The offending edit does appear to violate both WP:V and WP:NPOV (for a WP:BLP no less) in which case User:THF had every reason to revert it. If you don't want to be reported to ANI then don't break the rules. If there is a problem then you should explain it clearly with diffs and associated policy violations rather than identifying instances where you've been told off for WP:3RR, WP:NPOV, WP:V, etc. violations by a number of editors. -- samj _in 01:45, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

This seems to be a carry-over from the preceding WQA, and Abbarocks' attitude therein. Collect (talk) 02:24, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

• Comment. As uninvolved in this episode i will comment that I have had my own problems with THF that was far less than civil and they may not realize how their online comments are felt even if they weren't intended to be overtly blunt. That's putting it lightly but I think you get the gist. To me they seem to have some ownership issues which can be helpful but may also be crossing the line. Other editors, even newbies and anons, are people too and deserve to be treated civilly and respectfully. Talking down to others generally isn't constructive and likely will escalate problems. -- Banjeboi 02:45, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

• I trust you will be providing diffs so as we can make up our own minds? -- samj _in 09:10, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

• Actually it was all painful enough that no, I'd rather not. I tried to remain constructive and positive so my comments hopefully can be taken at face value. -- Banjeboi 12:03, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

• Response. I have been extraordinarily civil to Abbarocks; please do read the extensive user talk page history. Unfortunately, every edit of his has been either (1) edit-warring against consensus to include OR or other text not supported by the claimed cited sources, often with fake edit summaries purporting "consensus"; (2) edit-warring to delete well-sourced information with edit-summaries falsely calling it OR; (3) tendentious argument on the talk-page to include conspiracy theories of John Buchanan (American politician) about Prescott Bush in articles having nothing to do with Bush, or (4) edit-warring to sanitize Buchanan's biography.

The absolute last straw is that he has followed me to Richard Rossi to start an edit-war there on behalf of a banned editor, complete with a fake edit summary "well sourced" (compare ). This is the sure sign of someone trolling and not here to productively contribute to Misplaced Pages. Far too much productive editor time is being wasted arguing with this user, who has made the grand total of half of a constructive edit in his Misplaced Pages career, and lots of time is being wasted trying to explain OR and EW rules to him. Just as vandals get progressively increasing warnings ranging from "your editing test has been reverted" to "you have not been productive" to "stop or you will be blocked", users who steadfastly refuse to follow OR and EW rules get increasingly stern warnings. Whether Abbarocks is an experienced editor pretending not to understand the rules or a newbie who still doesn't understand the rules (but somehow magically knows how to include savvy edit summaries misrepresenting his work and to avoid going over the 3RR line when he edit-wars) is irrelevant: the effect on the project is the same.

At some point, one loses the presumption of good faith: this is not an editor who is here to contribute productively to the project, but one who is here to disrupt the project, and there is a non-zero chance this is an experienced editor pretending to be novice. I have reported this user to ANI. THF (talk) 08:23, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

THF has a habit of stating his very personally directed and negative opinions as if they are absolute fact. He has no real AGF at all in my experience; it's just something he throws out as a criticism when it's useful to him in putting somebody down. And his edits directly below (Re:Protonk) show clearly his habitual use of personal accusations and assumptions about someone's NEGATIVE intent: "He gave you a forthright answer to your original question, and you asked a question in response that most people would view as disingenuous,.....As wikiquette goes, I'm much more concerned about your misrepresentation...Abbarocks (talk) 16:31, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I would urge all interested parties to spend 10 minutes reading abbarocks' contributions and judge for themselves. Rklawton (talk) 04:08, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I would urge all interested parties to also look at these edits from THF for balance. notice the weasel words he uses and how he disparages those with opposing viewpoints, calling them fringe, conspiracy theorists, urban legends, etc. I think worst of all is this attack on a valiant public servant. Others have brought up issues of incivility with THF before and THF has pointed out that he works for a think tank. The question is does wikipedia want a person working for a POV pushing think-tank pushing POV on wikipedia, or should wikipedia strive for neutrality and stop all these nasty personal attacks THF is using? If people think that type of editing is okay behavior to tolerate on wikepdia, is it really okay to edit your employers entry with some dubious category tags? MehTsag (talk) 04:49, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Query: Which of the fringe conspiracy theorists that I called a fringe conspiracy theorist do you believe it is beyond the WP:CIVIL pale to call a fringe conspiracy theorist? Because I'll be happy to show you admins (or, at a minimum, reliable sources) who agree with me for any of them. You realize that we have a whole WP:FRINGE policy that necessarily requires us to discuss whether anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists like Voz de Aztlan are mainstream or not, right? The fact that you have to reach back to August and point out a defensible neutral edit that no one in a highly-trafficked article has objected to in six months to make a content-dispute claim against me speaks for itself. THF (talk) 05:19, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

• Comment: THF is misleading by double synthesis.Voz de Aztlan was never the RS. Yale Herald (which THF has accepted as a RS)was the RS and it was not even quoting Voz de Aztlan but rather someone who works there. Abbarocks (talk) 14:48, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

• That Abbarocks is now claiming that the policies that prohibit us from giving weight to Voz de Aztlan conspiracy theories disappear when one merely quotes such a conspiracy theory coming from the mouth of the head of Voz de Aztlan demonstrates my point very nicely. We are either being trolled or we are faced with an editor incapable of understanding Misplaced Pages policy; the disruption to the project is indistinguishable. THF (talk) 15:42, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I provided on a brief highlight of the vile material you posted. But if you want me to trim it down even more, then I will point to a former Major General and a former Attorney General. With respect to editing your employers entry people probably assumed good faith since you did not point out that you worked for the organization in the edit summary. MehTsag (talk) 05:32, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

That's a content dispute (and one where I happen to be completely in the right), not a civility complaint. You're in the wrong place. THF (talk) 05:50, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Saying that "NB Ramsey Clark hasn't been an attorney general in over forty years, or credible in over thirty. The fact that he has taken the case is almost prima facie evidence of its meritlessness." (emphasis mine) is not a content dispute, it is a civility complaint and you happen to be completely in the wrong. Please do not tell me where I should and should not be. MehTsag (talk) 06:03, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Discussing the credibility of a source is absolutely required under WP:WEIGHT. I fail to see the WP:CIVIL problem, since Mr. Clark is not a Misplaced Pages editor. To repeat, WQA handles civility complaints, and you are upset with the WP:WEIGHT policy. You can have the WP:LASTWORD. THF (talk) 06:09, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

No, I am upset with the way you characterized Mr. Clark in an unproductive and uncivil manner. I do not have time for this nonsense, I am pointing out a civility issue within a wikiquette alert conversation, an instead of addressing the you are telling me where I belong and what I am upset about, please do not assume anything about me sir. I have put the links to a smattering of uncivil comments by THF out of the 100s of uncivil comments he has made, I will let others decide the issues involved in this wikiquette alert. As I do not enjoy being treated uncivilily by the above editor I am removing myself from this conversation now gentlemen and ladies, my $0.02 have been added. Note that THF amended his above post while I was posting this edit. MehTsag (talk) 06:22, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Hey User:MehTsag, thanks for WP:OUTING THF here... I was wondering who he was... now I know!

Were you planning on identifying the policies violated in the offending edit or were just just implying User:THF has a WP:COI as a personal attack?

