Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 04:46, 10 April 2009

Armenia NA‑class

Moses of Chorene is within the scope of WikiProject Armenia, an attempt to improve and better organize information in articles related or pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the redirect attached to this page or visit the project page for further information.ArmeniaWikipedia:WikiProject ArmeniaTemplate:WikiProject ArmeniaArmenian NA This redirect does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Perhaps this article is more aptly named Moses of Chorene's History of Armenia? The article has paragraph or two about the author and the rest of it is about the book he wrote and its impact.

Or Perhaps we should create an article about the book, copy the text here about the book into that new article and reference it here?

Dating

I changed this a bit because the new version could not necessarily be inferred from Thomson's statement. I'm no great expert here and I need to get my hands on more books, but as far as I see it we need to determine whether:

• Moses was an historical person (probably of the 5th century) but the history written in his name was "fathered" on him by later author(s) unknown (I've seen the date for the history given variously as the 8th or 9th centuries but I can't give references)
• Moses didn't exist at all and his biography was also part of the fabrication of the history's authorship
• or there was a Moses of Chorene, who was the author of the history, but he lived after the 7th century

I don't have the sources to sort this out at the moment. If anybody can get hold of them, it would be a help. I'd just like to say though that I'm glad to see someone is taking a more scholarly approach to this and other Armenian historical articles. Cheers. --Folantin 09:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying, but I believe this is a bit similar to the Homeric question. Except that he has a whole bunch of works attributed to him, and for each the question will be, is it authentic. I believe that "Moses of Chorene" is the author of the History more or less by definition, and if that work dates to the 7th century, we will be right to say that Moses lived in the 7th century (even if Moses is a pen-name). But I agree we need more sources on this. dab (𒁳) 09:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I've read a bit about the academic controversy over his dating/existence but I can't remember the exact details. When I added the Thomson quotation, the article here was a straight copy-and-paste of the Catholic Encyclopaedia entry (from c.1913). They were beginning to become aware of the doubts over the traditional attribution back then, but obviously a lot has happened since in the debate. I slashed quite a bit of the entry, but I didn't know how far to go. Obviously, better sourcing will fix this. I hope to get my hands on the French translation (1993) some time this year, so that might help resolve matters. Those who don't believe he was from the 5th century give various dates so I'm not sure we can just say 7th century. In fact, I think the 9th century is a pretty popular guess (though I can't provide references). We'll probably have to describe the scholarly debate rather than coming down for one date or another. I think we should just leave its as something like "considerably later than the 5th century" for now. --Folantin 09:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

One more name change

I really don't know what Misplaced Pages's (English-language) policy is on this but I'm considering to move this article once more to Movses Khorenatsi to reflect the correct transliteration of the historian's name. We have several other articles that are like this (Kirakos Gandzaketsi, Stepanos Taronetsi, Movses Kaghankatvatsi, etc.) so unless anyone has some concerns, we can move it to Movses Khorenatsi.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 01:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm fine with both transliterations (ex. Gregory of Narek, Anania Shirakatsi). If we're going to make either universal, wouldn't we also have to move articles on monarchs like Tiridates I of Armenia to Trdat I? Hakob (talk) 08:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so. The "of Armenia" part is mainly to differentiate them from the Parthian kings of the same names. I don't think we have to really extend this to those other articles either, only those which have suffix "tsi", identifying from where they were from. I guess the closest thing we can compare this to is the Leonardo da Vinci article, since his name just means "Leonardo from/of Vinci."--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Assyrian

« so that they themselves learn the Greek and Assyrian languages » : « Assyrian language » redirects to « Akkadian language », dead since 100 AD. Don't you think that this « Assyrian » is in fact « Syriac », useful for understanding the Gospels (Tatian…) ?

--Budelberger (talk) 18:08, 10 November 2008 (UTC) (). (And please, correct the « of of » !)

