pointing out ] by Moulton. Otherwise, you are not a part of this dispute. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 22:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
	:::::Well, the two edits above are of the type that I'm talking about. Do they escalate the situation, or do they improve it? I am not upset, and I do not claim to be a party to the dispute, except as detailed above with regard to my talk page; all editors are welcome to contribute constructively to RfCs. ] 22:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
	::::::How can thanking someone, ''after the fact'', be considered ]? That would violate ]. ] 22:26, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::Sigh. Clearly ] time has come. Who wants the ]? ] 22:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
	::::::::Let he who is without blemish cast the first stone. ] 22:36, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::::Will this be followed by ''Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani''? We're not talking similia similibus here. If you're going to use biblical metaphors as rhetorical devises at least retain the modus rebus. ] 23:19, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
	::::::::::I prefer a contemporary variation of Matthew 16:23 ... ] 23:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::::::This is exactly the sort of game playing and wasting of the community's time and patience that landed you in this RFC. Now either accept the community's input and stop disrupting the project or I'll take getting you banned up with the community. Either way, continuing as you are is going cease. ] 00:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	::::::::::::I'll take for twenty Quatloos, Alex. ] 00:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	I just choose to ignore his comments. But I'll support getting a community ban on this individual. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 00:14, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	:What's the point of Requesting Comments if you're just planning to ignore them? ] 00:48, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	::Second that wholeheartedly. This is getting waaay to tiresome.--] 00:28, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	:::No one's forcing you to suffer through this. You could be watching ''Law and Order'' reruns on TNT. ] 00:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	::::Only if you're buying me an airfare across the Pacific. I think the latest runs of rhetoric and sarcasm from Moulton shows the lack of community-orientated mindset needed to be a positive contributor to Misplaced Pages. This is pretty clearly, and sadly, a lost cause and we need to get the respective articles back on track, several improvements have been suggested, and consensus is being achieved amongst other contributors.--] 00:51, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	::::::Tell you what... If you ever get to Boston some day, you can be my guest at the Boston Museum of Science. I'll give you the VIP Tour. ] 01:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	:::::The whole point of RfC's isn't on the discussion page. And what's particularly interesting here is that ZZM originally was on your side Moulton. Apparently, he isn't so much any more. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 00:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	::::::Don't be silly. There are no sides. Just a . ] 01:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::I believe that OM's and Filll immediate action with regards to the possibility of canvassing (whether true or not) were born out of the sheer frustration at the lack of progress from this RFC. Since we are on a bit of a Christian/Bible kick here, their patience (and most everyone's patience here) is positively saint-like. And, since I am a new editor, I guess I am the one without blemish that should cast the first stone. But, I would be troubled if the first major edit I ever did would lead to the ban of an editor when said editor could so easily have taken the advice of his peers and adjusted his editing style and general attitudes.
	:::::::Prior to submitting this, I noticed Moulton's latest post. It really does seem that he does not care to comment on the actual issues brought up and would rather give everyone the ole run around. ] 01:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	::::::::There's a limit to the community's patience, and Moulton appears to have intentionally ignored it, perhaps positioning to portray himself on his blog or Larry's as another righteous martyr fallen victim to Misplaced Pages's admins and their conspiracy to stifle the truth or whatever this week's rant and gripe is there. Nevertheless, the disruption clearly must be addressed, and a community ban of some sort seems warranted and the least disruptive way to respond. ] 15:28, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	:::::::::Patience and perseverance are the hallmarks of a good scientist. ] 15:42, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	::::::::::While that may be true, it does not apply in this case. Try something along the lines of, say, tediousness and disruption are the hallmarks of editors who will not accept that they are incorrect. Or stalling and irrelevance are the foreshadowing in the epilogue of an editors time at WP. ] 19:16, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	===Enough===
	Moulton does not state anywhere in his aims "writing an encyclopedia" "working towards consensus with other editors" "adequately and correctly sourcing content" or anything which indicates he even knows where he is. It appears Moulton has confused Misplaced Pages with some kind of forum where OR and POV reign supreme, and twisting people's tails by playing the "martyr" card is good for something besides contempt or amusement. I've tried to work with him to help him understand how Misplaced Pages works, and he not only hasn't learned a thing he has continued playing games with manipulation and misdirection, albeit so ineptly that he is driving away anyone who has made the attempt to help him. If anyone else thinks there is any hope, feel free to give it a try, but in this puppy's opinion take this straight to WP:CSN and save the time and trouble wasted on this time sink. He's not here to assist in building an encyclopedia, and he's getting very much in the way of that aim with his disruptive tendentious proselytizing for his POV. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:14, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	:Here, here! I tried to help a little on his talk page, but the conversation quickly devolved into the same song and dance as before. ] 19:16, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	::Actually, on second thought why waste yet more time on WP:CSN? I'm just going to indef and post on ANI. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:21, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	:::Excellent call. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 19:28, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	::::Done. If you have comments please add them at ]. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:29, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
	Update: ANI thread now at ]. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:01, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
	== Fact finding mission ==
	Moulton, you indicate at WR that you are misunderstood by some at WP. In an attempt to increase understanding I will ask some questions, whose answers might provide information relevant to your relationship with the WP community, so we know better what to do. Please respond to the following:
	#Are you aware of the mission statement of the WikiMedia Foundation and do you accept it?
	#Are you willing to interact with the Misplaced Pages Community and its leadership ''as if'' (]) we are honestly trying to make the world better by providing free-of-cost and copy-left information to as many people as we can within the limits of our abilities, resources and our other priorities in life (helping here does not mean I am going to neglect my other aims in life)?
	#Are you willing to try to learn how we do things here and "go with the flow" (i.e. not knowing breaking the rules even if you are trying to change the rules)?
	#Do you accept that Misplaced Pages "as is" is found useful by millions of people around the world?
	#Do you understand that we the Misplaced Pages community think Misplaced Pages as is is a success and, even though it needs to be better, because it is already a success we are not going to radically change its process due to theoretical observations or even examples of other internet communities?
	#Do you understand that the encyclopedia, its community, its software, and its rules are in constant flux; ever evolving; that ] is recent; that "stable versions" is coming on line soon; that we are encouraging acedemics to get involved; that we are an encyclopedia ''in the making'' and the processes that have so far created a useable source of sourced claims in an encyclopedia format are not those we have used and will use in creating finished vetted versions?
	#In particular, with regard to that last item: Do you know anything about our distribution of vetted articles in DVD format to children in third world countries? (see http://meta.wikimedia.org/Wikipedia_on_CD/DVD)
	#Do you know anything about the non-English language wikipedias?
	#Do you know anything about the non-Misplaced Pages WikiMedia projects? (Might you be happier at WikiVersity)?
	#Do you think you should learn more about us before you try to tell us how to better govern ourselves?
	] (]) 21:52, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
	::With respect, question 10 is a bit leading. Most of them are, come to that. <small>'''] - ]'''</small> 22:09, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
	::And BLP isn't recent, it's been around since 2005. Really, WAS. <small>'''] - ]'''</small> 22:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::2005 ''is'' recent. And "been around" does not capture its even more recent influence and strengthening. But your other comment is dead-on. The questions ''are'' leading - designed to inform as well as question. ] (]) 22:16, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::3 years ago isn't recent. And I mean 'leading' in the sense that there's only really one right answer, isn't there? <small>'''] - ]'''</small> 22:18, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::The word "recent" means something different to you and me, I guess (I'm an old man, and also I was here before I created the BLP proposal; so I think of it as recent).
	:::::No, there can be more than one answer to the questions. The answer to the last question might be that he has very limited suggestions such that what he now knows is sufficient for the limited suggestions he has in mind (example: better enforce "Don't bite the new guys"). ] (]) 22:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
	On April 22, I the WMF Mission Statement in a discussion thread at Misplaced Pages Review. Three days later (and unbeknownst to me until just now) to replace the phrase 'knowledge' with 'neutral educational content'. Prior to that edit, the Mission Statement read:
	<Blockquote>The mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop knowledge under a free license, and to disseminate it effectively and globally.</Blockquote>
	As of the above-cited revision, it now reads:
	<Blockquote>The mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop neutral educational content under a free content license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally.</Blockquote>
	I understood and accepted without reservation the Mission Statement as it stood when I first looked at it on April 22nd.
	While I have no problem with substituting 'educational content' for 'knowledge', the modifier 'neutral' which Eloquence inserted is somewhat vague and ill-defined. Or to put it another way, I am unclear on what Wikipedians mean by 'neutral' in policies like ]. Modulo that confusion, the rest of the Mission Statement is fine by me either way.
	:WAS, I just discovered that there are ''two versions'' of the WMF Mission Statement. The version on ''omits'' the word 'neutral' while the version on ''includes'' the word 'neutral'. Could you contact Anthere (who is the last editor on both versions) and find out which one is the operative version? I would find it more sensible to omit the word 'neutral' as that seems to be a volatile construct. As the relative strength of the voices of competing POVs wax and wane, the 'neutral' view would require the educational content to wax and wane in synchrony to the public clamor. I frankly don't think that makes very much sense. It would generate a rivalry among competing POVs to gain ground in terms of their prominence in the public clamor. We saw something very much like that, when the ] sought to claim that hundreds of prominent scientists and academics endorsed their non-mainstream POV. And even then, the WikiClique on ID ''amplified'' their prominence here, by ] the ID controversy everywhere they could find a hook. Is that a healthy dynamic?
	:] (]) 11:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
	It is my policy and practice not only to assume good faith, but to extend good faith even when there is substantial evidence that another party is ''not'' acting in good faith. I can provide representative examples, if you like.
	As a Systems Scientist, I have been struggling for the past ten months to construct a system model of Misplaced Pages's Socio-Political Dynamics, so as to be able to understand how Wikipedians conduct business amongst themselves. In that regard, I have , but I have relatively little feedback on whether it's an accurate or insightful model.
	With respect to editing without violating any of the various rules and guidelines that Wikipedians are wont to cite (e.g. ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ]), I find that they frequently tend to be mutually inconsistent and mutually contradictory. Last August, I discovered that virtually every edit I deigned to make in a mainspace article, or every edit I merely ''proposed'' in an article's talk page was quickly reverted or summarily rejected on account of being in violation of some obscure rule. I concluded that the only edit that one could safely make without being in violation of some rule was the Null Edit.
	Misplaced Pages serves many useful and valuable purposes. I routinely rely on it to look up details on items of popular culture. Misplaced Pages is probably the best compendium of popular culture on the Internet.
	I have no delusions or fantasies that Misplaced Pages will undertake to revise its policies or practices on account of any analysis, criticism, or suggestions coming from my quarters. At best, I have the audacity to merely ''hope'' for some improvements, enroute to ].
	I understand, through the recent efforts of Doc Glasgow and others, that WP:BLP is a candidate for policy revisions. I understand, through the recent essay from Raymond Arritt, that the problem of ''expert withdrawal'' is also a concern that has attracted some attention.
	I am also aware, in the wake of recent events related to issues raised in my own case, that the interpretation and application of existing policies is also in flux.
	I have seen some references to proposals and commercial enterprises to distribute selected content of Misplaced Pages on DVDs.
	I know that at least one bibliographic reference I inserted into the English Misplaced Pages was copied to the Hebrew Misplaced Pages, even as someone deleted it from the English Misplaced Pages. I have not been able to divine the criteria for such editorial decisions.
	I know a little about WikiNews, mainly because of some recent unfavorable publicity concerning it.
	Do you think you should learn a little more about me (and other academics like me), before deciding how best to govern me? Do you think a more collegial and congenial governance model would be more appropriate, if you wish to attract and retain more scholars from the academic community?
	] (]) 00:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
	:"Neutral" is generally understood here at the English language Misplaced Pages as referring to presenting reliable published mainstream opinion and reliable published expert opinion and alternative points of view identified and discussed in mainstream reliable published sources - each in appropriate contexts (articles) and in fair proportion (due weight).
	:Before you construct a model, you should gather evidence. Wikiversity has several projects doing that. So far there is a lack of adequate data to formulate or evaluate any detailed scientific model of the Misplaced Pages community.
	:"''I find that they frequently tend to be mutually inconsistent and mutually contradictory.''" Yes, we know. Especially IAR. And they are constantly changing. Trying to edit or to counter established cabals with literal rules following does not work as you found out. Try editing some obscure articles as an IP and learn from actual experience. Rule following without enough experience to provide common sense does not work. Expecting admins to always follow the rules is like expecting police to never break the law. People will be people, not machines. Act like it.
	:At WR, you seem to confuse "what are best practices for creating a useful encyclopedia starting with no money but lots of volunteers?" with "what are the best practises for creating the best encyclopedia?" Misplaced Pages is breaking up the creating of a great encyclopedia into two pieces: first create this useful encyclopedia with "anyone can edit"; then take that and have experts check/edit it into a great end product. We have ''already'' done this for parts of Misplaced Pages. We will continue to do this and other things to take what "anyone can edit" and create finished vetted products that can not be edited.
	:"''I have not been able to divine the criteria for such editorial decisions.''" Individual idiosyncratic choices that the individuals believe will make the encyclopedia better. Some add a claim they feel helps. Others delete it thinking ''that'' helps. Anyone can add. Anyone can delete. If there is a difference of opinion, ask other people to join the conversation. Fighting about it only gets you banned.
	:"''Do you think you should learn a little more about me (and other academics like me), before deciding how best to govern me?''" I have no wish to govern anyone. (I'm not an admin.) "''Do you think a more collegial and congenial governance model would be more appropriate, if you wish to attract and retain more scholars from the academic community?''" Yes. Absolutely. Lots of people are trying to help wikipedia be more expert friendly, newbie friendly, and less of a "paint ball game". We know this is a problem. Your help in fixing this would be appreciated. But, we can't fix the problem by methods that destroy the very point of the community's existence (qua community) - to create free-of-cost copy-left useful educational resources.
	:At WR you express confusion over ]. It is really very simple. We wish to be credible in spite of being an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. The best way we have found to do that is to support claims with references to published reliable sources, so that anyone can verify that claim. It does ''not'' mean one should not do research. It only means that all claims actually appearing in the article should in principle be ''able'' to be sourced to a reliable published source. They don't have to ''actually'' be sourced. If editors look at a claim and think, "I'm sure if I looked I could find a source" then it is ok to stay. Also, research sometimes shows a published claim to be wrong, so you can remove a claim you believe to be false based on private research. But if someone else challenges you, you need to convince them you are right. Part of your confusion is from running into people who will twist any rule to win an argument. ] (]) 20:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
	::So, if I understand your explanation of ''neutral'' as applied, for example, to an article on the ], it might have a section on theories of terrestrial ], a section on theories of ], and a section on ] explanations for the origin of life in the cosmos. The discussion might point out the difficulty of coming up with a good scientific model or explanation for the appearance of DNA-based self-reproducing systems out of nonliving organic structures — a puzzle that is complicated by the astonishing complexity of the DNA-based replication process. Is that about right?
	::With regard to building a system model of Misplaced Pages's socio-cultural dynamics, I had not intended to undertake anything quite so daunting, except that I was unexpectedly handed an anecdotal experience last August. I wondered if my experience was a one-off fluke — a happenstantial misadventure — or whether anything comparable had happened to others. Now the plural of ''anecdote'' is ''data'', so after I wrote up my own , I went looking for others. I first found , which led me to , where I discovered a sizable community of outcasts of varying stripes, together with a fairly efficient information gathering system to build a record of known cases, some more notorious than others. It's not exactly a scientific sample, but when one is doing system modeling, one begins where the data (and the data analysis) can be found. It's too soon to say whether a viable and reliable system model will emerge, but I can at least test to see if Misplaced Pages's dysfunctional regulatory structure correponds to .
	::I was unaware that Wikiversity was engaged in anything similar. I'll have to take a closer look.
	::Since I am auto-blocked, I can't edit without logging in, as the system has captured my Verizon DSL IP. Doubleplus, there are those who would seize on that to cause me grief. However, I had made a few minor edits in the years prior to my big kerfuffle last August. The amusing thing is that afterwards, someone seems to have gone back and expunged a fair number of those previously obscure edits (at least in the English Misplaced Pages).
	::It seems to me that a project with lots of young volunteers is well-suited to create a compendium of popular culture, and articles of that nature are generally quite comprehensive. Articles on scholarly subjects appear to be a bit more problematic. It occurred to me that it would make sense to separate these two classes of articles. And as for BLPs, I think that one needs to be taken entirely out the hands of anonymous/pseudonymous volunteers and amateurs.
	::With respect to those minor improvements, like adding a useful bibliographic reference or a ''see also'' link, it seems rather pointless to try to spend too much time doing that, as there is no stability over time for such edits.
	::Figuring out how to help Misplaced Pages fix its animosity and antipathy toward newbies and academics has frankly taxed my creative problem-solving skills to their limit. I've watched any number of alienated editors become angry, frustrated, disgusted, cynical, and even bitter. What's worse, that progression appears to be all but irreversible for most of the disaffected editors who became alienated from the community they sought to serve in good faith.
	::With respect to your final paragraph, I've had to wrestle with allegations of ] in those subject matter areas where I am most competent because they are the areas where I have the most depth and familiarity. I have also run into a ] that can trivially be shown to be unsourced if one bothers to actually examine the cited source upon which the article relies.
	::] (]) 23:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::Misplaced Pages articles are written by their editors and contain what their consensus is concerning content. If there was a consensus among the editors of an article to have that article contain broad philosophical discussions of an issue then that is what it should contain. If there is a consensus to restrict the article to specific science based claims, then that is what the article should contain. There is certainly room at wikipedia for claims about "teleological explanations for the origin of life in the cosmos" but I would not mix such evidence-less speculations with science based evidence describing what science has and has not uncovered about the origins of life on Earth. If is the sheerest nonsense to argue that a lack of evidence is evidence for the supernatural. If I don't know what you ate for breakfast, that is no reason for me to assert that is evidence you ate eggs much less to assert that since I don't know it increases the chance that Zeus fed you.
	:::About "the astonishing complexity of the DNA-based replication process". The complexity is partly due to a ''lack of design''. The DNA/RNA code is the most spaghetti-code like software code I have ever seen. It is exactly what you would expect from an evolution driven system. I think you greatly under-estimate the power of ] and the ability of poorly replicating objects to multiply and evolve when there is a lack of superior lifeforms competing with them. Circumstantial evidence is very strong for early non-species (did ''not'' breed true) RNA self-catalytic molecules.
	:::About "Misplaced Pages's dysfunctional regulatory structure" - when you have a talking dog, you miss the point when you argue over its use of the word "ain't".
	:::"Since I am auto-blocked, I can't edit without logging in, as the system has captured my Verizon DSL IP." Nonsense. Your local libraies have internet connections. You are smart enough to be able to edit articles not known to be associated with you in ways that do not promote POVs associated with you. You ''can'' edit, if you choose. Just not in a way that is obviously ''you''. Lots of banned/blockd people figure that if they can't POV push, then why bother editing at all. Surely you don't feel that way.
	:::''there is no stability over time for such edits'' I disagree.
	:::See ] for what was, can be, and should be done by experts. This article was a collaborative venture by several IMTA researchers around the world. Contributors included: Reid GK, Chopin T, Robinson S, Neori A, Buschmann AH, Shpigel M, Rodger A, and Bolton J. These experts also wrote some of the sources referenced in the article. I wikified it for them.
	::: Would you like to edit ]? You can be unblocked and/or given permission to sockpuppet if you wish to constructively contribute to that article. Or pick another article that you haven't been in a fight over. ] (]) 12:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::To the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence yet for panspermia, and (as far as I know) there aren't any satisfactory theories yet for terrestrial abiogenesis, either. So if I am reading you accurately, an article on the ] would say that while there is research underway, and perhaps some speculative theories being bandied about, science does not yet have a settled theory for the origin of life in the cosmos. End of article.
	::::Then again, I might talk about the NASA missions (including the upcoming Mission to Mars) which will look for evidence of panspermia. And I might like to see someone familiar with work on terrestrial abiogenesis review the state of that research.
	::::If there is a good theory for how nucleic acid structures got their start, it has not yet come to my attention (not that I've been keeping up with the literature).
	::::I ain't got no talking dog. All I got is this ''ferchachta'' experience of the last ten months to come to grips with.
	::::I am not about to go schlepping down to the library to evade the friggin' autoblock. And I have found that others can invariably recognize me after about 3 sentences, no matter what the subject matter is. I never did figure out what is so idiosyncratic about my writing style that gives it away so easily.
	::::It's too bad the articles about Rosalind Picard and Affective Computing couldn't have been written by editors familiar with the subject. That would have been refreshing.
	::::Objections to evolution? I am not familiar with any. Are there really people left on the planet who object to evolution? When I worked at Bell Labs in the Network Planning Division, and I had a chance to come up with a new name for our group, I selected the name Network Evolution Planning. That was ''my'' concept of intelligent system design, a quarter century ago. And I'd like to see some accelerated evolution in ''this'' project, too. The regulatory process I encountered here reminds me of the regime of King John, before the Magna Carta.
	::::] (]) 04:02, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::If I may, I'd like to say a quick word about the offer for Moulton to edit ]. If he does return and edits that article, I would advise him to tread very lightly because that page is often visited by people who do not wish to make contributions and would rather argue and use it as a forum. I would suggest a less contentious topic for him to edit; something along the computer science lines. If he wants to avoid stirring up the pot and get back into the community's good graces, editing that particular article would not be a wise choice. ] (]) 14:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::And I might offer that Moulton review (again, so far as I know) ]. His clever arguments above all fail to take this portion of policy into account. Shame, really, because without comprehending and ''embracing'' the undue weight provisions, one cannot really edit WP (or really any other "neutral" academic forum) in a truly neutral fashion You can argue for the theories of gravity or you can argue that some god makes it all work, but if you present the arguments as being equaly valid, you sure as hell are not being academically neutral. ]<sup>]</sup> 20:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	== The Similarities and Differences Between Filll and Moulton ==
	Over at the ] that Dihydrogen Monoxide started some days ago, Filll has published a ] in which he compares his history and adaptation to the Misplaced Pages culture to my history and maladaptive reaction to the Misplaced Pages culture.
	Filll's analysis and synthesis of a ''theory of mind'' is remarkable.
	My problem with Filll's analysis and his theory of mind is that ''it's not even wrong''.
	But I wonder if someone would be kind enough explain to me "the principles that Misplaced Pages operates under" and reveal to me how those "principles" (assuming I can ever apprehend them) make the treatment I was afforded by Filll and his colleagues both ''expected and inevitable''.
	Finally, since I believe in complementary relationships, permit me to present my reciprocal views regarding Filll...
	<Blockquote>
	====Moulton's understanding of Filll====
	Although I have engaged with Filll many times over the past ten months, I confess that I have not yet succeeded in constructing an adequate understanding or appreciation of his mindset or character. I don't understand what he dreads or how he feels about various and sundry issues that recur in his life and his work. I know next to nothing about his personal backstory, including his educational background and experience. I am uninformed about his core beliefs, and baffled by his normative practices. I doubt I could accurately articulate his heartfelt desires or his avowed intentions.
	And I am unable to make sense of his observable actions or the ensuing ''Shreklisch drama'' that has unfolded between us.
	I regret to say, I simply don't understand Filll. I don't understand where he is coming from; I don't understand how he forms his beliefs; nor do I understand why he behaves the way he does.
	In terms of my concept of ''best practices'', the best I can honestly and ethically put forward at this time regarding my antagonist in this unusual relationship is the Null Model.</Blockquote>
	And that's the Yin and Yang of our complementary relationship, thus far.
	] (]) 00:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
	Another fascinating example turns up as the AN conversation burbles along. Whereas Filll presciently ''invokes'' the ], I take it to the next level and .
	] (]) 06:08, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Amazing that it seems many of the posters on that forum find problems with your behavior. Strange. I thought it was just the "ID clique" picking on you. ] (]) 06:40, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
	Moulton asks "''But I wonder if someone would be kind enough explain to me "the principles that Misplaced Pages operates under" and reveal to me how those "principles" (assuming I can ever apprehend them) make the treatment I was afforded by Filll and his colleagues both expected and inevitable.''" Moulton, you are dealing with human beings, who are going to act like human beings - some honest and giving, others less so. We even have a few bullies. I once played poker for no money with a few drinking buddies and accused a friend much larger than myself of cheating, not once but three times. What do you imagine was the "expected and inevitable" result? He threw a punch. I deserved it. What else should I expect from such behavior at a drunken card game? Well, Misplaced Pages has a ton of vandals and POV pushers and our defense is unpaid volunteers who make mistakes, who POV push themselves at times, who get feed up and overreact some times. It is part of the process. If you will not or can not work in such an environment, then Misplaced Pages is not for you.] (]) 19:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
	:WAS, I am all in favor of giving people generous slack in a spirit collegiality and congeniality. But that door swings both ways, does it not? I had been editing in earnest on Misplaced Pages for barely a week, on a mere handful of BLPs and related articles that many observers now frankly concede were in atrocious condition, when Filll and his cronies in the WikiProject on Intelligent Design unceremoniously hauled me into a bewildering and Kafkaesque procedural nightmare, presumably in accordance with a sober application of those vaunted "principles" that he sanctimoniously refers to. —] (]) 19:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
	::"''presumably in accordance with a sober application of those vaunted "principles" that he sanctimoniously refers to.''" Oh, please. How many times do you have to be told that you ran into bullies that did not follow the rules; but instead gamed them to win an argument? The sad thing is I'm not even sure how many of that group even know they are twisting the rules. We are all delusional in our own way, as I'm sure you know. So why do we put up with them? Most of what they do benefits Misplaced Pages by keeping popular misconceptions out of science articles. And who is gonna fight off the very persistent and nasty POV pushers for no money other than people that enjoy pushing others around? You don't hire peace-niks as snipers. Catch-22 from the unexpected unplanned success at letting anyone edit. ] (]) 20:37, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::That's quite helpful, WAS, and I appreciate your candor. With respect to the more difficult problem of presenting science in a way that honors both the educational outreach mission of Misplaced Pages and the rigors of science itself, I am more than willing to offer my experience as a science educator, with twenty years with the Boston Museum of Science. I believe it is possible not only to ''present'' science in a readable manner to children and adults, but also to ''adhere to the principles of the scientific method'' whilst crafting articles on subjects of scientific interest. The late Carl Sagan did not shy away from answering pseudo-science with authentic science. And while I am hardly in his league as a popularizer of science, I do appreciate his inspiring example. —] (]) 21:26, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::Did you see my edit in the above section "Fact finding mission" ? ] (]) 21:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::Oh! Sorry. I missed that. I'll go back and read it and respond. —] (]) 21:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
	== Reconnaissance ==
	At WR you said :"''What I need help on — and I'm quite sincere and serious about this — is understanding what I might have done differently here, when I first raised the same objections to Hrafn, Filll, and ConfuciousOrnis.''"
	Less arrogance when dealing with people you don't know in environments you lack experience in. ] (]) 23:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Doesn't that door swing both ways? —] (]) 00:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	::No. You failed at your objectives. They succeeded at theirs. I would conclude they understood the environment and you did not; having failed to do appropriate reconnaissance. ] (]) 01:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::My ] was to achieve a respectable level of accuracy, excellence, and ] in online media, especially when the subject at hand is an identifiable living person. Can you suggest to me what ''their'' objective was? Did I fail because I went about it incorrectly, or did I fail because my objective is inherently infeasible within the operant environment in which I was obliged to function? —] (]) 08:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::They wanted to get rid of a bothersome person. You continue to be bothersome. Your claim that "My ] was to achieve a respectable level of accuracy, excellence, and ] in online media, especially when the subject at hand is an identifiable living person." is not backed by evidence, but instead seems to be simply a most generous self promotion and self congratulations. More likely, you are like the rest of us and have a mix of motivations; some similar to what you describe and others closer to the desire to win, get revenge, help a friend, etc. Why do you find it so impossible to learn? I already answered your question: '''you failed to do appropriate reconnaissance.''' Learn the game before you place your bets. Are you going to continue asking the same question using different words, or are you capable of being less bothersome and actually make some progress? (Sorry, I'm tired and testy.) ] (]) 09:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::Learn the ''game''??? Do you mean The Encyclopedia Game, as notably ], former editor of the Encyclopedia Britannica?
	:::::{{quotation|"It was always a doomed idea. It was bad from the start. But it's got the public playing the encyclopedia game. To extend the analogy, it's also like playing a game in the sense that playing it has no consequences. If something goes wrong, you just restart. No problem!" (Robert McHenry, Britannica editor)}}
	:::::He said it more succinctly .
	:::::—] (]) 11:34, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	An amazing question, all things considered. I had a long response, but I decided not to give it. I think the answer is obvious.--] (]) 00:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	:What do you make of dogbiscuit's response ? —] (]) 00:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	::Nice guy I am sure, but it is completely wrong. Wow. Amazing how much he misunderstands.--] (]) 02:15, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::Filll, you can find dogbiscuit's reply to you . —] (]) 11:05, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::I looked. He sees the world in black and white, not even shades of grey, and certainly not in color I guess. And he just goes with what he thinks is some obvious reason, assuming things about my personal beliefs and those of others to force some interpretation of his own creation on the situation. What some people do not seem to get is, '''my personal beliefs in the matter are irrelevant here - everyone's are'''. We have a set of rules for WP. And we follow the rules, as best as we can.
	::::Would you want to play basketball with someone who demonstrated by their deeds and actions they did not want to play by the rules? Suppose one of the opposing teams stated that they intended to allow 20 players on the floor at once, and to introduce 3 basetballs into play instead of just one? Suppose that one of the opposing teams demanded that they be allowed to pass the ball to the crowd and have the crowd pass it back to one of their players, without stopping the play? Suppose that one of the opposing teams demanded that they receive no penalty for intentionally tripping members of the other team? And so on? Do you think that the league would let them continue to play with their own made up rules? Do you think that everyone would give in to their demands? What if they were asked to read the rule book and follow the rules and they refused repeatedly? What do you think would happen?
	::::I believe that it is quite likely that you will dismiss this as inaccurate, or an inapplicable analogy, or try to ignore it, or to find some loophole, or claim I am being unfair. Do you think that might be part of the reason you are in the situation you find yourself in? Interesting question, don't you think?--] (]) 12:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::Do you play chess, Filll? —] (]) 13:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::Thanks for demonstrating my point. You have not changed your attitude one whit, nor do you intend to. Not that I expected any different, frankly.--] (]) 13:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::Let me rephrase the question, Filll. Have you ever played chess? —] (]) 16:54, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::In the meantime, Filll, you may find more commentary on your last set of remarks . —] (]) 18:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::::It is about what I expected. Confusion and misrepresentation. And very selective reading of the policy pages, etc. --] (]) 21:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	== Neutrality ==
	WAS, did you pick up on ? ] (]) 00:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	:"Neutral" is a key value of the WikiMedia Foundation whether it is or is not specifically stated as so in any specific statement. We are not a propaganda organ. "''As the relative strength of the voices of competing POVs wax and wane, the 'neutral' view would require the educational content to wax and wane in synchrony to the public clamor.''" is simply not true and reflects a complete misunderstanding of "neutral". I think you have been listening too much to people who condemn wikipedia for things it is not. "Neutrality" is not defined by popular opinion and Misplaced Pages does not aim to replace expert opinion with whatever the unwashed masses vote is true. That is ''not'' what we do. ] (]) 01:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	::{{quotation|"Neutral" is generally understood here at the English language Misplaced Pages as referring to presenting reliable published mainstream opinion and reliable published expert opinion and alternative points of view identified and discussed in mainstream reliable published sources - each in appropriate contexts (articles) and in fair proportion (due weight).}}
	::Am I misinterpreting ''fair proportion''? How is that measured? The Discovery Institute raised quite a ruckus, got a lot of press, a couple of high-profile trials, a PBS Nova episode, a new movie, a big splash in WP, etc. Didn't they pump up their juice bigtime?
