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Fritzpoll has found himself in need of sitting down and getting stuck in to his PhD work and a couple of other real-life project and will temporarily halt editing on January 17th, but will find himself back on Misplaced Pages in mid-February. Fritzpoll also apologises for the short notice and for referring to himself in the third person

Further development

I am contacting you because your judgment plausibly closed a recent AfD thread -- with unanticipated consequences; and perhaps you can help in some way which mitigates the need to re-invent the wheel. Please see Talk:Inner Asia during the Tang Dynasty#Semi-protection needed. --Tenmei (talk) 16:00, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Responded at linked page Fritzpoll (talk) 17:22, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry for whatever can be construed as my part in the stressful exchanges of the past week. In retrospect, every well-intentioned contribution just made this situation worse because the most relevant factors were not within the ambit of anything written explicitly presented on the screen in front of me.

I regret the extent to which my contributions exacerbated a problem I was trying to mitigate. No one could have been more surprised than me as I continued producing the opposite of intended results. I'm not unsubtle; but all I can say at this point is that I will continue trying to learn from my mistakes. I know this isn't much of an apology; but there you have it. --Tenmei (talk) 15:28, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The German Student (radio)

Please userfy the 63 articles to a workspaces I have set up at User:MichelQSchmidt/sandbox/63 Radio Tales. I expect it will take several months of work, but feel I can combine and properly source these to meet concerns of the AfD. If not, I will then empty the workspaces and request CSD. Thank you, Schmidt, 20:04, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

They are all still there - you can move them without me :) I will move the single deleted article into your userspace for you Fritzpoll (talk) 09:25, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. I knew they were there (last I looked) but did not want to run into any GFDL problems. Should I actually "move" them.... or will copy-paste do as well? Schmidt, 18:14, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd actually move them, then the history is preserved and your additions will be made on top Fritzpoll (talk) 10:02, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. As you might suppose, it will take a while. Best, Schmidt, 17:21, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Neal Turner Article

• Hello, I understand that when the speedy deletion tag was removed, it was because the article asserted notability, not because it established it, but this artist has sold over 1700 paintings and is listed in several French art reference sites. As well as not being familiar with the art reference sites in France, not fluent in French and therefore unable to read what is written on those sites, the users voting for deletion seem to have a limited, general knowledge of contemporary art in France. It would seem to me that just selling over 1700 paintings by the age of 45, as this artist has done, is notable. Perhaps you missed that part of the discussion. Several points were never addressed. Also, if the article asserted notability, and references were provided to attest to that assertion, why would the question of deletion come up at that point? Thank you for your time. - Ulyssescoat (talk) 12:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

  The sources provided did not, in the eyes of participants in the discussion, give a sufficient ground to establish notability. "Notability" is, rather unfortunately, not used on Misplaced Pages in the same way as one might use it in the real world. Instead, it refers to a set of inclusion guidelines, in this case WP:N or WP:CREATIVE, that allow admission. The sources in the article appear to have failed to satisfy these policies on the issue of finding third-party, reliable sources that proved the subject was worthy of discussion. If you want more help, please feel free to ask, as I appreciate that Misplaced Pages can be a baffling place at times, and can be especially so when something has been deleted! If you really feel I've screwed this one up, you can ask the community for a deletion review, but I think we can chat a bit more before it comes to that. Best wishes Fritzpoll (talk) 12:46, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

  Thank you for your help. What you referred to was exactly what my concern was about. The question was not of notability itself, but, as you stated, failing to satisfy the WP:N guidelines on the issue of third-party reliable sources concerning notability. The sources provided were in France, as this is an American artist living in France. They are reliable and third-party. They are also in French, and while the Maison des Artistes is the main source, it contains all the information in the article. Also, the Maison des Artistes really is the most respected artist organization in France. The importance of their involvement in French contemporary art and with contemporary artists in France and the 'reliability' of the organization are well known in France. Also, while some of the discussion ended up being interesting and worthwhile, much of it seemed to be commentary by uninformed users. My impression was that this type of discussion in Misplaced Pages is not a vote, but based on valid arguments. Perhaps I am wrong. Misplaced Pages is a baffling place, and I would prefer to discuss this with you before asking the community for a deletion review. Thank you again for your help. - Ulyssescoat (talk) 13:14, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

