Misplaced Pages

No, the page best suited for it is on the talk page of a steward or at m:Requests for permissions. The request was denied because Silsor didn't make it himself. Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship is to request adminship, not to request de-adminship. This request is just a poll; regardless of the outcome, nothing will take place except Silsor can see people's opinion of him and his request. If he wishes to have his adminship removed, he will still have to ask a steward or on meta, just as he could have done first without wasting people's time. That a strong majority of people commenting/voting on Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/silsor are protesting the listing should be a sign that the listing is inappropriate. — Knowledge Seeker দ 08:50, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Kim, I'm glad you reposted this RfA (RfDA?), but disagree with your interpretation. Drawing on my military background, what Silsor is requesting is not an honourable discharge, but to be stripped of his rank. He can get an honourable discharge much easier by moving his name from the Active to the Inactive section of WP:LA. Or better yet, create a new section on that page called Editors who stopped acting as admin. Again using the military metaphor, I voted "Oppose" as any court martial would when judging an officer in good standing. I don't expect Silsor to do any more than he is prepared to; this is a voluntary service, after all. But Silsor has rightfully earned his sysop rank, and I will not support stripping him of it—even at his own request—without due cause. Owen× ☎ 11:36, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I know I'm often thought of a bureacratic process monkey, but why is everyone so bloody serious? A little breaching experiment now and then, performed by someone with such obvious good standing, can only serve to keep us from ossifying.
brenneman 11:48, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

• If we set a precedent of abusing standing process for purposes other than for which they are intended, where do we stop? Should we use AfD for undeletions? Should we use ArbCom to heap praise on somebody? Should we use RfCs in reverse? This is an abuse of Misplaced Pages processes. RfA is ill-suited to handle such a request, was not designed to handle a request, and regardless of the result will not result in the action that Silsor wants. He's been directed to the appropriate place to handle his request. He should go there. If a brand new user took the Mel Gibson article to AfD to get an idea of how much the people liked the article, he would be roundly criticized for the action and it would be rapidly undone. Why is this any different? --Durin 13:13, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

RFA is and should be "bloody serious" (aside from the sometimes-funny support votes). WP:POINT still applies, even when the supposed point leaves most, including me, scratching their heads. IIRC, Aaron, you weren't too happy when Uncle Ed did a little "breaching experiment" by deleting VfD. What makes that bad and this okay? android79 13:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

• I don't know this admin, but this looks like vanity, pure and simple: and timewasting vanity at that. If an admin wants desysoped, he requests it at meta, he gets it - end of story. What this admin seems to want is a dramatic exit, with lots of people saying wonderful things about him. Well, someone give him a damn carriage clock - and organise a whip-round! It is about a childish as editors who say they are leaving the project, in order to get everyone to say 'no don't do that, we all really love you......' --Doc (?) 13:30, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

• If we approach this another way:
  1. Has silsor demonstrated that (prior to this) he was overly dramatic?
  2. Has silsor demonstrated (prior to this) eggregious poor judgement?
  3. Does silsor know what the processes are if all he wanted was to be dead-minned?

As I understand it, that's "No, no, and yes". So he makes his point, or gets his lovefest, or corrupts the database, or introduces crypto-anthrax into the Erotic spanking article or whatever. He's happy, and in three weeks this will barely be a blip on the collective horizon. We'll have all forgotten. Chant WP:IAR thirty times, examine the real level of harm done by this, and move on. The possible damage is limited mostly to silsor's reputation, slippery slope arguments aside. Most importantly - Nothing is to be gained by further exhorting him to stop. He's found enough supporters/hangers-on/codependant personality types/whatever to let him have this unfold the way he wants. Unless you want to have open wheel wars over this total non-issue? People do crazy things, stupid things, even pointless things, and sometimes all that we do if we try to figure out why is make ourselves crazy.
brenneman 13:39, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I may be a little bit slow on the uptake, but to this moment I haven't really understood what he really wants. It smells of WP:Point, it has a slight tinge of vanity, with something on top which I can't really fathom. Lectonar 13:47, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Erotic spanking is censored where I'm at, but I must ask: what the hell is crypto-anthrax? ;). Marskell 13:51, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Aaron, I agree. To qualify as WP:POINT, an action has to involve a disruption. It takes maybe five seconds to read silsor's nomination and skip it, if you think it's pointless, futile, or a waste of time. We are engulfed in counting votes, tallying edits, and endlessly debating whether someone or other deserves to be admin; I find it refreshing to see this RfDA shake things up a bit, make us examine both our processes and our view of what is essentially a multi-class hierarchical society, as much as we hate to admit so. Silsor is questioning our beliefs in this dogma, but is doing so in a fascinating, thought-provoking way. Silsor didn't just go ahead and delete WP:RfA or open an RfC against all the admins whom he believes are tarnishing our image; his methods are much more subtle, and—I believe—more productive.