	::—] (]) 01:55, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	I told you this over and over and over. And it is in the policies. And others quoted it to you as well. But somehow, you chose to ignore that or misunderstand it or misread it. And I am sure if you are told this again, you will again try to argue about it or wikilawyer for some other misinterpretation. Sorry.--] (]) 02:15, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Let me rephrase the question. ''Fair proportion?'' Proportion to ''what''? How do you define and measure the baseline quantities of each alternative POV? Column inches? What? —] (]) 02:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	::It is a matter of editorial judgement based on the best available sources and the consensus of the editors of the article. There is no mindless formula to follow. The editors are expected to read the available sources and use their best judgement to carefully, thoughtfully, caringly come to the best conclusions they can to create the best article they can; faithfully representing what is believed by the most knowledgeable people on the subject of the article. Do you really think good article writing can be reduced to a formula? ] (]) 09:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::I agree 100%, modulo the difficulty of arriving at consensus. I heartily endorse the ] when crafting BLPs. I most assuredly do ''not'' believe that it is feasible to craft high quality articles that are both accurate and ethical by roboticly accessing a bewildering laundry list of self-contradictory rules. —] (]) 10:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::One of the uses of "Ignore all rules" is for people like yourself who are more confused than helped by reading the rules. When the rules seem to get in the way of making the encyclopedia better, then the ] rule says to make the encyclopedia better and ignore the rules. But you do need to get along with others and form a consensus rather than get into revert wars. And you do need to realize that personal knowledge can not be used to add data; we need to be able to verify claims from published reliable sources. ] (]) 11:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::I rather like ], because it allows me to ignore the WP:Hodgepodge of WP:Rules and just focus on making a better encyclopedia with more accurate articles. I do realize that personal knowledge cannot be used to ''add'' data, but it occurred to me that personal knowledge can legitimately be used to recognize bits and pieces of unsourced content that found its way into articles through inadvertent inference or assumption that is not supported by evidence or careful examination of reliable sources. My understanding of ] is that it means there is ''no strong objection''. When I strongly objected to the retention of previously inserted material that I personally knew to be both false and defamatory, I objected on the grounds that the contested information could not legitimately be found in, extracted from, or inferred from the reliable public sources upon which the article in question was based. I would have expected that in the absence of a clear consensus, such contested material would simply be removed until such time as it could be properly sourced. I personally expected that time would never come, since I had personally known the subject of the article for 24 years, and was quite confident that no such source ever existed or ever would exist. But rather than admit that there was no consensus for retaining the contested material, the other competing editors sought to remove me from the game, through what now you and others have recognized to be a sham RfC. ] (]) 11:29, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	::(Afterthought) Why in the world would any encyclopedia article writer make the article reflect what is shouted the loudest or has the most column inches? How does that make any sense at all? That would be an abandonment of thoughtfulness and discrimination. If that's what you want, just use google. '''faithfully represent what is believed by the most knowledgeable people on the subject of the article.''' Doesn't that make more sense than mindlessly repeating popular misconceptions widely repeated? A source that reflects lack of knowledge is unreliable. Knowledgeable sources are more reliable than non-knowledgeable sources. Our standard is reliable published sources. ] (]) 09:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::I have no idea why any responsible writer would proportion the contents of an article that way. It makes very little sense to me. That's why I kept stumbling over that "neutrality" definition, because that's what it seemed to say. I would much rather write an ''objective'' account that sought to minimize contentious reification of any burbling conflict amongst competing subjective points of view. So when it comes to "faithfully representing what is believed by the most knowledgeable people on the subject of the article," I found myself at a loss when the subject of the article is a professional colleague whom I have known, respected, and worked with for 24 years, whilst the other would-be editors don't have a clue about the subject of the article, having never met her, never read her book or technical publications, never attended one of her talks, never discussed philosophy and beliefs with her, and never romped with her remarkable and energetic children.
	:::—] (]) 10:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::When people can't agree, sometimes someone is pushing a POV or is predjudiced or refusing to listen. Then you bring in ''other'' people to get involved, say their opinion, edit, mediate, whatever. Sometimes the other guy will turn out to be in the wrong. Sometimes everyone will agree you are wrong (then you just accept that somehow you are wrong even if you don't see how). Consensus works if you work it; usually. But that depends on being able to find people who care about the subject, or care enough about ''you'' to help you out. Hence the politics and usefulness of making friends at wikipedia. ] (]) 11:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::One small nit. To my way of thinking it's not "making friends" that is important. (although I think I have a fair few friends I've made by working on this project, that is a bonus, a side effect) Rather, it's "gaining respect" (for your reasoned discourse, for your ability to work to reach and then respect consensus, for your civility, for your insight, for your good articles, for your hard work in doing tasks that need doing, even if they are unfun, and so forth) that is needed. When and where WP works well, it's a meritocracy, not a clique. Are there cliques? Places where friends stick up for each other regardless of the merits of the arguments, by reflex as it were? Places where WP does not work well? Yes. But that is true in any system formed by humans, we are all of us imperfect, after all.
	:::::Moulton, where I think you're off the rails is that you haven't "paid your dues" enough. I'm not telling you anything new, I've said it before, and I think you don't see why you should have to, you think that you should be afforded respect merely by what you are and what you've done elsewhere, but rightly or wrongly, WP doesn't work that way. Maybe it should, maybe it shouldn't, but to be successful here at effecting change, I feel you have to work within the system. (WAS don't take this as a sweeping criticism of your theme, but merely a refinement, I think you're on the mark in what you're saying here). ++]: ]/] 14:22, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::I agree with your refinement. Thank you for making it. ] (]) 01:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::PrivateMusings came across me on Misplaced Pages Review where, last November, he clicked on a to one of my articles in the Media Ethics blog. There he that (as Filll knows) eventually led to my participation in ] of ]. My subsequent participation in ] with Brian Bergstein of the Associated Press brought me into contact with Kim Bruning, whose curiosity about me might never have been aroused, save for the fact that Filll objected to my participation on account of me not being in "good standing" per the outcome of his RfC against me. Kim befriended me and offered to lend his good offices to help address the problems I faced with Filll and his fellow editors from the ]. The rest of the story is probably quite well known to anyone reading here. So that's my experience with someone extending to me the hand of friendship, after a brief conversation in the aftermath of an NTWW recording session.
	::::::Kim brought in others (notably Ottava Rima) to review and repair the situation, just as WAS describes, above. And in the wake of all that, many more previously uninvolved editors also came forward of their own accord to review the situation and offer their independent comments, analysis, and opinions. Among them, Random832 and Sam Korn were especially instrumental. At some point I hope to be able to write up a comprehensive acknowledgment of everyone who acted in good faith to remediate the lamentable travesty of last August and September. I am frankly less interested in assigning blame and more interested in repairing the damage from that nightmarish misadventure.
	::::::I tried to offer respect even to the most egregious of trolls, including on and Baegis on my ]. It grieved me that I was not offered respect in return. It occurs to me that all that free-floating scorn from total strangers cannot have come out of nowhere. But I still don't have a plausible theory to explain it.
	::::::] (]) 16:54, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::Lots of people have a lot of free floating anger. The issue of explaining it is like the issue of explaining the begining of life on Earth - there are many possibilities, just no real evidence to choose among some of them. ] (]) 01:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::::I didn't say ''anger'', I said ''scorn''. Anger is the emotion that is aroused in the wake of an injustice. Since Fuckin Broc and Baegis were strangers with whom I had had no prior encounter, there couldn't not have been any slight or injustice from my quarters to elicit any anger toward me. No, their attitude was one of scorn, derision, and contempt. How can a total stranger, with whom I have no prior history, start off a relationship with an expression of scorn, derision, or contempt? —] (]) 08:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::::Wow, you are as bad at listening as Filll. Whatever ''you'' said; ''I'' said anger. And meant it. "Free floating'' means that the anger expressed at you may have had nothing to do with you. Could the Jews killed in WWII say "there couldn't have been any slight or injustice from my quarters to elicit any anger toward me"? Grow up already. Heard about the guy who comes home from a bad day's work, yells at the wife, who yells at the kid, who kicks the cat? "''How can a total stranger, with whom I have no prior history, start off a relationship with an expression of scorn, derision, or contempt?''" What world are you living in? People take stuff out on person B because they are angry at person A ''all the time''. ] (]) 09:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::::And if I may defend myself, I approached you on your talk page to try to understand why you were having difficulties understanding how the RFC worked process and why it appeared you could not play well with others. And I lost patience at record speed because I quickly saw the behavior and general contempt for others that you had expressed so well in the period up to and including the RFC. I was trying to be a bit of a middleman but that didn't work out so well. ] (]) 13:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	(outdent) Everyone, newbie or grizzled veteran, is entitled to the respect of civility, and unless already demonstrated otherwise, the respect of assuming good faith about their actions. (see ]) You're supposed to get that for free. But people turn up on my page and ask my advice about things, ask me to fix things, ask me to get involved in things because they respect me in a way that a newbie isn't yet respected. That's a distinction that I didn't make clearly enough. I was referring more to the latter kind of respect above. You have to earn your stripes here. Rightly or wrongly, external credentials entitle you only to a polite hearing, just like any random that turns up and speaks politely, not an entitlement that your words carry any extra weight than anyone else's about anything. If you want your words to carry weight, if you want to have influence in policy and how things are done, you gotta do the time. (conversely, if you want your words to carry weight about article content, you have to provide the cites.) That's my view. I'm not an admin here, a CU, a crat elsewhere, a steward, etc., because I turned up one day and said I could solve everything if only people would listen, and I'm hopefully not a steward merely because I'm popular enough to have gotten 150+ supports from various folk in my election. Rather, I hope I'm a steward because I demonstrated that I was trustworthy, responsible, reliable and active, that I was wise in the ways of the wiki, and I was willing to work within the system. Anyone can edit happily here if they want to. It's up to them, just like taking offense is up to the person. Sometimes they may not want to edit (or not take offense), for good and valid reasons but it's still their choice. What many are saying here is for you to be successful, you have to internalise that and decide you want to go along with it. Rightly or wrongly, it is what it is. I work for change, you know I do... but I do it within the system, it's a choice I made long ago, when I first found my words not carrying the weight *I* thought they should... it seemed no one said "oh!!!! Here's Lar, with 25 years experience in online communities, let's listen closely and do what he says, our problems are over!". I did my time to get my influence. That it happens that I enjoy article writing and some of the rest made it possible and enjoyable to do it. (don't do things here because you see a duty, do them because you enjoy them)... but I did it. I had to. If you can't, I don't think you will succeed in changing anything working internally. This is what I have been telling you all along and why I remain dubious. You need to say you get this and will go along with how things are done here, or you will fail again. ++]: ]/] 17:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	::'''You need to say you get this and will go along with how things are done here, or you will fail again.''' Totally agree. ] (]) 01:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::'''You need to say you get this and will go along with how things are done here, or you will fail again.''' How many times have I said that to you Moulton? 20? 50? 100? More? And not only do you have to ''say it'', but you have to actually mean it and follow it. It is like, let's say a '''SOCIAL CONTRACT'''. Ever hear anyone use that phrase? --] (] | ]) 14:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::It's one thing to make a ] to the effect, "You need to ''appreciate'' this and go along with the way things are done here, or you will ''probably'' fail," and an ] to the effect, "You ''must'' say you understand this and agree to go along with the way ''we'' do things here, or else it's curtains for you." The former intonation is just a scientific prediction, and I am fine with that and will take my chances in the probability space. The latter intonation comes across to me as ] regarding a compelled '']'' with specified planned and predetermined consequences for refusing to utter the required speech act. For reasons that you may now understand better, the latter intonation is abhorrent to me. That is part of the reason I responded, "]," which means "Unask the question." To my mind, answering it, "Yes," would have amounted to participating in an instance of ] which would have potentially endangered your status here. I frankly didn't know about ] at the time, but it ''felt'' improper deep in my ''].'' You see, a ] contains naught but ''mutually agreeable'' terms of engagement, and I don't agree to be coerced. —] (]) 11:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Somey has a term of art for people who are wise in the ways of Wiki and know how to get things done. He calls them "fixers" (although, to be fair, I think he uses that term more in a pejorative sense than a respectful one). I watched with great hope as Doc Glasgow and NYB sought to work from the inside to fix the kind of problems that had most disturbed me. And I watched with great horror as alienated outsiders like Daniel Brandt tried to fix WP through strongarm tactics that I frankly abhor.
	:I am obviously in neither camp. I identify with the moderates who are working at the liminal frontiers of change, and managing not to become discouraged, frustrated, dispirited, or alienated in the process.
	:A month or so ago, I found myself on the sidelines watching three atomic physicists — one a Canadian professor and two researchers from Los Alamos National Lab — flee from Misplaced Pages in the wake of a nightmare encounter with hostile regulars. And before that, there was the case of Carl Hewitt, Professor Emeritus of MIT (whom I have never met nor corresponded with). What I bring to the table, more than suggestions for change, is the kind of horror story that helps explain why WP is struggling with the problem of "expert withdrawal" — a problem that even Filll recognized enough to highlight on his own personal pages here. I recognize that I have no power on Misplaced Pages, other than the power to bear accurate witness to the best of my ability. I know of the story of the Canadian professor, because he copied me on all his messages to WMF. But he is not going public for reasons that become abundantly clear when one examines the horrifying details of the case.
	:Writing memoirs of my misadventures in cyberspace communities is not my favorite activity. I'd rather be doing science education. The WMF says its mission is to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content and effectively disseminate it around the world. I've already been doing that independently of Misplaced Pages for a quarter century, and I expect to continue doing that for the indefinite future. I'm more than willing to lend my good offices and good name to that enterprise within the pages of Misplaced Pages, except for one little problem. I don't have a good office and a good name here. The WikiClique on Intelligent Design took away my good name. And so I have no good offices and no good name to lend to the enterprise. It's up to the community here to decide what, if anything, they want to do about that. It's your choice, not mine. I'll go on about my life's work either way, and write my memoirs either way. The choice is yours. Just let me know, one way or the other.
	:] (]) 18:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	I don't suppose you ever read the pages? I don't suppose you ever noticed that I was the major contributor on them? I have 3-4 times as many edits to those pages as the number 2 contributor. I made plenty of observations and suggestions about how to improve Misplaced Pages there.
	I don't suppose you ever considered that ''your behavior'' is a major contributor to the atmosphere which leads to threats of Expert Withdrawal? Just read the threads. Carefully.
	I looked into the supposed problem with Hewitt. Sorry I don't see it. I do not deny that there are problems here, but I also notice that you and some of your friends have made the problems far far worse, not better.--] (]) 18:51, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Since January, I've posted about a dozen times on WR about the Expert Withdrawal issue, including links to the page and quotes from it. Here is . In other posts, I've mentioned your name as one of those promoting the discussion with a prominent box on your user page. If you search for "Expert Withdrawal" and author "Moulton" you'll find them all in a few seconds.
	:Filll, I was only actively editing in WP for about 2 or 3 weeks back in August/September. My "behavior" on this site has been the Null Behavior for almost the entire lifetime of WP except for those two or three weeks plus a few days in December when I posted the RfAr.
	:Hewitt was scheduled to appear on a panel with Mike Godwin in Santa Cruz a week or two ago, but Godwin pulled out at the last minute, without disclosing a reason.
	:] (]) 20:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	::Null = NVA? ]<sup>]</sup> 20:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	::He means that ''mostly'' he has ''not'' edited. That's all. ] (]) 01:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::mostly not = sometimes &ne& null. WTF? ]<sup>]</sup> 21:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
	*''Hewitt was scheduled to appear on a panel with Mike Godwin in Santa Cruz a week or two ago, but Godwin pulled out at the last minute, without disclosing a reason.'' Ah yes that is probably because of some super sekret ID Wikiproject cabal. Makes a lot of sense...--] (]) 20:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	:{{quotation|<Center></Center> <P> Thursday May 15<BR>6:00 pm to 7:30 pm<BR>Center for Science Technology and Society<BR>Law School of - High Tech Law Institute<BR>Markkula Center for Applied Ethics<P>Reception, 6 p.m.; Panel 6:30 p.m.<P>A panel discussion featuring Carl Hewitt, emeritus,Electrical Engineering and Computer Science, MIT; and Pedro Hernández-Ramos, associate director, Center for Science, Technology, and Society, moderator.<P>Please Note: Mike Godwin, General Counsel of Wikimedia, was originally scheduled to participate in this event. Last week, Mr. Godwin informed us that he would not participate, and subsequent discussions with Wikimedia Foundation indicated that they would not designate a replacement speaker. We are disappointed that Wikimedia chose not to participate in this event.}}
	:{{quotation|<B>Carl Hewitt</B><P>Carl Hewitt is Emeritus in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). He is known for his design of Planner, his work on concurrency (the Actor model), the Scientific Community Metaphor, and, most recently, on strongly paraconsistent logic. <P> Initially, Hewitt was excited about Misplaced Pages, but experience trying to write for the site has led him to believe that it is unsuited for such academic articles because of problems with "censorship by Misplaced Pages Administrators, lack of accountability, dogmatism, intolerance, and disrespect for expertise."}}
	:] (]) 21:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
	== Let's cut to the chase. ==
	Let's cut to the chase. You need to say you will go along with how things are done here and then do so to the best of your ability, or it is pointless to unblock you. It would also be helpful if you were less frustrating to talk to. You have a way of being an exasperating conversation partner. Do you agree to edit wikipedia in a way that you honestly believe will usually be met with acceptance (and to back off in any specific instance when you find your belief was wrong) ? Will you try? If not, then we are just wasting our time. Please answer yes or no and not another one of your exasperating philosophical excursions. Will you try? ] (]) 01:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	:]. —] (]) 02:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	::That behavior is behavior that is not trying, so even though your answer is "That is an invalid question"; it is in fact a "No" answer. ] (]) 09:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::I'm sorry, WAS, but I had already promised Kim Bruning that I was fine with the ], modulo the substitution of ''objective'' (as I understand it) in lieu of ] which I frankly find incomprehensible, disputatious, and argumentative. I generally don't find ''objective'' to be as problematic or argumentative as ]. I asked Kim if my participation here from August 21st through September 11th of last year departed from ] in any substantive or problematic way. His answer was that to the best of his knowledge I did ''not'' depart from ], but he couldn't be absolutely 100% positive. Your question, above, was worded in a way that seemed to be at odds with my understanding of Kim's offer. Hope this helps.
	:::] (]) 14:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::: My offer was inclusive NPOV, but we'd show you how it worked. I think WAS will support you if you state that you will try to follow the five pillars. Worst case you don't quite manage, or don't enjoy working in that manner, in which case you can walk away, but you will still have the benefit of an improved reputation. If you say No, there is absolutely nothing to be gained, and this opportunity will not come again. --] (]) 14:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::As you know, Kim, I have stated that I have always been fine with the five pillars (modulo interpreting NPOV to be essentially synonymous with 'objective'), and (as far as I know) my participation here has never departed in any substantive degree from the five pillars. If there proves to be any substantive distinction between 'objective' and NPOV, I am fine with letting Ottava explain to me the distinction and demonstrate how to correct any resultant discrepancy. I have never stopped endeavoring to do my best, even under difficult circumstances. While I have no reliable way to predict whether my work will be met with acceptance or rejection, I nonetheless confidently believe that my work will ultimately be perceived and recognized as achieving a normative standard of accuracy, excellence, and ethics in online media, appropriate to the enterprise of crafting a respectable encyclopedia that concords with the educational mission of the WMF.
	:::::] (]) 18:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::: I know where you're coming from and how you mean those words, and we've had a cordial discussion, and that's coming almost all the way. But it's too little too late. :-( --] (]) 18:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC) <small>''ironically, if you'd have used less words, it might work out''</small>
	:::::::Anytime one uses "modulo" to defend themselves or advance a position they might as well get out the backhoe and dig two metres. Use it more often -- modulo, modulo, modulo. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:56, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::::How does that comment help move the discussion forward? I don't even understand what point you are trying to make there. ++]: ]/] 20:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::Obviously, you missed the point, but I'm not going to explain (Think: conversatio mors natale). Moulton will get it (as will others). ]<sup>]</sup> 21:15, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	===Your objectives===
	I guarantee if you do not agree to follow the rules and take instruction in how to behave here, you will have the same experience you did the last time. You might even be shown the door quicker.
	I know you want to "improve" the system, according to your own intuition and undestanding. My interpretation is that you want to dictate rules to tens of thousands of other users, based on nothing besides the fact that you are ''Moulton''. That is not how a collaborative, consensus-driven enterprise like Misplaced Pages works. The fact that you even believe it is possible when you do not understand the system is mind-boggling, and shows you are not much of a "scientist" or "researcher" at all.
	If you want to try to improve the system (as I and many others do), you have to understand it first. And you will not understand it by sitting over at WR and throwing stones at Misplaced Pages with other malcontents. And you will not understand the system by demanding that you be allowed to disobey all the policies and practices and conventions, and to insult others at will who are only trying to follow the rules, and do so with impunity and no consequences.
	I would suggest that you do what I did; pick some very bland topics you are interested in, like the theatre, or some playwrite, or chess, or Arabic poetry and build up a few FA and GA articles over a few months. Get at least 20,000 edits under your belt, and write a good 100 articles or more.
	Then try a controversial article in an area in which you are not personally involved, like "race and IQ" or "]" or "]". Get at least 500 edits on the talk page of a controversial article trying to broker a consensus between warring factions and get the article closer to the standards that Misplaced Pages aspires to (not ''your'' standards, but Misplaced Pages's).
	Put some time in closing threads at the COI noticeboard or a few other noticeboards.
	''Then'' and only then will you have enough background to begin suggesting changes to Misplaced Pages's culture. Then and only then will you understand enough for your statements on improving Misplaced Pages to make any sense. Then and only then will anyone pay attention to you at all, and even then you will mostly be ignored.
	That is reality. Deal with it. Otherwise, you are like an illiterate high school dropout demanding a chaired position in the English Department at Harvard. It ain't gunna happen.--] (] | ]) 15:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	:C'mon Moulton, respond. It might be good for <s>ewe</s>you. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:59, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	::How does that comment help move the discussion forward? It seems like baiting to me. and what is with the "ewe". ++]: ]/] 20:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::A bit repetitive, yew no. :) Anyway, there was nothing with the ewe, I just like playing with words, but I'll replace it sew there's know confusion. ]<sup>]</sup> 20:08, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	====Responses to Filll====
	:<Font Color="Maroon">''I guarantee if you do not agree to follow the rules and take instruction in how to behave here, you will have the same experience you did the last time. You might even be shown the door quicker.''</Font>
	Is that ] a scientific prediction grounded in a published system model or a manipulative/coercive threat per ]?
	:<Font Color="Maroon">''I know you want to "improve" the system, according to your own intuition and understanding. My interpretation is that you want to dictate rules to tens of thousands of other users, based on nothing besides the fact that you are ''Moulton''. That is not how a collaborative, consensus-driven enterprise like Misplaced Pages works. The fact that you even believe it is possible when you do not understand the system is mind-boggling, and shows you are not much of a "scientist" or "researcher" at all.''</Font>
	Are you aware, Filll, that I disbelieve in the ?
	What is your evidence and reasoning to assert as {fact} a haphazard ] regarding my beliefs?
	:<Font Color="Maroon">''If you want to try to improve the system (as I and many others do), you have to understand it first. And you will not understand it by sitting over at WR and throwing stones at Misplaced Pages with other malcontents. And you will not understand the system by demanding that you be allowed to disobey all the policies and practices and conventions, and to insult others at will who are only trying to follow the rules, and do so with impunity and no consequences.''</Font>
	What is your evidence and reasoning to support your assertion that I am demanding license to depart from all the policies, practices, and conventions set forth in ]?
	Do you maintain that you and your allied editors on the WikiProject on Intelligent Design were diligently following the guidelines of Misplaced Pages when you filed that RfC against me?
	:<Font Color="Maroon">''I would suggest that you do what I did; pick some very bland topics you are interested in, like the theatre, or some playwrite, or chess, or Arabic poetry and build up a few FA and GA articles over a few months. Get at least 20,000 edits under your belt, and write a good 100 articles or more.''</Font>
	Filll, I would suggest that you let your brain run your body, in accordance with your God-given faculties, personal value system, core beliefs, and derivative practices, and let my brain run my body, in accordance with my God-given faculties, personal value system, core beliefs, and derivative practices. Can you live with that kind of reciprocal agreement? I feel it would make life much easier for both of us if you could see your way clear to agree to those terms of engagement.
	I won't cite or respond to your remaining paragraphs, above, as I fear my responses would become annoyingly repetitive.
	] (]) 14:43, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
	== What Is the Rate of Progress? ==
	On Monday, I published an article on the blog entitled,
	I also copied it, verbatim, to a on Misplaced Pages Review.
	Today, I noticed on my watchlist that there had been some new activity on the article on ].
	Yesterday, it seems, WAS 4.250, undertook to correct a long-festering inaccuracy in that article. And he also posted a ] about it on the article's talk page. Having moved the ball closer to the goal line of accuracy, excellence, and ethics, the previous editors pushed back with all their might, so there was modest net gain in yardage at the end of two days. The article still does not acknowledge that the name, "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism" was originally just the ''headline'' on the Anti-PBS ad of 2001.
	I suppose I might have used the same 32-word petition in an ad headlined "100 Scientists Urge Rigorous Adherence to the Protocols of the Scientific Method When Examining Evidence in Support of Scientific Theories" followed by a couple of paragraphs of advertising copy explaining what that means. And I suppose I could have later launched a promotional web site, RigorInScience.Org, soliciting even more signatures. I wonder if those 100 scientists would have smiled in approval or frowned in disapproval of the way I had interpreted and promoted their previously untitled statement.
	When I wrote that Media Ethics blog article on Monday, the key references were #19 and #20, buried deep in the article. Now the key references are #1 and #2. That's as it should be, since they are the references one must examine to sort {fact} from <s>fiction</s> PR spin.
	So good for you, WAS 4.250. You're a ''mensch'' in my book. We've come a long way in a mere 10 months. We're halfway to the goal now. Zeno would be ''kvelling'' in his grave.
	And thanks to PelleSmith, too, for pointing out that whatever goes for the main article goes for the ] out there in that ever-hazardous BLP space.
	] (]) 02:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Credit goes entirely to the ID people (Felonious Monk, etc) who took my half-baked ideas and improved the article with them. ] (]) 10:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::What ID people? You mean and who <s>blanket</s> reverted you? Or do you mean those who further developed ] into a ] trying to support exactly the phrase that Dave finally changed--you know the unverifiable statement that the petition is itself "promoting intelligent design." By all means '''thanks to Dave''' for taking some initiative after being prompted by your edit and the commentary on the talk page the followed, but lets not be so quick to pat other people on the back who already have issues with self-righteousness. I remain entirely disturbed by the debacle that took place at the Picard entry, and Filll (re: below) I welcome your emergence from the simplistic behavioral modeling some people have applied. Anytime you're ready.] (]) 15:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::Guess you missed my . Is there not something at Misplaced Pages called a "bold, revert, discuss" cycle? Hmm...--] (] | ]) 16:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	::Isn't that interesting? Wow that does not fit with the simplistic model some have been pushing around here, does it?--] (] | ]) 15:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
	The rate of progress in bringing the article up to standards (in terms of accuracy, excellence, and ethics in online media) appears to be picking up the pace. An IP editor has introduced a crucial improvement in the opening sentence:
	{{quotation|'''''A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism''''' (or '''Dissent From Darwinism''') is the name given to a petition notable for its use in promoting ]. It is a list of signatories attesting to a statement, produced by the ], expressing skepticism about the ability of ] to account for the complexity of life, and encouraging careful examination of the evidence for "]". This list was first published in advertisements under an added introduction which stated that its signatories dispute the assertion that ]’s theory of ] fully explains the complexity of living things, and dispute that "all known scientific evidence supports evolution".<sup><nowiki>]<nowiki>]</nowiki><nowiki>]<nowiki>]</nowiki></sup>}}
	The most important part is the insertion of "the name given to". This important edit now helps the reader appreciate that the name given to the petition by the DI is not the name ''on'' the petition (it actually had no printed title on it at all). The article still doesn't reveal that the name initially appeared as the ''headline'' in the advertisement cited in Ref #1.
	I hope our intrepid IP editor also attends to the "]" section where the ] takes the reader to another article that begins:
	{{quotation|These are some of the individuals who have signed the ]'s pro-]/anti-] statement, '']''.}}
	So once again, we need to revise that to correct the inaccurate characterization of this list as living persons whom Misplaced Pages has inexplicably identified as proponents of ID or opponents of evolution.
	] (]) 02:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Bupkes. ]<sup>]</sup> 20:06, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	== Critical Response ==
	The ] article has been narrowly criticized on several different grounds. First, similar to related articles produced by the same group of allied editors, the professional expertise of the dominant clique of editors is not always apparent and is suspected to be deficient in scientific rigor and journalistic ethics. Also, the professional affiliations and credentials for some of the dominant editors is open to question. Finally, there appear to be many who recently participated in the substantial improvement of these articles who are not committed to the agenda of the WikiClique on Intelligent Design, and who have at times been treated abusively or who have changed their minds about trying to work with the main group of editors on these interlinked articles.
	] (]) 02:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Moulton, please consider this your only warning for any sort of attack (slight or grievous) on the editors of the ID wiki-project and any and all other editors. If your talk page is to remain open, posts like the one above need to be excluded. You have to give a little or everyone will wash their hands of your situation. So, please be mindful of this warning. I have also advised other editors to avoid baiting remarks on this page, as seen on the AN board. You may not feel the above is an attack, but considering the length of your collective postings about this particular wiki-project on WR, you would be best served by dropping this issue. If you choose to reply to this warning, please do so in a constructive manner. Thank you. ] (]) 03:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
	== Narcissistic Wounding ==
	There is a children's game which involves a kind of sting known as . You can tell when children are playing this game because they punctuate a stinging remark with, "Neener." The respondent then tosses a return barb, and signs it with, "Neener, neener."
	Not all children play this game in a spirit of good humor. Sometimes a youngster becomes stigmatized by an especially severe and flies into a .
	It is unknown what happens to stigmatized and traumatized youngsters who fail to heal themselves of Narcissistic Wounds, but I imagine it may become a for some.