  If you can hang tight until around this time tomorrow, I will conduct a more detailed review of my close and check the discussion. I didn't count votes, obviously, and did inform myself from the discussion, but I need some time to check what I might have missed. By this time tomorrow, I will have had time. Fritzpoll (talk) 13:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

  Thank you. Sorry if I implied that I thought you counted votes. I am unsure of how this process works, and learning as I go. I know that the number of 'votes' are not supposed to have a bearing on the outcome, but that kind of thing is hard to overlook, and as I stated in the discussion, after looking at the talk pages of the users involved, I noticed that, for the most part, they knew each other. While I'm sure they were trying to be objective, this was another aspect of the discussion that was, for me, hard to overlook. - Ulyssescoat (talk) 13:57, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

  No problem - talk to you tomorrow Fritzpoll (talk) 14:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Youtube Cat Abuse Incident

Hi, I was wondering if it would be possible to revisit your decision on the YouTube cat abuse incident. You deleted it citing WP:NOTNEWS. In my opinion, WP:NOTNEWS didn't really apply in this case, as the story had an extremely wide circulation, with stories being run by reliable sources in Ireland, the UK, and Russia, among other places. I think that the story had enough notability over and above a normal news story that that argument didn't apply. Thanks. Umbralcorax (talk) 15:16, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

You may wish to talk to the user above. They are merging the content into other, more appropriate articles with some minor assistance from me. :) My close of the discussion is not based on a personal preference or opinion on the topic, but on my interpretation of the arguments. In my interpretation, the arguments that WP:NOT#NEWS applies were stronger on the basis of the sources supplied at the time of deletion. You are welcome to challenge me further on this, and I will happily discuss it with you, or you can ask for outside input at a deletion review. Best wishes, Fritzpoll (talk) 15:30, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I am also asking that this be reconsidered. Both sides had reasonable arguments, and the numbers were roughly equivalent, so the closure should have been "no consensus." *** Crotalus *** 17:22, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Numbers are irrelevant :) The arguments were what I based it on, I saw lots of people saying notable, but mostly not really saying why, so the appeal to our policy of WP:NOT was stronger in the discussion that the appeal to the less important guideline of WP:N. As I always say to these comments, you are free to open a deletion review, but since the content has been/is being incorporated into other articles (see a couple of sections above this one), might I suggest the compromise of a redirect to the appropriate section of one of these articles? Fritzpoll (talk) 10:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Deletion review for YouTube cat abuse incident

An editor has asked for a deletion review of YouTube cat abuse incident. Since you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedy-deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. WikiScrubber (talk) 20:55, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Yvonne Bradley article

I see you closed an {{afd}} on the article Yvonne Bradley. I would have participated in this afd, if I had been aware of it.

Personally, I think the redirection was a mistake. My understanding of the deletion policy is that a decision not to keep an article should be based on the merits of covering the topic -- not on the current state of the article. Have I got that right?

I spent some time looking for references. User:Geo Swan/Guantanamo/rescue/Yvonne Bradley. I think there are lots of good references to support an independent article on Lieutenant Colonel Bradley. Geo Swan (talk) 03:44, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

On an unrelated point, why did you choose to redirect to a sub-section heading? Wikilinks from one article to another are well supported by the underlying wikimedia software. But redirection to a sub-section heading is very poorly supported.

Wikilinks from one full article to another full article don't break when an article is moved from one name to another. This is a very powerful advantage the wikimedia software provides to ordinary world-wide-web pages, where links break all the time.