I think giving the RfA system a good shake once or twice a year is a good thing. It is, indeed, a constructive way to illustrate a point. Owen× ☎ 14:47, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

You see "fascinating" and "thought-provoking"; I see confusing and pointless. As it stands, I'm still unsure what silsor's point was in the first place, as he has remained pretty enigmatic throughout this whole... thing, whatever you want to call it. Whatever problems silsor sees with adminship could have been discussed thoughtfully on this talk page, but instead we get disruption and acrimony, intended or not. Make a statement with words, not with actions. android79 14:58, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

In the absence of a detectable 'point' to this so-called 'disruption of WP:POINT', one arrives at the logical conclusion that there is no point trying to be proven, and that no harm is being done here. Talrias (t | e | c) 15:54, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, there's the unecessary conflict. If nobody can figure out precisely why the non-RFA was posted in the first place–I know I still can't figure it out–silsor's insistence on reposting it without a clear explanation of what he's looking for and why it belongs here is disruptive. There's also the bandwidth being wasted, which I object to as a matter of principle. This non-request will stay up for a week, then...what? Be closed as no consensus? Since nobody seems to understand exactly what Silsor is hoping to get out of this process, we can't give it to him anyway. If he wanted general comments on adminship versus non-adminship, he could use RFC or the Village Pump. He's a good editor and a sound admin, but this non-RFA just doesn't make any sense; it's disruptive for him to ignore all the other sensible editors who are telling him that.

This obviously isn't an urgent matter. He'd have been better off not repeatedly restoring his non-RFA to the main page until he could clearly spell out what he wanted to find out. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I've had the list of reasons for my RFD listed at the bottom of it for two days. You are of course welcome to continue wondering and speculating about what I want but it's really recommended reading. silsor 23:01, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

The number of comments here expressing confusion would seem to suggest that some of us are particularly obtuse; we still don't understand what you're hoping to accomplish. If you're interested in knowing what we think of you having yourself desysopped, put a note on your user page, file an RFC, or post a question on the Pump. I suspect that the bulk of the reaction to your specific request would fall somewhere between "That's too bad; he's done a good job as an admin and I don't see why he needs to give up the tools if he's not leaving" to "Meh; this won't have a significant effect one way or the other".

If you're interested in more general comments or discussion about the adminship/deadminship processes here, once again an RFC or Pump notice would be the way to go; a note at AN and even a box at the top of RFA wouldn't be amiss.

This third route that you've chosen has left a lot of people scratching their heads. You've couched your non-RFA as a request for permission that we're not required to give (or capable of giving, for that matter). We've already told you how to achieve the goal you've purportedly set out to accomplish. Once again, I ask you to state plainly what you want. What topics do you want to discuss? What do you think is wrong that needs fixing? Do you have any goals here? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 23:30, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I second TenOfAllTrades. I support de-adminning, and I surely don't mind voluntary votes of confidence, although for both of those I have questions of the appropriate forum. Here, I'm still confused. I don't mind the RfA, I just can't see how it can mean anything. There are many different interpretations of what it's for, and many people like me, going, "eh?," so the thing is really useless. If Silsor wants it, fine... as long as he's actually de-adminned at the end of it, because I'm worried that he's unwell. Xoloz 18:35, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

• I'll tell you what I don't understand, and that's why we're all still talking about this. The best thing that we could do is simply shu
  brenneman 00:05, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I second the mo
    Owen× ☎ 00:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The proper page for such requests is meta:Requests for permissions. I have moved Silsor's request there. A vote is not necessary. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 23:37, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

flawed jewel

Today I was sorely tempted to pull an Ed Poor and delete RFA, luckily I came to my senses that it would be a bit too bold, would be a violation of WP:POINT and would be too crazy of a unilateral action to take not to mention countless other side issues it would cause.