	] (]) 04:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
	:If I may quote Lar, what is the point of this message? ] (]) 11:20, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
	::In a typical ], one scores ''points''. However, the mission of the WMF is to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content and effectively disseminate it around the world. That's what I'm doing here. Incidentally, whenever you see a red link here, it means Misplaced Pages does not have an article on that subject. —] (]) 15:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::... or that it's a case-sensitive redirect, as with ]. :) ''']'''&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 19:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::If I reall Narcissis was extremely "beautiful", hence he was stricken by his beauty, fell and drowned. Oh well, I guess idears fit. Sometimes. ]<sup>]</sup> 21:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::Hrmmm.... That redirect goes to an article on ], which doesn't seem to focus very much (if at all) on pedestrian instances of as applied to the majority of the population who do not suffer from that particular ] ]. As near as I can tell, the phrase "]" doesn't even appear in the article it redirects to. Is this not an opportunity for to be invited to help improve the quality of the articles that touch on this topic? —] (]) 12:18, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::Hmm, you were the first to use the term here. Nonetheless, did you notice MC's emoticon? ]<sup>]</sup> 20:14, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::Eh, there there, before it was redirected. I agree it could be a useful and informative standalone article, though I lack the grounding in psychology to produce one. Is Sam Vaknin an expert in the field? Not to be snobby, but according to teh Interwebs, his Ph.D. is from ], which some consider{{who}} an unaccredited online diploma mill. Though someone with his experience in business and politics undoubtedly has had some practical experience with narcissism... ''']'''&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 22:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::::When the stub on was replaced by a redirect to ], what happened to the brief paragraph that defined the original term? —] (]) 20:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
	(<---)That unsourced content is still there in the history. I'd be happy to add an appropriate section at ], if you will provide some relevant reliable published online sources. If the sources don't mention "Narcissistic Personality Disorder", then I can't add the claims to that article so I would recreate the ] article. Off line sources could be used if you quoted enough that I could independently decide what to write, but that probably is not worth the effort. ] (]) 20:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
	:I don't know if you consider Sam Vaknin to be a reliable subject-matter expert or not, but if you do there is no shortage of commentary from him on the subject of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (including ). I presume he could not be an actual editor here, since he wrote one of the better selling books on the subject. —] (]) 13:55, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
	::I know nothing about the phrase "Narcissistic Wounding" nor the person Sam Vaknin; which is why I'm not adding content about it until I do. One should not add content to Misplaced Pages articles until one knows enough about a subject to know whose claims to trust more and whose to trust less (if any) - i.e. who are the recognized experts and who are the recognized "nuts". Do you have evidence that you can link to that I can read that shows that I should be able to trust what Sam Vaknin says about Narcissistic Wounding? Your presumption is either an example of a tired joke or an example of your mind being warped by WR. I have already given you an example of an article written by experts on a subject. So, you like tired jokes? Or, do you like repeating ignorant claims? Or maybe you forgot my mention of ]? ] (]) 01:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
	::: first came to my attention when I heard him being interviewed on this subject on public radio some months ago. (See the article on the British television documentary, '']''.) His credentials are ''not'' in Psychology. He is Resident Political and Economic Commentator of , a "fortnightly journal of Central and Eastern European politics, society, and culture." According to the , "Vaknin has a combined doctorate in Physics and Philosophy. He is an economic and political columnist in many periodicals in a few countries and a published and awarded author of short fiction and reference books in Hebrew, English and Macedonian in Israel, Macedonia and the Czech Republic. He has collaborated with Israeli psychologists and criminologists in the study of personality disorders and is the author of . He is the editor of the Mental Health Disorders category in the Open Directory Project and the editor of the Narcissistic Personality Disorder topic in Suite101. He is serving currently as the Economic Advisor to the Government of Macedonia. His new book is ." His full CV may be found .
	:::On of , Vaknin quotes from an otherwise unidentified individual who is in therapy for ] (NPD):
	:::{{quotation|My therapist describes NPD as 'the inability to love oneself'. As she defines it, the 'narcissistic wound' is a deep wounding of the sense of self, the image of oneself. That doesn't mean that other disorders – or for that matter, other life stressors – can't also cause low self-esteem.}}
	:::It occurs to me, WAS, that the thrust of some RfC's, RfA's and RfAr's on the English Misplaced Pages (as well as some talk page feedback messages) are in the direction of . Evidently, the standard defense against such ego-bruising "personal attacks" would be to invoke ] or ]. That defensive tactic appears to me to be '']'' — ''i.e.'' ineffective at best and counter-productive at worst. Another commonly observed defense is to take a ] or somewhat longer ].
	:::Besides Sam Vaknin, I don't know of any other self-styled experts in the subject who make themselves available to members of the public as a credentialed source on the subject of ].
	:::] (]) 11:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
	(<----) Some sources refer to the "narcissistic wound" as the original cause of later adult narcissism, while other sources seem to use it to refer to specific instances of ego bruising that results in an instance of narcissistic rage. Further, narcissism is the normal condition of children and teens (we have a lot of those here at wikipedia, thus a lot of narcissistic rage) and can be an acquired condition in people who achieve fame/wealth/etc (or see themselves as being on center stage at a top ten web site?). ] (]) 12:32, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
	:Yes, that's a fair characterization. The Middle School variety of barbs and taunts supply a daily dose of Narcissistic Wounding, ranging from mildly endearing or amusing teasing and kidding to mildly annoying obnoxiousness. Occasionally a cutting remark leaves a deeper wound, and in some rare cases, a severe instance or recurring pattern of Narcissistic Wounding can spawn the adult onset of some variant of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. —] (]) 12:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
	I have adapted and excerpted the above discussion on Narcissistic Wounding into an authored and signed Knol article on . —] (]) 13:14, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
	:Sam Vaknin has posted a comment on the above referenced Google Knol article. Vaknin
	<blockquote>
	{{cquote|''''''
	Thank you for referring to my work and for a fascinting knol. I already referred to it the 26,000 members of my mailing lists.
	I have a long history with Misplaced Pages (and with Nupedia, its predecessor).
	See this essay:
	http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/wikipedia.html
	More about narcissistic injury and narcissistic rage here:
	http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/journal86.html
	http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/mask.html
	Take care and thank you again.
	}}
	</blockquote>
	:] (]) 11:03, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
	== The Peerless Editors of the WikiClique on Intelligent Design ==
	The ] of the ] are without peer.
	Which is a bit of a problem.
	You see, one of the most important concepts in the protocols of the ] is the practice of ].
	It's been a maddeningly difficult task to subject the articles of this WikiClique to outside peer review.
	The putative agenda of the WikiClique on Intelligent Design is to fight off pseudo-science — an objective that I'm quite sympathetic to.
	But it occurs to me that one cannot fight off pseudo-science with methods that do not themselves scrupulously honor the rigors of science. And so, I was chagrined to observe the WikiClique on Intelligent Design depart from the protocols of the ] in favor of ]. To my mind, one must be scrupulously rigorous in examining the evidence for any hypothesis and reason carefully to scientifically defensible conclusions enroute to the ]. And one of the most important aspects of the ] is independent ].
	The honorable scientist welcomes peer review, which often discovers correctable errors or other deficiencies which can be addressed to produce a more reliable theory or model well-grounded in evidence and reasoning. Moreover a good peer review can also introduce valuable new points of view previously overlooked.
	Is this not a good thing for an enterprise whose mission is to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content and effectively disseminate it around the world?
	] (]) 18:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Peer review is a two way street. And you have been reviewed. And guess what the verdict was?--] (] | ]) 18:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
	::I believe the jury is still out on your curious and fascinating ] of the character whose name is Moulton. Would this be a good opportunity to call for a peer review of ]? —] (]) 19:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::Well you probably should not be part of the jury. Let's let others decide, shall we?--] (] | ]) 19:52, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::Of course not. Independent ] must be done by independent parties who are not on the same research team as the primary author of a piece of scientfic analysis. —] (]) 13:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::You know most often peer review is anonymous I am sure. And you also should have read what I posted below about peer review. And should also be aware of my suggetions about it on the Expert Withdrawal pages. And someone who is a glorified engineer should not be lecturing others about the scientific method, because frankly, it looks a bit silly. Particularly your performance at the Picard article is just beyond ludicrous. What do you think the majority of the Biology Department at MIT would think of your behavior and your claims? Laughable.--] (] | ]) 15:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::I have no problem being ]. Feel free to chuckle all you like. As to my reputation for being an insufferable pedant, no one is obliged to visit my talk page if they don't care for my contributions to the educational advancement of the community. And by all means, invite the members of the MIT community here to provide independent perspectives on any of the articles or ] that are up for independent peer review. —] (]) 15:25, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::I wouldn't waste the time of any rational serious person to read through reems of material claiming that a New York Times article did not say what a New York Times article said, and that it is unethical to state that "The New York Times stated X" when it clearly did. That is ridiculous. --] (] | ]) 15:29, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::::How do you know that ''what the '''headline of one article in one newspaper''' suggested for a downstream event'', occurring in 2006, is the '''''ground truth''' for an antecedent event'' occurring in 2001? —] (]) 15:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::::Did you ever hear of the principle that Misplaced Pages is about ]? That is pretty close to how it is, whether you like it or not. For good reason. Now Picard might be an alien from another planet in reality, but since that is not in any reliable sources, we do not put it in her article. Picard might be actually a male who has had a sex change operation, but since we do not have any reliable sources about that, we do not put it in her article. Picard might actually be the Pope's love child, but since we do not have any reliable sources about that, we do not put it in her article. The New York Times might be controlled by an evil Jewish cabal that wants to attack Picard by putting false stories in the NYT about Picard, but since we do not have any reliable sources about that, we do not put in the article. You probably will not understand this, since you believe you and only you are the only correct person on planet earth and deserve to dictate to everyone else. But that is not how a collaborative consensual online environment works. And sorry, that is just how it is.--] (] | ]) 15:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	<outdent>Here is ] from last August 31, 2006:
	{{quotation|Enough is enough.--Filll 16:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
	<P>
	:So, let me get this straight. A single ill-chosen word appearing nowhere but in the headline of only one story (the content of which does not support the sweeping headline) suffices in your mind to firmly and irretrievably commit Misplaced Pages to publishing a demonstrably false (and potentially harmful and defamatory) characterization of 103 scientists, notwithstanding copious evidence to the contrary? Moulton 20:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
	<P>
	It is over, and time for the RfC I believe.--Filll 21:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)}}
	] (]) 16:00, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Yeah? So? The fact that you wanted to tendentiously argue and argue and argue and argue and fight with other editors, lie to me, not follow my direction when I told you how to fix Picard's biography, and get the police involved when I tried to help you, and generally cause huge chaos should be welcomed with open arms? If Misplaced Pages is involved in defamation, so is the New York Times. I know you contacted Mike Godwin. Did he think you had a defamation case? File an OTRS ticket. Hire a lawyer yourself and ask. But you have continued down the same path. Plenty of your fellow malcontents at WR have told you you are going about this the wrong way, and they are correct. Why did you not follow Durova's suggestion when she told you how to fix this? Why did you not follow Kim Bruning's advice when he told you how to behave? Why did Lar and WAS 4.250 eventually give up hope when they tried to argue your case and help you? I see nothing but the same pattern repeated over and over and over. You burn every bridge you have. Why is that? Are we just rats in a cage for you to experiment with? Want to see our reactions? Want to see how annoying you can be before someone does something imprundent? Will you write it all up in a nice blog entry or a draft of some research paper? Publish it on your website? Put in a school newspaper at some minor college? --] (] | ]) 20:32, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	::Do you take exception to the practice of writing a personal memoir that bears accurate witness to an exceptional episode in one's life? —] (]) 00:10, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	:And this is supposed to make people think you should be unblocked? All of your recent rants here are ample evidence that you are unsuited to participating constructively at Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 19:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
	::I have not requested to be unblocked. The community's ] of last year (and the ) may or may not lead them to conclusively determine if the original handling of my case was normative or not. If the Misplaced Pages community at large determines it was perfectly normative, then that will satisfy me and I will have no further interest in participating in the Misplaced Pages community, going forward. So far, the community's opinion on that issue appears to be mixed and unsettled. —] (]) 13:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::Moulton, ''this'' community is about creating the best encyclopedia we can; not resolving issues of right and wrong, who has been naught or nice, or due process or normativeness. We kick people out when some of us think that they are a liability to encyclopedia making and let them back in when some of us think that they will be an asset. Perhaps you will understand if I speak your language. You asked "Was I given due process?" Arbcom said "Mu." You ask now "Was the treatment afforded me normative?" The community says "Mu." ] (]) 19:49, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::WAS, there is an interesting quote at the end of an by an interesting genius named ]:
	::::{{quotation|If you want to get the plain truth,<br>Be not concerned with right and wrong.<br>The conflict between right and wrong<br>Is the sickness of the mind.}}
	::::The quote is attributed to the ] poet, ]. —] (]) 00:10, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::"''there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so''" ] (]) 07:48, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::There is similar Taoist proverb along the same lines: {{quotation|Think about Right and Wrong, and one immediately falls into Error. —Taoist Proverb}}
	::::::Or, for a considerably drier and more analytical investigation into the same meme, see this unauthorized essay: ''''''. —] (]) 10:18, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	It occurs to me there are scant journalistic peer reviews of the Misplaced Pages articles crafted by the ]. A significant indicator of how the ] has failed to live up to either scientific or journalistic warrant is the virtual absence of peer-reviewed analyses of their work. Despite this, the ] continues to take ] in a number of their articles, at least ] reached ] status. Critics, including members of the scientific, academic, and journalistic community, are skeptical of the accuracy and disappointed in the quality of much of this group's work, pointing out that no established newspaper or magazine has yet published a favorable review of any of Misplaced Pages's intelligent design articles. Instead, intelligent design editors have set up their own RfC processes with "peer review" which lacks impartiality and rigor, consisting almost entirely of intelligent design editors ratifying their own preferred point of view. —] (]) 07:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
	:You should know that we have had an outside peer-review of our ] article and it was quite positive. We also get informal peer-reviews of our ] article. Both of these, as well as ] were extensively reviewed as part of the inhouse FAC process. And you, as a systems scientist who works on online communities and journalism and affective computing, are qualified to review articles in this area? How many times has Nature Cell Biology or Cell contacted you recently for a review of an article? I guess you did a lot of reviewing for Creation/Evolution journal? ] has had you review works like ''Creationism's Trojan Horse'' have they? You are a renowned expert in this area are you?--] (] | ]) 19:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
	::] is not real science. That's why they support ID, because they don't understand ]. Engineers, computer engineers, etc. aren't scientists. But what do I know, my IQ probably doesn't break 2 digits. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 22:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::I am unclear on the distinctions you are making between ] and "real science." For the first half of my career I was a Systems Engineer with the Bell System. In the late 1980's my job classification at MITRE was "Lead Engineer" in an organization that also had a job classification of "Lead Scientist". By 1990, I had become a "Visiting Scientist" at BBN bridging the gap between ] and ]. The transition from ] to ] was cemented when my colleagues and I at the MIT Media Lab garnered the ]. —] (]) 12:45, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	Upthread, we directed the reader's attention to a curious ] of me that ] had published in his user space.
	It seems the practice has metastasized. Now ] has similarly crafted a novel of yours truly in his user space. This one begs for scientific peer review, to see whether each item of evidence is probative of the hypothesized claims that rest upon the cited items of evidence. I propose we find a young scientist for this one. Perhaps someone between the ages of 12 and 15 would do. Your model for this exercise would be the a week or two ago for the ].
	] (]) 04:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
	== No, not you ==
	No, I wasn't referring to you. I meant all the things they have said about people like Slim Virgin. I don't think you're making sense, but I wouldn't call what you had to say "filth". ] (]) 02:51, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	:As far as I know, I haven't said anything to or about SV, as I've never had occasion to encounter her in the pages of Misplaced Pages. Her backstory may be of interest to some but it holds no fascination or thrall for me. —] (]) 03:12, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	::Thrall? Hmm. ]<sup>]</sup> 05:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::'''Thrall''' "''a. One, such as a slave or serf, who is held in bondage. b. One who is intellectually or morally enslaved. 2. Servitude; bondage: "a people in thrall to the miracles of commerce"''" Moulton is simply saying that he is not in bondage or a slave, mentally or physically, to uncovering a so-called "slim virgin" - to seeking the "backstory" of "Slimvirgin". He claims no fascination with spreading wide the fascinating tale of her prior escapades nor her history of involvements. Makes sense to me. What's your problem? ] (]) 10:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::I will freely admit to my genuine obsessions. I am quite frankly attached to the goal of seeing Misplaced Pages rise to a commendable level of accuracy, excellence, and ethics in media, especially when the subject of a mainspace article (or even a ]) is an identifiable living person. —] (]) 11:31, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::So now are you going to claim that my account and my advice and other information in that subpage is somehow invalid or defamatory, although it can all be backed up with diffs and personal emails and offwiki materials? Do you really insist on making this very very ugly? Do you really want to have your named dragged through the mud? What on earth? I mean you no harm. I just do not want you spewing nonsense on Misplaced Pages that others have to deal with and clean up, at tremendous cost. --] (] | ]) 20:06, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::I have expressed at some length to Kim Bruning my desire that the ] of me which you have drawn on your user pages be reviewed for compliance with ], per this clause:
	::::::{{quotation|'''Non-article space'''<br><br>As the introduction says:<blockquote>Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons—whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion, from Misplaced Pages articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space.</blockquote>}}
	::::::] (]) 09:29, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::By the way, what are we to make of your far worse attacks on me and other editors here on Misplaced Pages at off-wiki venues? I start to see how you were previously "targeted" in your previous difficulties with online communities. Behaving like this is not the way to make friends and influence people, at least influence them in a positive way. Please try to reconsider your stance and behave in a civilized reasonable fashion. This is just not some game here you know. And attacking others will not help you reach your goals. --] (] | ]) 20:15, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::::I recommend and propose that those off-wiki commentaries under my journalistic byline be independently peer reviewed for accuracy, ethics, and scientific rigor, in accordance with the protocols the scientific method and journalistic standards of excellence. —] (]) 09:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::Interestingly, I have just been contacted by someone from ] with an account of your tremendously obnoxious behavior there and disruption there. So that makes three other online communities that you have caused so much trouble in that they have taken various steps against you. That is three BESIDES Misplaced Pages, making at least four in all. Do you think if I looked further I might find more of these examples? Come on now, do you really expect us to treat you seriously after your past history here and in other online communities?--] (] | ]) 20:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::::Would that perchance be someone from there? —] (]) 09:47, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::::Ah, well. That makes sense. Jon Awbrey has a similar past. And both seem to be wearing out their welcome at WR also including with each other. A prior comment you made about treating wikipedians as lab rats and other guesses was also an impression he gave me. But this whole thing as simply an expression of a personality flaw that he is incapable of fixing and has displayed elsewhere does seem to fit the facts better. But we are still guessing. In any case it seems abundantly clear that he is not suited to wikipedia. Oh, and an earlier comment about his use of the word "]" - I agree that it an example of his inability to successfully communicate - it is almost as if he ''goes out of his way'' to be difficult. Like Jon. ] (]) 21:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::::I take exception to being placed in the same class as Jon Awbrey. We are each idiosyncratically iconoclastic and '']'' in our own uniquely irritating way. —] (]) 09:55, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	:(ri) Now Filll, you know that some of us are thralls to drama. No biggie really, probably better than living on haldol. (WAS -- thrall ain't no verb, unless you're Alfred Lawn Tennison). Mouton, I said poetic, not arcane. ]<sup>]</sup> 21:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	::Jim62sch, English is more flexible than that. If I choose to use a noun as a verb, it is part of the nature of the English language that it be allowed so long as its meaning is clear. ] (]) 21:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::No... verbing wierds the language. :) ''']'''&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 22:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2006/02/26/curbing_the_verbing/ :) ] (]) 23:20, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::Thanks for the link - I thought I was quoting '']'', but turns out it was Calvin. ''']'''&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 05:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::WAS, I'm quite aware of the incredible flexibility of the English language, thank you. However, as I noted, thrall as used above is arcane. (My bad saying it was a verb). But, as I too use arcane words, I suppose I shouldn't bitch. Sorry Moulton, sometimes I get pissy over silly crap. ]<sup>]</sup> 20:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::I occasionally interject an uncommon term into a dialogue, when I feel there is a meme in play that lacks a good name. It's a curious feature of psychology that conversations tend to orbit around otherwise unnamed issues or ideas. As an educator, I confess that I enjoy searching for these ] and looking up their proper name. —] (]) 04:34, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::Well, we have two things in common: a love for uncommon terms and, I'm guessing, a repect for Vonegut. Sometimes though, there really is no wampeter and ya just have to create a neologism (preferably from Greek or German roots). ]<sup>]</sup> 19:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::How about this one: (in homage to the late ]). —] (]) 16:34, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
	== Delusional ==
	Moulton, you said, just now: "''To my mind, answering it, "Yes," would have amounted to participating in an instance of ] which would have potentially endangered your status here.''" Frankly, that's a delusional response on your part to a plea from me for you to agree to '''try'''. Try what? Read it again. If you are so defensive about being merely asked to try to edit in a collaborative fashion, no wonder you show every sign that you are unfit to edit here. As for ] and comments here about you, the key part is
	:"''In project space, we maintain information about users that we need to make administrative choices. These pages are visible to everyone for the sake of openness and transparency, which is essential to the success and health of the WikiMedia mission. Usernames at Misplaced Pages are often associated with off-Misplaced Pages identities, and negative comments can be the source of difficulties, including legal problems. It helps both the people behind these identities and Misplaced Pages itself if this information is dealt with thoughtfully, carefully, and even creatively in edge cases. If in doubt about the appropriateness of publishing certain claims about living persons in project space, unbiased consultation is still important, but one should take care not to publish effectively the same information in seeking advice. Consider using alternative means other than on-wiki posting if necessary, such as e-mail, to discuss the issue with other editors, administrators, or the Arbitration Committee.''" (most of which I wrote)
	We need to keep certain data on you for purposes of knowing how to deal with you. But we should accommodate you as much as possible within that limit. Perhaps it would be best to end this farce and make the pages you find objectionable (perhaps including this one) visible only to admins. ] (]) 13:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	:WAS, if you think that concern is delusional, please take note of the model I relied on to reckon that concern. As you may be aware, there is an allegation against Cla68 that he has leveled a coercive threat against members of the Wikiproject on ID. Earlier this morning, before I came here to my talk page, I was reviewing some newly filed evidence and analysis against Cla68.
	:You can find it . I had viewed the disturbing event in question as an instance of Cla68 making a plausible scientific prediction — that something was likely to happen because the conditions were ripe for it to happen. But another observer viewed it not as a scientific prediction, but as a threat to intentionally ''cause'' the event in question to occur, and he viewed it as coercion in the form of an ]: "Stand down or else this bad thing will come to pass."
	:That was an eye-opener for me, WAS, because I hadn't appreciated the subtle distinction between viewing an ] as a scientific model of reality vs viewing it as an act of bullying.
	:Now which of those two ways of viewing it is the ground truth, and which is delusional? And how can you reliably tell which view is accurate?
	:] (]) 15:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	::Oh, I see. You were not being delusional. You were using your explanation as an opportunity to express dissatisfaction with an allegation against Cla68. You operate on many levels, as do all highly intelligent people. I am glad that I misread you. ] (]) 15:56, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::Alas, these text-only conversation spaces are susceptible to misreading because they filter out all the non-verbal cues that normally help us establish the emotional tenor. Without that affective cueing sub-channel, it's maddeningly hard to infer affective attitude or intentionality. In the jungle, that's called ]. Here in cyberspace, I call it ]. If you find yourself perplexed as to what affective state I'm in, your best default assumption is that I'm in a state of perplexity. That's my normal baseline state, most of the time. —] (]) 16:17, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Turning now to the WP:BLP issue, the policy you cite refers to ''project space'', not ''user space''. And the policy further refers to administrative decision-making. The ] I referred to is in user space, not project space, and it's maintained by someone who (as far as I know) is not an administrator.
	:Since I am unable to respond in that person's user space, I responded , instead.
	:] (]) 16:05, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::I see that our rules totally perplex you. Applying them literally doesn't work - you need to extract the ''point'' and apply that, using the details as an example of an application of the point. Real law is also like that. In this case, even tho some of the content in question is in user space, the content is project related in the sense being refered to in the project space details and so the point in that section needs to be groked. ] (]) 10:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
	::"Scientific explanation" is stretching just a bit. Based on the wording of the original and subsequent statements Cla68's verbiage can only be seen as not so diaphanously veiled threats issued in public fora. Clinton's parsing of "is" made sense; saying that Cla68 was being scientific is nonsense. When "if X then Y" contains an "or else" there is clearly an implied threat, not a statement of unconditional certainty. ]<sup>]</sup> 20:58, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::Well, that's the point of the conversation, is it not? An ] is a curious grammatical construction. On the one hand it can be a matter-of-fact observation about reality (If you want to get to Harlem, you had better take the 'A' train.). On the other hand, it can be a blatant bullying remark (If you want to get along here, you have to do as I say.). I read Cla68's remark as an assessment of the likelihood of an anticipated event rather than as an anankastic expression of any ''intention to cause the event'' in question if certain prudently recommended adjustments didn't happen first. Being a scientist, rather than a bully, I try to make sure that I couch scientific theories and predictions in language that cannot be mistaken as a bullying or coercive threat, as if I have the power to control the future. But most people are not that cognizant of such ambiguous or confusing ways of parsing a poorly worded ]. Note that in the context of a ''game'', the players ''do'' have presumptive power to strongly influence the future course of events in the gameplay. Sometimes I do wonder if Misplaced Pages is more of a game than a traditional educational enterprise. —] (]) 04:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::Yep, that's the point. We all, on occasion, word things poorly, but Cla68 persisted in this style of wording so it was read by most as a threat. Perhaps it was just clumsiness, but based upon the corpus delicti established by his prior interactions, I really have to wonder. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:51, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
	Speaking of delusional vs. ground truth, here is today's exercise in teasing apart those two categories of beliefs and assertions.
	Take a look at the ''very first sentence'' (above the article table of contents) of ]. To borrow a ] from Jim, is it '']'' or not? Can you support your thesis with evidence and reasoning? —] (]) 14:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Oh dear. It's been two days and none of the Earthlings have shown up for class in this section of the since I posted the above assignment. Perhaps I was deluding myself into believing anyone cared. —] (]) 09:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
	== ==
	Please see the above request for arbitration that I have filed regarding your block status. Please feel free to create a statement here, and I, or another user will copy it across to the main RfArb page. Regards, ] 20:36, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Thank you, Ryan. This posting will serve to acknowledge that I am now aware of the RfArb. I will think carefully about what to put into a statement to the ArbCom, after I have had a chance to discuss my range of options and clarify my interests, issues, and objectives with those who would consent to counsel me in this matter, going forward. —] (]) 05:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
	::I expect that you will make some long beside-the-point comment and yet again be told "Mu". I suggest that you simply say "No thanks, I do not wish to be unblocked." or "I would like to be unblocked as a symbol to re-establish my good name; but I do not intend to edit anything other than my talk page and other forums where comments are made concerning me." or "Please unblock me; I plan to edit constructively (or I will try to edit appropriately)." or some similar short statement. ] partly exists for cases like yourself where the person is perplexed by the rules and thus is simply counseled to make the encyclopedia better (and "don't be a dick" is sometimes added). Please read ] and its corollary http://meta.wikimedia.org/Don't_be_a_dick. Maybe you will become less perplexed. ] (]) 10:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::Thank you for bringing to my attention the ] that interprets the meaning and application of ]. That page made eminently good sense to me and concords without noticeable discrepancy with my own concept of how I strive to operate in life (at least when I have my senses and wits about me). Another useful criterion, albeit a bit mathematical, is to ensure that every deliberate step is intended to reduce the entropy of the content of the Wiki knowledge base here. In this case the direction of increased orderliness in ''this'' project would be defined as improving the accuracy, excellence, and ethics of the content of the encyclopedia (including attendant discussions), with due appreciation for the overarching to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content and effectively disseminate it around the world. As to your scientific prediction of what the outcome of the ArbCom case will be, that will be a fascinating demonstration of the protocols of the scientific method as it confirms or refutes the prediction emanating from your current model. But that also raises another useful question, WAS. If you anticipate that whatever I submit to ArbCom will, in all likelihood (per your current model), be "beside the point" could you spell out what, in your view, ''is'' the point that Ryan had in mind for ArbCom when he initiated the Request for Arbitration? —] (]) 12:09, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::Addendum: With regard to ], I would have couched that meme in terms of minimizing the resort to ]. ''Neener.'' —] (]) 12:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)≈
	::::"''Thank you''" Welcome. "''ensure that every deliberate step is intended to reduce the entropy of the content of the Wiki knowledge base here.''" Can't happen. "''improving the accuracy, excellence, and ethics of the content of the encyclopedia (including attendant discussions), with due appreciation for the overarching to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content and effectively disseminate it around the world.''" "improving" is a fine goal; but actually achieving it anytime soon is way too ambitious for available resources - we still are not staffed up appropriately at the foundation and we still don't have "stable versions" - crawl before we walk, walk before we run "''As to your scientific prediction of what the outcome of the ArbCom case will be"'' I have no such predictions, except I doubt a majority of arbcom will even read all the comments "''could you spell out what, in your view, is the point that Ryan had in mind for ArbCom when he initiated the Request for Arbitration?''" I expect that he thought that was proper process and so initiated the process on that basis rather than evaluating options, strategies and outcomes as you or I would have done. ] (]) 13:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::It's hard for me to pick up your affective tone here, WAS, but it's coming through as more cynical and pessimistic than optimistic. Are you really saying that the mean drift in overall quality is currently ''retrograde'', and that turning that around so that the net direction of motion is one of gradual net overall improvement is not yet on the horizon?!? I find it hard to believe you are actually saying that. —] (]) 16:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::I give myself an "F" in communicating in that last exchange. As you suspect, I did not accurately convey what I think. So I'll try again. I think Misplaced Pages is useful and every year more useful than the last. I think the WikiMedia Foundation is getting better every year than the last. (Which is no surprise as it had no where to go but up - nonexistence to existence - no money to some money - inadequate servers to enough servers - volunteers to untrained paid staff to trained professional staff to now fully appropriately staffing up with people who can get grant money pay for their salaries and salaries of more software engineers and for various mission related projects.) I think the community is very much larger than it used to be and is getting worse in average competence and understanding of what we are trying to do here (think "Forever September"); but enculturating them has become part of the mission. Whether that will work or not, I have no idea. But if it does not work, then the Foundation will take some drastic steps (maybe even similar to some items Greg proposes in his answers on Meta to questions to board candidates). We hope it won't come to that, but if the community moves away from the Foundation Mission, then we will in the end part ways, and those who no longer want to be a part of helping with that mission can move on to other web sites where they can pursue their alternative objectives. To illustrate what I am talking about, review the efforts of the board to restrict ] photos and the resistance but ultimate acceptance of that. Copy-left is a very important part of the vision of the founders, original editors and the current board; because it is critical to the vision of free of cost information to all humanity. Many at WR are dead set against the copy-left vision of increasing freedom and information for all humans. (We follow on the lead of ] - this accounts for the high proportion of computer experts in the founding of this community. This vision is a direct response to understanding the possibilities allowed by computers and the internet.) ] (]) 01:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::Hrmmm... We seem to be talking about largely unrelated subjects here. I was talking about adopting a personal work ethic that strives to leave everything I touch in somewhat better shape than I found it. You seem to be talking about the mean demographic competence of the population of participants (which I take it is declining over time). That reminds me of a criticism about the terrible condition of Georgia's prisons. Governor Lester Maddox responded that things were not likely to get better in Georgia's prisons until Georgia got a better class of prisoner. —] (]) 02:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::::"''strive to leave everything I touch in somewhat better shape than I found it''" is an ethical standard taught to me by my father (a career military officer) in the context of moving from one house on a military base to another house on a military base on an average of once every two years over the entire period of my youth. Another ethical lesson was learned from watching him in his flight suit on a flight-line on a SAC base while having a picnic with us his family as he was not permitted to stray far from his nuclear bomb equipped airplane for extended periods. I remember looking at his flight gear, looking at the meat cooking, looking at the bombs under the wings of a plane visible on the other side of a barbed wire fence... ] (]) 09:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::::Would that SAC base perchance be ]? (I grew up in ] and lived in ] until I graduated from the ] at Lincoln.) —] (]) 12:46, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::::::: No, I've never lived in Nebraska. I've lived in 15 other states though. ] (]) 19:39, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	::Please note that we are a goal-driven system and not a rule-driven system; so all your complaints about "''Hammurabi, among others) had introduced a tragic logic error into their calculus. Rather than call it "Original Sin," I'd rather call it "Hammurabi's Original Logic Error" or "Humankind's Original Logic Error."''" do not apply. If fact, as I noted higher up a minute ago, real government laws are also not mindlessly applied in the way that would be necessary for your proposition about "Hammurabi's Original Logic Error" to have validity. Contrary to your expectations and presumptions, lawyers and judges do not treat laws the way logic experts and software engineers treat rules. This has been a frequent point of misunderstanding at Slashdot, for example. ] (]) 10:52, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::I am no stranger to lamentable misunderstandings and concomitant misadventures at Slashdot, but that is beside the point. I, too, am a goal-oriented person, as I spelled out in this essay from twenty years ago: ''''''. Off-Wiki, I'd be glad to discuss with you or anyone else the philosophical and mathematical ideas summarized in ''''''. —] (]) 12:09, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
	===Defining the Issues Before ArbCom===
	The discussion at ] encompasses multiple issues, not all of which may be suitable or ripe for urgent ArbCom attention. As I read the criteria for which kinds of disputes ArbCom handles, this criterion stands out:
	{{quotation|Unusually divisive disputes among administrators}}
	That one seems to match what Ryan Postlethwaite has submitted to ArbCom. His observation is that the community appears to be sharply divided over two issues. One issue is whether the ] was a normative process with a normative outcome, in accordance with "the way Wikipedians do things around here" (i.e. prevailing Misplaced Pages culture), or whether the ] was a sham and a delusion, departing from the ''professed'' way things are done here. Opinions are divided in the community. My opinion on that probably is irrelevant, as I'm hardly an objective observer. All I can do is , and hope to get a straight answer. Having asked it, I have no role in answering it. If ArbCom concludes that the system malfunctioned, I imagine it will be up to the community to decide how to correct whatever defect led to the diagnosed malfunction. I hardly expect anyone to be interested in my advice on how to repair it.