That's indeed true. Should you ever come upon something that can be quite easily be fixed, as in this case, be bold and by all means, make the necessary changes.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 02:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

No, I can't :

• « of of » : I can't modify a 9 046 Bytes page for those small three Bytes ! (My computer is very old and small ; I don't want the Wikimedia computers overflowed too !)
• « Assyrian » : I can't, because this information is sourced (from Gagik Sarkisyan, n. 6) ; what wrote Sarkisyan and, if « Assyrian », what is « Assyrian » for him, I don't know. Who has this book ? You, who know Armenian ?

Budelberger (talk) 10:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC) (). (P.-S. : Do you know Armenian ? Can you help me in hy.Misplaced Pages ? I need a « Merge » template (they haven't) ; can you create it ?)

Perhaps you should purchase a Dell? :)

The reason the source says Assyrian is actually due to the fact that Syriac in Armenian is translated as "Asoreren" (Ասորերեն). I didn't know that it would be go to a different redirect and I'll fix the disambig.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:37, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Western scholars

I don't understand why did MarshallBagramyan remove the sources that I quoted? Most notable experts in this field doubt that Movses actually lived in the 5th century. Their opinion must be presented too.--Grandmaster 04:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

RGS's article is next to useless and tells us nothing we don't already know. Furthermore, scholars outside of Armenia reject the hypercritical approach of Toumanoff and Thomson also (Vrej Nersissian, a very authoritative individual and the Curator of the Christian Middle East Section at the British Library, has published multiple reviews over the past 30 years on this topic). We have an updated source, with five editors, telling us that their approach and opinions are pretty much invalidated. That you think it is appropriate to insert the word "some" is disingenous and is clear weasal wording.

Besides, it's rather strange that scholars who can't even speak (modern) or barely read classical Armenian (such as Hewsen) are really being given this undue weight just because they publish outside of Armenia.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 04:58, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Robert H. Hewsen, Cyril Toumanoff and Robert Thompson are among the leading western experts on Armenia. Their opinion is notable, and cannot be suppressed or rejected, like it is done in this article. It is not an undue weight, their opinion must be presented alongside with that of the scholars in Armenia. --Grandmaster 05:04, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Here are some sources. Hewsen:

This Primary History has come to us in two redactions, a long and a short. The shorter version is attributed to the earliest known Armenian historian, Agathangelos (fourth century A.D.?) and is presented in the opening section of a seventh-century work ascribed – probably wrongly – to a certain bishop named Sebeos. The longer version, much expanded and edited, is contained in Book One of the compilation of Armenian antiquities known as the History of Armenia by Pseudo-Moses of Khoren. While the date of this work has been much disputed, it appears now to be a product of the late eighth or early ninth century.

2. For the short redaction, translated into French under the title "Le Pseudo-Agathange: histoire ancienne de l'Armenie," see V. Langlois, Collection des historiens anciens et modemes de lilrmtnie (2 vols.: 1869-80), 1: 195-200; for the long version, published under the title "Mar Apas Catina: histoire ancienne de l'Armenie," see ibid., pp. 18-53, and also the first book of "Moise de Chorene," ibid., 2:53-78.
3. G. Abgarian, "Remarques sur l'histoire de Sebeos," Revue des etudes armeniennes, 1 (1964), pp. 203-15, where it is demonstrated that the real author of this work was probably the monk Khosrovik.
4. C. Toumanoff, "On the Date of Pseudo-Moses of Chorene," Handes Amsorya (Dec. 1961), pp. 468-76.

Hewsen, Robert H. The Primary History of Armenia: An Examination of the Validity of an Immemorially Transmitted Historical Tradition. History in Africa, Vol. 2., 1975, pp. 91-100.

Thompson:

The History of Armenia by Movses Khorenatsi (Moses of Khoren) is the most comprehensive work in early Armenian historiography, but also the most controversial. Movses claims to have been a pupil of Mashtots's, and he ends his work with a long lament on the evil days that befell Armenia following the deaths of Mashtots and of the patriarch Sahak and the abolition of the Arsacid monarchy (which had occurred earlier, in 428). On the other hand, there are indications in the book itself that it was written after the fifth century. Not only does Movses use sources not available in Armenian at that time, he refers to persons and places attested only in the sixth or seventh centuries. Furthermore, he alters many of his Armenian sources in a tendentious manner in order to extol his patrons, the Bagratuni family, who gained preeminence in the eighth century. But despite the fact that Movses Khorenatsi is not known or quoted by sources before the tenth century, he became revered in tradition as the "father of history, patmahayr," and elaborate legends about his life, his other writings, and his association with Mashtots's other pupils gained credence after the year 1000.