And the wikimedia software properly supports "what links here" -- another related very powerful advantage the wikimedia software has over ordinary world-wide-web pages -- where you can really have no clue what other pages link to the current page. The wikimedia software has no equivalent for "what links here" when a wikilink is to a subsection heading in another article, or within the same article. If the subsection heading is changed, even a minor change in capitalization, spelling or punctuation, will break links to a sub-section heading.

Over and above the problem with the minor changes in the subsection heading breaking this kind of wikilinks, there is no mechanism for good faith contributors to check first to see whether an edit to a section heading will break wikilinks -- because the software won't report that the section heading is the target of wikilinks.

Would it be desirable to have wikilinks at a more precise level of granularity than the article level? Sure -- provided it didn't complicate the wikimedia markup language and wikimedia interface. Without claiming to be a talented software designer I can't think of how to add this functionality, while having the interface remain simple to use.

So, in my opinion, while it is technically possible to link to sub-section heading, I think it should be deprecated in article space. Geo Swan (talk) 03:46, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough - if you haven't already done so, I will try to get round to fixing the redirect. As to your disagreement with my close, I can only say that this outcome was the balance of the discussion - do your sources show notability independent of her involvement in this case? Best wishes Fritzpoll (talk) 08:03, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

With regard to "notability independent of her involvement in this case..." -- a couple of years ago a wag suggested that the article on UK Prime Minister Tony Blair should really be redirected to the article George W. Bush -- because no one would have ever have heard of him if it weren't for his support of Bush's war policies. The wag suggested that the Tony Blair article lapsed from BLP1E -- that the "one event" was his support of George W. Bush. While this wag was kidding I think he made a very valid point about the essential arbitrariness arguing whether someone's notability was dependent on, or independent of someone else's. That wag could have dug up many articles and editorials that described Blair as "Bush's poodle".

Back in 2006, during the earlier Presidentially authorized military commissions, Bradley faced possible contempt charges. Mohammed had told her he didn't want a military defense counsel, that he didn't trust military defense counsels. Bradley told Kohlmann, the Presiding Officer, that her understanding of the Illinois Bar regulations were that she could be disbarred, permanently lose her liscense to practice law, if she agreed to comply with her orders to represent Mohammed against his will.

Bradley was quoted, extensively, in a 2008 paper in the Stanford Law Review, about the enormous difficulties of establishing trust with one's clients, in a prison where one's clients were completely cut off from their family and from all other news of the outside world.

I know some contributors might argue that an article on Bradley would lapse from compliance with BLP1E. I strongly disagree. Many times I find what proponents of BLP1E consider "one event" are really multiple events. Being killed in the WTC during 9-11 -- that would be a good example of BLP1E. But Bradley:

1. Claimed she faced being disbarred if she followed her orders to defend Mohammed against his will in 2006. Faced punishment for her stand, plead the fifth amendment;
2. Had mulitple article published under her name about her experiences in high profile publications'
3. Has been profiled and interviewed in multiple high profile publications;
4. Met with UK cabinet minister David Milliband;
5. Reported that she found Mohammed's weight so severely reduced during her last visit to him at Guantanamo, that she feared his death was imminent and that he could die while the release negotiations were underway;

When someone's lawyer remains faceless, when their own views remain unknown, I agree they don't merit independent coverage. I suggest this is far from the case with Bradley

Are you familiar with Ted Nelson's work? He designed a system, forty years ago, which would have been more powerful and more useful than the wikipedia. He is the guy who coined the term "hypertext". He foresaw the power of bidirectional links, way back in the days of punch cards and batch processing. And one of the important points he made was that the hierarchies of experts were arbitrary. Alternate disciplines established alternate heirarchies.

Nelson was, remains, a great visionary. And the vision he saw, which I follow, is that projects like his, and like the wikipedia, allow the reader to be in control, allow the reader to navigate their own path. That long, detailed Stanford Law Review article I mentioned focuses on the lawyers, and, in that article, their clients are of secondary importance.