In all seriousness I think all three of you can't see past personal issues you have with User:THF and are actively looking to find fault in his work. -- samj _in 09:22, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Comment: Not so,Sam; I've only mentioned his edits directly related to me and my edits and one other right below on the wikiquete page. He took me to ANI right after I placed this alert. I haven't taken him there. He's the one with Attorney power and experience, not me. He's the one whose User page has been deleted, apparently to hide some of his POV, not mine (this is relevant since I am being accused of POV pushing). I could just as easily say that I think you can't see past the personal support you have for THF and are actively looking to find fault in the work of those who he has trouble with, but that would not, I think, be AGF, so maybe you should not be making those assumptions either. Abbarocks (talk) 15:20, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Sarcasm is not needed and not appreciated, it is uncivil and annoying. I did not "out" THF, I pointed to a post where he "outed" himself. I do not appreciate your sarcastic personal attacks Sam, and my posting and the policy I cited speaks for itself. MehTsag (talk) 15:16, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Am I reading this(above) correctly? Does THF work for the American Enterprise Institute? If so I'm going to quit Misplaced Pages right now. I do not want to be on the wrong side of those people, no way, and he's already told me "there will be heck to pay" if I don't revert an edit. I am dead serious and I think someone who knew,if its true, should have warned me sooner. I will immediately drop this alert and revert every edit THF wants me to and never be heard from again. Is it true? Abbarocks (talk) 15:35, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

• • • • • Alert Voluntarily Dropped ! I resign. No hard feelings with anyone, from my end. Misplaced Pages is just not for me. I don't fit in. Sorry to waste people's time. Abbarocks (talk) 16:10, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Protonk overly dismissive?

I would appreciate an outside view as to whether User:Protonk is being uncivil or I'm being overly sensitive. I asked Protonk at User talk:Protonk whether he had a reason to delete a prod notice and P replied "Not really" and referred to the article's "author" . I questioned P's use of the word "author" (which struck me an an attempt to assert ownership by proxy) using the sentence "What does "the author" mean on a wiki?" P described that as "cute", which I don't understand precisely, but is obviously a Bad Thing, as P went on to say that P has "0 patience" for it . My explanation of the point I was trying to make was admittedly blunt (presumably the opposite of cute) and P's response was simply "This conversation is over" .

I think that Protonk is falling short of the standard of civility expected of an experienced user. Am I being oversensitive? Thompson Is Right (talk) 14:01, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

• In a word yes. In longer words your final message was aggressive made real assumptions of bad faith. The point of prod is that anyone can remove a prod for any reason. If you don't like it then AFD is thataway. Opening a wikiquette alert over this is, well, unbelievable. Spartaz 14:09, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
  • I had hoped to make it clear that I am not concerned about the deletion of the prod, but about what seems to me an incivil response to a civil attempt to discuss it. I admit to being provoked before making my last comment. However if the consensus is that P's comments represent an acceptable level of discourse Misplaced Pages then so be it. Thompson Is Right (talk) 14:39, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
    • I'm guessing that Protonk didn't check the history and wrongly assumed that Elonka, who is on a wikibreak, had 'authored' the article. PhilKnight (talk) 15:28, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with Protonk's response. He gave you a forthright answer to your original question, and you asked a question in response that most people would view as disingenuous, and he explained himself further. As wikiquette goes, I'm much more concerned about your misrepresentation of Protonk's original response as "Not really" when the actual response was much more substantive than that. Elonka did contribute the majority of substance to the article. The prod was further explained in his original edit summary; he simply felt that the deletion decision would be controversial enough that it should be made by AFD. THF (talk) 15:32, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Closing as resolved I believe the comments above show this is not uncivil - directing further comments to someone who has been more involved in the article is not a bad thing. Removing PROD's when immediate deletion would be controversial is a valid responsibility for any editor, as the next step would indeed be WP:AFD. No incivility, no public attacks. Please let me know on my talk if you have issues with this reasoning. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 17:45, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Jmcw37 and others not responding to arguments

There's been a feud on Talk:Oom_Yung_Doe for some months now about whether or not the on Chung Moo Doe is a reasonable source to include in the article. I've pursued a few content-centered avenues for resolving this dispute -- RS/N was more or less inconclusive, an RFC received no response, and a request for mediation was not agreed to be any of the parties that disagree with me. Discussion on the talk page has now sprawled across several sections: 1, 2, and now 3.

As I see it, one central issue preventing this disagreement from simply being resolved on the talk page is the refusal of some of the other editors to respond to my arguments (sometimes taking the form of specific statements that users aren't planning to participate in further discussion, i.e. to answer my questions). It seems to me that this is a violation of WP:EQ, specifically:

• Do not ignore questions.
• If another disagrees with your edit, provide good reasons why you think that it is appropriate.
• Concede a point when you have no response to it.

I'll limit this complaint to User:Jmcw37's behavior to avoid making things too complicated. Specific arguments which User:Jmc37 has not addressed during this discussion (while continuing to readd the source on the handful of occasions when I've removed it, and more or less ignoring me pointing out that he's not addressing my arguments or answering my questions) include:

• "It seems to me like it's easily possible that one single person emailed the FMC explaining that Chung Moo Doe was a cult, and providing some information on it, and the FMC simply included that information in a page and explained that it came from former members without doing any of its own verification. ... Does that sound easily plausible to you, or no?"
• "I'm removing this source from this article. If anyone would like to restore it, I would ask that you first address ... Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_27#Freedom_of_Mind_page_on_Chung_Moo_Doe the issue dougweller raised on the noticeboard."

That first question I asked at least seven or eight times.

Do the folks here agree that this behavior is a violation of WP:EQ? Subverdor (talk) 19:41, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to have to say that nobody is required to reply to any question, no matter where it's posted. There could be many reasons why they don't reply: intentional ignoring, not watchlisting the article, away from their computer ... the portions you quoted from WP:EQ would, IMHO, apply to cases where something was purposefully reverted or removed, and you deserved to know why. Purposefully excluding you from a discussion as an attempt to undermine your edits, or to drive you away would be inappropriate. So, in other words, you cannot force anyone to reply to you. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 20:18, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

From a cursory glance at that talk page: "I can't stress enough how unreasonable I think it is to refuse to respond to my arguments and yet still revert my edits." (Subverdor)

Whether or not his characterization is accurate, he's asserting that what's going on is the type of behavior you said it would need to escalate to before it became inappropriate. Subverdor, do you have any diffs to show more specifically what's going on? arimareiji (talk) 20:32, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Taking a closer look at the page, I notice this as one example of what you're talking about. I agree with you about it not being a particularly reliable source, if it's an RS at all. The disclaimer of "this is what some people told us" at the top is particularly troublesome.

But I don't know what to tell you, because the unfortunate reality on Misplaced Pages is that if you're outnumbered - as you seem to be - you'll never get anywhere, even if you have a dozen different guidelines and policies that are explicitly on your side. I'm sorry to advise such a course of action, but honestly the best thing is probably to let it drop and count your blessings that you haven't been as vehemently opposed in other edits. Just my 2 cents. arimareiji (talk) 21:09, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Right, the issue is that my edits removing this source get reverted (examples here, here, and here) claiming that the source is "still under discussion" or that there is not consensus that it needs to go away. Nothing I'd describe as meaningful discussion seems to take place, though; it seems that the other editors on this article are essentially claiming veto power over changes to the article on the basis that "there isn't consensus" without feeling the need to justify a good reason for the consensus. I think the most clearly I can summarize it was how I did on the talk page some time back; search for "this is frustrating". There are (or at least were, a month or so ago) people willing to spend time talking to me about this source -- they just seem extremely reluctant to address what I'm saying.

