| Revision as of 03:20, 14 April 2009 editSephiroth BCR (talk | contribs)25,432 edits →Treecat: delete← Previous edit | Revision as of 05:35, 14 April 2009 edit undoJack Merridew (talk | contribs)34,837 edits →Treecat: +delNext edit → | ||
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| **Those 150K google hits quickly degenerate into cat scratching trees and other things unrelated to this topic -- that's why I pointed toward the same search in my deletion rationale. Beyond that, the ones that actually relate to this H'verse topic are flickr pictures, Misplaced Pages mirrors, and fan sites. This doesn't establish notability. --] (]) 18:21, 12 April 2009 (UTC) | **Those 150K google hits quickly degenerate into cat scratching trees and other things unrelated to this topic -- that's why I pointed toward the same search in my deletion rationale. Beyond that, the ones that actually relate to this H'verse topic are flickr pictures, Misplaced Pages mirrors, and fan sites. This doesn't establish notability. --] (]) 18:21, 12 April 2009 (UTC) | ||
| *'''Delete'''. Excessive in-universe detail. Apparently part of a very large Honorverse on Misplaced Pages. - ] <small>(] - ])</small> 23:54, 12 April 2009 (UTC) | *'''Delete'''. Excessive in-universe detail. Apparently part of a very large Honorverse on Misplaced Pages. - ] <small>(] - ])</small> 23:54, 12 April 2009 (UTC) | ||
| *: Thanks for that link ;) Cheers, ] 05:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Merge''' the list into the list of characters article, the article into the glossary article, and transwiki to the Honorverse wiki. ] (]) 06:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | *'''Merge''' the list into the list of characters article, the article into the glossary article, and transwiki to the Honorverse wiki. ] (]) 06:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | ||
| *'''Comment''' some of the ''treecats'' are major characters in the series, so I fail to see why the list has been nominated for deletion. The nominator has ]. ] (]) 06:17, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | *'''Comment''' some of the ''treecats'' are major characters in the series, so I fail to see why the list has been nominated for deletion. The nominator has ]. ] (]) 06:17, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | ||
| *:All of the important ones are listed at ]. I know this series fine. - ] <small>(] - ])</small> 06:20, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | *:All of the important ones are listed at ]. I know this series fine. - ] <small>(] - ])</small> 06:20, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | ||
| *'''Keep''' both articles. The series as a whole is important in the sense that a best seller (or in this case multiple bestsellers) is important. It is also the subject of an active forum discussion (at the publisher's site), and has attracted several other writers who have published stories in the series universe. The ] article is about an important (and it seems increasingly so) species in this universe. The ] article s split out of the treecat article some time ago. Various proposasl to reinclude it have not gotten very far. The urge to delete can be taken too far as in this case. Merge of the list into Honorverse characters is also proposed (and re proposed) -- see the talk page fo rthe list of treecats article. | *'''Keep''' both articles. The series as a whole is important in the sense that a best seller (or in this case multiple bestsellers) is important. It is also the subject of an active forum discussion (at the publisher's site), and has attracted several other writers who have published stories in the series universe. The ] article is about an important (and it seems increasingly so) species in this universe. The ] article s split out of the treecat article some time ago. Various proposasl to reinclude it have not gotten very far. The urge to delete can be taken too far as in this case. Merge of the list into Honorverse characters is also proposed (and re proposed) -- see the talk page fo rthe list of treecats article.<br />We have here an excess of exclusionism, and without a real need to conserve disk storage, the bits saved are not sufficient to justify deletion. And, lack of notablility can't be justified in comparison to the multitude sof articles about records issued by obscure band.s Indeed, of article about obscure bands. Or the vast number of geographical stubs about nations with good geodetic surveys. Personal distaste is insufficient, and deletion for such reasons is a discredit to WP. ] (]) 07:21, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | ||
| ⚫ | *:But it's not in any way a significant part of the work in the universe that we live in. You don't need to know much more than that they're sapient tree-dwelling cats that rarely develop an empathic bond with humans to understand the Honorverse novels or understand our articles on the Honorverse novels. That other stuff exists doesn't change this. - ] <small>(] - ])</small> 07:25, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | ||
| :We have here an excess of exclusionism, and without a real need to conserve disk storage, the bits saved are not sufficient to justify deletion. And, lack of notablility can't be justified in comparison to the multitude sof articles about records issued by obscure band.s Indeed, of article about obscure bands. Or the vast number of geographical stubs about nations with good geodetic surveys. Personal distaste is insufficient, and deletion for such reasons is a discredit to WP. ] (]) 07:21, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *: nb: it's never about saving space; the database only grows. Cheers, ] 05:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ⚫ | |||
| *'''Delete'''. Excessive in-universe detail. Far beyond the bounds of an (electronic) encyclopedia. ] (]) 07:51, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | *'''Delete'''. Excessive in-universe detail. Far beyond the bounds of an (electronic) encyclopedia. ] (]) 07:51, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | ||
