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Catalan-speaking countries Start‑class

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Chronological Archives
Archive 1
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country/state

Italy, France, Andorra, Spain....they can be called either countries or states. So let's just use both, luckily enough we can use them interchangeably. Mountolive _{group using a loop of another pop group} 22:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

True. Though if a compromise is to be reached, and you want to use both terms, I'd rather use "sovereign state" in the phrase and "country" as the label of the column. --the Dúnadan 22:29, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

That's fine with me, even though, if they can be used interchangeably, I dont get why you need it this way for a compromise to be reached...accusing others of political preferences is easy...

Whatever, as far as I'm concerned, you can go ahead with that change if it makes you feel better. Mountolive _{group using a loop of another pop group} 22:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

You may not know of our previous discussion regarding the use of "Spanish State" vs. "State" at Talk: Madrid (autonomous community). He opposed "Spanish State" based on political preferences, but accepted "State". Now he opposes the compromise we reached (i.e. "State"). So, no, I am not "accusing others" easily. But I will not take that light comment of yours as an accusation either. Peace.

May I also suggest changing Region for territories? If you disagree with that particular term, please feel free to change it back.

--the Dúnadan 22:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

As Dunadan is starting again an egocentric little war with the denomination of these geographical/political areas I will only paste here how some articles in wikipedia do start:

Please, notice that ALL are Featured articles

• Australia: The Commonwealth of Australia is a country...
• Bangladesh: Bangladesh officially the People's Republic of Bangladesh is a country in South Asia.
• Belarus: Belarus is a landlocked country in Eastern Europe.
• Belgium: The Kingdom of Belgium is a country in northwest Europe.
• Cambodia: The Kingdom of Cambodia is a country in South East Asia
• India: India , officially the Republic of India is a country in South Asia.
• Indonesia: The Republic of Indonesia is a nation in Southeast Asia.
• Israel: Israel officially the State of Israel is a country in Western Asia
• Japan: Japan is an island country in East Asia.
• Pakistan: Pakistan officially the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, is a country located in South Asia

About Dunandan's oppinion "rv, not confusing to me, or to a Canadian, or Austrlian, or to dictionaries", let's see how some of those countries + UK and US are described:

• Australia: The Commonwealth of Australia is a country in the southern hemisphere
• Canada:Canada (IPA: /ˈkænədə/) is a country occupying most of northern North America
• United Kingdom: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom, the UK, or Britain, is a sovereign island country
• United States: The United States of America is a constitutional federal republic comprising fifty states and a federal district. The country is situated mostly in central North America

So, may I ask, if all featured articles about countries use the words country or nation, why does Dunadan feel in the right to impose his own oppinion?

What do dictionnaries say?

• State:

8a. The supreme public power within a sovereign political entity. 8b. The sphere of supreme civil power within a given polity: matters of state. 9. A specific mode of government: the socialist state. 10. A body politic, especially one constituting a nation: the states of Eastern Europe. 11. One of the more or less internally autonomous territorial and political units composing a federation under a sovereign government

As Dunadan is the sole editor to keep adding the word state to define a country or nation (knowing very well the "government" meaning the word state has in english and that some editor have expressed the willingness to change it, I will again undo his edit. --MauritiusXXVII 22:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Maurice, did you bother to check a dictionary? I guess not. Let me cite a couple for you:

• country, state, land, the territory occupied by a nation;
• state, nation, country, land, commonwealth, res publica, body politic
• the territory of a state
• a politically unified people occupying a definite territory; nation.

Handpicking the definition that suits you best doesn't work. And citing Misplaced Pages doesn't work either. Or have you bothered to check state? The definition therein given is not limited to the political institutions, as you want to imply, but to the territory as well.

The problem is not imposing an opinion. The problem is that you impose yours into a uniformity to your own political preferences. But what bothers me the most, having said in a previous discussion that you were fine with the word "State", now you show now respect for your own decision. You should portray diversity. Not everybody thinks like you, and you are not always right.