I can understand that as a practical matter, strength of numbers is important when wrangling over edits to a topic, but certainly that's not a good argument that it's right to acquiesce to such a situation :-). The outnumbering only seems to be 2-to-1 or 3-to-1 or so here anyway. I've been encouraged in this whole effort by policy sections which seem to say that weight of numbers is not at all paramount in policy disputes (example here).

I'll list some other specific examples of what I'm talking about -- this source has got a clear factual inaccuracy right near the beginning (search the talk page for "definitely and absolutely wrong"). I've also been spending time and energy responding to a claim that the Freedom of Mind Center is the same as the Rick Ross institute (which, by the way, it isn't), and so the fact that the Scientology article references reprinted newspaper articles hosted on the Rick Ross site means that this page hosted by the Freedom of Mind Center must be reliable (search for "don't seem to be at all the same to me"). In both of those instances, after I've put time and energy into (for example) researching the Rick Ross institute and discovering that what my fellow disputant is saying seems to be more or less made up, that conversation simply petered out with my questions unaddressed while the debate continued in other, more comfortable territory.

I know it's not possible for anyone to "make" people answer my questions or talk to me :-). Continuing to debate a contentious issue, though, while tactically ignoring inconvenient questions or arguments, seems grossly unreasonable, which is why there are specific etiquette policies against it. Most of what I'm looking for here is simply another opinion or two to (hopefully) confirm my perception that what's going on here is a violation of the etiquette policy. Subverdor (talk) 23:14, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

User:JCRB Posts Insulting Ethnic Remarks & Deletes My Replies

User, JCRB, keeps posting insulting statements about Spaniards. He says that phillipinos are Spaniards. His remarks are offensive to my heritage since I'm a Spaniard and we don't consider philipines as Spaniards. The world knows that philipinos are not Spaniards. When I disagree, he DELETES my remarks. He's a phillipino with a racial identity crisis who thinks he's a Spaniard, and wants everyone to think they they're Spaniards. I urge that you ban him. The following link is the discussion page where he posts his insults:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Hispanic#To_JCRB

Thank you, and I hope you deal with the probelm since he greatly offends my heritage. 68.173.91.50 (talk) 20:38, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

We don't censor opinions simply because you happen to disagree with them. I cannot find any instances of User:JCRB removing anything from the talk page, in fact the major incivility, personal attacks and removal of talk page comments are from yourself. You are warned. Anymore and you are risking being blocked. --neon white talk 01:01, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Echo. There's no evidence in the edit history of him removing anything. You're treading on very thin ice when you make nasty remarks about anyone's racial identity, and coming to WQA and repeating it is a Very Bad Idea. arimareiji (talk) 20:20, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Do you consider Filipinos to be inferior to Spaniards? Why is that insulting to you, to be included in a category with them? I read through his post, and don't see him as doing anything wrong, simply stating that the great influence Spain had on them. . And link to where your replies were deleted at please. Dream Focus 04:19, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

User:IMatthew

This user's comments toward members of the professional wrestling project have been angry and offensive. He left the project several months ago after some members of the project opposed his RFA. Since then, he has returned several times to attack editors and criticize the project. His comments and edit summaries, including , . He holds other editors to different standards, however, as shown here. GaryColemanFan (talk) 02:58, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Just a comment: the whole "" thing is nothing more than a running joke. He doesn't actually go around censoring people. J.delanoy_adds 03:11, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I just want to mention that I take full responsibility for my comments in the discussion cite above, and that it is my fault for him causing him to say those certain things.--₮RUCӨ 04:03, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay, this can probably be solved quite easily if IMatthew and Truco avoided each other from now on. Truco has already taken responsibility for some of the edits, but this seems like both of you have exacerbated the situation, causing stress on both sides. A temporary avoidance of the other will solve this problem, I believe, and thus avoid the need to take this further. I hope both of you agree to do this. Best, PeterSymonds (talk) 17:18, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Jayron32 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

This user disrupted me with a threatening warning , when asked why gave this rationale , and subsequently refused to provide evidence of his explanation . But he was happy to threaten me again , and again , and again , and again , and again . 94.192.38.247 (talk) 04:42, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Looking at the edit histories, 94.192.38.247's accusations appear to be factually incorrect, while his edit history shows some significant civility problems. Edward321 (talk) 05:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Edward. 94.192's complaint is disingenuous. He knows exactly what Jayron was warning him about. This is frivolous harassment. THF (talk) 17:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

KP Botany (talk · contribs)

There has recently been a discussion on Misplaced Pages talk:Bots/Requests for approval and Misplaced Pages:Bots/Requests for approval/Addbot 19 where KP Botany has requested a review of one of Addbot's recent tasks. In the discussion KP Botany has accused users of using "administrator machine guns", "... to gain a solid front", and "threatinging and obfruscating the discussion", as well as other uncivil edits such as this one. I would like to request an uninvolved editor to help mediate these discussions. —Nn123645 (talk) 07:07, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes a WQA is appropriate at this point in time. Relevant links are Wikipedia_talk:Bots/Requests_for_approval, Misplaced Pages:Bots/Requests for approval/Addbot 19, Misplaced Pages:Bot_owners' noticeboard#Addbot and Misplaced Pages:Bot requests#WikiProject.2FTaskforce Spammer.. Headbomb {_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 07:13, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Edit conflict.

But of course, you did not include any diffs that show what these were response to and just how many editors over there are threatening to block me, telling me I'm "flipping out," "freaking out," "slandering pretty much everyone who disagrees," that I have a "grudge" against a bot, from an admin, no less.

Don't bother me with this, as long as it is less than half the story, considering the number of BAG members going after me as ferociously as possible personally instead of addressing very real concerns about the use of bots without community consensus.

As long as Misplaced Pages administrators are the ones who set the tone, and support the gang up and personally attack mentality, this is just more of the personal attacks.

--KP Botany (talk) 07:19, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I gave the links to the full discussions. Please stop being WP:POINTY.Headbomb {_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 07:28, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

KP Botany I opened this WQA primarily for the reason that I would like to prevent this dispute from escalating. It is not a personal attack on you, nor an attempt to bury your concerns, but rather an attempt to resolve this as peacefully as possible by requesting outside input. I would also like to point out that I am not a BAG member, a full list of BAG members can be obtained at WP:BAG. —Nn123645 (talk) 07:33, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

User:WLaccount

WLaccount (talk · contribs) has been engaging in blatant incivility and, more particularly, calling for unwarranted bans in AFD discussions and users' talk pages as noted , , I NOMINATE GOG DODO BE BANNED FROM WIKIPEDIA, I NOMINATE GOG DODO BE BANNED FROM WIKIPEDIA again, , . The pages in question are as follows: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Henry Mortensen (actor), Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kriss Perras Running Waters, User talk:WLaccount, and User talk:Shawnpoo. MuZemike 08:27, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

