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Revision as of 23:02, 5 November 2005

Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Music

Most articles on singles, and many on albums, have tables giving details of performance on various charts. There are two issues causing disagreement.

First, some editors hold that the charts should be divided up and assigned to separate tables. The division is sometimes between "U.S." and "World", sometimes between "World" and "Billboard", and sometimes between other categories. The most usual division is into two, but some articles divide the charts into "International", "World", and "Billboard", or other variants. Editors opposed to these divisions argue that there is often a degree of PoVness (e.g., in "U.S." vs "World" or "Other") or of arbitrariness (e.g., in "World" vs "Billboard"), and that dividing the tables is unnecessary, untidy, and wasteful (unified tables take up less space, and are often different widths).

Secondly, some editors hold that tables should all have a column giving the name of the single or album concerned, and another giving the year. In most cases this results in two columns that each repeat the same datum (the title of the article, and the one year) over and over again. Those opposed argue that this is again wasteful, and that on those few occasions when a variant title is used or the year varies, this can be accommodated in the table without the need for an extra column.

Thirdly, a "chart trajectory" table (sometimes more than one) is often included. Here the issue is whether it should be in a separate section, and whether it should again repeat the single's title.

Example table

This example combines the three issues, using the simplest version (in more complex examples there are three tables for the charts, with two or more tables for chart trajectories).

Divided table, with "Single" column

Charts

"It's Like That" debuted at number fifty-three on the Billboard Hot 100, and remained on the chart for twenty weeks.

It was Carey's seventh number-one single on the Billboard Hot Dance Music/Maxi-Singles Sales, and her ninth on the Billboard Hot Dance Music/Club Play chart.

Chart trajectory

International

Combined table, without extra column

Comprehensive charts

"It's Like That" debuted at number fifty-three on the Billboard Hot 100, and remained on the chart for twenty weeks. It was Carey's seventh number-one single on the Billboard Hot Dance Music/Maxi-Singles Sales, and her ninth on the Billboard Hot Dance Music/Club Play chart.

Discussion

It may be worth noting how Cool (song), a Featured Article, handles its chart tables. Jkelly 16:55, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Good point; unified, and even more stripped down than my version above. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:48, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

A better question: can we legally place charts? From http://www.napster.com/terms.html and several other locations: "All Billboard chart data are the copyrighted works of VNU eMedia, Inc. Billboard chart information may not be published, broadcast, displayed or redistributed without the prior written agreement of VNU eMedia, Inc." If someone from Billboard were to read these articles, they could be able to press legal action (at least according to this disclaimer). I don't thin we can even claim fair use, especially if we're reprinting nearly every chart position for each song (and an entire trajectory as well). --FuriousFreddy 11:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know, but might we be OK because we're not reproducing charts, only the information regarding one single or album each time? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:31, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

It says they own the actual chart information; not sure if they'd make the distinction between reprints of the entire chart or reprints of chart info for one song or album. I still say we don't need the grand majority of most of these charts (only the important ones, depending upon the artist); much of this is just glut, and means next to nothing to most readers (even prsons familiar w/ chart data like me don't really care to want to read most of this for each song...at least not in an encyclopedia article). --FuriousFreddy 23:42, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

As I've mentioned before, I'm more or less on the same page withFuriousFreddy vis a vis the need for extremely detailed tables of chart positions. I find myself a little perplexed about VNU eMedia's claim. Is this a claim that accompanies transfer of the data ("Don't publish our RSS feed without our permission!") or are they really saying that every number that Billboard publishes is their intellectual property? I find the latter difficult to imagine. Jkelly 23:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

My thinking is that they likely own (or at least are attempting to protect) the rights to their chart information (because if we, a 💕, reprint all the important information here, who's going to read Billboard?). I couldn't imagine them trying to sue everyone who reprints Hot 100 data, but I just don't think it's sensible to reprint all the component charts and such (and that, I think, is where legality might become a problem). As I've stated before, the whole over-detailed chart listing/analysis thing just seems like padding for what would in many cases either be (a) stubs or (b) easily mergable paragraphs. I think a lot of music fans tend to want to praise their idols by presenting their successes and such in as much detail possible. But encyclopedia articles should be reasonably concise and easy to read. --FuriousFreddy 00:05, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