--the Dúnadan 22:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

And Dunadan... About your comment "Please stop your reversions based on political preferences. Misplaced Pages is not yours" I ask you to consider the guideline Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith.

After reading it, please refer to the guidelines Misplaced Pages:Naming conflict and Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (geographic names) where it clearly says:

"Wikipedians should not seek to determine who is "right" or "wrong", nor to attempt to impose a particular name for POV reasons. They should instead follow the procedure below to determine common usage on an objective basis. By doing this, ideally, we can choose a name in a systematic manner without having to involve ourselves in a political dispute."

Well I gave 14 examples (of which 10 are featured articles) in the "common usage on an objective basis" to describe those political territories.

Has Dunadan given us any example of the "common usage on an objective basis" in wikipedia to refer to a Country or Nation as a State? NO, he hasn't! And I do Assume good faith... --MauritiusXXVII 23:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Aren't you comparing apples to oranges?

• Naming conventions refer to... well... naming articles. Titles of articles. Not to content. We are not discussing about the title. We are discussing about using a phrase that contains "State". A phrase. Not the title. Please review the guidelines you are citing.
• Your examples are of, well, countries. You can also include Spain. But of course, we are not defining a country here. We are using it in a phrase, a single phrase, interchangeably with "country". Like I said, diversity, not uniformity to a single "preference".

So, please, read the guidelines yourself. Probably you didn't, and that is why you misquote them. I am, of course, assuming good faith, ignoring your previous comments at Talk: Madrid (autonomous community).

Cheers.

--the Dúnadan 23:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Well... finally you admitted it... "Your examples are of, well, countries. You can also include Spain". Ok, from now on, Dunadan as given us permission to describe Spain as a country. --MauritiusXXVII 23:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Please read the above, carefully. Reading comprehension. Let me explain. I am including an article to your list of articles of countries. Spain, in the introduction is defined as a country. To say, alternatively, in other sections, that Spain is a "state" is also correct, not only in English, but constitutionally, since the constitution of Spain, your country, uses the term "State" and the term you hate the most "Spanish State" dozens of times, but only once does the term "country" appear - even in English translations. I hope you understand now, that we are talking about using a phrase with the word "state" along with "country". Both are right. Not uniformity. Diversity. Not about definitions. Not about titles of articles. Is it clear now? --the Dúnadan 23:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

My national constitution does not affect the way the international community describe countries/nations. and the common usage (it's a guideline) in wikipedia is to refer to them as countries. Accept you are not right! --MauritiusXXVII 23:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Maurice,

• Can you point me to the guideline that says that in the content of the articles one should avoid using the word State? No, because there isn't one.
• Can you point me to the guideline that says that common usage in Misplaced Pages (even though you compare apples to oranges) is more important that primary sources and WP:Verifiability (i.e. the constitution of Spain)? No, because there isn't one.

The only thing you've proven is:

• You cannot abide by your own consensus and you recant on your own word. Having accepted State at Talk: Madrid (autonomous community), now you say it is not correct.
• Because of your intransigent position, you oppose NPOV (i.e. diversity of opinions) to impose your own POV (i.e. national sentiment).

Please Maurice, let's take a break. Perhaps tomorrow you will review all the arguments we've presented so that you can rethink things over. Nobody argues against country. State is also fine. Both are fine. Both verifiable. Both correct. Do you get it now? Cheers, --the Dúnadan 23:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh please... Quit that demagogy with me. It just doesn't work. If, like you say, I do mix apples with oranges, well in your case, you are unable to see and accept the big watermelon.

Again, quit insulting me ("your intransigent position"). I ask you again to reconsider the guideline Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith urgently.

I don't have again to point you the guideline that says that in the content of the articles one should avoid using the word State' because ALL the featured articles about countries use the word country or nation.

let's see the definitions in the very first line here in wikipedia:

• Country: In political geography and international politics, a country is a political division of a geographical entity, a sovereign territory, most commonly associated with the notions of state or nation and government.

