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Suggestion: Free Markets section

Existing text contains the preposterous understatement: "Modern liberal movements often agree in principle with the idea of free trade, but maintain SOME skepticism, seeing unrestricted trade as leading to the growth of multi-national corporations and the concentration of wealth and power in the hands of the few."

My sense is that most liberals (excluding, of course, neoliberals) would now say that free trade in the neoliberal sense should now be regarded as an outright failure. Too, the section "Liberalism After World War II" gives the impression that the "liberal pendulum swing" continues in the direction of laissez faire. Surely, nothing could be further from the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.47.8.88 (talk) 22:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion: Civil rights section

Can you please amend the intro sentence to include "... and in more contemporary cases, sexual orientation or gender identity"

Europe, South Africa, and many places in the United States considered to be 'liberal' have inducted equal protection for LGBT people under the law.

Also "advocate equal rights for women and homosexuals" is awkward. BrainMagMo (talk) 05:37, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

==This statement is false== They are the anti christs.

In the intro it states "It (contemporary liberalism) seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on power, especially of government and religion". Contemporary liberalism or Modern liberalism distinctly calls for more government intervention - not less. This is just plain false. Doctors without suspenders 00:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I also think the "contemporary" part is a little bit weird in this context. That statement describes both liberalism now and liberalism a long time ago, so the distinction is not necessary. On the other hand, it does say "broadly speaking." Ideologically, modern liberalism still borrows heavily from the classical variety....the statement is not false; it just probably needs clarification and a realization that the situation is a tad complex.UberCryxic 00:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, we should mention that modern liberalism does not call for greater government intervention for the sake of government intervention. There were many stimulii that prompted liberals to call for greater state action, among them the rise of communist ideology, World War I, and the Great Depression. Simply because they started doing so under these conditions, however, does not mean that they apostatized their original intentions and beliefs. It simply means that those ideals had to be rethought and reworked in new contexts. In that sense the statement is fine.UberCryxic 00:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

UberCryxic, thanks for your input, and no offense, but I don't know what the heck you just said. Let's just look at this straight on. Either a statement evaluates true or it evaluates false. That statement simply evaluates false. It's not a judgement on more government intervention and there's no need to defend or attack it here. The statement is just not true. Doctors without suspenders 03:55, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The most appropriate thing to do would be to get feedback on how the term 'contemporary liberalism' is being used here. It could be that it does not square well with what you and I are thinking. I am not certain about that "either true or false" criteria (it seems quite ridiculous on account of not enough effort being devoted to defining the terms), but if we were to take that stance, then the statement would go to true under my evaluation. I explained why above. The conditions that forced liberals to examine the mechanisms of their societies does not mean that liberals lost track of some of the most fundamental aspects of their ideology. Limitations on the power of government is still a central liberal tenet, but it may exist under a different context in our world. This is what's probably causing the confusion. But there are still some aspects of classical and modern liberalism that match up quite nicely with regard to the limits of government power; one of them would be respect for constitutional states and societies. This is a defining feature of political liberalism and it has not changed in the modern world. In that sense, one can see how 'contemporary' liberalism holds that government should not have too much power: constitutions were, and are by definition, meant to regularize, standardize, and sometimes restrict what states can and cannot do in relation to the people that they govern. The statement is more than appropriate.UberCryxic 04:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

That's all fine if you're into revising reality. Classical liberals called for as little government intervention as possible - modern liberals like lots of intervention. Sorry, it's a well-known fact. Doctors without suspenders 04:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

It's disparaging to say they "like lots of intervention." This confuses intent with expediency and circumstance. Socioeconomic and political situations in modern times have made it expedient for liberals to modify the roles they are willing to accord to government, that's the well known fact, but that does not mean that they like doing that, at least generally speaking.UberCryxic 04:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry - I don't understand what all that means. All I am interested in here is fact. It also contradicts the statement in the following paragraph: "Many modern liberals advocate a greater degree of government interference in the free market..." Doctors without suspenders 04:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Well if all you are interested in is fact, then Misplaced Pages is not the appropriate place. Misplaced Pages is supposed to document what reliable sources say; we take on stance on whether a given statement is true or not. That's just a general policy reminder. As regards to this article, then you are incorrect. So despite your interest in fact, you are actually saying things that are not factual. Either way, I've now changed that part and it simply says 'liberalism' instead of 'contemporary liberalism.' Finally, if you are having difficulty understanding what I am saying to you, then you should probably make an effort to rectify that. Making assumptions and strawmen arguments that serve to characterize your perceptions of what liberalism is does not help anyone and leads to futile confrontations.UberCryxic 19:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I removed the contradict tag. One contradictory statement would not be enough to warrant the tag, and the statement is not even contradictory in the first place. It makes the distinction between modern and classic liberals rather clearly. -- Cielomobile 06:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Today, that is in 2006, it is conservatives rather than liberals calling for greater power for the federal government. Historically, every administration, Republican and Democrat alike, has roughly doubled the spending of the federal government over the previous administration. Nobody comes right out and says, I like the idea of a powerful federal government, but the liberals were willing to accept a powerful federal government to end segragation and the conservatives are willing to accept a powerful federal government to fight terrorism. On the other hand, to say that liberals "like" a powerful federal government is equivalent to saying that liberals "like" corruption, just because some liberals have been corrupt. The ideal of liberalism is freedom. The idea that liberals want a federal government that micromannages people's lives is Republican political propaganda. Rick Norwood 12:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

You say: "Historically, every administration, Republican and Democrat alike, has roughly doubled the spending of the federal government over the previous administration." Please remember that most administrations around the world are neither Republican nor Democrat. The USA is NOT the world! 132.185.240.124 (talk) 07:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC) Manormadman

I agree with Rick. I just want to add that this is not an article on American liberalism, so the fears of Doctors without Suspenders are no valid. Electionworld Talk? 17:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

First, I don't get my information from Republican propaganda. I personally don't care what the Republicans say. Second, I know that the Republicans and the Democrats both advocate a bigger federal government. It's completely irrelevant here because this article is on liberalism - not the Republicans or the Democrats. It's false to say that contemporary liberals advocate little government involvement (in America, at least), no matter what the conservatives want. It's true I don't know much about European, or other, liberalism, other than American liberalism. There should be some clarification on all this in the article, though. Otherwise it is completely confusing. I don't find it clear at all. And the article is still contradictory no matter what arguments are given here. Doctors without suspenders 18:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

It might be wise to read the whole article. It makes clear distinctions between various forms of liberalism. Electionworld Talk? 18:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

To argue that the entire article must be read to understand the contradictions in the introduction is absurd. The introduction does contradict itself. I mentioned this when I was a lowly IP, I called it, "flowerbox liberalism". WP:OWN, whatever.--Scribner 01:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The introduction does not contradict itself, now or before.UberCryxic 01:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Please learn to format your comments on the talk page UberCryxic, thanks. The introduction is too long and misleading. I'll edit.--Scribner 03:12, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Not that it matters, but I feel it's easier if I start completely on the left if someone before has indented. I really hate it when the comments just keep piling up on the right....looks like a damn stairway or something.UberCryxic 03:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually the lead is not long at all, especially considering the subject at hand. Nor is it misleading. Nonetheless, I would like to hear what specific complaints you have. What exactly is misleading?UberCryxic 03:18, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The "lede", pronounced "lead" but spelled, "lede" is too long compared to other political articles and yes it is not factual nor npov, with regard to less government and more taxes. Oxymoron to me. Have to run for now, just consider the changes, thanks take care.--Scribner 03:41, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

"Lede" is not a word in the English dictionary. I have no idea where you came up with that one. To convince yourself that I am referring to the right thing, just check out WP:LEAD, which starts off:

The lead section (lead paragraph or introduction) of a Misplaced Pages article is the section before the first headline.

Anyway, that aside, classical liberalism did advocate, stringently I might add, for as little government intervention as possible. This is a strain that continues to prevail in and influence modern liberal thought, though obviously in different contexts and in different ways. Modern liberalism is different from classical liberalism, and that distinction is drawn in the article, but when speaking about liberalism "broadly," as the lead does, the statements are more than appropriate.UberCryxic 03:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Common misspellings for lede=lead, Uber-minor, I agree. Sorry, really have to run--Jasper23, comment before reverting.--Scribner 04:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I did comment in my edit summary before you made your fourth unilateral revert. Please be civil in our future exchanges. There is no need to try and "call me out" All that does is build bad blood. Thanks. Jasper23 05:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

In all likelihood it is a neologism or an inside word amongst journalists. I can't find that word in dictionary.com or in Webster. So....something's gotta give here.UberCryxic 04:17, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I changed that statement again so it had something to do with reality. Let's not try and change reality. Okay? Doctors without suspenders 22:30, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

It is impossible to change reality, so I think you won't have any worries there. The laws of physics are beyond human intervention (hopefully). You probably meant perceptions of reality, which is a whole other area for discussion. Anyway, a few days ago I removed the word "contemporary" to make the statement appropriate. There is nothing wrong with what it says now. Liberalism, at large, really does seek a lesser role for government; that is, in fact, an essential aspect of the spirit of liberalism.UberCryxic 01:12, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

"Lede" is a journalists' term—quite a time-honored one, I might add—and refers only to the very opening lines of an article, basically intended to suck the reader in. "Lead section" is also a perfectly valid term, referring to a larger portion of the start of an article, usually down to the first section header or other similar break. - Jmabel | Talk 19:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

You should understand that I'm not disagreeing with you. It's just that none of these dictionaries are picking it up. Seems like a ghost word.UberCryxic 23:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lede BryanBessette 21:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I dont think the talk page for liberalism is supposed to be used to discuss spellingHungaryboy1 (talk) 00:18, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Generous?

In Studies in Words, C. S. Lewis described the root meaning as "free, not a slave" and the term as acquiring the meaning "generous" from the use of it to indicate behavior appropriate to the free. Wiktionary agrees with him about the root. (Check under lower-case "liberal".) Are there references to substantiate the "generous" origin? Goldfritha 02:56, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Sure, the OED backs C. S. Lewis all the way. The first sense of the word, chronologically, is ‘worthy of a free man’, as opposed to servile or mechanical. The second sense, arising out of it and documented from 1387, is "free in bestowing; bountiful, generous, open-hearted", as in "In fighting he was strong, in giving liberal" (1387). The political meaning, defined by OED as "favourable to constitutional changes and legal or administrative reforms tending in the direction of freedom or democracy" isn't documented until 1801. Bishonen | talk 00:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC).