I contend here and now that although it is not inherently flawed RFA has become flawed, RFA used to be an unbiased and untainted way for users who felt they had what it took to request community input on whether they were trustworthy enough to have adminship privileges. Over time this has been changed and dare I say corrupted by campaigning for and against canidates as well as being influenced by old grudges from long before the fight began and that adminship is now not determined by whether an editor is trustworthy enough and is not given out very liberally as originally intended but a canidate's worth has now been degraded to who's faction agrees with them and how much power that faction holds, who likes them and who doesn't, whether they're in the in crowd or whether they are not. I think anyone would be hard pressed to disagree with me when I say that this is not what the envisioned when RFA was originally implemented.

My suggestions for RFA are simple. Form a solution, even a temporary one, and use it to replace the current system. If the created system is only temporary then work as a community to create a more permanent one, one that works and one that is free from individual and group biases. I would also suggest getting the input from those who who envisioned and worked on the original RFA process and even from Jimbo himself if he is willing to comment on how to create this new system. I will be the first to admit that I do not have an answer to RFA nor do I have a way to solve it's problems, however I hope that the community as a whole can find a way to make RFA work. We have the technology, we can make it faster, better, stronger. Jtkiefer ----- 01:49, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Is it just me or are a lot more people getting admined now than they used to? People also seem to have many more votes than before (my RfA had somthing like 20 votes)- why do people bother to vote support when there are already an overwhelming number of supports? A while ago somebody (not that I remember who) was using a criteria that said that all admins had to have an FA to their name. Perhaps a concrete standard like that (that particular one seems a bit strict) could work. It wouldn't solve the factionalization though I personally haven't noticed such cabalish behavior. Are you looking for a complete overhaul or just different standards? Personally, I wonder if we should make vote soliciting against the rules? Broken S 02:07, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

There are more editors now, and Misplaced Pages is growing faster, so I should hope that more people are getting adminship now than in the past. A more interesting question is how the ratio of successful/unsuccessful attempts has changed over time; but that is actually fairly hard to calculate, since unsuccessful attempts are not grouped by date. Naturally, the number of people voting in each attempt has also increased with Misplaced Pages's population. In successful nominations it does no harm; in close ones we can hardly forbid people from adding their vote; and plainly failing attempts generally get removed. But anyway, to get back to the main point: I agree that a few recent nominations (and some not-so-recent ones) have suffered from extreme amounts of factionalism... There are some people whose name, appearing on one side of a vote, is practically a guarentee of several other specific names on both sides. My general feeling, though, is that whatever course we take, we should try to stick to the principal that adminship is no big deal. The more admins we have, the less damage individual admins can do; making as many people as possible admins, then depending on them to watch each other strikes me as the closest we can get to the Wiki Way. Optimally, adminship should be automatic for anyone who wants the job and wouldn't abuse the position. --Aquillion 02:38, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

...Is a solution possible? Those seem more like problems with the community than the process. It is obvious that community input is necessary for adminship selection. The community is sufficiently large that a vote may be the only non-cumbersome way to get input. A vote will naturally lead to social issues. The current RFA process seems to be the least bad of all the bad choices. ~~ N (t/c) 02:20, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

My assertion though is that there shouldn't be bad choices, whether through reform of the process or of the community there should be a way to find a good choie in all of this. Jtkiefer ----- 02:46, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Of course, but that doesn't mean a good choice exists. I don't believe one does, aside from the fairly minor change of discounting unjustified "me-too" votes (and I'm not even sure that's a good idea). Getting proper community input (a vote or other objective measure, not evidence to sway a bureaucrat's subjective judgement) is not possible without making heated argument likely. The only way to fix that issue (to the extent that it can be fixed) is through changing social atmosphere. ~~ N (t/c) 03:47, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to restate a proposal that I made several weeks ago, and similar to that which R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) made earlier on this page - to divide the distribution of admin powers into at least two levels, with a lower threshold of support required to achieve less potent powers (e.g., the rollback button, the power to block only anonymous users, perhaps page protection), and a mentoring system for people in the higher level to assist those in the lower level. BDAbramson T 02:55, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

