Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:37, 9 November 2005

Ukrainian Team: Let's meet here.

Ukraine-related topics in WP

Hi again! Please take a look at Ukraine portal here at Misplaced Pages. It may be useful to find out what's going on in UA-related topics. You may want to add two announcement boards there to your watchlist:

• Portal:Ukraine/New article announcements (don't forget to announce your articles there too),

and

• Portal:Ukraine/Ukraine-related Misplaced Pages notice board

Regards, --Irpen 07:21, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Andriy, once again I offer you to engage into some kind of constructive discussion. I see what position you are coming from and I respect that. However, your language and pattern will lead nowhere. Instead of deleting, cut-and-pasting, cursing and throwing occasional phrases that disrupt article's flow, please do some constructive editing. Many articles do need improvement to be sure but we don't need to bring this spirit here. If it is too much to ask of you to engage into creative editing, please make a better use of talk pages. I hope, you will bring some positive contribution to Ukrainian topics. --Irpen 07:06, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I also very well understand what is behind your editings and would like to remind you that Misplaced Pages is not a propaganda machine. Any wrong information should be removed from the articles and, be sure, it will be removed. This my positive contribution to the Misplaced Pages. It improves the quality of the resource, because wrong information is much worse than lack of information. If you are not agree and would like put the information back, please folow the Wikipedia_official_policy and cite a cite credible sources. Switch yourself to a constructive work, it will help you to find mutural understanding with most of Wikipedians, including myself.--AndriyK 07:44, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Andriy, your work on Ukraine-related articles and other contributions are appreciated, but please keep in mind that other Wikipedians have already put in a lot of work to make them what they already are, and this is a collaborative project. Conflict and stress are hugely counterproductive, as we have learned from past experiences in this community. In the long run your contribution would be even more positive if you would wp:assume good faith and be a bit more wp:civil. Regards, Michael Z. 2005-10-6 16:28 Z

Dear Michael, thanks for your message. In fact, I just reminded Irpen that s/he (as everybody else) should respect Misplaced Pages policy. (You can check this. I signed my messages on my and Irpen's talk pages). Is this a reason for a conflict or stress? ;) --AndriyK 17:14, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Just that, huh? Or should I quote from the original messages you posted at ua-wikipedia talk pages about my work in exact words that you were using and calling others to join in? You may consider apologizing but you don't have to, as I said. I won't loose my sleep over this. If that anon phobic attack on my talk wasn't yours it was from one of the buddies in response to your call. That was indeed somewhat painful to see after the work I put writing about my country for Misplaced Pages unlike your foul language that speak about no one but yourself.

Michael and myself had MANY disagreements and we always worked them out. It is OK to disagree. If you stay polite and raise your objections civilly, fine, we'll work them out. If they remain unresolvable, we could ask for more eyes checking this. Anything can be worked out with patience and good faith.

Other than Michael and myself there is just a handful of editors who are trying to cover Ukraine grossly underrepresented in en-wiki. If you want to help, fine. Join in! If all you do is deletion, uncivil attacks, unwarranted Ukrainization of names (Chernihiv) and random dumping of information that advance your views into the articles (Bogolyubsky into Kiev) you will just make things more difficult. Or was that again some of those you recruited who did that? Chernihiv in its recent form was written by me from a totally pitiful shape and I took all care I could to use names (not just Russian but Polish too) correctly in the contexts. Then you, guys, come and do nothing but the name changes actually enforcing a modern Ukrainian name to the times it doesn't belong. I mean can't you improve the article, add to the history, etc? Similar with Bogolyubsky. He was introduced into two Kiev articles right into the very first paragraph. Why waste everyone's time? If you see the important info is missing and have no time or desire to do it properly, add it to talk! If you hesitate to write for the article because of your English, don't hesitate a bit! My own English needs improvement too and Michael and others copyedit my text all the time.

One more time, I suggest we stop this warring. Don't suspect anyone who you disagree in being anti-Ukrainian. We really have enough edit conflicts with some of our neighbors to add to this. --Irpen 03:19, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, I accept your retraction of uncivil remarks and I hope anon who signed Gutsul will retract his. Anyway, let's move on. I hope we will manage to cooperate in imrpoving the UA-coverage. There certainly will be differences but they can be worked out. Vsyogo naykrashchogo, --Irpen 07:47, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

напиши рац . предложение - пусть web-дизайнер немного доработает логику сайта : перед редактированием или сохранением текста запрашивать перевод 10 контрольных слов на национальный (украинский) язык (например rope -> мотузка)-> если введут правильно -> сохраняется -> а кацапи ж не знають як по українськи правильно то вони хрен и сохранять текст

Lviv

Most of your editing there was indeed just substitution of what was already there with a POV terms ("Nazi ally", "occupation", etc). These are valid POV's but still not universally agreed. You may want to check the Allies of World War II article's talk for this discussion. Your removal of the link to OUN is unwarranted. There is only one factual disagreement. The article said that Soviet policies of Russification were preceeded by Ukrainization (that was indeed the case to suppress the Poles and replace them in the city, initially by Ukrainians. Russification came later. If you disagree, cite your sources. BTW, you are one step away from violating 3RR if you haven't violated it already while I was writing this. Please make a use of talk:Lviv. --Irpen 07:01, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Oh, yes and to keep the context of the discussions you may respond at your own talk. I will keep an eye on it. Similarly, I mostly respond at my talk when I get the message there. --Irpen 07:07, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I had a really difficult day and I may not get to all the conserned articles immediately but I will get to them eventually. BTW, your calling on others to help you find a workaround against 3RR is childish. It will take only an anouncement at Russia portal to get some angry voices to your edits and I am, so far, avoiding that hoping we can work something out and agree on things.

In what I agree with you is that the Lviv article does need a lot of work being so Polonocentric (not that I am against it covering the Polish history of the city as well). If you manage to get attention of some quality editors to it, it would be really great. --Irpen 03:00, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Please do not twist my words. I never said that Lviv article is "Polonocentric". The article need a lot of work because of it incompleteness, not because of "Polonicentricity" or any other "centricity". I am trying to find somebody who could improve it. In any case, wrong and inacurate information should be removed immediately. As I said, wrong information is much worse than lack of information.--AndriyK 07:41, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

You never said that indeed and I didn't imply so. It was me who said that. I will get to your comments on Lviv there. In the meanwhile, I explained every single change I did after you in Ukrainian language.