Featured article?

Are we ready to improve this article towards featured status? __earth 09:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

At this point, the article needs many more citations and a light copyedit.UberCryxic 18:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Is it alright if I nominate this article for CotW? __earth 01:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Sure, but I'd recommend nominating it for good article status first. -- Cielomobile 02:38, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

How about this: we try to win the Collaboration of the Week first. Once won, we'll try good article. Once we've gotten that, we'll shoot for FA. Deal? __earth 02:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I've nominated the articlefor COTW/AID. Please support to improve the article by casting your vote there. __earth 03:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Criticism section

Some equivocation permeates the article in the use of "natural law." For the British and most Americans, the natural law was the dictates of reason confirmed by evidence. Outside this narrow group, "Natural Law Theory" (NLT) is the moral reasoning of the Roman Catholic Church, based on Thomas Aquinas' misunderstandings of Aristotle. The former has its roots in Stoicism, was imported into Christianity by Augustine of Hippo, and the latter was a novation of the Stoic tradition with Aristotle's tradition. In neither case is "natural law = laws of nature." Moreover, Natural Law Theory is seriously defective, confusing Aristotle's teleology of nature (physis) with instrumental or practical reasoning of ethics (ethics). Robert George and John Finnis, both Roman Catholics, are the only apologist for this conflated theory, despite it also breaching the FACT/VALUE divide, and making IS - OUGHT (Hume).

`````dshsfca —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dshsfca (talk • contribs) 22:00, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

User User:Jackbirdsong has deleted the following, due to opposition to the existence of criticism section:

Though I agree the criticism section is unnecessary, I do think the section has good points and we should try to spead out the point throughout the article without having a section specially created for criticism against liberalism. __earth 03:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with the deletion of this section, despite being an ardent liberal. I have reverted his edits. Large-scale changes such as these should be discussed here first, and they should be discussed ad nauseum at that. There is criticism of liberalism and that section gets some of them well; just because it lacks citations does not give us reason to delete it entirely.UberCryxic 05:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm with UberCryxic here. I too am quite liberal and believe that a criticism section definitely has a place here. I do find it odd, though, that Conservatism has no criticism section...that should probably be corrected. -- Cielomobile 05:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the idea! Hungaryboy1 (talk) 00:22, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

... it isn't that we should not include the criticisms, but that the information should be properly incorporated throughout the article rather than having a troll magnet section of random criticisms.----Comment by Jimbo Wales

• Hello Cielomobile . Assuming you read the above statement and understand what is means, what are you saying? One more time:

... it isn't that we should not include the criticisms, but that the information should be properly incorporated throughout the article rather than having a troll magnet section of random criticisms.----Comment by Jimbo Wales--Scribner 06:28, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

A little bit of history. Criticism sections appear in many articles. There was one in the article on conservatism, but it was deleted so often that the material there was incorporated throughout the article. That might be a good idea here, as well, but not wholesale deletion. Rick Norwood 13:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

All-right then Scribner, how about we change that section to a coherent set of criticisms, rather than random ones?UberCryxic 13:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Deletion was ridiculous, criticism is appropriate. Moreover, the section was wholly "coherant"; each point has been associated with an established view, and as far as I can tell, each view is not internally contradictory. If we want to follow Jimbo's will to the letter, then fine, spread the material across the sections. Lucidish <sub>{ Ben S. Nelson }</sub> 15:49, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

This seems to be a case of someone with a hammer, to whom everything looks like a nail. There was nothing wrong with this section. It was a reasonable statement of the critiques of liberalism from various other points on the political spectrum. There is no evidence that it was functioning as a "troll magnet". I think it was fine the way it was. - Jmabel | Talk 01:36, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

The current criticism section is actually a woeful representation of state of the art critiques of liberalism. It reads like an overly simplistic "straw man." It contains no references whatsoever. If the willingness to allow critics of liberalism a voice is sincere, there are several thoughtful critiques to draw from- notably, "What the Matter With Liberalism?" by Ronald Beiner, "After Liberalism" by Immanuel Wallerstein, "Enlightenment's Wake" by John Gray, "If You're an Egalitarian, How Come You're So Rich?" by G.A. Cohen and "The Liberal Virus" by Samir Amin, among many others.BernardL (talk) 03:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I just want to point out that we are presumably discussing a rather different state of the section, since the previous discussion was from over a year ago. You might want to compare the current state of it to back then; I wouldn't be surprised if it was better then (though probably still under-cited). But I'm not plunging in myself, because this article is a battleground, and I'm largely trying to avoid those these days. - Jmabel | Talk 03:56, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

What did this say before??

"Liberalism is an ideology, philosophical view, and political tradition which holds that liberty is the primary political value. Liberalism has its roots in the Western Enlightenment, but the term now encompasses a diversity of political thought.

Broadly speaking, liberalism is stupid and emphasizes stupidity. It seeks a society characterized by much stupidity by individuals, limitations on what is boogers, especially of government and farts, the rule of idiocy, free public education, the free exchange of ideas, a market economy that supports relatively free private enterprise, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of all citizens are protected"

This is right at the begining of the article and seems to be obvious vandalism. I'm not sure what the wording was before to change it back. Rachelfk 21:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Rachel

The problem has now been fixed, but fyi: To revert obvious vandalism such as this 1) click on the "history" tab. Then click on the last post before the vandalism. Then click on "edit this page". Type "rv v" (revert vandalism) in the Edit Summary. Finally click on "Save page". Rick Norwood 13:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Earth's edit

Good edit, Earth! I would almost say, good, down to Earth, edit. Rick Norwood 14:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Rick. I wanted to do more edit but I unfortunately am a little busy right now. =( Anyway, Liberalism needs one more vote to survive Misplaced Pages:Article Creation and Improvement Drive for another week. Please vote for it =). __earth 12:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Is Forza Italia Liberal?

I am no expert and have been reading this page in a quest to better understand the difference between Liberal and Libertarian. On the basis of what I understand so far, I was suprised to see Forza Italia listed as a Liberal party (I live in Italy and know the party well), I would have said they were Libertarian.

Forza Italia's constitution states they are liberal, but it actually states a multitude of positions. Forza Italia(FI) have never run the country on thier own, they have led what is considered to be a right wing coalition. The other parties in the coalition are generally opposed to Libertarian concepts, and I suspect that in many cases they have watered down Libertarian proposals into liberal laws. Here are some actions which suggest to me that FI is a Libertarian party:

1)FI proposed, and obtained, a complete abolition of inherentence tax and tax on donations.

2)Tax evasion was declassified from a criminal offence to a civil offence.

3)FI proposed to sell off public land such as beaches and mountain areas (as well as public monuments) on a Freehold basis. This was watered down to leasehold agreements by allies.

4)FI has been behind some deregulation of commercial and economic activity.

On the other hand some of FI's activities seem to fly in the face of Libertarianism (or liberalism for that matter):

1)FI do not have a very good record on free speech, during the period 2001-2006 when FI led the governing coalition, Italy slipped down to the bottom of press liberty ratings (for example Freedom House). FI's leader suprised everbody when he was hackled (non obscenely) by a reporter at the exit of a court proceeding; he orderd the police to take the person's details.

2) The coalition of which FI is a part has a very conservative standpoint on issues such as gay relationships and immigration. Undoubtly this is in part due to the very conservative stance of other parties in the coalition, but FI never appears to oppose htese conservative viewpoints.

So just how should one classify a party such as Forza Italia? Allthougth I live in Italy I am an English citizen, and I am also well familier with the UK liberal democrat party. These two parties appear to me as different as chalk and cheese, are they really both liberal?

Well, FI is a party with many factions, but they are generally liberal-conservative, that is, they support some free trade and deregulation but also hold more conservative views on social and religious issues (and no, it's not just because of "allies", it's mainly because a large part of the old Christian Democrats are now in Foza Italia, forming the core of its conservative faction). The LibDems, on the other hand, are social-liberal, that is, they are liberal on social issues but not so much on the economy. Indeed, liberal-conservatism and social-liberalism do not go well together. In fact, the American visceral fight between "conservatives" and "liberals" is a dispute between liberal-conservatism and social-liberalism (in European terms). And although there are some factions within Forza Italia that are both socially AND economically liberal, they certainly don't go so far (on both aspects) as to be called "libertarians".Justice III 06:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Libertarians are primarily interested in preserving private property, and in favor of low taxes and little government regulation. Most people want the government to step in to give them what they want, and so a libertarian party is always a minority party. Libertarians split with the liberals and joined the conservatives when the liberals began to favor a progressive income tax. But it is a marriage of convenience.

I know nothing about Forza, but from what you say, they are a libertarian party run by people who talk the talk but don't walk the walk. For people in power, power is often the only thing that matters. Thus, many American libertarians are willing to vote for constitutional ammendments against gay marriage or flag burning, certainly anti-libertarian laws, in exchange for low taxes, which is the big issue for them.

In any case, you need to classify a political party by its platform, not by what the clowns in office actually do. In that case, Forza is a libertarian party. But like most libertarian parties, in practice they are willing to trade freedom for money.

American politics at the highest level is almost entirely about money, though there are still a few politicians who actually care about the country. In most cases, the slogans are for the rubes. Rick Norwood 14:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

All the liberal thinkers of this planet should join hands

It's high time that all the liberal thinking persons of this world join hands to fight extremism, neo-cons, terrorists and other narrow-minded ideologies. The world is in danger because the neo-cons are getting stronger in the west, while the huge majority of Islamic world is under the direct threat of mullahs or Islamic extremists. Realton 16:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Many neocons are also liberals, if by "neocon" is meant "interventionist". In any case, this isn't the right venue for pamphleteering. { Ben S. Nelson } <sub>Lucidish</sub> 16:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

A little bit idealistic Realton, but amen nonetheless. The French Revolution did, after all, promise liberal values to everyone around the world, not just the privileged few. In that sense, however, you'll note that George W. Bush has been quite the little (or big) liberal, at least in the rhetoric that relates to the Middle East.UberCryxic 00:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Well I partly agree with lucidish that yup this page is not for pamphleteering but my intention was just to share my views with others. Anywayz Can Bush be considered liberal coz he has not liberated the middle east n we all know what he has done to that region. Also sometimes I feel confused as what are the limits of liberalism and human rights approach. I mean the people who believe in peace and granting of human rights and and equality are real liberal or just everyone believing in a certain ideololgy but his/her deeds are contrary to it, like the neo-cons???? Realton 16:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It can be sort of complicated, since there are a lot of distinctions that float around out there. So your confusion is both understandable (and shared).