	Another conceivable issue before ArbCom is whether the original content dispute leading up to the ] should be relitigated. But as I understand it, ArbCom doesn't handle content disputes, only conduct disputes. And in any event, the normative ] processes for content disputes were ], having been short-circuited by a premature ]. So if ArbCom decides the original content dispute was never properly litigated, they might remand it back to normative ]. Should that happen, I would expect to participate in that process.
	In the meantime, I have submitted a list of 10 priorities that are of direct interest to me. They do not include a request to be unblocked. It's possible that once those 10 priorities are addressed and resolved, the divide at ] will melt away, obviating the need for an RfAr at all. Or there might emerge some residual issues that are more sharply and narrowly defined. In either event, it occurs to me that there is no rush to consume ArbCom resources until other available procedures have run their due course.
	] (]) 04:38, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Congratulations. You now seem to have a handle on "how things are done" around here. Your use of terminology is nonstandard, but maybe your lack of using TLA every second sentence is for the best. :) ] (]) 10:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	:There is a very funny page somewhere around here on TLAs, but I couldn't find it (maybe it was deleted?) ... anyway, I ran across this while looking for it; thought you might like a chuckle. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:God:_Valuable_Wikipedian%2C_or_disruptive_editor_with_a_history_of_sockpuppetry%3F
	:] (]) 10:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	::A Google search on " leads directly to an article on ]. With respect to heavenly flights of fancy through the fifth dimension, see . —] (]) 12:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	::Addendum: Scrolling down through the , I'm gonna make a wild guess and say is the one you had in mind. —] (]) 13:22, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::Yes. ] is the one I was thinking of. ] (]) 19:44, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::Praise be to Google, one of the ] antidotes to ]. —] (]) 21:54, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	===RfAr/Moulton Dismissed as Untimely===
	On May 29th, after four days, the above was by ] as untimely, with a vote tally of (0/4/1/1). —] (]) 14:04, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
	== Why? ==
	You have asked at WR: "''Should Misplaced Pages reform its regulatory structure to better respect modern society's concept of Civil Rights and Due Process?''"
	Why would we do that? How does it help with "''improving the accuracy, excellence, and ethics of the content of the encyclopedia (including attendant discussions), with due appreciation for the overarching mission of WMF to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content and effectively disseminate it around the world.''"?
	What is your (scientific I presume) basis for believing this is an optimum use of volunteer resources?
	There is no doubt changes need to be made. The question is what changes are best and how to select and implement those changes given the volunteer nature of the community and the goals of the foundation and the goals of the community.
	See ] for other thoughts. ] (]) 21:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	:That's the to the . For example, is it an important aspect of the educational mission of WMF to promote education into issues of human and civil rights around the world? . Maybe not. If so, do prospective WMF board members believe WMF has an obligation to be a good ] for practicing ideas worth disseminating to children around the world? It seems like an interesting question to me.
	:I don't know that Misplaced Pages, as a sponsored project of WMF, would do that, or even ''think'' about doing that. But I would be interested in hearing the WMF Board Election Candidates opine on the question, nevertheless. It's less about Misplaced Pages and more about gaining insight into the beliefs and values of those running for leadership positions at WMF.
	:One of the things I notice is a substantial amount of volunteer time, system resources, and emotional energy is expended on questions and issues arising in the wake of unjust treatment of would-be participants in the project. As you know, systemic injustice is a source of unpeace and anger. It occurs to me that minimizing the instances of unpeace, indignation, and anger might improve the overall efficiency of the enterprise. It's just a idea of mine, with some .
	:As you may know, WAS, that constructing an organizational ] is a worthwhile exercise for any organization that seriously seeks to reach an overarching goal.
	:] (]) 22:25, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Addendum: See to the ten discussants on the Foundation-l mailing list who had taken up this issue. See also the of the WMF Committee on Elections. —] (]) 08:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
	WikiMedia's values, are
	*'''Freedom''' (open formats, open standards, content not subject to restrictions on creation, use, and reuse) in short ]
	*'''Accessibility and quality''' (online 24/7, free dumps, DVD's, books, PDF's)
	*'''Independence''' (ensure our organization stays free of influence)
	*'''Commitment to openness and diversity''' (international, no discrimination based on their religion, political beliefs, sexual preferences, nationalities, etc)
	*'''Transparency'''
	*'''Our community is our biggest asset''' (must respect the work and the ideas of our community)
	Perhaps "Civil Rights and Due Process" can be thought of as part of the Foundation's implementation of the "respect" part of its "Our community is our biggest asset" value. ] (]) 22:59, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	:That's very helpful. On the Meta page, :
	:{{quotation|'''Freedom'''<P>Personally, I want the WMF to maintain a community free from undue constraints that will in turn create a body of knowledge which can be distributed freely throughout the world. In my opinion, that is the kind of intellectual freedom at the heart of what WMF ought to be setting out to accomplish, and which should be at the core of what we value. I realize this overlaps with the Mission Statement, etc., but frankly it is so basic to what we do, that I think it ought to overlap. Free content, Free tools for collaboration, Freedom to fork, Freedom from undue influences, etc.}}
	:I especially resonate with Anthere's allusion to freedom from undue constraints that stifle intellectual freedom and integrity. Since Anthere expresses that sentiment as something the Foundation ''ought'' to be adopting as a goal, it's not clear that such a set of organizational or community values currently obtains. (Certainly in my earlier misadventures here, those precepts were manifestly ''not'' in evidence.) Perhaps bringing those values to the fore would amount to a disruptive sea change in "the way we do things here." That is to say, it might well be met with considerable resistance from the community.
	:] (]) 00:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
	::I would guess that you are misreading that. The creation of this values page is a recent endevor by Anthere as part of her effort to implement her recent learnings in how to manage an organization. She is, I believe, trying not to single-handedly declare ''her'' vision as ''our'' vision, so she is expressing herself softly. That's my reading anyway. I could be wrong of course. ] (]) 08:25, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::It wouldn't surprise me a bit if I am misreading the politics (as opposed to the science, ethics, or imaginative vision) of Anthere's review of WMF values, and their relevance to the English Misplaced Pages Project. One of the things that has confused me is how to tease apart the surface objective of crafting an authentic English language encyclopedia from the subtext and socio-political dynamics of an '''''' populated by disposable avatars rather than credentialed authors. —] (]) 12:01, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::Yes, that has become clear. I would recommend trying to understand the English language Misplaced Pages's community dynamics in terms of its historical development from a mere test or gamble or experiment to fix a '''costly''' complete failure (Nupedia). The experiment to provide a sandbox as material for Nupedia succeeded beyond anyone's expectations or imaginings as a useful semi-accurate encyclopedia in its own right. The "anyone can edit" aspect seemed to be a magical formula for success, so no one wanted to mess with it (kill the goose that lays the golden egg). The golden eggs are the vetted non-editable encyclopedias we have and will continue to create from the source material created by "anyone can edit" (the goose). Perhaps you tried joining the wrong community. Perhaps one of the communities you wish to join would be one of those that create the vetted non-editable encyclopedias (see http://meta.wikimedia.org/Wikipedia_on_CD/DVD). The trouble is that this unruly wikipedia community and its huge collection of useful unvetted claims in encyclopedic format is so ludicrously popular that everyone wants to get involved here in spite of its manifest limitations. We are hoping that with the stable versions software we can evolve this unreasonably popular semi-accurate encyclopedia ''into'' a vetted version. We are making this up as we go. No one has ever done this before. ] (]) 21:53, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::Actually, it hadn't even occurred to me that Misplaced Pages was an instance of ] when I began editing in earnest last August. Previously, I had just made a modest number of incidental edits, mostly small corrections or improvements in articles I happened to be reading in the routine course of my regular work. When I first encountered adversarial editors, it came as something of a shock. This was not how ''I'' conceived of a . What I ran into was more like a community of ''malpractice''. While I suppose it's true that no one had ever tried an open-source wiki-based encyclopedia before, there are plenty of people who have organized successful ] before. Notable among these practitioners is ] who wrote the book on ''''. —] (]) 23:49, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::::Perhaps you can better understand what I mean by "No one has ever done this before" when I ask you to provide a link to the constantly-updated on-line free-of-cost copy-left encyclopedia with millions of articles in hundreds of languages other than wikipedia. ] (]) 04:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::The closest analog I know of is , which has 178,667 software projects, crafted by 1,860,180 registered participants, programming in dozens of computer languages (with documentation and user interfaces also in dozens of human languages and ]). They have 836 listed projects just for developing . is the world's largest ] development web site, providing free hosting to Open Source ] projects with a centralized resource for managing projects, issues, communications, and code. ] exemplifies ] with many projects ranging toward world-class levels of excellence. —] (]) 06:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
	------
	What options do you think we have for implementing such a thing? I am completely unclear what the operational mechanism and safeguards and checks and balances would be to make sure that the intended result was the actual result. Power corrupts. ] (]) 23:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Civil and Human Rights and Due Process are Constitutional issues. They are so fundamental that no mere interpretive rule or bureaucratic procedure can be permitted to overthrow anything so fundamental as a core cultural value of that caliber. I would like to think that those core values are in there, somewhere in the dialogue that Anthere collated onto that Meta page. She doesn't identify the speaker in this next quote:
	:{{quotation|'''Community'''<P>I think Florence's idea of 'community' as a collaborative, cooperative, mix of supporters is a highly significant value. In that case communications has a lot to do with listening and sharing from all parties. And 'community' is central to what makes us successful, it's where so much of our strength, capacity, and energy flourishes.}}
	:In view of that reinforcing remark, I find it hard to understand why it's been so difficult for other voices to be heard in the conversation, and why there has been so much contention and divisiveness over whether other voices deserve a hearing.
	:I agree that power corrupts. To the best of my knowledge, there is only one affordance that operates reliably as a check against the undue exercise of power. That affordance is the freedom (and obligation) to bear accurate witness. It's the ''only'' power I have. And it's also the only power the enterprise of science has. When I do my best to bear accurate witness, I am also doing my best to be faithful to the protocols of the scientific method. I know of no other reliable method to overthrow the delusions and depredations of unbridled political power.
	:Over at MIT, a , whom I first met online when she was 12 years old, had invited me to join her friends in the Freshman dorm for dinner one evening. On the wall of her dorm suite was this remarkable poster:
	:{{quotation|<Center>'''Knowledge Is Power.'''<BR>'''Study Hard.'''<BR>'''Become Evil.'''</Center>}}
	:] (]) 00:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
	::If the operational mechanism for Civil and Human Rights and Due Process is the freedom to bear accurate witness then you and we ''already'' have it. Ain't no tape on your mouth. ] (]) 08:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::Yes, I realize that I can publish my best and most reliable view of the ground truth as best as I am able to construct it, either on my own , on , on the , on , on other forums like or , here on ], or on other Wikis besides the English Misplaced Pages. The ] in my mind is whether speaking the truth as I perceive it advances the goals of education, healing, and peace, all of which I hold dear. There are some remarks I can publish — remarks as close to ] as any mortal would ever hope to get — which would likely cause some individuals to suffer grievously. This is where the ] becomes difficult to apply. My best guidance on this conundrum comes from a seminal thinker named ], who said, "If ''I'' am not for me, who ''will'' be? But if I am ''only'' for me, what ''am'' I?" For reasons known only to ] than ''moi'', my cup runneth over today with delicious ]. —] (]) 12:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::: You ask in the edit summary "''The Ethics of Speaking the Truth to Power — When is it timely?''" Answer: When evidence based reasoning indicates it will do more good than other available options. (not "more good than harm" - there is a difference) Which you know, and thus you ask above "''The ] in my mind is whether speaking the truth as I perceive it advances the goals of education, healing, and peace, all of which I hold dear.''" The "truth as I perceive it" is an interesting concept. As you know all humans self-deceive and have other mental limitations to some degree. So part of the equation becomes, "To what degree can I count on my perception of truth regarding this matter to be free of error caused by my limitations (self-deceptions, repression, delusion, ignorance, stupidity)?" The scientific answer for that is objective consensus among informed sane people. There appears to be an objective consensus by people at various web-sites about your behavior that you find perplexing. (added note: While the WR discussion shows some problems with FM's evidence, these 3 links provided by you adequately show my meaning ) That would appear to be the result of your mind (sub or un or non conscious) hiding something from you (conscious). What might that be? ] (]) 16:13, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::The core challenge of ] has for ages. Here is another of the caliber you allude to. But before anyone becomes too intoxicated with the colorful Kool Aid there, you might ask yourself two questions: How did I come into possession of that traffic, and why do I have it publicly posted on my personal web site? I'll leave that as a tantalizing puzzle, the solution to which may or may not be still available to the intrepid Google searcher. Meantime, have you gotten to the remarkable Bela/SimHacker connection yet? —] (]) 20:13, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
	(<---)I guess you don't care to discuss your psychology. Most people don't, so I'll drop it. Care to provide a link to the "Bela/SimHacker connection" and tell me what you wish me to notice about it? ] (]) 22:29, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Oh! Is ''that'' you wanted me to talk about?!? My ''psychology?'' Sure. No problem. I talked about that at some length . (Note that this link goes to a section of Misplaced Pages Review which is not accessible unless you are logged in. Please feel free to join in the discussion there.) As to the Bela/SimHacker connection, FeloniousMonk has helpfully supplied that . —] (]) 07:53, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
	Thanks for the . ] is useful in helping to find a way out of confusing semantic circularity by teaching us to relate propositions to objective perceptions of the physical world. (For any given proposition, imagine there are two universes absolutely identical except the proposition is true in one universe and false in the other - then ask the question "What objective experiment will tell me which universe I am in?" If there is no conceivable experiment that will answer that question, then the proposition has no objective meaning, although it may have motivational or emotional meaning and usefulness.) Boil the issue down to "what should I do next". That is in fact what the brain evolved to do - decide what to do next. Further I have found from experience that I can trust my brain more at deciding what I should do next than other questions such as what should someone else do next or what will I be doing next year. ] (]) 23:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
	:These are very interesting ideas. With respect to the first challenge, I would begin by gathering some evidence. I would canvass the inhabitants of the universe and ask them, "Is this the universe where Proposition X is believed to be true?" I would then employ the methods of reasoning which ] teaches his students to employ when dealing with the confusing lands of the ]. (There is an instantiation of this once-popular learning experience on ] in .) The question of "what should I do next" is also taken up in for the ], which is inspired by the ]. (Each indispensible member of the ] ]s one of the key questions. If that required interlocutor is absent when that question becomes timely and germane, the ] (]) stops cold. And we wouldn't want ''that'' to happen, now, would we?) So... Do we know what we want to do next? ₪ ;) —] (]) 07:53, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
	:#If you want me to read , you'll need to copy it here.
	:#I still don't know what you wish me to notice about ].
	:#Asking experts "Is this the universe where Proposition X is believed to be true?" makes sense; asking average people, less so.
	:#I am unclear as to the usefulness of the 36-question template.
	:#"Do we know what we want to do next?" I know what I want to do next.
	::] (]) 12:39, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
	::#I can't copy here for two reasons, WAS. The main reason is that it's a threaded conversation with others. Among them are ] And ]. If you are unprepared to join us in the conversation there, you are welcome to ask either of them to summarize it for you. They have my unqualified permission to reproduce, paraphrase, or summarize my portion of the conversation. The second reason is that it's UBB-coded, so that at best I could extract the source HTML. But I don't know how to reproduce HTML inside of Wiki.
	::#What I wish you to notice is that FeloniousMonk has cited some "evidence" from another web forum (at WorldCrossing.Com) in support of his thesis that purports to characterize me in a particular way. I am not sufficiently familiar with ] to know if that guideline applies, but I direct it to your attention, for your own independent peer review of a fellow Wikipedian.
	::#What intrigues me about Smullyan's remarkable method is that it works even when the average inhabitant is either known to be a knave, or suspected to be one. He offers a reliable way to arrive at the ground truth, even when relying on input from unreliable sources.
	::#The 36-question template is just a reminder to help ensure that no important question goes unasked.
	::#If you don't mind my asking, WAS, what do you want to do next?
	:::] (]) 14:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
	I said "That would appear to be the result of your mind (sub or in or non conscious) hiding something from you (conscious). What might that be?" You seemed not interested in talking about that so I then said "I guess you don't care to discuss your psychology. Most people don't, so I'll drop it." to which you replied "Oh! Is ''that'' you wanted me to talk about?!? My ''psychology?'' Sure. No problem. I talked about that at some length ." You say ''you'' talk about it, so I was not asking you to copy someone else's comments, and not even all your own, just those parts that you wish to be your next response in this conversation. You can copy them to a subpage, link it and let me worry about making sense of HTML dumped on a wiki page - I can edit the subpage and read it in its HTML formatting - I've done that before. Or you can simply continue this discussion by typing in new sentences regardless of whether they are represented elsewhere or not. The issue I wish to discuss has to do with behavior of yours that pisses people off and your recommendations for websites that do not seem to change in over 10 years even when the websites have different people, different social structures and different goals. You seem lacking in self-awareness about this; but I find you in general very self aware so I question the accuracy of my understanding.
	FeloniousMonk's page on you is a standard gathering of evidence well within "how we do things here". This sort of thing is needed in figuring out how to deal with people. Surely you would want Misplaced Pages to deal with people on the basis of openly gathered information rather than a star chamber. But also how we do things here is to "do no harm" as much as possible, so if you object to that page, he should take that into account. He could blank the page and access it (for editing or linking) thru its history or he could delete it so only admins can read it. If you make your concerns known to him thru email, I'm sure he will try to accommodate your concerns.
	Logic games based on constructs like "always tell the truth" and "always tell a lie" don't seem to me to say much about a reality in which truths are half truths that can serve as lies in some contexts and lies can serve to motivate the kind of behavior a person would make if he knew the whole truth in some contexts. If a blind man incorrectly thinks the white button rather than the black button will do what he wants and he asks me the color of the button am I lying if I answer accurately yet do not tell him he is mistaken in thinking what pushing it will do?
	What do I want to do next? On this page? In life off the net? Can you narrow down "with regard to what"?
	] (]) 17:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
	:If you can arrange for me to create or edit subpages in my user space here, I will construct or reprise some extended content along the lines you request. Otherwise, I am obliged to construct such documents off-wiki, in venues which provide the technical and functional affordances to support the construction of such pages.
	:Regarding so-called blind spots, I imagine we all have them. If I knew what mine were, they wouldn't be my blind spots, would they? But if you think you know what some of my blind spots are, perhaps you could spell them out in clear terms. However, I would ask that you support your original theories with evidence and reasoning, so that I may regard them with the appropriate scientific perspective.
	:If you wish to discuss dimensions of my behavior to which you or others take exception, I am more than willing to listen and to explore those issues with you, in the spirit of discovery learning and personal growth.
	:I have long recommended the adoption of ''best practices'' in any system that I've taken an interest in. For many years I was employed by the Bell System to devise best practices for the operation of the telephone network. I regret to say that since my departure from Bell Labs, some twenty years ago, I have about the direction of change.
	:My concerns about the biographical sketches that Filll and FeloniousMonk have crafted in their respective users spaces is that they have not yet been peer reviewed. If the editors of Misplaced Pages are going to conduct original research to craft biographical sketches, I would hope there is some kind of peer review process to see if their theories are properly supported by evidence and reasoning, in accordance with the protocols of the scientific method. I also understand that the English Misplaced Pages has additional internal criteria, such as ], ], ], ], and ]. For example, is at World Crossing a reliable source per ]? Is at World Crossing a reliable source per ]?
	:With regard to the blind man, what do you believe your ethical obligation is when crafting an answer to his question?
	:What do you want to do next regarding our dialogues here?
	:] (]) 07:20, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
	=== Arbitrary and Capricious Brokenness ===
	If you can not edit ] then you can edit this page twice - first to add the html and second to delete it - I can access the history version and read it.
	I think you have a blind spot in the area of '''anger'''. Stuff you do that causes it in others (yet tell yourself you are perplexed at their motivation). And occasions when you act motivated by it (yet tell yourself your motivation is otherwise). I am not motivated to prove this with extended evidence and reasoning. If I am right, you will eventually see that some of your perplexity can be accounted for by this. But perhaps I am wrong. Think about it.
	Please tell FeloniousMonk of your concerns. Perhaps he can label his researches as "original research" or "non peer reviewed" or some other label that will satisfy you. Our standards for article and talk and project space differ as the point of the spaces differs.
	With regard to the blind man, I believe the truth-telling ethical obligation when crafting an answer to his question is to answer him as I would want myself to be answered were I in his shoes. ( I added "truth-telling" as it occurred to me that other ethical obligations can conflict - suppose he is evil and wants to know which button destroys the world.)
	"''What do you want to do next regarding our dialogues here?''" Respond to each other constructively, politely, interestingly one response at a time so long as we are motivated to continue communicating. As you do not wish to be unbanned, the motivations may wane; yet as you are interesting to talk to, that will not necessarily become the case.
	] (]) 10:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
	:See the Blocking Template, below, ]
	:I have ] of ], pretty much like most people, WAS. However I don't tend to pump ] when angered, mainly because I am a . So instead of responding with ] or even ], I tend to respond elsewhere on . Do you have any thoughts about that, WAS?
	:I will take under advisement your suggestions (''e.g.'' "Please tell FeloniousMonk of your concerns.") regarding the most appropriate way to deal with FeloniousMonk, Filll, and their allied editors from the WikiClique on Intelligent Design, regarding their designs on me.
	:I am content to dialogue with you indefinitely, WAS, until such time as you deem it no longer constructive, productive, or pleasurable.
	:] (]) 14:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
	::The demonstration section contained what appears to be our current standard block template (boilerplate). I read it just fine.
	::Perhaps what I am calling "anger" you are calling "] of ]". But I get the feeling you are repressing knowledge of the degree to which it motivates behavior in yourself or are repressing knowledge of your behavior's emotional effects on others since you claim to be perplexed. ] is not a necessary part of the motivational consequences of what I am calling "anger". (I believe I am using the word in a standard way, but arguing over a definition of "anger" seems to me to be beside the point.)
	::It is not clear to me that I made "suggestions regarding the most appropriate way to deal with FeloniousMonk, Filll, and their allied editors from the WikiClique on Intelligent Design, regarding their designs on me."
	::] (]) 19:17, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::Do you find any irregularities in the ''content'' of the current blocking template, below? In your mind, is it a ''factually accurate'' statement of my current status and attendant reasons for that status, as ]?
	:::If you wish for me to become aware of the emotional effects my expression of my ] of ] is having on others, it would be helpful to me if they would candidly express the ''name'' of their affective emotional state in plain English. If there are any here who suffer from ], I would be happy to interview them to see if we could come to joint and mutually agreeable understanding of the proper dictionary name of their affective emotional state in the wake of my various actions seeking redress of grievance since last August 21st. Incidentally, a helpful text on appreciating the nuances of ] is an insightful book which I've had on my shelf for a quarter century: ''Anger: The Misunderstood Emotion'', by ]. Rather than "seeing red" (pumping ]), I tend to clench my teeth, instead. That's my classic ] to a nagging ].
	:::—] (]) 06:29, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::The blocking template below is a typical example of how we bite newbies in spite of our rule not to. We simply have no good way to deal with "anyone can edit". Think of it like a talking dog. The amazing thing is that we can roughly live up to "anyone can edit" at all - asking us to do it well is like insisting that a talking dog speak perfect English. Show me another site that is doing this better.
	::::While it would be helpful to you if others would candidly express the ''name'' of their affective emotional state in plain English, people almost never act that way, and I seriously doubt that people are going to begin acting that way. Instead people usually ''express'' their emotions rather than ''name'' them. Different people respond to anger in different ways. Giano has expressed how he has "cold anger". You say you clench your teeth. I tend towards ]. ] (]) 09:11, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::The ] aspect of my ''entrée'' into the socio-political dynamics of the English Misplaced Pages led me to on the ] of participants in this ].
	:::::It occurs to me that the "anyone can edit" concept may have been unwise. seems to have a more traditional model of who is vetted and qualified to construct articles for an online encyclopedia.
	:::::I am also intrigued by the phenomena of ] and ] in these dynamics. Is it fair to posit that there are any number of that are routinely being reinstantiated or reified in the laps of unsuspecting newcomers, to see if the antagonized newcomers perchance enflesh a more rational, professional, or efficacious solution to the aforementioned than the initiating protagonists have ever witnessed in these pages before? —] (]) 12:32, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::::Your last sentence does not parse for me. ] (]) 21:26, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::Sorry. That sentence does need some word-smithing, doesn't it? Perhaps the dynamic is best illustrated by a . —] (]) 22:05, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
	(<---) Better, I guess, but I'm still not understanding.
	Is it fair to posit (How could it be unfair? Perhaps you refer to fairly representing the evidence rather than fair in terms of morality?) that there are any number (Meaning "many" I take it as opposed to a more literal interpretation.) of (links to "drama"; which is short hand around here for superficial lolz activity. I take it you are referring to the interplay of psychologies in a Greek-tragedy kind of way.) that are routinely (meaning too often or meaning as a rule?) being reinstantiated or reified in the laps (I don't get this at all. "in the laps" throws me.) of unsuspecting newcomers (meaning like you), to see (for the ''purpose''?) if the antagonized newcomers (meaning like you) perchance (really do you mean this word here? aren't you just being poetic with this word? it conflicts with the rest of the sentence which implies deliberate, hence it confuses rather than functions poetically) enflesh (as in to create an actual thing) a more rational, professional, or efficacious solution (I lost you here completely. What are you talking about? whose solution to what is what?) to the aforementioned than the initiating protagonists (initiated what? who is who? both sides see the other as initiating so who this is depends on the eyes this is seen though and that is not made clear in this omniscient-view narrative.) have ever (''ever''; really '''ever'''?) witnessed in these pages (meaning the English language wikipedia) before?
	] (]) 00:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
	:By ''fair'' I meant an objectively accurate portrait. I am using the term ''drama'' in the context of an analytical model of a dramatic structure involving two or more dramatic characters. The dramatic story line need not be a classical Greek tragedy, such as a hero-goat story, although that's certainly a familiar kind of story. I was using 'lap' as in "Fred dropped an unanticipated problem in my lap." ''Perchance'' simply means there is some unknown probability of anyone discovering a functional solution to the problem Fred dropped in the would-be problem-solver's lap. ''Enflesh'' means to enact or perform the presumptive solution that Fred was seeking. The notion is that Fred would be gratified if someone &mdash; ''anyone'' &mdash; acted back a usable solution to the burning issue that long has haunted dear old Fred. —] (]) 01:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
	===Current Blocking Template===
	<div style="margin:1em; padding:5px; border:3px #666 double;"><div style="width:100%; margin:auto; text-align:center;"><div style="font-size:140%;"><b>You are currently unable to edit pages on Misplaced Pages.</div></b>
	<p><i><b>You can still read pages</b>, but cannot edit, change, or create them.</i>
	</p>
	</div>
	<div style="margin:auto; width:70%;">
	<div style="text-align:justify;">
	<p>Editing from Moulton (your account, ], or IP address range) has been disabled by <tt>]</tt> for the following reason(s):<br clear="all"></p>
	<div style="margin:1em; padding:5px; border:3px #666 double;">]: Restoring community ban, arbcom rejected reopening case. no grounds for undertow to reduce ban duration</div>
	<p>This block has been set to expire: <b>indefinite</b>.