Richard G. Hovannisian. The Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times: The Dynastic Periods: From Antiquity to the Fourteenth Century. St. Martin's Press, 1997

ISBN 0312101686, 9780312101688. Chapter 9. Robert Thomson. Armenian Literary Culture through the 11th Century.

Britannica:

Moses of Khoren – author known as the father of Armenian literature. Traditionally believed to have lived in the 5th century, Moses has also been dated as late as the 9th century. Nothing is known of his life apart from alleged autobiographical details contained in the History of Armenia, which bears his name as author. His claims to have been the disciple of Isaac the Great (Sahak) and Mesrop Mashtots, to have studied in Edessa and Alexandria after the Council of Edessa (431), and to have been commissioned to write his History by the governor Sahak Bagratuni, have been rejected by most serious scholars, in large part because of anachronisms in his text. His work, however, is a valuable record of earlier religious tradition in pre-Christian Armenia.

Grandmaster 05:10, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, looking at your edit, how is this not weasel wording, and how this wording that you included can be considered neutral:

Up until the mid-twentieth century, many scholars doubted that Movses wrote the work in the fifth century due to historical inconsistencies, addressed him as "Pseudo-Movses", and moved him and the History to the seventh to ninth centuries. Stepan Malkhasyants, an Armenian philologist and expert of classical Armenian literature, likened this period to a "competition, " whereby one scholar attempted to outperform the other in their criticism of Movses. Although these views have now been discredited and "much of this criticism has been rejected," there are still those who believe that Movses is not the true author of the work.

You say that "Up until the mid-twentieth century, many scholars doubted that Movses wrote the work in the fifth century", however you can see that many modern publications, including even Britannica doubt that Movses actually wrote his work in the 5th century. And the last line which attempts to present the opinion of one person as a fact is not in line with NPOV, and again uses weasel wording (there are still those who believe that Movses is not the true author of the work). Grandmaster 05:21, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, this work by Ronald Grigor Suny that you removed from the article provides interesting information about the dispute over Khorenatsi:

Ronald Grigor Suny. Constructing Primordialism: Old Histories for New Nations. The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 73, No. 4 (Dec., 2001), pp. 862—896

I don't think that you should be simply removing the opinions that you disagree with. All notable opinions must be presented.--Grandmaster 05:25, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

My understanding is that mainstream scholarly opinion believes that the history ascribed to Movses dates from (much) later than the 5th century. Another reference: " There are indications that the book itself was written after the 5th century. Not only does Movses use sources not available in Armenia at that time, he refers to persons and places attested only in the sixth or seventh centuries." Robert K. Thomson, "Armenian Literary Culture through the Eleventh Century", in R.G. Hovahanissian (ed.), Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times(Volume 1, 2004). --Folantin (talk) 08:07, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Well we have a very reliable source published in 2000 with five editors which says that the mainstream opinion is that we was from the 5th century so...--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

So is my understanding. I provided the full context of the source that you cite. Please see above. I believe all the existing scholarly opinions should be presented equally, as per WP:NPOV. Grandmaster 11:58, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

There are two possibilities: There was a Movses Khorenatsi in the 5th century, and the History is pseudepigraphical and attributed to Movses a century or two after his death, or Movses is in fact the author of the History, but he did live one or two centuries later than the traditional date. As far as I can see, the two possibilities are effectively equivalent for all practical purposes. --dab (𒁳) 14:55, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

And both possibilities are present in the article. Nevertheless, unless you guys actually know what the critcism that Thomson et al. are presenting, don't just simply regurgitate sources. The exact opposite can be done and we can go on forever. Unless you are aware of the nitty-gritty of the actual debate and have read the reviews and the books, slavishly quoting them is not going to cut it. And Dbachmann, if it's not too much to ask, go read Malkhasyants' biography before you question his reliability. I know you like to scan and root out nationalism but please, there are limits to everything.