| *'''Keep''' For reasons mentioned above. Its perfectly legitimate encyclopedic content, with enough information to fill its own page. I'm against any attempt to merge it, and certainly would object to someone trying to delete it simply because they don't like it, believe they are helping the wikipedia by deleting every fiction article they can get away with, or because of their interpretation of a suggested guideline, which aren't bonding anyway, they guidelines not policy. ]''' 11:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | *'''Keep''' For reasons mentioned above. Its perfectly legitimate encyclopedic content, with enough information to fill its own page. I'm against any attempt to merge it, and certainly would object to someone trying to delete it simply because they don't like it, believe they are helping the wikipedia by deleting every fiction article they can get away with, or because of their interpretation of a suggested guideline, which aren't bonding anyway, they guidelines not policy. ]''' 11:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | ||
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| ::*Then can you articulate a reason to make an exception to GNG for this content, without resorting to empty assertions like, "]" and "]"? --] (]) 13:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | ::*Then can you articulate a reason to make an exception to GNG for this content, without resorting to empty assertions like, "]" and "]"? --] (]) 13:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | ||
| :::Can you tell us why we should follow the suggested guidelines, and how they help us in this case? They are just suggestions on how to improve the wikipedia, but you are suppose to use ] and ] above all else. ]''' 21:01, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | :::Can you tell us why we should follow the suggested guidelines, and how they help us in this case? They are just suggestions on how to improve the wikipedia, but you are suppose to use ] and ] above all else. ]''' 21:01, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | ||
| *::::Given your apparently tenuous grasp of ], ] and even the ] you cite, I don't see much use in try to engage with you any more. Happy editing. --] (]) 21:12, 13 April 2009 (UTC) |
*::::Given your apparently tenuous grasp of ], ] and even the ] you cite, I don't see much use in try to engage with you any more. Happy editing. --] (]) 21:12, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | ||
| *:Yeah, treecats are major characters in some of the stories. If you need specific stories specified, say so. oooo, alliteration! - ] (]) 19:46, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | *:Yeah, treecats are major characters in some of the stories. If you need specific stories specified, say so. oooo, alliteration! - ] (]) 19:46, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | ||
| *::As I said below: being important within fiction != being important to the real world, which is ]. --] (]) 19:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | *::As I said below: being important within fiction != being important to the real world, which is ]. --] (]) 19:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | ||
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| *'''Delete''' for lacking ] through significant coverage from reliable sources. Additionally, ], since fictional topics should have real-world context. There only exists one sentence of that here. —<font face="Palatino Linotype">]</font> (] • ]) 23:56, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | *'''Delete''' for lacking ] through significant coverage from reliable sources. Additionally, ], since fictional topics should have real-world context. There only exists one sentence of that here. —<font face="Palatino Linotype">]</font> (] • ]) 23:56, 13 April 2009 (UTC) | ||
| *'''Delete'''. Complete lack of any assertion of notability whatsoever, clear failure of ]. — <font face="Segoe Script">]</font> <font face="Verdana"><sup>'''(])'''</sup></font> 03:20, 14 April 2009 (UTC) | *'''Delete'''. Complete lack of any assertion of notability whatsoever, clear failure of ]. — <font face="Segoe Script">]</font> <font face="Verdana"><sup>'''(])'''</sup></font> 03:20, 14 April 2009 (UTC) | ||
| *'''Delete''' per the other comments above; ] more appropriate for ]. Cheers, ] 05:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 05:35, 14 April 2009
Treecat
- Treecat (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)
- List of treecats (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Entirely unreferenced in-universe trivia and plot summary. No assertion of notability. Google/Google Books searches yield only primary sources, wiki(a) and fan sites. Article and list fail WP:GNG, WP:RS, WP:PLOT, WP:IINFO. --EEMIV (talk) 05:40, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- Delete- I think the nominator's hit the nail on the head. You can't justify articles like these with only primary sources, and I can't find any proper ones either. Reyk YO! 06:43, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- Merge - somewhere. Possibly List of planets in the Honorverse#S? The articles on this particular fantasy series aren't very well structured, but I'm not familiar with the books (and, on reading the Treecat article, I don't think I want to be) so can't really suggest how to improve this issue. Tevildo (talk) 06:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- Keep I feel this article has potential. Debresser (talk) 13:10, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- See!? I found a real world influence of treecats (apart from the forum username), and added it to the article. And I am sure this is only the beginning: Asimov also became famous slowly. Debresser (talk) 16:12, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- Fame has nothing to do with it. Neither does Asimov, in fact. Sources, for this subject, count. Did you find anything to support the vast gobbets of unsourced analysis and factual claims in this article, from statememts about the sizes of these things to analysis of their sense of humour? Uncle G (talk) 16:19, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- Those can be found. There is no original research here, just bringing together information, which is an editors job. The problem is locating the source for all the things.