Human rights are a rigid part of the modern liberal approach, that's for sure; all modern liberals believe in human rights. But it's conceivable that a person could endorse human rights and not be a modern liberal. For example, a libertarian might support some (though not all) human rights. (To use an analogy: all cats are animals, but not all animals are cats.)

The Washington defence guys may or may not be neocons, depending on what their plans are / were. I take "neocon" to mean "someone who believes that we should invade other countries on the basis of some moral reasons". If we assume that the Washington bunch really did want Hussein out of power because he was a dictator, then we could call them neocons. But if we say that they just did it for Halliburton (say), then they wouldn't even seem to deserve the name of "neocon". They might instead be called "neoliberal".

(I don't make up these names, but I know how silly they sound.) { Ben S. Nelson } <sub>Lucidish</sub> 03:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

No soapboxing. But all liberal thinkers of the world should try to improve this article to FA status! =p __earth 08:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah yes, silly me. I thought there could be an adult discussion of the issues vs. liberal and conservative. The gunshots interspaced with full-automatic; more heat than light; rude and disrespectful comments; and out and out invectives; it's all too much; all be it, I'm just a truck driver and could not be expected to understand such issues.

Vandalism

When I typed Liberalism in the search box, I got a page that said "liberals are a bunch of shit eaters, we should kill them all." Does anybody else think this should be changed? Well, they are a bunch of pointy-headed idiots who want the rag-heads to take over the country, just like they have taken over Europe.--Jml4000 23:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Such vandalism is usually reverted within 15 minutes. Rick Norwood 13:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

When I first read this article it was fine, then five minutes later some idiot vandalized the entire article with gay bashing. I thought I would take the time to fix it, but less than five minutes later the same nonsense was inserted back in. Is there a way to find out who is responsible. Someone with more time may need to fix the entire article. Too bad.Herra-08 00:31, 17 December 2006 (UTC)herra-08

• We finds 'em, and we warns 'em. If the same IP address keeps on hurling feces, we block them. If it's a named account, we do the same. Such is the nature of cooperative editing, I'm afraid. The better question is whether the page should be protected against anonymous editing. It needs to be more solid and better before that would even be imaginable. Geogre 14:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

So you finds 'em and warns 'em, then shuts 'em down. How typical of a "liberal" to assume the superior overarching stance. Rather than debate, you hurl invecives. Rather than enlightment, you prefer censership. Rather than diversity of opinion no matter how obnoxious, you prefer forced uninimity. Sounds like Stalin to me, but then I'm just a truck driver.

The people who vandalize this page with "Liberals are idiots" comments obviously don't understand liberalism (the political/ideological theory) at all. If they did, they would be able to see that the term actually refers to something much more complex and different than a centre-left leaning american. These people should try going to school. 198.96.33.38 00:12, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Going to school or reading the article

Inconsistencies

At the beginning of the text appears the rather surprising (and revisionist) affirmation:

"Broadly speaking, liberalism emphasizes the communist agenda. It seeks a society characterized by government rule over individuals..."

However, later towards the end appears the more correct statement: "Collectivist opponents of liberalism reject its emphasis on individual rights..."

Mws06 17:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

It was vandalism. __earth 01:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

But it is true, so why delete? This article is not very neutral, many points are not completely true, or are omissive to the point of error. Get your stuff together, watch and see what liberals in the world are doing, not what they say... then read this article again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.177.12.38 (talk) 20:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

This article is about the political philosophy of liberalism, not about the actions of individuals nor about current events.Rick Norwood (talk) 16:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

not very neutral

At the end of the intro is the statement:

All Libs are idiots. they believe in murder, and they love muslims. they are what cause the people in 9/11 to suffer.

Obviously someone was acting out of immaturity and added it to be negative. I feel it should be removed but didn't know if it needed to be discussed first. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.215.237.220 (talk) 05:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC).

I agree this is a biased ignorant clearly American statement that needs to be removed immediately.

Unfortunately Liberalism is a much vandalized page. It has been reverted (=vandalism has been removed) several times since your report. Please feel free to remove obvious vandalism! There is no need to discuss it first. You'd be helping Misplaced Pages. Bishonen | talk 00:55, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

I think that it's ironic that the person above wrote that the biased, ignorant statement was obviously American; it shows their own anti-American bias. Veinor (ヴエノル) 01:41, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

While the reference to 9/11 does suggest an American voice, this is not to be taken as a representative of the general American public. Franklin Delano Roosevelt was one of the most important liberal figures in American History, and his influence is still felt today. Not all of us are like this guy.

Shouldn't this page be locked?

It gets tiring removing the same crap / vandalism virtually every day. JMLofficier 09:40, 24 December 2006

I'll semi-protect, let's see how that goes. - Jmabel | Talk 23:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Just like a liberal---silencing any discussion that you don't agree with! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.213.194 (talk)

Non-idiots sometimes forget to sign, too. Rick Norwood 19:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism is not discussion. I'm not quite sure, but I think that's about rule 101 about Misplaced Pages. HunterBlackLuna 03:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Just like a conservative---attributing to his shoes the faults of his feet.

Jesus H. Christ. Is this page always this much of a playground for the children? I think semi-protection is very called for here, and hopefully it'll keep the idiot vandals away. Hopefully somebody reliable with some free time on their hands has this one their watch list. I should say somebodies; this looks like it'll take the efforts of several. --Molon Labe 05:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page be a disambiguation page?

I'm thinking this article should actually just be a disambiguation page. It looks like various kinds of liberalism are being conflated and it's very confusing. The disambiguation would be between political liberalism, social liberalism, classical liberalism, economic liberalism, etc. All Male Action 04:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

This article follows the pattern of other portal articles in Misplaced Pages, such as History and Mathematics. It gives an overview, with references to various more specialized topics. Disambiguation pages are for phrases that have several entirely different meanings, and especially names shared by more than one famous person. Rick Norwood 13:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Those are indeed terms with "entirely different meanings." You never know what type of liberalism that a person is referring to when he uses the term "liberalism" unless you study the context. All Male Action 08:06, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that the idea that the various forms of liberalism have "entirely different meanings" is a pose. All liberals, for example, favor freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, the right to assemble, representative democracy, trial by jury, and so on. Their differences usually have to do with the conflicting roles of the federal government -- when the government acts to increase the freedom of some, it may be forced to act to decrease the freedom of others. For example, when slaves were given freedom, the slave owners were deprived of their property. But even the most extreme liberals in any variety of liberalism still are in favor of freedom, as contrasted to the original enemies of liberalism, who favored the existing class structure, the absolute authority of the church, and the devine right of kings. Those who do not remember the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. Rick Norwood 13:52, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll agree that all liberals "favor freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, the right to asssemble,...trial by jury, and so on," but not that they all favor representative democracy. Many classical liberals opposed democracy. In fact there have been several countries that were politically liberal without any democracy at all, such as the Austro-Hungarian Empire, where liberty is protected by an enlightened despot. But, what you're talking about, with the exception of the requirement for representative democracy, is called "political liberalism." And yes, all liberals favor political liberalism. But, that's where it ends. Beyond that there are different kinds of liberalism that have other beliefs besides political liberalism. When someone refers to "liberalism" one never knows whether they're referring to political liberalism, classical liberalism, economic liberalism, social liberalism, etc. I think it should be a disambiguation page. All Male Action 07:07, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

In the US, "Liberals" are the "Left". In Latin America, "Liberals" are on the "Right". In Europe, "Liberals" are "Centrist". The key question is - What accounts for this diversity: different strands of what is caled "Liberalism" or simply vagaries in the history and national politics of these countries?Giorgioz 20:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I think we must be very careful here. While it is true that liberalism across the world today encompasses a wide spectrum of sociopolitical and philosophical thought, there are some basic, fundamental tenets of liberalism that are not questionable. That is, if you disavow these, you are not a liberal.

In Maurice Cranston's famous words, "a liberal is one who believes in liberty." This definition, at its core and spirit, has never changed and never will change. Liberty/freedom is the key concept that underlies the whole liberal structure. The very word liberal comes from the Latin liber, which means "free." Originally, this term could mean something to the effect of an irresponsible person or even a vagabond, but eventually it acquired a definition meaning something along the lines of tolerant. The Spanish were the first to use the term in a political context in 1812 when a faction during the Peninsular War against France called themselves "Liberales." Their Spanish of Constitution of 1812 was also very liberal in nature, and in my opinion it is a document in the liberal pantheon equivalent to the Declaration of Independence or the Declaration of the Rights of Man. So that's a quick background into the early history of liberalism. What are the tenets of liberalism?

Philosophically, liberalism is rooted in the Fundamental Principle of Liberalism (I'll call it FPL), which states that liberty is the normal human condition and so the burden to prove this false or take it away, either intellectually or in some other way, requires explanation. Basically, the onus is on those who want to eliminate liberty to show why. It is very important to understand that the FPL is in importance right up there with what the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus is to calculus. If you know the latter, then you know it's very important to calculus; as in, calculus would not mean anything without it. Liberalism is the same with FPL. The FPL has its roots with the arguments of John Locke (often called the 'Father of Liberalism'), who maintained that early human societies were gentle and untainted by the hustle-and-bustle lifestyle of civilizations.

Now that we're past the FPL, there are some basic tenets that you can "strangle" out of it. Among these are the fact that all humans are fundamentally good (you can't pick and choose), rational, and capable of change. Then we'd make some more elaborate but still basic assertions (or so I think; if you find them controversial I'd love to know why): liberalism implies equality, religious toleration, and constitutional government, among other things.