• Nation: A nation is a defined cultural and social community. Inasmuch as most members never meet each other, yet feel a common bond, it may be considered an imagined community.

• State: A state is a political association with effective sovereignty over a geographic area. the word is often used in a strict sense to refer only to modern political systems.

In casual usage, the terms "country," "nation," and "state" are often used as if they were synonymous; but in a more strict usage they can be distinguished: (and I love strictness as wikipedia demands)

• Country denotes a geographical area. It suits perfectly 100% to the article

• Nation denotes a people who are believed to or deemed to share common customs, origins, and history. However, the adjectives national and international also refer to matters pertaining to what are strictly states, as in national capital, international law. It does not suit perfectly to the article.

• State refers to the set of governing institutions that has sovereignty over a definite territory. It does not suit at all in a strict usage

So I, as an editor, choose to use the word with a more common usage, a more suitable use in strict usage, with 0% ambiguity and the more common in international use.

Meanwhile, Dunadan choose the word with no usage at all in wikipedia to describe a country/nation, no suitability at all in a strict usage and with 100% ambiguity.

And that's not all, he keeps using as reference the Spanish Constitution usage of the word State, negliging that the template affects other countries like France, Italy and Andorra which, and that's sad, couldn't care less about how and why spaniards prefer the ambiguity of the word "state" to define their country. (nationalisms, regionalisms).

Again, in good faith, I have explained my point, I have given examples of the common usage in wikipedia, I have explained the reasons to choose "country" and not to choose "state" and a majority of users have expressed to be ok with my point.

I have done everything wikipedia ask users to be good editors. Let's see what is the next demagogic move by Dunadan in order to neglige (pasarse por el "arco del triunfo") all these facts.--MauritiusXXVII 08:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I understand the concerns from both parts in this discussion. It is true that these terms have several possible usages and different people may have different preferences regarding how to use them. However, in this particular article the term country it is mainly used in the geographical, not political, sense (as long as the Catalan Countries are defined as a linguistical domain, not as a political entity). That's why I think the compromise solution proposed by Mountolive is very good: we keep the usage of country in the list of Andorra, Spain, France and Italy as Maurice likes, and we keep before "sovereign states" in Dunadan's style to make clear that they are not countries in the sense of Catalan Countries. Maybe in this way everybody can be happy, don't you think? ;) --Carles Noguera (talk) 09:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Maurice,

• You continue to be intransigent in your position, and it is you who negliges , the arguments of other well-intentioned users, as well as contradicting your own word and compromised position when you accepted the word "State" in a previous discussion. You yourself use derogatory comments like "Dúndan... staring an egocentric little war" (and this is one of your "mild" statements) but then you pretend to "assume good faith", and demand others to treat you with utmost respect. Enough said about that.
• You continue to compare apples to oranges. You bring articles of countries and guidelines of naming conventions. Yet, this is not an article of a "country" (in the sense, of course, in English, of a sovereign-state), but of a concept. Therefore, and to avoid confusion it is necessary to use the word "State", especially when the concept is called "Catalan Countries". Is Spain a Catalan country? No, it is a sovereign State that contains a territory that is included in the concept known as Catalan Countries. Crystal clear. In your insistence -and your personal dislike of the term, as you yourself said at Talk: Madrid (autonomous community)- you are actually bringing more confusion to the reader my mixing two valid connotations. English speakers, like myself, know perfectly well that State can also mean country or nation. And the dictionaries agree. Enough said about that.
• You cannot cite Misplaced Pages to define terms. I've cited dictionaries that define terms. And the Spanish constitution. But it surprises me, that you, being French, or at least, fluent in French, are implying that the French do not use the word État to refer to the entire country. They do, and very much so, probably more than Spanish-speaking people do in Spain, even in the French constitution. .
• You continue to ignore that you are not the "majority of users". Mountolive also expressed that both words are synonymous and accepted a compromise. (Kudos to Mountolive!) Cnoguera also agreed with the compromise. Therefore, you are not the majority.

