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Russia Top‑importance

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Russia Top‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Misplaced Pages. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Template:WP1.0

Rank	Country	GDP (millions of USD)
—	Template:Country data World World	54,311,608
—	European Union	16,830,100
1	United States	13,843,825
2	Japan	4,383,762
3	Germany	3,322,147
4	China	3,250,827
5	United Kingdom	2,772,570
6	France	2,560,255
7	Italy	2,104,666
8	Spain	1,438,959
9	Canada	1,432,140
10	Brazil	1,313,590
11	Russia	1,289,582
12	India	1,098,945
13	South Korea	957,053
14	Australia	908,826
15	Mexico	893,365

• Military

Rank	Country		Military expenditures (USD)	Date of information
—	Template:Country data World	World Total	1,200,000,000,000	2007 (projected est.)
—		NATO Total	849,875,309,000
1		United States	583,283,000,000	2008
—		European Union Total	311,920,000,000	2007
2		France	74,690,470,000	2008-2009
3		United Kingdom	68,911,000,000	FY 2008-09
4		China	59,000,000,000	2008
5		Germany	45,930,000,000	2008
6		Japan	41,750,000,000	2007
7		Russia	40,000,000,000	2008
8		Italy	32,600,000,000	2008 (est.)
9		Saudi Arabia	31,050,000,000	2008
10		South Korea	28,940,000,000	2008
11		India	26,500,000,000	2008-2009
12		Brazil	25,396,731,055	2008
13		Australia	20,727,710,000	2008
14		Canada	17,150,002,540	2008
15		Spain	15,792,207,000	2007

• Population

Rank	Country/territory/entity	Population	Date	% of world population	Source
—	Template:Country data World World	6,671,226,000	July 1, 2007	100%	UN estimate
1	People's Republic of China	1,439,023,000	December 25 2024	21.57%	Chinese Population clock
2	India	1,388,879,000	December 25 2024	20.82%	Indian Population clock
3	United States	338,962,000	December 25 2024	5.08%	Official USA Population clock
4	Indonesia	231,627,000		3.47%	UN estimate
5	Brazil	186,917,074	May 27, 2008	2.8%	Official Brazilian Population clock
6	Pakistan	214,868,000	December 25 2024	3.22%	Official Pakistani Population clock
7	Bangladesh	158,665,000		2.38%	UN estimate
8	Nigeria	148,093,000		2.22%	UN estimate
9	Russia	142,008,800	January 1, 2008	2.13%	Federal State Statistics Service
10	Japan	127,720,000	March 1, 2008	1.92%	Official Japan Statistics Bureau estimate
11	Mexico	106,535,000		1.6%	UN estimate
12	Philippines	88,574,614	August 1, 2007	1.33%	2007 Official NSO Census Results
13	Vietnam	87,375,000		1.31%	UN estimate
14	Germany	82,244,000	November 30, 2007	1.23%	Federal Statistics Office estimate
15	Ethiopia	77,127,000	July 2007	1.16%	Ethiopia Central Statistics Agency

Signsolid (talk) 08:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

But at PPP (Purchasing Power Parity) which is considered more accurate to measure a national product and it is used by the C.I.A. in its famous CIA Factbook, Russia´s GDP has surpassed already the United Kingdom and France and it is sixth in the World. Not so bad... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.53.111.55 (talk) 05:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

that's cool, this is not a forum to post your opinions, by the way Russia's economy is one of the fastest growing in the world and they're soon to overtake the UK as the second largest european economy by PPP, hope this helps Nightmare X (talk) 17:21, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry but I don't understand your reaction to Signsolid's post, Nightmare X. The question whether Russia is a superpower or not is relevant and he just responded to the claim that it is (posted here in May 2008 by Versace11 - see above) and provided us with convincing arguments (including numbers) which proved that Russia cannot be classified as a superpower. That's all. I know that it can be a bitter pill to swallow for some people but Misplaced Pages is about facts - not about inflating one's ego. I couldn't find anything inappropriate in his post. Just facts and numbers. Tomasz J Kotarba (talk) 11:37, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

This is not a forum for you to voice your communist sympathy towards Russia in hope that the Soviet Union will return one day. Sorry to disappoint you but Russia's never going to be a superpower again. Hey at the rate their population is falling, their territory being lost, and military rotting they might just be as poor, small, weak, and crappy as Chile soon? Signsolid (talk) 17:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

You just attacked editor Nightmare X, who by the way was not the user who posted the "Russia is a Superpower" topic. Nightmare X just came in here to remind you that this is not a general forum, to stay civil, be polite, and refrain from personal attacks. Too bad you didn't listen to him because you've just violated Misplaced Pages policy twice in a row.--71.112.145.211 (talk) 18:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, Russia is probably less Communist than any other major European state at the moment. Are you perhaps a Putinist agent aiming to provoke people into defending this country by making ridiculous statements? --217.172.29.4 (talk) 15:13, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

124.183.76.112 (talk) 13:05, 3 August 2008 (UTC) Russia's economy is growing by 8-10% every year. It has the worlds largest resource base, is technologically advanced and has a sizable well educated population that will stop shrinking by 2010, leveling out at around 140 million then rising again. It is also untouchable by any outside power thanks to it's nuclear arsenal, and large technologically advanced military compared to 90% of other states in the world.

It's only direction is forward, not backward. Russia will be a global power and global player as long as it maintains control of so much territory and natural wealth. With it's nuclear arsenal, which is just as capable as any other, and which does include the largest number of warheads stockpiled, that is easy.

The biggest enemy to russia comes from within. Same to usa, same to china. Internal mismanagement and instability. George Bush is doing a fine job of ruining America's economy. A few more george bushes and we have obvious consequences for America. But it hopefully won't come to that. You guys really have to stop looking for foes, work together and prosper. Trade, build up your economies, and look for enemies in space or something.

That is exactly what we do. All you've named, except for looking for enemies. The economy grows for the last 10 years. And we do not look for enemies - not in Korea, nor in Iran and Iraq, or Kuba. Not, of course, in Europe and US. We let others be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.85.148.66 (talk) 13:19, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Russia..a super power..what a joke, It's economy is only 1.2 trillion in GDP, its average capita is most Western nation's poverty line- it dose have a decent military, but it's still no match for countries like America, and perhaps China now. It's political influence is hardly stable, it invaded Georgia and that ruined its influence and political reputation.

Russia is no more a super power- than perhaps a state within the EU. The days of the Soviet Union is over. The Russian federation is a shell in all aspects.

Now, lets compare it to the only known superpower, and what some consider a new superpower.

America spends around 480 billion a year on its military. compared to the Russian federation that spends only 32 billion

The average American family makes 43,000- 48,000 USD a year. Teachers make far less. The average Russian family makes 11,000-15,000 USD a year.

The American GDP is 13.8 trillion The Russians GDP is 1.2 trillion

Why is Russia described as a superpower?

More important is GDP at PPP (Purchasing Power Parity) and at PPP Russian GDP is over $2 Trillion, similar to the UK and France, and its Defense spending similar also.

China´s GDP is already over 50% of the U.S. at PPP and its Defense spending over $100 billion.

I think the term 'super power' should be removed in the description. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jade Rat (talk • contribs) 16:11, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone have any recent data on Russia's present A-bomb count and megatonage? I agree it is not a "superpower" but after the reductions in their arsenal I wonder what exactly is the total present atomic capability and viable delivery means (which constitutes the bulk of its quasi-superpower potential). JSimmonz (talk) 03:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

All this is very interesting but you must live in Russia to judge its advantages and possibilities.

