Revision as of 02:47, 4 November 2005 editFred Bauder (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users46,115 edits →Wbfl← Previous edit | Revision as of 04:20, 4 November 2005 edit undoCausa sui (talk | contribs)Administrators24,854 edits →Request block on Admin [] for violating page protection policy on []Next edit → | ||
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Blocking is preventative, not punitive. Requesting a block for an isolated instance of behavior of this type is a non-starter, especially since so much time has passed. '''''<font color="green">]</font>'''''<font color="green">]</font><font color="purple">]</font> 22:40, 3 November 2005 (UTC) | Blocking is preventative, not punitive. Requesting a block for an isolated instance of behavior of this type is a non-starter, especially since so much time has passed. '''''<font color="green">]</font>'''''<font color="green">]</font><font color="purple">]</font> 22:40, 3 November 2005 (UTC) | ||
I'm not really sure if this warrants a response, but just so it's perfectly clear to anyone who may be confused, here's why Silverback's objection about my violation of the blocking policy is entirely baseless. Silverback charges that I violated the blocking policy by reverting away from ]'s preferred version in a content dispute over ]. This is the relevant point of the ]: | |||
*''Admins should not protect pages which they have been involved with (involvement includes making substantive edits to the page or expressing opinions about the article on the talk page). Admin powers are not editor privileges—admins should only act as servants to the user community at large.'' | |||
Silverback is perfectly correct in his assertion that admins should not use protection to preserve their preferred versions of articles in content disputes. However, I did not revert away from Ultramarine's version because I preferred the content in the other version: '''because I have not read either version'''. I have no idea which version has the better content, nor do I particularly care to. I have never edited that article for content and I haven't the slightest interest in doing so. It is quite literally impossible for this page protection to be anything but an effort to end a stale revert war of epic proportions. This brings us to the second point. | |||
Silverback makes a more substantive claim, which is that I ignored this part of the blocking policy: | |||
*''In addition, admins should avoid favoring one version of the article over another, unless one version is vandalism.'' | |||
To this, I plead guilty as charged; I did willfully ignore that part of the blocking policy, and I ignored it because I felt the situation called for me to do so. Rather than revert while protecting, I could have waited for someone else to revert, and then protect the article, and in so doing avoid all appearance of impropriety: but I feel that would not have been necessary. Ultramarine is one of the most stubborn, persistent, and arrogant Misplaced Pages editors I have encountered. I found no justification for protecting his preferred version simply because it was the version that happened to be up at the time. If another administrator feels that I was in the wrong about this, I welcome them to revert to Ultramarine's version, but I strongly urge you to leave the article protected. --] ] 03:45, 4 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
By the way, my RFA was . --] ] 04:20, 4 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
==Trolling, personal attacks: User:66.68.73.149== | ==Trolling, personal attacks: User:66.68.73.149== |
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Request block on Admin User:Ryan Delaney for violating page protection policy on Criticisms of communism
Ryan Delaney admits he purposely reverted this article when applying page protection, even though it wasn't a vandalism case. He has made all kinds of excuses which still add up to a violation of the rules more serious than a 3RR for instance, because he is an admin. See his talk page, my talk page, and the unprotection requests for detail.--Silverback 18:23, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
- This page is already the subject of a request for arbitration. Protecting the page may spare us the need to enter a temporary injunction in that case. It's quite clear (to me) that the major warring parties are not making any real progress toward a consensus version of the article. Kelly Martin (talk) 02:46, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- I'd like to point out that I would very much prefer a temp. injunction to protection. It's like the choice between 3RR blocks and protection in an edit war. In my mind, blocks are always better, as they target the offender, and leave the article open to editing instead. We are a wiki, and protection is harmful to everyone, even the ones being good. It is much more harmful than an injunction which only targets the ones acting up. Dmcdevit·t 03:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- It's my impression that this case is nearly fully cooked and should be ready to go to voting soon; trying to put in an injunction may just delay resolution of the case. Kelly Martin (talk) 03:41, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- I'd like to point out that I would very much prefer a temp. injunction to protection. It's like the choice between 3RR blocks and protection in an edit war. In my mind, blocks are always better, as they target the offender, and leave the article open to editing instead. We are a wiki, and protection is harmful to everyone, even the ones being good. It is much more harmful than an injunction which only targets the ones acting up. Dmcdevit·t 03:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- This page is already the subject of a request for arbitration. Protecting the page may spare us the need to enter a temporary injunction in that case. It's quite clear (to me) that the major warring parties are not making any real progress toward a consensus version of the article. Kelly Martin (talk) 02:46, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Kelly Martin beat me to it. This article is subject to arbitration, so Silverback coming here was um, not really the brightest idea ever. Is the AMA still active at all? Having advocates around for this kind of procedural thing would save people a LOT of embarresment. Kim