I added Cyril Toumanoff as a source because he presents his arguments against the 5th century dating far more better than Hewsen does.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The credibility tag was added blindly and without any reason. "...criticize it heavily as a historical source" was also added from who knows where when all the relevant material is regarding inaccuracies in the timeframe but not the source material itself. The ten or so Artaxias' frontier stones with Aramaic based inscriptions found around Lake Sevan were only mentioned by Khorenatsi and no other source, this alone attests to the remarkable value of this source. It's obvious that new material was added in later centuries because various personas and events from those centuries are mentioned but it doesn't reflect on the accuracy of the content nor deny the possibility of multiple authorship in the course of several centuries. Dbachmann, you really oughta recuse yourself from all Armenian related articles, even if it's just reverting ararat_arev socks. This is not the first time when you have made all-encompassing changes seemingly resulting from bad faith.-- Ευπάτωρ 18:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Another source:

Moses Khorenats'i occupies a special place in Armenian national tradition, as the first author to attempt a connected account of the country's history from Urartian times up to his own purported life-time-namely the fifth century A.D. Since Moses was in fact a writer of the eighth century or thereabouts, he could easily have continued his narrative for another three hundred years, but this would have exposed his own literary deception, making nonsense of his claim to be a disciple of St Mesrop Mashtots, the inventor of the Armenian alphabet.

The reassignment of Moses Khorenats'i from the fifth to the eighth century was mooted as early as the 1890's by A. Carriere; Professor C. Toumanoff summarizes the evidence in the journal Handes Amsorya, Vol. 75, 1961, cols. 467-76. Few if any scholars outside Soviet Armenia continue to defend the old fifth century dating, though in Erevan the venerable chronicler's discredited account of himself is still upheld with patriotic zeal.

David M. Lang. Reviewed work(s): "Moses Khorenats'i": History of the Armenians by Robert W. Thomson. Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 42, No. 3 (1979), pp. 574-575

Grandmaster 20:06, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

ok, enough with this nonsense. The entire "biography" is unverifiable to anyone without access to Soviet-era Armenian literature. When I see a reference to details of Movses' biography, I do not want to see an obscure reference like "Sargsyan, Gagik. «Մովսես Խորենացի» (Movses Khorenatsi). Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia, 1982, pp. 40-41". I want to be informed which medieval source this information is due to, or at the very least I want some academic English language reference. Movses is easily important enough to find coverage outside 1980s Soviet encyclopedias. --dab (𒁳) 14:11, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the hyping of stale Soviet Armenian criticism into a living "controversy". If there is any Armenian author criticizing the mainstream date today, let's see a post-1991 reference. Anything dating to between 1960 and 1991 should be subsumed in a brief "and there was much grumbling in Soviet Armenia". Thanks to to MarshallBagramyan for giving us a brief taste of what was the talk of Erevan historians back in the 1980s, but this is 2009. --dab (𒁳) 14:35, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Who gives a damn if it's unaccessible to you? It's accessible to plenty of people and it's a verifiable published source. That's all that is needed. If you can provide published criticism of any of the references than we can talk otherwise cease disrupting this article with your saber-rattling and unencylopedic edits.-- Ευπάτωρ 16:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Please heed Eupator's advice and recuse yourself from this and other Armenian related articles Dbachmann. I, as well as Eupator, are as much as opponents against the distortion of facts, even if its done by Armenian historians, as you but the overzealous and extremist nature of your edits to disregard the opinions of then Soviet scholars has surpassed bad faith. I don't believe you have a full grasp of what the debate is on and insulting reputable scholars who have published in international journals by throwing around the word "Soviet" as if it's a curse word is unacceptable. It was originally scholars like Sargsyan, Malkhasyants, and Abeghyan who blazed the trail in the study of Armenian literature, with objectivity in mind and access to the manuscripts of the Matenadaran, and western scholars have undoubtedly benefited from their work as a mere glance at the bibliographies will prove.

The opinions of western scholars should be present but quoting them like parrots without offering any explanations and then going on to conduct unilateral, shamelessly POV mass scale edits and slanting the article clearly in the bias of the western scholars' opinions violates the basic tenets of Misplaced Pages policy. As much as I like DML, he is not an authority on the subject, did not know classical Armenian nor did he conduct any studies in the matter. Intentionally ignoring authoritative sources like Sargsyan and Malkhasyants just because they worked in the Soviet Union and lived in Armenia is not reason enough to reserve preferential treatment for others.

It's unfortunate that you are unable to speak Armenian nor Russian but this article was not created for you; for those people who want to learn more about Movses, they're going to have to consult sources in foreign languages. I will try to find updated references to Movses in additional journals but you have clearly erred in your reckless witch hunt to snuff out nationalism --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 16:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

See WP:VUE on "Non-English sources":

Because this is the English Misplaced Pages, editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source has been used correctly. Where editors translate a direct quote, they should quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Misplaced Pages editors.

--Folantin (talk) 16:15, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, but that's just a recommended guideline. Far from an enforced piece of rule. I'm more than open to reducing the number of non-English citations and replacing them with something from Google books or elsewhere in English. You can highlight sentences and passages that are referenced by non-English sources and that you would like to see replaced here and we can work from there. In any event, Dbachmann's boldness is unacceptable.-- Ευπάτωρ 16:42, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree that Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia is a very mysterious source that is used in many articles here, but which no one outside of Armenia can verify, as it is written in Armenian. Considering that Great Soviet Encyclopedia is not considered a reliable source on most topics, I don't think any other Soviet encyclopedia should be considered a reliable source. Grandmaster 20:15, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

That logic makes absolutely no sense. The SAE is not some inaccessible source with obscure publishing origins. Even Robert Hewsen boasts about his collection in his Armenia: A Historical Atlas. I wish I could access some of the sources regarding the Serbian related articles but I don't read Serbian nor have access to their scholarly literature. But that's not enough for me to call for their removal (something about good faith?). We're not trying to seriously prove that Stalin did not enact the Great Terror here. But as of yet, Dbachmann's insulting language (bordering on racism) against Soviet Armenian historians, to say nothing of his unilateral, ill-faith, shamelessly POV edits, have not gotten us anywhere. Additional reverts should be discouraged.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 03:36, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The entire "biography" is unverifiable to anyone without access to Soviet-era Armenian literature. That's of course not true. When I wrote the article in French, I used for the biographic part:

• Claude Mutafian (dir.), Arménie, la magie de l'écrit, Somogy, Paris, 2007, ISBN 978-2-7572-0057-5
• Moïse de Khorène (trad. Annie et Jean-Pierre Mahé), Histoire de l'Arménie, coll. « L'aube des peuples », Gallimard, Paris, 1993, ISBN 2-07-072904-4
• Agop Jack Hacikyan (dir.), The Heritage of Armenian Literature, vol. II : From the Sixth to the Eighteenth Century, Wayne State University, Détroit, 2002, ISBN 0-8143-3023-1

Sardur (talk) 21:30, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

• I don't think that Soviet sources should be rejected altogether, but they should be used with care, especially sources like Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia. We all know that such publications were written as part of the Soviet propaganda campaign. I think that Western sources generally are more preferable. As for rvs, I would like to remind Marshal that he is under 1 rv per week restriction, which he violated more than once within the last couple of days. Next time I will have to report the violation to WP:AE, so please do not rv this article during the next 7 days. Grandmaster 04:46, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

merge

in light of the statement in Britannica that "Nothing is known of his life apart from alleged autobiographical details contained in this work", this article should just become an "author" section in the History of Armenia (Movses Khorenatsi) article. --dab (𒁳) 14:18, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I think this author deserves a dedicated article, as he is considered an author of more than one work (as far as I know some other works are also attributed to him, though I might be wrong), and is considered the father of the Armenian historiography. Plus, the controversy surrounding his persona also deserves a presentation in a separate article, which should be the one about himself. Grandmaster 15:53, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

• NA-Class Armenian pages
• NA-importance Armenian pages
• WikiProject Armenia articles