According to my dates US' GDP is counted not as it is in Europe. For example, when Jack gives Sam twenty bucks for cleaning his car, American GDP increases for this sum, but when Franz gives John twenty euros for the same, EU' GDP doesn't change. So it's unclear how large US national wealth is. neplox

P. S .: I'm russian myself and live in St. Petersburg the whole life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.94.16.147 (talk) 06:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi 81.94.16.147, would you be willing to answer some questions on your country at my user talk (so as not to traffic this spot)? I am very interested in what it is like living there. JSimmonz (talk) 20:01, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

dont forget the large arsenal of intercontinental rockets with mass destruction weapon (NUCLEAR power)! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.227.61 (talk) 12:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Russia's nuclear reserves alone qualify it as a superpower; there is little to debate. While Russia's actual political, economic, and cultural influence abroad has fluctuated and can be debated as to degree, there is little doubt that if it chose to place a dominating hand in any sphere, the world would be forced to listen. You simply cannot ignore a nation with the capability to destroy the entire world many times over. The only power with even a chance of negating such a threat would be the United States (thanks to our own nuclear reserve and our missile defense technology). Note the world's response to Russia's involvement in Georgia; despite general condemnation from the West, Russia withdrew on its own timescale and no one elses, much like the U.S. situation in Iraq.

The point is not to project one's feelings about Iraq onto the Georgian conflict or vice versa, the point is that when Russia wants to push itself into global affairs, it does it, and everyone else is left to either bury their head in sand or to preach rather ineffectively.

Moral judgements aside, Russia is still very much a superpower, albeit one that has been rather quite for some time.

If nothing else, the continued U.S. embargo against Cuba is proof enough that the United States believes Russia to be capable of a great deal. Cuba in isolation is hardly worth the effort of an embargo. In fact, a return to Stalinist measures would have easily stopped the breakup of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union's collapse was largely a sign of the maturity of its political regime, and their decision to let go of their former strong-arm tactics is what allowed the criminal element to explode and precipitate the economic landslide of the 90s. The relative stability of Putin's reign is due to his return to strongman tactics. Do not be fooled into thinking that they could not revive their Iron Fist if they believed it necessary. Give Russia credit for attempting to normalize their behavior, and do not doubt their power.

Russia is very much a shadow of its former self, and the U.S. is very much the dominant power in the world today (even if it is losing that title rapidly). But it would only take a few American tanks on Russian soil to show exactly how much of a superpower Russia still is. 67.171.67.235 (talk) 19:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Just because the United States is "better" then Russia does not deter its superpower status. Russia is great in the space program, sports, military, and many other subjects just as the US is. LOL, we probably need a chart. RoyalMate1 18:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree at many points but you are showing so much hatred and disgust that it looks like you are just another victim of American patriotism and propaganda. --Red w (talk) 00:58, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Establishment date

Strange no Independence clause is in there by the date. Something about ancient times is said, but no independence date, no info on that Russia became independent from the Soviet Union.

Probably it can be disputed what the issue if officially, whether Russia officially existed within, or in parallel with, Soviet Union -- you know, Soviet laws had little to do with reality, and I would not be surprised if there is a piece of paper saying that every Soviet republic, including Russia, was independent, free, and democratic within Soviet Union. However, de-facto independence was proclaimed during the Russian White House defense on August 19-21, 1991 (I think 19 is the right day, not sure). There is another "official" independence date, but those are papers -- the reality is August 19, independence from Soviet Union.

BTW, Ukraine article does state independence. Why not Russia?

Gelbukh (talk) 15:18, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

From talk page of pianist.ru. It is in Russian, please use Google translation if needed:

Duh, Russia ISN'T Soviet Union. 213.80.170.74 (talk) 13:59, 5 March 2009 (UTC) Mrannumous666 (talk) 21:46, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Россия (Russia)

• По России:

Правопреемственность: Российская республика, провозглашенная в феврале 1917 года стала правопреемницей Российской империи. РСФСР, установленная в октябре (по ст. стилю) 1917 года — правопреемница Российской республики. Далее 4 республики (РСФСР, БССР, УССР, ЗСФСР) объединились в СССР (при этом РСФСР продолжала существовать как государство в составе СССР, см. любую конституцию РСФСР 1918, 1925, 1938, 1978 года). В 1991 году Ельцин был избран Президентом РСФСР (одновременно ещё был Президент СССР - Горбачев). В декабре главами РСФСР, БССР, УССР подписано беловежское соглашение, Горбач уходит в отставку. Президент РСФСР не уничтожает РСФСР (по разным соображениям, также во избежание потери власти), а просто переименовывает её в РФ. Действуют все законы РСФСР (то же самое государство) и СССР (до указов о приостановлении конкретного закона), также обязательства Советского Союза перед другими государствами (РСФСР стала его государством-правопреемником). Поэтому дата основания современной России — 7 октября 1917 года.

Шоковая терапия, прихватизация и прочее по сути дела являются лишь продолжением перестроечной политики, хотя и сбивают несведущих граждан с толку. Еще их запутывает конституция РФ 1993 года, воспринимаемая как первая конституция России, однако она уже пятая по счёту. --Pianist 01:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Эта одна из точек зрения - вероятно вполне законная. С другой стороны Россия стала правоприемницей и наследницей многого от СССР. Например, у РСФСР было свое место в ООН, свое представительство, свой голос, это место не имело постоянного представительства в СБ и права вето. После распада СССР РФ получила не место РСФСР, а место СССР. РФ полностью взяла на себе внеший долг, обязательства по междунородным договорам, стату ядерной державы и проч. С третьей стороны РСФСР как предмет международного права после 1921 года не существовал (ну или почти не существовал). РФ руководствуется не договорами РСФСР, а договорами СССР. Или новыми договорами. С четвертой стороны юридически принятие действующей (Собчаковской) конституции в 1993 году было полным нарушением предыдущей конституции. В этом смысле государство существует с 1993 года. С пятой, по вашей точке зрения, поскольку в РСФСР теоретически действовали все законы Российской Империи кроме официально отменных. То современная РФ существует со значительно более ранних времен (Московского княжества?, Ивана III?).

Таким образом, говорить, что РФ существует с 1917 года - это откровенный WP:OR или ОРИСС. Если Вы найдете авторитетный источники это подтверждающие (не передовицу газеты Правда, а, скажем, Британику) - то можно. То что сейчас тоже надо поправить, но мне кажется, что сказать, что стала полностью суверенным государство в 1991г. - сказать можно).Alex Bakharev (talk) 02:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