	</br></br>
	</p><p>Even if blocked, you will <i>usually</i> still be able to edit your ] and contact other editors and administrators by email.</p>
	</div>
	</div>
	</div>
	</div>
	== FYI ==
	At ] I said "I see no benefit in concluding this without a clear statement that Moulton does or does not wish to be unblocked and if he wishes to be unblocked a clear statement that he will or will not '''try''' to abide by "how things are done around here". He is blocked. It is up to him to make his intentions clear. Until then, we don't need to make any choices for change." I would be more than happy to place there any response you wish me to place there. ] (]) 04:23, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
	:I have not requested to be unblocked. The community's ] of the circumstances of last year (and the ) may or may not lead the participants of the English Misplaced Pages to conclusively determine if the original handling (and subsequent ]) of my case was normative or not. If the Misplaced Pages community at large determines it was all perfectly normative, then that will satisfy me and I will have no further interest in participating in the English Misplaced Pages community, going forward. So far, the ] on that issue appears to be mixed, unsettled, and undecided. You may find a clear statement of ] upthread as well. —] (]) 06:41, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
	::Is it "normative" for a politician to be heckled at a speech? In civil society there are freedoms of speech and other abilities allowed that while not recommended and even discouraged are none-the-less not treated as crimes. Misplaced Pages is close to anarchy. I'm guessing such an unruly place is not to your taste. ] (]) 09:56, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::I suppose it depends on the prevailing political culture. But I do not frequent political cultures very often. Rather I frequent academic and scientific cultures, where hectoring and Narcissistic wounding are not a featured aspect of the culture. —] (])
	::::Misplaced Pages is not at all like a hall at a university where participants engage in academic and scientific discussions. Not at all. It is, instead, more like Central Park in NY NY. Over here to the left there is hectoring and Narcissistic wounding. Under the bridge in front of us there was a mugging (bullying). As we walk along you can hear the group of students behind us argue philosophy. On the park bench there is a 13 year old enjoying his game-boy. But imagine the park is virtual and designated as a place to prepare content that will in the end be shaped into an encyclopedia (but this virtual encyclopedia sandbox central park is being used as if it were the finished encyclopedia because there is nothing else remotely as useful and available), so there is no need for police as such, just a need for volunteer administrators to reset your avatar if something happens. Now imagine your avatar is mugged. You are asked, "do you wish to have your avatar reset? You say "Mu." ] (]) 18:54, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::::Is it your thesis that my avatar in this MMPONWMG was ''mugged''? —] (]) 06:28, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::::Your avatar was murdered by a squad of cops. But no worries mate, just ask to be resurrected. We do it all the time. It's all part of the fun. I was indef blocked by an arbcom member (Fred) at one point. Didn't last more than a few hours though. ] (]) 08:41, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::The concept of requesting the ''Keystone crucifiers'' to perform the act of resurrection seems quaintly at odds with the standard script for that popular drama. I wonder what would of that notion? I daresay she would simply gambol in, , gambol out, and let it go at that. —] (]) 22:56, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::Or, to put it another way, I answer a Central Park mugging with a ''Gezunta'' hugging. ] (]) 11:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::::Or perhaps we can visualize your avatar being evicted from this virtual central park by volunteer grounds keepers who claim you vandalized a park statue's plaque, while you claim you were removing graffiti written by the volunteer grounds keepers. Now you are picketing outside the park on Review street, refusing to come back in because you don't trust the ground keepers' internal review committee. ] (]) 21:21, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::I have a more to suggest as an inspirational park statue. —] (]) 22:56, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::::::Being red-green color blind limits my appreciation of such art. ] (]) 00:15, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::::In ''Le Saut'', the horse closest to the viewer is green with a red mane and tail. The middlemost horse is blue with a blue mane and brownish tail. The third horse is red with a red mane; its tail cannot be seen. The sun is orange and the left background panel is bronze. —] (]) 00:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
	(<---)What is the artistic significance (emotional impact/referencial associations) of these color choices as opposed to other possible choices? ] (]) 01:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
	:I don't know. The of Azoulay's work typically focus on his idiosyncratic use of flowing lines, rather than his use of colors. —] (]) 01:23, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
	::The flowing lines in that image don't do anything for me. I do appreciate ] and the ] though. I think nature creates better art than humans; or more accurately, I believe that our artistic sensibilities are based on psychological processes based on processing reality-based sensory input. LSD experiments in the 60s by psychologists were informative concerning those processes.] (]) 01:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::I'm going to guess that ] doesn't move you either. has ], similar to the dominant feature of Azoulay's style. If you like Peter Max, I'm going to guess you would like this of ]. —] (]) 04:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::: I like the ''story'' of Vincent van Gogh; but his work and the work of great artists like ] and ] are not generally to my taste; although there are some specific works of art that they have created that do move me. I do not mistake ''my'' taste for ''right'' taste; and I object to experts that do. I do not have flash enabled on my computer. I use dial-up, and I have decided flash isn't worth my time. I plan to upgrade in the next couple of years in hardware, software and communications but I have yet to make a choice. I'm not seeing, so far, something that is what I want. '''Everything seems broken by design.''' Linux and Myth TV look promising. If they don't pan out; I'll probably buy something from Apple. ] (]) 07:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::Wow. Your rig is even more antiquated than mine. All my gear is salvaged from the high-tech cast-off junk pile. Most of it is at least ten years old. But I do have Verizon DSL. I use Ubuntu Linux and Macintosh OS X. I have Windows XP and Windows 2000 in reserve for those rare occasions when it's the only OS for selected applications.
	:::::Regarding tastes in art and music, I will offer a speculative theory (as I am often wont to do). Melancholy and contemplative artists (like , Vincent van Gogh, Pablo Picasso, and Guillame Azoulay) would be characteristically low in the neuropeptide known as ]. Artists like Peter Max, with their hallucinogenic and psychedelic styles would be characteristically higher in their ] levels. Excessively can make a person see visual hallucinations, hear auditory hallucinations, and even . Artists are wont to create artistic renderings of what's going on inside their heads. As a child, when I was running a fever, my dreams were like a time-lapse movie of the creation of a ] painting, with accompanying crescendo of an audio cacophony. Since (like ]) I am a , I have uncharacteristically low levels of Dopamine; hence I tend toward the melancholy, and contemplative side of the Dopamine Axis.
	:::::If things seem "broken by design" it may be that their lack of functionality arises because they were not designed by qualified system engineers who are adept at . See ]'s 1998 book on ''The Design of Everyday Things'', his 2004 book on '']'' and his newest book, ''''.
	:::::] (]) 11:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
	(<---)There is no doubt in my mind why Microsoft products seem broken by design. They are. On purpose. When founders Bill Gates and Paul Allen first started putting out software to sell, Paul wanted to include a lot of stuff that he knew the user was going to want and need, but Bill said no and they had a yelling match that was overheard by others. Bill insisted that they only include what the users knew they wanted and save what they would soon learn they needed for an upgrade to sell them them; and the upgrade would likewise deliberately not have things that the user would need but not know they needed until after they bought the upgrade. Bill is a success as a businessman and a failure as a human being. ] (]) 18:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
	:The irony is that I frequently get zinged for intentionally including content that I can reasonably anticipate a consumer will soon be wanting, shortly after consuming the appetizer and main course. But for reasons unbeknownst to me, the delivery agent routinely strips out the happy endings, leaving the hapless customer hungry for more. —] (]) 20:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
	::That is not relevant unless the customer in your case typically can be expected to not anticipate that they will be wanting what you anticipate they will want. People know ahead of time about deserts. People do not know ahead of time about software utility interfaces or specific functionalities of software packages. It is like buying a car and finding out after you bought it that it lacks spark plugs. And requires special patented spark plugs that cost 10% of a new car. It is a deliberate rip off. It is an abuse of monopoly. That they have been convicted of. But the Bush administration has refused to administer the law as written by congress. ] (]) 21:04, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::Since my business is science education, it's reasonable to model the consumer as someone who does not yet appreciate what interesting new questions will arise as soon as she has digested the answer to today's question. Authors of stories and textbooks typically supply information in the nominal order in which the typical learner constructs it. Assembling jigsaw puzzles would be a lot easier if loose pieces arrived in your field of view just about the time there arises a place to put them. To the extent that I have a slight head start on seeing the big picture, I tend to make subtle references to what's coming into view on the horizon, just a little ahead of when most pedestrian students would be ready for it. It's like Tetris, where they give you a little preview of what's coming next. —] (]) 21:52, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::If someone paid you to teach them a subject to help them with a specific task, would you consider it ethical to teach them lots of information about the topic but to deliberately withhold key information they needed to deal with the specific task - and require a second payment for an advanced course that would then cover most but not all of that task specific information - and then to require a third payment for ''another'' course for what was left out on purpose of that course? I don't think so. That's the morality of Microsoft and it stinks. ] (]) 05:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::Of course not. Requiring a supplementary fee would be unethical. But when I coach or mentor via the Socratic Method, I ''do'' intentionally withhold key information — namely the next piece of the puzzle I want them to discover for themselves. The "payment" that I ''do'' require is that they pay ''attention''. If they aren't paying attention when I am intentionally withholding the next key piece of information, they generally fail to figure it out, and the ] comes to a screeching halt. —] (]) 05:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
	== Hello again ==
	You may remember yourself to me some months ago. Your RfC was in many ways similar to . At the time, I could only give your case a cursory glance, but I've recently been very interested (and amused, etc.) to delve deeper into the expansive and still-growing record. In addition to a physical trait we may share with one Sandy, we seem to share a remarkably similar experience here. I admire your patience and persistence, respect the professional level of civility you maintain, and appreciate your occasional injections of humor ("neener," e.g., was a gem). Know that I continue to observe your case with great interest. Cheers and regards, ] (]) 18:42, 2 June 2008 (UTC) <small>(<-- ducks and covers)</small>
	:Greetings, Gnixon, and welcome to Moulton's '']''. Is it indeed possible that you, ], and I are all ? If so, that might explain our similar demeanor in these similar cases. Being a scientist and a science educator, I am obliged not only to ''have'' patience and perseverance, but to ''demonstrate'' that trait for the benefit of any budding young scientists who might look to me as a role model. I am looking forward to getting to know you and Sandy better, and discovering how we may best collaborate in pursuit of common goals. —] (]) 19:29, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
	::My grin is growing greater as the CTP proceeds. ] (]) 16:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::OK, so I looked up ] and the closest thing I could come to anything even remotely relevant to your interests was '''Center for Theoretical Physics''' of which there are two or three, including one at and one at ]. Somehow I have the odd feeling that I'm probably looking at the wrong ] here. —] (]) 14:09, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::L->T; see discussion above. I was hoping to fly under the casual radar, as with the exposed "trait"/"Sandy" reference. Mast seems to be nudging things toward a legitimate debate. ] (]) 16:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::I'm afraid you're flying under my radar, too. So, now I think you might be talking about ] (CTP) or ] and/or the role of ] (cutting things off) or ]s (stringing things out), in the context of high-energy dialogues. Am I getting close? Or am I a million light-years away? —] (]) 22:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::::L="learning" became T. Sorry for the goose chase. :) ] (]) 01:07, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::Ah, ]. Got it. Finally. (Whew.) :) —] (]) 07:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
	== ==
	Judge Paul Mahoney, the presiding judge in the East Boston Municipal Court where Star Simpson's case was continued month after month for nine months, has finally dismissed the felony charges and called for an apology.
	And well he should.
	I, for one, am very sorry.
	I'm sorry the well paid and highly trained security staff at Logan Airport were unable to distinguish a simple ] circuit from a nuclear detonator. And I'm sorry the officials of the ] saw fit to spend nine months and Guvnor knows how much of the taxpayer's money on a criminal case that they must have known from the outset could not have gone forward on the basis of the "hoax" statute or the evidence.
	is 20 years old. She was 13 years old and living in Hawaii when 9/11 occurred. When I was 13 years old and living in Omaha, I barely knew anything about what was going on in Boston, a thousand miles away from Nebraska.
	But more to the point, it was 109 years before Star Simpson was even born that ] wired up the very first electric light bulb circuit — an electric power source, a piece of wire, and a light bulb. Today, that ubiquitous light bulb circuit can be found in your car ], in your table lamp, in your ], ], in your children's , and embedded in colorful drinks served at the ].
	I find it utterly astonishing that highly trained and highly paid security officials at Logan Airport are evidently unfamiliar with this ubiquitous circuit that has been part of American culture for 129 years, and unable to recognize it upon close inspection.
	And I am chagrined that the Prosecutor in this case — Suffolk County District Attorney Daniel Conley — honestly believed for nine long and aggravating months that he could prove in a Court of Law that Star Simpson intended to fool anyone (least of all Major Scott Pare of the State Police) with such a commonplace piece of everyday technology as a simple flashlight circuit with a dime-store ] transistor radio battery and nine ] arranged in an ] design to symbolize Star's name.
	When I was a 20-year old undergraduate in Electrical Engineering at the University of Nebraska, I did what every other classmate of mine did. I wired up a light bulb circuit and stuck it inside a red clip-on bow tie to wear during Engineer's Week. That's how we greeted the visitors who came to see our projects. And that was in 1965. People laughed. They didn't panic and summon the Nebraska State Police to pull out semi-automatic '']'' and Prosecutorial ''Kiboshnikovs''.
	As a science educator, I am sorry to say we have failed miserably to educate the lay public, the police, and responsible public officials in the rudiments of the simple electric light bulb circuit — a battery, a piece of wire, and a light bulb.
	To awe-struck officials like District Attorney Daniel Conley, Major Scott Pare of the State Police, and MassPort spokesman Phil Orlandella, a genius of the caliber of ] must have been as a God to them, producing inconceivable ] of artificial light the likes of which mere public officials can neither imagine nor shrug off as ''no big thang'' in this day and age.
	Remind me not to carry an unconcealed ] or an ] when picking up friends at ]. I wouldn't want to give them a ].
	(]) 09:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
	:Half the world has a double digit IQ. What do you expect? I remember a case where a uniformed policemen asked a man to hand over what looked like ]; the man put up a fight; the policeman was about to really let him have it when a bystander yelled "He's blind!" The policeman had assumed his uniform was enough identification, but the blind man with the collapsible cane thought he was being mugged. ] (]) 11:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
	::My answer to a is a ''Genzunta'' hugging. — (]) 14:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::With all due respect, please tone down the degree to which you're using Misplaced Pages as a mirror and feeder site for your blog. ''']'''&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 20:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::Is there a published guideline about that? —] (]) 20:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
	*] Please note this is policy not guideline. ]<sup>]</sup> 20:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
	:{{quotation|'''Discussion forums.''' Please try to stay on the task of creating an encyclopedia. ], and should resolve problems with articles on the relevant talk pages, but please do not take discussion into articles.}}
	:Is the present discussion with ] not a Misplaced Pages-related topic? —] (]) 21:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
	::Blogging ''about'' wikipedia is not what wikipedia is for either. Misplaced Pages talk space is supposed to be used to make wikipedia better. A question for any specific use of a wikipedia page, to ask yourself is: would people contributing money to WikiMedia approve of the use of the servers and internet access that they paid for, for this use of this wikipedia page. We got rid of a lot of "fun" type pages here at wikipedia (we even had go games being played by editors on a wikipedia page at one point). We cracked down on all that as we became more popular - and so did not need the candy to attract helpers - and more professional. ] (]) 00:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
	::MastCell is 100% correct in his understanding of policy about use of user pages (content policies) and interaction with others (behavior policies) when he asked you to "''please tone down the degree to which you're using Misplaced Pages as a mirror and feeder site for your blog.''" If this had gone on much further, I would have done that myself. Leeway is given to some degree to newbies we wish to encourage to become productive editors and that is my hope for you. If in the end you decide not to even care to ask to be unblocked, eventually this page should also be blocked as we are not a blog site. But we seem to be making progress. Aren't we? Oh, also, once someone becomes an established editor; they are given leeway in proportion to their perceived contributions (we don't do due process, we don't do justice, we don't do revenge - we make pragmatic choices on what we think will help in creating a useful encyclopedia). We don't wish to drive away people who are helping. Also, thank you KillerChihuahua, for your help in answering Moulton's question. ] (]) 00:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::Do we do ''ethics''? When the Commonwealth of Massachusetts concludes it erred, what obligation does Wikimedia have to update the story, so that the worldwide consumers of these stories are not left with a false impression? —] (]) 00:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::Very interesting question. As it turns out, the original concept did not include ethics other than 1:copy-left and 2:all human knowledge and 3:to all mankind which was based on 1:a libertarian concept of freedom 2:the idea that more knowledge is always better and the solution to wrong points of view is more information 3:nondiscrimination between humans.
	::::BLP was our first major additional ethical vision added to that and it took a while to get a majority on board with that (there are still some holdouts among those who have been here the longest).
	::::You are arguing for a more comprehensive vision of ethical obligation. Maybe you are right. Maybe you are wrong. It is a political process to influence opinion and to change policy. Your involvement is seen as not backed by practical experience in actually making the content better. May I recommend you gain experience rather than argue from a purely theoretical point of view? ] (]) 00:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::I agree that it's an interesting question, and one that I believe deserves some serious reflection.
	:::::Over on Misplaced Pages Review, I watched with more than a little interest as Doc Glasgow made a valiant effort to raise the BLP issue to the attention of the community at large. And my spirits frankly fell when he threw in the towel.
	:::::It's not for me to say if my view is right or wrong. I don't even know that those two labels are particularly meaningful. I'm interested in evovolving from current practices to ever better practices, enroute to an elusive and asymptotic goal of ]. Along that route, I can see prior practices and future practices, but I wouldn't want to have to label any of them as right or wrong in some absolute sense.
	:::::Being an ], I know how to do ''scientific process''. I don't have the first clue how Earthlings do political process (and not just in the English Misplaced Pages, but pretty much anywhere on this curious planet).
	:::::While I have a pretty good idea of what better content would look like to an objective observer, I frankly have no idea how to ''make'' the content better. The notion of making other (competing) editors do anything against their will is abhorrent to the very quick of my bones. Nor do I have the first clue how to empower and enable others to ''see'' a better way.
	:::::If people ''wish'' to craft a better way, I have some ideas that may be of interest.
	:::::But as Professor Griffin points out, only the elite are permitted to enter the forest.
	:::::And I trust you ''do'' know Professor Griffin's memorable definition of "elite".
	:::::] (]) 01:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::::"''And I trust you do know Professor Griffin's memorable definition of "elite".''" Nope. Not a clue. ] (]) 02:22, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
	====]'s Clues====
	Upthread, WAS, you expressed some appreciation for my introduction into these conversations, links to one or two Socratic dialogues by Philosopher/Logician ]. Since you appreciate his presentation of ], permit me to introduce you to another of his specialties, ], which you will find in a remarkable book entitled, '']''...
	{{quotation|<H3>]</H3>''']''' is a gentle and humorous introduction to ] and the associated ], built on an elaborate ornithological ].
	<P>
	Smullyan's exposition takes the form of an imaginative account of an intrepid adventurer (Inspector Craig) going deep into a forest and discovering the unusual species of ornithological creatures to be found there. Each species of bird in Smullyan's imaginative forest represents a particular kind of ] (known technically as a ]) appearing in the conventional treatment of ]. Each bird has a distinctive call, which it sings in response to the call of another bird. Hence an initial call by certain ''initiator birds'' gives rise to a ] sequence of calls by a succession of birds.
	<P>
	Deep inside the forest dwells the fabled and fabulous ], which echoes back the bird calls it hears. The ] acts like a ], deep inside the forest. When the cascading sequence of bird calls bounces off the ], an ] cascade wends its way back to the thinner edges of the forest. The resulting cascade of calls and responses analogizes insightfully to ] of ]. With this powerful ] in hand, one can explore advanced topics in the mathematical theory of computability, such as ] and ].
	<P>
	For many students, this ] approach to ] (which is functionally equivalent to the considerably more daunting ]) is a branch of ] having the expressive power of ], but graced with deeply insightful and powerful connections to fundamental questions of ] and ].}}
	At one point in the arboreal adventure, when the forest is getting especially dark and deep, our intrepid explorer comes to a sentinel guarding the entrance to the .
	{{quotation|<center><u>THE MASTER FOREST</u><BR>ONLY THE ELITE ARE ALLOWED TO ENTER!</center>}}
	And there, on of '']'', you will discover that you really did have a ] after all.
	] (]) 10:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
	===The Relevance to Misplaced Pages and Wikimedia===
	Star Simpson was on September 21, 2007. On that same day a BLP on Star Simpon was created here on the English Misplaced Pages. It immediately became nominated as an ]. The ] discussion ran for a week. There was also a parallel article on the ''event'' at Logan Airport, "Boston Logan Airport Fake Bomb Incident", which was also was nominated as an ]. The ] discussion ran concurrently with the one on the Star Simpson BLP, and both AFD's ended together on September 29th with final decisions to delete.
	A ''nearly comprehensive'' news article on WikiNews — — was the sole surviving WikiMedia article of the three. It occurs to me that the project history demonstrates that this topic is relevant to Misplaced Pages, if for no other reason than the Commonwealth of Massachusetts vacated its felony charges against Star Simpson as unsupported by the forensic evidence as applied to the invoked by the District Attorney. The State could not possibly prove ''intent'', because to do so would have required them to prove an undeniable and trivially demonstrated falsehood in a public court of law. And the evidence that Ms. Simpson's so-called "hoax device" fooled no one can be found in the second photograph of the on the arrest, published in the ''Boston Globe'' just a few hours after she was arrested by a squadron of Massachusetts State Police brandishing machine guns.
	And now for a Moultonic News Quiz: Can you find the middle finger of Scott Pare's right hand in that above cited story? Is that ''evidence'' of anything ''relevant and germane'' to the story? Support your analysis with coherent and defensible reasoning.
	] (]) 00:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
	:Moulton, your talk page in an inappropriate place for these concerns. Would you like to be unblocked for the purpose of making relevant comments on talk and project (like articles for deletion) pages? ] (]) 01:09, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
	::I wish for Wikipedians to do what they think is best. —] (]) 01:28, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
	], calling for an update. —] (]) 00:10, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	:Choice A) tell other people how to spend their volunteer time. Choice B} create an updated article and place a link at the old article to the update article. Which choice is more helpful? Which choice is less annoying? Which choice is less narcissistic? Wikinews is very very short of manpower. They need your help. Choose B. (''Now'' look who is telling someone how to spend their free time! Ha!) ] (]) 01:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	::Actually, WAS, things work a little differently over at WikiNews, and I've left a note on Moulton's ] discussing his comment. (About half of what you've said is valid, though, especially the bit about needing more 'newsies.) ]<small>(])</small> 01:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::I see nothing in the conversation at ] that justifies your comment that only half of what I said is valid. Chris Mann (you?) says "''If you want an article written, you can write it yourself, or request it" and "You may consider putting a <nowiki>{{editprotected}}</nowiki> request on the talk page of the article, and an admin might add a little "update" box" which is a reiteration of Choice B above. ] (]) 04:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::The problem with ''me'' writing the updated article, WAS, is that I'm not an objective, disinterested reporter in this story. I was on the defense team, working with Star's lawyer, and I was slated to be an expert witness on the fundamentals of an . I've also extensively on this case. So while I might plausibly be invited to write an Op-Ed piece for WikiNews, it would not be for me to also write the objective news story. —] (]) 01:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::As you state at ] "''While I could conceivably draft a nominally objective story, it would have to be vetted by an impartial editor''" which is my Choice B. I at no time imagined you would be able to create a finished wiki-news article without some kind of review process. So go for it. Write it up and ask the wiki-news community for help. Her current situation is news, and the details are background for that news. What's the latest on her community service? What are commentators saying right now about how unfairly she was treated? What is going on right now at airports around the country with regard to panicked ignorant security personnel? There is a story here to be told. So tell it. ] (]) 04:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::The first thing that would have to occur is for an impartial editor to materialize and consent to play that role. Otherwise, my draft article would just languish without review. In the past, when an editor invited me to prepare an article, and then dropped the ball on reviewing it, I just , and let it go at that. —] (]) 10:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::: If you are motivated, try asking for assistance at ]. ] (]) 21:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::Sounds like a viable plan. Thanks for the pointer. —] (]) 22:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::Update 1: ]. ] (]) 11:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::Update 2: Does anyone understand the reference to ]?
	::::By the way, Wiki-news treats conflict of interest and original research different than the English language Misplaced Pages does. David Shankbone wrote a wiki-news article about his travel to Israel and interview with a politician there. That would never have been allowed at Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 04:10, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::I vaguely recall that Shankbone's article drew some at Misplaced Pages Review, on the grounds that it departed from normative journalistic practices. —] (]) 10:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::::WR would criticize ] for being deadly ]. While Misplaced Pages has occasional inaccuracies, WR makes a practice of it. WR is useful for its occasional investigative revelation of a fixable problem at wikipedia, but most often they go on and on with claims backed by no evidence based on lack of information (ignorance) and useless accurate claims that wikipedia is far from perfect (as if anything ever is). Shankbone's article was what it was, and to the best of my knowledge did not misrepresent itself. Amateur reporter from volunteer news website goes to Israel, paid for by Israel, and conducts interview(s), takes pictures, publishes on that website. Shankbone had the impression that self serving claims made by the people he talked could be placed in wikipedia articles, but we said no because wiki-news does not have proper processes in place to establish reliability and accuracy (just as wikipedia itself does not) and the obvious self serving nature of the claims. In the end links to the wikinews article were added, which is appropriate. ] (]) 21:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::Uffda! —] (]) 13:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::Suggestion: Videotape you interviewing some of the key people involved. But first talk to the wiki-news people to be sure you do it in a way they will accept. David use a recording as the evidence/source for his claims; I don't see why you can't also if you try hard enough to work with the volunteers there to find a solution. ] (]) 04:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::1) I don't own any videotape equipment, 2) the key people involved include Major Scott Pare of the Massachusetts State Police, Suffolk County District Attorney Daniel Conley, and East Boston Municipal Judge Paul Mahoney. The likelihood of any of them giving me the time of day is nil to nonexistent, as I have already an unflattering technical analysis of their roles, a copy of which ] as well. —] (]) 10:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::::I had in mind using a borrowed phone with camera or a three way phone call with wikinews recording on the third line or some cheap means like that. I had in mind you talking to the defence team you say you were a part of. ] (]) 21:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::Oh. We could just use Skype. I have a webcam. The other person who I know was slated to testify was ]. I don't know who else the lawyers had on tap to testify. They might have intended to call Major Scott Pare (to explain what he was doing with the of his right hand in that remarkable ''Globe'' photo). —] (]) 22:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	:A very belated response to WAS as to how his comment was only half correct - the suggestion that Moulton create a new article and add an update link to his old one, but the fact that Wikinews has a greater sense of immediacy (as opposed to WP's "There is no deadline") means that an article written now would likely get deleted for lack of timeliness. (And yes, ] is me, as pointed out on the user page there.) ]<small>(])</small> 01:10, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	::What I've written is part Op-Ed, part news analysis (or media analysis). —] (]) 01:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	== On Divisiveness ==
	In the ongoing ], ] has presented ] to support his thesis that "FeloniousMonk has promoted a toxic, divisive mindset." Dan identifies half a dozen recurring themes, including 1) tribalism and favoritism, 2) bullying, intimidation, and coercion, 3) hypocrisy and double standards, 4) character assassination, and 5) ''faux'' science.
	In the now-dismissed which Ryan Postlethwaite filed a week and a half ago, he observed that "there’s a huge divide in the community about what the best course of action is."
	I went back to the original RfC that ] and ] prepared against me back in August/September of last year, and I also went back to the more recent filings of ] and ] to see if their complaints against me included the charge of ].
	I was unable to find any instance of the term ''divisive'' as being applied to me. Rather the editors of the WikiClique on Intelligent Design have uniformly used the term ], instead. The closest I could come to finding any suggestion of ] was that I was holding out against the existing ] of the ID Clique. But in no way did I divide them, as they remained steadfastly united in their view, and vigorously opposed to my countervailing opinion.
	And yet I nevertheless ''do'' consider myself a ''Divisive Character'' in the following sense:
	Being a scientist, I am interested in separating scientifically grounded theories (as supported by solid evidence and sound reasoning) from myths, misconceptions, flights of fancy, and delusional beliefs unsupported by scientific evidence or rigorous analytical reasoning.
	The divide in the community that Ryan Postlethwaite cited in his abortive is precisely the kind of divide I would have expected to observe when a community is on the ] threshold of discarding a previously held popular misconception in favor of a better or more accurate scientific theory or model.
	Historically, there are some famous scientists who instigated such divides. Among the better known examples are Galileo and Darwin, who planted the scientific seeds to overthrow deeply held but woefully unscientific cultural beliefs.
	The science that I undertake is hardly of the gravity (pun ''maybe'' intended) of historical figures like Galileo, but the community dynamics manifestly do appear to bear a remarkable parallel to the kind of ] to which Galileo was lamentably subjected.
	I would prefer to be characterized as ''divisive'' rather than ''disruptive'' on the grounds that I am intentionally endeavoring to divide unpopular scientific points of view from popular fiction and hoary delusional beliefs (with an unabashed view toward promoting the former and demoting, dismissing, and discarding the latter).
	] (]) 16:31, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
	:Your gloss of the situation is rather egosyntonic, even without the gratuitous application of the Galileo gambit <small>(, while we're using this page to drive up blog traffic)</small>. Why do you believe that the divide Ryan referenced portends progress? Nearly every disastrous action undertaken by a community is also preceded by a divide. What is the scientifically grounded rationale for your stated belief that this divide resembles that preceding a ''positive'' development? ''']'''&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 20:13, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
	::{{quotation|''']'''<P>] is a medical term referring to behaviors, values, feelings, which are in harmony with or acceptable to the needs and goals of the ], or consistent with one's ideal ]. It is studied in detail in ]. Many ] are considered ] and are therefore nearly impossible to treat.<P>It is the opposite of ]. ] is considered to be an ] disorder, as the thoughts and compulsions experienced or expressed are not consistent with the individual's self-perception.}}
	::Do you have a theory you would like to put forward here, to supplement the ] offered so far in this epic by KillerChihuahua, Filll, and FeloniousMonk?
	::As to whether or not the community will make any progress moving from the present state of disharmony to an imaginable state of harmony on the issues that divide the community, I have no prediction in that regard, as I lack a reliable model of the community dynamics, going forward. There have also been divides that resulted in major wars. The governing factor, near as I can tell, is whether those in disagreement have the temperament of scientists or the temperament of politicians.
	::If the community is dominated by those of a political temperament (''Homo Politicus''), then I would predict a disastrous outcome. If the community is dominated by those of a scientific temperament (''Homo Scientificus''), then I would anticipate a more sanguine outcome. To the extent that ''Homo Politicus'' is on the loose, I would also expect a by ''Homo Ludens''...
	::{{quotation|''To the tune of "Funeral March of the Marionettess" by Gounod...''<P>&nbsp; &nbsp; Homo Ludens is on the loose!<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Homo Ludens escaped the noose!<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; He's on a spree!<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; What can this be?<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; Maybe he's cooked his goose.}}
	::] (]) 21:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::Ah. It would appear that our article on ] requires improvement. No, I don't have anything as elaborate as a theory of mind. I have an observation, echoed by many others, that your modus operandi is directly hindering your ability to implement your stated objectives, and that you either choose not to acknowledge this elephant in the room or choose to spin it in a self-aggrandizing fashion, as in this thread.<p>I don't mean to lecture someone with your experience in education, but if the Socratic Method is to be effective, the teacher needs to have earned a certain baseline level of respect and deference from the audience. They have to reasonably believe that the payoff, in terms of knowledge or understanding, is worth the investment. If the audience is not convinced that the teacher has anything particularly worthwhile to impart, then repetitive rounds of Socratic questioning simply seem condescending and irritating.<p>In the real world, I would suppose that audiences are willing to grant you this deference and respect somewhat by default, because of your background, accomplishments, and credentials as an educator. However, those don't translate onto Misplaced Pages. That's just the nature of the beast at present. In real life, people are willing to learn from me on certain topics because of my background and credentials, but that carries no weight here. If I want to implement what I consider improvements here, I have to convince people by persuasive argument alone, without relying on the authority conferred by past education or accomplishments. I find that to be a particularly challenging and invigorating, if occasionally maddening, aspect of Misplaced Pages.<p>Wikipedians tend to be suspicious of people who have grandiose theoretical ideas about how-it-oughta-be but lack practical experience here, because the ethos of this project is profoundly pragmatic. Put another way, Misplaced Pages's operations are like those of a practical craft or trade (plumbing, aviation, medicine), rather than those of an abstract scientific discipline. People learn, and are taught, through a process of role-modeling, apprenticeship, and experience, not by a lecturer at a blackboard nor by a seminar leader, however skilled in the Socratic method. The only way to teach, and to change practice here, is by modeling the behavior which you'd like to see more of. Does this mean that ''Homo politicus'' is a more successful paradigm than ''Homo scientificus'' on Misplaced Pages? Perhaps, though I think this dichotomy is remarkably artificial. The most successful scientists have always had strong strains of ''Homo politicus'' in them - Newton, Einstein, and so forth.<p>Anyhow, I'm not saying anything that WAS 4.250 hasn't already said more eloquently, but hopefully that will give you an idea of where I'm coming from. ''']'''&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 23:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
	Those two complementary articles — ] and ] — are a tad confusing. Both mention ] as an ] disorder. What disorder (if any) is associated with the ] end of the axis?