In my experience, blocking anon IPs requires much more care and skill than other blocks. It would probably be better to leave that to higher levels. Of course the software would need to be modified to enable the above (except for rollbacks which can apparently be provided to non-sysops in the current version of the software). --Tony Sidaway 03:08, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Alternative

I agree that it's horrible right now. I was adminned just over six months ago, but if RFA had been as it is now I would have refused the offer. I could edit Misplaced Pages perfectly well without going through this bare-knuckle battle.

So, the beauty contest concept is becoming less useful. Here's an outline of a possible alternative:

1. Give admin powers only to people who demonstrate useful skills. An RC patroller who consistently gets high praise from his fellows, an AfD closer who does a good job, someone who cleans up copyright infringements, or one who lists them, someone who maintains one of the dispute resolution pages, or tracks down orphanned page protects and listed them on Misplaced Pages:Protect page, welcomes new editors, or maintains Misplaced Pages:Vandalism in progress. Someone who does a good job on these tasks for a couple of months is probably admin material.
2. Discount anyone who keeps getting involved in sterile edit wars. We've got enough edit-warring admins already.

The idea is to have published criteria. Someone would be nominated in the usual way. He can write a brief (250 words at most) candidacy address.

Anyone who likes (including the candidate) can then add single lines in a prescribed format of the form:

• (list of diffs) "Brief and neutral description of useful task performed by candidate"
• (list of diffs) "Brief and neutral description of sterile edit war involving candidate"

A bureaucrat decides at the end of the period whether to grant an admin bit to the candidate. He should use his common sense, and may wish to take into account the editing experience of the candidate as well as the evidence presented.

I bet it'll frighten away the RFA groupies and the edit counters, while permitting useful information to be quietly gathered and a good decision to be made. --Tony Sidaway 02:49, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

A bureaucrat decides at the end of the period whether... that's making it too subjective and less transparent. =Nichalp «Talk»= 03:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

What's transparent about an editor who just rolls up on RFA and types ~~~~ '''Support'''? Where's the objectivity? --Tony Sidaway 03:23, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Nothing, but anyone gets to do it, not just a bureaucrat. Just discounting votes that don't have a reason would fix that problem (although it has its own problems). Leaving the final decision up to the subjective, non-transparent judgement of an empowered class is oligarchy. I don't trust the bureaucrats enough to give them this level of (opaque, subjective) judgement, do you? ~~ N (t/c) 03:47, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Bureaucrats closing noms based on diff and common sense makes it less transparent. Bureaucrats are there to enforce community decisions on adminships, not to make subjective calls. =Nichalp «Talk»= 03:54, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I would support Tony's proposal wholeheartedly. It is time the RfA process evolves to something better and devoid of political bias or being missused to castigate editors with opposing POVs. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 03:33, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

As reform proposals go, it doesn't seem that bad. Two issues: one, it should be more flexible, allowing more reasons to oppose than just edit-warring. Two, again, subjective, opaque judgement of a bureaucrat is bad. ~~ N (t/c) 03:47, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Alternative 2: Adminship by "mini-RfC"

In the past 12 months Misplaced Pages has more than doubled in size: from 380,000 articles in November 2004 to 804,000 now, for an increase of 112%. Growth in total traffic has more than tripled during this year. The number of active admins, on the other hand, grew by only 74%, from 313 to 545 in this period. This means that the workload on each admin is much higher than it was a year ago, and it keeps getting worse. The reason we have more admins now is that we need more admins now. What we should now find is a method to recruit admins faster, without giving up quality. My solution includes two parts, drawing on some good ideas presented above by BDAbramson and Tony Sidaway:

1. Adopt the new Misplaced Pages:Requests for rollback privileges, and assign the "rollback" privilege liberally (automatically?) to any registered user with a clean record (never blocked) who has been here for two weeks and amassed 150 edits. Having an army of well-equipped RC patrollers would take a good chunk of the workload off admins, allowing them to deal with trickier or more delicate tasks such as copyvios, AfDs, CSDs and such.
2. Modify the RfA process as follows: nominations would still appear here, but opinions, rather than votes, would be added by anyone who has something to say about the candidate. At the end of the seven day period, two bureaucrats would review the opinions as well as any evidence they choose to collect, and based on that and their own best judgment, issue a unanimous decision. If the nomination fails, the two "adjudicators" will issue a short justification for their ruling. Since the two adjudicators are assigned and announced at the time of nomination, they can—at their discretion—make a decision before the seven days are up, if they feel additional opinions are unlikely to change the outcome.

