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Revision as of 13:16, 14 April 2009

Crime and Criminal Biography Start‑class

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http://en.wikipedia.org/The_May_Day_Mystery notice smiley is part of the mystery — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.207.181.23 (talk • contribs)

The article doesn't mention it, but by my count, many thousands of young men have drowned in the years in which this case is being looked at. Is it really so beyond chance that a smiley, one of the most common pieces of graffiti anywhere, would be found somewhere near 22 or the suspected sites? The article also doesn't mention that the smilies don't look much alike: there's no distinctive signature shape to their design. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.197.62 (talk) 19:53, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

What you say may be true... however please read WP:NOT... No matter how tempting it may be, Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox for rationality, rather it documents notable... for lack of a better word, "things". That you and I both think that the theory is probably hogwash doesn't detract from the fact that this was reported; and is therefore encyclopedic. Its inclusion as a phenomenon in wikipedia is not an endorsement of the phenomenon's claims to truth (see Geocentrism, for example). That having been said, the article could probably be better worded, and (not living in the states, and never having seen it reported) it might not actually be notable. --Storkk (talk) 18:45, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Said maybe better, a theory's truth is irrelevant to its inclusion in Misplaced Pages... only its notability. Cheers, --Storkk (talk) 18:50, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

As police and other reliable sources have argued that the smiley faces could both be accidental and were not found in connection with the murder scenes anyway, I have included those sources. DreamGuy (talk) 22:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Content from redirected page

Skoch3 (talk) 05:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC): Why was all of the content on this page deleted and not included after redirect?

I don't know, but feel free to add it to the article. Like A Rainbow (talk) 05:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Page name?

I noticed that Smiley face murders was just changed to redirect here. Shouldn't it be vice versa? I understand the desire to keep a WP:NPOV but we can't make up neologisms either. Take a look at the Google results, the sources call them the "smiley face murders": . Also whatever the title is should follow WP:MOSTITLE ("Killings" or "Murders" shouldn't be capitalized in the name, and I'm not sure about "Face" either) Oren0 (talk) 23:08, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I moved this page back to Smiley face murders. Oren0 (talk) 18:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

External Links

I noticed there was only ONE external link to this wiki page. I know of many other sites to be added. On top of that, there are high traffic forum discussion threads that could be added, like the posts at God Like Productions (GLP) and Above Top Secret (ATS). I've been editing a lot of pages (adding links) and I got a warning so I might have to add them tomorrow. Momochan86 (talk) 23:51, 28 March 2009 (UTC)momochan86

Two deleted topics

User:DreamGuy has deleted two sections (and references) as 'original research' with his own stated POV belief these were not "drunk drown people (who) were murdered". These are current topics in the news in a developing story. To avoid a revert war, I'm looking for consensus one way or the other.

Canadian link

Twenty two college-age men have disappeared in British Columbia, which have similarities to the US victimology. Investigators have been reluctant to link the disappearances to the US deaths or even each other. The public is calling for an investigation..

Notice that 2 of the 3 references are not mere bloggers as User:DreamGuy believes. One is CanWest News Service and the other is by KSTP journalist, Kristi Piehl, who helped break this developing story. No one yet claims there is a link, but families and journalists are seeking answers.

Questions of sexual discrimination

Families and news staff on both sides of the US-Canadian border question the lack of official concern for young missing men as opposed to missing women.

Here DreamGuy states "majorly POV pushing (it's not sexist to not believe drunk drown people were murdered)". It seems to me that it takes a "majorly POV" to reject statements by (a) a KSTP news anchor and (b) a web site established by investigators specifically for this case. By those lights, this article shouldn't exist at all. However, as a crime writer, I can attest that families and maverick investigators sometimes get it right.

The question is: Should these topics be included or not included?

Thank you for your opinion. --UnicornTapestry (talk) 13:42, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

The basic problem here is that Misplaced Pages is not to be used for advocacy purposes, and that's what a number of these edits were doing. Blog reports (whether Kristi Piehl made the blog entry or not is irrelevant -- if she as a news reporter couldn't get it into mainstream coverage when she normally does coverage that shows that her bosses didn't consider it noteworthy, so why should we?) would be the material that isn't relevant to get mainstream news coverage and so are less likely to be able to be put into the article. The claim of sexual discrimination is a particularly bizarre one to be making, as the police response is that these people drowned because they were drunk. Gender wouldn't have anything to do with it, and suggesting it does based upon some blog posts is reckless.

If you check out our WP:NPOV policy, particularly the WP:UNDUE weight clause, you'll see that we are supposed to present views based upon the reliability and expertise of the sources. The FBI, police departments, leading criminologists and so forth all say that these people died of accidental deaths. We can mention the idea that it wasnt accidental (and indeed the article wouldn't exist otherwise), but we cannot give those claims the majority of the space in the article, as that would be clearly slanted to promote the fringe minority view. If a news anchor trying for publicity and some relatives of dead kids refuse to accept what the authorities say and think there was some serial killer or killers magically dragging big athletic frat boys into water to hope they drown of natural causes instead of getting out and kicking their asses, fine, they can believe whatever they want. But Misplaced Pages is not a WP:SOAPBOX for them to present every argument they make. DreamGuy (talk) 13:57, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Bias and Slander Misplaced Pages

There are several people who have clear bias that have been abusing Wiki. They force thier rejection theories while rejecting and deleting clear patterns that have been documented in the media, both print newspapers and Internet.

One of these people (boyinthemachine) has been spreading his rejection theories all over the Internet and deleting data that doesn't fit his unusual views.

I deleted the rejection theory post because it is full of errors and lacks critical sources. It falsely claims that the Minneapolis Police have rejected the Smiley Face theory. They give no source. Actually the opposite is true. The police discused the theory with the national media and have not ruled out or rejected the smiley face theory in the Chris Jenkins case.