По ООН - мягко выражаясь не совсем правдивая информация. РСФСР не вступала в ООН (в отличие от БССР и УССР), поэтому не знаю откуда вы это взяли. Кстати это не моя альтернативная точка зрения, как вы пытались намекнуть, это факты меджународного права. После ликвидации государства следует созыв учредительного собрания, принятие новой конституции; если вы не помните 1993 год, то напомню что конституцию приняли из-за событий возле Белого дома, а не потому что хотели принять конституцию нового государства. Поэтому прошу вас убрать ваш откат обратно. --Pianist 03:21, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Откатывал последний раз не я, а Berkunt. Я как раз пытаюсь учесть вашу точку зрения. У Вас есть сомнения, что Россия получила независимость от СССР в 1991? If possible lets use English, we are English wikipediaAlex Bakharev (talk) 03:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Прошу прощения, но если я буду писать по-английски, то сильно исказится смысл того, что я хотел сказать.
Независимость от СССР Россия получила, но это дата независимости, а не дата основания. Как говорится, это две большие разницы. Независимой Россия также была с 1917 по 1922 год. Кстати по комментарию, к откату участника Berkunt. По его мнению Российская империя была также переименована. Также он пропустил Российскую республику. Вот в том и сложности, что у множества людей начинается разрыв шаблонов, когда начинаешь писать задокументированные факты. По переименованию могу привести ссылку на официальный документ. Надеюсь вы понимаете, что переименование и прекращение существования государства - не одно и то же. --Pianist 04:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Alex Bakharev, вам не кажется странным, что в шаблоне указана дата основания (862), а вы даете сноску на дату независимости. Нужно и про 7 ноября 1917 года написать, что юридически РФ основана тогда. --Pianist 06:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Утром - ссылка на надежные источники, вечером - дата. Можно и наоборот, но источники - вперед. Alex Bakharev (talk) 06:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

• Закон в студию! Закон РСФСР от 25 декабря 1991 года № 2094-1 «Об изменении наименования государства Российская Советская Федеративная Социалистическая Республика». Вот ещё фотография закона с подписью Бориса Ельцина в виде бонуса --Pianist 07:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Это Ваша интерпретация (WP:SYNTH). Покажите ссылку где сказано, что РФ существует с Октября 1917 года. Alex Bakharev (talk) 07:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Как сложно разговаривать. РСФСР - это и есть РФ (что подтверждает закон, что я привел). РСФСР образована 7 ноября 1917 (БСЭ). --Pianist 23:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with your original research. Still I would wait for the input from other editors Alex Bakharev (talk) 01:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

When you have no arguments, you start saying about "original researches". I wrote Reliable sources to you. (Вот началось - кончаются аргументы - надо начинать орать про оригинальные исследования. Ссылки я указал, вы начинаете доводить до абсурда правила Википедии) --Pianist 01:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

We are not doing original research. We are looking for the mainstream views in published sources. Please find any reliable source that claim that modern RF starts in 1917. WP:SYNTH is not allowed, sorry Alex Bakharev (talk) 08:54, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

• Вот как все херово в Википедии - добавить факты нельзя - долго доказываешь и подтверждаешь ссылками, а в итоге всё будет откачено волюнтаристским решением админа (либо вообще додиков, что про Россию знают меньше, чем например русские про Гондурас). Сейчас в статье информация по дате независимости ложная, а даты образования вообще нет. Россия приняла декларацию независимости 12 июня 1990 года (а сейчас указан 1991 год), юридически Россия основана 7 ноября 1917 года (по новому стилю), однако вики-демократам эта дата не по-душе, ладно - триколор в жопу, ветер в спину - можете тогда указывать в качестве даты основания хоть август 1991, хоть октябрь 1993. Лет через сто может найдется умный человек и вернет правильную версию. Причем отсюда за этот период тупо скопируют в другие языковые разделы википедии. --Pianist 06:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
• The Supreme Soviet of RSFSR could proclaim whatever they want, the republic was not de-facto indendent until the August 1991. Otherwise we would have to admit that Estonia was an independent democratic state in 1940-1991. Still I have entered both dates to address your concerns Alex Bakharev (talk) 08:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Вот сейчас более-менее, но тема основания не раскрыта (1917), по данным, указанным в статье, получается что даже Израиль юридически старше России, однако это не так.--Pianist 09:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I have added the info you requested (with a valid reference BTW) Alex Bakharev (talk) 10:42, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to search documents for you (try google, if you want them), but Russia (Russian Federation) and USSR is the same country as I was told yet in school. It has survived dramatical changes, but de juri and de facto it's so. Так что, друзья мои, учите матчасть. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.94.16.147 (talk) 06:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Про незвависимоть: Россия (как государство, будь то СССР, Российская империя, РФ) никогда не была ни от кого зависима (в отличие от США, ксатати), Россия было ОСНОВАНА. А это 2 большие разницы! Про 1991 год: Россия - правоприемник СССР, а как правоприемник может быть зависим? имхо. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LeninFoRever (talk • contribs) 23:05, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

wikipedia's anti-russian bias

Is seen from its citing purely american standpoint of what is the size of the territory of Russia.The actual area of Russia is 17,098,242 km2,see wikpedias russian version,that's 22848 square kilometers more than shown in wikipedia's english version.

Frank Russian (talk) 12:42, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Are the Serbs really anti-russian? -- j.budissin (talk) 23:39, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Really-really anti-russian gang is at Federal State Statistics Service of Russia. --Tigga en (talk) 21:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

They have changed wiki russian aticle for 17,075,400 km recently.Wiki redactors must have woken up at last. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.99.66.166 (talk) 14:03, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

russian healthcare

Just wanted to comment that the sub chapter "Russian healthcare" would be (imho) good to move to a separate article "Healthcare in Russia" and add the categories "Healthcare by country" and "Health economics" to that article (as this is the case with a number of other countries. --Jhelleranta (talk) 18:07, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Если ты читал источник не внимательно, вот цитата: "В медицинской сфере дискриминация привела к тому, что неработающие граждане без регистрации по месту жительства не могут оформить медицинский полис. Те же, кто медицинский полис имеет, не могут получить медицинскую помощь на территории, не совпадающей с их регистрацией." И прописка, это лишь одна из причин, по которой всеобщее право на бесплатную медицину остаётся только на бумаге. Другая распространённая, это то, что значительная часть страны рпботает "нелегально" получает зарплату в конвертах и, как следствие, также не имеет полиса. Я не знаю откуда ты сам, но я например, живу в росси. И с тех самых пор, как закончил университет в 2002г. ни разу не имел этого полиса по разным причинам, равно как и большинство моих друзей. Что до выщитывания процентов, то вообще не понятно к чему это. Там ясно написано, что конституция гарантирует всем. На деле, разница между повседневностью и конституцией в россии огромна. И даже если и один этого не имеет, это уже не всем. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.81.237 (talk) 15:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, the article is discussing various types of discrimination by "propiska", not just discussing just health care. Health care is just one of the areas briefly touched upon. Secondly, your quote is meaningless without numbers of how many people this affects. The article listed potentially 3 million victims of propiska discrimination ("Количество потенциальных жертв подобной дискриминации составляет минимум 3 миллиона человек.") - that is less than 2% of Russia's population. This by itself shows that access to health care is hardly a big problem. But I'll add some points.