I asked Gutsul to register so that there would be no confusion who leaves what and where, It is up to him now. His Ukrainophobia attack was the worst thing I've ever seen written to me yet on WP. -Irpen 07:48, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Ukrainian nationalism

Dear friend, Ukrainian nationalism is the last thing we want in this project already torn apart by the Polish, Romanian, Belarusian, and Lithuanian nationalists. If you think that your naive ukrainization of the names for ancient East Slavic tribes is a good idea, you are wrong. They settled in some areas of modern-day Russia, not in Ukraine only. The Severyans, for example, never called themselves "Siverians" and have not been known as such until you came here. In Old East Slavic (like all other Slavic languages) the word for north is pronounced as "sever" not "siver". If your aim here is to engage in endless and ultimately fruitless edit wars and reverts, you'll get plenty of it, until your childish attitude towards editing is changed. --Ghirlandajo 11:36, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Dear, Ghirlandajo, in fact thay did call themseves "siverians". The letter "jat'" (I do not have it at my keyboard, but it looks similar to "ъ") was prononced as "je" in the Nothern Rus and as "i" in the South. Siverians (in spite of their "nothern" name) lived in Southern Rus.

Have not it been known, before I came here? I'm glad I gave the people a chance to learn something.

I hope you'll fill some gaps in your education. But for the time being, please do not blame peopple for Ukrainian (Polish, Romanian, Belarusian, Lithuanian etc.) nationalism just because they're not so ignorant as you are.--AndriyK 18:57, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Look, I had my own share of arguing with Ghirlandajo. He and I disagreed many times but before calling him ignorant check his contributions. Actually it is a good practice to do before going into name-calling which is better avoided altogether.

Andriy, I have to start using more harsh words about what you are doing. Your fight to spread Ukrainian nationalism into Misplaced Pages is doomed. Please reconsider wasting yours' and others' time. If not, you will just force others to spend time undoing your damage, time that would be better spent for bringing in more information to WP.

I do see that some edits you make bring useful info and I welcome that. However, much of what you've done so far requires the repair rather than adjustment. One more time, I am asking you to curb your aggressive spread of questionable edits. You view mine and others' ideas questionable. Fine with me. We all make mistakes. But your staunch disagreement to compromise to find the golden middle is unrpoductive.

And one more thing regarding the names substitution. The few most annoying things people can do are (excluding personal attacks):

• making an edit which all it does is name substituiton/addition
• making an edit which just deletes stuff (well, this is sometimes good but very rarely)
• insert disconnected phrase into an article to advance some POV

On the former (names), check my proposal at Misplaced Pages:Eastern_European_Wikipedians'_notice_board#Games_with_names and discussion at talk. Now, would you please give a little thought to what several people are trying to tell you? If you abide yourself by a proposed restriction and, at least, combine name substitution with other improvements that would be a good step.

I hope my comments do not offend you and you will reconsider certain things even if a little bit. --Irpen 19:34, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Moving articles should be done with care in cases where you may expect disagreement since it it much more difficult to undo (usually requires listing at WP:RM and voting). Before you move the article, when you can reasonably expect a disagreement, propose it first at the article's talk. The names there are for a reason. The reason may be wrong. There is talk to discuss that rather than imposing your views on the community. --Irpen 20:43, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I just follow Misplaced Pages Guidelines, so I do not expect any disagreement. --AndriyK 21:09, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

This is hipocrisy to say you didn't expect disagreements with thse move. For suggested example see my recent talk:Polans. --Irpen 22:22, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

You like talk about "cooperative spirit", but you do not act cooperative. You do not follow the WP policies. You lyes. You remove usefull information from the articles. You put wrong information there. You don't here if I ask you to cite souses or remove the bullshit from the article. You are completely contrproductive.

I do not see any reason to talk to you anymore. I've seen. It does not help. --AndriyK 22:33, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

moves by cut and paste

I will not be responding to your personal attacks. However, please note that it is not allowed to move by cut and paste. If you want to move the article, but can't, you must list it at WP:RM. Cut'n' paste moves will be reverted as vandalism which won't count against 3RR. On the other hand, vandalous reverts themselves will be counted. Think about it and write something for articles instead of name changes (this is just a suggestion you would likely ignore, but just in case) --Irpen 07:56, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Also see talk:Putyvl. --Irpen 10:32, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

I see you keep reverting to your earlier cut and paste moves. Please understand that this is doomed and also against the policy. On the other hand I agree with your final version of Beregynia, the article I created some time ago. If you would have just proposed it earlier, rather than stubbornly adding a Ukrainian word as if it is a Proto-Slavic or whatever you want to call this language, there would not have been any reverts. I am glad the article is better now than it was before you got to it. --Irpen 12:25, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

3RR

Andriy, you violated the WP:3RR in Ukrainian language article and even with a margin.

• 1st rv 21:03, October 9, 2005 AndriyK
• 2nd rv 16:51, October 9, 2005 AndriyK
• 3rd rv 11:55, October 9, 2005 AndriyK
• 4th rv 09:28, October 9, 2005 AndriyK
• 5th rv 08:13, October 9, 2005 AndriyK
• 6th rv 07:31, October 9, 2005 AndriyK (additionally corrected 1 letter typo in this revert, but nothing else. Enough even without it anyway)

This is sufficient for a block already but this is not my intention to have you blocked. And you just reverted again. I would like you as anyone else to help imrpoving the coverage of Ukraine in English Misplaced Pages. However, if you continue these wholesale revertions, I will list you at the blocking list because this would be the only way to make article's further development possible. I hope there is still a chance that you will stop waging these wars. --Irpen 06:48, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Rv of vandalism does not break 3RR. You removed usefull and verifiably information and this is vandalism. Did you count your reverts? Should I list you for blocking?--AndriyK 06:52, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