If we shoehorn the material on Bradley into the article on Mohammed, we are really establishing, or encouraging, an arbitrary heirarchy, that Mohammed is more important than Bradley. But, if you were a reader who wanted to research lawyers who faced contempt charges; lawyers who faced disbarrment; lawyers forced to plead the fifth amendment; lawyers who found their clients dying before their eyes; you really need the coverage of Bradley to be in an article about Bradley.

There are times when a merge and redirect is appropriate But, in general, if a topic is worth linking to, I would suggest it is worth an article of its own -- at least until such time that links within articles are as well supported as links between one full article and another.

Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 19:30, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Neal Turner Article

• Hello, I was wondering if you've had time to review the discussion. Thank you. - Ulyssescoat (talk) 08:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

  Ah yes, give me two mins to gather my thoughts over coffee.... Fritzpoll (talk) 08:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

  Take your time, as that is exactly what I am doing... - Ulyssescoat (talk) 08:35, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I've reviewed the sources for the article, and here are my comments:

• Two of the four sources point to , which, from what I have read in the FAQ is essentially a self-submission site. You have to be the member of a particular group, provide them with details, and I notice that you can edit the page yourself (FAQ 9). These are not reliable sources to establish notability, because they are self-published. For example, I could set up a webpage tomorrow saying that I am an artist specialising in fine art, whereas in reality I can barely draw. From our perspective, these sources are self-published and so cannot determine notability.
• I can't get at the other two sources, for obvious reasons (they are paper-based) but I can assess them based on the materials that they are used to reference. Specifically they reference Mr. Turner's first solo exhibition. Looking at our guidance at WP:CREATIVE, which covers Mr. Turner's field, this is nowhere near the standard required for a Misplaced Pages entry.

If you can find additional sources that you can show me meet the bullet points at WP:CREATIVE, I will happily reconsider. If you still think I'm wrong (I won't take offence), I suggest that you open up a deletion review and get more feedback, but I honestly think that, for now, Neal Turner's biography does not meet our inclusion requirements. Fritzpoll (talk) 09:54, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

• Well, it's true that the Maison des Artistes site, artistescontemporains.org, requires that the artist upload photographs of their work, and in that sense it is self-submission, but it is somewhat more complicated than that, as to be able to upload photographs the artist has to belong to the Maison des Artists, and I'm not sure what the English translation of this is, but the artist has have had done de cotisation, which means that the artist must have contributed money to the Maison des Artistes, and for this to be necessary the artist must make a certain sum of money each year from the sale of their work. I'm not sure of what exactly that sum is, although I think it is considerable as it is based on the amount required to pay taxes on the income. There are thousands of artists in the Maison des Artistes, but comparable few of them fall into this category. In this context, the artist is assumed to be legit. In any case, all artists provide photographs of their work to publications, be they print or online. The question seems to be is the source reliable, and I agree that if you look at the front page it seems as if any artist could upload anything they wanted, but if you examine the process more closely you will find that this is not the case, and that inclusion in this site requires much more, basically that the artist be a contributing member of the Maison des Artistes. The sites states that the site "est réservée aux membres de l'association MdA, à jour de cotisation au moment de la demande d’inscription à « artistes contemporains.org (is reserved for 'contributing' members of the association the Maison des Artistes at the moment of they join the site). I also referenced a gallery, http://www.olivergallery.com/portfolio.html, but for some reason that was removed, and I found a page on eBay that shows the artist's work in the film, The Double Born, as well as two gallery shows, http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=blast1915, but I did not have time to list that reference as I did not understand what was happening and why the other reference had been removed. I don't know if the artist is notable enough to be listed in Misplaced Pages, but as there are other contemporary artists listed in Misplaced Pages with less notability, less references and less exposure, and in that respect I don't see why this artist would not be listed. I contacted one of the users, in the beginning of this, about the notability tag placed on the article, and basically I did not understand what was meant by notability and wanted help as I had made the mistake of thinking that that notability had been established in the first discussion, and two minutes later he or she left the message "I don't have time for this BS." Two minutes after that the article was nominated to be deleted. The article had existed for over a year without any references. I placed the references on it and that was how this started. I'm not sure I understand why. - Ulyssescoat (talk) 10:52, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

