Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:54, 15 April 2009

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Archive 1

Misplaced Pages problematic articles

After another Wikipedian called me a WikiGnome, I added the WikiGnome userbox to my userpage.

Broken references

I fixed some 20 pages from the Category:Misplaced Pages pages with broken references. Did my good deed for today. Debresser (talk) 12:44, 4 February 2009 (UTC) I'll try to keep up the good work. :) Debresser (talk) 15:58, 4 February 2009 (UTC) I did, but in a special way. I fixed a broken reference in template {{US image sources}} and an other in Misplaced Pages:Featured article criteria which appears most notably in template {{Grading scheme}}. (n.b. While I was at it, I created {{PD-USGov-HAER}} and {{PD-USGov-HALS}} and updated {{PD-USGov-Interior-HABS}}. ) That took care of (almost) all subcategories and as the job queue progresses this will take care of a lot of articles as well. As of now, the number of articles in this category went down from over 7000 to some 5000. Apart from that I'll try to do some more work in this area. Debresser (talk) 09:17, 10 February 2009 (UTC) Wow, down to 3000. Debresser (talk) 20:44, 16 February 2009 (UTC) I took care of some more pages. Down to about 2000. Debresser (talk) 16:00, 22 February 2009 (UTC) Fixed a lot of articles in this category yesterday. In order to fix this I fixed a template like this. Not bad. For a mistake. And I used my favorite solution for broken references in templates (see Help:Cite_errors#Other_problems solution #2, which I added, actually) in Template:Largest cities of Russia and Template:Canada CP 2006. Debresser (talk) 22:04, 9 March 2009 (UTC) Down to 1800. Fixed letters A-I. Need help. Debresser (talk) 20:10, 18 March 2009 (UTC) Two days ago I fixed over 80 pages connected with train and tube stations in London, because of a template that generates references, and over the last month I must have fixes some 40 pages connected with locations in Saskatchewan. Debresser (talk) 21:38, 18 March 2009 (UTC) There's a large group of botanist (horticulturist, naturalist, etc.) stubs in this category, because some template adds a reference automatically. I must have fixed some 25 by now, those that I recognised by their names, but there are many more. Debresser (talk) 21:58, 19 March 2009 (UTC) I keep fixing about 50 of them a day and slowly managed to get them down to 1700. But this is more work than one person can do. Debresser (talk) 19:45, 25 March 2009 (UTC) After fixing all entries for the letters J, Q, U, X-Z also, as well as the entries beginning "List" or "The", I got safely below 1700. Today somebody decided to help, and brought them down below 1400 (so far). Debresser (talk) 20:41, 30 March 2009 (UTC) Encouraged by this, I added the letter W. Debresser (talk) 22:46, 30 March 2009 (UTC) Took care of the O and V also. Down to 1300. Debresser (talk) 14:50, 1 April 2009 (UTC) Safely below 1200. Debresser (talk) 13:08, 5 April 2009 (UTC) While I was prepairing for Pesach a few days, some other editor brought that down to below 200! And then I found him. Thank you Sillyfolkboy! Debresser (talk) 09:40, 10 April 2009 (UTC) two days ago made it to 99. Debresser (talk) 21:42, 11 April 2009 (UTC) Together with Sillyfolkboy we cleared this category yesterday. CONGRATULATIONS! Now we'll wait a day and see how many articles appear. I expect some 50-60. Debresser (talk) 11:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect references

I started today on the templates from Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting, as I promised in a Villagepump discussion. Fixed 6 of them so far. All I have to do is paste

== References ==
''This reference list does not appear in the article.''
{{Reflist}}

The only questions are where to add this and whether to add <noinclude> tags or not.

• If there is no documentation page, and the link is therefore in the template itself, add it in the template with <noinclude> tags.
• The same in the case that the link is in the template and there is a documentation page, but that documentation page doesn't call upon the template.
• If there is a documentation page, add it there without <noinclude> tags, regardless whether the link is in the documentation page or in the template itself (unless the documentation page doesn't call upon the link in the template, as stated in the point above). Debresser (talk) 03:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I fixed all (well over a hundred) images in this category. To clear the view on the category page. In order to do so I turned the references on {{PD-Russia-2008}} and {{PD-RU-exempt}} into text, because these templates are used on image files and those usually don't have a reference section. Debresser (talk) 11:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

In order to further clear the view, I fixed all eleven category pages in this category and some ten other templates. Now all that is left are the templates at the letter "I" (from Infobox) and "T" (from Template). And there is Template:Rp/doc that needs a special treatment with grouped references. This I leave for later. Debresser (talk) 13:43, 14 April 2009 (UTC) Fixed Template:Rp/doc. Debresser (talk) 14:30, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Broken citations

I did some work on Category:Articles with broken citations, about 10 articles. Have to be alert for this one. Debresser (talk) 02:01, 6 February 2009 (UTC) That included the article International reaction to the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict which had a LOT of problems with referencing (apart from some sections being included twice). Debresser (talk) 19:37, 8 February 2009 (UTC) I did a lot more work here, and will continue to try and empty this category eventually. Debresser (talk) 09:17, 10 February 2009 (UTC) I did a lot more work. Debresser (talk) 00:00, 13 February 2009 (UTC) Did a lot more work here. Especially List of suicide bombings in Iraq since 2003 was very ugly. Debresser (talk) 04:49, 15 February 2009 (UTC) Finished all of them (well, apart from 3 template pages that have to be like this). Debresser (talk) 12:37, 15 February 2009 (UTC) I try to keep up the good work on a daily basis, but 20-30 articles a day is a little much. Debresser (talk) 21:00, 25 February 2009 (UTC) With a little of my help, an update was made to the Cite web template, which I hope will reduce the number of people who don't add a title to citations. I made some changes to that template's documentation as well, stressing the same thing. Debresser (talk) 09:42, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Invalid date in template

Fixed all (about 15) pages in Category:Articles with invalid date parameter in template. Many more appear every day as editors date tags like "Feb 2009" (abbreviated) or "february 2009" (without capital) or "Februray" (typo) while it should be "February 2009". But there were occasional old templates whose categories had allready been deleted and even a case of vandalism. Debresser Debresser (talk) 11:13, 5 February 2009 (UTC) I did more work in this area. Some funny guy added templates dated 2010 to a bunch of articles. At a certain moment yesterday this category was actually empty. Bots take care of most problems within a few days, but regular check-ups should be made. Debresser (talk) 09:17, 10 February 2009 (UTC) Did a check-up. Left the easy cases for the bot. Took care of a few myself. Debresser (talk) 23:52, 11 February 2009 (UTC) There is just 1 and I can't find the problem. Have a try. Debresser (talk) 16:49, 15 February 2009 (UTC) At this moment they are all gone. Debresser (talk) 20:59, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Unsourced categories

I worked on the articles in the Category:Articles with unsourced categories, but sometimes it is very hard to find reliable sources that say what you are looking for clearly enough to be able to quote them in the article. Nevertheless I manged to add a few sources here and there. Debresser (talk) 00:05, 6 February 2009 (UTC) That took care of half of them, but 6 remain so far. Debresser (talk) 09:17, 10 February 2009 (UTC) I was instrumental (in a non-direct way) to bring that down to 5. Want to help? Debresser (talk) 22:47, 11 February 2009 (UTC) Down to 3. Debresser (talk) 16:47, 15 February 2009 (UTC) Some reappeared and we're back to 7. Debresser (talk) 19:45, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Template loops

This is a nice one: Category:Template loop warnings. I saw two very funny templates made by people who didn't know what they were doing. Put them up for deletion here. And 3 talk pages where the loop was caused by a redirect on a comments page, as pointed out to me by another user here. And a real case of a loop in Misplaced Pages:Translation/Paul_Ehrlich and a few other pages that transcluded it. Currently waiting for expert treatment. Debresser (talk) 22:16, 18 February 2009 (UTC) I am slowly taking down more of them, and gaining experience on the way. Debresser (talk) 21:01, 25 February 2009 (UTC) Today I decided to be bold, and solved Misplaced Pages:Translation/Paul_Ehrlich, and another 3 were connected to it. Now if those 2 templates get deleted, we'll be down to userpages only. Of which I solved a particulairly hard case today, by the way. Debresser (talk) 21:47, 25 February 2009 (UTC) Well, I think I did all I can do here. The few users who are still having template loops on their pages obviously want that to be so. That was fun. Debresser (talk) 19:45, 26 February 2009 (UTC) The templates were deleted and 1 user deleted his loop, and I took care of another one for a user who hasn't been around for over a year (so waiting for his answer might be ill recommended) and there is just 1 left. That user has received a message on his talk page. Debresser (talk) 21:32, 26 February 2009 (UTC) The bot searching for template loops has discovered that someone is solving them, so he brings me new ones all the time now. Debresser (talk) 13:06, 9 March 2009 (UTC) I must have fixed some 100 of them by now. 4 remain unfixed, because they are on userpages and the users are around. Debresser (talk) 23:47, 14 March 2009 (UTC) One of them fixed it himself, two I put in remark tags. One left and we don't see the solution. Debresser (talk) 19:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Self-reference

Fixed the 1 and only page in Category:Articles containing self-references. Debresser Debresser (talk) 11:13, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Overlinked

I started working on articles in the Category:Articles with too many wikilinks and fixed almost all of them. That is hard word, especially if the article is long. One should delete both repetitions of internal links as well as irrelevant ones. Debresser (talk) 11:13, 5 February 2009 (UTC) There were two VERY long and VERY overlinked articles left. Now we're down to one. Debresser (talk) 09:17, 10 February 2009 (UTC) Finished that one. Debresser (talk) 22:46, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Protection templates

And then there is Category:Misplaced Pages pages with incorrect protection templates which I ran into a few times before. Took care of them. Debresser (talk) 17:57, 15 February 2009 (UTC) They keep on turning up, and it seems other editors take care of them very fine. Debresser (talk) 21:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC) Over 180 had accumulated, so I took down some 170 of them, including templates (poor job queue) and userpages (just don't tell the admins). For the 13 pages left, I'll have to ask for help. Debresser (talk) 19:38, 15 March 2009 (UTC) I did a little more work, so make that 9. Debresser (talk) 19:59, 15 March 2009 (UTC) Those 9 were taken care of by others, so now it's EMPTY! Debresser (talk) 19:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC) I keep up the work. There's some 30 of them a day. So far, so good. Debresser (talk) 19:47, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Dead-end pages

Fixed 1 page in Category:All dead-end pages (3 Lions F.C). That is hard work, finding the best categories and links. Debresser (talk) 11:04, 5 February 2009 (UTC) I don't think I'll be doing any more of that. Debresser (talk) 09:17, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Linnea Sinclair

Linnea Sinclair This is the main article.