This was not vandalism. Read WP:3RR. One more revert, and I will list you for blocking. I hope you come to reason but I kind of had enough of this rv wars. With you blocked, this will stop. Or , please read and respond at talk, there for a reason. --Irpen 07:00, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

As I said you many times, you should not put unverifiable information to the article. This information will be removed. If you don'st, I'll ask other people help me. You personal judgements are not appropriate for the artcle and they will not be there. --AndriyK 07:06, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

There are talk pages to discuss that. You revert wholesale a whole bunch of edits well sourced and explained. Explain at talk what's wrong, wait for what others say. Do not revert anymore. Or do... The policy is there for a reason. I never listed anyone for blocking because everyone I ever dealt with was able to read and respond. I hope you will do the same. --Irpen 07:09, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I explained it to you many times: there is no creadible sources supporting fantasies. Have you understood? I do not believe. So I'll try three times more, although it hargly can help. There is no creadible sources supporting fantasies. There is no creadible sources supporting fantasies. There is no creadible sources supporting fantasies.--AndriyK 07:12, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Don't behave silly. As for your asking others to help, I've seen you were doing it at ua-wiki. It is up to you and them to decide what's ethical and what's not. Another clue, you can create sockpupet accounts to circumvent 3RR, but sooner or later people get caught for that and are banned for a long time. There were examples. I suggest, you just start working with others at talk pages. If you do, I will do all I can to discusss things. This is not about winning. This is about improving the articles. You think my edits make them worse. It is a legitimate opinion. Find some others who agree with you on particular edits and I will withdraw them. Believe me, I don't like this any more than you do. --Irpen 07:17, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Irpen's edits are made in good faith and can't be considered Misplaced Pages:Vandalism. Don't break the 3RR; count to ten slowly and go to the discussion page. And I hope no one considers using sock-puppet accounts; that would be discovered and lead to a serious ban. —Michael Z. 2005-10-10 16:54 Z

Dear Michael, thank you for your message.

You can check yourself that Irpen removes information based on creadible sources (Ukr. Constitution, Ukr. Census results for instatnce) and adds completely wrong information. (Please see Ukrainian language). I repeated many times, that if s/he believes that her/his information is correct, s/he should cite sources. But it does not help. S/he continues to destroy my edits and adds unverifiable nonsence. Is it good faith?

I did use talk pages. (Please have a look Talk:Ukrainian language) But it does not help. S/he continues pu the wrong information back.

One more point: Polish names of Ukrainian cities. I find it very usefull to have them in the first line of the corresponding articles. Why Erpen makes a problem of it? Do you understand it? Why usefull and correct information should be removed? Just to pin down Poles?

Concerning sock-puppet accounts. I am not a computer expert, I do not know yet what it means. --AndriyK 20:04, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Irpen's edits don't fall under the definition of vandalism. Your breaking of the three-revert rule is not justified. "If you violate the three-revert rule, after your fourth revert in 24 hours, sysops may block you for up to 24 hours." —Michael Z. 2005-10-10 20:32 Z

Ukrainian Team: Let's meet here

Greetings, Andriy! I saw your proposition on the Muzon.com and I think I will be able to help. I have just done some additions to the entry on Skoropadsky and Prometheism. Can you point me in direction of some areas affected by our "big brother"? Hrycian

Hi, I am new to the project and was just interestd by your statement in Maidan. When I read the article on Chernivtsi, I did understand what you are saying. The article is biased and I would say - propogandist. I will read the rules of contribuing to Misplaced Pages. And then we may engage in some project. --ROMAN.

Hi, Roman. Nice to meet you here! Please sign your messages on the talk pages (but not in the articles) typing --~~~~. I hope our Ukrainian team will grow rapidly and we'll improve the Ukraine-related content. Regards. --AndriyK 21:56, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Andriy! I'm not sure how many people other than Ukrainians will read about Ukraine on Misplaced Pages. Still, the content of the pages on Ukraine is important. I would like to help out as much as I can as well. Here's a question: how can we change "Kiev" to "Kyiv"? Volodya Nazarkevych

Hi, Volodya! It would be difficult to change Kiev to Kyiv right now. We have to wait until Kyiv becomes more common in English. But most of other Ukrainian cities and towns should be spelled according to the Ukrainian pronociation. So just look trough the Ukraine-related articles and correct misspelligs. The article title can be changed by using the "move" button in the toolbar above the article. But this works only in the simpliest case. For more complicated cases, we have to wait until our community becomes a bit stronger. Otherwise the "Russian Mafia" will start the "edit war" and we defeet.

Even more important, to extend Ukraine-related articles and make them more balanced and correct, or write new articles about Ukraine (but please do not create very short "stub" articles).

Hope to here from you soon. --AndriyK 12:50, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Good to see more editors interested in expanding Ukrainian-related articles.

Please try not to spend too much time on symbolic gestures, like changing the title of the article from Kiev to Kyiv. I've gone that route, and its just not acceptable as the primary name to the ears of most English-speakers. It took patience just to convince some productive editors that we should write "Ukraine" instead of "the Ukraine", but a reasonable argument backed up with references prevailed.

Concentrate on building the body of articles, and especially on adding material to achieve balance where editors have started articles with a limited scope. You'll find a list of articles needing attention at Portal:Ukraine.

And don't be afraid that you have to fight against a «група "русскіх патріотов"», or «вандалізму з боку "російської мафії"». Everybody here has their own point of view, but most of us are reasonable folks who are willing to listen to a convincing argument. There's the occasional difficult editor in every camp, but discussion and consensus will work things out.