Furthermore, it states half of the 3 million figure are people working in Moscow, ("Около половины от этого числа людей работают в Москве, остальные, как правило, трудятся в других крупных городах страны") so it is hardly a nationwide problem. Furthermore, this 3 million figure counts all the various aspects of discrimination via propiska that the article covered (the article covered the right to work, to health care, to buy state housing, registration of motor vehicles, to obtain a loan and suffrage - "Среди прав, которые незаконно поставлены в зависимость от наличия регистрации, - право на труд, на медицинскую помощь, на покупку квартир по программе "Доступное жилье", на регистрацию автомобилей, на получение кредита и даже активное избирательное право."), not just health care. So the figure for people affected by solely health care, not counting all these other aspects which are included in this 3 million figure, would be even smaller, and the article doesn't provide this information anyway, which is the only information we are interested in.--Miyokan (talk) 16:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The statement is you can't get free health care without proper "propiska". So i don't know the way how this figure could be even smaller than amount of people without proper "propiska". Another statement you can't get free health care if you work illegally. And lot of russians do. And anyway, as i told you above, that article says "Russia's constitution guarantees free, universal health care for all citizens." Even if one doesn't in fact have this right, it's not all 91.122.81.237 (talk) 16:43, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Sure, there might be some cases of this, but it shouldn't be added to the article per WP:UNDUE as it affects so little people (less than 2% of the population - even less when you discount all the other discriminations that are included in that figure). It also basically just affects Moscow. This information belongs in the propiska article.--Miyokan (talk) 01:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Third time: not less! Because it's not you either can't register motor vehicle or can't get free health care, but all together at same time. + add here the amount of people, working illegally. And anyway, it doesn't matter. 98% 99% or 97% it's not all. So this part of the article gives false impression. And it's not a view of minority, which WP:UNDUE covers. It's view of official states ombudsman, assigned to this role by russian president —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.81.237 (talk) 09:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Stop violating concensus, you have been reverted by another editor now. You have also broken the three-revert rule. There is nothing false about "Russia's constitution guarantees free, universal health care for all citizens", that is just fact. That possibly 1% of people do not get it because they break the law does not discount this statement.--Miyokan (talk) 09:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

There is no consensus reached. And a fact that i were reverted by another editor, does not mean that my edits are wrong. Stop manipulate numbers and facts (3 of 140 is more than 2% FYI). This peoples can't get this right not because they've broke the law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.81.237 (talk) 09:51, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they have broken the law because propiska is a permit, it is a legal document, if these illegal Moscow workers followed the rules of propiska like 99% of the population does then they wouldn't have any problem.--Miyokan (talk) 09:57, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

That reference, which i've provided, does not say even a word about people broke a law. Peoples, which can't get theirs free health care are not outlaws. And don't forget, that russian constitution guaranties freedom of movement and settlement. So how could there be a permit on settlement? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.84.125 (talk) 10:09, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll repeat it again because you just ignored what I said. Yes, they have broken the law because propiska is a law, if these illegal Moscow workers followed the propiska law like 99% of the population does then they wouldn't have any problem. The Russian constitution argument, that is WP:OR and debateable, the Constitutional court has not ruled that propiska is unconstitutional. If you think propiska is unconstitutional then feel free to take it to the Constitutional court. Anyway, access to health care is hardly a problem as we have established that 98/99% of the population are not affected by this.--Miyokan (talk) 10:28, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

References does not say that those people have broke the law! It's just your imagination. Its not unlawful to live without propiska. It's not even unlawful to be a homeless. And anyway, even if such, constitution guaranties free health care to all which includes even outlaws because they are citizens as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.84.125 (talk) 10:51, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

The fact is the reason why these people are facing these "restrictions" is because they are not following the proper rules of propiska. Even ignoring this, you still neglect that this doesn't affect the 99% of Russians who do follow the rules.--Miyokan (talk) 12:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Once again, reference does not say that "they are not following the proper rules of propiska" or anything like that. It's just your imagination. Its not unlawful to live without propiska. It's not even unlawful to be a homeless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.92.76 (talk) 13:26, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

You are misrepresenting sources. "Те же, кто медицинский полис имеет, не могут получить медицинскую помощь на территории, не совпадающей с их регистрацией.") - Translation - "Those who have a medical policy cannot receive medical care in the territory not concurrent with their registration (propiska)". ie If people followed the rule and sought medical care in the territory concurrent with their registration like they are supposed to like 99% of Russians, then they would have no problem. All of this is irrelevant anyway because, as you yet again ignored, it this doesn't affect 99% of Russians as the article said.--Miyokan (talk) 14:22, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually complete phrase is "В медицинской сфере дискриминация привела к тому, что неработающие граждане без регистрации по месту жительства не могут оформить медицинский полис. Те же, кто медицинский полис имеет, не могут получить медицинскую помощь на территории, не совпадающей с их регистрацией." (In medical aspect discrimination lead to the fact that unemployed citizens without propiska can't get policy for free health care. Those who have a medical policy cannot receive medical care in the territory not concurrent with their propiska) And i'm not going to comment your statements about "following rules" and "99%" again and again. I've done that already.

Statement, that i've added to article is properly sourced by reliable source. So stop deleting it. I'm over with that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.92.76 (talk) 15:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous IP: If you'd study the health-care systems in other countries with so called "free" health-care, you'll find them all to have some sorts of restrictions and rules. That's just the nature of these types of social systems. Technicalities, such as your assertion that health care isn't free to *everyone* because illegal workers don't get it, does not at all warrant mention in this article (especially when you word it the way you do so to make it seem like a widespread issue that effects a significant portion of the population.) The main point is that every citizen in Russia is guaranteed free health care as long as they follow the rules (common sense, goes without saying), the same as in every European country. Krawndawg (talk) 15:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Again. Those people mentioned in report of official russian ombudsmen do not brake rules or laws! And what is happening in other countries is not relevant to this article at all. I haven't mentioned illegal workers in this article. There is discrimination in russia in area of health care. And this statement has reliable sources ( official russian ombudsmen report and others ). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.110.13.68 (talk) 18:00, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, after a post at WP:NPOV/N, I am responding.

1) @IP: you have edit warred a lot, across several IPs, and have scarcely avoiding violating WP:3RR on a few occasions. This makes getting in contact with you hard. Please register an account.

2) @Miyokan et al.: I see no problem including a note that the universal health care has problems; in fact, it provides information to the read that is important. I've translated the source into English, and the IP is not misrepresenting it at all. The Evil Spartan (talk) 23:15, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Read what Krawndawg said, Spartan. Anon is again ignoring facts so I'll repeat again - "Те же, кто медицинский полис имеет, не могут получить медицинскую помощь на территории, не совпадающей с их регистрацией.") - Translation - "Those who have a medical policy cannot receive medical care in the territory not concurrent with their registration (propiska)". ie If people followed the rule and sought medical care in the territory concurrent with their registration like they are supposed to like 99% of Russians, then they would have no problem.

It is impossible to argue with Anon, he ignores our points and facts repeats the same thing ad nauseum. Every universal health care in the world has some sorts of restriction rules, which is the nature of these types of social systems. And if you indeed read the source (google translate?) then you would have read that 99% of Russians are not affected by these rules.--Miyokan (talk) 03:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Fourth time: they do not brake rules. I don't know where you got it. All those "ie If" is just your original research. Russian ombudsmen clearly calls it as discrimination in his report. I repeat: discrimination. The article is biased, and gives wrong impression. Sounds like "russia got such a great free universal health care system, and all problems is just came from nowhere" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.94.39 (talk) 09:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I think the repeated deletion of this text by three registered users (Miyokan, Krawdawng and Cuban kossak) is against the core WP:NPOV policy. You do not own this article. A user, who acts in a good faith, wants to include the another side of the coin - based on a source. Let him do it. What kind of cooperation is that? This suppose to be a collaborative project.Biophys (talk) 17:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

We can not give undue weight to health care not being provided to people who live in places in violation of Russian law.--Natl1 (Talk Page) (Contribs) 17:40, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Seems like all this dispute is double bull. Healthcare problem is hardly related to propiska at all (trust me - I'm one of 3 million, although the number should be doubled for Moscow alone), not even to money. It's about scarcity of medical resources and their concentration in a few institutions (yes, primarily Muscovite). Got xxx-tis? Go to Moscow to Dr.Y. (it's cheaper than going to similarly qualified Dr.Z somewhere in Irkutsk). NVO (talk) 21:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Where did you get that, about law violation? And official russian ombudsmen report of cause have undue weight. Only your fantasies about law violation is heavyweight. 89.110.23.40 (talk) 17:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