• Note – user has been warned about said conduct , , , , and but to no avail. User has also removed speedy templates , and . MuZemike 08:34, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I think you'd be best off at WP:ANI. —Nn123645 (talk) 08:42, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Looking at the comments, I was just giong to do that. MuZemike 08:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Well briefly looking over his contribs all I can say is he appears to be a new editor that is WP:OWNing articles. I see you and other editors who commented on the AFD posted a section on his talk page about it. As the editor appears is new and may not understand policy I think it would be a good idea to point him to the adopt-a-user and editor assistance. —Nn123645 (talk) 09:02, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I left a note on WLaccount's talk page regarding this. In hindsight the referral to ANI may not have been neseccary, WLaccount seems to be confused about policies and willing to change his behaviour. —Nn123645 (talk) 10:04, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

User:ShamenWeb

This user seems to be obsessed with mocking User:SchuminWeb. They claim that this was done by someone else using their account, but offer no explanation for or where they added pictures of this user with insulting captions. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:30, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Not sure what you are claiming is a civility issue here. You've provided diffs of a user simply editing their own user page. Was this a mistake? --neon white talk 02:12, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Editing their own user page,yes, and placing photos of another user with a similar name with insulting "fat joke" captions attached. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:18, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I think perhaps you have been confused by the (seemingly deliberate) similarity in usernames. The guy in the pictures in Ben Schumin, known around here as User:SchuminWeb. The guy adding the pictures with the insulting captions is User:ShamenWeb who seems to be trying to make it appear as a coincidence by adding the Native American stuff to his user page, all the while adding back in insults directed at Schumin. Frankly, I suspect Shamen is a returning user with an ax to grind. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:40, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, having stumbled upon this report a short while ago, I agreed with the above and decided to go ahead and place a block. —Travis 03:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I think that is extremely premature and over the top to be honest. Has the editor been asked to remove the content as is suggested in guidelines? Has the other user objected to the use of the image? maybe he has given permission. We need to assume good faith until the editors respond. --neon white talk 16:19, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Allow me to expand my previous comment: I also examined the user's talkpage and contribution history before taking action. I did AGF, but ended up with a different conclusion and blocked, primarily, as a username vio. —Travis 17:36, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

You can see on his talk page that I did discuss his civility issues with him, SchuminWeb left him a note asking him to change his username, so obviously he did not want to mocked on the user page, and after the last incident, given the bad faith shown by this user's actions, I gave them a "final warning" that a repeat of this behavior would be unacceptable, and he pretended not to understand what the problem was. Good faith was extended to this user, and bad acts were returned in exchange. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:32, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Personal attack by User:Future Perfect at Sunrise

I started a thread on data and citation manipulation to which this admin referred to as "stirring the shit", and asked me why I wouldn't "stop stirring the shit". no comment.--Bizso (talk) 12:11, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I WAS SENT HERE FROM WP:ANI! Are you joking me?--Bizso (talk) 12:46, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Joking, no ... I answered your complaint in ANI, as did others. You were advised in ANI that future NPA/civility complaints should be in WQA, not the current one, as it was already there. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 12:52, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Bwilkins, your own comment was "But please, do open this at WQA so I can say the same thing"... No other comments on the ANI thread made it clear that they were suggesting that 'future' complaints belonged here, but not this current one. That said, I don't consider this a personal attack at all, or uncivil enough to discuss even on this board. --Onorem♠Dil 12:57, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Jeez, you admins are all a bunch of morons, you've lost track of what's uncivil or not. Stop protecting your own kind and open your eyes... Dipsticks... 85.75.184.33 (talk) 15:49, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, no admins have commented here. I will say that your comment is obviously unacceptable. Please try to stay civil. --Onorem♠Dil 15:52, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Our resident dipstick expert is, of course, User:Walnutjk, who delights in randomly reverting half a dozen of my edits twice a day. He's as banned as banned can be. Thanks for rolling him back. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Disruptive User:Veecort returns to ITT Technical Institute

User:Veecort, who had been editing the ITT Technical Institute article with a negative POV, has returned from three months of inactivity. He has accused all and sundry of being "PR" for ITT Tech .

He has also been incivil on the article's talk page , and he has also posted a profane off-topic rant there (while Misplaced Pages is not censored, I still question whether this is appropriate for talk pages).

It should be noted that Veecort's negative POV on the subject isn't really in dispute. I'm not including diffs because this all happened months ago, but they can be provided if needed. McJeff (talk) 12:36, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Please note that because I couldn't find the wikiquette alert template I haven't yet informed Veecort of this discussion. McJeff (talk) 12:38, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

No need for a template. Just say "Hi, because of the incivility issues, I have opened a Civility Complaint at WP:WQA, thanks"...just like that. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 12:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I will warn him. Dcoetzee 12:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Just FYI, I have an NPOV, very cordial template at User:Edit Centric/Templates and Color Coding if you would like to use it. Edit Centric (talk) 19:13, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I have to unmark this resolved because Veecort is still insisting on placing the COI tag on the article without making any justification and continuing hostility on the article talk page . Would AIV or ANI be more appropriate here? McJeff (talk) 06:23, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

An identical edit from an IP with no other contributions (Veecort has been known to engage in both IP editing and meatpuppetry (Old SSP case), and Veecort then readded some months old text to the article . McJeff (talk) 13:09, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure that you have already noticed the talkpages of both Veecort and that IP address ... I did potential 3RR warnings some time ago. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 13:21, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Tothwolf Failure to Assume Good Faith

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

On this AfD discussion ], User:Tothwolf suggested that by AfDing the article (an article about a susection of a residential subdivision) I was violating the policy not to disrupt wikipedia to prove a point. He wrote a note to the future closing admin to note my "bias" linked to a previously deleted version of my User Page. In that deleted version, I had expressed at length negative feelings about Misplaced Pages. My feelings about Misplaced Pages are changing, becoming more positive, and I deleted my comments because I decided to put my old feelings about Misplaced Pages behind me and give it a fresh start, and I continue to make constructive edits in good faith, and would like the same fresh start I have given Misplaced Pages. I don't think it is right for editors like Tothwolf to continue to use my old deleted views to undermine my contributions to discussions when there is no evidence that my old views are coloring my viewpoint in new discussions. I think this violates the spirit of WP:AGF.

I respecfully but firmly asked Tothwolf to remove his comments directed to me and those directed to the closing admin attempting to prejudice the admin against me, as I don't think such comments are appropriate or constructive. I received from him in response a note that I should read WP:CIVIL.Mmyers1976 (talk) 17:22, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