Привіт, —Michael Z. 2005-10-19 22:48 Z

I agree with Michael concerning Kyiv/Kiev. We indeed have to wait until Kyiv becomes more common in English. But concerning most of other city/town/village/etc. names, this is not only "symbolic gestures". Misspelling of the names may often lead to mistakes. See, for istance, article about Polans. Bilhorod was misspalled as Belgorod and linked to Russian city of Belgorod, which is several hundreds kilometers from Kyiv and has nothing to do with Polans. In my opinion, correcting misspelled names improve the quality of Misplaced Pages and helps to avoid mistakes.--AndriyK 07:53, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I suggest that the information on Ukraine will be edited following such very simple approach: The geography, the tourist information as is eyes-witness. Microsoft World Map acronim is very usable, but it is't indisputable. History articles of the territories making Ukraine preferable from the different points of view. It is desirable to make references on contemporary records. But fictions such as " Чорна рада " are factual now. It is desirable to add the clause "great Russian goal analysis". We must be patient and persevering and we will organize command work editors for daily repare after vandals (or volyntary employees of KGB-FSA - let them wrote about they own goals, not about Kiev/Kyiv/Kyyv as (C) Microsoft). May be it is usable to host a mirror of the articles about Ukraine in Wiki, which created by Ukrainian editors team. PS. We use to name Kirgizia, now oure russian brothers and we say: Kirgystan. And nothing can be done about.

Discussion with Irpen

I saw your public call for attention to en-wiki (see? I read the same sites!) While I have certain objections to several statements you made there, I would be happy to see more editors for UA-topics. I once asked at maidan myself for attention to Orange Revolution article, but there was little reaction.

We may set up a separate board at Ukraine portal something like "Neutrality check board" where we will list and discuss articles with severe neutrality problems. What do you think? Have to go now. --Irpen 08:20, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Dear Irpen, if you'll stick at facts, it'll help to keep neutrality of the UA-relatedtopics much more than any "Neutrality check boards".--AndriyK 08:59, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Chernyakhiv

Please refrain from renaming articles. If you want an article renamed try to file a requested move.--Wiglaf 06:55, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Requested move is usually needed if the target article already exists. This was not the case.

My changes conform the Misplaced Pages guidelines Naming conventions, city names, if you see any problem, please explain before you revert.--AndriyK 07:29, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

This move does not concern a city name. It concerns an archaeological culture, which has a conventional name in English. The fact that the name of the town has a different form in Ukrainian is not relevant. This is an encyclopedia where we use the English names in currency. It is not a tool for renaming archaeological cultures.--Wiglaf 07:50, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Chernigov, Russkaya Pravda

About Vsevolod I of Kiev

Chernigov is Old East Slavic name, Russkaya Pravda is the common English spelling see Russkaya Pravda#Nomenclature --ajvol 07:56, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

East Slavs that lived around Chernihiv did not have the consonant "g" in their language. "Chernigov" is Russian name.

There is no common English spelling for "Ruska Pravda". Several different names are used in the English-language literature. "Russkaya Pravda" is just a transliteration from Russian. There is no reason to use it for the document created in Kyiv(Ukraine).--AndriyK 08:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

It was created in Kievan Rus, Old East Slavic state. --ajvol 08:15, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, in Kievan Rus, Old East Slavic state, but not in Russia. What is the reason to use the Russian name?

Please note that the place, where it whas created is the present day Ukraine.--AndriyK 08:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

See History of Russia. "Russkaya Pravda" is the common English spelling. --ajvol 08:29, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

There is no common English spelling. "Ruska Pravda" is used as well. History of Russia is written by those people as you that use Russian spelling.

Why do you revert Chernihiv? Do you have your oun opinion how "г" was prononce in old times? Then please cite sources.--AndriyK 11:15, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Russkaya Pravda, Chernyakhov culture, Chernihiv, etc

You know Andriy, it's a fact of history that sometimes conventional names in English come directly from the Russian language. In the history of Kievan Rus’, which is not "owned" solely by Belarusians, Russians, nor Ukrainians, sometimes we just have to settle for mentioning the modern Ukrainian name in an article, and living with a title that looks like modern Russian.

And if you'd just stifle your strident accusations of lying and propaganda, and the remarks about "Russian Mafia", if you respond to perceived slights like an adult instead of with a stream of invective and wails of "Irpen started it", maybe you will be taken a bit more seriously by established Wikipedians. You're the loudest of us advocates of Ukrainian point-of-view, and you're going to get us labelled as counter-productive whiners. I suggest you try to be extra-patient for a couple of weeks, and concentrate on some productive editing instead of a noisy crusade for Ukrainian terminology. Making changes around here requires a good reputation to achieve consensus, and you're quickly exhausting your good will and influence in this community. —Michael Z. 2005-10-20 14:15 Z

You know, Andriy, I have no objection to several (not all) of your renamings, like Petrovka->Petrivka, Putivl->Putyvl and several others (not derevlyans, etc.) but it is indeed better for WP to do some more editing. You did a good job expanding the Origin section of UA L. If we all do more writing, everyone would benefit. Please refrain from rude remarks in response. I am still composing myself but I will get back to UA L. Regards, --Irpen 20:40, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Copyvio

Your edit at has restored a page that is filled with copyright violations. I please ask you to not restore the page to this version. Thank you. Zach (Sound Off) 22:39, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Discussion at maidanua.org

Hi. I am, of course, in no position to tell you what to do and say. However, your comments at about User:Irpen were really offensive.

Massive article renaming is a waste of time. Overall, native speakers of English have absolutely no interest in Ukraine. Alternative spelling, like Kyiv instead of Kiev, is a real distraction to those who have at least some interest. Please, keep this in mind. You are not writing articles for yourself only.

I still hope you would reconsider your point of view and use your time more productively. For instance, you could double check name spelling in List of heroes of Ukraine and complete the list for 1999 (I've already inserted links to edicts -- these are commented out). Sashazlv 02:22, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Dear Sashazlv, maybe somebody has misinformed you, but I did not corrected Kiev to Kyiv. Moreover, I worried other people agains doing it. Just have a look at my talk above.

I corrected several misspellings of other Ukrainian cities, towns, subway stations that do not have any traditional English spellings. This is not against the Misplaced Pages guidelines and this allows to avoid some mistakes (see above about Belgorod-Bilhorod).

I am not a "zapadenec" as you were presumming, but I do not have any negative attitudes to any region of Ukraine. It's a pity, if you have.--AndriyK 09:29, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

AndriyK, attracting editors from other online communities to contribute to Ukraine-related articles would be commendable, but you really lower the effort with your uncivilized "Russian gang" rhetoric. And your personal attack against Irpen at Maidan is beneath criticism. The "detailed analysis" you mention there is so much manure: you started a revert war with him in your very first edits of Ukraine-related articles, and you're still holding a petty grudge. That you would go so far as to post an announcement on Maidan and at other forums to enlist help for your campaign is sad. From some of the thoughtful responses I read at there, I doubt you will find many gullible stooges who will listen to your hateful screed.