And a metaquestion: Why is this here? I wanted to talk about it on its discussion page, but this is the discussion page. A slip? Or anyway, can it be moved to the corresponding "project page"? -- Hoary 14:26, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I put it here because it's just a discussion at the moment. If consensus can be reached, the result could be made into a non-Talk page. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:31, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to make a comment: Cool (song) is a featured article that I had been working on for approximately three weeks before it achieved its status. However, there was an issue with it becoming a featured article during the nomination: several people opposed the nomination because the charts were not unified. So I merged them so the article could achieve the status; but there is absolutely no way that I want charts unified. I'd be willing to risk its achievement for separate charts—did you honestly think I was going to give up on it because a little group of mischievious beings wanted charts to be one? Never; I'm not that kind of person. But my mind has been changed. As long as certain users are on this site (User:Mel Etitis in particular; I'm beginning to question his presence here on Misplaced Pages, and User:Hoary, who I feel (not know for a fact) wants Misplaced Pages to run according to him), I will let "Cool" lose its FA status. Also, if this occurs, I'm departing from Misplaced Pages.

"Cool" is being used against us. --Winnermario 01:33, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I think these statements you made clearly show that you're more interested in compromising the accuracy and uniform formatting of an article simply to stamp your feet and demand to have things done your way, regardless of what the rest of the community may think. You would really rather have an article not achieve its status just because you don't want the tables merged? What does that behavior say about you as a contributor to this project?

...but there is absolutely no way that I want charts unified. I'd be willing to risk its achievement for separate charts—did you honestly think I was going to give up on it because a little group of mischievious beings wanted charts to be one? Never; I'm not that kind of person...

-- eo 21:39, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Apparently I am the only one. I'd advise you to think before you speak. --Winnermario 00:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Huh? Umm, I did. -- eo 01:12, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Laughable. --Winnermario 01:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Another brilliant arguement. I'm asking you to explain what you mean. You're "the only one" what? I'm to "think before I speak" regarding what? How does your retort even relate to what I said? Do you mean to say that you just made up the whole part about how you'd "leave Misplaced Pages" if the article lost its FA status due to the tables being separated according to your preference? I assumed this whole topic isn't about you, it's about collectively putting together ideas for a standardized table for singles pages and discographies. Or am I "not thinking" again? -- eo 02:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Putting aside all this talk of "feelings", "mischeivious beings", etc etc, I'm interested by Winnermario's statement that there is absolutely no way that I want charts unified. I presume that there are rational arguments for this. What are these? I've already asked here but got no answer. Or is it instead just a matter of "feelings"? (As in "Feelings, ah ah ah feelings. Feelings of lurv" maybe. And what, there's no article yet on that monument of schlock?) -- Hoary 04:21, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Please learn to spell argument.

To User:Hoary, of course I have my reasons. These are what they are: unified charts are bloody ugly, and make it look like this long list. Two, when you're reading about the U.S. Billboard charts, the next chart is suddenly from Canada or the U.K. or something. This doesn't prove to be very logical as it seems as though the editors are cramming a pile of information to save space. Next, the removal of "#" from the charts is probably one of the stupidest things someone wants to attempt—why in the world would someone do that? Then it will read "1" over "#1". Position 1? That makes no sense whatsoever. Also, you continue to claim your unified charts as NPOV. Well in case you have failed to notice (which you have), my community thinks that unified charts are POV, but you simply ignore this.

I'd also like to point something out—my assumption that your community prefers unified charts is because of width. With separate charts, the width of the overall box will be longer or shorter depending on a chart that it was capable of charting on. That's most certainly my theory. --Winnermario 18:42, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

You realize that by pointing out something as inane as a small typo, you failed (again) to explain or answer any of the questions I or anyone else asked. Coming here and making comments like "stupidest things ever" doesn't convince anyone of your point-of view. So why don't you explain to everyone here how the combining of tables shows POV (besides exclaiming they're "bloody ugly")? Just saying "my community says so" doesn't really address anything. I happen to think the # symbol is "bloody ugly". Do you accept that as a legitimate reason for their removal? -- eo 20:20, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that User:Mel Etitis has been reverting daily and/or weekly updated information from Because of You (Kelly Clarkson song) and Hollaback Girl. Notably in Hollaback Girl are his edits of removing Notes that I added which were made by music critics. "Because of You" Evidence, "Hollaback Girl" Evidence. There had better be a good reason for this. --Winnermario 18:53, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