So there you go: in its most basic forms, liberalism is what I've described above. It deserves its own article in every way. "Right" and "left" are horrible terms; they do not capture the underlying sociopolitical and philosophical complexities that characterize the beliefs of people throughout the world. For example, the "Right" in America believes in free markets and small government, but these are both very liberal concepts, mostly belonging to classical liberalism, but liberal nonetheless.UberCryxic 21:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree with those who think it should be just a disambig page. What people in different parts of the world usually refer to as "Liberalism" have wildly different meanings. I also don't think there is such a common bond of "freedom". So-called-Liberals Social-Democrats from North America emphasize positive freedom and, consequently, a great degree of state-tutelage, whereas most "Liberal" Liberals from around the world staying true to the tradition of Classical Liberalism emphasize negative freedom and absolute opposition to all forms of coercion, including from the state. It's naïve to think that American "Liberals", just because they came to be called as such for historical reasons, are still in the fold. Most have adopted a light version of Social-Democracy a long time ago. Just think of an experiment where American "Liberals" were transported to Europe and tried to join Liberal parties there: they would immediately be shunned by most as excessively interventionist and instead be advised to join one of the various Social-Democratic Parties. The only "Liberals" inside the American left who would be considered "Liberal" in most of the world outside the US are the "Moderates" / New Democrats. Apart from that, the two groups are now irreconcilable, in world terms. Justice III 17:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

As a European liberal, I don't agree. I think most European liberals would consider most American politicians being to the right of themselves, even many Democrats. At the end, the whole American political spectrum is in my humble opinion much more right-wing than the European political spectrum. (see the state of social security, health insurance, the lack of arms control and the support of capital punishment in the US). Electionworld Talk? 14:37, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that is entirely true. While the US system does sit farther to the right compared to most of Europe, US Democrats could sit pretty comfortably with European social democrats. The system and politicians do not necessarily reflect each other. The system itself is dependent on the interaction of various fractions and it depends on who has the upper hand at the moment as well as historical events. For instance, consider Roosevelt and Johnson. I find it hard to put them too far to the right compared to many European social democrat. __earth 02:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't present it as a fact, but it is my observation. A lot of European social democrats lost their ideological roots and came near liberalism. I wouldn't think Roosevelt and Johnson have ideological social democratic roots. BTW, at the moment some European social democrats come closer to communautharian values. Electionworld Talk? 08:34, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Rick and others; this should not be a disambiguation page. It traces the development of liberalism in general and contains a lot of information that the other articles could just not very easily incorporate. Likewise, there are some foundations of liberalism which are not questionable, as UberCryxic already mentioned. -- Cielomobile 18:02, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, the Justice III's phrase "worthy of the name" shows a strong POV. Rick Norwood 22:35, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I used the phrase with the meaning "fit to be called as such in world terms". No offense or POV intended, sorry if it made you upset. Let it be known that I have ammended the comment. Now PLEASE let us stay on topic. You responded to 4 words, not to the arguments...Justice III 00:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Your whole comment is nothing more than a bash on American liberalism. The difference between modern liberalism in the US and that in Europe is all the more reason to have a central article to explain these differences. -- Cielomobile 07:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Not really. Having simply one central article suggests that differences are minor and can be explained with a few notes, when in fact they are not, and a detailed explanation of each concept can be given in their respective articles. When a word has diverging socio-historical meanings the best way to deal with it is to have a disambiguation page. You can still talk succintly about the differences in the text that follows the links, and there will be no more illusions about a unitary definition of "liberalism". Just see the following examples that this article should follow: Radicalism, Revisionism, Anti-Stalinist left. Justice III 11:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The current page should stay as it is. Besides, in a way, it is a disambiguity page. Unlike typical disambiguity however, it goes further to explain why there are many branches of liberalism. The reason why branches of liberalism have different meanings is the evolution of liberal thinking. This article describes that evolution. Regardless, any liberalism, like has been mentioned earlier, has a central, ultimate theme. All branches of liberalism have the same end but different means of achieving that end. __earth 11:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Justice, your arguments are based on a very restricted, very narrow and very POV view of freedom (and yes I do realise I just said "Point of View view".) Part of this view is that the involvement of the state and freedom are two fundamentally opposed things, this is NOT what Classical Liberals thought (as much as you can classify "Classical Liberals" as having said one thing.) Most Classical Liberals were utilitarians who argued for the involvement of the state in areas that private interests are unable to provide. The difference is that Modern Liberals see more areas where private interests are deficient. Slizor 11:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and that, coupled with recent developments in in European social-democracy, is precisely what makes American Liberalism another name for American Social-Democracy.Justice III 12:25, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the controversy here is due to the fact that Justice III is contrasting the various forms of modern liberalism and focusing on the differences. This article, on the other hand, is on the rise of liberalism, and contrasts it with the prevaling theories of government in the 18th century: a belief in the divine right of kings, in the supremacy of the church, and in the natural superiority of the male over the female and the white race over all other races. I doubt, Justice III, that you have ever met a person who believes in the divine right of kings, and yet it was in conflict with that widely held belief that liberalism arose. The differences between the various schools of modern liberalism, which are covered in their own articles, are minor in comparison. Rick Norwood 14:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Why, by your reasoning, the differences between Socialism and Libertarianism should also be "minor"(!), as their claimed heritage comes from the same background as the one you mentioned. The problem is that you are reading too much into a name. FDR associates chose the name "Liberalism" for post-1929 policies because it suited their purposes and avoided linking them to Communism, not because Liberalism has to do with pork-barrel spending. If we must define ideologies based on the names people in specific countries gave them, we should even include the Colombian Liberal Party, which is a full member of Socialist International, as "Liberal"! The choice of the name in America was arbitrary. Why do you think Classical Liberals had to regroup as "Libertarians" in the US? Because they knew that their name had been hijacked by Cryptosocialists and that the two groups didn't have anything in common. Contrary to your claim, there is no continuity between the Old Liberalism in 19th c. America and modern crytosocialist "liberalism". Only a bunch of registered Democrats Misplaced Pages editors could argue so. Have you ever read the same definition in encyclopedia Britannica, or any such non-wiki encyclopedic definition of liberalism? There's even mention there of this illusion of continuity as the great "myth" of American "liberalism". So, get real, it is just a word. There is no continuity of thought, and the only views shared by American cryptosocialists and "outside world" liberalism are those espoused by most political groups today (liberty, democracy, equality of opportunity, etc., etc. It's very easy to find any two groups with these views in common and claim they must be linked.) Besides, it is a completely Americocentrist view to reduce the picture of modern liberalism to certain American stereotypes of "liberals" who are in fact (crypto)socialists. The two (unrelated) groups must be clearly distinguished if you want info on Liberalism in Misplaced Pages to be taken seriously. Justice III 18:16, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Justice III is far too unfamiliar with liberal history for me to even attempt a cogent response, but needless to say the foundational principles outlined above are what give liberalism its unique status and provide a compelling reason to give liberalism its own article. Just for a brief word, however: per Rick, there is continuity in liberal thought and ideology. This "cryptosocialist" talk erroneously presumes that liberalim was transformed into socialism or communism simply because it was influenced by them.UberCryxic 01:31, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Justice III, it doesn't seem that you are listening to what has been said here. I'll try once more. This article is about Liberalism, a movement founded by John Locke and Thomas Jefferson in the 18th century. It then goes on, briefly, to provide pointers to the various movements that call themselves liberalism today. For Modern liberalism in the United States, there is already a separate article. This really isn't the place to complain about That man in the White House. Rick Norwood 13:44, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Well...mostly by Locke, and in the 17th century. There were several others who laid the groundwork before Locke, but he identified and coalesced the main features of liberal ideology. Thomas Jefferson borrowed heavily from Locke, but that in no way constitutes "founding" liberalism.UberCryxic 15:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Locke founded liberalism as a philosophy, Jefferson was one of the founders of the first state based on liberal principles. Rick Norwood 13:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I can agree with that somewhat. The United States is, in many ways, the first liberal democracy. I just question how that means Thomas Jefferson "founded" liberalism. Wouldn't it make more sense to say he was one of the first to apply liberal principles in forming a nation-state?UberCryxic 17:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Jefferson was one of the founders of liberalism as a political movement, as contrasted with an abstract philosophical movement. Rick Norwood 13:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your initial statement, but not with your interpretations and conclusions. Preferrably, we should be able to derive virtually all liberal principles, including those of political liberalism, from the foundations of liberalism as a whole. In that sense, all Jefferson did was to, again, apply the principles that had been worked out before him. In terms of political movements, those of the French Revolution were far more significant than what Jefferson did in the US. It was the French Revolution that essentially led to the explosion of liberalism as a sociopolitically viable alternative.UberCryxic 14:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

But the American Revolution came first. Rick Norwood 15:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

It does not matter what came first in light of the earlier statements in my last paragraph. All liberal principles should be derived from a core set of tenets. "Founding" liberalism can only happen once, and it happened with Locke (mostly; again, I emphasize that other people also had a "foundational" influence upon liberalism even though we can't say that they "founded" it). In terms of political movements, the French Revolution made liberalism prominent, even though the American Revolution came first. Furthermore, the American Revolution was liberal in the sense that it was about (mainly) liberty, but the French Revolution widened the scope of what liberalism meant, making it universal (ie. that it belonged to everyone, among other things).UberCryxic 20:57, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

but the French Revolution widened the scope of what liberalism meant, making it universal