Bruning 03:45, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- Yep, were still around. Sam Spade 03:50, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- See Misplaced Pages:AMA Advocates accepting inquiries. What interest did reverting the article prior to protection serve? Sam Spade 03:53, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- Ensuring protection on m:The Wrong Version, most likely. --Carnildo 04:53, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- Ryan Delaney violated policy by deciding which was the right version and reverting to it. This is the type of policy violation which gives the impression of abuse of powers, probably because it is an actual abuse of powers. Carnildo thinks he is clever by citing the dismissive and mocking "The Wrong Version", but this is just the type of abusive behavior that "The Wrong Version" implies doesn't really exist or is just a matter of point of view. Ryan's behavior is an outright violation of policy, that I doubt "The Wrong Version" intended to take lightly. His behavior is an embarrassment. I tried to find the archive of his adminship vote, to see if he pledged not to abuse his powers. Hubris and adminship do not mix well.--Silverback 09:32, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- We are not going to entertain a demand to desysop an admin for one purported violation of the protection policy where the violation in question appears to have been in good faith. Let's check the outrage at the door and discuss this reasonably, ok? Hyperbolic screaming does not benefit your cause. Kelly Martin (talk) 12:54, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- I never requested desysop'ing, and don't mistake persistance in pointing out hypocrisy and abuse for screaming. I wouldn't think more than a block for a couple days would be in order even if he refuses to correct his abuse. Protecting the article was a judgement call, I think it was unnecessary, but I can accept differences in such judgement calls. However, his revert was completely in violation of protection policy and was a POV prejudgement of the ARBCOM result. I'd be satisfied if he would put the article back in the version that he should have left it in. If he refuses to do so, then another admin should either perform the revert to the version that was in place at the time of the protection, or remove the protection completely and block Delaney, perhaps for 48 hours (this is more serious than a 3RR). Although if the admin just took the proper action in regard to the article, and did not block Delaney unless he put up a fuss. That would at least correct the violation that has been done. The only reason I can see for demanding more severe action is if Ryan resists attempts to correct his mistake in judgement, or if he himself stated when he was soliciting votes for his adminship that he would hold himself to a higher standard, such as never abuse his powers. While Ryan's actions represent an abuse of the powers entrusted to him, this does not approach the extent and severity of abuses that resulted in 172's last arbcom case for instance. What is really disappointing is the deference and failure to correct his actions not only by him, but by the admin community as a whole.--Silverback 13:51, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- The article was reverted back and forth between the two versions 6 times in the 24 hours prior to protection. As such, I do not believe it was in the least bit relevant which particular version happened to be on top at the precise moment of protection. Delaney could have simply waited a few more hours until the next inevitable revert. Or he could have tossed a coin to decide which version to protect. For all we know, maybe he did. I am no fan of protection myself, but your request that Delaney must "put the article back in the version that he should have left it in" seems little more than a thinly veiled demand to see the article protected with The Right Version on top. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 20:00, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- You're right, it shouldn't have mattered which version was on top, but it did to Delaney, so he should not have been the one to impose protection, and he should not have reverted to the version he wanted. He abused his powers. I take it from what you say, that you would have no problem if the page was reverted to the version that he should have left in place at the time he imposed protection.--Silverback 22:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Blocking is preventative, not punitive. Requesting a block for an isolated instance of behavior of this type is a non-starter, especially since so much time has passed. android79 22:40, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm not really sure if this warrants a response, but just so it's perfectly clear to anyone who may be confused, here's why Silverback's objection about my violation of the blocking policy is entirely baseless. Silverback charges that I violated the blocking policy by reverting away from User:Ultramarine's preferred version in a content dispute over Criticisms of communism. This is the relevant point of the Misplaced Pages:Blocking policy:
- Admins should not protect pages which they have been involved with (involvement includes making substantive edits to the page or expressing opinions about the article on the talk page). Admin powers are not editor privileges—admins should only act as servants to the user community at large.
Silverback is perfectly correct in his assertion that admins should not use protection to preserve their preferred versions of articles in content disputes. However, I did not revert away from Ultramarine's version because I preferred the content in the other version: because I have not read either version. I have no idea which version has the better content, nor do I particularly care to. I have never edited that article for content and I haven't the slightest interest in doing so. It is quite literally impossible for this page protection to be anything but an effort to end a stale revert war of epic proportions. This brings us to the second point.
Silverback makes a more substantive claim, which is that I ignored this part of the blocking policy:
- In addition, admins should avoid favoring one version of the article over another, unless one version is vandalism.