What does that have to do with singles tables? -- eo 20:20, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

An interesting comment made by Mel Etitis. It appears as though he is the only user who can never understand what I am typing; perhaps he can't read, because that's the sense I'm receiving. I am an English college major, so I don't believe that I am making no sense at all, because it's a laughable case. Also, the comments made on that page are odd—Mel Etitis obviously doesn't know about a Misplaced Pages policy, due to these being quotes and are placed in a "Notes" section. He is also convinced that we are reverting his articles. What? We aren't reversing any of your edits except for the bad ones. If you'd like to check the Hollaback Girl history, you will see what I mean. --Winnermario 20:13, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Can we please move all of this discussion about User:Mel Etitis somewhere else? Jkelly 20:39, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I suppose we could, but I want my questions answered first. --Winnermario 23:53, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Allow me to begin speaking. I was going to put this off, hoping that I needn't have to include my two cents. But Winnermario, you can't do this on your own, but I envy your perseverance. Ericorbit, you have some explaining to do. The fact that Winnermario wrote this: "I'd also like to point something out—my assumption that your community prefers unified charts is because of width. With separate charts, the width of the overall box will be longer or shorter depending on a chart that it was capable of charting on" and you choosing to ignore it sparks a fuse. Apparently she caught something that isn't being revealed. I'd like to know what this is. And how are unified charts POV? Well because a whole bunch of lists are placed into one huge box. That's not very good or professional-looking. As mentioned above, it definitely looks like it is serving as a wall to save space. Whereas when they are separate, there is no emphasis being placed on the Billboard charts — I would actually like to know who the hell originally said this. The separate charts serve as a worldwide basis, and then the Billboard basis, but there is no emphasis. It's just placing charts. The fact that this argument is ongoing is quite notrotious; why in the world are you people yelling at each other because of chart layouts? A waste of time. Come to a conclusion, and complete these idiotic RfCs and other things.

Mentioning Mel Etitis' reverts is notable here because it is a relation to music, although not necessarily the tables. Something has to be done with him as I'd go as far as calling it vandalism, based on the links Winnermario provided us with. --DrippingInk 00:15, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Some explaining to do about what? The width or length of a table has nothing to do with whether the info inside the table shows POV. Seperating the tables and putting prominence on the US charts (particularly if the artist is not American) shows a bias. -- eo 00:30, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

A load of bloody bullcrap! That is your POINT OF VIEW! It is your point of view that placing prominence on the U.S. charts should not be if the artist is not American. It is your point of view that we are even placing a prominence. It is your point of view. So you will quit telling us that our ways are POV, because if they are, you're just as bad as us. --Winnermario 00:31, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Winnermario: Just wanted to say thanks for your nasty and offensive comment on my Talk Page. How nice that your true colors are coming through for everyone to see. It is so very intelligent to throw out personal and disparaging insults when you aren't getting your way. You're really going to go far in life with that attitude. I'm sure acting in such a manner will greatly help your position with regard to this topic as well. Congratulations. -- eo 00:58, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

My position in this battle regards chart tables — not the coversations we've been having. Also, I see you ignored the fact that I called your opinion POV. And you know why you ignored it? Because I'm right. You know I am. --Winnermario 01:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Uhh, no I do not believe you are right. I didn't address it in my last comment because I have already explained why I feel seperated tables are POV. You obviously just can't grasp the concept, so I'm not going to explain it repeatedly. And for you, who have answered not one of my questions, to accuse me of "ignoring" something is rather arrogant. Please don't even try to pretend that the comment you made on my talk page has nothing to do with what is going on here; it is a direct retaliation to points I have raised on this page. Not getting your way in a discussion? Hmm, why not go to the person's talk page and make some personal insults? Great strategy. -- eo 01:10, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

You're not right. I think the problem is that you're misinterpreting what "POV" and "NPOV" mean. NPOV is not "my point of view is that Chart A looks right and Chart B looks wrong". As Misplaced Pages editors, we are all committed to NPOV — a neutral point of view. In terms of these charts, what that means is that all charts, from all countries, get the same amount of prominence on the page. That, unless you can come up with an NPOV alternative, equals unified charts. More than one chart, with one being "United States" and the other "Everywhere Else", inherently violates Neutral Point of View, not even by suggesting that the US charts are somehow "better" but simply by implying that they're different. There's no reason I'm aware of for the charts to be separated that doesn't present a POV problem, and if there is I would be interested in reading it. --keepsleeping say what 01:10, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