Irpen is a long-time member of Misplaced Pages and builder of its Ukrainian community; he is a knowledgeable and prolific contributor who's dedicated to maintaining a neutral point of view. He has repeatedly tried to engage you in constructive discussion and look for a compromise, and you have responded with name-calling and disrespect. You are a newcomer here, and in your brief tenure you've written nothing, only wasted other editors' time in revert wars and rude discussion. You are actively destructive, and you're going to give us Ukrainian editors a bad name.

To newcomers who are reading this: please don't be put off by this ugly demonstration. At Portal:Ukraine and its new articles board you'll see there's an active community of collaborating editors from different backgrounds, and many articles that need your contribution. —Michael Z. 2005-10-23 07:49 Z

Dear Michael, our discussion would be much more usefull if you were addressing the issues I mentioned in my messages at Maidan rather than giving very general comments. It would be extremely interesting to see your opinion concerning that two points.

You'll vever convince me that inserting any wrong/unverifiable infomation into Misplaced Pages articles is the same as "maintaining a neutral point of view".

You'll never convince me that lies and slander is "a constructive discussion".--AndriyK 09:44, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Kiev Metro

Hey nice to see someone taking notice on the site, anyway can I just ask you to wait for a while with the Ukranian trasliterations, I want to make a portal about all metro systems of the former USSR, which will have both Russian and Ukranian languages on the three Ukranian metro systems, Russian and Belorussian on the Minsk metro and ... so on. You are more than welcome to provide good, high quality images of the stations though... Best of luck. Kuban kazak 13:31, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

What has Russian language to do with Kiev Metro? You do not use Ukrainian names in the articles about the metro stations in Moscow, do you?--AndriyK 13:36, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

We will... the portal will be multilinguistic and multitranslitratnistic. As to answer your question, quite a bit, first of all the majority of the stations in Kiev still contain both Russian and Ukranian language references, moreover say tourguides about a European city will give the metro name in English, whereas Russian guides on Kiev will quote the Russian name. Moreover if you remember the way it was done, first part - station names were given in Ukranian then ~ late 1960's Russian is used, but on the announcers instead of saying the name in Russian, it will give the Ukranian name with Russian grammar (quite unique if you ask me). For example Zhovnevaya, Chervonoarmeiskaya, Ploshchad Zhovtnevoi Revolutsii and ... so on. Finally when I was in Kiev last year I overheard on a ratio of 20:1 in the metro the public giving the station names in...Russian, so for an entry into say Prague metro, giving Russian transliteration will not be at all right, but Kiev and especially when we will make Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk metros, both transliterations will be given. А если честно не занимайся дурью а давай вмести побольше фактов найдем про метро и вывесем, язык ты всегда потом успеешь поправить. Извени если ошибся но ты похоже в Киеве живешь? Даже если не живешь все равно приглашаю на форум метролюбителей у нас Киевлян (а точнее знатоков про Киевское Метро) мало, а это жалко. Удачи с фотографиями. Kuban kazak 14:47, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree, Russian guides on Kiev will quote the Russian name, but there exist the Russian version of Misplaced Pages, where Russia´n names belong to.

When I get to making the Russian version of the Kiev Metro I will promise of both Russian version and of course the Ukranian and Ukranian transliteration EVRYWHERE, unless of course will stop arguing and maybe you'll do that before me.

Если не заниматься дурью, то не следовало ревертировать те статьи, гдя я уже исправил названия.--AndriyK 15:04, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Статьи которые я начал еще не готовы для того чтобы их названия полностью меняли. Вот когда закончем описания станций, когда закончем все метро, когда вы предоставитe фотографии, и когда весь портал метро будет готов. То тогда хоть переводи на Занзибарский и давай транслитирации Англискому, а я посмеюсь. Ладно забей, дело твое, только дай закончить раздел а потом при согласие других коллег если решити то вперед меняйте что хотите. Но все таки ты из Киева или нет?Kuban kazak 15:25, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Вообще да, но в даный момент - нет.--AndriyK 15:28, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok I see that you already reverted some of the names of the lines already (to be fair it looks so childish from a third point of view) but have it your way although if I was in your place I'd start filling up details on the stations, and of course trying to find images. Вообще то если действительно охото помочь статье то мог бы начать Украинскую версию страницы, Украинская часть портала будет на вас лежать так что время в пустую тратить не желательно.Kuban kazak 17:46, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Removing content from talk pages

I noticed you removed a comment from someone's talk page when adding yours... in the future, please use the "+" link at the top of the page (to the right of "edit this page") to create a new section, or manually create a new section, but do not remove other people's comments. Thanks, Bushytails 18:42, 24 October 2005 (UTC).

This was my mistake. I am very sorry. --AndriyK 19:56, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Hello

Hello, I am Knyaz, I have been watching wikipedia for long time (almost a year) but registered only now. I wanted to thank you for your actions against the nationalist edits of User:Ghirlandajo. Please don't give up; most of his edits (ones about historical, political things I mean; ones about Russian people are usually ok) are in fact not applicable to wikipedia and very POV; what is the saddest is that he defends them by reverts and therefore disrupts wikipedia, as well does not disucuss in talk page, calls everyone nationalist and such. So, in case he starts reverting your edits, try to inform other good editors of Misplaced Pages out of whom there are many in Eastern Europe (including many non-nationalist Russians). Something needs to be done about it, as I checked his edit history and it seems he is doing such POV edits frequently. If we will all cooperate however, we will defend Misplaced Pages from all the propaganda some users are pushing and will keep it a respectable encyclopedia... I am trying to inform the contributors whom I respect about this problem, you could try that too; and try to watch his contributions from time to time. Knyaz 09:51, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi! Thank you very much for your support! I felt myself a bit isolated in Misplaced Pages after several edit-war attacks. Let's keep contact and find more users that could support us making Misplaced Pages more neutral and informative. It would be nice if we support each other. Regards, --AndriyK 14:10, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Blocked

Hi there. I have just blocked you for 24 hours owing to your three-revert-rule violation on Severians. When you return to editing, please discuss things rather than revert things. -Splash 21:06, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Your copyright violation

AndriyK, other things aside, this, this, and this edit of St Volodymyr's Cathedral was a copyright violation of http://ukraine-today.com/culture/religion/cathedral.htm

Please read again WP:Copyrights and remember that with few exceptions it is not allowed to copy and paste from most sites.