  Alas, I fear that membership of the body and making lots of money as an artist probably doesn't qualify for our notability guidelines. I'm sorry if someone took it upon themselves to be deliberately rude to you as well when you asked a reasonable question. That should not be the norm around here. As to how this happened, somone came across the article, tagged it to place it in a category of articles that have uncertain notability. They seem to have decided that they couldn't find the sources and so sent it to be discussed at AfD. It wasn't because you added references - I suspect this was a coincidence of timing. Possibly your edits showed up in the recent changes lists and that attracted attention, but that is all. Sorry I can't be of more help on this point. Fritzpoll (talk) 11:03, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

  I understand. I wasn't trying to show that the artist made money, but that the reference to the Maison des Artistes is reliable. My discussion of membership was meant to show that the reference is reliable. And it is possible that it was a coincidence of timing. Do you think that the four sources in the article and the other two I listed above are not reliable and/or sufficient? - Ulyssescoat (talk) 11:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

  Just out of curiosity what are you doing your PhD in? I did a dissertation on periods of transition in philosophy. - Ulyssescoat (talk) 11:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

  Nothing so grand as that, I fear. My work is in the field of robotics - I don't tend to talk about it much because if I gave any more detail, people could easily find me. :) I am interested in philosophy though, albeit purely as an amateur student. As to your references, I feel they do little to establish notability per the guidance at WP:CREATIVE. Best, Fritzpoll (talk) 11:54, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

  Fair enough. I think that if I do decide to continue with the article, I'll find more references, and then rewrite and resubmit it. For now I'll leave it alone. Good luck with your work, and thank you for your help. - Ulyssescoat (talk) 12:11, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

  Not a problem - if you do find you want to do more work on it, I can userfy the existing page for you so that you don't have to work on it from scratch. Happy editing! Fritzpoll (talk) 12:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

  Thank you. - Ulyssescoat (talk) 12:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry

First time deletion review - was not at all meant as an attack on you, rather a comment on the improper application of policy. WikiScrubber (talk) 12:59, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Heh - don't think there was any attack, and whilst I disagree about the idea that policy was misapplied, I just thought it would have been helpful to discuss it with me first. Best wishes Fritzpoll (talk) 13:00, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Lightmouse

I may be out of place in asking this. As I'm sure you're aware, your fellow bot programmer Lightmouse is under heavy attack in the Date delinking arbitration case. Having perused the Bot Owners' Noticeboard and seen the quality of complaints there – soome of which appear very clearly justified – and seeing how courteous and responsive to complaints Lightmouse is by comparison, could you perhaps seeing your way to weighing in on the "Evidence" page to lend some support to Lightmouse? I believe that coming from you as a member of Bot Approvals Group, such commentary might carry more weight with arbitrators than the comments of a run-of-the-mill editor like myself.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 17:27, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. I'm not sure about this for several reasons, the most significant of which is that I'm not very familiar with Lightmouse. I'll give it some thought, but beware the dreaded WP:CANVASS.... Fritzpoll (talk) 17:34, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. My message above marks the first time that I've asked anyone not previously involved in the case to weigh in, so I don't think that I've run afoul of WP:CANVASS.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 17:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I know - I was just warning you to be careful in case my comment persuaded you to dash off notes to other people :) Fritzpoll (talk) 18:13, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

IBERIAN-GUANCHE INSCRIPTIONS

I have put up a request for arbitration because of your deletion. --Iberomesornix (talk) 19:00, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification, but I think we should try other steps in Dispute Resolution first. How about a deletion review? :) Fritzpoll (talk) 19:38, 5 March 2009 (UTC)