Using this system, "piling on votes" would be futile. Only people bringing something new to the table would have an impact on the outcome. Any "faction" or clique would be quickly recognized and discounted as such by our seasoned b'crats. Petty grudges, when such exist, would have to be supported by real evidence. And lastly, we would get the benefit of the judgment of two humans making a choice, rather than a blind algorithm counting votes. I expect most nominations to gather no more than a handful of opinions. Some would turn into a heated discussions, of course, but maybe rightly so. Repeat nominations of failed candidates would only accept new material; the pervious nom would be used as a baseline. Not all bureaucrats will be willing to take this job, but all we need is a few dedicated ones, and we're in business.

This may not be a perfect system, but I think it is a step in the right direction, and addresses many of the concerns voiced on this page. Do I hear a 'second'? Owen× ☎ 04:13, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Seconded, if the issues of transparency and oligarchy can be properly dealt with. I.e., the bureaucrats should have to provide a detailed rationale no matter what, and there needs to be an appeals process (at least for opponents to appeal promotions). I do think this would require many more bureaucrats, though - what you're describing is actually like a mini-arbitration case. ~~ N (t/c) 04:31, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. The current system of making admins is fine, except this should be done: All "yes" votes for promotion should require no explanation, a simple "yes" should do. However, if you make every "no" voter be required to post a unique reason, at the tally, those "no's" with crummy reasons would be discarded for having not having met a reasonable objection threshold. In addition, use a "bot" that tags an editors user page with a "You can be an Admin" announcement -with easy to follow link that says "click here" to accept your nomination. The system "bot" can automatically nominate editors who reach certain thresholds. Rex071404 05:10, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Excellent, enforce editcountitis by 'bot. That'll be popular. -Splash 14:04, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

That, too, would be excellent (except for the bot). Bureaucrats should however have to provide reasons for accepting or discarding each vote. And explanations on 'support' votes should not be prohibited, although they shouldn't be required either. ~~ N (t/c) 15:01, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

• I absolutely shudder to think at the acrimony that will rapidly appear in the RfA process if bureaucrats are required to show their reasons for accepting or discarding each and every vote. If that happens, this process is doomed. No person in their right mind would ever want to become a bureaucrat. --Durin 17:11, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Before we can make changes, we have to clearly identify the problems

There's a call to make changes to RfA. Very well. Step 1: Identify what the shortcomings are. You have to do this before you can craft a solution; else you have no way of determining if your solution addresses the shortcomings. Without this, you're just as likely to make things worse as you are to make them better. What I've seen people say the shortcomings are of late (and my responses).

• Incivility. This is an individual issue, and not a problem with RfA. RfA was plenty civil in the past. The process hasn't changed to cause it to become incivil. What has changed is our willingness to accept incivility in the process. That's not a fault of the RfA process. That's a fault of the contributors. Put blame where it belongs.
• Campaigning for and against candidates: What I have seen over the last four months has been a number of candidates being roundly criticized for campaigning, and similar response to people campaigning against them. I simply don't see that this has been a problem. Cite examples if you want to make the case. Currently, I don't see it.
• Factionalism: Again, I don't see it. I see quite a number of RfAs that have not become contentious in any respect. If cliques truly existed, it is again a fault of specific users and not a fault of RfA. If nominees who are not in the 'in' crowd are not getting in (this wasn't spoken, but implied) then how is it that User:Edcolins passed with barely a peep of opposition (only Boothy443 opposing). He's a patent lawyer, and hardly among the 'in' crowd. There might be certain groups of people heavily influenced by IRC. I can't speak to that as I personally refuse to be party to IRC.
• Individual and group bias: Individual bias? How do you expect we can remove that and still have humans involved in the process? If we did it purely by machine, we still couldn't remove group bias. Any mechanism by which we attempt to develop consensus is going to inherently have bias. We can not be automatons that simply look at base facts and vote strictly based on binary qualities. No matter what system you design, there will be bias of one form or another.
• Piling on of support votes: Since more people are on Misplaced Pages, more people are involved in RfA. Unavoidable. Unless you want to exclude people from the RfA process you can count on this being part of RfA. I readily grant it is not easily scalable, but I doubt there's any easier solution unless you layer in all sorts of instruction creep (perhaps things like...only allowed to vote thrice weekly or some other arbitrary restrictions on suffrage).