What? Talking about all persons having unalianable rights is not universal enough?--Flix2000 18:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I think he may be talking about the fact that the American constitution only counted a slave as a fraction of a person. Rick Norwood 20:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Please do not turn this article into a mere disambiguation page leading to multiple, seperate varieties of liberalism. Liberalism may be a varied phenomenon, but it is a single historical phenomenon in the sense that the later branchings do have their root in the original spread of liberalism. For liberalism to be studied as a proper historical concept it must be studied as a whole phenomenon, starting with the historical roots, before branching out to study more specific flavors. The same holds true for conservatism, communism, authoritarianism, anarchism and any other "-ism" you can think of. --Molon Labe 05:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation. Aside from the etymology of the word, classical liberalism has almost nothing to do with the meaning that the word carries within the United States and more to the point, to the context in which pages usually link to this one. I went through and cleaned up many dozens of links recently, switching them to modern American liberalism and didn't even make it a significant portion of the way through the full list. The fact is that liberalism has become a euphamism for left leaning or often simply Democrat in US English. I remember it being explained to me as a synonym for progressive when young. The fact that the present usage slowly evolved from a reference to classical liberalism is interesting, but mostly as a historical note. Naturally that isn't true for the rest of the English speaking world (or in Germany where I live --- where the Liberalen are the furthest right of the mainstream parties and closer to classical liberalism). However, it's that sort of ambiguity that disambiguation pages are for.

The bits above about things that all liberals have in common has little relevance to modern usage. As a political ideology, those ideals are things that every significant political body pays (at a minimum) lip service to in the western world. As such no one would use the expression (in the modern west) "I am a liberal." in reference to those qualities; they would almost certainly be establishing themselves as being aligned with the European right or the American left. Scott.wheeler 23:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

It Seems to me most of the confusion in this term comes from Americans who are constantly told the Democrats are Liberals, when infact by the rest of the worlds standards it is a Social Democratic party, not a Liberal party? 121.44.35.80 (talk) 03:24, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

The Dutch People's Party of Freedom and Democracy is plain liberal

I see that the Dutch VVD (People's Party of Freedom and Democracy) is included as a convervative liberal party. I beleive this is not correct, the VVD is a very strong proponent of euthanasia, abortion, gay marriage and same rights of men and women. On such personal freedoms it shares the views of the social-liberal party D66.

It is a strong proponent of both personal freedom and economic freedom and has ruled in governments with both the christian-democrats and the social-democrats. It is liberal, not social-liberal and not conservative liberal.

It is also a member of the Liberal International and the Liberal fraction in the EU parliament.

Hi Marcel4x4, I tend to disagree, academic sources like Andeweg and Irwin's standard work classify the VVD as "conservative liberal" (see Andeweg & Irwin Politics and Governance in the Netherlands p.49). There has been quite some debate on the talk:People's Party for Freedom and Democracy on this subject. Where consensus has been reached on the VVD's characterization as conservative liberal with some qualifications. Please take a look at Conservative liberalism what is exactly meant by this characterization, as it concerns foreign, economic and migration policy and not the medical-ethical and social issues you are refering to.

I also guess, welcome to wikipedia, please take your time to look at wikipedia:Policies and guidelines. Furthermore you can sign your posts on talk pages, like these with four tildes (like this ~~~~), so we know who said what. Happy editing! C mon 21:45, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Green liberalism

I Think it's important to sign also Green liberalism —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.15.135.203 (talk)

I'm not really sure what you mean here; could you elaborate? -- Cielomobile 18:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Green liberals are fanatics who want air to breathe and food to eat. Rick Norwood 22:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

No, green liberals are fanatics who want people living in the west to start living like peasants in Africa and want Africans to stop trying to improve their condition(thereby "destroying" the planet). --71.223.253.198 00:42, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Full moon out tonight fellas? 121.44.237.180 (talk) 15:03, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Category:Liberal newspapers and Category:Liberal weblogs

Removed cfdnotice, cfd has completed. --Kbdank71 15:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Result of the debate was delete. -Tobogganoggin 01:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment

66.37.246.250 00:18, 7 March 2007 (UTC) Today's liberals are far from believing in individual liberty and individual rights. Campaign finance laws, which ignore the 1st Amendment are applauded by liberals. Gun ownership, which is protected by the 2nd Amendment, is constantly under assault by liberals. High taxes and big government, which are supported by liberals, are in direct conflict with freedom. Individual liberty and freedom is more in line with the Libertarian and Conservative philosophy.

Ok, and conservatives believe in protecting the fourth Amendment with their Patriot Act. Give me a break. (Sorry this sarcastic remark was written by me. I'm not registered here at Wiki. I obviously didn't write the anti-liberal garbage at the top.)

That modern liberals do not believe in individual liberty and individual rights is a lie repeated by Republicans for political gain. "Campaign finance laws" as you call them, are not laws to restrict liberty but to limit bribery, which is endemic in our current political system. Reasonable people have never extended their belief in liberty to include crimes such as theft and bribery. Gun ownership is a subject that divides liberals -- some favor it, some oppose it. Republicans like to pretend that all liberals oppose gun ownership, even liberals who have always favored gun ownership. But, again, it is not instantly obvious that your freedom to own a gun does not conflict with my freedom to live without getting shot. (Personally, it is risk I'm willing to take. I'm a liberal, and favor private ownership of guns, though I do think people convicted of committing a crime with a gun should forfit their right to own a gun.) The US has the lowest taxes (and the biggest debt) in the developed world. Liberals are not in favor of high taxes per se, but in favor of taxes high enough to balance the budget, at least when the economy is booming. As for big government, George Bush has spent more money than all of the Democratic presidents in the history of this country put together. He has asserted that the president is above the law. He has asserted that the federal government has rights formerly given to the states. He has asserted that the federal government has a right to tap your phone, inspect you bank account, arrest and hold you without charge, torture you, and if necessary kill you, all in the name of "homeland security". This is the kind of big government liberals oppose. One of my favorite quotes is by Gerald Ford, "Any government strong enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take away everything you've got." Rick Norwood 12:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

DID you just claim the Patriot Act protected the 4th amendment? HOW?

1) Sign your posts with four tildes.

2) Turn on your sarcasm detector.

Rick Norwood 12:42, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

"That modern liberals do not believe in individual liberty and individual rights is a lie repeated by Republicans for political gain." Liberals believe in some rights.

""Campaign finance laws" as you call them, are not laws to restrict liberty but to limit bribery," Perhaps some people support them out of concern about bribery, but everyone who supports them is, at the very least, egregiously indifferent to liberty. And whatever the intent, the effect is to restrict liberty, not bribery. CFR just makes more hoops to jump through. The rich can afford lawyers to work their way around the laws. Ordinary people just get shut out. CFR is an outrageous violation of basic rights. No one should have to get a license to engage in political speech.

"The US has the lowest taxes (and the biggest debt) in the developed world." That's a dishonest claim. Yes, we have the largest dollar amount, but that's because we have the largest economy. As percentage of GDP, our debt is less than 70%, while Japan's is more than 170%.

"As for big government, George Bush has spent more money than all of the Democratic presidents in the history of this country put together." First of all, the president doesn't spend money, Congress does. Now that Democrats are in control, they're increasing spending even more: http://www.house.gov/ryan/press_releases/2007pressreleases/32207budget.htm . Secondly, according to this site, http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=3521 , the median federal outlay in terms of GDP under Democracts was 18.6 (and that's starting in 1962, so I'd expect it to be even more including FDR's terms), while in 2001, under Bush, it was 18.4. I suspect that, as before, you are engaging in dishonesty by looking at nominal dollars rather than adjusting for inflation.

"He has asserted that the president is above the law." Just a flat-out lie.

Heqwm (talk) 08:46, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

GA in zh.wikipedia

Please add {{Link GA|zh}} in interwiki section. Thanks! -- Givegains 13:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Religion

"Liberalism rejected many foundational assumptions that dominated most earlier theories of government, such as the Divine Right of Kings, hereditary status, and established religion. Fundamental human rights that all liberals support include the right to life, liberty, and property."

A lot of that is true, but not the part about "established religion." So liberals reject established religion, but many other consider themselves religious. They have rejected, however, the concept that organized religion is infallible. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wikifan999 (talk • contribs) 09:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

Not all liberals reject religion. In fact, most liberals, like most human beings, believe in some religion. The key word here is "established", that is, the belief that the state should establish a religion and require all citizens to believe in that religion and only that religion. This is a belief that liberalism historically rejected. Rick Norwood 13:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

That's exactly what I said. Oh wait, that is supposed to say "some" not so. (69.140.166.42 08:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC))

New Template: Lib

I just created a new template Template:Lib. (It's my first template). It takes one parameter, declaring whether the use on the page is "liberal", "libertarian", or "both". My idea was to use it to head articles such as Liberal International and Libertarian perspectives on gay rights where it might not be clear at first glance which meaning is intended. This would hopefully ensure consistent usage within an article, and prevent overly verbose unclear repetition from article to article. Feel free to discuss on the talk page Template_talk:Lib. samwaltz 20:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

neoliberalism

The neoliberalism section is poor in quality. Stiglitz is listed as a neo-liberal here, and as an opponent of neoliberalism at neoliberal. The article is almost all criticism of neoliberalism and doesn't even state clearly what neoliberalism is. Pinochet was not a neoliberal, he deferred his economic policy to the Chicago boys who enacted neoliberal policies autonomously. The statement "using government power to enforce opening of foreign markets" is loaded, and "move from a bureaucratic welfare-based society toward a meritocracy acting in the interests of business" is biased or POV. "In actuality, these governments cut funding for education and taxed income more heavily than wealth, which increased the influence of big business and the upper class." is an sweeping generalized empirical claim and needs a citation.

If this article was not locked I would have tagged it POV and Citation Needed. But really it should be rewritten to fix the errors, the bias, the citation, and made to look more like an encyclopedia article than a critical assessment by an opponent of neoliberalism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.93.17.138 (talk) 17:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

"The Chicago boys took a lot of heat for agreeing to work for Pinochet. Like most generals who seize power, he initially ran the economy as a centrally directed, military-type system. Only after this approach failed did he, in desperation, turn to the free market policies advocated by the Chicagoans. In retrospect, their willingness to work for a cruel dictator and start a different economic approach was one of the best things that happened to Chile." -- <a href="http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/3550422.html">LATIN AMERICA: What Latin America Owes to the "Chicago Boys" By Gary S. Becker, a Nobel Prize-winning economist.</a>

Now for POV: If you are going to call Pinochet "neoliberal," then make sure that you call Hitler a socialist and be truthful about the fact that Fascism was always a left wing ideology, not a right wing one. Nazis were National Socialists. And before you start barking about government and business conspiring with each other as being Fascism, please examine the role that the French government plays in its own corporations such as "Total." Hitler was nothing more than a Nationalist Socialist Dictator. Leftism has caused more pain and suffering and wars in the world over the past 100 years than any other ideology. It amazes me that hippies to this day drive around in cute Hitler-mobiles and praise Che.76.215.47.190 (talk) 00:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