Megan Baker and Megan Sybil Baker
These are just pages that redirect to the main article. Note that Megan Baker is an article about somebody else with a disambiguation refering to Linnea Sinclair

This is my first try at writing a whole article. It's not going to be anything spectacular, but I'll learn a lot from it. And please be patient: although I don't intend to drag on endlessly with it, I'm also going to try to do it right, which will take some time. See you there. Debresser (talk) 11:54, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

You're obviously a big fan of hers. Please keep in mind our rules about impartiality and a neutral point of view. Anything that reeks of the fansite is likely to be killed quickly. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:02, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I am not a big fan of hers, so don't worry. I did like the stories I read so far. I'm doing this because of two reasons.

1. I was looking for a Misplaced Pages page on her myself.
2. For the fun of writing a Misplaced Pages page myself.

Apart from that, I am aware of Misplaced Pages's NPOV rules, and a lot of other rules too :) (no shortage of rules on Misplaced Pages). Debresser (talk) 15:56, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

A friend of mine sells buttons at science fiction conventions that say, "Oh, no! Not another learning experience!" --Orange Mike | Talk 16:23, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

All information collected today. Set up what you see so far. Tomorrow I'll write the article. Debresser (talk) 22:05, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

It's finished! Now let's have your improvements! Debresser (talk) 14:39, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

{{helpme}}How could I delete my userpages? Debresser (talk) 18:55, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

You can tag them with {{db-userreq}} and an admin will delete them in a short while. Hersfold 19:02, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! Debresser (talk) 19:04, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I've done that and changed the references to them in this subsection to the real pages. Debresser (talk) 19:11, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

For collectors of Favicons only

I would like to make a little personal use of this talk page.

I collect favicons. At the moment I have over 3300 of them. A few of them are 'orphans': I do not know the sites they came from.

I you think you could help, and want to do me a big favor, please have a look at them.

My 'orphan' favicons

Thanks! Debresser (talk) 20:17, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Nice collection. I'll see if I can help out.... --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 11:40, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I have over 3600 favicons. These are my "orphans", so to say. I'd off course be very happy with your help. Debresser (talk) 11:48, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Romantic Fantasy

I reworked the lead of the Romantic Fantasy article. See the Talk page there for what and why. I'd very much appreciate your input.

The subsection on Fantasy Romance in the Romantic novels article was written by Marc Kupper and is based on the new lead. Debresser (talk) 13:14, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I did some work on the list of examples of Romantic Fantasy too. And explained myself on the Talk page. Debresser (talk) 17:48, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

David Weber / Honorverse

David Weber

I started working on the article about Science Fiction writer David Weber.

So far I made just a few small edits, like adding references, removing irrelevant links, small changes in the external links. I'd appreciate your help and advice.

One of the biggest problems is finding sources. Many articles on the web are just copies or excerpts of the existing Misplaced Pages article. I'm starting to think that this is the case with many subjects... Debresser (talk) 13:22, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, no time to start a new project. I took a quick look and realized the Weber article was one I'd glanced over before. I agree this business of copying stuff from Misplaced Pages is a pain. There's also a bunch of web sites out there that try to trap the Google spider or to appear "authoritative" or "official" on some subject or another where I'll recognize the site they stole their data from. Ideally people would be encouraged and allowed to write and maintain their own Misplaced Pages bio as it's extremely likely there not a single iota of information out there that's not directly from the person him or herself. That's also why I believe most of the people, companies, practices, etc. that have articles are not genuinely "notable" as they never attracted outside attention, research, and thus notability. Most of the data about someone/something is from the person.

BTW - something I have been doing recently is whenever I read a book or anthology I look at the introductions and such to see if they can be mined for things to go in articles. For example, I added this based on an editor's intro. The source is usually the person him/herself but at least it's likely something you won't see on all the web sites, especially for pre-web books. --Marc Kupper|talk 00:29, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Don't worry. I just meant the usual: fixing mistakes, advice. I'll gather information tomorrow, and put it up the day after. Shouldn't be that hard, especially since there is already an article to start with.

Good and logical idea, about those introductions. I guess that's the same information as the short bios they have on publishers' sites. Debresser (talk) 01:03, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi - I was just passing through and saw your comment here. A neat trick when searching for reference material to add to an article is to add the term "-wikipedia" to your search term; e.g. /"david weber" -wikipedia/ (omit the slashes). That means your results will include only pages that contain the term "david weber" and not the term "wikipedia", which at least excludes those sites that admit to ripping off WP :) Gonzonoir (talk) 17:41, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

So far I collected information. I'm working on it. In the meantime I have used parts of it to make small contributions to the following pages:

• Honor Harrington
• Honorverse
• Republic of Haven
• Andermani Empire
• Silesian Confederacy
• Military Science Fiction
• Space warfare in fiction
  Debresser (talk) 21:31, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I've heavily updated, completed and corrected the Published works section, both of David Weber and of Honorverse. The table of books in the Honorverse article, which reflects the Published works section of that same article, is copied in another 8 articles. That is after I deleted it from another two articles where it seemed irrelevant to me. Debresser (talk) 22:25, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I finished writing on the David Weber article. Now let's please have your additions and changes. I have not divided the article into sections. That's the first thing I'd expect somebody to do. Debresser (talk) 18:06, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Reorganization of the Honorverse

I have made the following proposals

1. Add the list of books set in the Honorverse to the Honorverse template. The proposal was made here.
2. Delete the following articles, as they are not notable and are anyway completely covered by other articles as specified:
   1. Chief_of_Naval_Operations_(Honorverse)
   2. Hereditary_President
3. Delete the following categories, as they are examples of wp:overcategorization:
   1. Category:Grayson
   2. Category:People's_Republic/Republic_of_Haven
   3. Category:Spacecraft_in_the_Honorverse
4. Delete the following not-notable redirects:
   1. President's day (Honorverse), which I hope will soon be a redirect to a non-existing article.
   2. Harris Assassination, which redirects to an article that didn't even mention the Harris assassination till I entered one sentence about it. Debresser (talk) 20:20, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

In addition I have proposed to add the Honorverse template to all 18 books that are set in the Honorverse. Debresser (talk) 21:27, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

In addition I have added, changed or deleted a few of the entries in the Honorverse template, as specified here. Debresser (talk) 21:07, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I have added the words "in the Honorverse, a series of military science fiction novels written by David Weber" to the lead section of all Honorverse articles, in one way or the other. Debresser (talk) 21:11, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

As you see, various of my proposals - though not all - have been accepted and implemented.

There are many redirect pages in the Honorverse. In accordance with policy they should be added to appropriate categories. Debresser (talk) 19:44, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I have added the list of books to the template; I have added the template to all articles about books; all as proposed above. Debresser (talk) 12:07, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I have removed all 4 articles from the Category:Planets in the Honorverse. Three of them were already listed in the Category:Nations in the Honorverse and the List of planets in the Honorverse I moved to Category:Honorverse locations. I'll propose deletion of the Category:Planets in the Honorverse, as I think it completely unnecessary alongside Category:Nations in the Honorverse. Compare the Honorverse template which also has a category "Nations", but no category "Planets" (just a list of sectors and a list of planets in a category named "Others"). Debresser (talk) 12:51, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I worked on the redirects. To give them appropriate categories. And in doing so I did a lot of work (!) with internal links (including redlinks). Debresser (talk) 02:57, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

D, Thanks fo ryour note.

We are here enjoined to write brilliant prose, all the while avoiding typos and misspellings (hard in English with its deranged spelling conventions) and following all of WP's multitude of rules and guidelines. And to be civil and yet accept merciless revision of our brilliant prose. Not, I think, something any of us can really achieve. But worth the effort for some.

In the case of the edits to Honorverse articles, I have indeed revised your intro to some sections. Note that boilerplate repetition, in each section, of phrases is mostly less than brilliant. My changes have tried to provide a bit of an increased glint. As for the phrase changes, they are mostly to remove slightly odd English or to improve the cadence here and there. On occasion, I have taken the liberty to add (or change) material which does not correspond with the books/stories. I have also removed or revised speculation on one or two occasions.

You will likely find that quality work, even if it seesm at first blush to be contrary to one or more of those guidelines or rules is welcomed by most editors. Those who don't simply oblige the rest of us to take another pass.

I hope that eases your mind about the edits I've found myself doing for the past few hours. ww (talk) 05:08, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

You did great work, as I wrote you on your talk page as well. You will notice that apart from typos and one small thing I didn't touch you edits. But the first sentences of all articles and sections that are targets of redirects should unequivocally make clear what the article/section is about. That's why I use that repetitive phrase about the "Honorverse" and include the word "fictional". It's always good prose that has to pay the price in an encyclopedia. Debresser (talk) 12:35, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Did some more work on the redirects.

1. Fixed redirects to real-world articles and turned them to their Honorverse counterparts.
2. Some more redirects are up for deletion, see here and here.
3. Redirects are now catelogized (if not trivial alternative names), so you can find them in Category:Honorverse and its subcategories.
4. Redlinks almost all either redirected (when possible) or deleted (if non-notable) Debresser (talk) 10:07, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Added Category:Star Kingdom of Manticore, which has now 61 articles. Added categories where necessary to all Honorverse articles and redirects. Debresser (talk) 15:00, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

You'll see the best mod I can make (to date) to the boilerplate you've been adding to the first sentence or two of all honorverse articles at Treecat. I'm trying form something more glinting then the boilerplate phrases, so far not very brilliantly.