Opaque judgement of a bureaucrat is part of the current process. It is generally used in the 75% realm of RfAs. If the process were transparent, and a bureaucrat was obligated to show which votes were discounted, or what consensus they felt was stronger and why...I doubt there would be any people applying to be bureaucrats and the bureaucrats we have now would run screaming for the hills. The process would rapidly degenerate into accusatory pit brawls, with bureaucrats being in the center of it.

The measures of Misplaced Pages growth used to show why admins aren't being promoted fast enough suffer from being indirect measures of how much work admins need to do. There's a presumption that the amount of work has increased in direct propotion to the growth. This could be very, very wrong in either direction. At least one person did a very (very) small study on the incidence of vandalism. We need a more comprehensive study before we can say with any firmity that we are not promoting admins rapidly enough.

As for having a featured article to a nominee's name; can anybody...anybody...provide a reference to an article that was crafted by one single individual that made it to FA status? Such articles aren't the work of a single individual. An article getting to FA status isn't the credit of one single person.

If people are curious, I can provide statistics on any number of different takes on the RfA process as it has progressed since June 23rd of this year when I began keeping detailed statistics. As memory serves, I don't think the ratio of success/unsuccess has changed. What has recently been a surprising aberration is the number of early withdrawls; a rate in excess of 30% when the prior rate had been ~10%. A number of editors have been working on WP:GRFA, a recently developed guide to the RfA process. One of the hoped for outcomes is a reduction in the number of premature nominations. This may have a desirable effect on the number of early withdrawals.

Thanks for reading. --Durin 05:05, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

As for having a featured article to a nominee's name... I think we should look at it as getting articles to featured status, rather than owing an article. FAC is not a cakewalk, esp to newbies. =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, can anyone provide an example of where factionalist voting has altered the result of an RfA? In Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Aaron Brenneman where one might have expected it, I actually saw very little evidence - and result was not affected. Where are folk voting 'oppose - he's not in my gang'? I suspect this is a phantom problem. --Doc (?) 09:36, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Since this is getting fairly long, can we set up a page to specifically talk about RfA reform? I know, "what do you think this page is for?", but reform is going to take a lot of writing and shouldn't clutter this area up too much. --LV 15:22, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

• I personally don't see that there is a case for reform, and leaving it here on the talk page for everyone to see helps develop some consensus on whether such is required. By creating a reform page, it's in essence saying that reform is required. Today, I've been going through the archives of this page. Reform is *far* from a new concept. I've worked my way through the archives (oldest to newest) up to March of 2004. This is not a new concept, and there's never been consensus (that I've yet seen) on radical changes to the system. --Durin 17:13, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Of course it is not a new idea, but it is brought up so often that a separate page, or even some sort of RfC, specifically dealing with RfA reform could be formed. Establishing it doesn't mean that reform is required, it would be there that we could determine if it is. It would be an open area to discuss different options and ideas. We establish pages with proposed policy, etc. all the time. This wouldn't really be any different. And my suggestion would simply move the debate for or against reform to a different page than this one. --LV 18:09, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

At the risk of repeating myself, I'm just going to repeat myself:> The Rfa system may not be broken, YET, but it is clearly starting to bend under the weight of Wiki's growth. A system, ANY system, is only as good as the people involved. A play may be brilliantly written, but if it has lousy direction and untalented actors it will be an ordeal when performed. One need only watch a typical grade school adaptation of Hamlet to see how bad the results can be. This being said, I do not think any radical measures to change Rfa are needed, yet. But I do advocate some modest reforms, which may or may not work but are at least worth a try.