More sources tag

The More sources template was recently added to this article. I worry that it was an attempt to discredit this article for POV reasons. The article has comparably many sources (27 books listed, and 19 citations), the conservatism article, has 11 books and 9 citations, and no "More sources" tag. This shouldn't be a reason per se to remove the tag, but in relation to most wikipedia articles, this one is doing comparatively fine I'd say. Debivort 00:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

No one has an opinion on this? Guess I'll be removing the tag soon. Debivort 16:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Removing Polish section

The first two authors in the Polish section are just works written in English (by Milton Friedman and David Boaz) and translated to Polish, which aren't relevant in the English wikipedia. The last don't appear in any way to be authorities on these topics. As such I'm just removing the whole section. Scott.wheeler 21:37, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Should rude talk be deleted?

The question seems to have arisen whether rude talk should be deleted. Note that we are not talking about common vandalism, e.g. "My teacher sucks," which obviously should be deleted, but rather a rude expression of an unpopular point of view, "All liberals are liars."

My inclination is not to delete, because the line between deleting rudeness and censorship is hard to draw. I would rather err on the side of giving even rude people their say than risk censorship of unpopular views.

I am not going to restore the section again, because now two people disagree with me. Certainly, I think the section is worthless, and I am bending over backwards in the "defend your right to say it" direction.

Comments on deleting talk? Rick Norwood 14:07, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the question isn't resolved at the policy level - I have mixed feelings but lean toward not cutting it out since it doesn't target any editor specifically. Debivort 16:11, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

It is just wikipedia:vandalism which can be easily deleted. The fact that liberalism is contested subject makes it more difficult, but the principle remains: vandalism can and must be deleted. C mon 20:59, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The purpose of a vandal is to destroy. The purpose of the deleted section was to express an opinion. The opinion was expressed rudely, but it seems to me it comes under the rules for rudeness rather than under the rules for vandalism. Rick Norwood 13:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Liberalism vs Totalitarianism

This section's first line needs to be edited. I can't tell, from reading it (I had to click around a bit to figure it out), what term G---- (an Italian whose actual name escapes me) invented: liberalism, totalitarianism, or facism (it looked like the section had been edited sloppily, so this was a possibility, in spite not not appearing nearby). And since I'm not a well-established member (what happened to "anyone can edit," up at the top of the page, by the way?), I can't do it myself.

The explained definition of new liberals is false outside America

You indicate that you have been across the many various kinds of liberalism across the world, and how liberalism is being understanded elsewhere than the U.S. Yet this article suggests that new liberals advocate to welfare, taxation and intervention in the market. But this understanding is exclusive for America. New liberals as well, are interpreted otherwise on the other side of the Atlantic, as a more moderate degree of classic liberalism, just as well as socialism too has been modernized from it's original form in the newer times we've passed into.

Go ahead and change the article per your understanding then. Debivort 21:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

"Modern" Liberalism?

Where did this description come from? Modern seems a very POV description to me. It implies that the others are somewhat old and outdated. And what about the neo-liberlas that came after, should we call them the "modern moderns" and as opposed to the old ones? Social Liberalism is a much better term and the one retained on the relevant wikipage. 193.132.242.1 10:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree, modern liberalism is not appropriated. The correct term is "social liberalism", since classical liberalism (neoliberalism) is also "modern". Ithaka84 (talk) 04:09, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Nikodemos edit

Nikodemos has made a large number of changes to the article without discussing them here first. Some of the changes seem improvements to me, some not, but all are unilateral and unreferenced. In his explanation for the changes, Nikodemos writes "(what separates liberalism from other ideologies is not that it advocates liberty, but that is places liberty above everything else)". This is clearly false. If liberals placed liberty above everything else, they would favor opening the prisons, but few if any liberals would advocate this.

I would like some other opinions on Nikodemos' edit. Should it be kept, modified, or reverted? Rick Norwood 12:51, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that particular edit by Nikodemos about liberty as the highest political end is true, though it does require some qualification. Nevertheless, the pre-Nikodemos edit offers a more general definition of liberalism, which I myself prefer. But otherwise, his edit is pretty okay, except, maybe about liberalism having only two major thoughts. __earth 14:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that liberty is the highest political end. That doesn't imply that liberals are against prisons or other forms of punishments. Liberty is defined later in the article and cannot be equated to absolute liberty. Ones liberty is limited by the liberty of the other. Electionworld Talk? 14:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

If liberty were really the highest political end, then liberalism would be anarchy, under which everyone is free to do exactly as they please. As soon as we allow for a government that limits the freedom of some citizens, even if it is in the interest of preserving the freedom of other citizens, then we acknowledge that even liberals accept that certain values, such as public safety, outweigh freedom. No freedom to shout "fire" in a crowded theater is an oft cited example. Rick Norwood 14:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Your example doesn't contradict that liberty is the highest political end of liberalism. Absolute liberty is not the highest political end of liberalism, but liberty is. That doesn't imply that there are no limits to liberty, since the liberty for others is a justification for limits to liberalism. Electionworld Talk? 18:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

What Electionworld says, basically sounds correct to me. But Rick Norwood is right in pointing out that the present wording can easily be misinterpreted. Couldn't we follow John Rawls in stating:

...the most important political goal, only to be limited for the sake of liberty itself.

Anarchists would consider any imposed limit as incompatible with liberty, other non liberals would see more grounds to limit personal liberty. And the many currents of liberalism of course differ in what they consider part of personal liberty, so it seems NPOV to me without getting too verbose.

♥ Stuart LaJoie → talk2me 11:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Bloated bibliography

Am I the only one who thinks almost all of the bibliography section should go? No only is it excessively long, much of it is also exceedingly irrelevant. (I mean, come on -- who comes to an encyclopedia article to find a list of books in Dutch on the topic ... or a random sampling of the no doubt thousands of articles or dissertations on the subject.) I'd just assume remove the whole section. Relevant references should be included in the citations. Scott.wheeler 23:08, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I would imagine a reader in Amsterdam might be interested in books in Dutch on the topic. Misplaced Pages is international. I'm not clear about what you think would be gained by deleting the bibliography. Rick Norwood 14:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

A list for further reading seems quite useful to me. This does not depend on the works listed being referenced in the article. I very much doubt whether the present sample is random, but it arguably could be improved. Deletion however seems no improvement to me.

Of course, Misplaced Pages is international. For this reason there are Misplaced Pages projects in different languages. Each of these projects is international too. Dutch speaking people are not just found in the vicinity of Amsterdam. If each language version does only list the books in the same language, you would have to use the link to nl:wikipedia to see Dutch language books. The advantage would be that the average reader does not end up with an enormous bibliography, mostly in languages he doesn't command. The effort to keep all these seperate bibliographies up to date would be considerable. As a reader you know which languages you command and you can take your pick of the links presented. So I would propose transferring the non English bibliographies to the corresponding Wikipedias (adding links if they did not already exist). In this spirit I have added the Dutch books to the article in nl.wikipedia. If my proposal would be accepted, they could be deleted from the article.

♥ Stuart LaJoie → talk2me 10:50, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I would list an English book on liberalism in a Dutch wikipedia article. Books in German, French , Dutch or any other language can be an important reference, so I think there is no reason to exclude books in other languages than English. It even might be good for anglophones to read relevant works in other languages and use them contributing to entries in Misplaced Pages. Furthermore, if deletion of literature in other languages should become a wikipolicy, it should be discussed elsewhere.

Another question is the amount of literature mentioned. I am neutral on that question. Electionworld Talk? 12:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Some clarification on my part may be in order.

1. I am not proposing a wikipolicy, I was only answering the question raised above. Whether my arguments are valid for other pages or projects too, I don't know.
2. Using books in other languages as a source for references is not the subject I was discussing.
3. I would agree that reading works in other languages is valuable. My point is: how can we help readers best in this respect.
4. There are works on liberalism in dozens of different languages. The number of people able to read all languages in which at least one book on liberalism has been written might be very close to zero. So it may be nearly impossible to make the comparisons needed to find out which books are most valuable to this article. My concern is the lack of a reasonable way to manage the amount of literature in languages the majority of the editors do not to understand.

If my proposal constitutes a violation of guidelines, please let me know. That was definitely not my intention.

♥ Stuart LaJoie → talk2me 13:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, some more clarification from my side:

• I'm not against listing definitive works on a topic that are in other languages, but general reading material seems out of place.
• This isn't ethnocentricism; I'm multilingual and don't live in an English speaking country.0
• I don't know of any specfic guideline on languages for additional (print) reading, but the guideline on external links (which are similar in spirit) in non-English languages is here.

My primary objection is that the further reading is not even really a bibliography or a list of authoritative works (which would be fine), but just a collection of writings on a topic which has a derth of material available. The current list is probably of less relevance than a Google or Amazon search on the topic. There's for instance nothing listed from Locke, but the PhD dissertation of an unknown U. Pitt student from three years ago is there. The writings in, for instance, Dutch, are not definitive works on liberalism; they're recent publications.

Scott.wheeler 13:50, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Something happened recently with the bibliography list, may of the existing books were removed, a lot of others were added. I think we should limit the list to some books giving a descriptive overview of liberalism. These books can be in other languages, but must have an added value. For each book a short explanation why the book is listes should be added. I have to think about the present books in other languages, but I know one of them has certainly an added value. This book would be listed by me as follows:

• Gall, Lothar (1985). Liberalismus (3rd ed. ed.). Königstein im Taunus: Athenäum. ISBN 3-7610-7255-4. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help) (German) This book gives an overview of the development of liberal thought in various countries around the world.

Most of the present books in the list should be deleted. Electionworld Talk? 14:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