I take your point about redirects not being confusing, but balk at leaden phrasing. Ah well, we'll get something all will like sometime.

On another point, I note that Ukrainian Supermen redirects to a section in another article entitled Sol or something like that. I think this is not viable for two reasons. First, the group in question was not, according to Weber here and there, particularly tied to Ukranians and so is something of an ethnic slur. The baldies just happened to be Ukrainian genengineers and fanatics, but most Ukranians weren't such. Second, we ought not to have such a link (ie, a redirection to a very sparse section of another article). I've been editing here nearly forever it seems, but have resolutely avoided learning much about the mechanics behind the curtains, so I am reduced to asking those who do understand the backstage stuff to turn up the lights and raise/lower the curtains. Can you find a way to remedy this unfortunate redirect/link? Thnx. ww (talk) 15:57, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps it shouldn't have been created. But once it's here there isn't any better place to have it redirect to, bad as it is. Debresser (talk) 00:13, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

In a recent edit summary (at Treecat) you revert some edits I made, asserting that 1) we have discussed this and 2) that it's standard in something like 100 articles and a fait accompli.

As to 1), we have not discussed it to consensus, even between ourselves. When I noticed your edits (including that one) in several articles, I changed a few, and left you a message (above) noting that 'boilerplate' <> 'brilliant prose'. I did not agree, nr do I now. We can come up with a better way to address the issue if it needs to be addressed. As to 2), it is not WP practice (at least en.WP) to let difficulty of redress preclude correction. Perhaps there should be a larger discussion on these points to reach consensus as among more than you and I?

Finally, some of the stories are not military SF (The Stray, A Beautiful Friendship, the story about Helen Zilwicki escaping from Scrags on Old Earth, ...) and at least one of the HH novels is only barely so, being mostly a study of conflict in a conservative society (Flag in Exile, I think -- anyway it's the one in which her shuttle is almost shot down and Burdette is killed in the duel). Another Honorverse novel is also not very military, either, Crown of Slaves. For that matter, Service of the Sword can be seen as not primarily military, rather mostly about frontier conditions in the presence of a corrupt frontier administration. On that reading, the discovery of the Lynx Terminus is merely the macguffin necessary to the plot, and it's mostly a policing story with a large criminal organization or two thrown in for spice. The military science fiction label is, to some extent, inapt though obviously tempting. ww (talk) 23:56, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I really don't think that because of two short stories in the Honorverse anthologies (of which one was written by Linda Evans) we shouldn't use the word "military science fiction" for the whole of the Honorverse works. Debresser (talk) 00:13, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

You do have a point as to some of the main Honorverse novels carrying less of a military character. But then again, that didn't stop Rob H. Bedford from saying "David Weber is one of the giants of modern Military Science Fiction having created the popular and best selling character/series Honor Harrington" in a Official sffworld.com Book Review. So you see I'm in good company, and having a source is very important in Misplaced Pages. Debresser (talk) 00:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I just now noticed that whoever made up the Template:HonorverseBook also categorized them as MSF. Debresser (talk) 11:05, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I've actually looked at your edit contributions re the honorvese and am somewhat shocked at the volume (or maybe it's blinding typing speed). For which effort you are to be congratulated. However, our disagreement about blanket boilerplating of all honorverse articles, and the inappositeness of that Ukrainian Supermen link is not trumped by volume or speed of edit. Consensus is required, if only as an artifact of the ruthless revision warning given all editors. And, as between us, we've not reached any such consensus.

Your reply to my point about Urkanian supermen as a page in the Honorverse category and its inadequate link destination illustrates some of this. That "bad as it is, it should stay" is simply dismissive of another editor's concern. As that's all I've heard from you, I went ahead and changed the link destination leaving a pointer to Supermen (not a good one, and one I hope someone -- you?) can improve to get around the problem I noted. Perhaps you can take a look? And, since you understand more of the scaffolding behind the scenes than I, adjust the Honorverse template page list to delete the reference to a Ukranian Superman article?

On another issue,you reverted at Treecat. There are two problems. First, the missing citations tag had been there for a long time, no one had done much about it (certainly not I as I think such tags in articles about fiction are inherently categorically wrong) and no none had deleted the so noxiously offending article. Nor discussed the vital issue(s) involved on the talk page. Hence, i have come to regard them as simply gratuitous surplusage. Mere tag bombing, simple Wiki-cruft, and not privileged over more considered perspectives. Adn of course the boilerplate issue remains. ww (talk) 19:41, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

It's nice to see you back, and I saw you did a lot of nice little things with a few articles in the Honorverse. Thank you for complementing me on by work for the Honorverse.

As far as the Ukrainian Supermen are concerned. I understand you have a problem with the term "Ukrainian Supermen" as it would imply that all Ukrainians of that time were changed into some type of supermen. First of all, this is just as true as saying that "American women" implies that all women are American. So I actually think that there is nothing wrong with that term. So for me this was no case of "Keep it, bad as it is".

I was quoting you, or at least the sense of your comment.

Apart from that I think I removed that connotation when I placed Ukrainian in front of the internal link (like this: Ukrainian Supermen). Do you agree with me? Or did I perhaps misunderstand you?

The problem is not as your analogy would suggest. It's more parallel to 'American ice-axe murderers'. Unless the 'American' is necessary, it invites invidious extension to all Americans or at least confusion as to meaning. The genengineers were, according to one of the stories, Ukrainian racist fanatics. Their subjects were also Ukrainian I suspect, as they are described as 'Slavic' looking, though that's sloppy and troublesome usage as well as there are a variety of Salvic faces, not merely one type. According to Godwin's law I must now introduce the Hitlerian reduction of the appearance of all Jews to the ugly stereotype used in Nazi propaganda posters. Consider it to have been done by reference. That's why I think the phrase 'Ukranian supermen', however it's broken up and sort of linked, is unfortunate. We should perhaps say something more explicit like "the supermen bred by a bunch of lunatic renegade Ukrainian genengineers". According to the latest (Storm of Shadows as available on line), a very similar theme is likely to dominate the next few novels and stories as Mesa is being revved up as the future baddies. Surely obvious in the last Honor novel, but much more explicit now. Best to avoid unfortunate phrases now, rather than keep them for lack fo something better. 'Better', in this case, being easy to arrange.

The missing page is linked, I think, in one of the Honoverse summary pages. A look at my contribs list of late will turn it up quite promptly. Probably List of regions or something. Anywhere it's where the old link pointed, about which i quibbled in a prior note. I'll have a go at it before I sign off, if my somewhat porous memory manages to retain.... something or other... ww (talk) 00:10, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

There is no reference to "Ukrainian Supermen" in the Honorverse template, see Template:Honorverse. There does exist a redirect from Ukrainian Supermen to List of regions of space in the Honorverse.

As to your changes in the templates of Treecat. This is their common usage and this is what they were designed for. It seems to me that you have been caught up in some in-world - out-world loop, so to speak. Because in the framework of describing fictional work that description needs to be referenced. If you get my point. One other Wikipedian (actually a renomated admin) also expressed his concern about that edit of yours to me, although that didn'tget to me until after I reverted it.

Common usage is not adequate justification for WP content. Consensus is. It was that consensus, albeit a silent one, which led me to regard those tags as Wiki-cruft and to remove them as I noted (in the edit summary?) from the article. I'm innocent of a treecat template, and certainly didn't edit one. The 'loop' ref escapes me, as does the 'mnomated admin' -- do you mean renomimated? In either case, I don't see the relevance. I'm been an admin for a long time, but as I promised in my acceptance note, I've not been a policing sort, remaining concentrated on content and article quality. But it matters not, as I see it. ww (talk) 00:10, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

The "boilerplate issue" remains, but as far as I am concerned it is obvious that doing so is in the interest of the encyclopedical character of these articles, so unless you'd start a discussion about it and consensus would clearly be otherwise, I will try to maintain the status quo in this aspect.

Agree as to boilerplate. Disagree as to status quo as a reason to keep or discard. There is no status quo, given the ruthless editing by others mandate. Resort to such an argument is thus feckless. Consensus amongst interested (as shown by activity) editors is the test, and it varies as I've found to my distress on several occasions. We're stuck with that arrangement, I think, and will just have to cope as best we can. The assorted attempts ot police the Wild West by setting up WP wide policies are becoming more trouble than they are worth as is shown by those editors who have become tag bombers without much thought. Especially the citation needed police. Some cops should just stroll down the street looking neither right nor left as they've no sense of the malleability of acceptable human behavior. One might consider the positions of some political parties in this light....

I don't think it accurate to labele the entire Honorverse as military sf, though a good deal of it certainly is. We need a better rubric; since deleting it on writing quality grounds is unsatisfactory to you (an active and interested editor). My objection to the boilerplate is that it's bad writing and decreases WP quality, regardless of accuracy. You will not that severl of my recent Honorverse edits were of the better English phrasing type, not content changes. ww (talk) 00:10, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Debresser (talk) 20:12, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, I meant renominated.
• The common usage of templates reflects consensus. I'd say this is per definition.
• It has been argued (that may have been you) that some books in the Honorverse series don't have much MSF. Nevertheless, I argued, the two arguments for calling the series as a whole MSF:
  1. There are third party sources that have said so
  2. The absolute majority of the Honorverse series is
• I would like to hear if you have any proposals for a boilerplate that should include all the information of the present one, but sound better in English. I am not a native English speaker, so I understand I might use akward English.
• I really can not see your sensitivity concerning "Ukrainian Supermen" (or "Ameriacan ice-axe murderers" for that matter). Frankly speaking I do not think you or I have a choice in the matter, because the term is used in the Honorverse books. Just like we can't call "treecats" "treedogs" just because we dislike cats and adore dogs, likewise we can not make up any other term for "Ukrainian Supermen" that would sound any better or any worse.