To this, I plead guilty as charged; I did willfully ignore that part of the blocking policy, and I ignored it because I felt the situation called for me to do so. Rather than revert while protecting, I could have waited for someone else to revert, and then protect the article, and in so doing avoid all appearance of impropriety: but I feel that would not have been necessary. Ultramarine is one of the most stubborn, persistent, and arrogant Misplaced Pages editors I have encountered. I found no justification for protecting his preferred version simply because it was the version that happened to be up at the time. If another administrator feels that I was in the wrong about this, I welcome them to revert to Ultramarine's version, but I strongly urge you to leave the article protected. --Ryan Delaney 03:45, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
By the way, my RFA was here. --Ryan Delaney 04:20, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Trolling, personal attacks: User:66.68.73.149
This editor and his various IPs has identified himself as DaveScot from the uncommondescent.com blog and been engaged in trolling, personal attacks at Talk:Intelligent design over the last week or so. He has been warned before but is continuing to do so. Guettarda and I are trying to keep him in check, but he's becoming increasingly disruptive and nasty. The following IPs are associated with this editor:
- 24.27.43.61 (talk · contribs)
- 66.69.216.76 (talk · contribs)
- 66.68.73.149 (talk · contribs)
FeloniousMonk 20:12, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Vandal/sock user: "Lets all vandalise Misplaced Pages together"
I noticed in the user creation log a user named Lets all vandalise Misplaced Pages together. No contribs yet, but best keep an eye on it. The Hokkaido Crow 01:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- After checking the user creation log you should check the block log too... :-) -- Curps 01:04, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- Clearly a bad choice for a username. You don't need to be careful with names so blatant like this one. - Mgm| 05:56, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Mea culpa!
See WP:ANI#Double-checking_DG - there's two edits there from the two usernames that are very unlikely to have been from the same physical location. I still think it's pretty clear they're closely linked and in close communication, but they aren't in fact the same person. I've unblocked TheChief.
You will be pleased to know that there are likely to be five more CheckUser users soonish, so finding someone to independently check highly disputed results like this will be feasible - David Gerard 12:26, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- Kelly Martin points out in the above link that it's possible to use widely-separated IPs, e.g. via a VPN. (I myself could edit legally using IPs on three continents.) But I still no longer feel safe in this one - David Gerard 12:47, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- For those concerned about CheckUser policy - please see m:Proposed CheckUser Policy and m:Talk:Proposed CheckUser Policy. m:Help:CheckUser is the user manual, with half of it being how not to break the privacy policy. Voting for CheckUser is as unlikely to happen as voting for root access - David Gerard 12:51, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Based on David Gerard's revised view that there is insufficient evidence of TheChief as a sockpuppet I have unprotected TheChief's user page and removed the sockpuppet notice. - Tεxτurε 15:35, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- Thank you, I missed that one - David Gerard 16:06, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- I would like to ask any users with lingering questions to please come to my talk page with them. I think the healthiest thing for the community is to talk about these issues and get them out in the open. TheChief (PowWow) 17:20, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Talk:George P. Bush
Yes, George P. Bush, the son of Jeb Bush. Besides that simple fact, the only other thing he is notable for is an incident in 1994 in which he drove over a girlfriend's lawn, broke in through a bedroom window, and got in an argument with her father, after which he drove off across the lawn. The event was notable enough to hit The Smoking Gun and has between 130 and 1300 Google hits, but an individual on the talk page tells me that if I dare to put it in the article, the user, Cuchullain, will "request arbitration". The text has been in the article for quite sometime, and only now is this user repeatedly deleting it. The fact that so new a user would refuse to discuss it any further, and instead go straight to "requesting arbitration" is not suprising, but I'm not sure how to handle this. It's obvious no discussion will alleviate it. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-11-3 19:20
I've looked at the problem. I would say "damn the torpedos" and put it in there. If he's silly enough to file an RFAr against you for that, then let him. It'll be promptly ignored. Linuxbeak | Talk 19:29, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
The user is also deleting from Jeb Bush, Jr. the following things: 1) his mug shot (instead opting for no photo), 2) the fact that his mother was of Mexican decent (no clue why), 3) the external links that link to his arrest reports, 4) the details of his arrests. I'm starting to think he's on the Bush payroll :) — BRIAN0918 • 2005-11-3 20:23
- Similar activity is also occurring at Columba Bush. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-11-3 20:25
- Speaking as an arb, I would think it just about certain it would be rejected at this stage. He's not that new - he's been doing lots of work on the wiki since February. Probably time for a bit of applied diplomacy, if you can think of some. e.g. don't start with saying he's pushing an agenda even if you think he is ;-) I've left a note on the article talk page to this effect.
- The AC has penalised people in the past for purging referenced information from pages, though that was a pathological case from a mission editor. In this one, the guy edits well elsewhere (I assume from the talk page conversations), so hopefully can be brought round - David Gerard 20:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I think you're referring to the Robert the Bruce case:
--Tony Sidaway 21:12, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Archive time again!