- And my example of Asimov was more relevant than you make it seem. Because we are building an encyclopedia here, and if something needs to be here, because it has potential, than we should be bold and ignore a few rules.
- Fame has nothing to do with it. Neither does Asimov, in fact. Sources, for this subject, count. Did you find anything to support the vast gobbets of unsourced analysis and factual claims in this article, from statememts about the sizes of these things to analysis of their sense of humour? Uncle G (talk) 16:19, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- See!? I found a real world influence of treecats (apart from the forum username), and added it to the article. And I am sure this is only the beginning: Asimov also became famous slowly. Debresser (talk) 16:12, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- As stated in Misplaced Pages:Notability (fiction) about notability guidelines for fiction: "However, note that strict application of these guidelines to fictional subjects is controversial, and does not enjoy a clear consensus". I'd like to as for a keep for this article on this ground also. Especially since the recently proposed guideline there hasn't been accepted, and further research seems to suggest other criteria, e.g. inherited notability (as in this case, where notability can be inherited from the Honorverse books). Debresser (talk) 16:24, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- Keep. Per Debresser, and per ~150k Google hits. Many of Honorverse concpets are not notable and should be merged or transwikified, granted. This one is, undoubtedly, one of the biggest exceptions. PS. One thing that we could consider is to merge the list of treecats into treecat article, or the list of Honorverse characters.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:42, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- Those 150K google hits quickly degenerate into cat scratching trees and other things unrelated to this topic -- that's why I pointed toward the same search in my deletion rationale. Beyond that, the ones that actually relate to this H'verse topic are flickr pictures, Misplaced Pages mirrors, and fan sites. This doesn't establish notability. --EEMIV (talk) 18:21, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- Delete. Excessive in-universe detail. Apparently part of a very large Honorverse walled garden on Misplaced Pages. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 23:54, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for that link ;) Cheers, Jack Merridew 05:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- Merge the list into the list of characters article, the article into the glossary article, and transwiki to the Honorverse wiki. 70.29.213.241 (talk) 06:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Comment some of the treecats are major characters in the series, so I fail to see why the list has been nominated for deletion. The nominator has WP:IDONTKNOWIT. 70.29.213.241 (talk) 06:17, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- All of the important ones are listed at List of Honorverse characters. I know this series fine. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 06:20, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Keep both articles. The series as a whole is important in the sense that a best seller (or in this case multiple bestsellers) is important. It is also the subject of an active forum discussion (at the publisher's site), and has attracted several other writers who have published stories in the series universe. The treecat article is about an important (and it seems increasingly so) species in this universe. The list of treecats article s split out of the treecat article some time ago. Various proposasl to reinclude it have not gotten very far. The urge to delete can be taken too far as in this case. Merge of the list into Honorverse characters is also proposed (and re proposed) -- see the talk page fo rthe list of treecats article.
We have here an excess of exclusionism, and without a real need to conserve disk storage, the bits saved are not sufficient to justify deletion. And, lack of notablility can't be justified in comparison to the multitude sof articles about records issued by obscure band.s Indeed, of article about obscure bands. Or the vast number of geographical stubs about nations with good geodetic surveys. Personal distaste is insufficient, and deletion for such reasons is a discredit to WP. ww (talk) 07:21, 13 April 2009 (UTC)- But it's not in any way a significant part of the work in the universe that we live in. You don't need to know much more than that they're sapient tree-dwelling cats that rarely develop an empathic bond with humans to understand the Honorverse novels or understand our articles on the Honorverse novels. That other stuff exists doesn't change this. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 07:25, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- nb: it's never about saving space; the database only grows. Cheers, Jack Merridew 05:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- Delete. Excessive in-universe detail. Far beyond the bounds of an (electronic) encyclopedia. JBsupreme (talk) 07:51, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Keep For reasons mentioned above. Its perfectly legitimate encyclopedic content, with enough information to fill its own page. I'm against any attempt to merge it, and certainly would object to someone trying to delete it simply because they don't like it, believe they are helping the wikipedia by deleting every fiction article they can get away with, or because of their interpretation of a suggested guideline, which aren't bonding anyway, they guidelines not policy. Dream Focus 11:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Question for those suggesting keep - Can any of you demonstrate the notability of the topic? --EEMIV (talk) 11:52, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- We don't have to, since those are just guidelines/suggestions, not policy, and can be ignored. They are just suggestions on how to determine if something should remain, not binding laws. Does this article hurt wikipedia in any possible way? If someone wasn't interested in the topic, are they likely to ever find it? Is it potentially interesting or useful to some people? Is there enough information here to warrant its own article, and not be merged with other things? Dream Focus 12:58, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Then can you articulate a reason to make an exception to GNG for this content, without resorting to empty assertions like, "it doesn't hurt anything" and "it's useful"? --EEMIV (talk) 13:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Can you tell us why we should follow the suggested guidelines, and how they help us in this case? They are just suggestions on how to improve the wikipedia, but you are suppose to use wp:common sense and ignore all rules above all else. Dream Focus 21:01, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah, treecats are major characters in some of the stories. If you need specific stories specified, say so. oooo, alliteration! - Denimadept (talk) 19:46, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- As I said below: being important within fiction != being important to the real world, which is what Misplaced Pages calls for. --EEMIV (talk) 19:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Important to the real world? What are you talking about? 