Debresser (talk) 00:39, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

We do have a choice as to how we phrase things and are not corenred by Weber and others fictional constructions, even in describing those creations. This business has been a peculiar one. Like obscenity (in a famous frustrated phrase by US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart), I know an unfortunate phrase when I see one. Making the reason for the unfortunateness explicit is sometimes harder, as in this case. The US Supremes had much trouble doing so in the case of legally defining obscenity, so I'm not alone in my troubles. I'm not, in the following, departing from the canonical use of the term in the various stories and novels.

On the question of templates being by definition consensual, I think you've missed a point or two. The invention of the template mechanism was intended, if I recall correctly, to simply save time and effort. it was welcomed on the basis, or so my impression of reactions at the time was. The content of templates is not sacred nor to be accorded any more protection than any other WP content. So a resort to "the template says it this way" does not settle any difference of opinion. :As for WP:policy <pick one or many>, the situation is similar. They are not Holy Writ and can and have been changed. Some are inherently unworkable for one reason or another, some are perfectly fine save for an awkward codicil here or there, and others are so fundamental that they are not likely to be changed in any of our lifetimes. The demand for citations in the case of article covering the background of fictional universes is one which is logically silly. There is no authoritative reference to cite save the author's output, and that is subject or whim and reversal at any time. And discussion of some items cannot ever be except in terms of the fictional universe and has little or no other than trivial relation to the real world of (WP hopes) citable authoritative sources. That neither of the tags I deleted had been responded to in all the time since they were left by some passing tag bomber suggests that the interested editors didn't give a damn, thus converting their status from an ostensible cry for WP reliability support to mere Wiki-cruft. I leave aside Post-Modernist style constructions of relevance or non-relevance of this or that as inherently without content. WP, its policies, and nearly all of its conventions are not handed down from on High. They are not, almost always, not even enforced by the internal logic of some software somewhere. They are the result of pushing and pulling amongst those who chose to be involved and are subject to review at any time. It is not adequate response to point ot a policy or someone else's opinion as authoritative. WP is not an exercise in Scholasticism. Editors are however, constrained to work within the overarching obligations of civility, good faith, consensus, and ruthless editing of their stuff by others. Comment on anything here? ww (talk) 18:40, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you here. But I don't see any reason in all of this to agree with what you tried to do to those templates in Treecat. I still hold that they were being used in the way intended, and understood by all Wikipedians. Debresser (talk) 21:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

The chief issue about the genengineers in question is that they were True Believing racist fanatics who caused much trouble and death by plowing ahead and doing what they saw as the "right thing" to the exclusion of all other considerations. We have in this world had some extended experience with those of similar True Belief (many terrorists fit this description, and chattel slavery, particularly that based on skin pigmentation, certainly did), and there is a considerable historical record of such things. That the fanatics in the present case were Ukrainian racists is mere accident unless one is prepared to argue that their is something special about Ukranians which leads to this sort of action. Such arguments vere into Hitlerian territory. So absent such arguments, it's misplaced emphasis to have an article on Ukrainian supermen -- the actual supermen didn't have any choice about it as they were the engineered victims and could have been Chinese (save for their creators racist fantasies). To note as a matter of 'historical' fact, that the Final War was started as the result of the machinations of a bunch of Ukrainian racist fanatics who happened to be genengineers is fair enough, I think, but not in an article title which strips out just about all of that information, leaving only unfortunate apparent implications about Ukranians.

So, having brought some of the 'obvious' into view, I again argue that no article with the title Ukrainian Supermen should be present on WP -- at least not as a result of covering a fictional universe.

My earlier suggestion of using more words to make clear the underlying ground, and so avoiding quite plausible misinferences, would work.

Reactions? ww (talk) 17:39, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

So, having brought some of the 'obvious' into view, I again argue that no article with the title Ukrainian Supermen should be present on WP -- at least not as a result of covering a fictional universe. Your implicit thought that it might be an artifact of fluent English writing is, I think, not quite on point. Though not having close acquaintance with other languages' conventions, I don't think I'm really competent to comment. The avoidance of boilerplate is good English writing, though that it not the convention in some other languages in which exact repetition is thought well of. To anticipate your question, I will say that I've spent a moment or two trying to identify an example, and to remember where I ran across this bit of oddity, but can't come up with either. One of David Crystal's works is probably a good guess to the second, though. My earlier suggestion of using more words to make clear the underlying ground, and so avoiding quite plausible misinferences, would work. Reactions? ww (talk) 18:40, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, add more information. But I don't understand: we don't have an article "Ukrainian Superman", just a redirect. Debresser (talk) 21:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

By the way, I have a small question about your last edits to List of Honorverse characters.

I understand how one can have a personal and an official relationship with somebody (like Cachat and Thandi), but how can one be someones personal and official friend (like Rafael Cardones to Honor Harrington)? Debresser (talk) 00:55, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

As I read the novels, Cardones is an official associate (having been an immediate subordinate on several occasions), but also a personal friend, something not true of, for instance, Gregory PaXton, also a former direct subordinate. The same was true of KcKeon, which acounts for the sharp and extended reaction to his death, both by Honor and in the number of pages devoted to describing it. Cachat, on the other hand, has an official relationship (in essence hunting for evidence of Mesan involvement in the Torch assassinations, with Honor's support; he is reporting to her through the ex-countess of the Tor, after all)), but no personal relationship they having met once under somewhat unusual circumstances.

Did I actually claim a personal relationship of any kind between Honor and Thandi? Shouldn't have, if so. ww (talk) 17:39, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Not between Thandi and Honor. I didn't understand why you call Cardones an "official friend" of HH. The words "official" and "friend" don't seem to fit together naturally. Debresser (talk) 21:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Honorverse template

I noticed you changed the Honorverse template. I have two questions.

1. I didn't understand what was wrong with the way it looked before. I understand it's something technical? It seemed to work fine though.
2. The way it was before it looked nice: colorfull, two nice collumns. Could you make it look like an orderly table again?

Debresser (talk) 12:43, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

It can still be colorful, it's just that the way you did it is not appropriate for use with navbar templates. If you wanted a book template, you should have made a second separate one, or made it with the same format as the old one, or integrated it INTO the old one. The old template was collapsable, your change isn't. That defeats the purpose of having a collapsable template. There are many non-collapsable templates, the Honorverse template is not one of them. Plus you've not formatted your table correctly, since it wasn't centered. (unless you meant to do that, in which case, it stylistically looks odd to not be centered)

The fix-up I did was quick and dirty, really, it should be one template, and not two functioning as one, or there should be two separate templates.

• {{Honorverse}}
• {{Honorverse books}}

Your table is also quite large. From my experiences on Misplaced Pages, it probably would have been zapped by some other editor for excessive size even if I didn't change it. Footer templates are supposed to be small. (even though some of them are huge... those seem to draw complaints because they are huge)

76.66.196.229 (talk) 13:40, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I see your point about collapsability. And about being too large as well. I have no problem with the new form you gave it. Just that it didn't look as nice as the second part of the template.

I do not see any problem in having a template made up of two parts, especially since the division in this case comes naturally. Debresser (talk) 13:55, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

What do you say about the way it looks now? Debresser (talk) 14:10, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

It looks ok. I've removed the hanging dots, and removed the extra lines (when making templates, where you start lines and place include , includeonly , noinclude tags can make extra empty lines appear for no reason). There should be no blank line at the end of a template, so I've also removed that. 76.66.196.229 (talk) 14:15, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for removing the dots (that was indeed an oversight of me) and the blank line at the end.

Changing the position of the tags does not make a difference, as in Misplaced Pages a new line is not a new paragraph unless there is a blank line in front of it, but the way I had it before makes the table more easily overseeable when editing it. Not important enough to make another edit though :) Debresser (talk) 14:24, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

It does have an impact if you have multiple nav templates. I've frequently corrected extra blank lines because of misplaced tags. The blank lines appear because they are transcluded. 76.66.196.229 (talk) 06:52, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I meant the whitelines I just added, before the template, so that it shouldn't come too close to the previous text. Have a look now if you like it. Debresser (talk) 11:03, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

It's leaving blank lines right now. Template talk:Honorverse/testcases 76.66.196.229 (talk) 11:14, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I just corrected the extra blank lines before the template issue. (same way I did before, removing the lines between "noinclude" and the start of the template. 76.66.196.229 (talk) 11:17, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I just had a look at Honorverse... Perhaps there should be a whiteline before and after the first part of the template? To make the overall layout look better. What do you say? Debresser (talk) 14:34, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with anon. We should either have two templates, or one bigger one, but standardized. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:22, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

In that case I would be in favor of two templates. Although I would automatically put both of them in every article connected to the Honorverse. But my opinion remains that having two navboxes in one template is no problem. Debresser (talk) 19:29, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

An Honorverse books template could be used on its own on author pages, instead of both templates, which probably should be there. 76.66.196.229 (talk) 06:52, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

But David Weber has written more books than just the Honorverse series. So that wouldn't work, I think. Debresser (talk) 09:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

That would work because you can have multiple nav templates. If they are collapsed, then they don't take up much space. Many authors have a book series nav template on their pages. Aside from Weber, there's also Eric Flint, etc. 76.66.196.229 (talk) 11:10, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

You might want to build template:Honoverse/doc and place the description there, along with {{Documentation}} 76.66.196.229 (talk) 11:20, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Why did you putthat "see also" in the template? Perhaps you didn't notice it's allready there at the end of the second part of the template? Debresser (talk) 12:48, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Now that you mention it, yes I missed it. Though it seems more appropriate on the top half, since it's a real world product, and the article deals with the real world product, and not the in-universe fictional simulator used in the novels from when Honor was commandant. So... which is the more appropriate section? 76.66.196.229 (talk) 12:55, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it is not appropriate for both sections. The first since it's not a book, and the second as you said (see also the talk page of the template). I'd say the second part is the more appropriate. I don't have any real arguments, but I definately dodn't like the "See also" variant. Debresser (talk) 13:12, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

The article itself covers the Jaynes... books. Well, remove it if you want. If the template is split in two, then I think it should be reinserted at that time. 76.66.196.229 (talk) 13:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

What happened to the list of books at the 'List of Honorverse Characters' page?