Could someone please archive old stuff from this page? It's getting really fat again ... - David Gerard 20:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- Done. I don't think I archived any active conversations, but if I did, just yell at me so I don't do it again.--Scïmïłar 23:30, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Sockpuppets to evade 3RR block
Greetings. A user is using multiple accounts (over a dozen so far) to make the same reversion to Iraqi insurgency. When he is blocked for 3RR violation, he creates another account and goes again. Check out the page history. I've previously filed complaints at Misplaced Pages:Vandalism_in_progress#Possible_Sockpuppets and Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RR#User:Hesketh_Fortescue_and_related_sockpuppets. (Please read that second link before blocking me or anyone else for violating the 3RR when reverting this user's changes - other admins have determined the sockpuppets' changes to be tantamount to simple vandalism, so the 3RR doesn't apply to those that revert him.)
Anyway, this user is nothing if not enthusiastic and diligent in his cause. I'm an admin, and I've blocked many of his incarnations, but I could use some help. Thanks, – Quadell 22:10, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- Can he/she/it be blocked by an IP or a range of IPs? Maybe it is worth to temporary protect the article? abakharev 22:23, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- Maybe protect it for a few days. That would be my next suggestion. I'll watchlist the page too. · Katefan0 22:33, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- If you protect it, then the vandal will go to an unwatched page. It is better to fix it by blocking the range than to push the vandal to an unseen page. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-11-3 22:38
- Maybe, maybe not. Is there any evidence that this person cares at all about other pages? If not, I'd be inclined to try a protection for a while. · Katefan0 22:44, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- If you protect it, then the vandal will go to an unwatched page. It is better to fix it by blocking the range than to push the vandal to an unseen page. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-11-3 22:38
- Maybe protect it for a few days. That would be my next suggestion. I'll watchlist the page too. · Katefan0 22:33, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- I'm not at all keen for this page to be protected - for any more than a few hours at a time. It is a high profile current event, and I recently removed the protection after three days. It is better to block the POV pushers if possible and if not just revert. This type of insistant warrior will have the page protected for months on end. If we give in to this we might as well have George W. Bush on permenant protection. It's a wiki. --Doc (?) 23:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- more suckpupeets User:Brain1890, User:Brain1980 and User:Brain8190 on the same page abakharev 02:22, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
- And User:Brain1809. I'm famous! — BRIAN0918 • 2005-11-4 02:23
This vandal is still going strong. Anyone care to help? — BRIAN0918 • 2005-11-4 02:43
Repossession and The Fight
Repossession (talk · contribs) continues to remove an article he has created (The Fight) from the copyvio log before the case has been settled. He has also removed the copyvio notice on the page and reverted the article to the copyvio text. Until now, I have been able to reinstate the copyvio notice and the log myself, but I can't remain online forever ;) I hope that one of the administrators will keep an eye on this article and this user (who btw. seems to be on a mission to blatantly plug, promote and advertise for artists and albums signed to a record label he claims to own, which seems like a misuse of Misplaced Pages namespace). Aecis 01:32, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
User:Oldstylecharm, User:Trever, and User:Nannegananneghan
I noticed an edit from Oldstylecharm (talk · contribs) in which he added a link to a website of poetry. It was not at all relevant to the article, so I reverted it. I looked through his contributions, and saw that he had added that particular website to several articles, but had made no content-edits. It seemed likely that he was the poet in question, or at least that he was trying to increase traffic to a particular website. I began to remove them all – a laborious task. After a while, I noticed that Trever (talk · contribs) was busy replacing them. His name had a red link, so it looked as if the account was very recently created. I looked at his contributions, and saw that he was not only replacing the spamlinks, but was going to pages I had recently edited, and was undoing all my edits – even on a talk page, twice, where I was answering a question from another user , and another talk page where I had simply added the {{unsigned}} templage and removed a blank line . It seems fairly obvious that Trever is a sockpuppet for Oldstylecharm, and that they are both in violation of Misplaced Pages policy.
I sent a message to both usertalk pages alerting them to the policy on spam. I also sent a message to Trever, and he replied that he wasn't Oldstylecharm – Guess what my name spelled backwards is?
I have just received a message from Nannegananneghan (talk · contribs) which is almost certainly related to the above.
Could an admin look into this, please? Ann Heneghan 01:54, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
- I've indef. blocked all 3 for spamming and innapropriate use of sockpuppets since there seem to be no actual edits to speak of, I'll also use rollback to revert all edits by them. Jtkiefer ----- 02:09, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Wbfl
I have blocked Wbfl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for 48 hours. He has been editwarring with Geni (talk · contribs) on Misplaced Pages talk:Administrative probation, see . I am putting this notice up as I was the target of the original attack. Fred Bauder 02:47, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
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