• It looks to me like Tothwolf is a little off base, and how he even knew about the old revision of your user page is unclear. Apparently he scanned through old versions of it looking for "dirt" as it doesn't seem you two had any previous interaction. The accusations of being POINT-y and biased are off base, but, as far as the admin closing the AfD is concerned, I think they would know to ignore such a cheap ploy. From what I can see here, you remained civil and tried to keep the AfD on topic, so I don't know where he's coming from really. My suggestion is not to let his baiting and bad faith affect you, I for one do believe in redemption and assuming good faith, and I'm glad to see you trying to turn around your attitude and see Misplaced Pages in a better light. I think what I'm seeing here is just an editor who knows just enough to quote a policy at you and dig through your contribs, but doesn't understand that such things are not relevant to an AfD, only the strength of the arguments presented are important there. You could be Jimmy Wales' childhood friend, or the guy who spit in his latte this morning, it makes no difference. My advice is to ignore this guy, I'll leave a note myself at that AfD. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:48, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you so much. Mmyers1976 (talk) 17:52, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually Beeblebrox, I don't think you've all the facts here.
I always WP:AGF but what I continue to see in that AfD is Mmyers1976 systemically browbeating anyone who expresses an opposing view.
As for Mmyers1976's user page, anytime I see a blanked page I check the history. I think most of us who do much in the way of reverting vandalism do. What I saw in the last revision of that page absolutely shows a bias and not pointing out such a thing in an AfD would be a disservice to both Misplaced Pages and to the other editors and admins involved in that AfD.
With the replies Mmyers1976 left on my talk page (that they edited multiple times) after I suggested they read WP:POINT I don't think my suggestion to read WP:POINT was off base at all.
Considering how Mmyers1976 continues to handle things, and especially the misuse of WP:WQA in an attempt to force me to change my comments I feel my suggestion that they read WP:CIVIL was even more pertinent. If Mmyers1976 has a problem with my comments at the AfD then they are free to take it to AN/I.
Someone also should point out to Mmyers1976 that posting something and then continually editing it, especially when changing the meaning or trying to give it more bite goes against talk page etiquette WP:REDACT and AfD guideslines.
Furthermore, in the future Beeblebrox, please WP:DTTR. I've been around Misplaced Pages a very, very long time although that might not be obvious if you are looking at the creation date for this account. You templating someone such as myself who has been a very active contributor in and of itself steps on the boundaries of WP:AGF. I'm going to remove the template you applied to my talk page now and this will be the first time I've ever had to remove such a thing.
--Tothwolf (talk) 18:51, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Tothwolf, Beeblebrox is not at all off base here. The only point you made above that has any merit is that Mmyers1976 should use preview rather than editing his comments after posting them. That said, you still have provided no evidence as to why the AFD in question is pointy and have done nothing to show how your bringing it up was in good faith. Why do you think it was pointy? What has Mmyers1976 said or done to make you think the AFD in question was a disruptive nomination? Additionally, commenting on a KEEP is not at all browbeating. The fact that Mmyers1976's citation of guidelines caused someone to strike through their keep !vote is evidence that his comments are reasoned and fact-based, not at all "browbeating." You may have perfectly valid reasons behind your comments, but your post above does nothing to explain them, and simply makes it look like you are not in fact assuming good faith, for whatever reason.

As to WP:DTTR, see also WP:TTR which is also an essay. In short, if a template says exactly what you want it to say and will be faster than typing it out by hand, why not use a template on the talk page of someone, no matter how long they have been around? The Seeker 4 Talk 19:12, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

(maintaining thread, tempted to refactor)
Actually, Beeblebrox was way off base as I've already pointed out, but let me further clarify...
"It looks to me like Tothwolf is a little off base, and how he even knew about the old revision of your user page is unclear. Apparently he scanned through old versions of it looking for "dirt" as it doesn't seem you two had any previous interaction."
"My suggestion is not to let his baiting and bad faith affect you"
Those comments alone go against the very WP:AGF guideline template they applied to my talk page. I don't feel the need to quote the rest as I feel its clearly obvious Beeblebrox is applying a double standard.
"That said, you still have provided no evidence as to why the AFD in question is pointy and have done nothing to show how your bringing it up was in good faith. Why do you think it was pointy?"
Ah! Now someone asks the right questions!
First, the user page, past or not is very much relevant when attempting to gauge the bias of someone who has nominated an article for AfD and especially when they browbeat others. You may not agree with my opinion there (and you certainly don't have to), but that's how I see it. Mmyers1976 may not like my opinion or my pointing out their userpage, but pointing out such things during an AfD is very much valid and Mmyers1976's attempts to force me to change my comments goes against WP:CIVIL, hence my suggestion that they read it.
I find some irony in that just as soon as they read WP:CIVIL they decided to file a "Civility Complaint" against me via WP:WQA.
To further clarify why I feel WP:POINT applies not just to the comments Mmyers1976 made, but to the AfD itself, check the timestamps on these changes:
14:55, 26 February 2009 - Talk page
15:00, 26 February 2009 - Article
15:05, 26 February 2009 - AfD
This change, however, was very much justified, however doing this while creating an AfD is bad form and speaks of bias:
14:50, 26 February 2009 - Article, notability
"In short, if a template says exactly what you want it to say and will be faster than typing it out by hand, why not use a template on the talk page of someone, no matter how long they have been around?"
Quite simply, because it is an insult. When you template a regular instead of actually trying to talk to them, you are telling them that your time is more important than theirs. That in turn implies that you don't consider their contributions to be very important. Put simply, it is a slap in the face and I don't know of a single established editor who with a clear conscience would claim otherwise.
--Tothwolf (talk) 21:08, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

(minor edits to preserve pronoun agreement)Tothwolf, I don't want to have any bad blood between us, so maybe I can explain my reasons for bringing this here that will make it less affronting to you. You say my "attempts to force to change comments goes against WP:CIVIL, hence suggestion that read it." I did not attempt to force you to change your comments, I requested that you do so, and my action is the suggestion that WP:CIVIL, which you call upon, gives for handling such a situation: "If some action is necessary, first consider discussing it on that user's talk page. Be careful not to escalate the situation, and politely explain your objection." and later "In the event of rudeness or incivility on the part of another editor, it is usually appropriate to discuss the offending words with that editor, and to request that editor to change that specific wording." I requested that you change your comments, just as WP:CIVIL directs one to do, and therefore does not go against it. You did not edit the comments, and refered me to WP:CIVIL. Now you say "I find some irony in that just as soon as they read WP:CIVIL they decided to file a "Civility Complaint" against me via WP:WQA." Well, WP:CIVIL says: "If the problem continues, the mediation cabal can be requested to intervene. The mediation cabal consists of volunteers who will work with all editors involved with the conflict, and attempt to decrease tensions and find a compromise. Alternatively, Wikiquette alerts is a non-binding noticeboard where users can report impolite, uncivil or other difficult communications with editors, and seek perspective, advice, informal mediation, or a referral to a more appropriate forum." I was following WP:CIVIL in letter and spirit, and I promise it was not some attempt to tick you off. As far as me AfDing the article so soon after putting a notability tag, it was a rookie mistake, PostOak called me on it, and my comments cheerfully accepting his constructive criticsm, thanking him for it, and promising not to make the mistake again are there in the Talk page for everyone to see, so I don't know how that supposedly proves bias. As far as "browbeating" goes, no one else here, no one else on the AfD, including the people I respond to, sees me as having done so. Someone even changed their opinion based on my comments to them. That's what people do in discussions. I did not browbeat anyone. In general, what people are telling you here is that there is no evidence that my past beliefs about Misplaced Pages influenced my decision to AfD the article, and I assure you, it did not. I assure you, in case we bump into each other again, that my opinion of Misplaced Pages has changed for the better, I work in good faith, and I am only interested in making constructive edits. As my reactions to PostOak's correction and the issue of my editing my comments demonstrate, I am very open to constructive criticism, and I hope next time before prejudging me as biased and disruptive, you will talk to me first, and I can clarify myself, or if I made an honest mistake, it can be quickly and easily fixed without any animosity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmyers1976 (talk • contribs) 21:49, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