I figured you might know... What happened to the list of books at the 'List of Honorverse Characters' page? LP-mn (talk) 22:54, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I know. It's now part of the Honorverse template. As all templates, you'll find it at the bottom of the article. For most articles that is where it was anyway, but in this case that's a bit of a move. Debresser (talk) 23:08, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I answered a question of yours here. Debresser (talk) 23:16, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Uh, Noooooo. It's _NOT_ at the bottom of the page. LP-mn (talk) 23:51, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

If you're referring to what I think you're referring to, that table is useless for the needs of the LoHC. The list uses abbreviation for the various books that are not reflected in the table that I _THINK_ you're referring to. LP-mn (talk) 23:54, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

One more thing, is there an "anchor" or some other sort of html-like / wiki-code that I can use to link to the template? You moved it, but you didn't bother to repair _ALL_ the NUMEROUS links to the table.

BTW, is there some sort of an editor that can be used to so some sort of a mass edit that is now needed? LP-mn (talk) 00:04, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure I understand your question. The table was not a template before and therefore there were no links to it. It appeared in 9 pages and all are changed now simply through the template. That was the whole idea of the template. If I misunderstood you, please ask again. Debresser (talk) 00:08, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Since your last message, I've been busy too. Take a look a the LoHC page, you'll see a "===References===" link just before the template. While I've got your attention, please look a the sub-TOC's before the letters 'A' & 'B'. I've just tweaked it from the 'B' to the 'A' appearance. Do you think the new sub-TOC looks good? If yes, then I'll eventually spread it to the other letters. LP-mn (talk) 00:38, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Well... I do not want to sound critical, but...

The sub-TOCs seem redundant to me. There's the TOC on top and everybody knows where to look for it. The list is pretty dense with letters allready without another 26 TOCs.

The "Reference" in front of the template is really out of place IMHO. It is just the Honorverse template. Anybody wants to use it as a reference, go ahead. Debresser (talk) 00:50, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

As for the Sub-TOC's fair enough. I'll delete the four examples that exist so far.

I disagree regarding the "===References===" anchor point. It's needed for people to find the abreviations. LP-mn (talk) 02:38, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

You have a point. But I do not like the solution. Debresser (talk) 03:00, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps, instead of "References" call it "Honorverse template"? Debresser (talk) 03:03, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

That was really not serious, that section "NOT reference". Apart from that, it was just redundant, because just above it there is the TOC with a link to the references. Debresser (talk) 07:35, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Future history

I think future history is not for all sci-fi, only for a part of them that tries to tell fictional history of the future. Thus history of Honorverse or Honorverse timeline would fit, but treecats wouldn't. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:28, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I understand. My idea was not to add all Honorverse articles individually, but to make the Honorverse category as a whole a subcategory of the category future history. That would obviously include all individual articles as well, but as part of the overall work. In such a way I think that could be fitting. Is this how you understood my idea as well? Debresser (talk) 20:40, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but per my rationale above I don't think that Category:Honorverse should be a subcategory of the future history category.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:45, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Coup: lack of time, and honestly, I am very hesistant to edit fiction-related articles on Misplaced Pages anymore. I prefer on Misplaced Pages to contribute to non-fiction articles that I know will be safe and respected, and to for my fiction work, I contribute (occasionally) to other wikis. Perhaps we could reach out to honorverse wiki folks and get them to help in connecting our two wikis with proper links and templates and such? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:24, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

If you don't mind, I'd like to take care of that merge then. I know absolutely nothing about how the work of different wikis might be coordinated. Perhaps you could refer me to some documentation on that subject? Debresser (talk) 21:27, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Please do. I am not sure if we have documentation on that subject. What I consider is good here means ensuring that redirects point to the right section, that that section will have a link to Honorvesrse wiki, that content is synchronized between two wikis and message left on the other wiki asking those editors to take interest in synchronizing content with Misplaced Pages.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:52, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Did the merge. Debresser (talk) 20:24, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Coup de vitesse

When I added it, it was a misformed redirect (look at your last version) and the shortpages monitor was not picking it up as a redirect, you can take or remove it. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:50, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

My user page

{{helpme}}I've started something of a user page. For the fun of it. And so that you might know me better. For to know is to respect (D. de Bresser, that's me).

Could somebody please help me to put the banners one below the other, in stead of in a row? Debresser (talk) 17:53, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

For that you need to go read Help:Userbox. It'll teach you a couple different ways to organise them. Cheers. //roux   17:56, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

{{helpme}} The previous advice tought me how to group banners. But still the groups of banners are not one below the other. And the same thing in the humor-section, where I want the text above the pictures, not next to them. So the question remains the same: how do I force one item of the layout to stay below the previous one even if there is enough place on the sides? Debresser (talk) 18:22, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

You can use <*br style"clear:both"> to clear (remove the asterisk). :) — neuro 18:26, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

{{helpme}} That doesn't do anything... Please, how to force items one below the other? See above for explanation of my problem. And that good advice seems hard to get by. Debresser (talk) 18:34, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

If you're sure it works, go ahead and put it on my userpage. really, I'll be gratefull. Debresser (talk) 18:35, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• You can try asking Roux, he seems to know everything. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • 18:53, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

User page finished

I actually like it. Please come and visit. Bring along your sense of humor too. Debresser (talk) 22:28, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I keep updating it, as I find more banners and other stuff. Debresser (talk) 21:05, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

The Languages of Pao

As I have mentioned elsewhere, this book has had some influence on me. I reread it today. I have never forgotten the central idea of it, called the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, as I found out today while reading the article on the book. It's no more than a stub really, just a large plot summary. This plot summary was actually wrong in a few places, both in factual content as well as in the order of events, not to mention that it didn't mention some events at all. Actually, it still doesn't. But I did change the things that were really wrong. I'd be happy if somebody would turn the article into something nice one day. Debresser (talk) 22:56, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I added a section "Sapir–Whorf hypothesis" with a great reference. Debresser (talk) 12:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Another good SF book covering the subject is Babel 17 by Delany, which you might want to check out.

Thanks for clearing up the sentence i left at military SF - the whole thing certainly seems to be moving in the right direction, and its always good to get new active editors on SF articles!Yobmod (talk) 18:03, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I noticed the Babel 17. It's in the same reference I mentioned before. Thanks. Debresser (talk) 18:07, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I added a short section about euphemisms to the article. I added a line or two about this book in the articles Eunuch and Drowning. Debresser (talk) 00:18, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

And in the article Sapir-Whorf hypothesis as well. Debresser (talk) 20:17, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Jewish Wikipedians

I completely revised the Category:Jewish Wikipedians. Basically that means checking for each individual article (be it a category itself or a template or userbox) whether the categories it possesses put it in its appropriate place in the category tree. And for templates and userboxes that means checking apart from the above also whether it bestows the appropriate categories on the page it is transcluded to. I also reworked some of the category pages. I made my first table (turned out pretty neat, if you ask me).

And of course there are the usual mistakes you walk in to. And the things you didn't know yet. And the mistakes and problems other Wikipedians left for you. Like categories comming along with templates anywhere they go, causing terminological nonsense and the occasional category loop. Well, that's what we learn from.

I hope the category now shows that it was revised by somebody with the head of a Jewish mathematician. :) Debresser (talk) 00:55, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

No problem with the userbox, there was no harm done. Keep up the good work! Fipplet (talk) 12:36, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

This is allready the second time I run into a category that obviously should have been connected to Category:Jewish Wikipedians but isn't. Having a look at it I found a lot of new Jewish templates and userboxes in and around it. Debresser (talk) 01:12, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Took quite some time to add them in the proper way. Including adding categories (both to the templates themselves as well as the categories they bestow upon userpages). Including the introduction of Category:Jewish Wikipedians by religious denomination.

One thing I did throughout is adding the templates themselves (visually) to the approprate category pages. For example: the template Template:User yeshiva can be found both on Category:Jewish education user templates and on Category:Wikipedian Yeshiva students. This took some time. Debresser (talk) 23:12, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

My first userbox: ChabadnikLubavitcher

I just wrote my first userbox. Took a picture of the Lubavitcher Rebbe from that article and used the userbox User:Ashley Y/Userbox/Chareidi, et voila!

I used it in the category Chabad-Lubavitch Wikipedians I created.

I put up a notice at Chabad-Lubavitch (together with a few other remarks), so that potentially interested user will take notice of it. Debresser (talk) 03:32, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Catherine Asaro

Now that I'm finished with working on David Weber and the Honorverse (and please notice that I don't like to write. I'm more the type to do links, standardizing, categories etc.) I want to get started with Catherine Asaro and the Saga of the Skolian Empire. I first improved the article Catherine Asaro itself. That was 2-4 February (I forgot to sign).

Today I saw all Saga of the Skolian Empire articles. They were put together well, both the articles as well as their internal linking.