If people can not legally register but still chose to reside where they can not legally register they are violating Russian law. Since most people are able to legally register where they reside, it is undue weight to put a sentence about who can't in second sentence of the Russian health section. An official Russian ombudsmen report does not change this. People who are not able to legally register where they choose to reside are a small part of the Russian population.--Natl1 (Talk Page) (Contribs) 18:04, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

As i told above: Its not unlawful to live without propiska. It's not even unlawful to be a homeless. So what law are they violating? Report does not say anything about any law violations committed by those people. 89.110.23.40 (talk) 18:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, i've missed that report can't change your mind. But unfortunately for you, we should add statements not based on what you think of it, but on reliable sources 89.110.23.40 (talk) 18:27, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

What do you think Registration is for, for fun. Of course it is made by law. Don't repeat your questions, points when they have been negated. See User:Jnc/Astronomer vs Amateur.--Natl1 (Talk Page) (Contribs) 18:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

If by "negated" you mean simply ignoring questions like "So what law are they violating?" ok than. Seems like we finished. And i believe that you understand laws a way better than official russian ombudsmen. 89.110.23.40 (talk) 18:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

This user only wants to tell that "But in practice, free health care is restricted due, for example, to propiska regime". This is obviously true, and what "undue weight"? This way you can call anything you do not like "undue weight". If propiska by itself represents a lawful practice is debatable and a separate question. Biophys (talk) 18:42, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

The point is the user is trying to say that "Russians are being prevented from enjoying free health care from propiskas." This is misrepresenting the facts. It should be "People who live illegally at their location in Russia are not being provided with health care."--Natl1 (Talk Page) (Contribs) 18:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

No, I cited the deleted text precisely: "But in practice, free health care is restricted due, for example, to propiska regime".Biophys (talk) 23:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

"Citizens who live illegally in their own country" sounds nice. =) Can i ask, what your imaginable russian law suppose to do with those criminals? Depart them? Where? To the moon? Or should they just be immediately shot? 89.110.23.40 (talk) 19:03, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Right, Natl1 apparently considers Russian citizens to be illegal aliens if only they visit Moscow instead of staying in their Syktyvkar. This sounds like Stalinism to me.Biophys (talk) 23:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I think this should go on propiska as the matter at hand deals with supposed no freedom of movement and the consequences of its enforcement. Nothing to do with how health care is provided to most Russians.--Natl1 (Talk Page) (Contribs) 00:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Looks like anonymous IP is back after his 3 day block for block evasion and breaking the 3RR and the semi-protection of the article expired. Anon seems to ignore everything we say and facts that I point out and thinks that brute edit warring and repeating the same defeated argument ad nauseam, instead of gaining WP:CONCENSUS for his new controversial edit which there obviously isn't, will keep this information in. He seems to want to make a WP:POINT that Russia has a bad health care system ("The article is biased, and gives wrong impression. Sounds like "russia got such a great free universal health care system, and all problems is just came from nowhere"). He is blaming it on propiska/registration (freedom of movement which affects access to health care if not correctly followed), which has nothing to do with quality of health care services and doesn't affect 99% of Russians.

Source: "Те же, кто медицинский полис имеет, не могут получить медицинскую помощь на территории, не совпадающей с их регистрацией.") - Translation - "Those who have a medical policy cannot receive medical care in the territory not concurrent with their registration (propiska)". ie If people followed the rule and sought medical care in the territory concurrent with their registration like they are supposed to like 99% of Russians, then they would have no problem. Propiska/registration, is a permit, it is a legal document, as Natl1 said, it is not for fun.

This is WP:UNDUE as it doesn't affect 99% of Russians ("Количество потенциальных жертв подобной дискриминации составляет минимум 3 миллиона человек." Translation - article said propiska potentially affects at least 3 million Russians - that's only around 2% of the population, potentially at that, and this figure counts all the various aspects of discrimination via propiska that the article covered, ) and the 1-2% of the population that it does affect are not following the propiska rules. (WP:UNDUE-Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.) - the fact that it doesn't affect 99% of Russians falls under this criteria by itself, but you can add to that who follow the law, and that all the health-care systems in other countries with so called "free" health-care have some sorts of restrictions and rules, makes it certainly undue). Furthermore, it states half of the 3 million figure are people working in Moscow, ("Около половины от этого числа людей работают в Москве, остальные, как правило, трудятся в других крупных городах страны"), so it is hardly a nationwide problem. It is a freedom of movement problem, isolated mostly to Moscow that doesn't affect 98-99% of the pop.--Miyokan (talk) 12:34, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution Just in case if you were not aware of that ;) 89.110.9.132 (talk) 19:55, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Right. But then you should register as a regular user and ask for mediation.Biophys (talk) 21:38, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Brute edit warring and repeating the same defeated argument ad nauseam, as other users noted, to get what you want when so many are opposed will not get you anywhere, I and other users will be here tommorow, and the day after that, and the week after that, and the year after that. The onus is on the user who adds the information to keep it in ("If your ideas are not immediately accepted, think of a reasonable change that might integrate your ideas with others and make an edit, or discuss those ideas.") and you still have no WP:CONSENSUS for your change, which was immediately met with opposition from several editors, so seek consensus on talk here or through mediation as you have no hope of keeping it in without it, and continuing to add this disputed information with no concensus will only get you blocked.--Miyokan (talk) 12:29, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

You are welcome to join. 91.122.90.169 (talk) 14:55, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

One could also create article Health care in Russia (now this is a redirect) and describe everything there. There is a lot of things to be said, including the infant mortality rate, conditions in maternity yards, etc.Biophys (talk) 16:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how that would solve this specific problem. It would still put the propiska problem under the wrong heading.--Natl1 (Talk Page) (Contribs) 17:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

This is not about propiska. This is about denial of health care on the grounds that a person has a wrong record in his/her internal passport. A person who allegedly undergoes this discrimination can not easily change this record. This is not a USA driver's license. To put this in perspective, consider that a Mexican illegal alien in the US has an access to emergency health care in the US. However a Russian citizen can be denied health care at the territory of Russia, being considered as a kind of an "illegal" alien, based on this "propiska" system. At least, that is an argument of the IP, if I understand him/her correctly.Biophys (talk) 19:05, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Biased/Inaccurate History

This article claims Kievan Rus' as the beginning of its historical recount. Kievan Rus', since it's establishment in 5th century, was the capital of the country now called Ukraine, and shares its culture, language and history. The Moscow State established itself as a notable power centuries later than Kievan Rus',in 15th century and 471 miles away. The ethnic composition, the spoken language, and culture of Moscow State (what is now Russia) was completely distinct from that of Kievan Rus'.