You're not right. Go back to bed, Keepsleeping. I very well know what NPOV and POV charts are—the fact that you bring this up makes you look stupid and quite ignorant. You are weeding your way through this, and think that you are going to win by informing me of things I already know. As I have mentioned above, your chart is as POV as ours is. And I have provided my reasons for why yours is POV. --Winnermario 01:19, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Please consult Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks. I've read this discussion a few times over, and I'm afraid I can't understand the reasons as to why Winnermario, DrippingInk and others feel than combined charts are POV, while separated charts aren't. Yes, both of you have said things like "unified charts are bloody ugly...it seems as though the editors are cramming a pile of information to save space" and "that's not very good or professional-looking", but I don't see how this relates to the argument that the combined charts violate Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy. I feel that it would be better to try and save space that waste it, especially when splitting the tables looks rather odd, as in this version of The Trouble with Love Is. I provided a list of reasons (largely derived from the discussions at Talk:The Trouble with Love Is and Talk:One Sweet Day) on why some users prefer combined charts below, but I'll reprint them here so people won't have to scroll down:

1. Separating the U.S. and non-U.S. charts, particularly on articles about singles by non-American musicians, suggests that the U.S. charts are somehow more important or significant because they are in a separate table from the rest. This introduces a slightly biased, POV (point of view) slant to the article that is not appropriate to an encylopedic article intended to be read by visitors from around the globe.
2. The section headers "U.S." and "World" implies that the U.S. is extra-terrestrial. Those words are not antonyms.
3. "U.S." and "International" are not antonyms neither. As mentioned above, Misplaced Pages isn't just read by Americans, so referring to everywhere outside the U.S. as "International" is frankly rather insulting.
4. Section headers separating tables create a rather choppy effect, especially when there are only a few charts mentioned at all.
5. A lot of the U.S. Billboard charts presented in the tables are unimportant and could be trimmed, as FuriousFreddy has pointed out. Misplaced Pages isn't just read by Billboard magazine readers and chart enthusiasts.
6. Combined charts save space on the page, as well as a few bytes.
7. Separating identical tables for no apparent reason is also rather confusing.

Extraordinary Machine 14:37, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

1. Here is where you are incorrect. "U.S. Billboard" and "World" mean two different things. --Hollow Wilerding 21:43, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
2. Here is where you are correct.
3. I only partially agree with you. --Hollow Wilerding 21:43, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
4. You are correct. But omitting the "Hot 100 Airplay" and "Pop 100 Airplay" is unnecessary, considering they determine the position of the actual chart they are componenting. --Hollow Wilerding 21:43, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
5. A good observation, but is this really necessary? --Hollow Wilerding 21:43, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
6. This is where you are the most incorrect — you fail to realize that there is a reason, and that is the charts call different nations home, most especially the Billboard charts. --Hollow Wilerding 21:43, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Apparently this argument has gotten out of end, and I seem to agree with both ends of the parties. User:Winnermario is correct about both sides of the charts being POV, while User:Extraordinary Machine has provided some useful points. My opinion is that a chart of which both parties can agree on be produced; arguing over it in an article that is about to extend 50 kilobytes is rather questioning. --Hollow Wilerding 21:43, 5 November 2005 (UTC) This is this user's second edit. The first was the creation of their userpage. Jkelly 22:04, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

The above was my second edit. But was there perchance any necessary reason to having pointed that out? If it has to do with my limited knowledge on this discussion, then you are ignorant. However, if it's because you are attempting to clear something that is currently cloudy with other users about myself, then could you explain what that might be? --Hollow Wilerding 22:48, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

This is a straw poll to help determine consensus. Misplaced Pages is not an experiment in democracy, however, and considerations beyond a simple tally are important. Since it is policy to always assume good faith, editors will sometimes note when someone participating in a consensus-building discussion is brand new to Misplaced Pages. This helps to prevent endless accusations of sockpuppetry and keep a consensus-building discussion civil after a user demonstrates familiarity with Misplaced Pages that is unexpected, or displays anomalous editing behaviour. I hope that clears things up. Jkelly 23:02, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

My Two Cents (OK, maybe six cents)

"single" articles

All of the above examples are not to my liking. However, if they are featured on an article specifically for a particular single, then it does not bother me as much. The example showing the song title over and over again in the column is not good at all. The table which has a new line per chart is much better. The chart trajectory thing is totally excessive, that is something that belongs on an artist's website or fan page, not in an encyclopedia.