1. I proposed to merge Saga of the Skolian Empire into the main Catherine Asaro article, as it is no more than an enumeration of the books comprising the Saga, already mentioned in the booklist in the latter.
2. I added and deleted internal links (completely removing 3 redlinked names, adding 2 new redirects).
3. I'd like to return the deleted article Kurj Skolia. Was undeleted upon request today. Debresser (talk) 10:30, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
4. Minor improvements in content and style where needed.
5. Added Category:Saga of the Skolian Empire to 34 non-trivial redirects. Debresser (talk) 23:22, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
6. Fixed all occurancies of "Empire" without capital (as in "Skolian Empire") Debresser (talk) 15:06, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Re: Kurj Skolia. See Misplaced Pages:Deletion_policy#Deletion_review.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:18, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I've completed the abovementioned merge of Saga of the Skolian Empire into the main Catherine Asaro article. Debresser (talk) 20:39, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Test of Template:Yesterday

This is substitution: December 25, 2024

This is transclusion: December 25, 2024

Debresser (talk) 10:48, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Special characters

{{helpme}} Just like & #123; gives {, I would like to know how to make , and '. Where is there a list of these things? I looked, e.g. in Misplaced Pages:Special_character, but didn't find what I am looking for. Debresser (talk) 12:57, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

http://www.degraeve.com/reference/specialcharacters.php --Closedmouth (talk) 13:04, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. Isn't there anything on WIkipedia? Debresser (talk) 13:11, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

If there is, it's well hidden. --Closedmouth (talk) 15:21, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Category clearing

Thanks for clearing the category at Category:Misplaced Pages pages with incorrect protection templates; I've been doing it piecemeal for a while and I greatly appreciate the work you did clearing it. (To get a sense of my appreciation: I typed this message entirely from my iPod Touch :) ) {{Nihiltres|talk|log}} 04:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Re: Template loop

That won't work. The entire template is designed to be substed into the talk page of another user. User:Will Pittenger/templates should be showing it as it would appear on a talk page. Will (Talk - contribs) 20:55, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

No. I don't even know why there is a problem. It was working fine last I knew before you posted. Will (Talk - contribs) 22:08, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Can you do your testing in a sandbox? Once you have it working, go ahead and make the change for real. Thanks. Will (Talk - contribs) 07:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

List of collective nouns by collective term L-Z

Please see Talk:List_of_collective_nouns_by_collective_term_L-Z#Cleanup. Thanks. - SummerPhD (talk) 18:01, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Cite web

In my experience "url" is almost always the first parameter and "title" only second. Debresser (talk) 17:56, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

hello...i'm not sure what you mean. when using cite web: url is part of the title with display after authors, etc. --emerson7 18:02, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

example:

Reynolds, Jerry (1976–1994). "Chapter 30. The North Forty, History of the Santa Clarita Valley". The Signal. Retrieved 2009-03-22.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: date format (link)

The way I most often see them is
Reynolds, Jerry (1976–1994). "Chapter 30. The North Forty, History of the Santa Clarita Valley". The Signal. Retrieved 2009-03-22.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: date format (link)

Debresser (talk) 18:07, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

that's my point. notice that the display order is static. i changed the template examples to match the display order. --emerson7 18:14, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I see. That seems like a bad idea to me. Better put it in the order most commonly used by editors. Debresser (talk) 19:42, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Use of the adminhelp template

Hi. Please use the {{adminhelp}} template when you need admin help on your talkpage. Adding it to that IP's talkpage isn't very useful. If the IP needs to be blocked, please visit WP:AIV. //roux   18:17, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh, OK. By the way, how are you? Debresser (talk) 18:21, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Tickety-boo. Busy with school. //roux   18:26, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Bepege

I have a noitice about your message to me - however I can't find it. If you have a message please leave it on my talk page. I noticed that we have a strange habit of leaving messages to someone in our own talk pages. It is like calling someone and asking them to come to our house to pick up our letter to them, instead of actually mailing that letter. all the best,--bepege (talk) 09:21, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Codexes of Polerio

Is it possible for you to have a look on http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Gcpolerio/Codexes_of_Polerio ... may it become too difficult??? I do not make own investigations (else than to compare a with b etc.)Gcpolerio (talk) 23:49, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Currently I did not put so much efforts on the wording of the initial paragraphs. Rather, I want to see first whether it is possible to organize the games of Polerio according e.g. the ECO code. Please note that these are about 250 games of which currently only 2 are shown. The question what to tell about the Codexes I have postponed mostely. I'm still not sure whether to bring all the 250 games within an enzyclopedia.

Any opinion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gcpolerio (talk • contribs) 06:47, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

You obviously can not bring all 250 of them. That is not notable. You could bring one or two, for example the one that earned the name "Polerio gambit". Debresser (talk) 10:33, 30 March 2009 (UTC)Thx - I've to departure now to London ... I think, as well, that 250 games is too much although ... to summarize them should be done by an enzyclopedia. I think I'll write a google book about it?! This may be linked. You agree.

Polerio Gambit, terminology, is already mentioned on the main page of Giulio Cesare Polerio, thus ... it should be stated something about the Codexes as well. Will think about a sort of selection of relevant/discussed games and contributions to theory by GCP.Gcpolerio (talk) 11:14, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Precisely, something especially noteworthy. Have a nice trip. Debresser (talk) 11:18, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Missing link in reference

Hey, I added in the URL for 2009 Kansas City Chiefs season after forgetting to put it in there in the first place. Thanks for spotting that, I appreciate it. conman33 (. . .talk) 04:43, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Help Request

This article Chiang Kai-shek and Kuomintang and Republic of China frequently Vandalism by anonymous IP address, so I consider these article should be became full-protected or semi-protected for a long time. thank you. 59.105.23.41 (talk) 11:40, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I do not see that much vandalism in these articles. Definitely not enough to justify protection. Not even semi-protection. Debresser (talk) 11:53, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

The Dog Problem (play)

This is an automated message from CorenSearchBot. I have performed a web search with the contents of The Dog Problem (play), and it appears to be very similar to another Misplaced Pages page: The Dog Problem. It is possible that you have accidentally duplicated contents, or made an error while creating the page— you might want to look at the pages and see if that is the case. If you are intentionally moving or duplicating content, please be sure you have followed the procedure at Misplaced Pages:Splitting by acknowledging the duplication of material in edit summary to preserve attribution history.

This message was placed automatically, and it is possible that the bot is confused and found similarity where none actually exists. If that is the case, you can remove the tag from the article and it would be appreciated if you could drop a note on the maintainer's talk page. CorenSearchBot (talk) 13:26, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for catching my mistakes

Hi there. I've noticed you've been fixing quite a few articles, adding reflists whenever I forget to do so myself after adding citations. I appreciate the help. I'll try my best to remember to add them myself in the future, but it's good to know you're on the case Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 22:25, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

My pleasure. Debresser (talk) 22:29, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Same here, keep up the good work. ++ MortimerCat (talk) 00:10, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Daniella Rush

Just a note that IMDB biographies and realnameof.com are not reliable sources. Under WP:BLP, there is a presumption of privacy and pornographic actors use stage names intentionally to conceal their identities. The person who wishes to add the material bears the burden of evidence of proving that it complies with wikipedia policy. I have no intention of promoting the disclosure of names that the subject wishes to keep hidden. Morbidthoughts (talk) 14:32, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

As you can read here, part of the IMDB database is reliable. In this case though, this information is available in many places. You may change to a better ref if you please. Debresser (talk) 14:36, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Simply because gossip is repeated on the internet (over unreliable sources) does not make it verifiable. This information is contentious and was accordingly removed. If you find better sources like say a newspaper or a trade journal, be my guest and put it back in. Otherwise, just leave it out. Morbidthoughts (talk) 14:43, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

1. What is contentious about it?
2. Misplaced Pages:Citing IMDb doesn't say anything about the Biographies on ImDb.
3. I just love those selfrighteous types who make removes without making an effort themselves. Debresser (talk) 14:46, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Knock it off with the personal attack. The issue of porn star real names is contentious because there has been multiple debates about the propriety of their disclosure. Morbidthoughts (talk) 15:04, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I will "knock off" the personal attack, but that doesn't negate my point: that I told you that you are welcome to find better sources.

I can't find the first link, which seems to be archived somewhere. But the discussion in the second link shows clear consensus that we may show the real name of porn stars if it is available (in fair amount, probably) on other sources on the web. This is the case here, so no problem. Debresser (talk) 15:09, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

No, the other sources have to be reliable also! Consult with the BLP noticeboard to get outside opinions on this. As for the reliability of IMDB biographies (which are based on user contributions), see . Morbidthoughts (talk) 15:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

You should move your post on the noticeboard to the bottom of the page if you want more users to notice it; like the instruction says. Morbidthoughts (talk) 16:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

BTW, why isn't realnameof.com reliable? May I point out that there are many degrees in reliable according to Misplaced Pages guidelines. We should be carefull removing sourced information. Debresser (talk) 15:12, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

It relies on user contributions and we have no idea what their verification mechanism is. It does not have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Misplaced Pages policy demands that poorly sourced contentious information is removed immediately from biographies. The person who adds or re-adds the material has the burden of proof on this matter. You haven't provided it. Morbidthoughts (talk) 15:26, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Please stop adding poorly referenced controversial biographical content to articles or any other Misplaced Pages page, as you did at Daniella Rush. Content of this nature could be regarded as defamatory and is in violation of Misplaced Pages policy. If you continue, you will be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. Morbidthoughts (talk) 15:28, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Since I explained in the edit summary of my second and last edit to Daniella Rush that I added sources to support the information I returned, Morbidthoughts should have assumed good faith. Therefore giving me a third level warning - assuming bad faith as stated in Misplaced Pages:User warnings - after only two edits from my side, both made in good faith earns him the warning for not assuming good faith (first level) that I'm about to dump on his talk page. Debresser (talk) 18:11, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

The poor sourcing of a controversial biography assertion deserved a warning and followed the 2nd level warning which was telling you to knock it off with the personal attack. 1st level warnings are reserved for newbies. Not all warnings have to be in template format. If I give you another deserved warning within this short duration, it will be a 4th level warning. Morbidthoughts (talk) 19:48, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree and stick to my opinion that two good faith edits are not enough reason to issue a third level warning. Debresser (talk) 23:16, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Warnings are not just to deter edits made in bad faith. They are also appropriate to deter edits that are made in ignorance of policy. It is ironic that you warned me on not assuming good faith when you did not consider that I followed the policies on biographies of living people and verification. Morbidthoughts (talk) 00:00, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid your are mistaken. Not about the fact that "warnings are not just to deter edits made in bad faith", which is correct. But the specific warning you decided to use here was a level 3 warning, and it says very clearly on Misplaced Pages:User warnings "Level 3 – Assumes bad faith; cease and desist". Using a level 3 warning (=assuming bad faith) in this case was overdoing things and - frankly - a little insulting, in view of my standard of edits on Misplaced Pages in general. Debresser (talk) 00:08, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Yam Templates