The language used by the Slavic Rus' is not "shared" by Ukraine; in fact, modern Ukrainian shares a lot with Polish, which is not surprising considering Poland ruled Ukraine for hundreds of years. The Ancient Rus' never called themselves "Ukrainian" nor did they call their state "Kievan Rus'", which is a modern invention. The inhabitants of Ancient Rus' were not Ukrainians, nor Russians or Belarussians, none of which had yet emerged as separate ethnic groups. The Rus' were quite simply the Rus, and the predecessors of all three groups. Put another way, Russians, Belarussians and Ukrainians are descendants of the Rus', and, thus, were at one point the same group of people. So in fact, all three countries have the same legitimate claim to claiming Ancient Rus' in historical recounts.--71.112.145.102 (talk) 07:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Novgorod, I would assume, was Ukrainian as well. --Humanophage (talk) 23:37, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Human/civil rights

I'm a bit surprised, there is not a section about civil/human rights. I think it is far from perfect. Well, maybe just certain people want it to be clean and to to mention it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ceridan (talk • contribs) 17:45, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The USA article doesn't have it to, and the CIA invented it. Kostan1 (talk) 14:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

What rights?! seriously, the list will be long enough for a dozen spinoff articles. NVO (talk) 22:08, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

No link to 2008 South Ossetia war?

Georgia's page links there. Is this not notable information concerning Russia at this moment in time? Emesee (talk) 20:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it should be included. Ostap 22:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

While the effect of the war is very visible and immediate in case of Georgia, it is not yet so for Russia. Wait a few weeks, until the effect on Russia becomes more clear, then add it to highlight that effect. Right now, a short notice of an ongoing conflict is sufficient. --Illythr (talk) 22:25, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, people in Russia are not affected by this conflict and most people in Russia are not preoccupied with it. WP:NOT#NEWS. Russia has been in far larger wars in its history, we don't list every war/conflict Russia was involved in during Muscovy, Tsarist or Imperial Russia sections.--Miyokan (talk) 05:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

There may be a big effect whether they are conscious of it or not. This may be a matter of perspective, however. One author sums it up as "The invasion restores a sense of Russian nationalism and power to its populace without the stink of Stalinism, and is indeed cloaked as a sort of humanitarian intervention on behalf of beleaguered Ossetians." However, if it comes down to simply not including it because of "wp,news (not)" then OK, that's great. Emesee (talk) 00:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Now this probably sounds really evil, but the 3:1 victory of the Russian national football team over the Netherlands this year may have had just the effect on Russians this author describes, albeit for a short time (until the semifinals). The idea is to wait until the dust settles and see what the long-term geopolitical and social (if any) consequences of this war will be, find the (numerous, reliable, independent) sources pinpointing those, and add them in. --Illythr (talk) 01:44, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Request for minor grammatical change

I would like to suggest the following minor changes, deleting the words I have marked with a strike-through and adding the words I have marked in bold.

"Following the Soviet practice, it is mandatory for all male citizens aged 18–27 to be drafted for two years' Armed Forces service, though various problems associated with this is explain why the armed forces have reduced the conscription term from 18 months to 12 since 2008, and are planning to increase the proportion of contract servicemen to compose 70% of the armed forces by 2010."

I do not feel these change the meaning of the sentence in any way but I do feel they improve the readability of this section. Kapello (talk) 01:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Done.--Miyokan (talk) 05:16, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

POV Content

At the very top of the article it says that "Russia shares land borders with the following countries", among which Abkhazia and South Ossetia are listed.

I understand that Russia has recently recognized Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent states, but much of the rest of the world has not, and is refusing to recognize them.

I'd like to make a request to either have a heading on top of the page of disputing the neutrality of the article, or have this section reworded.

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 43.244.33.124 (talk) 01:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, Kosovo is listed as having a common border with the Republic of Macedonia, Albania and Montenegro. I think a common solution should be developed for all of them. --Illythr (talk) 19:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think it is fair with a sort of disclaimer. This is about Russia, after all, so it does matter that the Russian government consider them independent, though personally I disagree w.r.t. Abkhazia and the border delimitation in S. Ossetia. Colchicum (talk) 20:27, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I would rather remove them all (Kosovo, S Oss, Abkhasia). --Illythr (talk) 21:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I second that opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 43.244.33.124 (talk) 02:54, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Kievan Rus'

The Kievan Rus' was not Russian. IT WAS UKRAINIAN and the Russians stoll this from us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.88.255 (talk) 01:25, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Really? Are you gonna say that Ukraine founded earlier than Kiev Russia? Modern Russian, Ukrainian and Belorussian ethnic groups were absent in the 9th century. EAST SLAVIC tribes lived there ("radimichi", "krivichi", "vyatichi" et cetera). They used the Old Russian language. Ukrainians and the Ukrainian language appeared in about 14th century (like Russians and Belorussians also). Open any encyclopedia or course of history and you'll see this info. LexArt (talk) 08:26, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Ukraine and Ukrainians have created by Poles in the 15 century, when they needed slaves to free labor. Thus, they created the Ukrainian nation and Ukrainian language, which is a mixture of Polish and Russian languages (Ukrainian culture, too).--213.80.170.74 (talk) 14:05, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

This article is ...

Someone reading this article would have *absolutely no idea* about how Russia is. There is nothing here about the lack of respect for law, nothing about the lack of democractic process, the destruction of the free press, the absolute concentration of political power into the Kremlin, etc. This article is a brainwash. I'm ashamed to see it on Misplaced Pages. Toby Douglass (talk) 00:51, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you're right, but it's unreal to write an absolutely neutral article about so big and powerful country IMHO. For example, we can also correct the article USA, and write about a dry-rot of American Economy, about brainwashing in US mass media in the event in South Ossetia, about the aggressive Middle East politics of Bush Jr. Yeah? We can find a lot of confirmations of inhumanity of every political regime. But we will never find who's right.

Therefore we should edit all articles about big and powerful countries (like Russia, US, China, India, Brazil etc) very accurately and cautiously, IMHO. LexArt (talk) 08:45, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree, Toby, but WP:BE BOLD. Colchicum (talk) 09:37, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Colchicum, you're right. All the Wikipedians should be careful. LexArt (talk) 12:39, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Racism in Russia: New section needed

I propose we add a new section to the article about racism in Russia. It is a huge issue, with growing number of neonazis, skinheads and nationalists. Russia has a large population of minorities, and with growing racism, there have been increased reports of violence and killings of minorities in Russia. In 2005 there have been over 300 known killings, this number has been already surpassed. There are already articles on this on Misplaced Pages, I think they should be referenced here... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.124.159.215 (talk) 21:46, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's great idea to create new section. It always was, and still is a big issue in Russia.--Edilhan777 (talk) 21:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Show me a single other country article which has racism as a separate section on it; does United States, Australia, Germany, Estonia, Georgia (country), etc? Racism is a problem which all countries encounter (including those I have singled out), and needs to be dealt with in separate articles. --Russavia 05:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Racism in Oceania, Racism in the United States, Racism by country, etc. Methinks it should be added 124.177.43.182 (talk) 09:49, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

• We already have Racism in Russia article Alex Bakharev (talk) 12:03, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Typos and clarity

I don't know if new edits should be put on top (like this one) or at the bottom. Anyway, I've found a minor typo in the Russian Federation topic in the History section. The first sentence starts with "During and after the disintegration of the USSR when-wide ranging reforms ...". I think it should read "During and after the disintegration of the USSR when wide-ranging reforms ...".

Sorry to bother, but I have noticed two errors in the article, as well as two parts that I believe need more clarity.

The first error that I found was under the Topography section, where a sentence reads, "Other major lakes include Lake Ladoga and Lake Onega, two largest lakes in Europe." This surely cannot be a complete sentence. Perhaps it should read, "Other major lakes include Lake Ladoga and Lake Onega, the two largest lakes in Europe."

The other error is in the first sentence of the Russian Federation section. The part in question reads, "... of the USSR when-wide ranging reforms..." The hyphen here should most likely be between wide and ranging, instead of when and wide.