• First- WP:GRFA, alone is simply not enough. It will be no more effective than a small safety sign at a MOSH PIT. I do think it is worthwhile to try, however, provided it is used along with the following two proposals.
• Second- A type of candidate "Peer Review" very much like that used in the FAC process, where it has proved highly effective. This would be optional, of course, but highly recommended. It would ne easy to implement and allow issues, personal and otherwise, to be discussed and hopefully worked out before an Rfa. It could help to drastically cut back on the number of ambushes, pile-ons and withdrals. *Third- As a final line of defense, should the first two fail or not be followed, some set of officials to oversee the Rfa to try and ensure the proceedings are kept civil in accordance with the letter and spirit of Wiki guidelines. They would have the power to strike abusive and/or insulting comments, warn those who make them and if they continue, kick them out of the Rfa and nullify their votes. These "Ushers", would be appointed by and answerable to an elected Rfa "Bailiff", who could reinforce their decisions or remove them if they abuse or neglect their duties.

So there you have it...nothing radical (duuude:), these three steps are only modest, incremental measures, which separately would have little effect, but if used together as part of a coherient policy, they might just work. No, they won't make the process perfect, but they can make it less painful...less of an ordeal. I have some Wikipedians and friends I'd like to nominate for admins, because I have full confidence they are worthy and deserving of the title and responsibility. But as the Rfa process now stands, I would not dare risk subjecting them to it. Meanwhile, as I was telling SoLando, I'm growing weary of this debate. It is becoming clear to me that many of the key players here think the system is just snazzy and nothing is wrong at all. It works has always worked and always will work. This is the way of complacency and denial...a path which almost always leads to disaster in the long run. All the moreso in dynamic, fast changing situations. The trouble with trying to reform ANYTHING is the powers-that-be refuse to recognize the problem until it is too late and modest, incremental reform is no longer a viable option. Now that I've said my peace and bored you all to tears, I'm removing myself from this debate. Call me if anything constructive, productive or interesting should come of it.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 21:40, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

• Officials to oversee the RfA process? That's what bureaucrats are for. Also, any user is empowered to comment on the edits of other contributors at RfA. I've taken it upon myself to do so. Anyone concerned with civility at RfA should. As for the RfA system being snazzy and perfectly fine as it is; nobody has identified anything that is clearly wrong with the process itself. Objections have been raised regarding civility, but that is a user specific issue, not a process one. I'm all ears if you have particular objections to the process, but so far nobody has put forther anything specific as to what is wrong with the process. Analogy; you tell your mechanic "My car is running poorly". He asks, "What is it doing wrong?". You have no answer, or the answer is "The people who get into my car are jerks". We need material to work with here. So far, nothing has come forward. You want people to recognize the problem, but don't state what the problem with the RfA process is. This is very difficult. All the moreso because you don't believe incremental reform is possible. This implies tossing the process we have now, without identifying what is wrong with it, in favor of a new process that may or may not address the concerns you have. --Durin 22:31, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

There's a numeric rule for removing?!

I'm disturbed by the suggestion that once Oppose–support=10 an RfA has failed. I don't recall, and nor can I find, a "general consensus" on this new instruction. We don't need it, it wasn't very widely approved (unless I was asleep for, say, a two week voting period), and we shouldn't be removing noms early anyway, in my opinion. And hard numbers are bad since a controversial RfA could easily swing around 9-11 votes difference and I would be horrified if someone thought "ah, then that RfA is dead". It seems to me to be part of a recent instruction creep assault on RfA which we have successfully fought off. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: RfA is not broken and does not need constraintive rules to help it in not-breaking. The immediately above debates aside, of course, since they are substantial reform rather than creep. -Splash 03:54, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

In complete agreement. Legalism is bad. ~~ N (t/c) 04:04, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

In general, any arguments in opposition to the idea that failing RfAs should not be withdrawn early have fallen on deaf areas, and it remains policy. Barring a full blown poll on the matter to demonstrate (or not) community consensus on the issue, I doubt there will be any shift. --Durin 04:20, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