First, you don't have to worry about there being bad blood between us. I don't tend to hold grudges against people. If I did, I'd never accomplish anything here on Wiki.
"If some action is necessary, first consider discussing it on that user's talk page. Be careful not to escalate the situation, and politely explain your objection."
Most people are not going to change their comments when someone speaks against them in an AfD and especially when they feel that they are justified in pointing out something.
"I was following WP:CIVIL in letter and spirit,"
I'll concede that point then. I still think this was brought here prematurely.
"As far as me AfDing the article so soon after putting a notability tag, it was a rookie mistake"
I can understand that as well. If I'd been in your shoes I don't think I would have AfD'd the article at this point but I think I can see where you are coming from.
"Someone even changed their opinion based on my comments to them."
One person changed his !vote to rewrite. As I mentioned in my comments there, a rewrite is likely justified anyway. For that fact, there is no such result as a rewrite, it'll be a Keep anyway and up to individual editors to rewrite/improve the article.
"In general, what people are telling you here is that there is no evidence that my past beliefs about Misplaced Pages influenced my decision to AfD the article, and I assure you, it did not."
I'll admit, I have a hard time with this. I've seen far too many vandals and unhappy people turn to AfD and {{prod}} in an attempt to sabotage Misplaced Pages and it is still a problem. In fact, I'm actually having to clean up a large batch of that right now. (I can cite specifics if need be but I think most people here have probably seen this in the past too.)
"I assure you, in case we bump into each other again, that my opinion of Misplaced Pages has changed for the better, I work in good faith, and I am only interested in making constructive edits."
If I might ask, what changed your opinion of Misplaced Pages?
Again, there isn't any animosity or grudge holding, but at the time I left my comments in the AfD I felt I needed to point out the potential bias. I'm actually surprised no one else did earlier in the AfD but that is likely because that particular AfD has been low traffic.
--Tothwolf (talk) 22:43, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Point taken on editing my comments (though I don't think I edited them after he had replied to them), I will make sure in the future that if I need to change a comment I made that I strike through rather than overwrite, and will also do so sparingly. I do have one question - Tothwolf seems to take umbrage at my bringing this issue here, but said that if I had a problem with his comments in the AfD I could bring them up in an AN/I. I have been under the assumption that this board here is a less formal, earlier step in dispute resolution than an AN/I. Am I wrong? Mmyers1976 (talk) 20:16, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

You are exactly right that this is an informal non-binding process and is considered the first step in dispute resolution. At this point I don't see any need for administrative action in this case. As to not templating a regular, the Tothwolf account hasn't been around that long, and I'm not a mind reader, and it applied to this situation so it doesn't make any difference to me. You are trying to bring something into an AfD that has no place there. Plenty of people have differing opinions at AfD, just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they are acting in bad faith. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:44, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

You are correct. ANI is when administrative action is needed. This is for an informal third opinion/advising of civility issues without wanting/needing admin action. I actually was going to comment on that but forgot to in my above reply to Tothwolf's posting. Also, changing comments is not a huge deal when on one has replied yet, but it is better to use preview and avoid edits like that. Again, not a big deal, just a minor point, I only mentioned it because I couldn't honestly say "you didn't make any valid points" to tothwolf. The Seeker 4 Talk 20:46, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

My thanks to you both for helping out with this. I agree that no administrative action is needed, mostly I wanted an impartial opinion that I could reference if an issue like this comes up again. Thanks again, Mmyers1976 (talk) 20:56, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

(fixed Beeblebrox's indentation), (edit conflict)
Let me try to answer Mmyers1976 before I reply to Theseeker4 as I have quite a long reply queued up which will further complicate the message threading.
You don't have to strike through everything but changing large parts of your comments after posting them, especially in an AfD is not a good idea. Like many others, I compose the majority of my replies offline and when I go back to add them, finding the comment has changed is never a good thing.
Yes, AN/I is more formal. I felt you bringing this to WP:AGF was in bad form. At this stage this wasn't something that justified any sort of dispute resolution. You may not like my comments (and you certainly don't have to agree with them) but if you spend much time around AfD you'll find my comments are pretty mild comparatively.
IMO, bringing something like this here at this stage wastes my time, your time, and the time of those who volunteer here. I've now spent an enormous amount of time replying to this that I would have otherwise spent building out a section of Misplaced Pages that I'd been working on today.
--Tothwolf (talk) 21:01, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

(ec) What is a little surprising is that some form of reply was made before Tothwolf even had a chance to reply ... in this forum, both sides need to be heard before coming to conclusions. Yes, diff's matter, but this forum is intended to generate a more moderated discussion when one-on-one discussions have failed on individual userpages. It is indeed, non-binding, but let's let both sides talk before we do. Havin read Tothwolf's unfortunately rude reply about "don't template me", I'd also agree that they need to have a closer read of WP:Do template the regulars ...the minute you think you're beyond being templates, you've forgotten your role as an editor/community member. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 21:02, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I considered Beeblebrox's response a borderline personal attack. To be perfectly honest, that only made it more difficult to reply. I was actually writing a reply to Mmyers1976 when Beeblebrox left that first reply but I ended up scrapping it.
"Havin read Tothwolf's unfortunately rude reply about "don't template me""
Please see my reply to Theseeker4 above as I think that will help clarify this issue.
--Tothwolf (talk) 21:17, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Don't ever dare to consider the words of a volunteer trying to diffuse a situation a personal attack - you're not that important. An editor had an issue with you - it appears they tried to resolve it on your talk, and they were not pleased with the resolution, so they brought it here. You didn't HAVE to reply, but your silence would have likely spoken against you. Don't ever think you're too important/too busy to respond to the concerns of a member of this community. It takes only a few moments to try and resolve, rather than be aggressive in the way you are. Your actions above now make me want to look further into this entire incident - which, according to you would be a waste of time, but I take the community that we both signed up for to be important, which means resolving issues, not simply throwing them away, and blaming others for "wasting your time". (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 21:33, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

(I'm having trouble breaking down your reply to compose a response.)
I don't think this was the right way to handle this, and yes, it very much felt like a borderline personal attack.
We are all volunteers here, well, except for Jimbo and a handful of staff.
"It takes only a few moments to try and resolve, rather than be aggressive in the way you are."
Of course. I've actually tried to reply here haven't I? But aggressive? I'm probably one of the more laid back people on Wiki...well, except for MBisanz (and I don't know how he keeps so calm).
"Your actions above now make me want to look further into this entire incident"
You won't find anything beyond the diffs I've posted here. I have no connection to the article at AfD whatsoever nor do I have any issues with Mmyers1976.
To further clarify, I didn't say this "wasted my time", I said it wasted our time. This was something that should have never come to WP:WQA at this stage.
--Tothwolf (talk) 22:57, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

• Let me just be sure I understand your position, Tothwolf. Dredging up an old version of someone's user page to try and get their opinions discounted and accuse them of bad faith at an AfD unrelated to their userpage is fine. Using a level 1 template to ask you to assume good faith is a personal attack. I think you will find the vast majority of users would disagree, as evidenced by this conversation so far. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:52, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
  • This is what I'm taking issue with.
    
    "Dredging up an old version of someone's user page to try and get their opinions discounted and accuse them of bad faith at an AfD unrelated to their userpage is fine."
    Do not put words into my mouth. I linked to Mmyers1976's userpage to point out there might be bias.
    