99% of the stuff on the wikipedia isn't important, its just interesting entertainment. 99% of the articles on insects are about useless ones you couldn't possibly have any reason to need to know anything about. But some people enjoy learning about bugs, so its there, it entertainment for them. Do you think learning about every Roman Emperor, or ancient civilization, is important to the real world in any possible way? Misplaced Pages is mostly entertainment, that's it. Dream Focus 21:01, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- 99% of the stuff on the wikipedia isn't important, its just interesting entertainment - It is to your benefit you find much of it interesting entertainment. But if that is the limit of your perspective on the project, I don't see much use for (engaging with) you. Happy editing. --EEMIV (talk) 21:12, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Important to the real world? What are you talking about? 99% of the stuff on the wikipedia isn't important, its just interesting entertainment. 99% of the articles on insects are about useless ones you couldn't possibly have any reason to need to know anything about. But some people enjoy learning about bugs, so its there, it entertainment for them. Do you think learning about every Roman Emperor, or ancient civilization, is important to the real world in any possible way? Misplaced Pages is mostly entertainment, that's it. Dream Focus 21:01, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- As I said below: being important within fiction != being important to the real world, which is what Misplaced Pages calls for. --EEMIV (talk) 19:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Delete wikipedia is not a fan site (there are many many places on the internet for this kind of stuff) and there are no sources independent of the subject that establish this as a notable subject on its own -- it's a plot element.Bali ultimate (talk) 13:17, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Keep - True, it's not a fan site. It's a meta-fansite. Which fiction do you keep, and which do you toss? The Honorverse is popular, not on the level of Harry Potter, but it sells enough for its author to keep getting published. Treecats are, at times, very significant to the plot, hardly a mere "plot element". - Denimadept (talk) 19:44, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Can you point to any third-party that has recognized the importance of tree cats such that they've offered the topic significant coverage? Being important within fiction is not the same as being important to the real world, which is the perspective called for per WP:GNG, WP:WAF. --EEMIV (talk) 19:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- It's a problem, no lie. Finding a significance to fictional characters is tough to show. Does Honor Harrington herself have significance? Does Frankenstein's monster? What sort of significance is needed? Are sales figures important, or just cultural references? How long do you allow for either to develop? - Denimadept (talk) 19:58, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Can you point to any third-party that has recognized the importance of tree cats such that they've offered the topic significant coverage? Being important within fiction is not the same as being important to the real world, which is the perspective called for per WP:GNG, WP:WAF. --EEMIV (talk) 19:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Delete Misplaced Pages isn't a fansite. It isn't a meta-fansite. Misplaced Pages is in all respects a discriminate encyclopedia, we don't let just anything on. We have rigourous guidelines of inclusion which work off of a definition of notability which hasn't been met in this article. Per Misplaced Pages:DEL#REASON an article may be deleted if it doesn't meet the notability guidelines. All of the points that the nominator brings up are valid and per our deletion policy this article should be deleted because it doesn't meet the relevant notability guideline, and because the content is just not suitable for an encyclopedia as it fails WP:PLOT, and WP:WAF. If this would ever be appropriate for an encyclopedia it would have to be covered from an out-of-universe perspective looking in at the topic and analyizing its significance in the real world. If this is impossible, which I highly suspect it is, the article doesn't belong here. ThemFromSpace 22:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Delete, completely fails WP:N, and per WP:DEL that IS a valid reason to delete it. It also fails WP:PLOT and WP:WAF. The topic of "treecat" has not received significant coverage in reliable, third-party sources and despite what some would like us to believe, Misplaced Pages IS still an encyclopedia, and NOT a fansite. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 23:16, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. — -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 23:16, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Delete for lacking notability through significant coverage from reliable sources. Additionally, Misplaced Pages is not a plot summary, since fictional topics should have real-world context. There only exists one sentence of that here. —Erik (talk • contrib) 23:56, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Delete. Complete lack of any assertion of notability whatsoever, clear failure of WP:NOT#PLOT. — sephiroth bcr 03:20, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- Delete per the other comments above; another heap of edits more appropriate for Wikia. Cheers, Jack Merridew 05:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC)