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Perhaps this article is more aptly named Moses of Chorene's History of Armenia? The article has paragraph or two about the author and the rest of it is about the book he wrote and its impact.

Or Perhaps we should create an article about the book, copy the text here about the book into that new article and reference it here?

Dating

I changed this a bit because the new version could not necessarily be inferred from Thomson's statement. I'm no great expert here and I need to get my hands on more books, but as far as I see it we need to determine whether:

• Moses was an historical person (probably of the 5th century) but the history written in his name was "fathered" on him by later author(s) unknown (I've seen the date for the history given variously as the 8th or 9th centuries but I can't give references)
• Moses didn't exist at all and his biography was also part of the fabrication of the history's authorship
• or there was a Moses of Chorene, who was the author of the history, but he lived after the 7th century

I don't have the sources to sort this out at the moment. If anybody can get hold of them, it would be a help. I'd just like to say though that I'm glad to see someone is taking a more scholarly approach to this and other Armenian historical articles. Cheers. --Folantin 09:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying, but I believe this is a bit similar to the Homeric question. Except that he has a whole bunch of works attributed to him, and for each the question will be, is it authentic. I believe that "Moses of Chorene" is the author of the History more or less by definition, and if that work dates to the 7th century, we will be right to say that Moses lived in the 7th century (even if Moses is a pen-name). But I agree we need more sources on this. dab (𒁳) 09:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I've read a bit about the academic controversy over his dating/existence but I can't remember the exact details. When I added the Thomson quotation, the article here was a straight copy-and-paste of the Catholic Encyclopaedia entry (from c.1913). They were beginning to become aware of the doubts over the traditional attribution back then, but obviously a lot has happened since in the debate. I slashed quite a bit of the entry, but I didn't know how far to go. Obviously, better sourcing will fix this. I hope to get my hands on the French translation (1993) some time this year, so that might help resolve matters. Those who don't believe he was from the 5th century give various dates so I'm not sure we can just say 7th century. In fact, I think the 9th century is a pretty popular guess (though I can't provide references). We'll probably have to describe the scholarly debate rather than coming down for one date or another. I think we should just leave its as something like "considerably later than the 5th century" for now. --Folantin 09:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

One more name change

I really don't know what Misplaced Pages's (English-language) policy is on this but I'm considering to move this article once more to Movses Khorenatsi to reflect the correct transliteration of the historian's name. We have several other articles that are like this (Kirakos Gandzaketsi, Stepanos Taronetsi, Movses Kaghankatvatsi, etc.) so unless anyone has some concerns, we can move it to Movses Khorenatsi.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 01:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm fine with both transliterations (ex. Gregory of Narek, Anania Shirakatsi). If we're going to make either universal, wouldn't we also have to move articles on monarchs like Tiridates I of Armenia to Trdat I? Hakob (talk) 08:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so. The "of Armenia" part is mainly to differentiate them from the Parthian kings of the same names. I don't think we have to really extend this to those other articles either, only those which have suffix "tsi", identifying from where they were from. I guess the closest thing we can compare this to is the Leonardo da Vinci article, since his name just means "Leonardo from/of Vinci."--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The "correct" (unambiguous) transliteration would be Movsēs Xorenac‘i. But we have the policy of using the name most common in English language usage, which is clearly Moses of Chorene. Article should be moved back.

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL 774/245

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL 801/58

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL 287/75

try to avoid moving articles around without consensus and without being aware of Misplaced Pages naming conventions. --dab (𒁳) 15:09, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Assyrian

« so that they themselves learn the Greek and Assyrian languages » : « Assyrian language » redirects to « Akkadian language », dead since 100 AD. Don't you think that this « Assyrian » is in fact « Syriac », useful for understanding the Gospels (Tatian…) ?

--Budelberger (talk) 18:08, 10 November 2008 (UTC) (). (And please, correct the « of of » !)

That's indeed true. Should you ever come upon something that can be quite easily be fixed, as in this case, be bold and by all means, make the necessary changes.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 02:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

No, I can't :

• « of of » : I can't modify a 9 046 Bytes page for those small three Bytes ! (My computer is very old and small ; I don't want the Wikimedia computers overflowed too !)
• « Assyrian » : I can't, because this information is sourced (from Gagik Sarkisyan, n. 6) ; what wrote Sarkisyan and, if « Assyrian », what is « Assyrian » for him, I don't know. Who has this book ? You, who know Armenian ?

Budelberger (talk) 10:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC) (). (P.-S. : Do you know Armenian ? Can you help me in hy.Misplaced Pages ? I need a « Merge » template (they haven't) ; can you create it ?)

Perhaps you should purchase a Dell? :)

The reason the source says Assyrian is actually due to the fact that Syriac in Armenian is translated as "Asoreren" (Ասորերեն). I didn't know that it would be go to a different redirect and I'll fix the disambig.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:37, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Western scholars

I don't understand why did MarshallBagramyan remove the sources that I quoted? Most notable experts in this field doubt that Movses actually lived in the 5th century. Their opinion must be presented too.--Grandmaster 04:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

RGS's article is next to useless and tells us nothing we don't already know. Furthermore, scholars outside of Armenia reject the hypercritical approach of Toumanoff and Thomson also (Vrej Nersissian, a very authoritative individual and the Curator of the Christian Middle East Section at the British Library, has published multiple reviews over the past 30 years on this topic). We have an updated source, with five editors, telling us that their approach and opinions are pretty much invalidated. That you think it is appropriate to insert the word "some" is disingenous and is clear weasal wording.

Besides, it's rather strange that scholars who can't even speak (modern) or barely read classical Armenian (such as Hewsen) are really being given this undue weight just because they publish outside of Armenia.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 04:58, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Robert H. Hewsen, Cyril Toumanoff and Robert Thompson are among the leading western experts on Armenia. Their opinion is notable, and cannot be suppressed or rejected, like it is done in this article. It is not an undue weight, their opinion must be presented alongside with that of the scholars in Armenia. --Grandmaster 05:04, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Here are some sources. Hewsen:

This Primary History has come to us in two redactions, a long and a short. The shorter version is attributed to the earliest known Armenian historian, Agathangelos (fourth century A.D.?) and is presented in the opening section of a seventh-century work ascribed – probably wrongly – to a certain bishop named Sebeos. The longer version, much expanded and edited, is contained in Book One of the compilation of Armenian antiquities known as the History of Armenia by Pseudo-Moses of Khoren. While the date of this work has been much disputed, it appears now to be a product of the late eighth or early ninth century.

2. For the short redaction, translated into French under the title "Le Pseudo-Agathange: histoire ancienne de l'Armenie," see V. Langlois, Collection des historiens anciens et modemes de lilrmtnie (2 vols.: 1869-80), 1: 195-200; for the long version, published under the title "Mar Apas Catina: histoire ancienne de l'Armenie," see ibid., pp. 18-53, and also the first book of "Moise de Chorene," ibid., 2:53-78.
3. G. Abgarian, "Remarques sur l'histoire de Sebeos," Revue des etudes armeniennes, 1 (1964), pp. 203-15, where it is demonstrated that the real author of this work was probably the monk Khosrovik.
4. C. Toumanoff, "On the Date of Pseudo-Moses of Chorene," Handes Amsorya (Dec. 1961), pp. 468-76.

Hewsen, Robert H. The Primary History of Armenia: An Examination of the Validity of an Immemorially Transmitted Historical Tradition. History in Africa, Vol. 2., 1975, pp. 91-100.

Thompson:

The History of Armenia by Movses Khorenatsi (Moses of Khoren) is the most comprehensive work in early Armenian historiography, but also the most controversial. Movses claims to have been a pupil of Mashtots's, and he ends his work with a long lament on the evil days that befell Armenia following the deaths of Mashtots and of the patriarch Sahak and the abolition of the Arsacid monarchy (which had occurred earlier, in 428). On the other hand, there are indications in the book itself that it was written after the fifth century. Not only does Movses use sources not available in Armenian at that time, he refers to persons and places attested only in the sixth or seventh centuries. Furthermore, he alters many of his Armenian sources in a tendentious manner in order to extol his patrons, the Bagratuni family, who gained preeminence in the eighth century. But despite the fact that Movses Khorenatsi is not known or quoted by sources before the tenth century, he became revered in tradition as the "father of history, patmahayr," and elaborate legends about his life, his other writings, and his association with Mashtots's other pupils gained credence after the year 1000.

Richard G. Hovannisian. The Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times: The Dynastic Periods: From Antiquity to the Fourteenth Century. St. Martin's Press, 1997

ISBN 0312101686, 9780312101688. Chapter 9. Robert Thomson. Armenian Literary Culture through the 11th Century.

Britannica:

Moses of Khoren – author known as the father of Armenian literature. Traditionally believed to have lived in the 5th century, Moses has also been dated as late as the 9th century. Nothing is known of his life apart from alleged autobiographical details contained in the History of Armenia, which bears his name as author. His claims to have been the disciple of Isaac the Great (Sahak) and Mesrop Mashtots, to have studied in Edessa and Alexandria after the Council of Edessa (431), and to have been commissioned to write his History by the governor Sahak Bagratuni, have been rejected by most serious scholars, in large part because of anachronisms in his text. His work, however, is a valuable record of earlier religious tradition in pre-Christian Armenia.

Grandmaster 05:10, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, looking at your edit, how is this not weasel wording, and how this wording that you included can be considered neutral:

Up until the mid-twentieth century, many scholars doubted that Movses wrote the work in the fifth century due to historical inconsistencies, addressed him as "Pseudo-Movses", and moved him and the History to the seventh to ninth centuries. Stepan Malkhasyants, an Armenian philologist and expert of classical Armenian literature, likened this period to a "competition, " whereby one scholar attempted to outperform the other in their criticism of Movses. Although these views have now been discredited and "much of this criticism has been rejected," there are still those who believe that Movses is not the true author of the work.

You say that "Up until the mid-twentieth century, many scholars doubted that Movses wrote the work in the fifth century", however you can see that many modern publications, including even Britannica doubt that Movses actually wrote his work in the 5th century. And the last line which attempts to present the opinion of one person as a fact is not in line with NPOV, and again uses weasel wording (there are still those who believe that Movses is not the true author of the work). Grandmaster 05:21, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, this work by Ronald Grigor Suny that you removed from the article provides interesting information about the dispute over Khorenatsi:

Ronald Grigor Suny. Constructing Primordialism: Old Histories for New Nations. The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 73, No. 4 (Dec., 2001), pp. 862—896

I don't think that you should be simply removing the opinions that you disagree with. All notable opinions must be presented.--Grandmaster 05:25, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

My understanding is that mainstream scholarly opinion believes that the history ascribed to Movses dates from (much) later than the 5th century. Another reference: " There are indications that the book itself was written after the 5th century. Not only does Movses use sources not available in Armenia at that time, he refers to persons and places attested only in the sixth or seventh centuries." Robert K. Thomson, "Armenian Literary Culture through the Eleventh Century", in R.G. Hovahanissian (ed.), Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times(Volume 1, 2004). --Folantin (talk) 08:07, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Well we have a very reliable source published in 2000 with five editors which says that the mainstream opinion is that we was from the 5th century so...--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

So is my understanding. I provided the full context of the source that you cite. Please see above. I believe all the existing scholarly opinions should be presented equally, as per WP:NPOV. Grandmaster 11:58, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

There are two possibilities: There was a Movses Khorenatsi in the 5th century, and the History is pseudepigraphical and attributed to Movses a century or two after his death, or Movses is in fact the author of the History, but he did live one or two centuries later than the traditional date. As far as I can see, the two possibilities are effectively equivalent for all practical purposes. --dab (𒁳) 14:55, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

And both possibilities are present in the article. Nevertheless, unless you guys actually know what the critcism that Thomson et al. are presenting, don't just simply regurgitate sources. The exact opposite can be done and we can go on forever. Unless you are aware of the nitty-gritty of the actual debate and have read the reviews and the books, slavishly quoting them is not going to cut it. And Dbachmann, if it's not too much to ask, go read Malkhasyants' biography before you question his reliability. I know you like to scan and root out nationalism but please, there are limits to everything.

I added Cyril Toumanoff as a source because he presents his arguments against the 5th century dating far more better than Hewsen does.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The credibility tag was added blindly and without any reason. "...criticize it heavily as a historical source" was also added from who knows where when all the relevant material is regarding inaccuracies in the timeframe but not the source material itself. The ten or so Artaxias' frontier stones with Aramaic based inscriptions found around Lake Sevan were only mentioned by Khorenatsi and no other source, this alone attests to the remarkable value of this source. It's obvious that new material was added in later centuries because various personas and events from those centuries are mentioned but it doesn't reflect on the accuracy of the content nor deny the possibility of multiple authorship in the course of several centuries. Dbachmann, you really oughta recuse yourself from all Armenian related articles, even if it's just reverting ararat_arev socks. This is not the first time when you have made all-encompassing changes seemingly resulting from bad faith.-- Ευπάτωρ 18:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Another source:

Moses Khorenats'i occupies a special place in Armenian national tradition, as the first author to attempt a connected account of the country's history from Urartian times up to his own purported life-time-namely the fifth century A.D. Since Moses was in fact a writer of the eighth century or thereabouts, he could easily have continued his narrative for another three hundred years, but this would have exposed his own literary deception, making nonsense of his claim to be a disciple of St Mesrop Mashtots, the inventor of the Armenian alphabet.

The reassignment of Moses Khorenats'i from the fifth to the eighth century was mooted as early as the 1890's by A. Carriere; Professor C. Toumanoff summarizes the evidence in the journal Handes Amsorya, Vol. 75, 1961, cols. 467-76. Few if any scholars outside Soviet Armenia continue to defend the old fifth century dating, though in Erevan the venerable chronicler's discredited account of himself is still upheld with patriotic zeal.

David M. Lang. Reviewed work(s): "Moses Khorenats'i": History of the Armenians by Robert W. Thomson. Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 42, No. 3 (1979), pp. 574-575

Grandmaster 20:06, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

ok, enough with this nonsense. The entire "biography" is unverifiable to anyone without access to Soviet-era Armenian literature. When I see a reference to details of Movses' biography, I do not want to see an obscure reference like "Sargsyan, Gagik. «Մովսես Խորենացի» (Movses Khorenatsi). Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia, 1982, pp. 40-41". I want to be informed which medieval source this information is due to, or at the very least I want some academic English language reference. Movses is easily important enough to find coverage outside 1980s Soviet encyclopedias. --dab (𒁳) 14:11, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the hyping of stale Soviet Armenian criticism into a living "controversy". If there is any Armenian author criticizing the mainstream date today, let's see a post-1991 reference. Anything dating to between 1960 and 1991 should be subsumed in a brief "and there was much grumbling in Soviet Armenia". Thanks to to MarshallBagramyan for giving us a brief taste of what was the talk of Erevan historians back in the 1980s, but this is 2009. --dab (𒁳) 14:35, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Who gives a damn if it's unaccessible to you? It's accessible to plenty of people and it's a verifiable published source. That's all that is needed. If you can provide published criticism of any of the references than we can talk otherwise cease disrupting this article with your saber-rattling and unencylopedic edits.-- Ευπάτωρ 16:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Please heed Eupator's advice and recuse yourself from this and other Armenian related articles Dbachmann. I, as well as Eupator, are as much as opponents against the distortion of facts, even if its done by Armenian historians, as you but the overzealous and extremist nature of your edits to disregard the opinions of then Soviet scholars has surpassed bad faith. I don't believe you have a full grasp of what the debate is on and insulting reputable scholars who have published in international journals by throwing around the word "Soviet" as if it's a curse word is unacceptable. It was originally scholars like Sargsyan, Malkhasyants, and Abeghyan who blazed the trail in the study of Armenian literature, with objectivity in mind and access to the manuscripts of the Matenadaran, and western scholars have undoubtedly benefited from their work as a mere glance at the bibliographies will prove.

The opinions of western scholars should be present but quoting them like parrots without offering any explanations and then going on to conduct unilateral, shamelessly POV mass scale edits and slanting the article clearly in the bias of the western scholars' opinions violates the basic tenets of Misplaced Pages policy. As much as I like DML, he is not an authority on the subject, did not know classical Armenian nor did he conduct any studies in the matter. Intentionally ignoring authoritative sources like Sargsyan and Malkhasyants just because they worked in the Soviet Union and lived in Armenia is not reason enough to reserve preferential treatment for others.

It's unfortunate that you are unable to speak Armenian nor Russian but this article was not created for you; for those people who want to learn more about Movses, they're going to have to consult sources in foreign languages. I will try to find updated references to Movses in additional journals but you have clearly erred in your reckless witch hunt to snuff out nationalism --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 16:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

See WP:VUE on "Non-English sources":

Because this is the English Misplaced Pages, editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source has been used correctly. Where editors translate a direct quote, they should quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Misplaced Pages editors.

--Folantin (talk) 16:15, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, but that's just a recommended guideline. Far from an enforced piece of rule. I'm more than open to reducing the number of non-English citations and replacing them with something from Google books or elsewhere in English. You can highlight sentences and passages that are referenced by non-English sources and that you would like to see replaced here and we can work from there. In any event, Dbachmann's boldness is unacceptable.-- Ευπάτωρ 16:42, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree that Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia is a very mysterious source that is used in many articles here, but which no one outside of Armenia can verify, as it is written in Armenian. Considering that Great Soviet Encyclopedia is not considered a reliable source on most topics, I don't think any other Soviet encyclopedia should be considered a reliable source. Grandmaster 20:15, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

That logic makes absolutely no sense. The SAE is not some inaccessible source with obscure publishing origins. Even Robert Hewsen boasts about his collection in his Armenia: A Historical Atlas. I wish I could access some of the sources regarding the Serbian related articles but I don't read Serbian nor have access to their scholarly literature. But that's not enough for me to call for their removal (something about good faith?). We're not trying to seriously prove that Stalin did not enact the Great Terror here. But as of yet, Dbachmann's insulting language (bordering on racism) against Soviet Armenian historians, to say nothing of his unilateral, ill-faith, shamelessly POV edits, have not gotten us anywhere. Additional reverts should be discouraged.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 03:36, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The entire "biography" is unverifiable to anyone without access to Soviet-era Armenian literature. That's of course not true. When I wrote the article in French, I used for the biographic part:

• Claude Mutafian (dir.), Arménie, la magie de l'écrit, Somogy, Paris, 2007, ISBN 978-2-7572-0057-5
• Moïse de Khorène (trad. Annie et Jean-Pierre Mahé), Histoire de l'Arménie, coll. « L'aube des peuples », Gallimard, Paris, 1993, ISBN 2-07-072904-4
• Agop Jack Hacikyan (dir.), The Heritage of Armenian Literature, vol. II : From the Sixth to the Eighteenth Century, Wayne State University, Détroit, 2002, ISBN 0-8143-3023-1

Sardur (talk) 21:30, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

• I don't think that Soviet sources should be rejected altogether, but they should be used with care, especially sources like Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia. We all know that such publications were written as part of the Soviet propaganda campaign. I think that Western sources generally are more preferable. As for rvs, I would like to remind Marshal that he is under 1 rv per week restriction, which he violated more than once within the last couple of days. Next time I will have to report the violation to WP:AE, so please do not rv this article during the next 7 days. Grandmaster 04:46, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Please see below some excerpts from a source from around the same time as Malkhasyants, i.e. 1940. It explains in more detail the criticism of early dating of Movses, including some of the sources mentioned in the article.

Even though he (Khorenatsi) is not the earliest of Armenian historians (assuming for the moment that wrote late in the fifth century), yet he has been called the father of Armenian historians, the Armenian Herodotus. He has been referred to by all writers during at least ten centuries as the Grammarian, a word which in its Armenian original signifies the most learned among writers of history.

3 The first attempt to write a history of Armenia was made by Agathangelos, the Greek secretary to King Tiridates (387-442 A.D.), in his History of King Tiridates, originally written in Greek. The second writer, Faustus of Byzantium, who wrote a History of Armenia covering 344-392 A.D., was probably also a Greek.

4 Though it has been assumed that he wrote in the fifth century, yet the earliest reference to his work is made by John Catholicos in his History of Armenia, a work written in the third decade of the tenth century.

Very little is known about this unique character, and that little has come down to us through his History. Therein (Book III, chapt. 60) we are told that he was a disciple of Fathers Sahag and Mesrob, the two learned men who originated the Armenian alphabet (in 412 A. D.), that they sent him to Edessa, Alexandria, Byzantium and Athens to study (III 62), and that at the time of the composition of his History he was an old and infirm man, preoccupied with works of translation (III 65). Since his History concludes with the year 440 A. D., it was naturally supposed that he wrote after the middle of the fifth century. This supposition was at first generally accepted, the prevalent belief being that it was written some time between 460 and 480. The validity of this date was for a while accepted even by one (the late Alfred von Gutschmid of the University of Leipzig) who subsequently proved to be the severest critic of our author.5 Such was, and to a large extent still is, the traditional view about the life and the work of Moses of Khoren which was accepted by the Armenians. It is this traditional and unquestioned view that has been subjected to much severe criticism during the course of the past hundred years. The object of this paper is to summarize and evaluate such criticism.

In the seventies of the last century Alfred von Gutschmid brought to bear all the weight of his scholarship and concluded that the Hlistory was written not in the years 460-480 (as he once had supposed), but between the years 634 and 642. His most weighty argument was confirmed by Moses of Khoren's anachronistic passages, such as his reference to the division of Armenia Major into four provinces (which division took place in 536), and his reference to the Persian advance in Bithynia (which point the Persians first reached in 609). The Nestor of Leipzig was not only the first noted authority to expose convincingly the most serious defects of the History, but he also remains as the first to emphasize the fact that Moses of Khoren, assuming that he wrote in the fifth century, was sadly lacking in contemporary historical knowledge.

In 1892 the late Auguste Carriere of the Ecole des Langues Orientales Vivantes (Paris) carried the study of our author's History a step further and came out with another startling exposure. His studies not only convinced him that the History was a work of the eighth century but also that its celebrated author liberally used sources to which he makes no reference at all. Thus in addition, Moses of Khoren was accused of plagiarism. According to Carriere the two works which Moses of Khoren used freely were the Life of Silvester and the Ecclesiastical History of Sokrates. The former was available in the Armenian translation no earlier than the year 690, and the latter in 696. Here, therefore, "was proof, short and peremptory," that Moses of Khoren's History was at best a work of the eighth century.

This sort of argument was exploited to the full by the late G. Khalathianz of the Lazarev Institute (Moscow). In his monumental study, The Armenian Epic, he examined Moses of Khoren's History and concluded that our author copied not only from works already indicated by Carriere but also from those of Sebeos (an Armenian writer of the seventh century), Faustus of Byzantium, and specially from Ghevont (Leontius) the Elder. And as the work of the last named writer was ready only in the year 790, Moses of Khoren must have written some time after that date, probably early in the ninth century."

A. O. Sarkissian. On the Authenticity of Moses of Khoren's History. Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 60, No. 1 (Mar., 1940), pp. 73-81

This paper also provides some counter arguments in support of 5th century dating, but overall conclusion is that it was not possible to make a definite conclusion about the dating of this scholar. Since then not much changed, most leading western scholars date this author much later than the 5th century, while the scholars in Armenia insist that he was a 5th century scholar. Grandmaster 05:17, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I've read Sarkissian's article before and the last paragraphs show how outdated the article really is; if we're not even talk about Movses' dating, Khalatyants' and Carriere's arguments that the History of Armenia has no historical value is rejected by every scholar, Armenian and Western (i.e., see Robert Hewsen's article in the Armenian Review, 1985). And no, actual leading scholars on Movses, such as Malkhasyants, Gagik Sargsyan, Babken Harutyunyan, to name a few, (Toumanoff is not an expert in classical Armenian, neither is DML) agree that Movses was a scholar of the fifth century. Them having to write their opinions in Armenia is a moot and absolutely irrelevant point. We should all stop bringing up the location of these scholars as if they really played role in formulating their opinions.

And my second revert was in response to Dbachmann's ill-faith edits. We're not restricted from reverting an article that is mutilated to such a degree that he subjected it to. I have just taken a look at Aram Topchyan's book (Peeters, 2006) and it provides some especially interesting information on sources published after 1991 and a general evaluation on on the validity of the criticism directed at Movses. Assuming the tidal wave recedes, and there are no more Dbachmann-like edits which only deliberately serve to provoke other users, I will add the relevant information within the coming days. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 05:33, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

First, how do we know that Malkhasyants, Gagik Sargsyan, Babken Harutyunyan are leading scholars on Movses? Who says that those people are leading, and all the western armenologists are not? In the light of nationalistic attacks on the western scholars in Armenia, such as those described here: I would prefer the opinion of impartial experts on the topic. This is from the document called "Declaration of the Chair of Armenian History at the State University of Yerevan about the basic tendencies of American Armenology".

Several American "armenologists", without taking into account the difficult and dangerous situation prevailing at present for Armenia and the Armenian people, with their "analyses" and "conclusions" have thrown water on the mill of Turkish and Azerbaijani pseudo-historians and leaders (Nina Garsoïan, James Russell, Ronald Suny, Robert Thomson, Levon Avdoyan, Robert Hewsen and others). Those persons of "objective" learning, but in reality led by principles of political opportunism have begun, surprising as it may be, even on the issue of the Armenian Genocide to gradually subscribe to and to propagate points-of-view which bow to Turkey.

When the Chair of Armenian History makes such bad faith attacks on respected international scholars, it is hard to except objectivity from them. And here some Armenian historians accuse the prominent western armenologists of deliberately falsifying the history of Armenia by the order of the US State Department! It looks like many historians in Armenia are motivated by patriotism, rather than objectivity, support conspiracy theories and not capable of dealing with criticism.

As for your editing restrictions, you can make only 1 rv per week, except obvious vandalism. The edits that you reverted were not vandalism. So please be careful. --Grandmaster 06:18, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

lol

GM, had you read the response of the Chair of Armenian History, Babken Harutyunyan, to the declaration, you would know that it was done without his foreknowledge and when he was out of the country see here. Furthermore, it was pushed by a minority group and we all know the actions of a few do not represent the beliefs of their colleagues. Yes, unfortunately Ayvazyan's study goes too far in its looney conclusions but the mistakes it points out are perfectly factual and its unfortunate that a proper general survey of the works of American scholars has yet to be conducted.

I give far greater credence to the scholars like Sargsyan and Harutyunyan because they had nothing better to do but to literally spent all their days at the Matenadran, reading one manuscript after another, analyzing one line of text after another. Sargsyan has published at least two books just dedicated to MK and his work has been commended by non-Armenian scholars. Malkhasyants himself spent over 65 years dedicated to the study of classical Armenian literature. Thomson aside, Toumanoff never carried out such studies (nor even bothered to learn classical Armenian), Hewsen's knowledge of it is rather negligible, and DML certainly did not. I'm simply advising others to simply take a breath and cease pushing their agendas so blindly.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:57, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

But that's just your personal opinion, isn't it? Which reliable source considers those people, unknown outside of Armenia, to be better experts on the topic, than professors in Western universities? As for Aivazian, that guy is just a historical revisionist, and his criticism cannot be taken seriously. This is from his interview:

- Во-первых, независимое армянское государство не было кратковременным явлением. Если мы даже не будем углубляться в еще более древние времена, а возьмем только царства Хайасы, Урарту, Ервандидов, Арташесидов и Аршакуни, то армянская государственность к моменту падения Аршакуни в 428 г. имела почти двухтысячелетнюю историю с непрерывным функционированием важнейших государственных институтов.

Independent Armenian state was not a short time event. Even if we don't delve into more ancient times, and take only the states of Hayasa, Urartu, Yervandid, Artashesid and Arshakuni, the Armenian statehood by the time of the fall of Arshakuni in 428 had almost 2-thoushand year history with functioning of the most important state institutions.

Typical revisionist concept of Armenian history, described by Shnirelman, Kohl and others. It is a general knowledge that Urartu and Khayasa were not Armenian states, and his attacks on the Western scholars are motivated by the fact that they do not support these revisionist concepts. And I find it strange that a small group of people can publish such declarations without the knowledge of the chair. Typical Soviet policy, when the leader does not express his opinion until the last moment, when he sees who's winning. In sum, we need to establish the notability of the scholars you consider to be the most authoritative on the topic. Who considers those people to be the top authority on this subject? --Grandmaster 06:16, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

You can read a part of Aivazian's work in English here: It is quite interesting that in the opening credits he thanks Babken Harutyunyan. Grandmaster 07:04, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

This is from Ronald Grigor Suny:

While from one angle historical writing in Soviet Armenia can be seen as part of a general marxisant narrative of progress upward from class and imperial oppression to socialist liberation, in the post-Stalin years scholars promoted insistently national themes. Occasionally the regime would discipline the bolder voices, but Soviet Armenian historians waged an effective guerrilla war against denationalization of their history. The story of the republic of Armenia was told as a story of ethnic Armenians, with the Azerbaijanis and Kurds largely left out, just as the histories of neighboring republics were reproduced as narratives of the titular nationalities. Because the first "civilization" within the territory of the Soviet Union was considered to have been the Urartian, located in historic Armenia, the ancient roots of Armenian history were planted in the first millennium B.C. Urartian sites and objects of material culture were featured prominently in museums, and late in the Soviet period Erevantsis celebrated the 2700th anniversary of the founding of their city (originally the Urartian Erebuni or Arin Berd). Although the link between Urartu and Armenians took hold in the popular mind, most scholars believe Urartu to have been a distinct pre-Armenian culture and language and, following Herodotus, argue that the original proto-Armenians were probably a Thraco-Phryian branch of the Indo-European-speaking tribes. Nevertheless, a revisionist school of historians in the 1980s proposed that, rather than being migrants into the region, Armenians were the aboriginal inhabitants, identified with the region Hayasa in northern Armenia. For them Armenians have lived continuously on the Armenian plateau since the fourth millennium B.C., and Urartu was an Armenian state. A rather esoteric controversy over ethnogenesis soon became a weapon in the cultural wars with Azerbaijan, as Azerbaijani scholars tried to establish a pre-Turkic (earlier than the eleventh century) origin for their nation.

The nationalist thrust of Soviet Armenian historiography extended into a fierce critique of foreign historians who attempted to question sacred assumptions in the canonical version of Armenian history. The holder of the chair in Armenian studies at Harvard University, Robert Thomson, had the temerity to assert that Movses Khorenatsi, whom Armenian historians had claimed as a fifth-century author, was actually an eighth-century writer with a clear political agenda that served his dynastic master. He went on to call him "an audacious, and mendacious, faker." "A mystifier of the first order," Movses "quotes sources at second hand as if he had read the original; he invents archives to lend the credence of the written word to oral tradition or to his own inventions; he rewrites Armenian history in a completely fictitious manner, as in his adaptations of Josephus.... Whoever Moses was, he was not only learned but clever. His protestations of strict methodology were intended to deceive, to divert critical attention, and to encourage acceptance of his own tendentious narrative." Soviet Armenian scholars bitterly attacked Thomson's dating of Khorenatsi and his characterization of the author. In a sense, a foreigner had tampered with the soul of the nation.

A young historian in post-Soviet Armenia, Armen Aivazian, begins his critical review of American historiography on his country by declaring, "Armenian history is the inviolable strategic reserve of Armenia." His views, hailed by his countrymen, provide a window into the particular form of historical reconstruction of Armenian identity and historical imagination that dominates post-Soviet Armenian historiography. His tone is militant and polemical, for his self-appointed task is to defend Armenia from its historiographical enemies. "From the point of view of Armenia's national (internal, civil, and foreign, international) security," he tells his readers, "in its consequences Western pseudo-Armenology is more harmful and dangerous than Turkish-Azerbaijani historiographical falsification because this is the real basis of the propaganda carried out on an international scale against the interests of Armenia and is also a constituent part of that propaganda."

Ronald Grigor Suny. Constructing Primordialism: Old Histories for New Nations. The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 73, No. 4 (Dec., 2001), pp. 862—896

Grandmaster 13:38, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

we need to establish the notability of the scholars : very easy, with Mutafian and Mahé. Sardur (talk) 10:31, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Mathematician turned historian Claude Mutafian is not more authoritative than the chair of Armenian studies in Harvard Robert Thompson, or professors Robert Hewsen, Cyrill Toumanoff, encyclopedia Britannica, etc. I read Mutafian's book "The Caucasian Knot" and was not really impressed, it is a typical propaganda type publication. I'm not saying that his opinion should be excluded, but I think that the mainstream view should be presented as well. At present the article claims the fifth century dating as a fact, and ignores the fact that most of Western experts reject this dating. Grandmaster 13:38, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

In 1828, a French scholar, J. St Martin, who had visited Van in 1823, began to grope towards an explanation by connecting these texts with the garbled legends preserved by an Armenian chronicler, (Moses Khorenatsi), probably of the eighth century AD, according to whom the region was invaded from Assyria by a great army under its queen Semiramis who built a wondrous fortified city, citadel, and palaces at Van itself beside the lake. With this was linked a romantic myth concerning her love for a beautiful semi-divine youth named Ara, a figure of the type of the 'dying god'. It is clear that by the time of Moses of Khorene all other memory of this kingdom, once the deadly rival of Assyria itself, had been forgotten and remained so, except for these popular legends.

John Boardman, I. E. S. Edwards, Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond, E. Sollberger. The Cambridge ancient history. Cambridge University Press, 1982. ISBN 0521224969, 9780521224963, p. 314

Grandmaster 14:04, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

In any case Mutafian is the editor. The relevant chapter is written by Aram Toptchyan. Sardur (talk) 11:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

enough

Grandmaster (talk · contribs) has heaped up enough references now. If Marshal Bagramyan or Eupator want to defend their opinion that the question isn't settled, let them cite an academic, peer-reviewed reference post-dating 1991 (i.e. post-dating the Soviet Union). This isn't too much to ask. WP:CITE isn't optional.

Is this understood, Marshal? No more polemics about "ill-faith, shamelessly POV edits". Own up with decent references, or shut up. If you present a decent reference, I will defend its inclusion. As long as you don't, I will oppose your attempts at insinuating a "controversy" based on stale, 30-years-old patriotism. The entire comedy of Soviet Armenian Armenologists referenced above should be covered at Armenian studies. It is interesting that The nationalist thrust of Soviet Armenian historiography extended into a fierce critique of foreign historians who attempted to question sacred assumptions in the canonical version of Armenian history, but this is 20th century history, while this article is supposed to deal with an 8th century work of historiography. This isn't armeniapedia, so please spare us the naive patriotism. If you want to write an {{in-universe}} article, may I suggest editing here. --dab (𒁳) 15:01, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I suggest that you calm down and use the discussion page to gain consensus. As for Grandmaster and his generous contributions of completely irrelevant references that appear to assist you in attaining a hard on, lets just say that he's wielding an axe greater than Mjöllnir to grind. Now drop the condescending bullshit and wikilawyering and get this through your head. I'm not disputing any content whatsoever, neither is Marshal as far as I can tell. My objection concerns your butchering of the article by way of removing sourced material (and images and templates as well now) and the insane amount of undue weight applied to certain sections. Since when are we giving so much credence to tertiary sources? That last part is not only condescending, it's quite xenophobic. Tread lightly!-- Ευπάτωρ 17:12, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

What the hell are you railing on about? Dismissing all your critics as lackeys of nationalism reeks of the blind fanaticism that you claim to be opposing. I am not opposed to inserting the opinions of Toumanoff and Thomson in this article but you have shown a remarkable lapse in reasoning in criticizing historians from Armenia simply because they have a different opinion and clear ignorance on what the actual debate between the historians actually is about. I asked everyone to refrain from making controversial edits and to discuss everything but apparently this concept is far too difficult for some to comprehend. No one agreed on a page move and yet you did that without achieving consensus either.

If you have such a hard on for stamping out nationalism, go police the articles on the Armenian Genocide, which run smack against all the standards of scholarship. If you continue on this path without achieving consensus, I'll be more than happy to lodge a complaint about your petty insults and your impulsive behavior to violently lash out against anyone who is not accepting your POV by creating this inhospitable atmosphere for editors. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:12, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

He merged the two articles unilaterally (sans consensus again) which is why I didn't revert. It might fall under improrer use of admin tools, he's been already admonished by arbcom for that once before.-- Ευπάτωρ 18:30, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think stating that this chronicler lived in the 5th century as a fact and stubbornly reverting to that version is productive. I provided tons of reliable sources, top international experts on Armenian history, which date Movses to a much later historical period. Ignoring them and pretending that they don't even exist will not help resolve the dispute. You must admit that there's no consensus in the scholarly community to date this person to the 5th century, and that such early dating is not largely supported outside of Armenia. --Grandmaster 19:26, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

True, but stubbornly edit-warring and insulting others by resorting to ethnic slurs and racism is not acceptable either. The attempts to paint all Armenian scholars with the same brush have been quite unprofessional on your part GM. As Eupator wrote above and which everyone else has ignored or is even unaware, the primary reason some scholars date to Movses to the 8th century hinges solely on his alleged references to events which took place after the fifth century. But this is not a open and shut case; because Movses' original manuscript has not reached us, it was not uncommon to have scribes writing in later centuries to add material which the original author did not include. Thomson nor Toumanoff are not immune to criticism and if Dbachmann did not resort to blind reverts without achieving consensus, we wouldn't be in this mess. I've asked nicely numerous times before from everyone to discuss their edits and all I have received is POV-driven, childish, emotion-laden insults from Dbachmann. Please maintain good faith and the section on dating and criticism will be duly improved. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:57, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I never painted all Armenian scholars with the same brush, if you noticed, I even referred to some of them. I only ask to present all existing views on the subject fairly, and not suppress the alternative opinions on the dating of this person. Rejecting well-known Western scholars, alleging that they are incompetent, while presenting some obscure historians from Armenia as the only trustworthy experts on the subject is really no good, and violates WP:NPOV. The late dating of Movses is the mainstream view outside of Armenia, trying to deny it after so many sources have been presented is absolutely unacceptable. We must present all the existing opinions, and not just one, according to their weight. I think the intro should be worded similar to that in the article in Britannica, i.e. the person is traditionally believed to have lived in the 5th century, but modern scholars provide various dates for his life time, some as late as the 9th century. Grandmaster 21:19, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Grandmaster is being disingenuous mildly put because I have stated numerous times that I personally do not hold any position regarding the dating controversy and I do no dispute either point of view. Neither one of us have denied that the traditional dating is upheld primarily in Armenia. My intention is to display all points of view accordingly and not to resort to all encompassing changes unilaterally.-- Ευπάτωρ 21:24, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

But why then did you revert any attempts to include alternative dating in the intro, and the main text? I did not edit this article much, just trying to reach a consensus, but all I see is that the info on the late dating is being suppressed. If you want to display all points of view, you should have no problems with doing so. Grandmaster 21:31, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Because that was hardly what was done, entire chunks of info were removed, undue weight was applied etc. Following which I offered to make any additional changes after discussing them here first, but that was promptly ignored. Your flooding of the discussion page with all sorts of irrelevant quotes certainly didn't help firestart any sort of a meaningful discussion sans demagoguery.-- Ευπάτωρ 21:39, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think anything I quoted here was irrelevant to the discussion. I quoted the best international experts on this topic, and you quoted no reliable sources in support of your position. Grandmaster 05:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

What is my position exactly? -- Ευπάτωρ 00:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Judging by your previous posts and reverts, you are supporting the 5th century dating. I may be wrong by assuming that, but so far your actions only allow to make this conclusion. There's nothing wrong with supporting a certain position, but the article should reflect all existing scholarly points of view. I think it is possible to make this article neutral, and the original version of the article was terrible. In its original form it attacked Thompson for supporting a certain position, claimed that his arguments were proved wrong, etc. It was really not in line with WP:NPOV. Grandmaster 05:01, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

That's a very poor judgement to say the least. I provided my motives several times for supporting the original version before Dab engaged in his usual disruptive behaviour and they had nothing to do with supporting either position. The original article did present all existing views in a balanced manner unlike the current one. Put the two next to eachother and you can clearly see how much information was removed, not to mention how the formatting was screwed up. And all of this done unilaterally followed by stubborn edit warring. In addition, the criticism directed against Thomson was attributed and not presented as divine truth like you make it seem so there is no justification for suppressing it.-- Ευπάτωρ 14:01, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

as was to be expected, our Armenian patriots resorted to dodging the issues and personal attacks instead of the requested sources. As long as they refuse to submit to the project goals and rules, there is nothing to discuss here. "Tread lightly" indeed, Eupator. If I was into screaming WP:CIVIL upon being attacked, you could be in trouble even now for your sexual innuendo and general misbehaviour. Now would be a good time to cite a recent (post-1991!) academic source establishing that there is an ongoing "controversy", as I requested. If you cannot do that, you would do well to step down and stop shooting the messenger. It is ridiculous to accuse Grandmaster of " flooding of the discussion page with all sorts of irrelevant quotes" when his sources were perfectly academic and perfectly to the point. So if you don't have any sources to support your position, any sources you don't happen to like are "flooding the discussion", eh? Grandmaster has established that this entire dating "controversy" belongs under historiography and nationalism. It is not a serious academic discussion. There can be a section on "In Armenian nationalism" in this artilce. We can address that as soon as you stop disrupting article improvement based on nothing but WP:IDHT. --dab (𒁳) 06:56, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Can't you read ? Mahé (1993) and Mutafian (2007). Sardur (talk) 11:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Delirium and sever crud. Dbachmann, that would only highlight your racist commentary, persistent edit warring (at least three reverts) and disruptive behaviour such as the deletion of templates (infobox with the image, the historians template) as a result of a missguided belief that the project is better off without them among other things. Even Grandmaster (who incidentally set you upon this page) was only interested in applying changes to the intro regarding the alternative dating while your modifications over which you're edit warring totally mutilated a fully sourced, comprehensible article and turned it into a garbled, poorly formatted mess. It's high time to involve other parties here in order to further expose your shenanigans because celarly you're not interested in article improvement and judging by your blind reverts you're not interested in compromise either. Once again, I take no position regarding the dating issue. Your attempt to paint me as someone who is attempting to push a particular pov is utterly ridiculous and baseless.-- Ευπάτωρ 00:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

merge

in light of the statement in Britannica that "Nothing is known of his life apart from alleged autobiographical details contained in this work", this article should just become an "author" section in the History of Armenia (Movses Khorenatsi) article. --dab (𒁳) 14:18, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I think this author deserves a dedicated article, as he is considered an author of more than one work (as far as I know some other works are also attributed to him, though I might be wrong), and is considered the father of the Armenian historiography. Plus, the controversy surrounding his persona also deserves a presentation in a separate article, which should be the one about himself. Grandmaster 15:53, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

the absense of interwiki links at the History article is conspicuous. I think the article on "Moses of Chorene" is usually in fact the article on his History. We can merge the two articles under this title, no problem. The claim that other works are attributed to him is shaky: such claims as we had here were completely unreferenced and Britannica states plainly that nothing is known about him other than what he states in his History. --dab (𒁳) 14:56, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Sarkissian says the same:

Very little is known about this unique character, and that little has come down to us through his History.

The full quote is available above. I think it is possible to merge the article on History into this one, since the History is the only source of info about this person. Grandmaster 21:22, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Moses is the persona of the author of the History. Historical scholarship solidly considers this pseudepigraphy. In Armenian patriotism, Moses is regarded as a historical character. Either way, he is a character described in the History and should be discussed as such. All serious encyclopedias discuss the Moses of Chorene biography together with the History, and state openly that the Moses biography is incompatible with the origin of the work itself. For crying out loud, even the 1915(!) Catholic Encyclopedia has

The author of the "History of Armenia Major" calls himself Moses of Chorene and pretends to belong to the fifth century, to be a disciple of Saint Mesrop, and to have composed his work at the request of Isaac (Sahak), the Bagratunid prince who fell in battle in 482. These personal statements are shown to be untrustworthy for internal and external reasons. In his account of his own life the author contradicts such fifth-century writers as Koriun and Lazarus of Pharp.

And the 1911(!) Britannica has

the author of the History of Armenia is not the venerable translator of the 5th century, but some Armenian writing under his name during the years between 634 and 642. The proof is furnished on the one hand by the geographical and ethnographical nomenclature of a later period and similar anachronisms, which run through the whole book and are often closely incorporated with the narrative itself, and on the other hand by the identity of the author of the History with that of Geography, a point on which all doubt is excluded by a number of individual affinities, not to speak of the similarity in geographical terminology. The critical decision as to the authorship of the Geography must settle the question for the History also.

by presenting this as "controversial" is going back before the standard of scholarship as of the 1910s. Way to go for an encyclopedia project of the 2000s, but after all "anyone can edit" includes those of us with our heads stuck firmly in 19th century nationalist fantasy. --dab (𒁳) 07:19, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the fifth century dating has been questioned for more than 100 years now. Trying to ignore the mainstream view on the subject and even to suppress it is against the rules. The Geography is now ascribed to Anania Shirakatsi, however back in the 19th - early 20th century it was thought to be written by Moses of Chorene. This translation by Kerope Patkanov from 1877 says that the Geography is believed to be the work of Moses of Chorene: However, Patkanov himself questioned the authorship of the Geography by Moses of Chorene. Haroutunian, who is quoted here as a source in support of 5th century dating of Moses, still insists that Moses is the author of Geography: Grandmaster 05:18, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

More on Geography from Hewsen:

The general neglect of Ananias is not surprising. Until recently only his geography was available in a Western language, and for three hundred years this work was mistakenly attributed to another Armenian writer, Moses of Xoren.

3 Moses of Xoren (Arm: Movses Xorenac'i) was an author of the 5th century to whom is also attributed a History of Armenia. Internal evidence reveals both the Geography and the History to have been written much later, the Geography in the 7th century and the History in, probably, the late 8th. For the dating of the History see C. Toumanoff, Studies in Christian Caucasian History (Washington: Georgetown Univ. Press, 1963). For the Geography see Joseph Marquart, Eransahr nach der Geographie des Pseudo-Moses Xorenac'i (Berlin: Weidmannsche, 1901).

Robert H. Hewsen. Science in Seventh-Century Armenia: Ananias of Shirak. Isis, Vol. 59, No. 1 (Spring, 1968), pp. 32-45

Grandmaster 17:31, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Moral revert of Dab and a long reply

Once more mates, I find myself drawn in by these fascinating, though I have to admit seemingly frequent, debates that are taking place on Misplaced Pages. As I introduced myself on Ibrahim Khalil page, I hope no one will mind an opinion of an uninvolved third party contributor. As a student of the new school of Armenian studies, I think it’s relevant to explain the real issues. What I have learned from my research is that Western Armenology has rendered the need to grasp Armenian language to study Armenian history as optional. That's what the whole debate is centered round. And the motivations of those criticising the conventional school of Armenian studies are really about this. This is why scholars like Thomson (a fellow Brit) are criticised. In his case, he essentially deemed the need to read classical Armenian manuscripts nearly unnecessary. Even if unintentional, the result of his work was to relay those classical authors to secondary positions. There are very few if any schools of other languages which treat, as optional, the grasp and reading of the manuscripts of the language of the authors, of which culture is the one which is being studied.

We must make something patently clear: we are not dealing with Soviet Historiography. During the Soviet times Armenian scholars’s treatment of the subject had more to do with internal matters than Soviet material. In fact, materials published in those years in Armenia are, very admirably, only mildly influenced by the Soviet school in comparison to other fields. The problem is rather the isolation of years of communism of the Eastern and Western schools of Armenian study. This has harmed the field very much, as both sides have made valuable contributions. I had the opportunity last summer to visit Turkey (the Istanbul patriarchate archives), Georgia (Tbilisi) and Armenia and, to my very surprise, relevant research materiel from private and public collections from Armenia are not well known. We should not surprise ourselves of the conflict produced by decades of separation.

I'm presently in California conducting research and those manuscripts kept in Armenia are being missed and it is uncontestable that Armenian (from Armenia, that is) have a level of expertise which is unparalleled in the 'school of Armenian studies' over here. I've been learning classical Armenian for several years, which, as any expert will know, is nothing; and have been learning modern (eastern) Armenian for the last two years. I guess this is more than average when compared to most from the so-called school. In Armenia, modern Armenian is what they are born with and historian of Armenian studies learns classical Armenian even prior to his receiving of his undergraduate degree.

Coming to what is being discussed here: I think the most relevant criticism is probably those directed against Thomson who often has been carelessly easy to jump to conclusions. To explain the problem surrounding his works, his translation and notes regarding the Armenian historian Agathangelos, I think, can sum up pretty much the problem I and others had with several of his works. Thomson both in some of his inaccurate translations and non-inclusion of elements against his position has probably done some damage to the credibility of those scholars by insinuating that anything relevant and accurate described were copies of Greek works.

In the case of Agathangelos, as was at least a century since his work has been attested to have been written in Armenian first, Thomson did everything but to deny that, by making implicit remarks and his insinuations which imply Greek influence to impossible extremes. This renders his claim as if the original was indeed Greek. His exclusion of all the relevant other versions is a testimony of that. Winkler (1979) for example mentions the two Georgian versions, the Arabic (which is a more accurate version than the Greek one he uses) and another more accurate Greek version predating the one he uses. Thomson even claims that the Greek manuscript 'Orchid no. 4' follows 'Vita Gregorii', which of course is inaccurate. He also totally ignores Esteves Pereira’s edited Ethiopian version 'Bulletim da Sociedade de Geographia de Lisboa', 19 (1901). Van Esbroeck even discovered a Syriac version of the manuscript, which there is no mention of in his bibliography.

Where Thomson fails even more, is his exclusion of what he should have known, of manuscripts predating the edition of 1909 he has used. Lang (1978) for instance reports his failure to use such materials. More worth mentioning is the Agathangelos palimpsest belonging to the Mekhitarist Fathers in Vienna predating the version he used for three centuries. There was indeed no reason for Thomson to not have used them as on the bases of lack of access, the palimpsest was published in 1911 and even an edition published in 1976 existed. Nothing is said also about Paris codex No. 112 of the Bibliothèque National, dating to the thirteenth century. Thomson also provides notes of historical nature even for elementary facts for those his work is destined to; for instance that Iberians were the ancient Georgians. I don't know of any well versed historian writing such a specialised work, who would provide such notes for such elementary information the reader should know obviously about.

Comming to his translation, Lang (1978) touches on this by providing some mistranslations (Thomson even realises it does not make sense, but blames the Armenian text, claiming it to be corrupted), when the real reason behind his mistranslations lies in his ignorance of historical context, other relevant texts, expressions and of his erroneous belief that everything is fundamentally Greek influenced, as so his mistaken belief of some words being etymologically Greek. Winkler (1979) in his review does make few corrections, by relating the ignored Syriac influence, which of course changes the meaning of quite a few words and also to the often ignored Iranian influence, which Thomson even finds problematic by his own admission but does not give due weight regardless. Garsoian (1979) does see the problem, when she writes: 'Such an undertaking might have better illuminated the complex fifth-century Irano-Greek world in which the surviving Armenian Agat'angelos cycle was compiled.' But, unfortunately, she's too light and naive in not really seeing the problem behind such a careless study.

Thus, Thomson has maintained this line, of ignoring context in his translations, and this, decades later, is unjustifiable. Hewitt (1998) provides some mistranslations of Georgian Chronicles with Armenian Adaptations and I was not surprised to find that here too, Thomson has the habit to change versions without informing readers. In that particular case it was Q'aukhchishvili's main text, which Thomson has used variants without indicating this. It's unprofessional to change versions so that it fits what the translator believes to be accurately translatable. This was done often in the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th, but it is not really considered to be proper conduct anymore, at least without providing a note to that effect and why it was done so.

Thomson’s carelessness is not limited to just a few, but several important works, his translation of 'Elishe: History of Vardan and the Armenian War' is one more such case. In his over fifty pages long introduction he needlessly wastes his time having to remind us over and over again that Elishe was not an eyewitness of the events described. As Lang (1983) puts it, on top of that he exaggerates and goes to extreme lengths to deprive Elishe of any originality of style or subject matter, and from Lang's words: 'to detect everywhere self-conscious citations of the Holy Scriptues or the Apocrypha.' But to add insult to injury, here too, he mistranslates on a couple of occasions. I can go on, but would prefer not to.

In the case of Khorenatsi, delving into it is much more complex, because of the historical context which is quite complex. But to say the least, Thomson never adequately answered one important question which relate to Khorenatsi self representation in his own work. Those who write such texts in their given period do so without knowledge of the place their work will have in history. Khorenatsi in great lengths describes himself in his own work, and the incidences which he claims having been implicated in. If he was an author of much a later year, it's then a role playing work, the purpose of the role playing being unknown given the reasons he provides for which he wrote 'The History'. It could only make sense for us over a millennium later, why he did it, knowing about the current implications. But we know now of a couple of other attempts in writing an Armenian History, including predating his. So his ulterior motives in engaging in this sort of game, if he really did so, remains unknown to me and am sure to many others in the field. And Thomson never really came up with any answers about this central point. His thesis became even more unconvincing when one considers the other works which were attributed to him. Thomson also ignores that from the fifth to the seventh (and even eight and beginning of ninth) centuries several events have been repeating themselves and some of the arguments he provides could have been answered by this alone. More so, is that it is a common practice to retouch works and update, censure and even repair them. My review above of Agathangelos’s work is one major example of this, with the more original versions being different than the newer ones. There are different Armenian versions, at least two different Greek versions, so even for the same languages. Besides, even Thomson engaged himself with such a review by grammatically 'correcting' the Armenian version he provides.

Of course some of the arguments provided, attesting to the fact that he wrote his work later, are strong, but the credit given to Thomson is exaggerated. Lang (1979) is used in this article, but his review of the work is not given enough weight since he provide the main arguments in regard to Khorenatsi for which Thomson was strongly criticised. Six out of nine of the paragraphs of Lang (1979) are critical of Thomson's work. I agree with the former when he writes: 'T'homson finds little to admire in the work of Moses Khorenats'i,...' Those relevant points and Thomson dismissal’s of Khorenatsi does deserve a place in the article since this dismissal influenced several other scholars until the 1990's, when scholars finally realised Khorenatsi's important place in Armenian history, regardless of when he was born.

One must also take into consideration that sources predating the 1920s are unacceptable on the grounds because they rejected Movses' reliability as a historical source. When archaeological studies were later conducted, much of Movses' information was validated, such as Artaxias I's border markers. This information was not available to A. Carrière, Geltzer, Khalatiants, Gutschmidt, etc. (the so-called hyper-critics). Furthermore, the reason this criticism was raised was because it was a product of its time: as the nascent study of history was formulated in the 19th century and 20th century, many scholars began to cast doubt upon ancient historians, such as the venerable ‘father of history’, Herodotus, and Thucydides. Toumanoff, for a reason I ignore, have not paid as much attention to this important element when using Carrière. Mr. Dab provides Britannica, (but I assume the author is Suny) which lists no author and Mr. David M. Lang contradicts himself when he says that Movses did not let on more info because that would expose his story; if so, then how is it that he inserted anachronisms which clearly would have exposed him in the first place? If we're going to give such due weight to Britannica, we might just as well give the same weight to it in writing the Armenian genocide entry regardless of the fact that Britannica contradicts all other major encyclopedias there. In the case of Khorenatsi, there remains discrepancies between works, the last time I have checked the 'Reader's encyclopedia of Eastern European literature', it was still claiming Movses’ birth and death dates from 390-450.

These are only the glimpse of the issues, but there are far more problems in the 'school of Armenian studies'. For example, when Suny (a political scientist originally, not a historian) covers every possible era (particular periods could be understandable, even a political scientist could specialise in a particular period in history). Suny is in fact everywhere, for example criticising Dadrian’s (the indefatigable genocide scholar) thesis of a socially drawn effect of the series of excused crime. Suny is also there writing about Georgia and Azerbaijan, with a switched expertise. Suny even present himself as if being knowledgeable of classical Armenian. I think you can get the picture. When scholars of a particular school specialises in 'everything' this begs the question, on whatever the school has enough material to work on, so that one scholar is assigned a particular era, subject or whatever. In Armenia, that's what I saw and I think the 'school' would benefit in forming its expertise in specific fields. Because the way things work in this field, some scholars are given too much power. Suny, for instance, writes most of the materials in Britannica and Encarta regardless of the periods, and this I believe is a major problem, especially when using it as a source.

I can't fail to realise the timing of this conflict here. It corresponds with those students who have voiced their opinion and even recorded an offending message; I even had a colleague emailing me the link of a disturbing and slanderous YouTube video. Anyway, I'm sorry my reply has ended up becoming this long but I hope my points will be taken into consideration during the discussions.

Addenda: The allusion to the moral revert in my title was in support of Mr. MarshallBagramyan. The language and adjectives used by Dab is, to say the the very least, disturbing and contains hints of racism. Undoing nearly the totality of someone's work without prior engagement in more minor changes followed by discussions is inexcusable knowing the heated discussion this article has generated. The only reason I did not revert is because the interaction between users has rapidly turned it into a battlefield. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Diamond Apex (talk • contribs) 06:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi. Our objective here is not to find the truth, or establish who is right or who is wrong in a scholarly debate. Our goal is to present all the existing scholarly views according to their weight. I think the edits by Dbachmann did not remove any important information, and actually helped to improve the article, because they introduced the mainstream view into the article. I think it is quite obvious that most serious scholars outside of Armenia date Moses of Chorene later than the 5th century. In the original version of the article the mainstream view was not presented at all, and the position of Thomson was presented as wrong, etc. According to the rules, wiki articles must not assume any position, they must present all the notable positions accurately according to their weight. This is what we should do. Everyone is entitled to have his opinion about who's right and who's wrong in the debate about dating of Movses, but the article should not contain any personal opinions, it should reflect only published opinions of notable scholars. Grandmaster 08:03, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

With regard to Thomson. He goes a bit too far in his criticism, and Lang notes that.

Unlike the general run of Armenian historians, Moses Khorenats'i is also a mythmaker, a story teller of great talent. This is partly why he makes such an appeal to Armenian national pride. Obviously some of his tall stories have to be taken with the proverbial 'grain of salt'.

Thomson finds little to admire in the work of Moses Khorenats'i, whom he censures for his lapses in chronology, his attempts at mystification, and general failure to live up to the standards of a Harvard Ph.D. candidate. References by Moses to Josephus are 'distorted' and 'attended by suspicious circumstances' (p. 26). Moses' account of fourth century Armenia is 'tendentious' (p. 46) - still worse - 'Moses is an audacious and mendacious faker' (p. 58). Thomson could obviously have written a better history of Armenia himself.

But despite Lang's rejection of some of Thomson's criticism, he agrees with the general opinion that Moses is not a 5th century author, and states that

Few if any scholars outside Soviet Armenia continue to defend the old fifth century dating, though in Erevan the venerable chronicler's discredited account of himself is still upheld with patriotic zeal.

So despite some over the top statements, overall the opinion of Thomson reflects the general consensus in the international scholarly community about the dating of Moses of Chorene. Grandmaster 10:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

There's absolutely no "general consensus", I can give two refs for that. Sardur (talk) 11:48, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Which refs are they? Even if not general consensus, the prevailing opinion in the international scholarly community is that Movses lived later than the 5th century. Also, note the words of David Lang quoted above: Few if any scholars outside Soviet Armenia continue to defend the old fifth century dating... Grandmaster 12:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

The world hasn't stopped with Lang you know. Both Mahé and Mutafian (or Toptchyan) wrote that there's no consensus on the dating; Mutafian / Toptchyan is particularly interesting as he presents every position without taking side. Sardur (talk) 12:40, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Of course not. But Lang is a lot more authoritative than Claude Mutafian, Topchyan or Mahe. --Grandmaster 13:00, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Not so according to Dbachmann, apparently Lang is an Armenian nationalist promoting national mysticism: .-- Ευπάτωρ 13:26, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't see him saying anything about Lang. Grandmaster 17:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Lang is the author of Armenia: Cradle of Civilization. Here's the paragraph added by Dab in the diff above: The phrase "cradle of civilization" plays a certain role in national mysticism, and has been employed, for example, in Hindu nationalism (In Search of the Cradle of Civilization 1995), Armenian nationalism (Armenia: Cradle of Civilization 1970), but also in esoteric pseudohistory such as the Urantia Book claiming the title for "the second Eden". -- Ευπάτωρ 17:50, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Dieter's comments were offensive. I thought he was reprimanded for his rudeness and that was why he seemed to have stopped editing Armenian-related articles, but he has since resurfaced and remains as mean-spirited as ever. Well this Armeniapedian cannot assume good faith or collaborate with the short-tempered Schweizer. Sorry. TA-ME (talk) 20:57, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure you know Mahé? Or have you read some strong criticism about him? Sardur (talk) 20:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't know Mahe, but he represents a minority view on the subject. Most Western sources reject 5th century dating. Grandmaster 04:41, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Now that's funny: who said he supports the 5th century dating? He actually doesn't take side either in his translation. Sardur (talk) 05:25, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Then what's the problem? You say that Lang's claim that "Few if any scholars outside Soviet Armenia continue to defend the old fifth century dating" is not true. Then who are those experts outside of Armenia, who support the fifth century dating? When Mahe says that there's no consensus, he probably means that there's no consensus between Armenian and Western scholars. The former, according to Lang, are motivated by "patriotic zeal". Grandmaster 06:14, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

On top of what I posted below: Lang doesn't say "motivated by patriotic zeal" but "upheld with patriotic zeal". That's of course completely different. Sardur (talk) 10:39, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply, but please know it’s not necessary to quote me their reviews (as from my answer above, I have already read those and am informed of their opinions but just to make a correction, six out of nine paragraphs go far beyond being a bit judgmental). Coming to the aforementioned consensus, as Mr. Sardur stated, there is no such general opinion as you (and quite rudely, Mr. Dbachmann) contend. Take the example of Anania of Shirak. There are many real problems with the attribution of 'Geography' to Anania, and even those who adhere to this position know about it. Hewsen himself admits to holding this position. But Greppin (1995), for instance, brings one of the strongest arguments against it, which is the persistent theme that 'Geography' was written before the catastrophic arrival of the Moslem Arabs.

Hewsen does provide some possible explanations, which Greppin does not find wholly satisfying. In the West, more precise studies of the concepts, conceptions and beliefs of the writers were never really conducted. You provided the link to the Haroutunian text (which I highly recommend you read), particularly the section dealing with Anania’s beliefs on the shape of Earth, its size, and so on and so forth, and those contradicting with the views in 'Geography.' Thus, you see, the matter is far from being resolved. In 1970, Lang (1970) pointed to the fact that many scholars adhered to the position that 'Geography' was neither written by Anania nor Khorenatsi –the debate is still ongoing. At hand are many problems, and there are similar elements found in both Geography and Khorenatsi.

Some scholars, realising this, have advanced that Khorenatsi might have been inspired by Geography, so Khorenatsi was a later scholar. But the new trend seems to be different; Smith (2006) for instance does echo what seems to be a recent tendency: he place Khorenatsi to the fifth century and advances Anania as being the author of Geography but having been inspired by Khorenatsi. Smith is well aware of Thomson’s criticism, for he uses Thomsons annotated translation and notes in his references. In fact, in a previous paper (2004) he actually placed Khorenatsi in the eight century using the very same Thomson.

This is unremarkable, though, since there have been dozens of publications since Thomson which have clarified several serious misconceptions. We can just bring out the one example of Julius Africanus's Chronicle in Khorenatsi's work, one of Thomson’s fighting horses in the text: we understand now with the help of brilliant scholars like Topchyan (2005, 2006) that the Chronicle controversy resulted most probably from a misconception due to misunderstanding of some classical Armenian expressions. --The Diamond Apex (talk) 14:47, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I have learned that whenever my comments are discussed in terms of being "offensive" they are straight to the point. If there was something wrong factually with what I said, people would not need to try and find something to denounce in my tone or my vocabulary or my callous disrespect for the sacred feelings of patriotism cherished in the heart of every upright Armenian. See WP:SPADE. It is not offensive to call nationalist fringecruft for what it is. I am delighted to discuss nationalist fringecruft, but this will need to take place in articles about nationalism. I have already suggested we add a section discussing the role of Moses in Armenian nationalism. In such a discussion, Armenian nationalist publications are the primary sources, and our quotable secondary sources will be studies of nationalism, such as the Constructing Primordialism: Old Histories for New Nations one provided by Grandmaster. This is exactly the kind of references we are looking for. If Eupator can cite another scholar criticizing the conclusions of Suny I would be delighted to see them. Producing such would at least be more productive than whining about the offensiveness detected by some Wikipedians in the tone of voice used by Dbachmann when he pointed out that Misplaced Pages isn't a patriotic project.

Since The Diamond Apex seems to know his way around this topic, let me repeat that I have absolutely no opinion on the matter, and that if he can produce an academic source stating that while the question was regarded as settled in 1970, it has been re-opened for serious consideration since, let him present it and I will be ever so glad to defend its inclusion. --dab (𒁳) 15:21, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Textbook red herring. How quick the mighty fall, and all it took was a small dose of his own medicine. It's all good though, all of this remains on record and will surely come in handy.-- Ευπάτωρ 03:51, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

This may also come as a surprise: you calling the Armenian editors here 'patriots' is condescending in every sense of the word. I'm actually amazed that they have restrained themselves after all this time.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 20:38, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

This is from a source that came out this year:

Moses identified himself as a pupil of Mastoc'. However, modern scholars have suggested that Moses flourished in the eighth century rather than the fifth century, based on internal evidence in his History.

Robert Benedetto, James O. Duke. The New Westminster Dictionary of Church History. Westminster John Knox Press, 2008. ISBN 0664224164, 9780664224165, p. 448

Grandmaster 16:48, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Fascinating. Who does he use as his source?--The Diamond Apex (talk) 20:38, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Please check the source, I provided the link to google books. The authors provided their references. Grandmaster 04:48, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Topchyan

Aram Tʻopʻchʻyan, The problem of the Greek sources of Movsēs Xorenacʻi's History of Armenia von Peeters Publishers, 2006 ISBN 9789042916623

I see this reference has cropped up in the literature section, without the article making use of it. According to the introduction:

The author of the present study has re-examined in detail the references to Berossus (third century BC), Alexander Polyhistor (first century BC), Cephalion (first - second centuries AD), Abydenus (first or second century AD), Julius Africanus (second - third centuries AD), and Bishop Firmilian (third century AD). From his study he has drawn conclusions that call for a modification of earlier over-simplified opinions. From his study he has drawn conclusions that call for a modification of earlier over-simplified opinions.

According to The Diamond Apex:

--we understand now with the help of brilliant scholars like Topchyan (2005, 2006) that the Chronicle controversy resulted most probably from a misconception due to misunderstanding of some classical Armenian expressions.

what exactly does this mean? There is no indication either in the blurb nor in The Diamond Apex' statement that this in any way implies the re-opening of this "controversy". If I am mistaken, and Topchyan does in fact claim the thing dates to the 5th century, correct me. If he doesn't, please avoid waving around references that do not actually support the claim made. I will be happy to have our attention turn from this silly "controversy" to actual philology of the work under discussion. Topchyan would seem to be an excellent reference for that. Let's hear to which "over-simplified opinions" he is adding complexity. So far, this article doesn't even list the Greek sources of the History, let alone "over-simplified opinions" associated with them. If anyone is interested in building this article as opposed to coatracking about Armenian patriotism, it may be an excellent idea to summarize Topchyan's conclusions about the sources available to Movses.

The "controversy" alluded to by Topchyan consists of "varied and often diametrically opposed views; scholars ended up with either an outright denial of the historiographic value of Movses' book or unreserved acceptance of everything he says" While we have met the latter position, especially on this talkpage, the article as it stands is completely unaware of any "outright denial of the historiographic value of Movses' book". I would be interested in references to that position. Obviously this isn't the dating "controversy", since saying that Movses wrote 250 years later than he claimed he did doesn't amount to "outright denial of historiographic value". I would be interested in who was supposed to take the position so summarized by Topchyan, as in every account of the work I have seen, it is characterized as of the utmost importance to early Armenian history. --dab (𒁳) 15:38, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Dab, I have some difficulty following you. What claims were made? I don't know if you are realising this, but you are backtracking. This was your addition: 'he is mostly dated to between the 7th and 9th centuries by historians.' You also wrote previously: 'in light of the statement in Britannica that "Nothing is known of his life apart from alleged autobiographical details contained in this work', but it does not seem that you make of any use of the following from the same article: raditionally believed to have lived in the 5th century, Moses has also been dated as late as the 9th century.' Your removal of his birth and death dates are unjustified. Birth and death dates are not required to be agreed by all, they just have to follow tradition for historic or claimed historic figures. From the same token we can do the same for all those religious figures, or figures such as Socrates, Thuycidedes and Herodotus.

The 'latter position' is not accepted by most Armenian historians, actually. The studies done by Armenian scholars in recent decades, while accepting the fifth century dating persuasive, have found and noted many problems in the historical text of the work. But no, you are wrong here: German, French and Armenian orientalists rejected Khorenatsi's value as a historical source. In fact, I remember one notable orientalist (his name eludes me) commenting that the work had absolutely no value at all! Furthermore, it is unjustified from your part to ask clarifications only now with my answer when previously another user brought up the same author. Why only now? I can send you the paper, it's not accessible through JSTOR, so probably you don't have access to it. His words as the author are most probably more relevant than mine.

Just to summarise: the article is currently in a sad shape. The tragic language on 'nationalism' and the castigation of Soviet/Armenia Armenian historians reminds of the Soviet era rambling against the imperialists and capitalists. Why is there such a vested interest by you Mr. Dbachmann to consign of all them into the wastebin? If seventy years of sincere scholarship can be dismissed outright in such a fashion, I shudder to think how the rest of the articles on this encyclopedia are worded. Both on the scholars, and the editors here, both your tone and from the content of your own message are highly disturbing. What is more troubling is that you find nothing wrong in it.--The Diamond Apex (talk) 20:34, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

The criticism of the Armenian revisionist school (along with those of other Transcaucasian countries) is well known. In addition to Suny, you can read about that in publications by the Russian historian Shnirelman and Western archaeologist Philip L. Kohl This does not mean that the Soviet Armenian historiography should be completely discarded, but it should be used with certain care. I find it interesting that the 5th century dating has no prominent supporters outside of Armenia. If arguments of historians in Armenia are so convincing, how come that experts outside of Armenia are not impressed? Also, I think the editors should stick to WP:NPA, which holds: Comment on content, not on the contributor. Please keep it to the topic, discussing other people's motives and personalities will not help improve this article. I think Dbachmann is right, if someone is not happy with the present state of the article, he can improve it by adding the arguments of the proponents of the 5th century dating. It should not be that difficult, and once it's done, all the existing points of view will be properly reflected. The original version of this article was no good, it claimed 5th century dating as a fact, which we know it is not. Grandmaster 05:22, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

You're oversimplifying: first, authors outside of Armenia supporting the "5th century dating" (this is already an oversimplification in itself: 5th century dating of what? the author? the text?) have already been mentioned: The Diamond Apex mentioned Smith, and I mentioned Hacikyan (if I'm not mistaken, he's "outside of Armenia"). And on top of that, there are authors that present "both" (there are of course more than two) views: I mentioned some of them, and some you mentioned yourself.

All this is making the article quite poor from the historiographical point of view. And we still didn't really talk about the philological one. This last point is btw (and in my opinion but who cares) one of the main explanations of the dating issue (of the text of course). Sardur (talk) 10:36, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Since this article is about Moses, we are discussing the dating of the author. So far I'm the only one quoting sources here. It would be nice if you or anyone else quoted Smith, and other sources you refer to, so that we could form an opinion about the source and what it actually says. Grandmaster 11:45, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Since someone had the wonderful idea to merge both articles, both datings have to be discussed.

As for sources, I will as soon as my computer at home will get repaired. Sardur (talk) 14:19, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

So far what I see are numerous precise quotations given by Grandmaster, which are all clear, explicit and verifiable. What I read from The Diamond Apex is an awful lot of assertion with almost no clear verifiable content. So "Smith" supports a 5th century date. Well that's all we are told. Who is Smith? What is the title of the publication, what are Smith's actual words? As for the brilliant Topchyan, well I've actually taken the trouble to look at this short and rather evasive book. At no point can I identify any clear statement about dating in it. Mr Apex writes "I remember one notable orientalist (his name eludes me) commenting that the work had absolutely no value at all!" I suspect he is repeating what Topchyan says on p.5 about Alfred von Gutschmid. In fact Topchyan says that von Gutschmid reduces the value of Moses' "references and citations" to "almost nothing", which is quite different from saying "the work had absolutely no value at all". In other words we have nothing here that is clear or verifiable. Please provide it and we can progress. Paul B (talk) 14:44, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Finally ^^

Topchyan (145 pages) short? I suggest you read footnote 2 on page 3.

Hacikyan: http://books.google.ch/books?id=uvA-oV0alP8C&pg=PA305&dq=hacikyan+khorenatsi&hl=fr#PPA307,M1

Mutafian: "Le problème de la date de Moïse et de sa fiabilité comme source historique est donc encore ouvert."

Mahé would be too long to quote (around 80 pages of analysis).

And as for Smith, that's a bad faith remark, as it is easy to find who he is on the net.

Sardur (talk) 21:53, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

The remark is in entirely good faith. What is mysterious is why you will not answer the simple question. And yes, 145 pages is a short book. I note that you fail to quote Smith or identify him. If it's so easy, why not do it? You also fail to quote Topchyan, but link to a book which seems to have nothing to do with him. Why is it so difficult for you to be straightforward? Paul B (talk) 23:33, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Topchyan: did you miss the link on top of the section? http://books.google.ch/books?id=QRPxTNpJJfIC (or better: http://books.google.ch/books?id=QRPxTNpJJfIC&printsec=frontcover&hl=fr&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0 ). And for a book linking Moses to 4 Greek historians (when most of what we have are articles or sections of books), that's definitely not short.

Smith: I let that to the Diamond Apex, as I didn't know about his writing before. Sardur (talk) 05:26, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

From what I see, the most prominent supporters of the 5th century dating are the authors of the following book:

Agop Jack Hacikyan, Gabriel Basmajian, Edward S. Franchuk, Nourhan Ouzounian. The heritage of Armenian literature. Vol.1: From the oral tradition to the golden age. Wayne State University Press, 2005. ISBN 0814328156, 9780814328156

But it should also be noted that they say in the preface:

It should be emphasized, however, that The Heritage of Armenian Literature is not intended, nor does it claim, to break new ground in scholarly analysis of the works it contains. The editors have drawn on the work of many excellent scholars in the field — whose works, it is hoped, may gain wider audience among those who read and enjoy this anthology — but their only concern has been to provide the reader with sufficient orientation in time and ethos that his or her reading, enjoyment, and appreciation of the selections will be enhanced.

Their vision of the issue can be found here: , pp 305 - 306. They say that "Today much of this criticism has been rejected", but also that "However, the Khorenatsi controversy is by no means over". I personally don't see that the criticism has been rejected, since most leading experts date Movses to 8 - 9th century. The opinion of the authors of this book appears to be a minority view. Grandmaster 05:54, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

With regard to Topchyan. His assertions are being criticized by other scholars. In particular, Topchyan's attempts at ascribing some of the material in Khorenatsi to the 3rd century historian Sextus Julius Africanus are rejected, see:

In his History of Armenia, Moses of Chorene claims to use Africanus as a source for a potentially long text, but the value of this attribution is dubious. In his second book, Moses refers to the fifth book of the Chronographiae as the main source for the history of the Armenian kings. Africanus is supposed to have based his knowledge of Armenian history on the archives of Edessa, but critical research now mostly rejects this. Attempts at ascribing at least part of the material to Africanus via the use of Greek parallel texts remain unconvincing. This does not exclude the possibility that Moses might have had some contact with the transmission of the Chronographiae, but at present this remains totally uncertain and no concrete fragment can be ascribed (beyond the testimonium in T88).

134 The work purports to be written at the beginning of the reign of Sahak Bagratuni (482). Scholarly debate has proposed dates which vary from the late 5th to the 9th century; possibly, a dating in the 7th/8th cent, would be the most plausible, see Mahe 1993, 88-91.

135 See e.g. Thomson 1978,12f; Traina 1991,61-63. The information in Moses that is allegedly taken from Africanus can mostly be traced back to other sources, Mahe 1993,66-68.

136 Topchyan 2001 has argued that large parts of Moses' book 2 are taken from Africanus. This has been rightly criticized by Terian 2001/02, esp. 113, n.40. Topchyan has reacted to the criticism in his recent monograph (Topchyan 2006), where he presents the thesis in a moderate form.

Sextus Julius Africanus, Martin Wallraff, Umberto Roberto, Karl Pinggéra, William Adler. Chronographiae: the extant fragments. Walter de Gruyter, 2007. ISBN 3110194937, 9783110194937, page XLIX

Also, same book, page 261:

The translation is taken from Thomson 1978, 145f. For Africanus' well-documented connection with the Edessene court see his Cesti 1,20, which describes his experiences in the court of Abgar VIII (176-213), also F29 (on the preservation of Jacobs tent in Edessa). On the basis of this text it has been claimed that much of the following material in Moses comes from Africanus (Topchyan 2001). However, this cannot be proved and the hypothesis has been rightly criticized (Terian 2001/02). The material of Moses should be considered only where Greek parallels are available (eg F89), see also Topchyan 2006 and Wallraff 2006,49f.

This is the source that criticizes Topchyan, and which the authors of the aforementioned book agree with:

Terian, Abraham, Xorenac'i and Eastern Historiography of the Hellenistic Period, REArm 28, 2001/02, 101-141.

I have no access to it.

Grandmaster 06:22, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, from the above quote it seems that Mahe finds the 7th/8th century dating to be the most plausible, but since no quotes from Mahe have been provided, it is hard to make any conclusion with regard to what Mahe actually says. Grandmaster 06:25, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Also of interest is that another prominent expert in Armenian studies, Charles Dowsett, criticized an author, who stated the 5th century dating of Movses as a fact:

The author is, of course, quite at liberty to think Movses Xorenaci a fifth-century author, but the non-specialist reader might benefit from a reference to divergent views, listed for example in A. O. Sarkissian, JAOS, LX, 1, 1940; it is a pity that for quotations from this author the 1736 edition of the Whiston (not Whinston) brothers was used rather than the Tiflis critical edition of 1913, but this was no doubt more from necessity than by choice.

C. J. F. Dowsett. Reviewed work(s): Altarmenische Grammatik by Hans Jensen. Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 23, No. 2 (1960), pp. 403-404

Grandmaster 06:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Answer to Grandmaster (to Grandmaster 05:22, 15 April 2009 (UTC))

If that’s supposed to be taken as an indication of incompetence or lack of credibility, it’s unconvincing. Grandmaster, I assume you believe that what I have been writing is inaccurate, as if I have motive to do so. I have provided you Smith, and in my characteristically long reply you will see an encyclopedia being used which is more specific than Britannica. Listed below is a bibliography detailing more than the number of recent publications you have provided placing Khorenatsi in the fifth century (published in the 1990s and 2000s) The publishers are not provided; however, I have compiled this short list to show you that you are misleading the rest of these editors when you claim a consensus exists in Western academia.

• When worlds collide: the Indo-Europeans and pre-Indo-Europeans, Thomas L. Markey, John A. C. Greppin, Bellagio Study and Conference Center - 1990 p. 207
• The Cambridge History of Iran: The Median and Achaemenian periods, William Bayne Fisher - 1991 p.101
• Introduction to cataloging and classification, Bohdan S. Wynar, Arlene G. Taylor - 1992‎ - p. 233
• Encyclopedia of traditional epics‎, Guida Myrl Jackson-Laufer, Guida M. Jackson - 1994 p. 29
• The Dictionary of Art‎, Jane Turner (editor) - 1996 p. 154
• The southern Caucasus in prehistory: stages of cultural and socioeconomic ...‎ Karinė Khristoforovna Kushnareva - 1997 p.190
• Studies in Eusebian and Post-Eusebian chronography, Richard W. Burgess, Witold Witakowski - 1999‎, p.199
• Archaeology in the borderlands: investigations in Caucasia and beyond‎, Adam T. Smith, Karen Sydney Rubinson, 2003, p.144
• Anatolian Iron Ages 5: proceedings of the Fifth Anatolian Iron Ages ...‎, Altan Çilingiroğlu, Gareth Darbyshire, British Institute of Archaeology at Ankara - 2005 -

p.145

• Diaspora Judaism in Turmoil, 116/117 CE: Ancient Sources and Modern Insights‎, Miriam Pucci Ben Zeev - 2005 - p. 247

Do you believe that we can now discard sources such as the Cambridge History of Iran with the drop of a hat? As I have already indicated, those who are the strongest adherents of the position against the fifth century, admit, too, that this subject is far from being settled. In Robert W. Thomson’s latest work (1999) he himself admits that even though he claims that he presents the best explanation is to place Khorenatsi in the eight century, The dating of Khorenats'i remains highly disputed,... (Emphasis added). Hewsen too, in his Armenia: A historical atlas (2001) remark he's unsure, check p. 7, dates uncertain.

I don't see the relevancy of either of the links you have provided us with. How can their expertise be compared to scholars such as Aram Topchyan, who completed his fellowship at Hebrew University and specialises in Khorenatsi’s studies. If you read my long reply you would have seen that one of my main points was that in Armenia they form experts and scholars in specific fields. In the West, they form scholars on Plato or other Greek scholars, but there are no such specialists in the field of Armenian studies. This specialisation is specific to Armenia and only after the fall of the Soviet Union has this concept been transplanted to the West.

I can also only caution you to be careful, at least here, because I’ve noticed that you have had the tendency to select works in such a way that the reader, and to an extent some of the editors, might think that there is such a consensus and that this issue can be likened to a struggle between Armenia(n) and the West, a dangerous notion which has allowed these heated discussions to reach xenophobic proportions.

Don't forget that my only claim over here was that there was no such consensus and I have just to find several notable works to show you this. On the other hand you and Mr. Dbachmann, since you both claim that there is such a consensus in the West, should be advised to check works referring to Khorenatsi and then reach that conclusion. You have done some research (as shown from the references you came up with), but it’s rather peculiar that you did not find it worth mentioning a considerable number if relevant works have placed Khorenatsi in the fifth century. You must realise that we are dealing with a source from over a millennium ago, and the level of evidence required from Khorenatsi is not the same, as many scholars take into account the limited access to material.

I see, for example, that you questioned that the original text of Agathangelos writing of ‘History of Armeni’a in Armenian prior to the writing of the Greek version (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Agathangelos&action=history) Why are you questioning a statement that was, at least to my knowledge, never in dispute? David M. Lang (1970) writes that agreement on his identity and writings have existed for at least a century, and neither Thomson nor any scholars have questioned this. Why should any material be provided when every single published work from the 19th, 20th, 21th centuries claim him to be an Armenian? It's pushing the argument a tad bit too far; you might as well attach citation tags on articles which claim that the sky is blue or say that the Pope is Catholic.

As for your accusation of me making a personal attack, I can only sum up what has been going on here in a few words: whereas I have written here two thousand or so words directly concerning the material being used in article, Dbachmann has gone to extraordinary lengths to generalise the beliefs and attitudes of users. I will simply pretend that I never read your comments.

Answer to Paul (to Paul B (talk) 14:44, 15 April 2009 (UTC))

Hi Paul, I provided those names in the sense that anyone who is familiar with the topic will have little difficulty recognizing them. Those who know who Suny and others (which I assumed since Grandmaster quoted them) should know that it's about Adam T. Smith, a professor from the department of Anthropology at the University of Chicago who specialises in ancient Armenian history. I don't know of any other Smith having published anything that year about such topics. You can access his website here: http://home.uchicago.edu/~atsmith/ The paper in question is: 'Prometheus Unbound: Southern Caucasia in Prehistory' – it was published in the Journal of World Prehistory, Volume 19, Number 4, December 2005 , pp. 229-279. The relevant quote is: 'In the fifth century A.D., the historian Moses Khorenats’i lent his narrative of Armenian national formation a sense of place by weaving myth and history into the major ruins that dot the landscape of the Armenian Highland (see Thomson for a discussion of the considerable controversy that surrounds the dating of Khorenats’i’s text).' p. 234. It will be my pleasure to send you the page. You see when I provided those names and the dates, I assumed those readers would recognize them and both Grandmaster and Dab from their edits in the article here have shown they know enough ofthe subject to know who the principle actors are. So when you say, 'is an awful lot of assertion with almost no clear verifiable content' you should take a closer look at the authors and dates mentioned and assume that I read them here. As for your comment in quoting me, no, I was not referring to Topchyan’s comment on page 5, but to a heated debate in the 1990s between some scholars after a lecture (which I was present at). Please forgive me for presenting an esoteric atmosphere when I make these edits.

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