First of all I was the one who personally added the bibliography section to this article... I do not coincide with the suggestion(expressed above) that the list is capricious or arbitrary. It is not. The criteria that I took into account in deciding which books to take into account include: (1) recently published (after 2000); (2) books that are collections of essays; the reason for this is that they provide a wider range of views on (this highly contentious) subject. (3) I decided to include books by both legal scholars and philosophers to provide two different approaches to the subject of liberalism. (4) the PHD dissertations are from up-and-coming promising young scholars from eminent universities. PS.. I deleted the foreign language list of books. I believe they belong in the liberalism article of their respective language. Rubbersoul20 20:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that those are appropriate criterion for inclusion. If they were used as source material for the article they would be fine as references, but I feel for these books much like I would for a collection of links. See for instance, "Misplaced Pages is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files". En lieu of an appropriate guideline, I'll point out that I've not stumbled across any other article with this style of additional reading material.

At the least I feel like it's fair to say that this specific type of material (i.e. non-classical texts) are not relevant in foreign languages. If there are no additional objections in the next couple of days I'll go ahead and re-remove those.

Scott.wheeler 16:03, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you take the time and look up each of the books on the list before you lay judgement upon them. If you believe any one of them is innapropriate go ahead and point it out. I have personally read many of the books on the list and I doubt that you will find a more thorough list of secondary literature on the subject of this size anywhere else. A should add that I used the WorldCat search engine, which as you might know searches the library catalogs of many of the worlds libraries. Again, the criteria for inclusion to the 'collection of essays' section were: (1) recently published (after 2000); (2) collections of essays; (3) books that are available in over 50 libraries around the world. As for the 'prominent law scholars' section, I personally searched out all the books written by law scholars from the most eminent universities in the english-speaking world: (yale, harvard, nyu, uc berkeley, stanford, u chicago, columbia, oxford, cambridge): and then chose those books having to do with liberalism. The same goes for the philosophy section. :: The PHD dissertations and the articles were not as deliberately chosen as the above mentioned lists. I am disposed to having them removed, if only for the sake of conciseness. --Rubbersoul20 03:42, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Please do not limit to books published after 2000 and do not limit to scholars from the english-speaking world. A good book from another language can be as relevant for an encyclopedia. Furthermore, before it becomes a bibliography sec (which WIkipedia isn't, might be an interesting new project), there should be a justification for each of the books to be included, so please add with each of the books listed the reason why it is relevant for this entry. Electionworld Talk? 06:07, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I limited the list to books published after 2000 only for the collection of essays section. Scholarship tends to be cumulative and much of this "recent" work integrates, revises and builds upon work that was written previously. If I had included books published before 2000 the list would have been 20 times greater. I obviously agree with you that not only english books on the subject matter. The list does include foreign-language books and essays that have been translated into english; the inclusion of these might not be as large as that of english-langauge books and essays but then again that is because this is after all an english-language article on liberalism. I think the burden of proof rests with you. Why don't you search out each one of the books listed and point out if there is any material that is sub-par, inappropriate, or irrelevant.--Rubbersoul20 13:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Recently published (after 2000)? I wholeheartedly disagree. The meaning of the term shifted very much, so this will inevitably bring a systemic bias. A more sensible criterion could be the existence of the page about the book in Misplaced Pages. If it exists, the book is clearly notable per WP:N. Colchicum 13:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

If you had but read the list of books instead of conjecturing as to the contents you would think differently.--Rubbersoul20 15:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I really think the burden of proof is with the editor adding books, since he thinks it is worthwile to add the book. I cannot say anything about a book i didn't read. Electionworld Talk? 20:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

You said it yourself: "I cannot say anything about a book I didn't read." So instead of questioning the integrity of the books listed why don't you read them? ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non que negat (The burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies.)--Rubbersoul20 20:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Beautiful Latin, but this is not a legal procedure. The one who adds information to Misplaced Pages is the one who has to proof. That's is you at the moment. BTW, visit Misplaced Pages:Notability (books) for the criteria. Electionworld Talk? 21:45, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

The question at issue is not whether to add more books but rather whether to remove the ones that are already there. --Rubbersoul20 21:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Those books were addes just recentyly during the holiday period. Compare the present version with the version of 19 july. BTW, with the addition of these books many other books which were for a long time in the list were deleted. So the burden of proof remains with the person who added these books.

Generally I would say that all books on the list (old and new ones) should be accompanied with a justification, see my example before on the book of Lothar Gall. Electionworld Talk? 06:42, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, I believe your comments are motivated by resentment at the fact that up until now you were completely unaware that such a rich secondary literature existed on the subject of liberalism. Search the books up on amazon.com and read the book descriptions; that, short of actually reading the books for yourself, should give you an idea of the contents. I do not have the time nor the motivation to explicate the value and relevance of the literature in question.--Rubbersoul20 07:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Please remain friendly and assume good faith. I am aware that there is much other literature available, but it is not the purpose of Misplaced Pages to give huge lists of books. BTW, could you please explain me why you deleted the following books:

• Ackerman, Bruce (1992). The Future of Liberal Revolution. New Haven: Yale University Press. ISBN 0-300-05396-7.
• Bobbio, Norberto (1990). Liberalism and Democracy. trans. Martin Ryle and Kate Soper. London: Verso. ISBN 0-86091-269-8.
• Hall, John A. (1988). Liberalism: Politics, Ideology, and the Market. London: Paladin Grafton. ISBN 0-586-08579-3.
• Hayek, Friedrich A. (1978) . The Constitution of Liberty. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. ISBN 0-226-32084-7.
• Holmes, Stephen (1993). The Anatomy of Antiliberalism. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press. ISBN 0-674-03180-6.
• Hallowell, John H. (1943). The Decline of Liberalism as an Ideology with Particular Reference to German Politico-legal Thought. Berkeley: University of California Press.
• von Mises, Ludwig (1985) . ]. trans. Ralph Raico. New York: Foundation for Economic Education. ISBN 0-930439-23-6. {{cite book}}: URL–wikilink conflict (help)
• Rothbard, Murray N. (1979) . Left and Right: The Prospects for Liberty (PDF). San Francisco: Cato Institute. ISBN 0-932790-00-3.
• Webb, Adam K. (2006). Beyond the Global Culture War. New York: Routledge. ISBN 0-415-95312-X.

Some of them were books I added in the past (Ackerman, Bobbio, Hall). Electionworld Talk? 09:00, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Either because they were not (1) published recently; (2) collection of essays; (3) written by either a prominent legal scholar or philosopher (from a selection of 20 or so institutions).... incidentally, bruce ackerman's book is still up there.--Rubbersoul20 17:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

But these criteria were made up by you and not discussed before. It is not a general policy to exclude elder books. Furthermore, who added the elder French books? Sorry, I saw the deletion of Bruce Ackerman's book but missed that it was re-added. Yes I do not know all the books, but could you explain which of these books fit in the theme of the article. Are not some of these books concentrated on Liberalism in the USA? I still do not know why these books are relevant for the article. You added them soy you should explain. Electionworld Talk? 21:39, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the selections need to be (individually) justified. This section on the whole is non-standard for a WP article and it's obvious that there are differences of opinion on its content. I feel like on the whole you've reasonably answered that these books fit the criteria that you find important; you've not answered why that is important to the article. In that a section of this length, and moreso with this sort of content, is not common in WP I feel like asking for such justification is well within reason.

I still don't understand why collections of literature in other languages which are not pivotal to the development of liberalism should be included here. Any takers on that one? Scott.wheeler 23:31, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

You may re-add the older books if you wish. The reason I excluded them is for reasons of space. Many of the collection of essays books include a wide range of essays by international scholars. Also, many of the essays included in these collections date back to the early part of the 20th century, although, it is true, a majority of them were written after the 1970s.--Rubbersoul20 22:40, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Please anwer the first question of Scott.wheeler. The selection need to be individually justified. BTW, I do not see objections to the last two books you added, since the titles suggest what the justification is. Electionworld Talk? 07:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Visit these links to read a short description of the books on the list.

• http://www.amazon.com/Liberalism-New-Century-E-J-Dionne/dp/0520250710
• http://www.amazon.com/Liberalism-Old-Social-Philosophy-Policy/dp/0521703050
• http://www.amazon.com/Challenge-Liberty-Classical-Liberalism-Today/dp/1598130021
• http://www.amazon.com/Society-Liberalism-Political-Development-American/dp/1558494936
• http://www.amazon.com/Autonomy-Challenges-Liberalism-New-Essays/dp/0521839513
• http://www.amazon.com/Neoliberalism-Critical-Reader-Alfredo-Saad-Filho/dp/0745322980
• http://www.amazon.com/Liberalism-Classical-Ludwig-Von-Mises/dp/0865975868/ref=sr_1_2/103-1513708-2463032?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187754683&sr=1-2
• http://www.amazon.com/Varieties-Feminist-Liberalism-Constructions/dp/0742512037/ref=sr_1_1/103-1513708-2463032?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187754718&sr=1-1
• http://www.amazon.com/Political-Liberalism-Variations-Shaun-Young/dp/0791461750/ref=sr_1_1/103-1513708-2463032?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187754741&sr=1-1
• http://www.amazon.com/Politics-Belonging-Nationalism-Liberalism-Pluralism/dp/0739108263/ref=sr_1_1/103-1513708-2463032?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187754764&sr=1-1
• http://www.amazon.com/Achievement-American-Liberalism-Deal-Legacies/dp/0231112130/ref=sr_1_1/103-1513708-2463032?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187754792&sr=1-1
• http://www.amazon.com/Racial-Liberalism-Politics-Urban-America/dp/0870136690/ref=sr_1_1/103-1513708-2463032?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187754813&sr=1-1
• http://www.amazon.com/Searching-New-Liberalism-Perspectives-Prospects/dp/0889627975/ref=sr_1_1/103-1513708-2463032?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187754833&sr=1-1
• http://www.amazon.com/Globalization-Liberalism-Millennium-Elvind-Hovden/dp/0333724755/ref=sr_1_2/103-1513708-2463032?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187754852&sr=1-2
• http://www.amazon.com/Liberalism-Critical-Concepts-Political-Science/dp/0415223571/ref=sr_1_1/103-1513708-2463032?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187754871&sr=1-1
• http://www.amazon.com/New-Liberalism-Reconciling-Liberty-Community/dp/0521790832/ref=sr_1_1/103-1513708-2463032?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187754892&sr=1-1
• http://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Liberalism-War-Rethinking-Democratic/dp/1555879551/ref=sr_1_1/103-1513708-2463032?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187754914&sr=1-1
• http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Neoliberalism-Institutional-Analysis/dp/0691070873/ref=sr_1_1/103-1513708-2463032?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187755002&sr=1-1
• http://www.amazon.com/Edinburgh-Companion-Contemporary-Liberalism/dp/1579583393
• http://www.amazon.com/Idea-Political-Liberalism-Studies-Philosophy/dp/0847687937/ref=sr_1_1/103-1513708-2463032?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187755080&sr=1-1
• http://www.amazon.com/Meaning-Liberalism-East-West/dp/9639116548/ref=sr_1_1/103-1513708-2463032?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187755104&sr=1-1
• http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?r=1&ean=9780754610533
• http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780281053612&itm=1
• http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780792366409&itm=1--Rubbersoul20 14:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