The whole "World" term and lumping all non-US counties into a seperate table clearly shows POV. A much preferable template (if none above are chosen) is one simple table with atist's home-country listed first and other country chart peaks following, the US data obtained from Billboard Hot 100. For an artist with a very extensive history in a particular genre (i.e. R&B chart, dance chart, country chart), then I believe those stats are ok as well.

"artist" articles

I worked on some of these, so my bias will show here:

• Good tables: Prince (artist), Eurythmics, Madonna discography (singles), Bananarama, Siouxsie & the Banshees, Sarah McLachlan
• Bad tables: Erasure (singles), Foo Fighters, The White Stripes, The Beloved, Electronic (band), Morrissey, Thompson Twins, 10,000 Maniacs, Beck

bad, bad, bad

• Repeating the same text throughout an entire column ("It's Like That" table, above)
• Incomplete info, i.e. including only songs in a table for which editor has chart info, while ignoring all other releases.
• Taking certain song titles from a text-list (bullet item list) and putting them in a table while leaving all the other titles in the old text-list.
• Boldfacing the chart positions, particularly number ones
• Including weeks spent at number one
• Using the # (number) symbol preceding the chart position.
• Automatically listing U.S. peaks first, especially when the artist isn't American.
• Updating peak positions week-by-week as a song climbs the chart

I realize I'm being nitpicky and longwinded, but a lot of music article discography tables in Misplaced Pages look like sloppy, incomplete, biased crap with half-assed research done. -- eo 18:37, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Yikes. I'm guilty of number 2 at Temptations discography (I didn't go on past 1976 becasue I don't have copies of many of those later songs to identify lead vocalists. What should be done?). Number 4 is one of my biggest pet peeves...it's like "ooo look! My favorite musician got a number-one record! Yay!". As far as updating peak positions week-by-week, most editors are prone to add singles as they come out. Should we just hold off listing a peak until after the song's chart-run is pretty-much over (unless, of course, the song hits number-one)?

Well I have suggested in several pages (agreed by some editors, ignored by others) that perhaps a symbol or some kind of indicator be placed next to the number to show "song is still charting" or something to that effect.... I think thats a good compromise for those who want to go in every week and update the new chart position. haha the Temptations table doesnt look too bad... are you only missing vocal info or do you need the chart placings as well for the later singles? -- eo 00:35, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Just missing the vocal info, which I have for about 40% of them. --FuriousFreddy 03:05, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with all of eo's points except the second; adding partial information, hoping that other editors can fill the gaps is surely what Misplaced Pages is all about. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:22, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Mel, I totally understand what you're saying, the point I was really trying to make was in reference to tables that, say, list only two songs (when an artist clearly has released many more than two) and/or a table filled with question marks (which I've seen many times). Just seems a bit sloppy to me. And I've done what I can in most cases, for example, I think I'm missing one or two chart peaks for Sinead O'Connor, so I put a note on her talk page. Yet, I know Prince had a very long US R&B chartography so I held off on adding that column until I was able to do a lot of searching and get the whole history. Just seems like common sense is not being used in many cases. -- eo 15:51, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I see what you mean, and I agree that in some (many?) cases it's just carelessness or impatience not to wait until an editor has enough information. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:54, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Another proposal

How about we really cut some of this on down and use some discresion as far as what to include and what not to include. We don't need the music section of Misplaced Pages becoming the Billboard microfiche library or anything:

"It's Like That" debuted at number fifty-three on the Billboard Hot 100, and remained on the chart for twenty weeks. It was Carey's seventh number-one single on the Billboard Hot Dance Music/Maxi-Singles Sales, and her ninth on the Billboard Hot Dance Music/Club Play chart.

The above text should be somewhere in the prose, not in an appendix to the article.

What went and why?