	The method I use, which is called the ], normally works pretty well in a scientific culture. However, it is well known that the ] does not work well in political cultures. I am not aware of any methods that work at all in political cultures.
	A ] would include one or more of the following aspects of a :
	{{quotation|<center><H4>Shreklisch Onion Layer Character Model</H4></center><P>1. Innermost Fears (Amygdala and Hippocampus)<P> 2. Burbling Emotions (Limbic System)<P> 3. Undisclosed Backstory (Long-Term Memory)<P> 4. Burning Issues (Identify Fiend or Foof)<P> 5. Sacred Beliefs (Neocortex)<P> 6. Derivative Practices (Cerebellum)<P> 7. Heart's Desires (HeartMind)<P> 8. Avowed Intentions (Throat)<P> 9. Foolish Actions & Reactions (Muscles)<P> 10. Dreadful Drama (Shreklisch Life Story)}}
	Regarding the elephant in the room, my fundmental question is one of clinical diagnosis: What is the ''name'' of the elephant in the room?
	Did you know that Socrates was so roundly disrespected that the Greek Senate bid him drink Hemlock? Fancy that.
	According to Maggie Martinez, there is a who wouldn't be students, come hell or high water.
	As to where you are coming from, MastCell, I daresay I don't have a shred of reliable data to plug into a with your name on the label. I don't know your real name, your educational background, your interests, your beliefs, your desires, or intentions.
	As Socrates would say, I am an ignorant man when it comes to knowing the first thing about you.
	It's hard to put one's faith or trust in an unknown, especially an unknown who would blithely ratify a haphazard and erratic ] of a fellow admin.
	] (]) 03:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
	:I'm not asking you to put any faith or trust in me. I'm offering a handful of observations on the difficulties you've encountered here. If they seem to you to be reasonable, sensible observations, then please take them under advisement. If they seem lacking in coherence, clarity, scientific rigor, or whatever other criteria you choose to apply, then you're free to disregard them. That's the case regardless of whether I'm the president of the National Academies of Science or a ], and regardless of whether you've established a theory of mind in my case.<p>Incidentally, Socrates was tried not by the Greek Senate (I'm not aware that such a body existed in Athens), but by a group of his fellow Athenians chosen by lot. During his trial, he managed to annoy the jury (intentionally?) to the point that they ordered his execution rather than the more usual punishment of a fine. Let's grant, for a moment, some level of analogy between Socrates' situation and yours. If Socrates had ducked out of Athens after his sentence and gone to Athens Review to complain about the Aristophanes Clique, rather than accepting the logical and perhaps desired consequence of his behavior at his trial, he would be perceived quite differently. What I'm saying is this: if one wants to be Socrates, one has to actually drink the hemlock. ''']'''&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 06:47, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
	::It's interesting to compare ] to ]. Many of Socrates' friends urged him to leave Athens and avoid the death sentence. But he elected to drink the ]. For the longest time, I wondered why he chose that alternative. Why didn't he do what my Great-Grandfather did and get the hell out of ] ''before'' the ]? But then my Great-Grandfather was a mere tailor. He had no great teachings to leave behind as the legacy of his life's work. And so he made his way to New York in the late 1880s (where my Grandfather was born), and thence to ] where there wouldn't be any ] for at least a century, until the ] got ahold of a crazy idea to exterminate some teachings from the biology textbooks. (Or something like that. I never really followed the story.)
	::But I digress. After the death of his famous pupil, ], Aristotle fled Athens in 322, "in order that the Athenians might not commit a second crime against philosophy" (alluding to the scandalous trial of Socrates). Aristotle died at his mother's family estate in Chalcis, on the island of Euboea within the same year, presumably of a ].
	::So, my dear MastCell, what flavor of ] are you serving ''this'' season?
	::] (]) 07:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::Hemlock? You're assigning me far too much importance. The most I have is an ]. And your name is on it not because I bear you any ill will - I don't; you seem like a thoughtful and interesting person - but because I continue to think that this particular website is not a good fit for your style, which you show no signs of modifying. ''']'''&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 22:21, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::Your reference to a ] reminds me that some observers have called me an ], while others would like to say I'm a ]. What's interesting is that both terms — one complimentary, one pejorative — have essentially identical etymologies. —] (]) 02:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	Moulton, you ask/say:
	*"''For the longest time, I wondered why he chose that alternative.''" - He was an old man and wanted to go out with a bang. Like some people, when they have had enough of Misplaced Pages, decide to force us to block/ban them (Wikipedian hemlock) by their being as annoying, disruptive, or vandalizing as they can be. Our article ]: "According to Xenophon's story, Socrates purposefully gave a defiant defense to the jury because "he believed he would be better off dead". Xenophon goes on to describe a defense by Socrates that explains the rigors of old age, and how Socrates would be glad to circumvent them by being sentenced to death. It is also understood that Socrates also wished to die because he "actually believed the right time had come for him to die"."
	*"''What disorder (if any) is associated with the ] end of the axis?''"
	] (]) 21:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
	:I always associated ] with (''i.e.'' Oligarchical, Rule-Oriented, Control-Oriented, Punishment-Oriented, Authoritarian Leadership). I Collegial, Function-Oriented, Observation-Oriented, Education-Oriented, Authoritative Leadership. —] (]) 22:01, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
	The :
	'''Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms may include:'''
	*Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness
	*Exaggerating your achievements or talents
	*Expecting constant praise and admiration
	*Believing that you're special
	*Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings
	*Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans
	*Taking advantage of others
	*Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior
	*Being jealous of others
	*Believing that others are jealous of you
	*Trouble keeping healthy relationships
	*Setting unrealistic goals
	*Being easily hurt and rejected
	*Having a fragile self-esteem
	*Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional
	] (]) 22:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
	::Poor Machiavelli, he's certainly gotten a bad rap. ] was really observational, not controlling. It did offer advice re "how to" based on observing previously successful rulers, but was not truly a roadmap to dominance. ] is more of a how to. And written by Soc's disciple. Cool. ]<sup>]</sup> 22:37, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::I suppose ] gets a worse rap than ] because Machiavelli was considered to be world-class philosopher. Hammurabi can be excused for his misconceptions. He obviously didn't know any better. Machiavelli's views, on the other hand are woefully lacking in insight and emotional intelligence:
	:::{{quotation|The theories expressed in The Prince are often venerated as shrewd methods that an aspiring prince can use to acquire the throne, or an existing prince can use to establish his reign. According to Machiavelli, the greatest ] good is a virtuous and stable state, and actions to protect the country, no matter how cruel, are always justified. It is vital that he do anything necessary to keep his power; however, Machiavelli strongly suggests that above all, the prince must not be hated. He does give a concise answer on whether or not a prince should be feared or loved. He states, "..a wise prince should establish himself on that which is his own control and not in that of others; he must endeavor to avoid hatred, as is noted." He also says "It is best to be both feared and loved; however, if one cannot be both it is better to be feared than loved."}}
	:::Machiavelli justifies cruelty and terrorism. ''Yeah, right''.
	:::] (]) 23:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::Increased morality in government behavior over the last few thousands of years has largely been a matter of replacing force (death, threats of death, etc) with fraud (religion and other lies). ] (]) 00:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::What a ''mechaiah''! We've evolved from coercion and torture to mere bamboozlement. —] (]) 01:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	===Orenda===
	Incidentally, the part of Machiavelli's argument that I ''do'' resonate with is his overarching objective of a "virtuous and stable state." Where I depart dramatically from him is on the most appropriate and efficacious method to achieve that desired state of political ]. To my mind (and I daresay many sociologists, criminologists, cultural anthropologists, literary artists and analysts, theologians, and former politicians would agree), the practices which Machiavelli proposes are manifestly '']'' — ineffective at best and counter-productive at worst. In ] culture, there existed an alternative concept and practice, largely unheard of in the dominant white culture of Europe and America, of . Has anyone here ever heard of ] (in its original Native American interpretation, rather than as the ] corporate name of a Canadian aerospace manufacturer)? —] (]) 10:52, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	: makes it seem like ]; and that article says: "in primitive religion souls occupy all physical entities". So far from being "largely unheard of"; it seems that Orenda is simply one language's word for what all primitive humans believe. ] (]) 21:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
	::If you remember the Disney animation, '']'', there is beloved musical number toward the beginning called ]. In that song, Pocahontas is reaming out John Smith over his obliviousness to ; she sings ] to convince him that her people have a different kind of wisdom. Cultural Anthropologist Daniel Quinn has also written extensively about ]. See, for example, Chapter 7 of '']'', wherein he writes, "Everything was ''burning''. Every blade of grass, every single leaf of every single tree was radiant, was blazing—incandescant with a raging power that was unmistakably divine." —] (]) 05:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::If that's Orenda, then the last time I experienced it, I woke up with a splitting headache, a bit of ] that I still can't account for, and a lot of explaining to do. ''']'''&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 05:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::It sounds a little bit like a ], for a person who is normally a low-Dopamine contemplative type of person. like me are likely to be low-Dopamine, melancholy, contemplative types, except when we have one of our rare ]. Then the Dopamine level shoots up and the world looks like a ] poster for half a day or so. During these rare Dopamine Highs, we are very productive with new ideas and new material. You can mimic this effect with drugs like Ecstasy (]) except that one doesn't have authentic new ideas; instead one just has hallucinations that seem like a great idea at the time. Compare ] to the ]. —] (]) 06:13, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::Poor redheads. You guys can't even get a solid buzz from ]s (PMID 14709456) or ]s (PMID 15277908). To add insult to injury, you're also more sensitive to pain (PMID 15731586). :) ''']'''&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 06:34, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::::Thank you for raising to my attention this valuable information about ]:
	::::::{{quotation|<H4>]</H4><P>Severe behavioral changes resulting from benzodiazepines have been reported including ], ], anger, impulsivity, and ].<sup><small>]]</small></sup> Individuals with ] appear to have a greater risk of experiencing severe behavioral or psychiatric disturbances from benzodiazepines. Aggression and violent outbursts can also occur with benzodiazepines, particularly when they are combined with alcohol. Recreational abusers and patients on high-dosage regimes may be at an even greater risk of experiencing paradoxical reactions to benzodiazepines.<sup><small>]]</small></sup> Paradoxical reactions may occur in any individual on commencement of therapy and initial monitoring should take into account the risk of increase in anxiety or suicidal thoughts.<sup><small>]]</small></sup>}}
	::::::That insightful analysis goes a long way toward solving . The ] in that story told me she was on ], a drug I was entirely unfamiliar with. It's possible the Valium ''caused'' her to become psychotic and violent and to fail to remember her psychotic episodes afterwards. It also explains why an application of the ] was such a contra-indicated treatment, as that would obviously exacerbate her level of ].
	::::::Alas, the solution to ''that'' mystery comes twenty years too late. But it may not be too late to apply those insights to other troubled relationships which mimic the dynamics of that unforgettably prototypical one.
	::::::] (]) 12:01, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
	== Ethics at DHMO's RfA ==
	At WR you : "''Guy (or anyone else, for that matter), do you have an analysis of what went haywire in DHMO's RfA process?''" With all this talk about the case, I decided to read it yesterday. The 44th (correction '''74th''') "No" !vote claimed a breach of ethics that most found believable and telling. He apparently can not be trusted not to divulge confidential information for purposes of revenge. This seems to confirm suspicions by others that he lacks judgement. ] (]) 00:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
	: (''not'' the same person as ]) , ''"Nothing went haywire. An immensely popular editor was doing very well, when a determined group of people decided to oppose. Things got increasingly acrimonious until the poor editor couldn't stand the strain."''
	:] with that view.
	:The (cast by ]) says, ''"'''Oppose''' although I like DHMO, I agree with the views expressed that he does not yet show the consistent good judgment that is necessary. I can only hope he would do well as an admin, but I do not yet have the necessary degree of confidence in it."''
	:If I take your point, a person's position along the is correlated with the degree to which they adhere to sound ] standards.
	:] (]) 08:00, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
	::(correction '''74th'''). Sorry. "''Switching to strongest possible oppose: during this RFA, Giggy sent me a piece of private correspondence unsolicited, with the intent of compromising another user's personal privacy. I spoke with him one-on-one about this, and the conclusion that I divined from the conversation was that he thought that the offense was in that the third person may have been offended, and not that spreading around private correspondence is a terrible idea. I am not comfortable with Giggy having deleted material and access to private communities such as unblock-en-l or #-admins available to them anymore. I don't think the release of info was accidental either, and to be honest, I can't even rule out malice. The nitty-gritty of it was that Giggy came up to me out of the clear blue and asked "would you like personal information about ?" I replied with surprise, at which point he emailed me X's real name, as well as a long thread of correspondence that he had with them. I spoke with him about it a couple days after the fact and am convinced that it was just a stupid action which he didn't think through, but the impression I got was that he doesn't understand why it was wrong either.''"] (]) 12:03, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::Without compromising the undisputed facts here, one word stands out in the above: '''intent'''. How did you conclude that Giggy had an ''intent'' to compromise ''privacy'' as contrasted with some other intent? Could it not be the case that he ''unthinkingly'' compromised privacy whilst seeking to achieve some other objective in his correspondence with you? —] (]) 13:03, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::I do not conclude that he had an intent to compromise privacy. He ''did'' violate privacy. That's enough for people to decide not to support his "bid for the mop". ] (]) 01:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::I have no problem with you observing that he ''did'' compromise privacy. What I have a problem with is inferring ''malicious intent'' to compromise privacy. If you wish to hypothesize malicious intent, and ''publish that hypothesis in a prejudicial manner'', then I believe you have an ethical duty to support your published hypothesis with evidence and reasoning (and submit that evidence and reasoning to cross examination and peer review). The applicable precept here is, "Do not attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by ignorance or obliviousness." I, for one, would not want "the mop" to be in the hands of those who habitually hypothesize malicious intent where an hypothesis of mere ignorance, obliviousness, or sloppy mopping would more plausibly explain the soapy story line. —] (]) 10:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
	(<---)Moulton, you appear to be confused. First: '''I''' never used the word "malicious". The person who wrote the 74th comment, which I quote above, did. He said "''I don't think the release of info was accidental either, and to be honest, I can't even rule out malice.''" This is his opinion based on his personal experiences with this person. I have no hypothesis of motive. Second: I don't even care about motive, in a case like this. Only the end results. Whether one does something wrong due to careful conscious calculation or not, it is still one's brain making the decision and it does not matter much whether the part making the choice is part of the conscious or part of the unconscious - the end results are the same. I see no reason to tell military secrets, for example, to either traitors or fools - someone who can not be trusted to handle sensitive information sensitively should not have access to sensitive information regardless of the peculiarities of their individual failings. ] (]) 10:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
	:My apologies, WAS. I lost the ''chain of attribution'' there. I now see it was ] in that cited comment, who published an inference of malicious intent. Some respondents ''did'' call for restraint while Giggy was afforded a fair chance to refute East718's unsettling '']''. Others unskeptically accepted East's allegations and adjusted their vote accordingly. —] (]) 12:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
	== Civility As a Tool Against Academic Excellence ==
	At WR : "''Can someone unpack his "issue" with civility/incivility?''" My understanding is that some claim that our rules on civility are being used as a tool against academic excellence. See ] and ]. Others claim this is a misstatement and that in fact one can block/ban/argue and still be civil. There is some truth to both claims, which is why the debate has no clear resolution. ] (]) 00:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
	:Ben Franklin said, "Gentlemen, we can disagree without being disagreeable."
	:On 31 May, ] added a headline under the masthead of his main user page that he had become "disgusted" with Misplaced Pages. Curiously enough, that's the same term I used back on August 28th of last year, when I blogged my first memoir of ] here. The remaining comments on his user page make it sound like Filll is taking a ] from some or all of Misplaced Pages's politics.
	:As to civility, I tend to connect that term to the notion of granting others (especially one's adversaries) their ] (as that concept has come to be clarified in modern times). I suspect Filll may have something less comprehensive in mind, perhaps along the lines of avoiding excessive levels of ]. But it's also clear that he's concerned about bullying, threats of violence, and coercion or manipulation. I had some of those issues before the slate of candidates to the WMF Board of Elections, but I was from doing so because (thanks in part to Filll and his allies on the ]) I am not currently eligible to vote (or even ask questions) in the WMF Board Elections. Eventually another participant (from WikiBooks) ] I had in mind.
	:I consider ] to be a Civil Rights issue, whether it's voting on candidates for the WMF Board, or registering opposition to a so-called consensus among a clique of rogue editors who jealously guard their exclusive right to determine what goes into the BLP of an academic with whom they are entirely unfamiliar.
	:Meanwhile, Filll has started a personal blog, , which I have at Misplaced Pages Review. For reasons unbeknownst to me, Filll has not yet seen fit to release from moderation my on his blog.
	:] (]) 09:41, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
	::I have talked on Misplaced Pages to both you and Filll and in my opinion you are both very smart, very scientific, very ethical, and so damn convinced of your own position that you don't even hear others' positions. Both of you two wonderful fellows. It is very frustrating for a would-be middleman (a "smoother" according to a logic expert). ] (]) 12:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::Upthread, WAS, you can verify that early on in my conflict with Filll and his allied editors, I ] through every office I could discover or arouse, with frankly disappointing and dispiriting results. But if you are willing to step into the role as Mediator or Ombudsman or Chair of a Truth and Reconciliation Process, I would welcome your good offices. —] (]) 12:51, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::What is the minimum specific objectively-verifiable action that you wish Filll to take? ] (]) 01:55, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::To enter into a good faith dialogue, moderated by a mutually agreeable Chairperson, with the express goal of crafting a ] Process. The desired outcome would be to build a stable, functional, and civil communication bridge across the chasm which currently divides us. —] (]) 07:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
	(<---)What specific observables would we observe were this to happen? In other words, what objective criteria would allow us to assess whether or not this goal is reached? ] (]) 11:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
	:At a minimum, all parties to the dialogue could articulate the position of any ''other'' party in a way that is sufficiently objective that no participant objects to the proposed characterization of the other guy (or characterization of the events). The best outcome would be that the parties could reprise the central story of their drama (with a mutually satisfactory ending) that fairly retold the story of their conflict (preferably in the form of a delightfully entertaining, insightful, and therapeutic musical comedy). —] (]) 12:32, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
	::"''therapeutic musical comedy''" You had me going there, Moulton. I had thought you were serious. Now I realize that you are just pulling my leg. ] (]) 12:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::I'm quite serious, WAS. To my mind, that would be the best conceivable ''ultimate outcome'' of a near-term ] Process. In the spirit of ], that's the ''Final Absolution'' that ''I'd'' like to see. —] (]) 13:11, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::It's only serious if you can't tell the difference between the theoretical and the practical. If I ask where shall we go on vacation and the answer is "the moon"; then I cease to consider that the person I am talking to is engaged in a serious conversation about where to go on vacation and instead is indulging in games, flights of fancy, or theoretical musings. You are not being serious about finding a practical solution to a real problem. You are playing with words and indulging in fantasy. A "''therapeutic musical comedy''" has exactly zero chance of occurring as an outcome of a good faith dialogue between you and Filll. ] (]) 16:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::Please see for the difference between beliefs and practices. I believe that a dialogue (perhaps mediated by a moderator) is an excellent method for resolving differences between the parties to an unresolved conflict. Whether or not we have a good faith ] Process, WAS, I expect that the operatic composer and musicologist who contacted me last month about crafting an opera (not necessarily a ''comic opera'', but some kind of operatic treatment) will probably produce ''something'' of a musical nature out of this story. —] (]) 18:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::::You are playing with words and are infatuated with your own memes (repeated ''ad nauseum''). People have and will go to the moon, but not as a result of my vacation planning. I have no doubt that artistic productions, possibly including comedies, musicals, and dramas will be created that reflect on the absurdities of wiki-drama. But their possible therapeutic value is entirely conjectural. And they will not be "occurring as an outcome of a good faith dialogue between you and Filll". I repeat: you are playing with words.] (]) 01:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::The therapeutic value of the ] is fairly well established in human culture, especially the therapeutic value of . To the extent that Filll and others maintain an adversarial stance, and keep the going, there will just be that much more material for some gifted artist to set to music. —] (]) 03:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
	(<---)True enough. So get out the popcorn. My only point was that your plea for a "good faith dialogue between you and Filll" appears disingenuous given your actual words and choices; so therefore I won't be wasting my time trying mediate such a thing. Have I been useful to you in your efforts to keep this Vexagonistic Lunatic Scape-Goat Psycho-Drama going? I would like to think I did ''something'' useful for the arts in this matter. ] (]) 03:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
	:It's hardly disingenuous. Like my alter ego, , I've tried seventeen ways from Tuesday to resolve the long-festering conflict with Filll and the other ID Editors. Nor have I abandoned that pathway. But it's also a given that absent a resolution, there are other avenues for redress of grievance, including avenues of poetic justice. I don't happen to have any practical talent at StoryCraft (let alone Musical StoryCraft), but I imagine others do. I don't happen to have any talent at Wiki-Lawyering either, but I imagine others do. My talent is in , which may or may not be a useful talent here. So absent a ] Process, I'll continue to explore other possibilities, including those that tap into the . —] (]) 04:39, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
	::Are you willing to ask to be unblocked for the purpose of a "good faith dialogue between you and Filll"? If not, I'm not going to waste my time. You say you "tried seventeen ways from Tuesday". Try this. ] (]) 05:24, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::There is an ] underway where the community is reviewing whether or not the original RfC and subsequent block were proper. I am still waiting for the community to decide that issue. —] (]) 05:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::The last edit there is "''31 May 2008 WAS 4.250 I see no benefit in concluding this without a clear statement that Moulton does or does not wish to be unblocked ...''" The ball in your court. We are waiting on you. But you prefer to keep this Vexagonistic Lunatic Scape-Goat Psycho-Drama going, rather than make a clear simple statement. Your role in all this is as a key player, not a bystander. Funny how the key characters in a drama never quite get how their behavior is causative to the consequences. ] (]) 06:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
	I made my wishes very clear, WAS. I wish for the members of the English Misplaced Pages to adopt the ] upon which they are able to reach a community-wide consensus. At this point, not only is there no community-wide consensus at ], there appears to be a substantial and seemingly ] within the community, essentially pitting no more than a dozen ID Editors (and a handful of their loyal allies) against a number of other members of the English Misplaced Pages community.
	My desire to participate in the collaborative work of crafting mainspace articles, going forward, is contingent on the outcome of that (currently stalled) effort to reach a community consensus on ''"the way things are done here"'' going forward.
	With regard to the dwindling hopes of the lamentable stalemate at ], WAS, I direct your attention to this comparable episode in the '''Hoary History of teh Intarwebs''' that took place in the weeks leading up to 9/11...
	{{quotation|<center><H4></H4></center>
	InfoArchiTexture.VC.7.2231: ()<br>
	Wed, 06 Jun 2001 10:13:57 CDT (32 lines)
	By means of stealth and hackery, I have succeeded in discovering a
	hitherto unpublished document at the Hootne Reaper web site...
	<center></center>
	* "Our right lies in coercion. The word 'right' is a given and is proved by axiomatic assumption. The word means no more than: Give me what I require in order that thereby I may have a proof that you are subservient to me." -- Protocol 1. Article 12.
	* "The Hosts, whom we shall choose from among the Cafe at large, with strict regard to their capacities for loyal and servile obedience, will not be persons trained in the arts of government, rhetoric, or logic and will therefore easily become pawns in our game in the hands of men of cunning and genius who will be their superiors, specially bred and reared from early childhood to rule the affairs of the whole Cafe and eventually all other Web forums." -- Protocol 2. Article 2.
	* "In order to put public opinion into our hands we must bring it into a state of bewilderment by giving expression from all sides to so many contradictory opinions and for such length of time as will suffice to make the academics lose their heads in the labyrinth of Meta and come to see that the best thing is to have no opinion of any kind in matters political, which is not given to the public to understand, because they are understood only by him who guides the public. This is the first secret." -- Protocol 5. Article 10.
	* "The Fresh Press, which with a few exceptions that may be disregarded, is already entirely in our hands. The single troublesome exception of a rogue journalist named "Moulton" is being dealt with." -- Protocol 7. Article 5.}}
	] (]) 17:33, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
	:The Misplaced Pages community ''has'' adopted best practices on this matter (even if not on other matters). We have a community-wide consensus not to undo blocks or bans on people that refuse to request for one. It is unethical to force someone to be unbanned or unblocked if that's not what they wish. I am surprised at your unethical position that we should do so. ] (]) 03:42, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	::Last night, when I was creating a new login for myself on ], the registration page invited me to avail myself of the new ] feature. That sounded sensible, especially if I was going to register also on ] and/or ].
	::However, I ran into a small technical glitch...
	::{{quotation|<h3>Login unification status</h3><hr>From Meta<P>Your home wiki (listed below) is blocked from editing. Please contact a sysop in this wiki to unblock it. While it is blocked, you cannot merge your accounts.<P><h4>Home wiki</h4><hr><P>The password and e-mail address set at this wiki will be used for your unified account. You will be able to change which is your home wiki later.<P>&nbsp; &nbsp; * en.wikipedia.org (home wiki)}}
	::So I would request to be unblocked on the English Misplaced Pages for the express purpose of availing myself of the ] feature so that I may ply my craft, under a unified WikiMedia Login ID, on more collegial and congenial projects (other than the ]) sponsored by the ].
	::Note, also, that I had ] you to remove the block which prevents me from creating or editing subpages in my user space here on the English Misplaced Pages.
	::Also, please see , which raises the issue of which party has the ethical responsibility to undo an unethical act, once it's raised to their attention.
	::] (]) 12:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::I have copied your request to ] and ]. ] (]) 13:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::Thank you, WAS. I'll take a few minutes to read up at those noticeboards and await the outcome. —] (]) 17:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::''Addendum.'' WAS, when reviving the discussion at ], it would be helpful if you also restored the stub paragraph at ] that refers to the subpage. As you know, MiszaBot II automatically archives such stub paragraphs after 48 hours, even if the referenced subpage is still active.
	::::Here is how that stub paragraph looked on May 31, when MiszaBot II ] it:
	::::{{quotation|<H4>]<H4><Hr><P>Discussion on a potential unban of {{Userlinks|moulton}} has been moved to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Moulton. ]<P>time stamps. ] (]) 22:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)}}
	::::If you want the community at large to weigh in, it would be helpful if a stub parapraph along those lines were reinserted into ].
	::::] (]) 19:44, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::What would you think if I asked you to undo some unethical action of someone at WR? Misplaced Pages is no more a single entity than WR. Unblocking you will require people who did you no wrong to act. They have no ethical responsibility to unblock you if you don't even bother to ask them. And not even don't bother to ask them, but blame them for the acts of others. We are all volunteers here and no one is responsible or liable for any other person's actions. You really need to unlearn the lies you have learned at WR. ] (]) 13:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::I have long sought (with only modest success) to elevate the level of ethics at Misplaced Pages Review. If you have a list of specific examples where the participants or administrators at Misplaced Pages Review have fallen short of ], I am more than willing to use whatever good offices I have to seek a fair and just remedy, satisfactory to all affected parties.
	::::Upthread, you likened my treatment here last August and September to being "]." Am I to understand that it is your belief and position that the remaining upright citizens of the community have no obligation to come to the aid and comfort of those who are mugged in the park?
	::::] (]) 17:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::A man in a house in an unexpected flood climbed to his roof. The water rose as he prayed to his God for help. A rowboat came by as the water reached the bottom of the roof but he waved it off saying he was expecting a miracle from God. A helicopter came by as the water rose to his ankles, but he waved it off yelling God was sure to save him. After he drowned and went to heaven, he asked God why he did not answer his prayers. God said, "Who do you think sent the rowboat and helicopter?" ] (]) 11:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::::Speaking of divinely inspired helicopters, are you familiar with the story about ? —] (]) 12:04, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::That's the first I've heard of The Amusing Helicopter from Hell. ] (]) 13:30, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::::::I'm not a particularly widely read author. —] (]) 14:04, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
	<BR><Center><HR Width=480 Align="Center"></Center><BR>
	::: Technical note: I went through this last week with banned editor, ]. We managed to resolve it okay and unify the guy's accounts with a couple of minor glitches, so it's very do-able. Admins, Moulton or anyone else can email me for details - ] <sup>]</sup> 18:02, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::I already unblocked the account. Please see the bottom of the page. ] 18:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::Thank you, Thatcher. I'm running behind, as I came into MIT mid-morning to attend our weekly group meeting, which just ended. I have some catching up to do here. —] (]) 18:40, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::::Name-dropper. ] 18:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::Is it considered bad form to mention one's affiliations? —] (]) 19:06, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::::::Only when they're better than mine :) ] 19:29, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::: Duh! So you did ... :) - ] <sup>]</sup> 18:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	===Integrated Kohlberg-Gilligan Model of the Stages of Development of Moral and Ethical Reasoning===
	People with a balance of both intelligence and wisdom consistently operate at the uppermost rungs of the '''Integrated Kohlberg-Gilligan Model of Moral and Ethical Development'''...
	{{quotation|<Center><H4>Lawrence Kohlberg's Six Stages of Moral Reasoning<BR>
	Plus Carol Gilligan's Orthogonal Axis of Ethical Care</H4></Center>
	'''Stage 1: Punishment-Avoidance and Obedience''' — Individuals make moral decisions on the basis of what is best for themselves, without regard for the needs or feeling of others. They obey rules only if established by more powerful individuals; they disobey when they can do so without getting caught.
	'''Stage 2: Exchange of Favors''' — Individuals begin to recognize that others also have needs. They may attempt to satisfy the needs of others if their own needs are also met in the process. They continue to define right and wrong primarily in terms of consequences to themselves.
	'''Stage 3: Good Boy/Good Girl''' — Individuals make moral decisions on the basis of what actions will please others, especially authority figures. They are concerned about maintaining interpersonal relationships through sharing, trust, and loyalty. They now consider someone's intentions in determining innocence or guilt.
	'''Stage 4: Law and Order''' — Individuals look to society as a whole for guidelines concerning what is right or wrong. They perceive rules to be inflexible and believe that it is their "duty" to obey them.
	'''Stage 5: Social Contract''' — Individuals recognize that rules represent an agreement among many people about appropriate behavior. They recognize that rules are flexible and can be changed if they no longer meet society's needs.
	'''Stage 6: Universal Ethical Principle''' — Individuals adhere to a small number of abstract, universal principles that transcend specific, concrete rules. They answer to an inner conscience and may break rules that violate their own ethical principles.
	'''Orthogonal Axis: Ethics of Care''' — An obligation of care rests on the understanding of relationships as a response to another in terms of their special needs. Focuses on the moral value of being empathetic toward those dearly beloved persons with whom we have special and valuable relationships, and the moral importance of responding to such persons as unique individuals with characteristics that require custom-crafted responses to them that we do not normally extend to others.}}
	An automaton can trivially operate at Stage 4, given a comprehensive list of the rules to be obeyed or applied. However, it is well known that such a system, populated by none but rigorously rule-driven robots, nonetheless typically yields a that few would characterize as the behavior of an intelligent system.
	] (]) 10:29, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
	:See also a newly completed ] at the ] on the ]. —] (]) 23:54, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
	== ID RfC Volunteers ==
	Hi Moulton. I recently posted at the "Intelligent design editors" RfAr asking for volunteers to help craft an RfC. In case you're interested in contributing, I'll keep an eye on this thread for any items you might post. Thanks, ] (]) 23:06, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
	:OK. Pretty much anything I'd contribute would already be found ] on this page or in my ]. I went looking for your E-Mail address, but you don't seem to have one. It would be helpful if I had a way to communicate with you short of posting notes here on my talk page. —] (]) 00:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
	::Thanks, I've taken an interest in reading through the many dead <s>trees</s> capacitors killed by your case, so I'm becoming pretty familiar with things. Maybe you could point me back to a short list of the things most directly relevant to an RfC, either now or as the composition of an RfC (hopefully) proceeds. ] (]) 00:49, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
	Let me walk through the items listed above in the section on Relevant Discussions and comment on them in the context of their possible usefulness in an RfC.
	=== On-Wiki Annotated Relevant Discussions ===
	* ]
	This was my first encounter with any of the ID Editors (primarily ] and ]). Therein, Filll abruptly announces his intention to abort the dialogue and file an RfC against me (see ] elsewhere on this page).
	* ]
	This is the archive of my talk page from that epoch. Note especially the trolling by ], who registered expressly to take part in the RfC. Baegis also posted the , which ] without further ado.
	* ]
	This is the RfC which ] and ] initially prepared in and filed a few days later.
	* ]
	This is the talk page for the above RfC. Some of the material that I filed in my Response Section of the RfC was moved to the talk page. I didn't understand the rules which allowed the adversarial editors to add or remove content from my Response section. Also note that at the bottom of this talk page, ] has reprised content previous removed from the ] page as a result of an MfD listed below.
	* ]
	This is the notice that ] posted when she decided to end the RfC without seeking consensus at the Community Sanction Board.
	* ]
	This is "Durova's Gambit" to see if there would be any backlash if she took the initiative to unblock me.
	*
	This is the archive from my talk page when ] and ] helped me file an ArbCom Review of Due Process in the original RfC and subsequent Indef-Block by ].
	* , declined with minimal comment
	This is the RfAr as of the date when ] prematurely deleted it, before ] had yet responded to it, and before the 11 days were up.
	* ]
	This is a tangentially related incident, when ] undertook to correct a portion of the BLP on ] and ran into flak from the ID Editors.
	* ]
	This is the MfD that arose in the wake of ] recreating the ] page and populating it with mostly specious allegations, unsupported by evidence or coherent analysis.
	*
	This is ]'s analysis of ]'s allegations which FM had posted on the ] page, revealing them to be largely unsupported by evidence or coherent analysis
	*
	This is the tangential commentary on Undertow's talk page when he took the initiative to oppose FeloniousMonk.
	*]
	This is the tangential incident report associated with the ensuing battle between The Undertow and FeloniousMonk.
	* ]
	This is the well-known RfAr/C68-FM-SV Evidence Page, which includes evidence regarding FM's machinations with respect to me.
	* ]
	This is the WP:AN/Moulton that Giggy started, in which Lar, Sam Korn and others examined the circumstance of RfC/Moulton and the subsequent Indef-Block and found them to be a sham.
	* ] (referenced in ])
	This is ]'s biographical sketch and analysis of me, which, as I have suggested elsewhere on this page, needs to be reviewed for compliance with ], ], etc.
	* , dismissed as untimely
	This is ]'s RfAr/Moulton which he filed in the wake of the divide emerging in AN/Moulton.
	* (referenced in ], , and ])
	This is ]'s biographical sketch of me, containing allegations and evidence which he and/or Filll references or submits in the indicated RfAr's and RfC's.
	*
	This is the well-known RfAr on the ID Editors.
	*
	This is the associated talk page for the above RfAr.
	* ]
	This is an RfC filed on 10 June by ] and endorsed by ], alleging that disputatious editors are engaged in disputatious conduct, much to the annoyance and chagrin of the aggrieved editors whose conduct is being publicly examined.
	* ]
	This an RfC filed on 10 June 2008 by ] to consolidate dueling RfC's and RfAr's previously filed by competing factions.
	* ]
	This is the talk page for the above RfC.
	* ]
	This is a subpage in my userspace where I supply additional comments to Gnixon's responses to Filll's 8 questions at ].
	* ]
	This is a subpage of the ] ] on the ] in which ] and Scholar, ], conducts his own independent investigation of the Picard BLP.
	*]
	This is a subpage of ] on ] in which he conducts his own independent research of the Picard BLP.
	* ]
	This is the present talk page, which includes a brief ] section, a comprehensive summary of ], a ], a critique of ]'s ], my ] to Filll's ], a ] of a ] from ], a ] of articles by the ID Editors, and other variegated commentary.
	=== Off-Wiki Annotated Relevant Discussions ===
	See also , ,, and .
	See also , , , , and .
	] (]) 02:56, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
	:Sorry I missed the list above, and thanks for the helpful annotations. I noticed you gave some links in a more narrative form somewhere on WR. Would you mind if I dug that up and reposted it in an RfC? I would only get around to doing that if the RfC drafts seem to be developing constructively. ] (]) 15:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
	Here are the specific blog posts (one of which was reprinted as an Op-Ed in the Hard News Cafe, and two of which were reprinted as Op-Eds at Misplaced Pages Review)...
	* , August 28, 2007, (reprinted as a Misplaced Pages Review Op-Ed, , April 5, 2008)
	* , August 28, 2007, (reprinted as an Op-Ed, in at Utah State University, August 31, 2007)
	* , September 16, 2007,
	* , September 18, 2007,
	* , September 28, 2007,
	* , October 11, 2007,
	* , October 15, 2007,
	* , October 23, 2007,
	* , December 7, 2007,
	* , March 14, 2008, Misplaced Pages Review Op-Ed, () reprinted from
	* , May 08, 2008,
	* , May 19, 2008,
	* , May 21, 2008,
	* , May 22, 2008,
	* , May 31, 2008,
	* , July 13, 2008,
	* , July 20, 2008,
	* , August 06, 2008,
	* , August 11, 2008,
	* , , , August 14, 2008,
	You may cite, excerpt, reprint, or paraphrase from any of the above.
	] (]) 19:34, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
	::(Updated 13:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC))
	:Thanks much. ] (]) 03:56, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
	There is yet another narrative account, buried within a discussion thread at Misplaced Pages Review, that might be of some interest, too:
	* .
	] (]) 05:01, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
	See also this further list of pointers to relevant items:
	* , on the same WR thread, to Eric Barbour's request for more pointers.
	] (]) 05:16, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
	On the ] of the main article on ], please see this post on WR which discloses my unacknowledged suggestions to ] for improving it:
	* proposing improvements to the mainspace article on Intelligent Design.
	] (]) 05:55, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
	See also ], a ] at ]. —] (]) 13:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
	== Mae-Wan Ho ==
	I have ] on my watchlist. Saw a strange assertion about ] used POV push, Reverted. Notified someone more expert than myself: ]. Discovered ] and ]. Decided to improve article: . You'll note a coat-rack piece of trivia I deleted. I hope this doesn't turn into a fight. I hate fights. ] (]) 04:53, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	:{{cquote|] '''(HGT)''', also ] '''(LGT)''', is any process in which an organism transfers genetic material to another cell that is not its offspring.}}
	:Isn't ] of an ovum by a sperm cell an instance of ]?
	:In other words, isn't HGT/LGT a metaphor for a ''seminal idea''?
	:So, let's now turn to the editorial dispute ''du jour''...
	:.
	:''Sustained applause.''
	:Way to go, Counselor.
	:I'm ''kvelling''.
	:] (]) 11:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	::Fertilization of an ovum by a sperm cell is an instance of '''vertical''' gene transfer, like you find on a family tree or the "tree of life"; you know, parents having kids, or a life form reproducing its own kind without sex. Horizontal gene transfer typically transfers one or more genes '''between''' species; messing with the formerly oh-so-neat tree of life and putting cobwebs on it so it becomes net-like. ] (]) 12:32, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::Perhaps the definition which I cited above (from the English Misplaced Pages article) is overly broad or ill-written. I am not a cell biologist, but it is my understanding that the male's sperm cell and the female's ovum are ''not'' vertically related in most cases. (The rare cases where they ''are'' Oedipally related are ''quite'' celebrated, albeit in a disapproving manner.)
	:::As I read the local article on the English Misplaced Pages, ''vertical transfer'' occurs when an organism receives genetic material from its ancestor, e.g. its parent or a species from which it evolved.
	:::—] (]) 13:19, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	::If you want to read about it I suggest http://en.citizendium.org/Horizontal_gene_transfer. Their article'''s''' on it are far better than ours. I put links to their articles in our article's further reading/external links section. ] (]) 12:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::Thanks. Let's take a look at the definition there...
	:::{{cquote| occurs when an transfers its genetic material to a being other than one of its own offspring.}}
	:::Aha! Now we have Poppa transferring genetic material to a ''new being'' (not just a genetically unrelated cell in Momma's somatic custody), and that new being is an ''offspring''. That rewording changes the transfer from one of ''horizontal recreation'' to one of ''vertical recreation''.
	:::That clears that up nicely.
	:::] (]) 13:19, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	== Unblocked ==
	I have temporarily unblocked your account to allow you to create a merged single user login. Please let me know when this is completed. ] 14:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	:Thank you, Thatcher. If you have no objections, I would also like to take this opportunity to do some housekeeping in my user space. In particular, I'd like to begin archiving some of the content here on my current talk page, as this page is beginning to resemble ]. —] (]) 19:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	::As long as you only edit within your own user space I don't see any harm in that. ] 19:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	::: I agree - ] <sup>]</sup> 19:26, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::Thank you. If and when the time comes for me to respond directly to any of the ongoing or upcoming RfAr's or RfC's in which I am named as a vile miscreant, I'll consult with each of you (and others such as Lar, Sam Korn, and Kim Bruning) regarding the most appropriate way to proceed. —] (]) 19:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::''Update:'' I successfully converted to Single Unified Login. —] (]) 02:10, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::<s>Are you done with your user space? ] 02:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)</s>
	::::::Never mind, its only been a few hours. Just let me know when you are done. ] 02:24, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
	== And the Band Played On ==
	#I placed "]" at ].
	# is interesting. What do you think of the ]?
	# At ] you said: "''English Misplaced Pages's standards for due process''". You know, because we have told you, that Misplaced Pages does not do "due process". So what might be "English Misplaced Pages's standards for due process"? I'm guessing that might be ] which is "''a proactive method for reaching consensus on any wiki with revision control. It can be useful for identifying objections to edits, breaking deadlocks, keeping discussion moving forward. Note that this process must be used with care and diplomacy''" The idea is that since this is all virtual, we can make the fastest progress by everyone just boldly doing whatever they think needs doing and if there is a problem, then we can revert whatever happened and discuss and come to a conclusion. An avater being virtually mugged in a virtual central park is part of the process. People were bold. People make mistakes. So we can resurrect that avatar and move on. But wait. The person behind the avatar does not want to be resurrected. OK, so we move on without them. That's the "English Misplaced Pages's standards for due process" - we treat errors that can be recovered from as no big deal. It would be nice if we made fewer errors. But we are all too human.
	#As near as I can tell, you and Filll had a massive communication misunderstanding that was due to both of you - but I wasn't there.
	# At ] you said: "''I did publish two such articles.''" As they are not published in '''a reliable source''', we can not use them to verify claims in an article. However, original research ''is'' used appropriately to convince other editors that a claim should be removed from an article. So all the talk about "original research" is a red herring when it comes to simply removing a claim. Properly cited claims are sometimes misprints, typos (eg left out the word "not"), a misunderstanding that a better source properly explains, or out of date and when identified as such should be removed.
	# At ] you said: "''I will be happy to provide helpful pointers to otherwise hard-to-find URLs which speak to this fascinating question.''" Please do. From what I've seen, you act in ways online that others find bothersome. Perhaps I'm wrong.
	] (]) 16:24, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
	<Blockquote>
	# Thank you, WAS. I'll probably craft a similar subpage later today to respond to ].
	# To my mind, the technological singularity which Ray Kurzweil believes is near corresponds to a profound paradigm shift that I believe is both inevitable and long overdue. I predict the paradigm shift will occur when approximately one fourth of the population become high-functioning individuals (i.e. advancing from the currently dominant ] Homo Politicus to currently Homo Scientificus). What's holding this up is the lamentably slow growth of the demographic group of individuals who are relatively strong in ]. I estimate we are at roughly 5% of the population being in this .
	# At the present time (as you, Lar, and others have noted), the English Misplaced Pages has little (if any) appreciation of the ], as they have come down from their initial introduction into Western culture at .
	# As I ] the "massive misunderstanding" between Filll and myself, he had crafted (and acted upon) an erratic and unscientific ] about me, whereas I had not gotten beyond the Null Model with respect to understanding where Filll was coming from.
	# I sought to remove inaccurate content that was ''not'' supported by a careful reading of Kenneth Chang's article in the New York Times. I happened to know (from personal knowledge) that the content I sought to remove was factually untrue. But I was unable to fathom how the ID Editors had inferred such a woefully inaccurate reading. Note that recent changes at the main article on ] have from the overstated account that had long been touted as the "consensus" of the ID Editors who controlled that article. Last August, I was one of the lone voices in the wilderness challenging that flawed "consensus" of the ID Editors.
	# I'll begin digging up the obscure URLs later today, as they are not yet compiled in one convenient location.
	</Blockquote>
	:] (]) 18:27, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
	===Pointers to URLs which speak to ]===
	Per Item #6, above...
	FeloniousMonk unskeptically trusted, gleaned, and submitted the testimony of /, , and on , whilst submitting . Filll .
	Do Filll and FeloniousMonk have any idea whose testimony they are relying on in FM's (whom he and Dave Souza then to my real life identity)?
	Do those three "character witnesses" from WorldCrossing meet the Misplaced Pages criterion for ], ] or ]? Two of FM's cited sources are pseudonymous avatars, including one . A close examination of the cited references reveals how oblivious FeloniousMonk is with regard to both the ''criteria'' for valid evidence and the ''content'' of the cited web pages. The content not only doesn't support his interpretation, it wouldn't even be valid or reliable evidence if it did, per ] and ]. For a long-term Misplaced Pages admin to demonstrate such astonishing incompetence at evidence-driven reasoning, and for an acolyte to mindlessly repeat the error is nothing short of gobsmacking.
	] (]) 04:33, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
	==Deletion of personal information==
	See ], and do not release personal information about Misplaced Pages editors in future. Thanks, ], ] 19:06, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
	:Per your past history of this behavior, you are blocked indefinitely. In my opinion, you are done here. ]] 19:14, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
	::I would like to request an impartial review of the incident of mid-June, in which I was accused of a breach of privacy, summarily blocked without being afforded an impartial review or opportunity to present a defense, and in which my entire user space was summarily deleted in the midst of multiple RfAr's and RfC's in which I am named, accused, or otherwise referenced as a witness, and for which evidence residing in these pages had been duly entered into evidence. I would request that counsel familiar with Misplaced Pages policies and practices be appointed by mutual consent to act as presenter of evidence on my behalf to the various unresolved proceedings now underway or stalled in the wake of precipitous actions last month by adversarial admins with whom I have ongoing and unresolved issues. ] (]) 00:12, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
	=== No Convictions Without Giving the Opportunity to Present a Defense ===
	On June 29th, Jimbo Wales ]:
	{{quotation|I have encouraged the ArbCom to move slowly and thoughtfully. Gather all the facts. Don't have a public argument with each other that confuses people or gives trolls the opportunity to turn more people against each other. Figure out what went wrong, correct it, apologize where beneficial to do so, and build a better framework going forward. You don't get all that done in a weekend, and you don't further that kind of thoughtful and mature process with a hasty statement. I think the important statement has been made: no secret trials, and no convictions without giving the opportunity to present a defense. That's just basic justice, and I will overturn any ArbCom decision to the contrary. (Although, I should point out, there is ZERO chance of the ArbCom doing this in the first place.)--] (]) 14:20, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}
	In view of the above principle, I wonder if Blueboy96 wishes to stand down from pending the presentation of a defense from me in the context of ]?
	] 14:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
	:Well, it really wasn't Blueboy that "blocked" you, since you were technically unblocked simply to do some non-controversial userpage maintenance. I always thought his statement above was funny, because it really wasn't up to him if you were blocked (over-all/technical/ or whatever) or not. It's like being in jail and someone lets you out just to move a desk, and then they go "that's it! I'm throwing you in jail!". -- ] 06:52, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
	== Welcome back. ==
	Now that you understand that we do have a ] (just not a good one); will you ''try'' to follow it? Please say yes. ] (]) 23:07, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
	:When did I (or anyone else) ever suggest I had departed from ]? To the best of my knowledge, I have never departed (intentionally or inadvertently) from ]. And if anyone believes otherwise, I would welcome a fair and impartial examination of the case. —] (]) 23:27, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
	::Lar told you to not even give the appearance of outing someone. You ignored that advice and were blocked. The custom in these here parts is to carry on debate about outing in email rather than on-wiki and only after there is a consensus offline that it is ok to name someone to then name them on-wiki. When you carry out that argument on-wiki, the argument becomes moot due to the outing that takes place as part of the argument. When you ignore the advice of your friends, then your friends give up on you here and then people who don't want you here find excuses to use to justify blocking you. We are all volunteers here. You can waste your time all you like, but don't expect other people to allow you to waste their time. ] (]) 00:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
	:::So he says, and I have no reason to doubt that. However, after Lar chided me (in E-Mail) for failing to heed his warnings, I went looking for the warnings he was referring to. At first I thought he was referring to warnings in private E-Mail or warning messages posted (or PM'ed) at Misplaced Pages Review. But an exhaustive search failed to turn up the referenced warnings. Then, after some further investigation, I learned that Dan Tobias had also backed up Lar's two warnings, which he (Dan) said he had posted here on this talk page. But that was news to me, since I had never seen any such item from Dan, nor was there any record of them in the history for this page. To the best of my knowledge and awareness Dan Tobias had ''never'' posted here, and ] was from May 24th and entirely unrelated to the events of mid-June. Finally, after considerable investigation, we figured out that their three warnings must have been posted in the thread that one of the adversarial editors (possibly FeloniousMonk) had started here, and which ]:
	<blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>
	{{quotation|<H3>]</H3>
	Could an administrator please remove the thread , and protect the page of this blocked editor? He has been warned about this repeatedly but still persists.--] (] &#124; ]) 16:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	:Eh? isn't this the matter above that just got blanked out at your request? Is the matter resolved or not? I'm confused at what is going on here. ++]: ]/] 16:39, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	::Agreed. This complaint is unclear to those of us who are not familiar with it's context. Please give more background (including diffs). Also, if you are looking for ] you need to follow the directions at the top of this page and not post here. --''']''' <sup>]</sup> 16:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	I've deleted the user pages, subpages and user talk page of this blocked and banned user. I've protected the user and user talk pages to prevent recreation. ] <small>(])</small> 16:47, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	:Did you review all the discussion that went beforehand before you did so? However at this time, given that this user reposted some things that (tangentially) revealed information about an editor who does not want that information revealed, after he was expressly counseled in no uncertain terms not to do that, regardless of whether he thought it was warranted or not, without first seeking advice about it, I think this user just does not get it. It's not an honest mistake any more, it's stubbornness. The matter needs addressing in a different manner than he was using. Support the reblank/reprotect. ++]: ]/] 16:51, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	I am sorry it came to this. This user seems to want to flout the rules of Misplaced Pages over and over. They might be stupid and unproductive rules in many cases, and they might need to be changed, but the answer is not to break them over and over and over. --] (] &#124; ]) 16:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	*From what I can see, it was one edit Moulton made, linking to a rename log. He didn't exactly use the name again, and he even seems to have provided the link in some unicode babble, but if you followed the link he provided, you could still see the name in the logs. This does directly contravene what Lar told him not to do, though ironically, Lar did something similar himself earlier. The difference is that Lar hadn't been told explicitly not to do this, and Moulton had. When you are near a cliff edge, you don't skip along looking up at the sky. ] (]) 17:13, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	**Though on closer examination, it seems Filll had more problems with a different section on Moulton's talk page (called "Outing others") where Moulton republished the descriptions of e-mail conversations that had been at ], but replaced John Doe with J...D... ie. he refactored it all. One thing I would say about all this, is that people who use their real name off-wiki when talking or e-mailing others about Misplaced Pages articles and Misplaced Pages editing, are asking for trouble. You just can't trust everyone to keep things confidential. If you don't want your name to be known on Misplaced Pages, don't use it off-wiki in such a way that it gets connected to, or can be connected to, your on-wiki activities. Keep things separated as far as possible. ] (]) 17:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	***If this is true, that Filll used his real name in e-mail communications, then he self-disclosed. Moulton is under no obligation to keep self-disclosures a secret. --] (]) 17:58, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	****There's a big difference: Filll has never used his real name onsite. I checked this out under similar circumstances long ago: the Foundation privacy policy still applies. <font face%3D"Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 18:17, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	Wait a minute. The discussions on ] are relevant to an ongoing RfC ("Intelligent design"), and some of the evidence at the RfC is now redlinked. Shouldn't the page be oversighted instead? ] (]) 17:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	:I agree. There was no need to delete all 759 edits. Some of the discussion there is relevant to things being discussed elsewhere. We don't simply delete all of a talk page because the user is indefinitely blocked or because a recent edit is problematic. ] (]) 17:44, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	:'''Speedy Undelete''' those pages at once ]. There are important conversations going on and you have no grounds to do this. I think it is Filll who does not get it. --] (]) 17:53, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::Dragon, please calm down. We have ''five'' separate actions by Moulton which violate the policy on harassment. Just an hour after Lar gave him very comprehensive advice regarding the issue, Moulton was back at it again. Saying "it is Filll who does not get it" really makes me wonder. ] (]) 18:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::From the look of what Lar wrote it would appear that he is talking about Moulton and not Filll. ] ] 18:38, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::::Umm..yeah. What I was trying to say was that Dragon seems to have the wrong person in his sights. Filll isn't at fault here, Moulton is. Lar advised Moulton to err on the side of caution when talking about people's real names. Moulton's response was to switch from real names to initials. Not very clueful. ] (]) 18:56, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	Just for context, there had been personal info in this user's subpages discussed recently here, which is why I went ahead and deleted this indefinitely blocked user's files.
	I'll be glad to reverse anything I've done, but this is a pretty complex issue <s> and I'm not sure restoring all those files are the right answer. We've got to balance protecting privacy, a highly disruptive editor and the ongoing needs of the discussion. Can someone clue me in to which files should be restored? Is it just the talk or is it the archives as well? Then we can look to see if there is personal info there. </s>
	:Rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater, I've restored most of the previous edits. If reversion is required, then please do so. ] <small>(])</small> 18:30, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	Alternatively if another admin has more context than me here, please go ahead and restore the appropriate files. No ego at stake here for me (at least in this case 8-). ] <small>(])</small> 18:23, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	:The privacy issue takes priority. Resolving that in a way that intrudes minimally on other matters is fine, as long as the privacy is adequately addressed. <font face%3D"Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 18:39, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	As was , I restored a bit too much. I think/hope I got it right this time. Please AGF on my part here. There were several other files in user space and user talk space that have been deleted. I assume it's only ] that is required at this point. If I don't have it right, then I think I should step aside from this issue at this point.
	Oh - and yes, I agree whole-heartedly that we should err on the side of protecting privacy here. ] <small>(])</small> 18:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
	:If someone accidentally reveals his actual name in emailing someone or in posting on IRC, that does not constitute a license to repeat that information on Misplaced Pages. One anti-Misplaced Pages site talked about the real name of an editor which had somehow popped up in an IRC posting, due to the software attaching his name and institutional affiliation. I have avoided IRC for that reason, not being sure what personal info would be revealed in a posting. I once emailed Misplaced Pages with an oversight request, after creating an email account which did not attach my real name. I was surprised to find that the software tried to pick up my other (real name) email account rather than the account specifically attached to Misplaced Pages. Another type of accident would be if one did a copy and paste in a posting, and the software on the PC pasted the wrong text, something previously copied which included personal contact info (thank God for "Show preview"). But these or other accidents should not be cited as a license for someone to maliciously reveal personal information which the editor has not intentionally posted on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 17:21, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
	::I would agree with that. Inadvertent disclosure doesn't count as deliberate. But where is the line? If I suddenly took my real name off my user page now, does everyone have to now keep it secret? Maybe. What if I write people (WP users, say) notes signed with my real name? Just one note? Probably was a slip. Scads? Probably not. What if I write people that have little or nothing to do with WP and sign my real name, and say I'm writing as user so and so... when exactly do I waive my privacy right? Can I take back a previous disclosure without abandoning my old ID and starting over? I think there's something underlying this matter that may not be exactly clear without further analysis. ++]: ]/] 16:26, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
	:::Very much so, and I explicitly asked ArbCom for a decision a year ago on the question of retracting a voluntary onsite disclosure. They declined to make a decision. What is clear is that if a person has disclosed his or her identity ''offsite and only offsite'', then it violates Foundation privacy policy for anyone else to use it onsite. <font face%3D"Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 20:48, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
	Just a clarification. Moulton is not, and never has been, banned. ]] 11:06, 18 June 2008 (UTC)}}
	</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>
	:::Toddst1 then the ] at 16:41 16 June 2008 (UTC), barely 15 minutes later. All that happened in a brief span of time during which I was away from the computer, attending to another task that morning. By the time I caught up here, everything had been deleted (including the warning messages from Lar and Dan Tobias) and I didn't have a clue who had posted what. But you can see from the deleted thread title, "Outing others" that this thread was almost surely started by an adversarial party. Thus I was accused of not heeding warnings that the adversarial editors had hastily deleted before I even knew about them.
	:::With respect to your next point, I ''did'' request that those who were counseling me advise me on how to treat the E-Mails from Filll that related to his 8 Questions. I posted my proposed course of action in a thread bearing my name in a non-public forum on Misplaced Pages Review that both Alison and Lar were tracking. They both readily admitted they had read my posting there. (And in one case there is even additional confirmation because my postings happen to be bracketed by an aside about a sculpture for which I had posted an embedded image. The server logs for the image confirm and datestamp when those tracking that thread viewed it.) No one waived me off. Not Lar, not Alison, not any of the others who might have issued a warning at that point. I took their collective silence to be assent to my proposed course of action. If this matter is ever reviewed, I will produce that thread (which has always been visible to anyone at WR who has posted at least 300 times).
	:::So color me vexed and perplexed, WAS. I posted my plan, waited for objections from Lar, Alison, and anyone else at WR (which never came) and then acted on my plan to respond forthrightly to Filll's interrogatories at RfC/ID. And it was you, WAS, who ] to those responses for me at RfC/ID.
	:::So I ask you, WAS, was that fair treatment back on June 16th?
	:::] (]) 01:29, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
	::::I think the problem here is that Lar made that statement on this page and you for some reason did not "see" it even though it was there. My memory is that you posted outing material '''below''' Lar's warning. Perhaps my memory is wrong. I know I read his warning on this page. I know I saw you violate that warning on this page. I'm pretty sure the warning was still there when you made your post. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. But I believe you when you say you did not "see" it. Some form of mental blindness where your eyes ran over it, but your brain did not process the data? ] (]) 02:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
	:::::If we can get Lar or Alison or someone to recover the deleted pages, perhaps we can deconstruct what really happened. The thing that tipped me off to something not being right was when Lar mentioned Dan Tobias. Since Dan had never posted on my talk page, that was the red flag that tipped me off. I'm looking at the E-Mail now. Notice that at 16:51 (UTC) in the AN/I thread, Lar mentions his warnings to me. My first E-Mail from Lar, which is when I first get wind of a problem, is timestamped 12:54 PM (EDT), which is 3 minutes later than his post at AN/I. So ''my'' first inkling arrives in my mailbox ''after'' Lar has posted a remark about it at AN/I. My reply to Lar, with a timestamp of 1:02 PM (EDT) just says, "Hrmmm??? Now what did they do?" That response is evidence that I had not yet looked at the Misplaced Pages page (which by that time had been deleted, anyway). —] (]) 02:56, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
	::::Interestingly enough, I ran into a similar thing with Lar a while back in which stuff was being deleted all over the place and someone asked what was going on and I replied mentioning something I remembered Lar saying; but Lar showed up on my talk page saying he hadn't said it and wanted me to retract what I said. But with deletions all over the place, my memory was all I had, and if I could not find it (I didn't look too hard) it may just have been because it was deleted. So I said that while I may have been wrong, that I could not find the diff did not prove anything so I wasn't going to change my statement. Lar said, well, I'll know better now what to think of your claims in the future or something to that effect (it was more sad in tone than a threat in tone). ] (]) 02:18, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
	:::::In this case there is no question that the thread had been deleted (by Toddst1 at Filll's urgent request). What I don't know is what was in the thread when it was deleted, and what was in it when I had last looked it (assuming that, as you say, I had seen at least some earlier version of it). And I do recall seeing that FM had posted something on my page. That was probably the thread, and his post might have been the first or second. I might have clicked on just the diff to see what he posted, in which case I might not have seen other contemporaneous postings in that diff view. Keep in mind that events at that hour were also happening faster than anyone could follow them in real time. There was a rapid colloquy at AN/I and hectic activity on my talk page that Toddst1 erased prior to my seeing Lar's first E-Mail to me. ] (]) 02:56, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
	===Action Research===
	Also about "Action Research"; please read ]. Just make sure that you do your best to not be ''disruptive'' during your research. You are not the first person to think of using Misplaced Pages processes against Misplaced Pages to "prove" that those processes should be changed. Saying they should be changed is ok. Using the rules to cause harm just so you can demonstrate that the rules need changing is not ok. ok? ] (]) 00:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
	:As far as I know, everything we are doing on Wikiversity is Kosher and above-board. The only thing you've objected to is the music buttons which help set the mood of the day. —] (]) 01:29, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
	::Oh. I thought by "Action Research" that you were referring to planned future activities on WikiPedia. Never mind... ] (]) 01:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
	:::] is the name of a general problem-solving methodology that they use in education. Jon Awbrey's wife, Susan, is among those who developed the method. She worked with the Dean of Education at Oakland University who later became Dean of Education at Boston College. I know him because he's my neighbor. —] (]) 02:56, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
	===Request for High-Level Review of Questionable Block===
	{{unblock reviewed|1=I am requesting an impartial review of the incident of mid-June, in which I was accused of a breach of privacy, summarily blocked without being afforded an impartial review or opportunity to present a defense, and in which my entire user space was summarily deleted in the midst of multiple RfAr's and RfC's in which I am named, accused, or otherwise referenced as a witness, and for which evidence residing in these pages had been duly entered into evidence. I would request that counsel familiar with Misplaced Pages policies and practices be appointed by mutual consent to act as presenter of evidence on my behalf to the various unresolved proceedings now underway or stalled in the wake of precipitous actions last month by adversarial admins with whom I have ongoing and unresolved issues.|decline=This request does not address the reasons for which you are blocked. An unblock request should address your block and your actions that led up to it, not the actions of others; see ]. Because Misplaced Pages is not a legal system, you do not have a right to counsel. — <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 07:14, 27 July 2008 (UTC)}}
	:Here is the message I sent to Sandstein...
	{{cquote|There doesn't seem to be a template category for what I am seeking.
	I am seeking a review of the circumstances leading up to my block.