The truth is that, as you've pointed out in countless debates, you dislike the term Estado, because of your political preferences and the purported connotation it carries, and oppose its inclusion not in the title, not in articles about countries, but in any paragraph whatsoever, especially those related to Catalonia. As I've proven, there is nothing wrong with the word, in English. Moreover, it brings diversity and NPOV. Cheers, --the Dúnadan 22:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC) todo lo que viene aqui de Cataluña es falso, Cataluña no es un pais, es una región de España y no hay mas que hablar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.122.179.175 (talk) 12:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Mauricio, you forget to mention other articles such Wales, Scotland, where "country" is said for these, or Bavaria where "state" is used for it. The name of "Catalan Countries" is correct. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 11:48, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Unless you wish me to call you from now on "Juanote", I ask you to always call me "Maurice" and not "Mauricio". "Mauricio, no; yo me llamo Maurice aquí y en la China". --MauritiusXXVII (Aut Disce, Aut Doce, Aut Discede!). 18:03, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

This is not a forum, Mauricio. In other side, the correct translation is "Juanito", and I will be pleased if you prefer this form. Feel free. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 14:34, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

About requesting move to Països Catalans

That's the second time you changed the name of the article (here and here) in about 48 hours. Be warned that next time you decide to make that article name move without consensus and without following the guidelines for controversial moves explained at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves you will be reported. May this message and the one I will copy at your talk-page be the proof that you were warned of this disruptive behaviour of yours. --MauritiusXXVII (Aut Disce, Aut Doce, Aut Discede!). 17:50, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Please, can you both show me where's the consensus? The Dúnadan precissely noted you both were pushing an intransigent POV. You and Mountolive have moved the page without reached a consensus with The Dúnadan, so I've restored it to the stage before of the debate. So you shoud request the move first according Misplaced Pages:Requested moves, not me. A subject turned into controversial by you both it should to make a request on talk page. Cheers, Mauricio. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 22:38, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

For continuously moving the article's name without consensus and without folowing the steps explained at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves for controversial moves, you have been reported. here is the link. --MauritiusXXVII (Aut Disce, Aut Doce, Aut Discede!). 00:17, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Make a formal request according to Misplaced Pages:Requested moves, please Mauricio. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 08:46, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Title dispute

I'm not touching that move tab! But I do think the article would be better at Països Catalans rather than Catalan Countries. I think this is a classic example where we shouldn't translate what is a precise term in a foreign language (here, Catalan) into an imprecise term in English. The translation is accurate, of course, but it still loses meaning. Països Catalans means something more than just "Catalan-speaking regions", as you can see if you try to translate it into other languages: Países Catalanes is understandable in Spanish, but países catalanes would be meaningless; Pays Catalans is a good translation in French, but pays catalans refers to what many or most Catalans would call Catalunya Nord. We would never dream of translating Generalitat into English, nor do we translate Francophonie: why should we insist on translating the term Països Catalans? Physchim62 (talk) 01:43, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Can you give external sources supporting your opinion?. Països Catalans is not being used in English to refer Catalan Countries. As a external source, the Catalan-speakers (or descendants of them) who live outside of the Catalan Countries in English-speakers countries call it "Catalan Countries" (such this link from California, USA). And if it's not enough for you, this other link of a institutional web made from the Departament of the Pyrynées-Orientales, in the version in English, also call it in the same way. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 08:45, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Need sources for that

I will put here all the information wich are not being backed by facts:

• ... most acrimoniously in Valencia during the 1980s

--Joanot Martorell ✉ 09:08, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

And about the "Catalan Sea"

If you don't know, "Catalan Sea" (also called sometimes as "Balearic Sea" if it reaches to Minorca) is one of the "minor seas" of the Mediterranean, such the "Alborán Sea". The image map is correct, and Maurice used it to change the name to Pyrynées-Orientales for the "Northern Catalonia" pushing his very personal POV. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 09:21, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

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