Under the Subdivisions section, I believe that the explanation of the federal subjects is rather confusing. It may have just been the fact that I was also in a math lecture when I was reading this, but it may want to be checked. Also, it would be nice if under the Geography section that the percentage of the world's area that Russia controls was listed. Especially under Topography, many numbers are listed, and although these numbers are good to have, it'd be nice to have something to compare it to. This is especially important for the part where it says that Russia controls 10% of the world's arable land. If Russia were only 1% of the world's area, then this would be impressive, and if Russia were 80% of the world's area, then this number would obviously bear less significance. As it stands, Russia controls 11.5% of the world's land, which means that it having 10% of the arable land is actually a bit less than expected.

Once again, sorry to bother, but I hope someone with the awesome ability to edit locked articles can improve these parts. Haberdasheryisnotacrime (talk) 17:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I guess russians do not know geography. when they say that russia borders Georgia, Abkhazia, South Ossetia they don't understand Abkhazia and South Ossetia are just the regions of Georgia. but russia will border soon North Ossetia, Ingushetia, Chechnya, Kabardino-Balkaria, Karachay-Cherkessia, Adigeya and Dagestan and others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.172.178 (talk) 01:53, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Bordering countries

Because of only Russia recognises South Ossetia and Abkhazia, should they be added to the list of countries Russia borders? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.238.141.113 (talk) 16:35, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

"Every"

The nation can boast a long tradition of excellence in every aspect of the arts and sciences.

— Maybe so, but is this information or a boast? "Every" is an absolute term in English, meaning there are no exceptions — absolutely every respect is included.

I looked for a parallel in the article on the United States, and found the U.S. described as a leader in scientific research and technological innovation. This seems a bit less fulsome. "A leader" is not the only leader, and doesn't necessarily mean a leader in every aspect of research and innovation.

I have great respect for Russia and its culture, which I find fascinating. But the above statement strikes me as a bit POV. Sca (talk) 19:30, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Current Russia shouldn't take the credit for the works of SU and Russian Empire

According to this article Russian conservatories have turned out generations of world-renowned soloists well none of the great performers mentioned took lesson on Russian Federation conservatories but conservatories in the Russian Empire and USSR. Still this article labels them as having had lessons at Russian conservatories. Horowitz went to the Kiev conservatory, well that is not in Russia now is it? So why was this edit: undone? Seems like some editors think Misplaced Pages is a tool to glorify Russia rather then to inform people about it. -- Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:02, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

There are no historical or contemporary distinctions in the adjective "Russian"; all it means is "pertaining to Russia." It doesn't matter whether it pertained to Russia hundreds of years ago or today.--71.112.145.102 (talk) 03:39, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Politics section

It is well known that political opponents have been tortured and murdered in many different ways such including being poisoned. Even media people who have opposed the government have been poisoned. These things have also happened during the elections. Could this be added to the article somewhere? Aaroncrick (talk) 04:33, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Why did my previous comment get deleted? It's just a suggestion. It's not as if I've added it to the article. Aaroncrick (talk) 07:01, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Your previous comment was deleted because it was not a suggestion, but yourself using the talkpage as a WP:FORUM. And it won't get covered on this particular article, for the same that Australia doesn't cover the fact that the Europeans near on exterminated the Aboriginal population; often by burying them in the sand up to their heads, and kicking their heads like it was a football. And I have renamed the section also, to again take away your WP:FORUM like comments. --Russavia 07:30, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Alright point taken. Aaroncrick (talk) 09:52, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Russian History

Good day moderators and Editors of Russia article I'm witting this topic because of a brief problem me and different partners at Tec of monterrey campus Guadalajara are having at this moment. In the section of Brief history about russia this fragment was use by different students in a work about Russia it was taken from the suppose source web page of the information. At this moment it is prohibited for Students at Tec of monterrey to use any kind of information taken form wikipidia. I want to know if is possible not to erase but to paraphrase this fragment in the article:

Byzantine Empire in 988, beginning the synthesis of Byzantine and Slavic cultures that defined Russian culture for the next millennium. Moscow gradually reunified the surrounding Russian principalities and came to dominate the cultural and political legacy of Kievan Rus'. By the 18th century, the nation had greatly expanded through conquest, annexation and exploration to become the Russian Empire, which was the third largest empire in history, stretching from Poland eastward to the Pacific Ocean and Alaska.

Just by the simple fact of moderators paraphrasing this info will prevent 50 students of receiving a DA or Academic Dishonesty. Which is a punishment we receive for using prohibited websites or information not cited in mla format in our written works. In this case the problem was the presence of this article in wikipedia without the knowledge of students.

Thanks moderator if is possible to paraprahse this info or to open the file to editing and help us in this academic problem.

Eduardo Prado Ruiz 5th semester High school Instituto Tecnologico de Estudios Superiores Monterrey Campu Guadalajara.

Hi. Can you present the original source you took the text from? If so, you can simply list that author as the source, which I assume, is perfectly legal for your examinators. The source used in Misplaced Pages for this information is the US Library of Congress, which, as you can see, is already rather paraphrased. So you can take the ULC as your source as well - it's obvious that it is the original source.

You also should be aware that since you left your name on this page, it, along with your proposal here, will turn up within a few days in most search engines. --Illythr (talk) 22:06, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Russian Presidential

Russian already changed their constitution to Presidential since November 20, 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Calvin Ho Jiang Lim (talk • contribs) 05:15, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Accuracy of claim?

It says in the article: "Russia has the world's largest forest reserves and is known as "the lungs of Europe", second only to the Amazon Rainforest in the amount of carbon dioxide it absorbs. It provides a huge amount of oxygen for not just Europe, but the world"

That seems untrue - isn't the majority of the forest a climax ecosystem? In that case, it should be fairly neutral, both with regard to CO₂ and oxygen. Same is the case with the Amazon rainforest. The source is "The Guardian", I wouldn't count on their ability to figure that out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.51.151.66 (talk) 18:18, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Some substantiation:

"Even without the massive burning, the popular conception of the Amazon as a giant oxygen factory for the rest of the planet is misguided, scientists say. Left unmolested, the forest does generate enormous amounts of oxygen through photosynthesis, but it consumes most of it itself in the decomposition of organic matter"

This is speciffically about the Amazon, but as it is mentioned in the article, I think it is relevant.

Link: http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jun/08/world/fg-amazon8

There may be a small surplus of oxygen, but nowhere the amount suggested in the Misplaced Pages article.