	To put it bluntly, I am seeking high level review of corrupt practices by adversarial editors who have blocked me for specious and capricious reasons, without due process, and for political reasons relating to evidence I have submitted to RfAr's and RfC's involving the adversarial editors who rushed to block me.}}
	:] (]) 11:26, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
	::Such review is not available through an unblock request. If at all, it is only available through arbitration, which you may also request per e-mail to any member of the arbitration committee. Please limit any future unblock requests to the question of why you think your block is not allowed under the blocking policy. If you do not, or if you use this page for unrelated purposes, this page may be protected from editing and/or you may be blocked from sending e-mails. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 11:35, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
	:::I have undone in which you retrospectively changed the text of the message that you say you previously sent me. Any further violations of ] may result in an immediate and permanent protection of this talk page. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 12:47, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
	Here is the text of the revised and extended message which I have sent you. This message supercedes the original one and includes additional information clarifying what I am seeking and why.
	{{cquote|There doesn't seem to be a template category for what I am seeking.
	I am seeking a review of the circumstances leading up to my block.
	To put it bluntly, I am seeking high level review of corrupt practices by adversarial editors who have thrice blocked me for specious and capricious reasons, without due process, and for political reasons relating to evidence I have submitted to RfAr's and RfC's involving the adversarial editors who rushed to block me.
	I am not seeking to be unblocked for the purpose of editing mainspace articles. Rather I am seeking to be unblocked so that I may continue to construct and compile evidence residing in my userspace that reponds to the several RfAr's and RfC's in process vis-a-vis the clique of adversarial editors who have thrice sought to silence my testimony against them.}}
	Please advise if the reason given in the additional paragraph meets the test of an unblock request, especially in view of ]:
	{{cquote|I have encouraged the ArbCom to move slowly and thoughtfully. Gather all the facts. Don't have a public argument with each other that confuses people or gives trolls the opportunity to turn more people against each other. Figure out what went wrong, correct it, apologize where beneficial to do so, and build a better framework going forward. You don't get all that done in a weekend, and you don't further that kind of thoughtful and mature process with a hasty statement. I think the important statement has been made: no secret trials, and '''no convictions without giving the opportunity to present a defense. That's just basic justice''', and I will overturn any ArbCom decision to the contrary. (Although, I should point out, there is ZERO chance of the ArbCom doing this in the first place.)--] (]) 14:20, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}
	It appears to me that the admin who summarily blocked me on June 16th is not quite so circumspect in regard of this unalienable precept as Jimbo asserts for the more experience ArbCom members.
	] (]) 15:44, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
	:No, this is not an adequate unblock request, because it does not address the reasons for your block and why you think your block violated our blocking policy. You do not need to be unblocked in order to collect evidence and to submit it to the arbitration committee by e-mail. Likewise, you may "construct and compile evidence" offline, such as in a word processor. If the committee and Jimbo Wales decline to hear your case, you have exhausted all venues of appeal on the merits of your case. If they do decide to hear your case, they may unblock you to the extent this is required for the purpose of the proceedings. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 17:18, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
	::The reasons for the block are abundantly clear. The reasons are to silence a whistleblower who has uncovered systemic corruption and who has compiled an overwhelming evidentiary record to expose the corruption. I claim that silencing a whistleblower is a bogus reason for a block, full stop. Do you disagree?
	::Moreover, there are multiple proceedings underway not only in RfAr venues but also in RfC and AN venues. It's not just ArbCom who awaits the evidence and testimony that I seek to provide. It's the community at large, operating at stages that precede ArbCom review. See, for example, ], directing the community to complete a community-wide discussion first before declaring an impasse and taking it to ArbCom.
	::To my mind it is improper for parties involved in a wide-ranging conduct review (including serious allegations of systemic corruption) to capriciously block an adversarial witness and summarily expunge their evidence and testimony.
	::] (]) 21:00, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
	:::These allegations are as wide-ranging as they are unspecific (and hence not actionable). I feel that I'm wasting my time here and won't reply further. If you have the "overwhelming evidentiary record" you claim, feel free to submit it to the ArbCom per E-mail. If they think you need to edit for some reason, they will unblock you. Otherwise, please limit any future unblock request to the issues I have mentioned above (your block and why it violates ]), and supply persuasive diffs for your claims. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 22:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
	===Second Request for High-Level Review by Impartial Admin of Questionable and Controversial Block===
	{{unblock reviewed|1=On June 15, User:Blueboy96 blocked me with the reason given as "Personal attacks, outing other editors. Sorry, you're done here", after I prepared evidence and testimony in response to ]. My response to Filll's interrogatories included verbatim text prepared and disseminated by User:Filll back in August 2007 that refuted an embedded counterfactual that he (User:Filll) had incorporated in his statement at RfC/ID and upon which his interrogatories were predicated. User:Filll took exception to the evidence refuting his counterfactual because it included self-identifying information that User:Filll had included in the cited evidence which I was quoting back to him. The text that he was objecting to was his own text, not anything I had written. It was neither a personal attack nor an "outing" as it was his own self-identification in the communications of August 2007 that his interrogatories expressly referred to. There ensued a that User:Filll eventually requested be blanked. User:Filll and his allied editors at RfC/ID argued on one side, other members of the community, with no personal stake or conflict of interest argued on the other side. Most notably User:Lar, who is a Steward, argued against Filll and his allied editors. Lar wrote:
	{{cquote|I had a chance to look into this. I think, if I understand what happened, this is a bad block and I can explain why. Since explaining why might itself "out" Filll, I'm not totally sure how to do it here effectively. But let me try. Near as I can tell, (based on my looking into things and on a note I got from Moulton) Moulton was doing research on the matter of the RfC and was trying to find draft copies. He did a special:prefix search for pages that start with "User:Filll" which is an entirely reasonable way to find subpages, after all. He found a page that was the user page of a user named "User:Fill John Doe" (where John Doe is actually a different name... perhaps someone alleges that name is Filll's???) and recorded it. That page existed at that time. It subsequently has been deleted. But Moulton's mistake was to not look in the history of that page and see that it was a page created by an SPA trying to out Filll, and then blanked by an admin. That's something not everyone would know to do. Therefore I think this block is bad, and the locking of pages is also bad. I ask that it be overturned. ++Lar: t/c 20:46, 15 June 2008 (UTC)}}
	Lar's request still has not been reviewed by an impartial panel. I am once again requesting an impartial review of what Lar has clearly identified as a "bad block" &mdash; a block clearly designed to silence a witness supplying valid testimony to an RfC, in response to interrogatories posted by the very party who then sought to have me blocked and my testimony expunged.|decline=This is going to be a limited review. I really don't have the time or inclination to understand the complete circumstances around your ban/block, and given that you have request arbitration in the past and had it rejected, I think it's reasonable to suggest that if you want this status reviewed you're going to have to email an Arbcom member and ask that they consider your case again. This is too complex for this process, and has to go through Arbcom.
	You were unblocked temporarily with limited latitude: , to merge your accounts via SUL and clean up your userspace. This trouble about revealing personal information came up when you used that latitude to respond to point in an RFC that you really shouldn't have been responding to. Whether you revealed personal info via an honest mistake is a bit beside the point. The point is, you are blocked anyway, and you went beyond the limited bounds for what you were unblocked for.
	So let's take this from scratch. Was Blueboy's action appropriate? Maybe or maybe not, but Lar has commented on it publicly, and that's about as far as it needs to go. Now to focus on more relevant things: do we unblock you? I think the answer is a very clear no -- your real block was not reversed and you have done what you were unblocked to do. If you still have user space cleanup left to do... not to be insensitive, but I don't really care. You're indef blocked, you are probably going to stay indef blocked, you can download all the material yourself anyway, what does it matter?
	Finally, do I reprotect your user talk page? I don't think it's necessary at the moment, but if you make any attacks here or if you make repeated ungrantable requests for unblock, that can always change. ]]<sup>]</sup> 14:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)}}
	] (]) 00:31, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
	:In responding to my request for a high-level review of the actions of Blueboy96, you wrote:
	<blockquote>
	{{cquote|This trouble about revealing personal information came up when you used that latitude to respond to point in an RFC that you really shouldn't have been responding to.}}
	</blockquote>
	:I don't understand your theory that I should not have been responding to ] that he posted at RfC/ID.
	:Filll's Question #5 went directly to what did or did not transpire in the course of the correspondence he initiated last August with Alexandra Kahn, Press Liaison of the MIT Media Lab, and with ], the subject of the BLP over which I had contested portions of the content as demonstrably false and defamatory, in violation of ] (Do No Harm).
	:The only person who could respond to Filll's Question #5 at RfC/ID would be someone who had been a party to that correspondence. There were only four parties to the correspondence to which Filll's Question #5 referred: Filll, Alexandra Kahn, Rosalind Picard, and myself. Therefore it was both expected (and incumbent) that I would respond with the evidence from that correspondence, demonstrating that the premise of his question was patently and disprovably false.
	:Rather than accept that testimony as conclusive, Filll and his allied editors from the WikiProject on Intelligent Design that the correspondence Filll had referred to identified him as the correspondent, and ]. Well of course the correspondence identified him as the correspondent. How could it be otherwise?
	:Finally, please note that I requested a ''high-level review''. If you are not in a position to perform the functions of a high-level reviewer, then I would request that you recuse yourself from responding to my request for a high-level review, and pass the duty along to someone who is both suitably positioned and who has the time to carefully examine the case.
	:] (]) 16:06, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
	::My point is this, boiled down. You were still under an indef block that was temporarily lifted so you could use the Single-User Login feature. So whether or not Blueboy's block was for the right reason, you should be blocked ''now'' because you've unified your accounts with SUL, which is why your block was temporarily lifted. So that is my high-level review of what it is reasonable for you to request here. As for a "higher-level review" feel free to email arbcom. If you start making unreasonable demands here, though, I think we'll have to lock down your talk page again. ]]<sup>]</sup> 21:01, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
	:::There is a reason why running to ArbCom a third time is ''not'' the correct move at this time. On May 15th, Giggy initiated a discussion at ] calling for a community review of my status. During that community-wide discussion, Lar, Sam Korn and others examined the circumstances of ] and the subsequent Indef-Block and found them to be a sham. In the midst of that discussion, in which the community was deeply divided, Ryan Postlethwaite took the initiative on May 25th to file a new , asking ArbCom to resolve the 10-day old impasse at ]. Three days later, on May 28th, to the community with these remarks:
	<blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>
	{{quotation|1=<H4></H4>
	* Recuse. Past experience prejudices me strongly in this matter. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 01:42, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
	* Reject (or, at least, hold off pending the discussions that Kim and Lar appear to be having). ] ] 12:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	* To answer some questions I have to say that I consider ] as an indefinitely blocked user. This means that Moulton can be banned, unblocked or remain blocked. Now, since discussions have reached a developed stage, let's wait for the outcome of the discussions with Kim and Lar. -- ] - <small>]</small> 18:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	*Reject. Along with James, I think we should allow admin discussion, which is the proper way to handle such matters, to run its full course. ] (]) 20:23, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
	*Reject for now. ] (]:]) 03:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
	* Decline, per James and Charles. In response to Lar, a community ban requires a clear consensus. ] ] 15:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)}}
	</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>
	:::Nothing much has changed, except that ] from the English Misplaced Pages for reasons that may or may not have been influenced by aspects of this case. ArbCom clearly wants the community to finish the stalled review at ], while admins such as yourself want me to kick it back upstairs to ArbCom. From where I stand, the English Misplaced Pages is in a state of paralysis on the substantive issues which surface in my case.
	:::So once again, I am asking the admins to do what ArbCom expressly directed them to do last May, which is to conscientiously and dutifully complete the community-wide review which Giggy initiated at ] back in mid-May.
	:::] (]) 22:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
	(<---)Moulton, we are all volunteers. As far as I can tell, no one is ''motivated'' to volunteer their time to do what you just asked for. You can request all you like (just do not use a template to request as some admin will feel you are abusing it and will protect this page from edits if you do), but so far you have not motivated. People do not willingly waste their time on things they do not enjoy. You need a better strategy. Misplaced Pages has an infinite number of things that need doing. See the below for a sample. Lots of people want the volunteers to spend time on what they think is important. Some people are successful at motivating others to contribute time to ''their'' priorities and some are not. There is no rule that any admin must do anything. An admin can pick and choose how they will spend their volunteer time. Just like any non-admin like you and me. ] (]) 09:50, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
	::Several admins have now adopted Ryan Postlethwaite's view of last May that the impasse is too problematic, and issues too convoluted for the admins to handle. This faction is urging that the case go back to ArbCom at this point. Before taking that step, I want to give the admins one last chance to decide if they want to tackle the issues in their own chambers. If they all say they are throwing up their hands, then the case clearly is ready to be kicked back upstairs to ArbCom. —] (]) 15:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
	:Ok that aside, Moulton, I do see your point. I feel that since some admins feel strongly that you should remain blocked (although some do feel strongly that you should be given a second chance), I would have to discuss with other admins, which means another community discussion. Endless community discussions are pointless, but this most recent one may have been de-railed by the incident you were blocked for. However, I don't feel comfortable moving forward with this until I have a better idea what you are offering. If you are unblocked, what steps will you take to steer clear of trouble? What kind of editing do you intend to do? ]]<sup>]</sup> 14:45, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
	::It's not so much ''another'' community discusion as a ''resumption'' of the ] last May. If the community discussion is genuinely stalled (and it may well be), then I have it on good authority (via recent E-Mail) that ArbCom would now be more inclined to take the unresolved conundrums out of the hands of the admins and wrestle with the issues in their own chambers. My feeling is that I don't want to short-circuit the options of the admins to tackle these issues head-on, and I frankly don't see how they can do that efficaciously if I am .
	::Since you were not a recipient of the recent round of E-Mail with other officials, permit me to briefly quote what I said to them regarding your conerns, above...
	<blockquote><blockquote>
	{{cquote|I do not believe that it would make any sense for me to consider resuming editing of mainspace articles as long as the issues I have raised continue to fester and remain unresolved. ''Which is why I am not requesting to be unblocked for the purpose of mainspace editing.'' Rather I am seeking to be unblocked for the purpose of preparing and submitting evidence and testimony to the half-dozen open and unresolved AN's, RfC's, and RfAr's where I am already named as an involved party or where I have been ] with evidence and testimony on the ].}}
	</blockquote></blockquote>
	::In order to steer clear of trouble, I had made the ] here:
	<blockquote><blockquote>
	{{cquote|I would request that counsel familiar with Misplaced Pages policies and practices be appointed by mutual consent to act as presenter of evidence on my behalf to the various unresolved proceedings now underway or stalled in the wake of precipitous actions last month by adversarial admins with whom I have ongoing and unresolved issues.}}
	</blockquote></blockquote>
	::Does that satisfactorily address your questions, concerns, and reservations?
	::Also, if you would like to review the recent E-Mail exchange, please respond to my earlier E-Mail to you, and I will forward to you the correspondence I had with the officials whose E-Mail addresses I had at hand.
	::] (]) 15:16, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
	:::Feel free to send me the e-mail exchange (I'll respond to your email), but right now I am very strongly disinclined to even reopen a discussion: even before the personal info incident (which I don't hold you blameless for, BTW, even if it wasn't as bad as it sounded at first) the discussion wasn't heading in a clear direction. I frankly don't see what Misplaced Pages has to gain from unblocking you if you aren't even intending to edit articles, and I don't even see that your unblock would necessarily be beneficial (from the ''community'''s perspective) to those processes. If you can explain this please go ahead. ]]<sup>]</sup> 16:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
	::::I'll send it to your G-Mail address. What the English Misplaced Pages has to gain is an opportunity (which will no doubt recur again with someone else in my role) to address and resolve systemic dysfunctionality and endemic corruption. The present regulatory paradigm is manifestly toxic and unsustainable. I have no idea whether the English Misplaced Pages will elect to evolve to a sustainable grounded in . Perhaps not. It's up to the community (essentially the admins) to make that call. The decision is entirely in your hands. —] (]) 20:16, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
	''Update:'' Mango Juice (and others) have exchanged a number of messages with me in E-Mail with a view toward converging on a concise set of reasons why the issues arising in this case are best addressed by ArbCom rather than going back to ], ], or to a new (and potentially bitter and politically divisive) rehash elsewhere in Misplaced Pages Project Space. Since the reasons are nuanced, subtle, and couched in carefully chosen terms of art, I am awaiting consent from Mango Juice to variously quote, excerpt, or paraphrase the reasons he has offered for consideration. My preference would be for Mango Juice and I to jointly release our E-Mail conversations so there can be no confusion over the reasons he proposes, or how they are phrased, paraphrased, highlighted, or interpeted. Note, also, that among my correspondents in E-Mail, Lar and Giggy have asked to be recused from further participation in the back-channel E-Mail discussions, even when their prior roles in these negotiations are being discussed and/or characterized. —] (]) 13:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
	The following is the text of my email that I think is relevant here.
	{{quote|
	I've had a careful read through the correspondence and the discussion. I feel that it's not my position to make judgements about your editing, as I (1) haven't really looked into it, and (2) should not be making declarations as if my opinion is the only one that matters. However, I do feel qualified now to comment on the debate itself.
	First point: the ANI discussion about you started on May 15th and petered out by the end of May. While it's quite likely the debate died down because, in part, the stub paragraph pointing to it was archived, this is par for the course in all discussions of this sort. Furthermore, the possible mistake that got you blocked did not really impact *that* discussion, because it happened too late.
	Second point: the RFC has also petered out, especially as regards blocking or unblocking you, which wasn't what a lot of the comments seemed to focus on. But a lot of people said things on either side, and I'm sure you're aware you had some support.
	Third point: in the ANI discussion, quite a number of editors expressed concern about unblocking you because you aren't asking for permission to go back to actual editing. It seems this whole business is about whether you were treated properly, whether the circumstances of the block were fair or not, and about Misplaced Pages's general policies and approach.
	Given all this, I think it's fair to say that there is not an actionable consensus to unblock you, and the discussion is basically over. So, I'm denying your request to be unblocked in order to participate in those discussions: no point, they're dead. I also think it's fair to say that the community would by and large support your unblock if you were to make any kind of reasonable gesture about the situation. If you look at Sam Korn's comment in particular, he proposes unblocking you *purely* to right a wrong. Whether or not we should, I don't know.. but I can tell that's the crux of the issue. Since that hasn't changed, I don't want to open a new discussion either, I just think it would do no good, and it might make things even worse in the future to have another failed discussion. I have a lot of experience that backs this up -- debates as big as yours that lead nowhere don't do any better when repeated, unless things actually change.
	My advice is that you need to resolve that point. Before you request unblocking again in any way, you need to try to figure what Misplaced Pages stands to gain from you being unblocked. Right now, unblocking you without any gesture from you about your behavior or even a request to return to editing is politically impossible: even very prominent Wikipedians like Lar and Sam Korn are not willing to take action on their own, because they know that a part of the community, albeit one they disagree with, opposes your block and those people cannot possibly be satisfied with your response. If you were to make this gesture it would probably tip the balance towards unblocking you. And in that case I would be happy to open a new discussion and we can see where it goes.
	Barring that, you should try Arbcom again. Explain that the community discussion the rejection requested failed to produce an outcome, even though a lot of respected editors spoke out in favor of you. Explain that you really are banned: you are indef blocked but no admin will feel comfortable enough to unblock you on their own, thus meeting the definition of a community ban.}} ]]<sup>]</sup> 14:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
	:Thank you for posting that, MJ. Here are my responses to that message (copied ''verbatim'' from E-Mail)...
	::<Font Color=Navy>''I've had a careful read through the correspondence and the discussion...''</Font> — With respect to my edits to mainspace articles, there is nothing to judge. I made very few edits to mainspace articles (back in August of 2007, during my first week of active editing). The WikiClique on ID reverted them all, without exception. After a week, I stopped making mainspace edits and turned to talk page discussions, instead. A week later, Filll and ConfuciusOrnis filed their RfC against me, and the rest is .
	::<Font Color=Navy>''First point''</Font> — Yes, I was responding to Filll's insistent interrogatories at RfC/ID when Toddst1 swooped in with ''Kristalnacht'' on everything in my user space whilst Blueboy96 did the honors with his chilly blast of Zyklon B.
	::<Font Color=Navy>''Second point''</Font> — It's not really about blocking or unblocking me. It's about whether the English Misplaced Pages is going to evolve to a more sustainable regulatory practice grounded in ethics rather than the current ''ad hoc'' ochlocracy.
	::<Font Color=Navy>''Third point''</Font> — In the decade just before I was born, a journalist asked Albert Einstein if the rise of right-wing politics in Central Europe had slowed down the pace of science there. Einstein replied, "The pace of science has not slowed down. It's ground to a complete halt."
	::<Font Color=Navy>''Given all this...''</Font> — The crux of the issue, as you see it, is that Wikipedians are uncertain if there is any merit in righting a wrong.
	::<Font Color=Navy>''My advice is that...''</Font> — What Misplaced Pages stands to gain is the reputation of recognizing a mistake and righting a wrong.
	::To do so would be to demonstrate that Wikipedians take their ethics seriously. I would enthusiastically applaud such a demonstration.
	::The English Misplaced Pages should not unblock me unless the community wishes to dispel the perception that Wikipedians are indifferent to correcting errors and righting wrongs. In that case, my gesture would be to display a countenance of chagrin.
	::I don't know any individual or organization that is 100% error free. What's important is how an individual or an organization operates when an error is discovered to have occurred. Does the organization ignore it, hide it, deny it, cover it up, and summarily dismiss the referees who blow the whistle? Is that a sustainable practice?
	::<Font Color=Navy>''Barring that, you should try Arbcom again...''</Font> — I'm going to let it ride for about a week, to give people more time to come to their senses and to reflect on the crux of the issue as you have framed it.
	::Then, if no one steps forward to play a leadership role within the community of admins, I'll enact my next move along the lines being suggested.
	::Thanks for taking the time to review, reflect, and think things over. Peace be with you, MJ.
	::Regards,
	::Barry
	::--
	::The Process of Enlightenment Works In Mysterious Plays.
	:] (]) 20:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
	:::And, in the midst of this we have Moulton e-mailing, unbidden, a group of WP editors using their real names in the e-mail. Also included were members of WR. Is this another attempt at outing, is it harassment, is it something else? Whatever it is, it is unacceptable. ]<sup>]</sup> 21:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
	:::: Hi Jim. I don't think this is Moulton's intent, annoying and all as it may be. I'm on the list myself and he already uses my full name repeatedly on this page. I don't think he means it to be 'outty' per se. Moulton, in future, if you '''must''' email to a group of people, please use the BCC line. I know this makes group discussions difficult but many people are concerned about their privacy here - ] <sup>]</sup> 23:05, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
	:::::Whatever his intention, he revealed the real names of several editors when he sent me a copy of that email to me ''using the Misplaced Pages mail system''. That is utterly unacceptable. ] (]) 00:01, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
	Would you gentleman like to negotiate ? —] (]) 00:53, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
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	* ] or give ] on some articles.
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	* Can you use ] tools? Help make ].
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	* Let ] suggest pages for you to improve.
	* Update pages with old (ref or note template) citations to the ].
	* ] and help improving ].
	*Frequent ] user, or a ]? Visit ] to join in on their latest collaboration.
	== Fix-up projects ==
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	Not sure where to report a certain type of problem with article content? If it exists, it's probably listed at ].
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	=== Misplaced Pages:Guide to appealing blocks ===
	I just read ] for the first time. It is quite good. What do you think of it? ] (]) 10:04, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
	:It's worse than useless because it assumes that all blocks are carried out in good faith. Filll was not acting in good faith when he requested intervention. Moreover, the responses of ] and ] far exceeded anything Filll requested with respect to his concern about exposure of his Yahoo Screen Name. There is no evidence that his Yahoo Screen Name, which he openly discloses off-Wiki, bears any meaningful relationship to his real life identity. —] (]) 11:33, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
	::Well, I guess you need to accept that our processes for unblocking are not processes that will satisfy you. We don't seem to ''have'' processes that will satisfy you. We do have out of process provisions however. As mentioned, you can email any arbcom member. I doubt that will do you any good, but you could try. You can also pick up the phone and talk to Jimbo. It is part of his established role to act when out of process things need doing for the benefit of the community. However, the problem here is that you don't make the case that what you want is for the benefit of the community or the encyclopedia. If you successfully make such a case, Jimbo will be receptive to it, I am sure. Consider what would satisfy you. It seems to me that you want revenge/punishment. That is against the ethical principles you say you agree with. If not revenge/punishment, then what? Due process? Justice? This is a web-site. Not a government. Perhaps what you want can best be achieved at WikiVersity. If what you want is to create learning resources that benefit people who wish to learn about the ethical management of encyclopedias and websites, then that is the right place. You don't seem well suited for WikiPedia ]. I could be wrong, of course. Perhaps you and Misplaced Pages will be better suited for each other after ethical learning resources have been created and have influenced Misplaced Pages so that it is better managed? Never can tell. Misplaced Pages is continuing to evolve. ] (]) 13:11, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
	I am not satisfied by systems that lack Due Process or any functional System of Justice. The ] of these fundamental features on the English Language Misplaced Pages was recently noticed by Jimbo Wales. On June 29th, Wales ]:
	{{quotation|I have encouraged the ArbCom to move slowly and thoughtfully. Gather all the facts. Don't have a public argument with each other that confuses people or gives trolls the opportunity to turn more people against each other. Figure out what went wrong, correct it, apologize where beneficial to do so, and build a better framework going forward. You don't get all that done in a weekend, and you don't further that kind of thoughtful and mature process with a hasty statement. I think the important statement has been made: no secret trials, and '''no convictions without giving the opportunity to present a defense. That's just basic justice''', and I will overturn any ArbCom decision to the contrary. (Although, I should point out, there is ZERO chance of the ArbCom doing this in the first place.)--] (]) 14:20, 29 June 2008 (UTC)}}
	It is an establish precept in the Peacemaking Movement that "If you want Peace, work for Justice." The lack of a functional system of justice ensures that the English Language Misplaced Pages will remain hopelessly ensnared in a perpetual state of unpeace. That state of unpeace manifests itself as recurring and .
	As you well know from the ] I have written on Wikiversity (and ), I favor over ].
	] (]) 15:10, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
	:Well then, the issue becomes one of crafting policy proposals that will, if accepted by the community, provide for those processes. Do you have any such policy proposals in mind that can be implemented with a 100% volunteer community with the goals and values of this community? I do not know what such a policy proposal would consist of. What do you recommend? I have the feeling that the existing community prefers pseudonymous rights over justice - in other words, the right to come back as a new avatar over the right to have their current avatar be given justice. Hmmm ... perhaps something could be worked out where people can choose real person rights (justice) or avatar rights (no "outing") - but not both. We have known about the conflict between our COI and privacy policies for some time. Maybe something along these lines would be helpful. ] (]) 15:37, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
	::Yes. On September 5th, 2007, I proposed to the editors with whom I was then engaged that Misplaced Pages ]. I recommended it then, before you and I met. I recently ], and I as the most sensible way for Misplaced Pages to emerge from the ] that it has lamentably become, and which . ] (]) 15:55, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
	:::I don't recall you coming up with actual workable details that would not be a completely different community. Too big a change is not going to be accepted by ''this'' community. The database can be forked by anyone and anyone can form their own community to work on that fork of wikipedia. Everyone agreeing to use their real name will not happen in this community for example. Having every person who wishes to edit, sign something, will not be agreed to by ''this'' community. Maybe I'm not understanding you; maybe you could identify some small steps we can take in the right direction; maybe in the end, you will need to accept that this community values different things than you do. Can you name some small specific policy proposal that would not require a complete restructuring of the community? Also, we tried Nupedia. It did not work. ] (]) 16:29, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
	::::Of course it would be a radically transformed community. A functional social contract transforms a hopelessly dysfunctional community fraught with mistrust and endemic corruption rooted in an anachronistic and drama-ridden rules and sanctions regime into a functional community built on trust, community learning, and a more enlightened and graceful regulatory process. There is a small step that individuals can elect to take (it doesn't require a community policy). That step is to embrace the paradigm of a learning community (as , and in contrast to a political community). —] (]) 20:42, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
	(<---)Apparently you seek revolution rather than evolution. Further you seek a community that values your values over its current values. I see no hope of success here at Misplaced Pages for this goal; but I do believe that your efforts at WikiVersity have merit. See for a clue to the values of the core members. Freedom. Freedom. Freedom. We are not leftist. We are libertarian, as a whole. America was not founded on the ideal that individuals should be able to own everything and screw the public. It was based on Public Ownership (sovereignty by the people) of the republic. The rich have tried to pervert citizenship into consumer-ship (ownership by the people into ownership by the rich). They have sold the lie of a free marketplace that in operation is socialism for the rich. The free culture movement of which Wikimedia is a part, is a useful counterbalance to the extremes of proprietary ownership. Balance is needed. We help with that balance. ] (]) 04:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
	:I seek a ''sustainable'' community. Corrupt communities are not sustainable; they eat themselves from the inside out. I seek an . Misplaced Pages is not an Orenda Community; it is not a community on the right path, because it is neither on a sustainable path nor on an ethical path. Misplaced Pages is ''not'' libertarian. It is an unbecoming ''clobbertarian'' puppet show like a banal reprise of Punch and Judy. A community on a corrupt path cannot survive, except for a brief time as a farcical comedy. Evidently neither can it save itself or be saved. And that, to my mind, is a lamentable tragedy. The balance of terror among intoxicated clobbertarians is not a sustainable balance, because it is not a harmonious balance. Bad Karma may be in near perfect balance, but it's an '''', tottering, and ultimately pointless and dispiriting balance. Corruption is counterbalanced by ethics. Wikipedians cannot be coerced to adopt an ethical stance. It's an entirely free choice. The is the liberty to wisely choose, of one's own conscious and conscientious free will, to ]. —] (]) 13:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
	===Whistleblower's Guide to Exposing Corruption===
	WAS, what do you make of ] on the talk page of Blueboy96?
	<blockquote>
	{{quotation|1=<H4>]</H4>
	Since he was 86'd he's been republishing the same links outing user Filll that got him blocked over at Wikiversity and warring to keep them up: Clearly he hasn't learned anything. Wanna guess who's helping revert removals of the links there? Same person trying to get him back here: ] (]) 00:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)}}
	</blockquote>
	:The first reference goes to your ] message here, and the remaining three go to diffs at our ].
	:Note also that ] since then, and his siamese twin, ] since July 19th.
	:] (]) 17:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
	::I think people are keeping each other informed with links to what is going on. Misunderstandings by everyone abound and providing links is a wonderful way to let everyone make up their own mind as to what is happening. All in all, everyone being kept informed is a wonderful thing. Let us rejoice! ] (]) 20:30, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
	:::Did I get blocked at Wikiversity, WAS? I have no recollection of that ever happening. Is there something amiss with my memory? —] (]) 20:38, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
	::::No. I had to read that twice myself:
	::::"Since he was 86'd he's been republishing the same links outing user Filll that got him blocked over at Wikiversity and warring to keep them up ."
	::::] (]) 20:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
	:::::Good grief. And this person is supposed to be a veteran editor of English language encyclopedia articles? —] (]) 21:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
	(<---)You put great care into your interpersonal discussions to ensure proper formatting, spelling and so forth. Others don't; saving such efforts for actual articles. Some think it selfish to force readers to waste their time instead of the author of the comment putting in time doing it right. But when the comment is on a user talk page, it can be argued that the intended reader is only one person and that argument does not apply. In any case, it is unfair to conclude too much from that one comment. ] (]) 09:45, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
	:When it comes to inferring or concluding what's on the mind of my adversaries, I confess I frequently draw a blank. —] (]) 14:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

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Latest revision as of 17:15, 12 February 2009

This account has been blocked indefinitely from editing Misplaced Pages. (info: block log • contributions • deleted contributions • page moves • current autoblocks)