1. U.S. Billboard Hot 100 Singles Sales and U.S. Billboard Hot 100 Airplay. These are used by Billboard to calculate the Hot 100 chart positions. It's not really neccessary to list them unless, for some reason, a song didn't appear on the Hot 100, but did appear on one of these. The same goes for U.S. Billboard Pop 100 Airplay, U.S. Billboard Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Singles Sales, and U.S. Billboard Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Airplay.
2. U.S. Billboard Dance Radio Airplay, U.S. Billboard Hot Ringtones, and U.S. Billboard Top 40 Tracks, becasue the inclusion of these charts is somewhat excessive, given their limited notability to most people not in the music industry or grossly interested in it.
3. Any and all bold number ones. Inherently POV. If you don't understand that number one is as high as you can get, then there might be a problem.
4. The chart trajectory. Do we really need to know exactly how a song performed week-by-week on the U.S. chart, in the context of an encyclopedia article?

--FuriousFreddy 00:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I've altered my "improved version" to omit "#"s and bolding. I agree about the chart trajectory, and in principle about the excess charts (though I'm happy to admit that I've never seen any of these charts, and don't know enough to decide which is important and which isn't). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:37, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Remove "#"'s? Whoa, now this is funny. People reading the chart will assume "1". 1 what? --Winnermario 21:20, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

well, what else could it possibly mean? are there # symbols in the columns when you look at a Billboard chart? or inside the Joel Whitburn Billboard books? Do you know for certain that International readers of Misplaced Pages also use "#" to abbreviate the word "number"? It's totally redundant. -- eo 21:30, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

The column title "Position" might give a hint, too. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:16, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the column title "Position" might give a hint. But you don't know if it will. And User:Ericorbit, you are assuming. Of course Billboard doesn't use "#", because that's a chart site where it's evident that # is irrelevant. If you're going to a website that features chart positions, etc, no # is necessary. However, Misplaced Pages is full of information, and we can't be vague. That's exactly what User:Mel Etitis said about placing the Wikilink TRL retired videos in music single articles where a video "retired" on MTV'S TRL. Without the Wikilink, he said it had been too vague. Evidence The same situation occurs here. --Winnermario 18:42, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Well how would you know that readers will know what "#" indicates? You're talking about numbers shown in a table, within a column, with a "position" or "peak position" heading at the top, in an article where the table itself is placed in a section called "discography" or "chart placings" or something similar. How can there be confusion as to what the number means if the # symbol isn't there? -- eo 20:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I already explained myself. Vague. --Winnermario 23:53, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Hm, I've been thinking of removing the R&B, dance and rock charts. They don't prove to be very useful to the charts, and can only be included depending on the genre of a song. --Winnermario 00:31, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Yet another proposal

This is essentially a combination of FuriousFreddy's proposal above and the charts table at Cool (song):

• * Mel Etitis remix.
• ** FuriousFreddy remix.

The "Year" column should probably be excluded from chart tables unless the years are different for some charts. I'm not familiar enough with Misplaced Pages markup to properly format the asterixes, though. Extraordinary Machine 22:00, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Also, after re-reading Talk:The Trouble with Love Is and Talk:One Sweet Day, I have written a summary of reasons for why users may be against separated tables and superfluous columns:

1. Separating the U.S. and non-U.S. charts, particularly on articles about singles by non-American musicians, suggests that the U.S. charts are somehow more important or significant because they are in a separate table from the rest. This introduces a slightly biased, POV (point of view) slant to the article that is not appropriate to an encylopedic article intended to be read by visitors from around the globe.
2. The section headers "U.S." and "World" implies that the U.S. is extra-terrestrial. Those words are not antonyms.
3. "U.S." and "International" are not antonyms neither. As mentioned above, Misplaced Pages isn't just read by Americans, so referring to everywhere outside the U.S. as "International" is frankly rather insulting.
4. Section headers separating tables create a rather choppy effect, especially when there are only a few charts mentioned at all.
5. A lot of the U.S. Billboard charts presented in the tables are unimportant and could be trimmed, as FuriousFreddy has pointed out. Misplaced Pages isn't just read by Billboard magazine readers and chart enthusiasts.
6. Combined charts save space on the page, as well as a few bytes.
7. Separating identical tables for no apparent reason is also rather confusing.
8. Readers don't need to be reminded of the song's title every time a chart is mentioned. If it was a remix or radio edit or computer-aided moon-June-soon (thanks, Hoary :)) version of the song that charted, add in an asterix or something and mention it at the bottom of the chart.
9. Same with the year of release. Unless it was different for different charts, there's no reason for a superfluous column where every cell reads the same. Extraordinary Machine 22:27, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

further tweaking EM's version

(abbreviated to not take up space)