Cheers for your help! To be honest I wasn't really sure what I was doing, I have never made templates before, but I needed one to represent my mother tongue and the mother tongue of others. I was muddling through it and wasn't really sure if whta i was doing was right, or where to put them, I appreciate your help! Now I just hope other people use them lol

Jimjom (talk) 14:48, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

The Dog Problem

Hi, regarding this, you might like to read Disambiguation if you have not already. You split the original article into two with (film) or (play) on the end, and tagged the original article for deletion. If I had deleted it as requested, any reader typing "The Dog Problem" into the search bar would not have been taken straight to an article. That's not very user-friendly, which is why we have disambiguation options. There were two possible options here - either making The Dog Problem into a disambiguation page that said "The Dog Problem could refer to: the play or the film", but that would only be suitable if there was no "primary topic". As the incoming links related to the film, it seemed that the film was the primary topic, so it made sense to make the play into a hatnote. I hope this has explained disambiguation and my actions, and if you have any questions, please ask. Thanks, Somno (talk) 08:31, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that is a clear and good explanation. The Disambiguation guidelines page I am well acquainted with. Giving it a second thought, the best thing would probably be to move the film to The Dog Problem (film) and keep the original The Dog Problem as a redirect to that page. I think that would be the ultimate in disambiguation for two articles without a primary topic. Debresser (talk) 11:48, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Re: References

Sorry I don't have them. I copied it from the article Black_Cat_Bar#Police_harassment. -- Frap (talk) 13:29, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Vilina Vlas

The external link you deleted may have been to a promotional website but nevertheless it contains relevant background information and illustrations. Opbeith (talk) 15:42, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I take your word for it and I'll put it back in a way that will not cause any technical trouble as before. Thanks. Debresser (talk) 20:36, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. It's controversial, because the spa seems to operate in a context of denial of the past, but nevertheless I think on balance it's more useful to have the link rather than not, unless it causes direct offence. Opbeith (talk) 20:44, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

IP talk comment

"Please be informed that I am not interested in other edits of your here, but something's sticky here, so you'd better keep quite." From User talk:81.105.125.242. Could you please clarify to both of us what you meant there? Perhaps more civilly? The user came into the Misplaced Pages Help IRC room asking what that meant. S/he explained to me the events surrounding his edits, and he was making good faith'd edits, but is a newbie and didn't realized that removing {{reflist}} removed all the links. He was just trying to remove one of them. Killiondude (talk) 22:58, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Ironic. I regularly work on a few categories of problematic articles, like Category:Misplaced Pages pages with broken references. There I see a lot of edits like the three edits of User talk:81.105.125.242, e.g. removing the references, external links, or just the whole thing starting from the references and ending with the categories. In I'd say 90% of the cases I just give a standard warning, and don't add any "personal commentary". In this case I did, and I remember thinking: "if this would turn out to be a good faith user" - which I didn't think at the moment - "then this would earn me a user warning for newbies biting". I can only say in my defense that 1. the edits he made did make the impression of repeated vandalism, and 2. that I rarely add anything to the standarised user warning, and 3. that yesterday was a hot and tiring day for me. I'll appologise on his user page. Debresser (talk) 20:11, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I've had "hot and tiring" days in the past where I've left similar remarks, so it is understandable. Thank you for taking the time to explain and apologize to the user :-) Killiondude (talk) 20:51, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Least wanted categories

I finally got around to doing something about your request: User:Pascal666/cats --Pascal 09:18, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I hope to be able to start working on it in another week or so, maybe earlier. Debresser (talk) 17:51, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Removed incorrect protection template

Hello Debresser. This is the second time I've notice you remove a perfectly good protection template from a page I've protected. The previous time was this. Could you please either be more specific, or preferably, fix it instead. Thanks. -- zzuuzz 21:32, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I found this page in Category:Misplaced Pages pages with incorrect protection templates. Whenever I find a page there, I have 2 options: try a null-edit to see if the problem disappears, or just remove the template. After trying the first a few times with no result, and also in view of the sometimes high number of pages in this category, I usually opt for the second. I did receive 1 complaint before, but in general this works fine. I hope you understand, and agree. Debresser (talk) 21:51, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

BTW, how do you explain that I found this page in Category:Misplaced Pages pages with incorrect protection templates?

I notice Tupac Shakur just had the same problem. That category must be lagging a lot. Do you not see the red textbox when you edit the page? Through experience I can tell you just about the most reliable way to do this is by working with a browser where you are not logged in. Sometimes protection templates are added just before the protection. That would explain the presence in the category, sort of. -- zzuuzz 21:59, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Could be. BTW, does it really matter that I removed the text? The protection is still in place, after all, and the history shows what happened. Debresser (talk) 22:03, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

The protection icon, or the big protection template, are there to inform readers both of the protection status and what it means. They also add categories. -- zzuuzz 22:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I see. Thanks. Debresser (talk) 22:16, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

For example, today I null-edited all 19 pages I found. That helped in precisely 0 of them. Debresser (talk) 13:23, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the lag is quite persistent. Having thought some more about your question immediately above, it may be worth asking if it really matters if the icon is not removed. The templates no longer display on unprotected pages, and there is at least one bot which will clean them up eventually. -- zzuuzz 00:19, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

But one thing your are mistaken about: the template is not what adds the protection icon, because there is no protection icon on ll the pages I remove the templates from. Only in rare exceptions is there a protection icon, and I guess those are the articles you wrote me about. Debresser (talk) 19:55, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed it was. The icon is displayed if both the template and the protection are in place. If there is no protection, there is no icon. Thus removing an incorrect protection template has no effect, whereas removing a correct one does. -- zzuuzz 20:44, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Precisely. Therefore I should really try a null-edit whenever I see a protection icon.

I don't know about a bot cleaning out this category, because when I started, there were over 180 pages here, which means at least 5 days of no cleaning out. Debresser (talk) 20:51, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

User:DumbBOT runs fairly regularly. There is another bot which also does this but I can never remember its name. -- zzuuzz 21:17, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Portal:Seoul

I've deleted the subpages that were causing the loops. Hope everything goes well for your portal! Nyttend (talk) 15:01, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

It's not my portal. :) The person who's portal it is doesn't understand the least about template loops, obviously. But I do try to be helpfull wherever I can. Debresser (talk) 15:47, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Stop!

Removing or stopping me from editing the article on the Nova Scotian Settlers. First of all, the sources do no match the information I wrote in the article.

Some of the sections are inaccurate...these are the ones I removed.

The 'sources' do not match the information. I created the article and now that I wish to edit it fully, I am being stopped? The sources and references do not add up...stop trying to prohibit me from editing the article correctly....

--Wikiaddict6989 (talk) 01:16, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I saw your reaction on my talk page. Please let me explain. The edits I reverted (which were almost the same as reverted previously by another user) did two things:

They removed some of the references, the references section, the bibliography and the external links; They added a few small paragraphs of relevant information. Just add the information, and nobody will have a problem with it. Of course, you should preferably add sources, or the information you add may be challenged. Debresser (talk) 18:12, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

(copied from user talk page)

The sources have nothing to do with the information provided. This is why I am removing the sources. All the information I got was from one site, but due to the fact another editor was removing my information, I took some random sources and implemented them, and I had planned on putting in the correct source-the only one I used which is the Black Loyalist CDC site.

--Wikiaddict6989 (talk) 04:57, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I'll have a look. Debresser (talk) 10:24, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I checked your claim, and I have found it to be wrong. I checked some 6 references and I found all of them covering the information in the article. In two cases they covered information that was placed a sentence or half a sentence before, so I moved them up to their rightfull place.

In conclusion I must ask you to refrain from reverting these references. If you have anything to say about this article, do so without removing sourced information, or you'll have to face the consequences.

Wishing you pleasant editing, Debresser (talk) 01:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Re: awful

There are some users, including that, that are targeting articiles on fictional entities. Sometimes they are justified, sometimes they are not. I think that the best course of action is this one. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:37, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

An article you worked on maybe deleted soon: Tools which can help you

The article you worked on: Honorverse_concepts_and_terminology may be deleted from Misplaced Pages.

There is an ongoing debate about whether your article should be deleted here:

• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Honorverse_concepts_and_terminology.

The faster you respond on this page, the better chance the article you worked on can be saved.

There are several tools and helpful editors on Misplaced Pages who can help you:

1. List the page on Article Rescue Squadron. You can get help listing your page on the Article Rescue Squadron talk page.

2. At any time, you can ask any administrator to move your article to a special page. (Called userfication)

3. You can request a mentor to help you: Misplaced Pages:Adopt-a-User. But don't wait for a mentor to respond to you before responding on the article for deletion page.

4. When trying to delete a page, veteran editors love to use a lot of rule acronyms. These acronyms don't need to intimidate you. Here is a list of acronyms you can use yourself: Deletion debate acronyms, which will help you argue that the article should be kept.