Also, as Sashazlv have pointed to you earlier, we cannot afford to have wholesale deletions of information from Ukrainian articles with few rare exceptions. Events with Filaret's seizure of the cathedral are relevant. If you think they are not properly presented, you are welcome to modify the presentation but not to remove the account of events as a whole. I hope you will learn something, finally. If you have anything constructive to say, while you are blocked, regarding this or other articles, you can post your comments here (block allows postings at your own talk) and I will copy them to the relevant talk pages. --Irpen 23:59, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I rimind you once more: you have to cite sources if you add any information to the article. All lies should be deleted from the article.--AndriyK 09:03, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Be careful

I don't care about your Czernichów spelling war. But if you revert other useful information, I will revert you by default. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 11:56, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

This could happen only exidentally. I am sorry. Where did it happen? --AndriyK 12:00, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Recent reverts

Having read the discussion threads recently, I found myself in a position of having nothing to add. I wholeheartedly agree with the arguments provided by others and am not willing to repeat the same things, which have already been told numerous times. On the other hand, I do not regard comments/sources provided by you as accurate, nor do I see your objections as (pardon the pun) objective.

With all that in mind, however, I do not approve of certain personal remarks against you (nor will I tolerate personal offenses by you, should you for some reason desire to employ such tactics in future).

Please, remember that the only way to "win" a revert war such as this one is to stop reverting and instead barrage "the enemy" (if you wish to see us in that light) with the facts and quotes from credible sources, preferrably in a neatly organized manner. Until this happens, I am going to stick to technical interpretation of Misplaced Pages policies (such as 3RR).—Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis) 14:18, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

What sources you would consider creadible, if Encyclopaedia Britannica is "increadible" source?--AndriyK 14:22, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Britannica itself uses different spellings interchangeably, and the main article title is Chernigov. I am sure they had their reasons to do it that way, but Britannica naming policies are not the same as those employed by Misplaced Pages. Per WP's policies, Chernihiv spelling must be mentioned and explained, but Chernigov must be used while it is still more common in the English language. If I may remind you, you (as anyone else) have the right to appeal Misplaced Pages's policies or even start a campaign to change them. While it is definitely much more work that logging in every day to revert the changes you do not like, it is the only "legal" (from Misplaced Pages policies' point) way to find out what the true consensus is. Heck, you may even succeed if you are patient enough, although I personally would not bet on it.—Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis) 14:35, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

In fact, Britannica uses Chernihiv for the title of the article. From that it's clear that that Chernigov is not common name in English (in contrast to Kiev) (the referencies are given in Talk:Chernihiv).

I do not see any reason to change the Misplaced Pages policies. I would like to make the articles to conforme the presently existing policies.--AndriyK 16:06, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Are thinking that Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions dictate what name to use within an article? Try changing all occurrences of Kharkov to Kharkiv in Eastern Front (World War II) if you want to learn more about that. —Michael Z. 2005-10-27 19:33 Z

As pointed to you elsewhere, Britannica uses Chernigov or Cherigov (Chernihiv) in all articles devoted to history, every prince and historical person's article use Chernigov. --Irpen 20:19, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Ditto.—Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis) 21:37, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Dear Colleagues, please note that I cannot answer the same question thousand times on thousand pages. I explained everything and gave referencies here and here. I admited from the very beginning that the spelling "Chernigov" is endeed in use. But it does not make the spelling "Chernihiv" "anachronistic". Because the spelling "Chernihiv" is used by creadible sources and applied to all periods of the history of the city. I gave the referencies. Please listen to the opponent's arguments if you indeed whant this to be a discussion rather than a badgering.--AndriyK 11:30, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

inuse

Please do not lock several articles at a time, if possible. Could you accomodate that? Thank you for starting to write. --Irpen 22:46, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I didn't lock any exited articles. I created two new articles and need some time to expand them.

Is it you job to prevent others from normal work?--AndriyK 09:15, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Not at all, as I said I welcome the articles. But it is considered a bad habbit to keep inuse for hours, let alone for several articles. You can work on them in oyur userspace draft names. But it is just an advice. People get annoyed by inuse kept for too long. Thank you, --Irpen 14:42, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Не позорь себя

Слушай ну что ты как ребенок вцепился в этот жалкий собор? Тебя мало с этого сайта банили? Мало тут замечания у тебя от остальных? Ты посмотри на себя со стороны чтобы не написали как не одаленно было бы от Украины ты сразу модерировать как муха нa д...o. Но зато сколько ты новых статей написал, больше 10? Вспомни тоже метро нет бы помочь, нет главное это чтобы правильная транслитирация была. Когда до тебя дойдет что эта энциклопедия не для тебя а для миллионов вокруг света. Им абсолютно плевать на транслитерацию. Создавай свою версию Википедии и блин что хочешь туда пиши. Я кстати дал нормальное к-во источников включая со стороны УНСО. Впредь если хочешь вылить эмоции насчет Русско-Украинских вопросов то выливай их здесь, а не тут. Странно вначале ты мне показался толковым человеком.Kuban kazak 21:43, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Andriy, but seriously. This is a huge disruption for everyone. Don't just respond with "It's not my, but your fault..." stuff. Write articles and stop calling others names. I am willing to forego the horrible amount of shit you unloaded at me on and off en-wiki. Others already responded to you an ua-wiki and Maidan that you are being mistaken about others. Your stubborn animosity is not helping your cause. Write an article or two and please avoid responding with another bunch of rude remarks. --Irpen 21:49, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