    Templating a longstanding contributor is an insult. I will assume you were not aware of this prior to today but you are aware of it now so I will let it go.
    --Tothwolf (talk) 23:12, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Using templates is a individual editor's decision, however you choose to react to them is up to you. 'letting it go' is the only thing you are able to do in the circumstances. --neon white talk 23:42, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. I just wish more people understood that it is often considered an insult to template a regular. Tothwolf (talk) 23:45, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, you have forgotten to read WP:Do template the regulars...or are you too good for the occasional reminder? You're not the victim here. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 00:00, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Again, I take exception to this much more than I do the template itself. As for whether or not templating a regular is insulting, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point and that's ok. Tothwolf (talk) 00:13, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

• I do feel the need to point out that Mmyers1976 might want to glance over WP:NPA after having made this edit:
  (and here I thought we were finally done with this...)
  --Tothwolf (talk) 23:59, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
  • It's merely letting anyone who might question my "bias" on a discussion based soley on my old user page comments that the issue has already been discussed, just as AfD discussions are archived in case anyone wants to start a new page for a subject that has already been deleted. That's not an attack. Nor is it "personal" because it is not directed at anyone. really, it seems now like your just scratching bare earth trying to find something, anything to ding me for. Mmyers1976 (talk) 02:11, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
    • (fixed indenting)
      Mmyers1976, where it crosses the line is this edit that I pointed out where you included a link here with my username attached to the comment:
      "Still, one editor who disagreed with my AfDing an article dredged my deleted comments up as proof of my "bias". For anyone tempted to follow his footsteps, see the results of the Wikiquette alert"
      It is not appropriate for you to post a "head on a pike" type warning on your userpage and this does indeed get into WP:NPA. Furthermore, many people would consider it to be outright trolling and you may wish to read over WP:UP. Specifically, see WP:UP#NOT item 10.
      "really, it seems now like your just scratching bare earth trying to find something, anything to ding me for."
      Not at all. You should realize however that your comment implying that I'm trying to "find something to ding you for" goes against the very WP:AGF guideline you are linking to.
      --Tothwolf (talk) 10:32, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Reference to a nonbinding, nonpunitive dispute resolution discussion is a "head on a pike' type warning". Right. Okay, I'm finished discussing this with you. Mmyers1976 (talk) 11:20, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Tothwolf ... can you please read this...I'm not saying you are, but just warning that you don't want to become one. Your actions are becoming more insulting to Misplaced Pages as a whole, and disruption is not good. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 12:27, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Bwilkins, I'm familiar with it. Can't recall ever having been called one on Wiki just yet.
"Your actions are becoming more insulting to Misplaced Pages as a whole"
Can you be specific? I thought I was pretty clear in what I said to Mmyers1976 here:
Based on Mmyers1976's response above and a further attempt at a refinement in the edit here (watchlist) I feel Mmyers1976 got my point but is attempting to work around the guidelines anyway. I'm aware I could remove the link myself in keeping with the guidelines but because Mmyers1976 wishes to use this forum for mediation I'm bringing it up here.
When I attempted to point out potential bias in the AfD I was attempting to keep the playing field level. I feel I made my point there and based on Mmyers1976's latest response I still feel it was the right thing to do.
Unfortunately what I think I'm seeing now is Mmyers1976 attempting to game the system and use WP:WQA as an archive and a means to establish a precedent to utilize later when people challenge their opinion.
Now, I spent almost 8 hours replying to comments here yesterday (I can provide diffs if necessary). I won't be spending that much time on this today. If Mmyers1976 wants to play a dramafest game with someone, they will have to pick someone else because I'm done playing.
--Tothwolf (talk) 13:10, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Here's the short version: although another editor's actions may explain your reactions, they may never excuse them. You have spent the entire space above justifying your uncivil actions. It is you who are gaming the system, and attempting to demonize someone for having an actual concern over your actions. That is tantamount to attempting to dissuade them from editing. Do not diminish others feelings. Do not discard complaints. I will have to admit that at first reading, I was probably more on your side ... however, the disdain you have shown your fellow Wikipedians above is some of the most disappointing series of actions I've seen. If you had issues about the other editor's comments in AfD, then you should have begun DR yourself, rather than be uncivil in return, and moreso be uncivil in your "defence" above. Consider yourself warned about similar future actions. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 13:41, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Bwilkins, Should we solicit some outside opinions? I'll write up the RFC if need be.
I'm all for not biting a newcomer but it's pretty darn clear at this stage that Mmyers1976 is not a newcomer and brought this here only to try to game the system. I have no doubt in my mind they had hoped that someone here would tell me to remove what I'd said in the AfD and that is not ok.

Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining— Judith Sheindlin

I do want to state one more thing for the record, which is how I even noticed the addition to Mmyers1976's userpage
After I made this reply I decided I'd leave an apology on Mmyers1976's talkpage, something along the lines of "I'm sorry we had a misunderstanding and got off on the wrong foot. If you happen to ever need some assistance with something on Wiki such as templates, categories, wiki markup, etc, leave me a note on my talk page and I'll try to point you in the right direction."
Instead, when I clicked on their username to follow over to their talk page, I find what I feel is a personal attack.
--Tothwolf (talk) 14:34, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I've sat and watched the above WQA for a while now, and BMW knows why. But I can't just sit by and let Tothwolf keep picking apart the WQA mediators who are trying to find the causes behind this issue and the middle ground to solve it. Tothwolf, you're behaving like an elitist here, and that is just NOT acceptable. You've been here since this time, last year. By comparison, I have been editing here since 2006. I have received my fair share of templating from other users, and I always look at it as a learning experience. "Did I screw the pooch on that? Oh wow, I'm sorry." Approaching this whole thing with the attitude that your "stuff don't stink" and that "...bringing something like this here at this stage wastes my time, your time, and the time of those who volunteer here." is extremely presumptuous. It is not your station to opine what are wastes of our time. We're mediating disputes here, that's what we do. This is how I, BMW, Neon White, The Seeker4 and others have decided to volunteer our time here. Your entire conversation track above is very "uppity", and does nothing to help the issue along toward resolution. Edit Centric (talk) 16:48, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Please don't assume I've only been here a year. This account is only about a year old as I worked as an anonymous account for a number of years prior. This last year I was pretty busy elsewhere so I wasn't active as much as I once was anyway. I've actually been on Wiki since near the beginning. I had to give up my original account years ago due to a problem with an online stalker.
Now, that doesn't make me any better than you or BMW, or anyone else here. We are all volunteers and we are all here (hopefully) to try to improve Misplaced Pages.
I'm not complaining about the templating. I already let that drop if you read back some. Let me make a list of what I'm not happy with here so we don't have to wade back though all the comments above.

1. Attempt by Mmyers1976 to use WP:WQA to further their own agenda.
2. Beeblebrox jumping in and making all sorts of presumptions and getting into borderline personal attack territory
3. Just when I think things are finally settling down after I leave this reply and I'm about to try to offer an apology to Mmyers1976...
4. I find this on their userpage.

--Tothwolf (talk) 19:39, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

1. Accusing other of having an 'agenda' is not assuming good faith, something, judging from the above discussion, you have problems with doing.

2. Getting to the bottom of disputes is often difficult and takes some time and discussion, editor are here to help, they may make mistakes, the are not attacking you, if they do point it out in a civil manner.