Redirection

Should 'Poccnr' really be redirected to 'Russia'? Same goes with 'Mockba' to 'Moscow', and 'Pyccknn' to 'Russian language'. Can you undo redirection links somehow? 76.111.67.200 (talk) 03:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• I have deleted the redirects, they are hardly usable and maintaining each redirect require some effort (like vandalism monitoring) Alex Bakharev (talk) 07:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• Okay, thanks. 76.111.67.200 (talk) 01:52, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Erm, I think you've forgotten the redirect for the Russian language, 'pyccknn'. («pусский») 76.111.67.200 (talk) 02:00, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Map

The map, that shows the regions of Russia has a mistake. Archangelsk is south from Murmansk, not east, as it is displayed. It has it is own region next to Karelia (which is given on the map). I doubt what is the biggest settlement on the Novaya Zemlya island is, but it is not Archangelsk. Stan (talk) 15:26, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

The only problem with the map is that it tries to shorten the names of the federal subjects for the sake of saving space, but creates more confusion in the process. "Arkhangelsk" on the map refers not to the city of Arkhangelsk, but to Arkhangelsk Oblast. Novaya Zemlya is in jurisdiction of Arkhangelsk Oblast, which is why it is so marked (you'll see that the main territory of the oblast is located where it is supposed to be—south of Murmansk Oblast).—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:49, December 18, 2008 (UTC)

Government and politics section

The section as currently presented lays out the formal arrangements of government - as a democracy - without mentioning that there are a considerable number of authoritarian features that inhibit free democratic freedom of expression and legislative scrutiny of government. Would people mind if I added something like 'While the formal functioning of government is democratic, Russia has a centuries-long history of authoritarian rule, only broken briefly under Yeltsin in the early 1990s, and the Kremlin maintains effective control of events without much effective opposition from adversary parties.' We can easily have a debate on the wording, but I do not feel at the moment that the section accurately reflects the actual situation. Thoughts welcome. Buckshot06(prof) 18:03, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:5228-769639.jpg

The image File:5228-769639.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Misplaced Pages:Media copyright questions. --03:57, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Domain .su

Domain .su is used now,it's not reserved. I living in Russia, i know. It's price 600 ruble. see here: http://www.nic.ru/?ipartner=349 and here: http://www.nic.ru/dns/service/su.html

ps. sorry for my english =) —Preceding unsigned comment added by LeninFoRever (talk • contribs) 23:13, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Inaccurate source

Source #74: http://www.umsl.edu/services/govdocs/wofact90/world12.txt It is used to verify that the Soviet Union had the 2nd largest economy in the world. However, this source was for 1990, and obviously shows that the Soviet Union did not have the second largest economy. The source already present needs to be removed, and we need to either search for a source that verifies the original claim or remove the claim. PrometheusAndSisyphus (talk) 03:30, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

GDP in sidebar is incorrect form

for those numbers to be correct they need to change form to either 2,089 billion to 2.09 trillion and 1,289 billion or 1.29 trillion to be correct in US dollars. ~~weregilt~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.30.147.43 (talk) 10:52, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. Greyhood (talk) 15:35, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Military expenditures and GDP

According to the links in your page now the Russian Federation has the 5th largest Military expenditures in the World and at Market prices it is the 8th World economy (CIA Factbook) even if still 7th at PPP (6th according to one chart)

Population

Population update!:

According to CIA in July 2008 Russias population was 140.7 million. By now I would guess its about 140 million with 700k less. Certainly it is not 142 million.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.161.173 (talk • contribs)

The CIA factbook uses estimates based on an old linear model from when Russia's population was declining by 500-600k per year. That decline has slowed significantly in recent years. You can find official population statistics on their state statistics service website here (or in English). LokiiT (talk) 06:54, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Anthem translation: English vs. Russian idiom

If the intention is to have a free translation (using English idiom), "National Anthem" is ok, but for a literal translation "State Hymn" is the obvious result. "State Anthem" mixes English and Russian idiom and imo is unsatisfactory. 118.90.105.225 (talk) 07:56, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

You have a point there, and I'd suggest changing it to "national anthem". However, there may be some reason we're unaware of for choosing "state anthem", so it's worth waiting a day or two for responses from regular editors of this article. If no one seems to object, I'd change it. garik (talk) 11:46, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

This talk page is not a good place to discuss the anthem. Please start with Talk:National Anthem of Russia. A move needs to be proposed, the results of which would affect the choice of the term to be used in this article.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:44, February 13, 2009 (UTC)

Well, I asked this in part due to the differing title and link's translation. I'd like to see the link changed to National Anthem, if that is where the article is at. At the moment, the link's translation and the actual article are different. 118.90.105.225 (talk) 20:26, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Question

Im am here to study for my Europe test i wold like to find seas, oceans, and continents of Europe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.177.114.251 (talk) 18:18, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid no one can help you with the continents of Europe. For all other inquiries, please post at a reference desk appropriate to your question.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 18:15, February 24, 2009 (UTC)

Russia

Great page! I am doing a report on Russia and I found this very helpful.

thanks.

kingpenguins.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Kingpenguins2007 (talk • contribs) 03:23, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

You can help in Wiktionary - to Wiki editors

The English Wiktionary's list of Russian cities is rather small and needs expansion. Only the largest cities are represented.

You can join and help to enhance the list of entries. Start with your favourite city if they don't exist yet (a regional centre or a famous city). Here are 2 examples of an entry in English and Russian (both in the English Wiktionary):

• Krasnodar
• Краснодар
• Belgorod
• Белгород Anatoli (talk) 05:38, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Russia Was Founded by Rurik???

In nooooooooooooooo way Russia was founded by Rurik. Russia was not recognized as Russia until Peter I assumed title as Emperor! And modern Russia started only after Soviet Uhion broke up, please remove this bull. I am, and many others are tired of these baseless claims. Neither Belarus, Ukraine, nor Baltic countries do not claim that they were founded during the Middle Ages. What is next? You will say that Russia was founded by Khazars in the 7th century, or by some crazy nomad that you will come up with? And what is the deal with Bosporan Kingdom it has no relation to Russia. 12.28.215.200 (talk) 00:19, 24 February 2009 (UTC) Russia founded by Rurik at 861, see Russian history, see at Russian "letopis'" (The books written wery old time) in Russian historical museum, at red sqare! Ukraine, Belorussia, Baltic countries, has his independed at 1918 year, becose in Russia was civil war. see in google =)

ps sorry for my English))))

зы Даже говорить сэтм бесплоезно. Кто знает тот поймет))) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.140.228.53 (talk) 18:11, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I have read the Povest Vremennyx Let several times in Russian and English, and have written many articles on it. It says NOTHING of Russia. If anything thier emphasis was on Novgorod and Kiev. And google is not a credible source, go to the library. Please remove it you are only embarrasing youselves.12.28.215.200 (talk) 01:35, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Don't feed the trolls. garik (talk) 11:49, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

chego xvosty prizhali, skazat nechego? 138.88.197.66 (talk) 19:19, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Lithuania and Poland do claim to have been founded in the Middle Ages, which they actually were, just like Russia. Kievan Rus' is for Russia what the Holy Roman Empire is for Germany. Oh wait, Germany hasn't started until 1871. Or 1918. Or 1933. Or 1945. Or 1948. Or 1990. --Humanophage (talk) 22:08, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh yeah, sure, and Byzantine Empire is for Turkey as Babylon for Iraq. Except for its most north-western part (Novgorod and Pskov) during the time of Rus the rest of Russia was quite underdevelopped and backwards, until principalities emerged around Suzdal which was much later (well into the second century). Of course I disregarded Volga Bulgar. Maybe this is the real precurser?Ivan2007 (talk) 04:56, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Turkey was founded by the Turks, and Iraq by the Arabs. Rus' was founded by Russians. When peoples united under anyone's rule, thay founded their state.--213.80.170.74 (talk) 14:12, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Russia Was Founded by Ivan The Terrible???

Why not Boris Yeltsin??--213.80.170.74 (talk) 14:23, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Because Boris Yeltsin lost Russia and there was no lost and found department available. In all honesty, Russia, as a political entity, came into existence in the ninth century, and anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know history. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 21:51, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

2008 South Ossetia Article

There's been a discussion about what to rename the 2008 South Ossetia War, and basically wants to make Russia look evil, by changing it to the 2008 Russia-Georgia War, as if Russia was the attacker (attacker goes first in Wiki Articles). Please help with the voting. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 21:51, 7 March 2009 (UTC)