There are too many negatives for me to be sure of what you mean. But in any case, policy (such as it is) most certainly does not stipulate a 10 vote difference constituting failure, and it never has. -Splash 04:22, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Although it's possible to come back from 10 votes in the hole, it's totally inconceivable. 10 supports up? Easily, just screw up and bang! you're gone. But 10 opposes? If you get 10 opposes with 0 supports, it's strange that the oppose votes came that fast that you can expect to get 40 support votes without another opposition vote, and it's just as weird to go from 50/60/0 to uhhh, 240/60/0, if you know where I'm going with this. I can't think of being able to do something so amazingly great that you WON'T lose the RfA. However I believe if RFA's are delisted to protect the subject from woe, and thus if the subject doesn't WANT to be delisted, don't delist them. Redwolf24 (talk) 04:27, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The point about numbers is that, if you stay 9 votes down, you get a whole week to turn things around, but, if you're 11 votes down, you're a dodo. If you're a controversial candidate, and your total vote count is reaching toward 80-100, that's dead easy to see happen. -Splash 04:31, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Are you saying 80 people participate? that'd be 35-45, meaning you'd still need 180 total support votes, assuming no more opposes come... and as for 9 vs. 11, I guess you have to draw the line somewhere... but once again I think we can use common sense in delisting, and if the subject wants to relist themselves, don't stop them. Redwolf24 (talk) 04:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Lucky6.9 springs to mind, and so does William M. Connolley. But anyway, there doesn't have to be a line drawn at all. If you must unlist early, then use judgement, not hard rules. Judgement in reading RfAs is why we make people Bureaucrats. Those we elect to interpret sociology over statistics should not be trying to break the process down into mere statistics. -Splash 05:01, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Many of the arguments in favor of removing failing RfAs are based on the presumption that the only thing that can result from an RfA is a determination of consensus on adminship. This simply isn't true. Quite a number of RfA candidates have used prior RfAs as a guide on how they can improve themselves for the next go around. Removing RfAs prematurely denies them this resource. Further, quite a number of RfA contributors use prior RfAs to see if the candidate has improved on shortcomings from the last RfA. Remove the RfA earlier, and you open the door for people to castigate noms on a second nomination because of errors they made prior to their first RfA. Look at Alkivar for a case in point of how bad it could have been if his prior RfA had been yanked prematurely. He's succeeding because it's clear the objections are from before the last RfA and were stated in the last RfA. Remove early, and you deny a candidate that. No matter what arbitrary measure you use to determine whether an RfA is failing, you are going to find exceptions and objections to it. Early removal also encourages people to vote quickly, rather than slowly. I tend to not vote very much despite spending a lot of time involved in the RfA process. This is because I vote slowly. Look at my oppose vote on Aranda56's nom (). That took a while to develop. Let's say instead that it was a positive vote. I would have to move quickly for an RfA that I thought might fail to get my support vote into the RfA, to perhaps influence other later contributors prior to them voting oppose. As it stands now, anyone...whether a bureaucrat or not, whether an admin or not, can arbitrarily remove an RfA as failing based on whatever criteria they so choose. I can go on for a while on a number of points on why removing RfAs prematurely is bad. In fact, I have in the archives of this talk page. I keep repeating myself over and over and over again on these points to no avail. As I noted earlier, it's falling on deaf ears. I believe the policy is essentially etched in stone. As I noted previously, barring a poll to reverse the policy, it isn't going to change. --Durin 05:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I kind of see were RedWolf24 is going. The votes should be quite randomized and linear, assuming no "rallying", so that O(t)=Kt and S(t)=Ct. C and K can be determined after only a samplespace number of votes are cast to get an accurate prediction. Therefore V(t)=t(c+k). If C/(C+K) is *WAY* less than 2/3 then the nomination will fail, whether you close it now or wait(let t increase). C and K, as determined by O(ti)+S(ti) must be at least about 10 or so("i" for initial), and after more than 2 days; but using standard deviation..ect...we could get the exact right number to get +/-3 % accuracy ;-).

Then again, numbers aren't everything, and Durin's Bane, I mean Durin...:-), has a point. Maybe failed candidates can learn from this as opposed to a quicky removal.Voice of All 06:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)