3. This has been removed, page complies with guidelines, don't drag up old stuff. --neon white talk 19:56, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)Wow, I thought this was pretty much over. OK, let me just lay out my perspective on this as it currently stands. I don't like the new content on Mmyers user page any more than the rest of you, I thinks it's unhelpful and unnecessarily confrontational, and he should probably remove it, but it is his user page and if that's what he wants it to be, so be it. Tothwolf, we are here because an issue was raised about a possible breach of etiquette by you at AfD. Discussing that means we have to discuss you, that does not make any comment about you a violation of WP:NPA. Notice that I used words like "apparently" and "I think what I'm seeing is" etc, not "this user is an evil monster who must be stopped". You did bring something into an AfD that had no place there, but this is getting waaay overblown at this point if you ask me. I think a better idea than trying to create more drama is for everyone to just back off and let this cool down. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:02, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Neon white, the content is still on Mmyers1976's userpage. I just linked to one version of it. After it was brought up here, they made a "refinement" edit here
Beeblebrox, I still feel I did the right thing linking to Mmyers1976's userpage to point out potential bias. Some people might not like it, but has a very valid place in AfD. AfD should not be biased but unfortunately it often is. While I don't agree with how you initially approached this when Mmyers1976 came here, I'm willing to step back.
--Tothwolf (talk) 20:16, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Personal attack by admin Scarian

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

User Scarian used a name calling personal attack against Beantwo on Beantwo's talk page in violation of Misplaced Pages policy. Beantwo (talk) 12:15, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I just read through your talk page. It sounds like he was trying to tell you to calm down, which it seems you still need to do. I am not commenting at all about the merit of the block, but if you feel it was unjustified you should bring it up at WP:AN. Your warning yourself, "banning" yourself and posting an unblock request when you were not blocked was disruptive, which is why Scarian removed it. Please calm down, don't take anything personally, and return to improving Misplaced Pages. If you cannot do that just yet, then walk away from Misplaced Pages for a bit to relax. I don't mean to sound condescending at all, we all get frustrated from time to time, and bad/premature blocks do happen, but being pointy, even on your own talk page, never helps anything. The Seeker 4 Talk 12:24, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I realize an admin is probably going to back another admin but do you seriously condone name calling by an admin as appropriate? If I were to have done that it would have been another ban. Beantwo (talk) 12:31, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I assume then, as you have not actually made it clear, you refer to the "Please don't be an idiot" comment. Hardly name calling, it's asking you to refrain from behaving like an idiot, not calling you one. See also meta:Don't be a dick where it advises those 'being called a dick' "...to consider the possibility that it is true. If you suspect that you may be a dick, the first step is to become aware of it. Ask yourself what behavior might be causing this perception, and if you can't work it out, politely ask those that perceive it to explain or clarify. Once you have determined which behaviors are causing the problem, try changing them and your mode of presentation. In particular, identify the harsh words in your communications and replace them with softer ones."--Alf 12:49, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Inferred or not this behavior by a so-called admin is egregious and insulting, especially considering Misplaced Pages has policies on civility and neutrality and citing sources. Beantwo (talk) 12:55, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Jamiebijania

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

This user posted on my talk page "Hi,i can only conclude one thing,you are racist" here which I removed, but he reverted here. I gave him a warning on his talk page here, which he later removed here with the edit summary of "Stopping a racist freak." I hope I am not alone in my feelings that these comments are unacceptable? Jenuk1985 | Talk 12:34, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

You are not. I have informed the user in question about our civility policies. Hipocrite (talk) 12:52, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the speed of your actions :-) After a bad morning, you have restored my faith in humanity! Jenuk1985 | Talk 12:54, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I would not be above taking this to WP:ANI. "Racist" is not a word I take lightly, but that's me. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 13:23, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I considered it, but to be honest, if this is now the end of it, its pointless taking it further. All in the past now! Jenuk1985 | Talk 15:33, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

No problem. If the issue happens again, you will need to take it to ANI, as we're not able to impose blocks. Good luck! (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 16:25, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Collectonian's behavior

Collectonian tried to get an article deleted, and failed, the consensus Keep. So she waited, as she had in the past, until she thought no one was around to notice, and then deleted everything and posted a redirect. I undid this. She then insults me, once again, calling me a stalker. "figured the stalker was still there - tag for merge)" The entire history for this article here. Any article I work on, I add to my watchlist, I also monitoring various AFD listings and the operation rescue, I certainly not stalking her. She has accused me stalking among other things in the past, that a constant insult whenever someone disagrees with her on any article she goes to, and even distorted things so badly she had administrator to post on my talk page about it, he believing her until I cleared things up. You have an editor with a long history of trying to get the same article deleted twice, pretending to follow consensus then returning to an article to destroy it when she thought no one was around to protest, and resulting to uncivilized behavior when she doesn't get her way. I can't seem to search through the AFD and other places on wikipedia, and the tools at http://toolserver.org/~sql/afd.php?user=Collectonian no longer work. Anyway, to search the wikipedia for the total number of times she has accused me of stalking? Dream Focus 19:24, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

You have a pattern of behavior and a known history of harassing me, and in repeatedly engaging in forum shopping to try to get what you want (I count, what three or four different places you posted to complain about "History of quaternions") and refusing to both yield to consensus or follow guidelines. You also seem to be overly fond of filing unwarranted Wikiquette alerts from the number of times you've popped in here lately. And let's not forget your far more uncivil user page, which is nothing but a blatant attack piece against other editors. Administrators aren't stupid. They looked at your history and agreed about your behaviors were wiki-harassment, as have multiple other editors, including in your previous complaints here. There is nothing uncivil about redirecting a non-notable article. The AfD closed as keep on non-existent notability guidelines. When you, as usual, immediately reverted it I noted you are still stalking and started a discussion. You are the one who is uncivilized in your ridiculous grudge over your article being deleted because I nominated it. Get over it, grow up, and move on because your borderline obsession with me is just plain disturbing. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 19:42, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

How exactly was me noticing on my watchlist that you tried to delete something again, which you failed through afd to get deleted previously, count as stalking? And you only nominated my Gantz equipment article for deletion, after arguing with me on my talk page. There was conflict was before it, and is not based on that. Dream Focus 19:45, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

It wasn't deleted, it was redirected per the usual way of handling an unnotable book. Which it is. The AfD result does not mean "can never be redirected or merged ever", particularly in that case where the keep reasons are based on a now non-existent notability standard that was rejected by community consensus as NOT being usable to determine if an article should be kept. And "your" article was nominated for deletion because it failed all guidelines for existence, and it was deleted by community consensus for the same reason. I don't see you running around constantly making personal attacks against everyone who agreed with me in that AfD, you just keep deciding to come after me, making false reports here, false reports in 3RR, and constantly making personal attacks at every chance you can. As I said, get over or seriously go get counseling or something. This is just plain out freakin ridiculous. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 19:52, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

And the usual pattern starts up again. It is ridiculous that you can't stop accussing me of stalking. Its ridiculous you keep trying to blame all of this on something it is not. I complained about your behaviour on an article, you then deleting the talk page there, and then went to my user page. AFTER that event, you decided to nominate my Gantz equipment artice for deletion. Stop twisting things around, saying I'm after you because of that. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. And the History of Quadrains was not forum shopping. I posted here, and was told to bring it somewhere else, I going there, and we working it out. That's just two places posted in, because the first place was a mistake. Just another ridiculous accussation you throw at me. Dream Focus 19:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)