AndriyK. I would not get too concerned about Kuban kazaks and Irpen's messages above. You are doing an important, time consuming, tedious and ungrateful job of putting facts right and a number of people (myself included) support you for that. The opposing side's lack of argumentation and dubious statements (references to anti-ukrainian sites by Kuban kazak and misrepresentation of the majority of Maidan posters' comments by Irpen) all attest to their inability to play fair. Keep up the good work! Buchik

Thanks for support! Please come here again!--AndriyK 13:54, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes very important and ungrateful, not writting new articles, not adding any original information to articles, but changing transliterations and formats of articles. Something to be very proud of... BTW I don't see how the sites are anti-Ukranian, considering they are directly relevant to current Ukranian politics. Irpen and me, and many others who keep this turd in the bowl from overflowing actually write articles and do not change them without properly discussing first. Kuban kazak 12:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Links to disambiguation page

лес рубят, щепки летят. Your quest against "Chernigov", just like the one against "Kiev" looks weird to me. I have nothing against places like "Mykhailivka" spelt in whatever language you want. But renaming towns with established naming in foreign language requires efforts more than one man. This guy may help you.

The Smolensk case is simple and I know how to deal with it. mikka (t) 16:38, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

User blocked

This user was blocked for violation of the three revert rule on St Volodymyr's Cathedral:

1. 07:21, November 4, 2005
2. 08:09, November 4, 2005
3. 08:14, November 4, 2005
4. 08:21, November 4, 2005
   

Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis) 14:52, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Where are more than three reverts? This was article modification and only 3 (three) reverts.--AndriyK 15:08, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

As per 3RR:

Reverting doesn't only mean taking a previous version from history and editing that. It means undoing the actions of another editor, and may include edits that mostly undo a previous edit and also add something new, page moving, admin actions such as protection, etc. Use common sense.

If you believe my common sense is flawed, you have the right to appeal your block with another admin.—Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis) 15:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

As requested, I've reviewed the situation, and I don't believe that the block was inappropriate - your four edits removed a particular phrase from the article each time, which counts as a violation in my book. Please accept your block graciously. However, I firmly believe that it takes two people to start a revert war, and so Ghirlandajo is also blocked; albeit for a shorter time, since he didn't violate the precise letter of the policy, only the spirit of it. Rob Church 16:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Anyway, thank you for your attention to the issue. Regards, --AndriyK 17:04, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Everything went just like I told you? Do you believe me now, or am I just a "troll" for you again? :) --Nemesis

Misplaced Pages is not

(See also my message here)

These are all valid points but please show at the respective article's talk pages how this rant of yours relates specifically to them.

I could rant in response that WP is not a pamphlet to push fringe Ukrainian nationalist POV into related or unrelated articles, but instead I specifically pointed to you at the articles' talk pages when I found your edits disagreeable. Also, no one responded to your vote fraud (recruiting the absentee voters at outside forums who vote as you told them and left, very similar to Yanuk's tactics) by recruiting voters to inosmi.ru and I claim a partial credit for that because I asked people not to play these games no matter how low you go with yours.

Finally, if you are interested in presenting Ukrainian nationalist views to the world, here is another idea for you. Write a Ukrainian nationalism article and present this ideology there with analysis and references. But writing articles is much harder than correcting Chernigov for Chernihiv in an article I wrote or cutting pieces out of other my or other people's article.

For whatever reasons, there is little support in WP to your destructive behavior and your attempting to ascribe it to the anti-Ukrainian mafia that you imagined shows just how mainstream your views are. --Irpen 04:57, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Plese do not twist the facts. I am not interested in "presenting Ukrainian nationalist views to the world". I do not support any nationalistic POV. This is your own ill fantasies. I came here to write neutral articles about Ukraine. But I am not going to tolerate somebody using Misplaced Pages for anti-Ukrainian propaganda. I find the way to stop it. Please inform your freands on my behalf.--AndriyK 08:53, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

As per your request, I informed a WP community that is interested in Ukraine, most of which consists of my Wikifriends at Portal:Ukraine/Ukraine-related_Wikipedia_notice_board#Announcement_of_behalf_of_user:AndriyK. --Irpen 09:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

So let me get this right, if someone adds a few language transliterations to the article about Lvov Oblast, that is considered "anti-Ukranian", if someone presents some inforamtion about a conflicting church and tells the truth about its cannonical status that is considered "anti-Ukranian". If someone adds information about the Kiev Metro, and uses Russian transliteration that is considered "anti-Ukranian". If someone presents a different POV on the abolishment of Zaparozhian Sech, and offers to intergrate this into the article, that is considered "anti-Ukranian". Mate, my wife is Volynian and my ancestors came from Zaporozhia so what makes YOU think that you are the one who has the power to decide what is anti-Ukranian propaganda or not? Also if you came here to write new articles, well write some articles then...give examples of some of the articles you wrote...or made significant contributions to. Kuban kazak 18:41, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

You tried (or even succeed) to insert biased POV to several articles without balancing it with other POVs. This I call anti-Ukrainian propaganda.

Wrong, first of all even if NPOV is not anti-Ukranian propaganda. Second on numerous occasions I have manadeged to merge both facts of both POVs (check the history) third if you got problems why not have a go and write an article yourself for a change, and finally look whose talking was it you who decided that just for your pleasure to remove uncannonical from UOCKPs reference? Kuban kazak 19:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Concerning liquidation of Sich, let's stick at facts. I've shown you at the talk page that your edits contradict to the facts you presented yourself.

So you agree that I presented facts...hmm why did you remove them?Kuban kazak 19:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Everything what does not based on facts or does not take into accopunt all the facts is propaganda. Your and your wife's origin is not an exuse.--AndriyK 19:00, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Neither is yours so why did you so much claim to have the "true Kievan POV" about the Vladimir's seizure Kuban kazak 19:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

If you would add balancing material to articles as you've counselled the readers at maidan.org to do, you would be a great contributor, even if you put in only half the energy that you do into these constant discussions. You would get a lot less resistance to that. But to stubbornly continue attacking particular words and phrases just attracts attention; it's a big waste of time for many of us. Look at the absolutely wasteful volume of discussion that was generated at Talk: Chernyakhov culture, where you launched an edit war and renamed the article without knowing anything about the subject. —Michael Z. 2005-11-7 19:09 Z

Lviv Oblast

Russian name for Lviv Oblast is not a propaganda, this is just unrelated stuff, which I removed.