1. remix version featuring Lil Kim, Mel Etitis, Jay-Z, Furious Freddy, Celine Dion, Hoary, Rob Zombie, JKelly, Barbra Streisand, Marilyn Manson and the Cast of The Facts Of Life
2. Extrodinary Machine club remixes

• using superscript numbers instead of asterisks (I've done this in a few places)
• centering the column with the numbers
• wikilinking the chart names

I'm thining the "year" column could be necessary, as sometimes it varies between different countries. -- eo 23:07, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

• • There may need to be a year designation of some kind, though not necessarily a year column; say one of these singles is on the chart now but reaches its peak position two months from now, in January 2006. I suppose this is how it would be done:

--keepsleeping say what 01:52, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I am afraid that this chart has gone too far. It's not that I don't like it (actually, I don't like it), but this chart works to my personal best:

• * Mel Etitis remix.

Anything that was proposed after this chart is pushing the limit. Wikilinks are not required in the chart as they will appear in the "Chart performance" portion of the article. Excessive use of wikilinks is unnecessary, and is like an advertisement for its article — we really don't need to be pushing buttons. Also, from my developing knowledge of this argument (addressed by User:Winnermario), it appears as though "#" has been omitted. As much as I agree that it does not really add to the charts, it should be replaced. I am new here on Misplaced Pages, and when I read the heading "Position", the first thing that came to my mind was "Position number", which lead down a path of disturbing images. So I would recommend the presence of "#" in the charts. Other than that, everything else that has been addressed seems to be in the process of cleaning — I would really like a consensus to be met as this is one of the most asinine arguments I've ever stumbled upon. --Hollow Wilerding 21:43, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Poll

Well, perhaps a poll would be useful, in order to gauge consensus (though everyone who's bothered to post here seems to support the unified and stripped-down version, as do the good people over at Featured articles candidates). Could people say whether they support or reject the new version; if they support part of the change but not all, could they say so in the support section? In each case, as we're gauging consensus rather than merely voting, could editors do more than simply register their names in the appropriate places, but give reasons *which can be discussed above)?

Support

Including support for part but not all of the new changes (please specify). If you agree with FuriousFreddy's proposal to ditch the "Chart trajectory" and to slim down the number of charts mentioned, please say so.
Note: I've altered the improved tables to incorporate the removal of "#" (I hope that we can assume that readers recognise a number when they see one) and of the bolding of "1".

• I have a preference for using featured articles as models in general, for using Cool (song) as a model for current pop music song articles in specific, and would also express a hope that chart data will be moved to Wikidata when that project is ready. Jkelly 17:50, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

• Partial support. Although I much prefer the trimmed-down version, I still don't see the honest need for a lot of this. Allmusic.com doesn't go into this level of chart detail, so why should we? Let me make a proposal above. --FuriousFreddy 00:08, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

• Support FuriousFreddy's pared-down version --keepsleeping say what 04:43, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I'd also like to come out in opposition to the bolding of "#1" on charts — it is, as has been mentioned, POV; this was brought up in the Featured Article discussion of Cool (song) and the bolding was removed (), then re-added () after the article was Featured. --keepsleeping say what 04:53, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
• Support the proposal I made (though I'd be happy with FuriousFreddy's version), for the reasons I listed above. However, I'm not sure that a poll would be the way to decide on the course of action for this issue: remember where polls left discussions such as Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/O Holy Night (Mariah Carey song) and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Sylk. Extraordinary Machine 22:33, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I now support keepsleeping's even sleeker version. Extraordinary Machine 14:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
• support keepsleeping's latest version getcrunk juice 22:53, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
• Support the newest slimmed down version. I'm not opposed to chart trajectories though. Tuf-Kat 17:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
• Neutral. This discussion is rather useless and provides little addition to Misplaced Pages. --Hollow Wilerding 21:43, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Reject

Rejection of all the proposed changes.

• Strong reject. I have stated some of my reasons. I don't need to go any further. --Winnermario 00:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
• Strong reject. Separate charts are not POV, regardless of how convinced my opposition feels. --DrippingInk 00:15, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
• Neutral. This discussion is rather useless and provides little addition to Misplaced Pages. --Hollow Wilerding 21:43, 5 November 2005 (UTC)