If the page you worked on is deleted, you also have many options available. Good luck! Ikip (talk) 16:43, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Invitation

Hello, Ww. You have been invited to join the Article Rescue Squadron, a collaborative effort to rescue articles from deletion if they can be improved through regular editing. For more information, please visit the project page, where you can >> join << and help rescue articles tagged for deletion and rescue. Ikip (talk) 16:49, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I thought with all your noble work saving fictional articles, you maybe interested in this group. Ikip (talk) 16:49, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

The problem is more conceptional. Instead of saving single articles I think we should work on making a counterproposal against Wikipedia_talk:Notability#Notability_is_not_inherited: Notability is inherited. We should also use Misplaced Pages:Notability/RFC:compromise as basis for arguments and proposals. Perhaps I'll have time next week. Debresser (talk) 11:09, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree, there is ongoing arguments about this now, at WT:FICT and a major RfC just closed. There simply is not the overwhelming support needed to overturn these guidelines yet. So we are stuck with a bad and broken system, were every article needs to be saved individually. By joining the ARS you gain a group of over 200 editors who are sympathetic to our concerns. Ikip (talk) 13:41, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I respectfully decline, mainly because I don't have the time for it. I will work on the "big" problem sometime soon, to the best of my limited abilities. Debresser (talk) 14:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Deleting articles about elements of fiction

Re. your comment that I am "one of those who delete fictional articles". On the contrary, I brought both TIE fighter and Mon Calamari cruiser up to GA status, and have worked quite a bit in the Star Trek and Star Wars wikiprojects to remove cruft and provide real-world information about notable topics, most recently making substantial improvements to James T. Kirk, Spock and Leonard H. McCoy. I am, however, a stickler for notability. Regardless: you may have noticed on one of the honorverse talk pages that Piotr-something pointed out the existence of an Honorverse wikia project, which might be an appropriate place for you and other Honorverse fans to migrate Misplaced Pages content. For the various redirects I'm putting up, I'll leave the Honorverse related categories so they'll show up in Category:Honorverse and the subcats, so you can keep track of what is/should/has been migrated. Regardless, though, the claim that I broadly delete fictional articles is as uninformed as the assertion that "about 50%" of Misplaced Pages editors oppose deletion of fictional topics. It is foolish -- or, at least, useless -- to try to paint either me or our fellow editors with such broad brush strokes. --EEMIV (talk) 20:48, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok. I take back what I said about you personally. That was just the impression I got. Sorry.

But the other statement is backed up by facts. See my arguments here. Debresser (talk) 21:03, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I've seen your arguments there and elsewhre and done my best to point you toward policies and guidelines that point toward a substantial need to cut back, or remove entirely, the cruft that has infiltrated the Honorverse content as Misplaced Pages. I can see on your talk page that you are an enthusiastic fan of the series -- but much of the content takes an inappropriate tone toward Weber's work. (see WP:WAF). I'd encourage you to start migrating your work to , because frankly per WP:GNG, WP:RS, WP:PLOT, WP:IINFO, the rich details and minutiae of the Honorverse books, while a fun read, simply don't warrant the depth and breadth of coverage that Misplaced Pages currently has. It's for things like Star Wars, Star Trek, Halo, the Honorverse, etc. that http://starwars.wikia.com, http://www.memory-alpha.org, http://halo.wikia.com, http://honorverse.wikia.com, etc. exist -- very little of the window dressing, texture, and detail in those fictional universes have garnered significant third-party coverage, making much of that stuff inappropriate for Misplaced Pages. --EEMIV (talk) 21:10, 12 April 2009 (UTC) (If you care to respond, you do not need to put a talkback banner on my talk page; I have yours watchlisted.)

Ok. You may have noticed that many of your edits (cutting cruft, as you call it), and your redirects (of other navies that had not specifically been discussed), I have not challenged. That is because I agree with you. But I do try to maintain a core of information here on Misplaced Pages, that should contain all the main information. Where I think you harm this core, or meddle with (even potentially) real-world relevant information, that's where I protest. So I too am only in favor of improvement. Debresser (talk) 21:18, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Please take some time to read WP:NOT (particularly WP:NOT#IINFO) and WP:ATD -- the latter of which reads, in part, "Some articles do not belong on Misplaced Pages, but fit one of the Wikimedia sister projects" (e.g. wikia.com). You seem to have trouble differentiating between topics that matter in-universe (like the Office of State Security) and topics that matter out-of-universe (the books themselves, the protagonist, the author). The general notability guidelines is a key way of distinguishing between the two -- and very little in the Honorverse passes WP:GNG muster. Hate to say it, but no one in the real world has been influenced by or cares about StateSec enough to make it the subject of significant third-party coverage or commentary; it is a non-notable topic. Frankly, the various governments and groups to which I've redirected those Navy articles probably don't pass WP:GNG, either -- but, I figure with fewer separate Honorverse articles to deal with, the more the Honorverse fans can focus their source-finding/-citing. Piotr's idea of migrating the material to the Honorverse wikia is an appropriate suggestion -- it's perfectly fine to link articles that get retained at Misplaced Pages to the Honorverse wikia counterpart or follow-up. However, if your perspective is that migration to a sister project is de facto deletion, then you will have very little success participating in any of Misplaced Pages's fiction-related wikiprojects. --EEMIV (talk) 21:32, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I would agree to migration for certain articles. Again, not core articles. Let me have a look again tomorrow. It is now after 0 AM here, Ive worked and lectured today. And slept for less than 2 hours. I'm sure a 7-8 hour "Wikibreak" will be benificial to the discussion. Perhaps you make up a proposal which articles should really be migrated in the mean time. Debresser (talk) 21:36, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I'll say even more. As you can see above I've done a lot of work on the Honorverse articles, but except for the article about David Weber this was mostly technical and/or structural improvements. And the reason I refrained from sriously editing the Honorverse articles was, because I also noticed a lot of redundant information in these articles, and that it would be too much work to locate the sources for all the relevant parts. My reluctance to take on that project is now biting me in the posterior. Debresser (talk) 11:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Talkback

--Marc Kupper|talk 21:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

AfD: List of ships in the Honorverse

Hi, I edited your comment to conform with the usual style used. Hope you don't mind. regards, LK (talk) 14:12, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I do mind. For a few reasons:

1. The word "agree" expresses not only that I think the article should be deleted, but also that I agree with the nominators reasons.
2. It expresses my feeling precisely the way I want to expres them, and I see no real reason to change that because of a convention (unlike in article namespace, where we should adhere to the Manual of Style).

No hard feelings. Debresser (talk) 14:23, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Judaism

I sourced two statements in the article Judaism that another editor had deleted. In the process it turned out that one of them was not completely correct. Debresser (talk) 15:07, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the edit

I just put up my first article (on James Price Dillard)for a class project. Thank you for editing the references to be more concise. You are a big help! Feel free to "talk" at me if you have any more suggestions to make it better. - CommScholar09 —Preceding unsigned comment added by CommScholar09 (talk • contribs) 00:41, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Template

Just as a matter of interest, Debresser, what's wrong with all those "incorrect templates" you removed? Fainites scribs 00:56, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Which ones? Debresser (talk) 01:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry. The one on Dyadic developmental psychotherapy - but I noticed you'd removed quite a few so I assumed there must be some fatal flaw! Fainites scribs 01:10, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

The page showed up in Category:Misplaced Pages pages with incorrect protection templates, which meansthe template was wrongly added (or expired). So I removed it, and that fixed the problem.

The thing is that protection is added by two thing: the template and an admin action. Without both, we get an error. Debresser (talk) 01:16, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh. It was put there by an admin because of repeated sock action on the page. I'll check with them. Fainites scribs 07:30, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Clean up complete

Thanks a lot for helping out! It's a nice feeling to see an empty category. Now let's hope we can keep it trimmed down! Oh, and by the way... Sillyfolkboy (talk) 01:25, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

		The Half Barnstar
		I, Sillyfolkboy, hereby award the right half of a barnstar to Debresser, for his co-operation with emptying out the "Misplaced Pages pages with broken references" category. Excellent work and thanks for the support! Sillyfolkboy (talk) 01:25, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Did you award yourself with the other half? If not, let me know and I'll take care of it. :) Debresser (talk) 01:27, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it would a bit self-serving to give myself the other half! After all, why shouldn't giving the barnstar be a collaborative effort too? (courtesy link). Sillyfolkboy (talk) 01:40, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! I suppose we both have the right half as there isn't a wrong half. Ho ho ho. Take care. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 01:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

thanks for the help

Thanks for fixing the citation on Order of Canada, I dont yet understand the new footnote methods. Dowew (talk) 01:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Why in the world are you warning User:Shirulashem?

This edit, which you said could get Shirulashem blocked, was made by Kolm H (talk · contribs). Dougweller (talk) 19:31, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

That's the one I meant. See what happens when you edit with a drunken head? Debresser (talk) 19:37, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Changed it. Sorry. Debresser (talk) 19:42, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Template:Ref New Haven Power‎

Next time you mark a page for speedy deletion, you may wish to consider notifying the editor who created the page (in this case ME). The template you so marked is used by substitution, and once properly placed into an article, no longer has a "broken reference". Wuhwuzdat (talk) 21:24, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

...in addition "nocontent" is NOT a valid criteria for speedy deletion of a TEMPLATE. Wuhwuzdat (talk) 21:32, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

For discussion see Template talk:Ref New Haven Power. Debresser (talk) 21:34, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

April 2009

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would like to remind you not to attack other editors, as you did on Template talk:Ref New Haven Power. Please comment on the contributions and not the contributors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. see diff here: specifically the edit summary Wuhwuzdat (talk) 21:38, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

You judge for yourself. An editor makes a template in order not to have to type a reference every time he uses it. I called him the laziest editor I've met on Misplaced Pages so far. :))) Debresser (talk) 21:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Regarding your comments on User talk:Debresser: Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks will lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. see this diff Wuhwuzdat (talk) 21:50, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Please do not attack other editors, which you did here: Template talk:Ref New Haven Power. If you continue, you will be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. see edit summary of this diff: Wuhwuzdat (talk) 21:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Please have a look at Misplaced Pages:Dick, thank you. Debresser (talk) 21:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

This is the last warning you will receive for your disruptive comments.
If you continue to make personal attacks on other people as you did at User talk:Debresser, you will be blocked for disruption. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Wuhwuzdat (talk) 21:57, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Did you have that look? Debresser (talk) 22:01, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

See here. Wuhwuzdat (talk) 22:09, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Debresser (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

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Since I see nobody is unblocking me, let me be clear about this:

I was fixing templates. That's what I would still be doing if not this block. I called Wuhwuzdat lazy. And refered him to Misplaced Pages:Dick. Even though at least one admin has expressed his opinion that he disagrees with me (by blocking me), I still think this was completely true and correct. Even though Wuhwuzdat seems to take offense to this, I think that this is just another expression of his being a dick. I wouldn't have made a point out of this though, if not that he kept warning me. I was actually busy fixing templates. Frankly, I hope he'll be a happy dick now, and leave me to my wikignoming. Debresser (talk) 22:53, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

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