The name Lvov Oblast was used almost exclusively in English from 1939 until 1991. By putting the name in the article, we are helping searches find this page and pointing out the current correct name. This is not unrelated, and anyway you're removing it because you are on a crusade to de-russify everything Ukrainian. —Michael Z. 2005-11-7 19:09 Z

Let solve this issue by adopting the convention.--AndriyK 07:47, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Gentlemen, this is a worthy issue. I raised several points at Talk:Lviv_Oblast. Please join the discussion there. --Irpen 19:26, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Challenge

Ok Andrusha I have numerously seen you making statements that you came here to seriously edit and write new articles (yet so far your effort has been -- 0). Well why not prove yourself useful and for a change start earning a reputation of an editor instead of a dumbarse who pointlessly edits articles to suit his personal childish tastes. I made it easy for you, here is a challenge in an area where you are familiar with:

• Drogobych and Izmail Oblasts; Moldavian ASSR
• I have a few old atlases which show that in fact in the 1950's two more oblasts existed in UkSSR. From an excellent collection of topographical maps here is a 1940 atlas, which on Ukraine's map (don't worry its the site that has the permission) clearly shows the Drogobych Oblast and the Moldavian ASSR, as well as the original 1939 border. I have a few late 1940's atlases which show the Izmail oblast as well (basically the part of Odessa oblast that was annexed from Bessarabia in 1940). So how should we present this quite important information?

Well the question is for you to answer, give it a go, and all of us will see how you do it. In the meantime forget about everything else, take your time. Maybe once you've done that, you will make more articles and one day when you look back you will see how silly you really looked.

Понимаешь у меня о тебе сформировалoсь очень отрицательное мнение, но ведь не по-Русски оставлять своего в дерьме. Смотри на это как на протянутую руку. Решать тебе.

In the meantime I ask other editors to take no effort in this.Kuban kazak 00:36, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Go Andriy! I don't know much about the subject, but I will help out however I can. —Michael Z. 2005-11-9 05:43 Z

This below is related and therefore copied from talk:Lviv Oblast with my comment at the bottom.

What I actually want... I want to write neutral and informative articles about Ukraine. But I do not want the people like you would list them then for renaming, or such people as Kuban Kazak would shit there (with your help, of cause) with their Orthodox fundamentalizm....

Good! Everyone else have repeatedly told you that article you will write are very welcome. Time to start. --Irpen 09:19, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

And you told me that they will be listed for renaming.--AndriyK 09:22, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

In any case, I just don't understand how the possibility that they will be renamed (which is not assured, BTW, since it would require consensus at move vote), so how this possibility is an obstacle for you to write them. You are relatively new here and you might not know that there is nothing unusual to have the articles being ended up at the name different from the name originally used by the author. Here is the list of some of my early articles that ended up renamed and I don't feel a least bit bad about it:

• Admiral Makarov I created was moved to Stepan Makarov
• Velikiy Knyaz Konstantin (ship) was moved twice and ended up at Russian tender Velikiy Knyaz Konstantin
• Konstantin of Russia was moved to Konstantin of Rostov
• Irpen' was moved to Irpin
• National University of Kyiv Mohyla Academy was moved to National University of Kyiv-Mohyla Academy
• St. Andrew's Cathedral was moved several times and ended up at St Andrew's Church of Kiev

This is just some of the articles I created (many others were not moved), since with experience I started to pick names that satisfied other users. However, I don't hold any grudge to those who moved my articles and even to the move of Irpen' to Irpin despite my being described by you an alleged leader of an alleged anti-Ukrainian mafia. So, by all means proceed with your principality articles or with Kuban Kazak's offer or with red links and stubs at Portal:Ukraine/Things_you_can_do or with whatever else you have in mind. --Irpen 02:22, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I propose very simple solution: You, guys, stop shitting and I start writing.

Are you ready to stop shitting.--AndriyK 08:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Start writing then, чего за яйца кота тянуть?Kuban kazak 12:00, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Stop shitting then. Зачем, действительно, животное мучить?--AndriyK 12:02, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Мальчик мой The wikipedia is looking on you and waiting, I have stopped "shitting" your turn. Kuban kazak 12:21, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Хорошо бы если бы ты еще убрал дерьмо за собой.--AndriyK 12:32, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Эх чувство юмора нету, оригинальности нету, проффесианолизма также нету, на любое желание серьезно заняться делом - лень. Ну неужели все вы такие нудные и скушные, ведь были вы лет 15 назад нормальными людьми...что же вас так деградировало? (Причем подумай сколько людей ты позоришь) Только потом не спрашивай почему мы Кубанцы (потомки Запорожцев) считаем себя Русскими. Жалко мне тебя если честно говоря, много ума но отсутствие разума и ослиная упрямость. Дрогобыч и Измаил тебя ждут, к ним никто ни притронеться пока... Kuban kazak 16:01, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Мне особенно твоя "проффесианолизма" понравилась. Ты в президенты случайно не собираешся?--AndriyK 16:43, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Kuban kazak, please do not overgeneralized about "вы такие нудные и скушные, ведь были вы лет 15 назад нормальными людьми". AndriyK's position and Russophobia is on the fringe and far from the mainstream. It is not representative either of Ukrainians in general or for the Ukrainians at Misplaced Pages in particular.

AndriyK, you can prove us wrong regarding these comments by taking up on any of the proposals offered to you. --Irpen 17:24, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Where did you find "Russophobia" in my edits? Any examples?

Suppose I wrote in some article "(Great) Novhorod" and somebody corrected it as "Novgorod". Whould it be "ukrainophobia" in your view?--AndriyK 17:30, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I do not take your proposals concerning specific articles. I'll decide myself what is interesting to write.

A I said, I would love to start writing, provided that you, guys, stop shitting and clean up ypur shit .--AndriyK 17:32, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Hallo

Greetings. Don't be discouraged by attacks on your person. I do believe we need people with knowledge of Ukrainian history so as to not let others influence the articles about it in negative way, that for others couldn't be spotted. --Molobo 17:37, 9 November 2005 (UTC)