Boyinthemachine and DreamGuy both have stated or implied that a certain named person is the one doing the editing. There is no evidence for this and is libal, for which Misplaced Pages is responsible for.

Boyinthemachine even stated that this person was unprofessional because he was doing this editing. Again, there is no evidence for this. Wiki should remove such comments before it faces a lawsuit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.13.27.175 (talk) 23:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Police: Evidence doesn't support TV report on Jenkins' death

"Minneapolis homicide investigators have been investigating Jenkins' disappearance and death since 2002, the police statement noted. "Although we have collaborated with investigators from the FBI and communicated with other jurisdictions in which similar drownings have occurred, we can neither confirm nor endorse the 'Smiley Face Murders' theory currently being publicized." http://www.startribune.com/local/18375754.html

The problem here is that the one article you site states that the PD "neither confirm nor endorse the Smiley Face Murders theory". This is different from what is claimed on Wiki. The Wiki page says the PD rejected the theory. Not confirming the theory and rejecting the theory are two different things. But your lack of brain activity cannot compute this. You have been preaching your rejection theory all over the Internet for so long now, that you want all real evidence to be deleted so it doesn't make you look like the mindless jerk that you are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.13.27.175 (talk) 10:47, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

FBI Statement Regarding Midwest River Deaths

"Over the past several years, law enforcement and the FBI have received information about young, college-aged men who were found deceased in rivers in the Midwest. The FBI has reviewed the information about the victims provided by two retired police detectives, who have dubbed these incidents the “Smiley Face Murders,” and interviewed an individual who provided information to the detectives. To date, we have not developed any evidence to support links between these tragic deaths or any evidence substantiating the theory that these deaths are the work of a serial killer or killers. The vast majority of these instances appear to be alcohol-related drownings. The FBI will continue to work with the local police in the affected areas to provide support as requested,” said Supervisory Special Agent Richard J. Kolko, Washington, D.C." http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel08/statement042908.htm

This individual is attempting to delete all criticism and the discrediting of the theory in order to promote a biased account in favor of the theory.

This individual is also presenting individual fringe theories as being important to the case. This is not the place for every person's individual theories or specualtion. This is in fact, classic soapbox behavior.BoyintheMachine (talk) 06:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

To the anonymous IP who keeps trying to edit this page: Please read WP:NPOV, which is the policy on Neutral Point of View. This guideline dictates that we as editors display information in a balanced way. This article is not perfect, but since the FBI and major law enforcement agencies have not endorsed the theory of serial killer(s) on the loose, we must present it as only a theory. We are not supposed to convince the world that a theory is correct, only show what evidence exists and also show the evidence against. Also, please read WP:EQ to see what is appropriate to say in Misplaced Pages. Avoid threats and insults. One important quote in Wikiquette is, "Assume good faith." There are alot of guidelines to help us as editors come together to reach consensus. I suggest you read through some of them to understand where the other other editors are coming from. Angryapathy (talk) 12:24, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Deleting on Wiki

The Rejection secion was removed because it contained errors and lacked critical sources. See the Bias and Slander section for a better explaination of this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.13.27.175 (talk) 00:03, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Anon IP (71.13.27.175) and BoyintheMachine: Please stop the WP:OUTING or you will both be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. I'm not entirely sure what's been said already isn't sufficient to get you both indef blocked. If you have any questions about what you've done wrong please see an admin or readWP:OUT. Padillah (talk) 12:23, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Padillah, Boyinthemachine has been posting libalous and undocumented statements on Wiki and other blogs. Like many people on the Internet, he thinks he can post whatever he wants and nobody will know who he really is because he uses a screen name. I am exposing who he is so people can sue him for libal and let him know in other ways how they feel about his childish rants. I cannot be blocked because I have endless IP's. I would be happy to quit posting, if Boyinthemachine apologizes for his libal and removes his libalous posts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.13.27.175 (talk) 12:44, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Please understand: I have notified an Administrator of the actions on this page. They are completely out of line and you are likley going to be blocked for making legal threats as well as trying to reveal others identities. We do not care if you are trying to expose someone, don't do it here. We don't care if you are trying to stop libelous statements: Don't do it here. This is an encyclopedia, or, at least, it's trying to be. And if you keep distracting people from getting the facts right how will it ever improve? Stop the crusade and edit in accordance with it's policies and you might find it's a easier place to be. Try and do an end-run around it's policies and guidelines and you will find your time here very difficult. If you truely believe you cannot be blocked because you "have endless IPs" I feel very sorry for you and the learning you are about to receive. It's your choice. Padillah (talk) 12:54, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Wiki is a two way street, deleting a post because of bias is not a good example of a real encyclopedia. I dare you to try to block me. As long as libal is posted here, I have the right and duty to expose the libaler. As it stands now, I am OK with this page, but if someone adds something libalous, I will make things difficult for them and for anyone else who helps them. See, I was just blocked again, and I'm back. There is no need for acting silly here, just stop the libal!

1. "Missing". CanWest MediaWorks Publications. Vancouver Courier. 2008-05-21. Retrieved 2009-03-30.
2. Thunder, Lola (2008-05-21). "Missing Men in Canada". Hazel8500. Retrieved 2009-03-30.
3. Piehl, Kristi (2009-02-17). "Canadian Connection". sfkillers.com. Retrieved 2009-03-30.
4. Mason, John (2008-04-23). "What if young women went missing?". KSTP. Retrieved 2009-03-30. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
5. Piehl, Kristi (2009-02-08). "The Victims". sfkillers.com. Retrieved 2009-03-30.

• Start-Class Crime-related articles
• Unknown-importance Crime-related articles
• WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography articles