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Perhaps this article is more aptly named Moses of Chorene's History of Armenia? The article has paragraph or two about the author and the rest of it is about the book he wrote and its impact.

Or Perhaps we should create an article about the book, copy the text here about the book into that new article and reference it here?

Dating

I changed this a bit because the new version could not necessarily be inferred from Thomson's statement. I'm no great expert here and I need to get my hands on more books, but as far as I see it we need to determine whether:

• Moses was an historical person (probably of the 5th century) but the history written in his name was "fathered" on him by later author(s) unknown (I've seen the date for the history given variously as the 8th or 9th centuries but I can't give references)
• Moses didn't exist at all and his biography was also part of the fabrication of the history's authorship
• or there was a Moses of Chorene, who was the author of the history, but he lived after the 7th century

I don't have the sources to sort this out at the moment. If anybody can get hold of them, it would be a help. I'd just like to say though that I'm glad to see someone is taking a more scholarly approach to this and other Armenian historical articles. Cheers. --Folantin 09:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying, but I believe this is a bit similar to the Homeric question. Except that he has a whole bunch of works attributed to him, and for each the question will be, is it authentic. I believe that "Moses of Chorene" is the author of the History more or less by definition, and if that work dates to the 7th century, we will be right to say that Moses lived in the 7th century (even if Moses is a pen-name). But I agree we need more sources on this. dab (𒁳) 09:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I've read a bit about the academic controversy over his dating/existence but I can't remember the exact details. When I added the Thomson quotation, the article here was a straight copy-and-paste of the Catholic Encyclopaedia entry (from c.1913). They were beginning to become aware of the doubts over the traditional attribution back then, but obviously a lot has happened since in the debate. I slashed quite a bit of the entry, but I didn't know how far to go. Obviously, better sourcing will fix this. I hope to get my hands on the French translation (1993) some time this year, so that might help resolve matters. Those who don't believe he was from the 5th century give various dates so I'm not sure we can just say 7th century. In fact, I think the 9th century is a pretty popular guess (though I can't provide references). We'll probably have to describe the scholarly debate rather than coming down for one date or another. I think we should just leave its as something like "considerably later than the 5th century" for now. --Folantin 09:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

One more name change

I really don't know what Misplaced Pages's (English-language) policy is on this but I'm considering to move this article once more to Movses Khorenatsi to reflect the correct transliteration of the historian's name. We have several other articles that are like this (Kirakos Gandzaketsi, Stepanos Taronetsi, Movses Kaghankatvatsi, etc.) so unless anyone has some concerns, we can move it to Movses Khorenatsi.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 01:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm fine with both transliterations (ex. Gregory of Narek, Anania Shirakatsi). If we're going to make either universal, wouldn't we also have to move articles on monarchs like Tiridates I of Armenia to Trdat I? Hakob (talk) 08:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so. The "of Armenia" part is mainly to differentiate them from the Parthian kings of the same names. I don't think we have to really extend this to those other articles either, only those which have suffix "tsi", identifying from where they were from. I guess the closest thing we can compare this to is the Leonardo da Vinci article, since his name just means "Leonardo from/of Vinci."--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The "correct" (unambiguous) transliteration would be Movsēs Xorenac‘i. But we have the policy of using the name most common in English language usage, which is clearly Moses of Chorene. Article should be moved back.

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL 774/245

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL 801/58

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL 287/75

try to avoid moving articles around without consensus and without being aware of Misplaced Pages naming conventions. --dab (𒁳) 15:09, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Assyrian

« so that they themselves learn the Greek and Assyrian languages » : « Assyrian language » redirects to « Akkadian language », dead since 100 AD. Don't you think that this « Assyrian » is in fact « Syriac », useful for understanding the Gospels (Tatian…) ?

--Budelberger (talk) 18:08, 10 November 2008 (UTC) (). (And please, correct the « of of » !)

That's indeed true. Should you ever come upon something that can be quite easily be fixed, as in this case, be bold and by all means, make the necessary changes.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 02:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

No, I can't :

• « of of » : I can't modify a 9 046 Bytes page for those small three Bytes ! (My computer is very old and small ; I don't want the Wikimedia computers overflowed too !)
• « Assyrian » : I can't, because this information is sourced (from Gagik Sarkisyan, n. 6) ; what wrote Sarkisyan and, if « Assyrian », what is « Assyrian » for him, I don't know. Who has this book ? You, who know Armenian ?

Budelberger (talk) 10:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC) (). (P.-S. : Do you know Armenian ? Can you help me in hy.Misplaced Pages ? I need a « Merge » template (they haven't) ; can you create it ?)

Perhaps you should purchase a Dell? :)

The reason the source says Assyrian is actually due to the fact that Syriac in Armenian is translated as "Asoreren" (Ասորերեն). I didn't know that it would be go to a different redirect and I'll fix the disambig.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:37, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Western scholars

I don't understand why did MarshallBagramyan remove the sources that I quoted? Most notable experts in this field doubt that Movses actually lived in the 5th century. Their opinion must be presented too.--Grandmaster 04:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

RGS's article is next to useless and tells us nothing we don't already know. Furthermore, scholars outside of Armenia reject the hypercritical approach of Toumanoff and Thomson also (Vrej Nersissian, a very authoritative individual and the Curator of the Christian Middle East Section at the British Library, has published multiple reviews over the past 30 years on this topic). We have an updated source, with five editors, telling us that their approach and opinions are pretty much invalidated. That you think it is appropriate to insert the word "some" is disingenous and is clear weasal wording.

Besides, it's rather strange that scholars who can't even speak (modern) or barely read classical Armenian (such as Hewsen) are really being given this undue weight just because they publish outside of Armenia.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 04:58, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Robert H. Hewsen, Cyril Toumanoff and Robert Thompson are among the leading western experts on Armenia. Their opinion is notable, and cannot be suppressed or rejected, like it is done in this article. It is not an undue weight, their opinion must be presented alongside with that of the scholars in Armenia. --Grandmaster 05:04, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Here are some sources. Hewsen:

This Primary History has come to us in two redactions, a long and a short. The shorter version is attributed to the earliest known Armenian historian, Agathangelos (fourth century A.D.?) and is presented in the opening section of a seventh-century work ascribed – probably wrongly – to a certain bishop named Sebeos. The longer version, much expanded and edited, is contained in Book One of the compilation of Armenian antiquities known as the History of Armenia by Pseudo-Moses of Khoren. While the date of this work has been much disputed, it appears now to be a product of the late eighth or early ninth century.

2. For the short redaction, translated into French under the title "Le Pseudo-Agathange: histoire ancienne de l'Armenie," see V. Langlois, Collection des historiens anciens et modemes de lilrmtnie (2 vols.: 1869-80), 1: 195-200; for the long version, published under the title "Mar Apas Catina: histoire ancienne de l'Armenie," see ibid., pp. 18-53, and also the first book of "Moise de Chorene," ibid., 2:53-78.
3. G. Abgarian, "Remarques sur l'histoire de Sebeos," Revue des etudes armeniennes, 1 (1964), pp. 203-15, where it is demonstrated that the real author of this work was probably the monk Khosrovik.
4. C. Toumanoff, "On the Date of Pseudo-Moses of Chorene," Handes Amsorya (Dec. 1961), pp. 468-76.

Hewsen, Robert H. The Primary History of Armenia: An Examination of the Validity of an Immemorially Transmitted Historical Tradition. History in Africa, Vol. 2., 1975, pp. 91-100.

Thompson:

The History of Armenia by Movses Khorenatsi (Moses of Khoren) is the most comprehensive work in early Armenian historiography, but also the most controversial. Movses claims to have been a pupil of Mashtots's, and he ends his work with a long lament on the evil days that befell Armenia following the deaths of Mashtots and of the patriarch Sahak and the abolition of the Arsacid monarchy (which had occurred earlier, in 428). On the other hand, there are indications in the book itself that it was written after the fifth century. Not only does Movses use sources not available in Armenian at that time, he refers to persons and places attested only in the sixth or seventh centuries. Furthermore, he alters many of his Armenian sources in a tendentious manner in order to extol his patrons, the Bagratuni family, who gained preeminence in the eighth century. But despite the fact that Movses Khorenatsi is not known or quoted by sources before the tenth century, he became revered in tradition as the "father of history, patmahayr," and elaborate legends about his life, his other writings, and his association with Mashtots's other pupils gained credence after the year 1000.

Richard G. Hovannisian. The Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times: The Dynastic Periods: From Antiquity to the Fourteenth Century. St. Martin's Press, 1997

ISBN 0312101686, 9780312101688. Chapter 9. Robert Thomson. Armenian Literary Culture through the 11th Century.

Britannica:

Moses of Khoren – author known as the father of Armenian literature. Traditionally believed to have lived in the 5th century, Moses has also been dated as late as the 9th century. Nothing is known of his life apart from alleged autobiographical details contained in the History of Armenia, which bears his name as author. His claims to have been the disciple of Isaac the Great (Sahak) and Mesrop Mashtots, to have studied in Edessa and Alexandria after the Council of Edessa (431), and to have been commissioned to write his History by the governor Sahak Bagratuni, have been rejected by most serious scholars, in large part because of anachronisms in his text. His work, however, is a valuable record of earlier religious tradition in pre-Christian Armenia.

Grandmaster 05:10, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, looking at your edit, how is this not weasel wording, and how this wording that you included can be considered neutral:

Up until the mid-twentieth century, many scholars doubted that Movses wrote the work in the fifth century due to historical inconsistencies, addressed him as "Pseudo-Movses", and moved him and the History to the seventh to ninth centuries. Stepan Malkhasyants, an Armenian philologist and expert of classical Armenian literature, likened this period to a "competition, " whereby one scholar attempted to outperform the other in their criticism of Movses. Although these views have now been discredited and "much of this criticism has been rejected," there are still those who believe that Movses is not the true author of the work.

You say that "Up until the mid-twentieth century, many scholars doubted that Movses wrote the work in the fifth century", however you can see that many modern publications, including even Britannica doubt that Movses actually wrote his work in the 5th century. And the last line which attempts to present the opinion of one person as a fact is not in line with NPOV, and again uses weasel wording (there are still those who believe that Movses is not the true author of the work). Grandmaster 05:21, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, this work by Ronald Grigor Suny that you removed from the article provides interesting information about the dispute over Khorenatsi:

Ronald Grigor Suny. Constructing Primordialism: Old Histories for New Nations. The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 73, No. 4 (Dec., 2001), pp. 862—896

I don't think that you should be simply removing the opinions that you disagree with. All notable opinions must be presented.--Grandmaster 05:25, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

My understanding is that mainstream scholarly opinion believes that the history ascribed to Movses dates from (much) later than the 5th century. Another reference: " There are indications that the book itself was written after the 5th century. Not only does Movses use sources not available in Armenia at that time, he refers to persons and places attested only in the sixth or seventh centuries." Robert K. Thomson, "Armenian Literary Culture through the Eleventh Century", in R.G. Hovahanissian (ed.), Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times(Volume 1, 2004). --Folantin (talk) 08:07, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Well we have a very reliable source published in 2000 with five editors which says that the mainstream opinion is that we was from the 5th century so...--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

So is my understanding. I provided the full context of the source that you cite. Please see above. I believe all the existing scholarly opinions should be presented equally, as per WP:NPOV. Grandmaster 11:58, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

There are two possibilities: There was a Movses Khorenatsi in the 5th century, and the History is pseudepigraphical and attributed to Movses a century or two after his death, or Movses is in fact the author of the History, but he did live one or two centuries later than the traditional date. As far as I can see, the two possibilities are effectively equivalent for all practical purposes. --dab (𒁳) 14:55, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

And both possibilities are present in the article. Nevertheless, unless you guys actually know what the critcism that Thomson et al. are presenting, don't just simply regurgitate sources. The exact opposite can be done and we can go on forever. Unless you are aware of the nitty-gritty of the actual debate and have read the reviews and the books, slavishly quoting them is not going to cut it. And Dbachmann, if it's not too much to ask, go read Malkhasyants' biography before you question his reliability. I know you like to scan and root out nationalism but please, there are limits to everything.

I added Cyril Toumanoff as a source because he presents his arguments against the 5th century dating far more better than Hewsen does.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The credibility tag was added blindly and without any reason. "...criticize it heavily as a historical source" was also added from who knows where when all the relevant material is regarding inaccuracies in the timeframe but not the source material itself. The ten or so Artaxias' frontier stones with Aramaic based inscriptions found around Lake Sevan were only mentioned by Khorenatsi and no other source, this alone attests to the remarkable value of this source. It's obvious that new material was added in later centuries because various personas and events from those centuries are mentioned but it doesn't reflect on the accuracy of the content nor deny the possibility of multiple authorship in the course of several centuries. Dbachmann, you really oughta recuse yourself from all Armenian related articles, even if it's just reverting ararat_arev socks. This is not the first time when you have made all-encompassing changes seemingly resulting from bad faith.-- Ευπάτωρ 18:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Another source:

Moses Khorenats'i occupies a special place in Armenian national tradition, as the first author to attempt a connected account of the country's history from Urartian times up to his own purported life-time-namely the fifth century A.D. Since Moses was in fact a writer of the eighth century or thereabouts, he could easily have continued his narrative for another three hundred years, but this would have exposed his own literary deception, making nonsense of his claim to be a disciple of St Mesrop Mashtots, the inventor of the Armenian alphabet.

The reassignment of Moses Khorenats'i from the fifth to the eighth century was mooted as early as the 1890's by A. Carriere; Professor C. Toumanoff summarizes the evidence in the journal Handes Amsorya, Vol. 75, 1961, cols. 467-76. Few if any scholars outside Soviet Armenia continue to defend the old fifth century dating, though in Erevan the venerable chronicler's discredited account of himself is still upheld with patriotic zeal.

David M. Lang. Reviewed work(s): "Moses Khorenats'i": History of the Armenians by Robert W. Thomson. Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 42, No. 3 (1979), pp. 574-575

Grandmaster 20:06, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

ok, enough with this nonsense. The entire "biography" is unverifiable to anyone without access to Soviet-era Armenian literature. When I see a reference to details of Movses' biography, I do not want to see an obscure reference like "Sargsyan, Gagik. «Մովսես Խորենացի» (Movses Khorenatsi). Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia, 1982, pp. 40-41". I want to be informed which medieval source this information is due to, or at the very least I want some academic English language reference. Movses is easily important enough to find coverage outside 1980s Soviet encyclopedias. --dab (𒁳) 14:11, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the hyping of stale Soviet Armenian criticism into a living "controversy". If there is any Armenian author criticizing the mainstream date today, let's see a post-1991 reference. Anything dating to between 1960 and 1991 should be subsumed in a brief "and there was much grumbling in Soviet Armenia". Thanks to to MarshallBagramyan for giving us a brief taste of what was the talk of Erevan historians back in the 1980s, but this is 2009. --dab (𒁳) 14:35, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Who gives a damn if it's unaccessible to you? It's accessible to plenty of people and it's a verifiable published source. That's all that is needed. If you can provide published criticism of any of the references than we can talk otherwise cease disrupting this article with your saber-rattling and unencylopedic edits.-- Ευπάτωρ 16:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Please heed Eupator's advice and recuse yourself from this and other Armenian related articles Dbachmann. I, as well as Eupator, are as much as opponents against the distortion of facts, even if its done by Armenian historians, as you but the overzealous and extremist nature of your edits to disregard the opinions of then Soviet scholars has surpassed bad faith. I don't believe you have a full grasp of what the debate is on and insulting reputable scholars who have published in international journals by throwing around the word "Soviet" as if it's a curse word is unacceptable. It was originally scholars like Sargsyan, Malkhasyants, and Abeghyan who blazed the trail in the study of Armenian literature, with objectivity in mind and access to the manuscripts of the Matenadaran, and western scholars have undoubtedly benefited from their work as a mere glance at the bibliographies will prove.

The opinions of western scholars should be present but quoting them like parrots without offering any explanations and then going on to conduct unilateral, shamelessly POV mass scale edits and slanting the article clearly in the bias of the western scholars' opinions violates the basic tenets of Misplaced Pages policy. As much as I like DML, he is not an authority on the subject, did not know classical Armenian nor did he conduct any studies in the matter. Intentionally ignoring authoritative sources like Sargsyan and Malkhasyants just because they worked in the Soviet Union and lived in Armenia is not reason enough to reserve preferential treatment for others.

It's unfortunate that you are unable to speak Armenian nor Russian but this article was not created for you; for those people who want to learn more about Movses, they're going to have to consult sources in foreign languages. I will try to find updated references to Movses in additional journals but you have clearly erred in your reckless witch hunt to snuff out nationalism --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 16:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

See WP:VUE on "Non-English sources":

Because this is the English Misplaced Pages, editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source has been used correctly. Where editors translate a direct quote, they should quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Misplaced Pages editors.

--Folantin (talk) 16:15, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, but that's just a recommended guideline. Far from an enforced piece of rule. I'm more than open to reducing the number of non-English citations and replacing them with something from Google books or elsewhere in English. You can highlight sentences and passages that are referenced by non-English sources and that you would like to see replaced here and we can work from there. In any event, Dbachmann's boldness is unacceptable.-- Ευπάτωρ 16:42, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree that Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia is a very mysterious source that is used in many articles here, but which no one outside of Armenia can verify, as it is written in Armenian. Considering that Great Soviet Encyclopedia is not considered a reliable source on most topics, I don't think any other Soviet encyclopedia should be considered a reliable source. Grandmaster 20:15, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

That logic makes absolutely no sense. The SAE is not some inaccessible source with obscure publishing origins. Even Robert Hewsen boasts about his collection in his Armenia: A Historical Atlas. I wish I could access some of the sources regarding the Serbian related articles but I don't read Serbian nor have access to their scholarly literature. But that's not enough for me to call for their removal (something about good faith?). We're not trying to seriously prove that Stalin did not enact the Great Terror here. But as of yet, Dbachmann's insulting language (bordering on racism) against Soviet Armenian historians, to say nothing of his unilateral, ill-faith, shamelessly POV edits, have not gotten us anywhere. Additional reverts should be discouraged.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 03:36, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The entire "biography" is unverifiable to anyone without access to Soviet-era Armenian literature. That's of course not true. When I wrote the article in French, I used for the biographic part:

• Claude Mutafian (dir.), Arménie, la magie de l'écrit, Somogy, Paris, 2007, ISBN 978-2-7572-0057-5
• Moïse de Khorène (trad. Annie et Jean-Pierre Mahé), Histoire de l'Arménie, coll. « L'aube des peuples », Gallimard, Paris, 1993, ISBN 2-07-072904-4
• Agop Jack Hacikyan (dir.), The Heritage of Armenian Literature, vol. II : From the Sixth to the Eighteenth Century, Wayne State University, Détroit, 2002, ISBN 0-8143-3023-1

Sardur (talk) 21:30, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

• I don't think that Soviet sources should be rejected altogether, but they should be used with care, especially sources like Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia. We all know that such publications were written as part of the Soviet propaganda campaign. I think that Western sources generally are more preferable. As for rvs, I would like to remind Marshal that he is under 1 rv per week restriction, which he violated more than once within the last couple of days. Next time I will have to report the violation to WP:AE, so please do not rv this article during the next 7 days. Grandmaster 04:46, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Please see below some excerpts from a source from around the same time as Malkhasyants, i.e. 1940. It explains in more detail the criticism of early dating of Movses, including some of the sources mentioned in the article.

Even though he (Khorenatsi) is not the earliest of Armenian historians (assuming for the moment that wrote late in the fifth century), yet he has been called the father of Armenian historians, the Armenian Herodotus. He has been referred to by all writers during at least ten centuries as the Grammarian, a word which in its Armenian original signifies the most learned among writers of history.

3 The first attempt to write a history of Armenia was made by Agathangelos, the Greek secretary to King Tiridates (387-442 A.D.), in his History of King Tiridates, originally written in Greek. The second writer, Faustus of Byzantium, who wrote a History of Armenia covering 344-392 A.D., was probably also a Greek.

4 Though it has been assumed that he wrote in the fifth century, yet the earliest reference to his work is made by John Catholicos in his History of Armenia, a work written in the third decade of the tenth century.

Very little is known about this unique character, and that little has come down to us through his History. Therein (Book III, chapt. 60) we are told that he was a disciple of Fathers Sahag and Mesrob, the two learned men who originated the Armenian alphabet (in 412 A. D.), that they sent him to Edessa, Alexandria, Byzantium and Athens to study (III 62), and that at the time of the composition of his History he was an old and infirm man, preoccupied with works of translation (III 65). Since his History concludes with the year 440 A. D., it was naturally supposed that he wrote after the middle of the fifth century. This supposition was at first generally accepted, the prevalent belief being that it was written some time between 460 and 480. The validity of this date was for a while accepted even by one (the late Alfred von Gutschmid of the University of Leipzig) who subsequently proved to be the severest critic of our author.5 Such was, and to a large extent still is, the traditional view about the life and the work of Moses of Khoren which was accepted by the Armenians. It is this traditional and unquestioned view that has been subjected to much severe criticism during the course of the past hundred years. The object of this paper is to summarize and evaluate such criticism.

In the seventies of the last century Alfred von Gutschmid brought to bear all the weight of his scholarship and concluded that the Hlistory was written not in the years 460-480 (as he once had supposed), but between the years 634 and 642. His most weighty argument was confirmed by Moses of Khoren's anachronistic passages, such as his reference to the division of Armenia Major into four provinces (which division took place in 536), and his reference to the Persian advance in Bithynia (which point the Persians first reached in 609). The Nestor of Leipzig was not only the first noted authority to expose convincingly the most serious defects of the History, but he also remains as the first to emphasize the fact that Moses of Khoren, assuming that he wrote in the fifth century, was sadly lacking in contemporary historical knowledge.

In 1892 the late Auguste Carriere of the Ecole des Langues Orientales Vivantes (Paris) carried the study of our author's History a step further and came out with another startling exposure. His studies not only convinced him that the History was a work of the eighth century but also that its celebrated author liberally used sources to which he makes no reference at all. Thus in addition, Moses of Khoren was accused of plagiarism. According to Carriere the two works which Moses of Khoren used freely were the Life of Silvester and the Ecclesiastical History of Sokrates. The former was available in the Armenian translation no earlier than the year 690, and the latter in 696. Here, therefore, "was proof, short and peremptory," that Moses of Khoren's History was at best a work of the eighth century.

This sort of argument was exploited to the full by the late G. Khalathianz of the Lazarev Institute (Moscow). In his monumental study, The Armenian Epic, he examined Moses of Khoren's History and concluded that our author copied not only from works already indicated by Carriere but also from those of Sebeos (an Armenian writer of the seventh century), Faustus of Byzantium, and specially from Ghevont (Leontius) the Elder. And as the work of the last named writer was ready only in the year 790, Moses of Khoren must have written some time after that date, probably early in the ninth century."

A. O. Sarkissian. On the Authenticity of Moses of Khoren's History. Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 60, No. 1 (Mar., 1940), pp. 73-81

This paper also provides some counter arguments in support of 5th century dating, but overall conclusion is that it was not possible to make a definite conclusion about the dating of this scholar. Since then not much changed, most leading western scholars date this author much later than the 5th century, while the scholars in Armenia insist that he was a 5th century scholar. Grandmaster 05:17, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I've read Sarkissian's article before and the last paragraphs show how outdated the article really is; if we're not even talk about Movses' dating, Khalatyants' and Carriere's arguments that the History of Armenia has no historical value is rejected by every scholar, Armenian and Western (i.e., see Robert Hewsen's article in the Armenian Review, 1985). And no, actual leading scholars on Movses, such as Malkhasyants, Gagik Sargsyan, Babken Harutyunyan, to name a few, (Toumanoff is not an expert in classical Armenian, neither is DML) agree that Movses was a scholar of the fifth century. Them having to write their opinions in Armenia is a moot and absolutely irrelevant point. We should all stop bringing up the location of these scholars as if they really played role in formulating their opinions.

And my second revert was in response to Dbachmann's ill-faith edits. We're not restricted from reverting an article that is mutilated to such a degree that he subjected it to. I have just taken a look at Aram Topchyan's book (Peeters, 2006) and it provides some especially interesting information on sources published after 1991 and a general evaluation on on the validity of the criticism directed at Movses. Assuming the tidal wave recedes, and there are no more Dbachmann-like edits which only deliberately serve to provoke other users, I will add the relevant information within the coming days. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 05:33, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

First, how do we know that Malkhasyants, Gagik Sargsyan, Babken Harutyunyan are leading scholars on Movses? Who says that those people are leading, and all the western armenologists are not? In the light of nationalistic attacks on the western scholars in Armenia, such as those described here: I would prefer the opinion of impartial experts on the topic. This is from the document called "Declaration of the Chair of Armenian History at the State University of Yerevan about the basic tendencies of American Armenology".

Several American "armenologists", without taking into account the difficult and dangerous situation prevailing at present for Armenia and the Armenian people, with their "analyses" and "conclusions" have thrown water on the mill of Turkish and Azerbaijani pseudo-historians and leaders (Nina Garsoïan, James Russell, Ronald Suny, Robert Thomson, Levon Avdoyan, Robert Hewsen and others). Those persons of "objective" learning, but in reality led by principles of political opportunism have begun, surprising as it may be, even on the issue of the Armenian Genocide to gradually subscribe to and to propagate points-of-view which bow to Turkey.

When the Chair of Armenian History makes such bad faith attacks on respected international scholars, it is hard to except objectivity from them. And here some Armenian historians accuse the prominent western armenologists of deliberately falsifying the history of Armenia by the order of the US State Department! It looks like many historians in Armenia are motivated by patriotism, rather than objectivity, support conspiracy theories and not capable of dealing with criticism.

As for your editing restrictions, you can make only 1 rv per week, except obvious vandalism. The edits that you reverted were not vandalism. So please be careful. --Grandmaster 06:18, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

lol

GM, had you read the response of the Chair of Armenian History, Babken Harutyunyan, to the declaration, you would know that it was done without his foreknowledge and when he was out of the country see here. Furthermore, it was pushed by a minority group and we all know the actions of a few do not represent the beliefs of their colleagues. Yes, unfortunately Ayvazyan's study goes too far in its looney conclusions but the mistakes it points out are perfectly factual and its unfortunate that a proper general survey of the works of American scholars has yet to be conducted.

I give far greater credence to the scholars like Sargsyan and Harutyunyan because they had nothing better to do but to literally spent all their days at the Matenadran, reading one manuscript after another, analyzing one line of text after another. Sargsyan has published at least two books just dedicated to MK and his work has been commended by non-Armenian scholars. Malkhasyants himself spent over 65 years dedicated to the study of classical Armenian literature. Thomson aside, Toumanoff never carried out such studies (nor even bothered to learn classical Armenian), Hewsen's knowledge of it is rather negligible, and DML certainly did not. I'm simply advising others to simply take a breath and cease pushing their agendas so blindly.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:57, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

But that's just your personal opinion, isn't it? Which reliable source considers those people, unknown outside of Armenia, to be better experts on the topic, than professors in Western universities? As for Aivazian, that guy is just a historical revisionist, and his criticism cannot be taken seriously. This is from his interview:

- Во-первых, независимое армянское государство не было кратковременным явлением. Если мы даже не будем углубляться в еще более древние времена, а возьмем только царства Хайасы, Урарту, Ервандидов, Арташесидов и Аршакуни, то армянская государственность к моменту падения Аршакуни в 428 г. имела почти двухтысячелетнюю историю с непрерывным функционированием важнейших государственных институтов.

Independent Armenian state was not a short time event. Even if we don't delve into more ancient times, and take only the states of Hayasa, Urartu, Yervandid, Artashesid and Arshakuni, the Armenian statehood by the time of the fall of Arshakuni in 428 had almost 2-thoushand year history with functioning of the most important state institutions.

Typical revisionist concept of Armenian history, described by Shnirelman, Kohl and others. It is a general knowledge that Urartu and Khayasa were not Armenian states, and his attacks on the Western scholars are motivated by the fact that they do not support these revisionist concepts. And I find it strange that a small group of people can publish such declarations without the knowledge of the chair. Typical Soviet policy, when the leader does not express his opinion until the last moment, when he sees who's winning. In sum, we need to establish the notability of the scholars you consider to be the most authoritative on the topic. Who considers those people to be the top authority on this subject? --Grandmaster 06:16, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

You can read a part of Aivazian's work in English here: It is quite interesting that in the opening credits he thanks Babken Harutyunyan. Grandmaster 07:04, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

This is from Ronald Grigor Suny:

While from one angle historical writing in Soviet Armenia can be seen as part of a general marxisant narrative of progress upward from class and imperial oppression to socialist liberation, in the post-Stalin years scholars promoted insistently national themes. Occasionally the regime would discipline the bolder voices, but Soviet Armenian historians waged an effective guerrilla war against denationalization of their history. The story of the republic of Armenia was told as a story of ethnic Armenians, with the Azerbaijanis and Kurds largely left out, just as the histories of neighboring republics were reproduced as narratives of the titular nationalities. Because the first "civilization" within the territory of the Soviet Union was considered to have been the Urartian, located in historic Armenia, the ancient roots of Armenian history were planted in the first millennium B.C. Urartian sites and objects of material culture were featured prominently in museums, and late in the Soviet period Erevantsis celebrated the 2700th anniversary of the founding of their city (originally the Urartian Erebuni or Arin Berd). Although the link between Urartu and Armenians took hold in the popular mind, most scholars believe Urartu to have been a distinct pre-Armenian culture and language and, following Herodotus, argue that the original proto-Armenians were probably a Thraco-Phryian branch of the Indo-European-speaking tribes. Nevertheless, a revisionist school of historians in the 1980s proposed that, rather than being migrants into the region, Armenians were the aboriginal inhabitants, identified with the region Hayasa in northern Armenia. For them Armenians have lived continuously on the Armenian plateau since the fourth millennium B.C., and Urartu was an Armenian state. A rather esoteric controversy over ethnogenesis soon became a weapon in the cultural wars with Azerbaijan, as Azerbaijani scholars tried to establish a pre-Turkic (earlier than the eleventh century) origin for their nation.

The nationalist thrust of Soviet Armenian historiography extended into a fierce critique of foreign historians who attempted to question sacred assumptions in the canonical version of Armenian history. The holder of the chair in Armenian studies at Harvard University, Robert Thomson, had the temerity to assert that Movses Khorenatsi, whom Armenian historians had claimed as a fifth-century author, was actually an eighth-century writer with a clear political agenda that served his dynastic master. He went on to call him "an audacious, and mendacious, faker." "A mystifier of the first order," Movses "quotes sources at second hand as if he had read the original; he invents archives to lend the credence of the written word to oral tradition or to his own inventions; he rewrites Armenian history in a completely fictitious manner, as in his adaptations of Josephus.... Whoever Moses was, he was not only learned but clever. His protestations of strict methodology were intended to deceive, to divert critical attention, and to encourage acceptance of his own tendentious narrative." Soviet Armenian scholars bitterly attacked Thomson's dating of Khorenatsi and his characterization of the author. In a sense, a foreigner had tampered with the soul of the nation.

A young historian in post-Soviet Armenia, Armen Aivazian, begins his critical review of American historiography on his country by declaring, "Armenian history is the inviolable strategic reserve of Armenia." His views, hailed by his countrymen, provide a window into the particular form of historical reconstruction of Armenian identity and historical imagination that dominates post-Soviet Armenian historiography. His tone is militant and polemical, for his self-appointed task is to defend Armenia from its historiographical enemies. "From the point of view of Armenia's national (internal, civil, and foreign, international) security," he tells his readers, "in its consequences Western pseudo-Armenology is more harmful and dangerous than Turkish-Azerbaijani historiographical falsification because this is the real basis of the propaganda carried out on an international scale against the interests of Armenia and is also a constituent part of that propaganda."

Ronald Grigor Suny. Constructing Primordialism: Old Histories for New Nations. The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 73, No. 4 (Dec., 2001), pp. 862—896

Grandmaster 13:38, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

we need to establish the notability of the scholars : very easy, with Mutafian and Mahé. Sardur (talk) 10:31, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Mathematician turned historian Claude Mutafian is not more authoritative than the chair of Armenian studies in Harvard Robert Thompson, or professors Robert Hewsen, Cyrill Toumanoff, encyclopedia Britannica, etc. I read Mutafian's book "The Caucasian Knot" and was not really impressed, it is a typical propaganda type puplication. I'm not saying that his opinion should be excluded, but I think that the mainstream view should be presented as well. At present the article claims the fifth century dating as a fact, and ignores the fact that most of Western experts reject this dating. Grandmaster 13:38, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

In 1828, a French scholar, J. St Martin, who had visited Van in 1823, began to grope towards an explanation by connecting these texts with the garbled legends preserved by an Armenian chronicler, (Moses Khorenatsi), probably of the eighth century AD, according to whom the region was invaded from Assyria by a great army under its queen Semiramis who built a wondrous fortified city, citadel, and palaces at Van itself beside the lake. With this was linked a romantic myth concerning her love for a beautiful semi-divine youth named Ara, a figure of the type of the 'dying god'. It is clear that by the time of Moses of Khorene all other memory of this kingdom, once the deadly rival of Assyria itself, had been forgotten and remained so, except for these popular legends.

John Boardman, I. E. S. Edwards, Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond, E. Sollberger. The Cambridge ancient history. Cambridge University Press, 1982. ISBN 0521224969, 9780521224963, p. 314

Grandmaster 14:04, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

enough

Grandmaster (talk · contribs) has heaped up enough references now. If Marshal Bagramyan or Eupator want to defend their opinion that the question isn't settled, let them cite an academic, peer-reviewed reference post-dating 1991 (i.e. post-dating the Soviet Union). This isn't too much to ask. WP:CITE isn't optional.

Is this understood, Marshal? No more polemics about "ill-faith, shamelessly POV edits". Own up with decent references, or shut up. If you present a decent reference, I will defend its inclusion. As long as you don't, I will oppose your attempts at insinuating a "controversy" based on stale, 30-years-old patriotism. The entire comedy of Soviet Armenian Armenologists referenced above should be covered at Armenian studies. It is interesting that The nationalist thrust of Soviet Armenian historiography extended into a fierce critique of foreign historians who attempted to question sacred assumptions in the canonical version of Armenian history, but this is 20th century history, while this article is supposed to deal with an 8th century work of historiography. This isn't armeniapedia, so please spare us the naive patriotism. If you want to write an {{in-universe}} article, may I suggest editing here. --dab (𒁳) 15:01, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I suggest that you calm down and use the discussion page to gain consensus. As for Grandmaster and his generous contributions of completely irrelevant references that appear to assist you in attaining a hard on, lets just say that he's wielding an axe greater than Mjöllnir to grind. Now drop the condescending bullshit and wikilawyering and get this through your head. I'm not disputing any content whatsoever, neither is Marshal as far as I can tell. My objection concerns your butchering of the article by way of removing sourced material (and images as well now) and the insane amount of undue weight applied to certain sections. Since when are we giving so much credence to tertiary sources? That last part is not only condescending, it's quite xenophobic. Tread lightly!-- Ευπάτωρ 17:12, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

merge

in light of the statement in Britannica that "Nothing is known of his life apart from alleged autobiographical details contained in this work", this article should just become an "author" section in the History of Armenia (Movses Khorenatsi) article. --dab (𒁳) 14:18, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I think this author deserves a dedicated article, as he is considered an author of more than one work (as far as I know some other works are also attributed to him, though I might be wrong), and is considered the father of the Armenian historiography. Plus, the controversy surrounding his persona also deserves a presentation in a separate article, which should be the one about himself. Grandmaster 15:53, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

the absense of interwiki links at the History article is conspicuous. I think the article on "Moses of Chorene" is usually in fact the article on his History. We can merge the two articles under this title, no problem. The claim that other works are attributed to him is shaky: such claims as we had here were completely unreferenced and Britannica states plainly that nothing is known about him other than what he states in his History. --dab (𒁳) 14:56, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

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