SO you want us to do your work. It is easy, you add, so you justify. Electionworld Talk? 20:25, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd be happy to search out good reviews/brief descriptions for each of the books. I'll post them up whenever they're available. --Rubbersoul20 22:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone know of any liberal encyclopedias or wikis out there?

I only know of one encyclowiki with a political slant, and it's the conservative Conservapedia. — Rickyrab | Talk 04:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

You're talking in one ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.74.247.173 (talk) 21:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Conservapedia isn't conservative, it's Christianist. There's a difference.Heqwm (talk) 06:10, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Can the lead-in text be improved?

The current lead-in text reads as so:

This article discusses liberalism as a worldwide political ideology, its roots and development, and some of its many modern-day variations, including American, European, classical, and modern traditions. The local meaning of the term "liberalism" may differ greatly between countries; see the entries listed in Liberalism worldwide. For other uses, see Liberal (disambiguation).

The first sentence is rather long-winded, while lead-in text on other pages is almost always quite concise. The second sentence links, but the primary meaning of the word for the primary userbase (the United States) is modern American liberalism, which is even omitted from the lead-in text to "Liberalism worldwide", with the real article squirreled away in corners of userboxes and buried at the ends of longwided paragraphs. Even if you arrive at Liberalism in the United States, there's still another link to go before you arrive at the article Modern liberalism in the United States.

I realise that Misplaced Pages policy requires a worldwide viewpoint, but I imagine countless people looking up "liberal" after hearing the term in the media and being confused or rebuffed by this maze of links. Can't a better lead-in text be written? --Jonathan Drain 13:26, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

This was a text developped in a long time. One could make an effort, but I doubt it will help. BTW, since when is there a primary userbase. This is not an American encyclopedia, it is not an British encyclopedia, it is a worldwide English-language encyclopedia in a world where English is the mian lingua franca. Electionworld Talk? 15:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Right to Life a Neo-Con View

... there are some rights that all liberals support, including rights to life, liberty, and property.

What about abortion?? I think that's a universal lib view. The right to life ideas are held by fascist conservatives. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.74.247.173 (talk) 21:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

So the right to life is a liberal idea until it's held by conservatives, then it's a fascist one?rasqual 12:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

The usage in the classic quotation is different from the usage in the modern slogan. Rick Norwood 14:23, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Instead of propagating misinformation, if you do your homework you will learn that Fascism was actually a left wing ideology. Hitler was a socialist, and hated Communism partly because it was created by a Jew, Karl Marx. He disliked the fact that all the socialists at the time were turning Communist. What do you think Nazi means? All that Fascism is is socialism mixed with nationalism and dictatorship. As for "Right to Life," this is in our Declaration of Independence. What constitutes life, when it starts, etc., is something that the society should decide, not 12 unelected people on a bench. This is what conservatives believe, and what our whole nation believed at one time.76.215.47.190 (talk) 00:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Please add Azerbaijani link

Hi there, Would you add Azerbaijani link to this article? http://az.wikipedia.org/Liberalizm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aydyol (talk • contribs) 00:26, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

governmental neutrality

This section is about how liberal governments aren't supposed to tell people how to live a good life. It's said that the US declaration of independence conforms to such neutrality by allowing the pursuit of happiness. However, this is not a neutral stance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.206.112.162 (talk) 12:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

This article is about liberalism as a philosophy and a political theory. Naturally, when that philosophy is applied in the real world in various countries and at various times, it will be applied in different ways. There is also the problem that not everyone who claims to be liberal really is. Rick Norwood 13:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Bibliography, Revisited (moving to a separate article)

Just starting this in a new header since it's been a while and I didn't want this to go unnoticed. At this point, with the continued additions, the bibliography is not just huge, but it would actually be quite long for a separate article. Unless there are major objections I'll be moving the content to Additional reading on Liberalism. (For what it's worth, the most recent additions are more in line with what I would have expected to see there in the first place.)

Scott.wheeler 02:15, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with what you have said. For that reason I have created the Additional reading on Liberalism article you suggested. I have however been recently notified that such an article is un-encyclopedic and that it does not conform to the standards of wikipedia. I therefore find myself in a rut. Any suggestions? --Rubbersoul20 (talk) 02:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The objections there are similar to my own on it being part of the liberalism article, but because of discussion here I'm going to remove the prod tag and suggest that if the person that put the prod there wants to follow through on deletion that this go to AfD (where a link to the previous discussion could be given for context).

To be honest though, I still feel like the current list in this article is way, way too long. It's still longer than a lot of full-fledged articles and I feel like just having the foreign language content at the new article is more likely to get it deleted. If this does go to AfD at least as a side effect it will generate some discussion from those not involved with this article. Scott.wheeler (talk) 04:01, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe a separate article could work if done right. Liberalism as political ideology is defined by the texts that originally advocated or described it. As such, some texts are important and encyclopedic because they define liberalism. Instead of Additional reading on Liberalism, maybe you could have Defining Liberalist literature worldwide. Carewolf (talk) 10:11, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Alan.  :-) Yep, we've been through that. My original objection to the list was based on these not being defining texts. I later found Contributions to liberal theory which is pretty close to what you're suggesting. Scott.wheeler (talk) 10:48, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

"Liberalism as political ideology is defined by the texts that originally advocated or described it." (Alan) I would have to disagree with the aforementioned. 'Liberalism' is not something that was set in stone once and for all in the distant past. Rather, it is something that is constantly being reshaped by the ongoing discourses surrounding it. It seems to me that when it comes to liberalism it is treacherous waters to seek to establish a canon: liberalism being not an agreed-upon set of pre-established doctrines but a climate of opinion and practices. --Rubbersoul20 (talk) 07:03, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

How about moving Liberalism/Additional reading on Liberalism‎ to List of books about liberalism? Aecis 15:58, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Confusing Intoduction

I did not know exactly what liberalism was and I was still left wondering what it meant after reading the first few sentences in this article. I had to look elsewhere for a better definition. I think the introduction needs to be re-written. yettie0711 (talk) 17:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

It would help if you explained more fully what you do not understand. Liberalism supports individual liberty: freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, and the right to vote in open and fair democratic elections. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Latvian under languages

Please add this under languages lv:Liberālisms, thanks. 91.142.9.194 (talk) 16:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Additional reading on Liberalism

Following the AFD of Additional reading on liberalism, the list of sources has been moved to a subpage of this article - Liberalism/Additional reading. This should allow it to continue to be useful as a tool to improve this article while keeping it out of the standard "article space". Neıl ☎ 13:17, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah - I won't add it to the article myself, but there's no rules about not linking to it somewhere in a "see also" section or something similar. I leave it up to you guys as to whether that's appropriate. Neıl ☎ 19:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

economic coercion and general welfare

Economic coertion is not the same as exonomic constraints. Everyone is subject to economic constraints -- in the long run, we can't spend more than we earn. Economic coertion exists when the rich give the poor the choice "obey or starve". Less severe examples are bosses who require their workers to vote for a certain candidate or who fire whistle blowers.

The pharse "general welfare" appears in the preamble to the US consitution, and refers to the duty of the government to promote the welfare of all people (the general) rather than only the welfare of well-connected people.

Rick Norwood (talk) 16:45, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

When a boss does as you said, coercion exists. And, importantly, one can identify a tangible coercer. In what you describe as "obey or starve" the same is true, assuming there is a tangible coercer who would impose starvation (say, withhold food from a prisoner, or imprison someone for the purpose of starving them because they refused to obey). Nothing like this exists in the subject at hand.

A person can be coerced by starvation, or alternatively, a person may starve due to their inability to obtain food while essentially free (like the videos we have all seen from Africa from time to time). This difference is huge. It is the difference between starvation (tragic) and murder by starvation (tragic and criminal). And the difference is easily identifiable: there is a tangible coercer or there is not. To say the "rich" give the "poor" this choice and that it amounts to coercion assumes that the "poor" have no possible way of obtaining food other than as a gift from the rich. It implicitly assumes that the food supply is fixed and that the poor producing his own food is not possible. I think what you are outlining amounts to "not sharing."

If you want to replace "coercion" with something like "the failure of the rich to share" then I think we could agree nicely. The word coercion is just way too strong, and anything but politically neutral.

As for general welfare:

I am familiar with the preamble. Its meaning has been widely debated. But here we debate the definition of Liberalism, not the meaning of the Constitution.

The meaning of the word general, I agree, does refer to all the people. And you yourself have said, the "well-connected" should not be singled out by a government for special benefits. It should be trivial for you to agree that if the "poorly-connected" are singled out for special benefits, it also should not be called "general" welfare. In the article, the phrase we debate is followed by a litany of references to current government programs that single out the poor for special benefits.

We are not debating whether these programs ought to exist or not. That would be a political debate. Here we should discuss the meaning of the word "general."

The word general means general. To invoke the Constitution at this point in the article invites a whole other debate, and probably should occur elsewhere in the encyclopedia. It smacks of "slipping something in" that doesn't necessarily belong here, which is a big part of why I changed it.

Rogimoto (talk) 17:58, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The way libertarians use words is not the way most people use words, and larding articles with libertarian usages only obscures the point for non-libertarian readers.

At the present time, in the United States, the Liberals and the Socialists have formed an alliance, as have the Conservatives and the Libertarians. But this article is not about the situation in the United States today, but rather about what "liberalism" means in the larger, historical context.

The solution to most of the points on which we disagree is to delete the disputed sentence entirely. None of them say anything that is not elsewhere in the article. In fact, reading through the article from beginning to end, what strikes me most is that it makes the same points over and over, with each side trying to get in the last word. I've cut considerable repetition. Both sides have their views represented. There is no need to beat the reader over the head. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:47, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate your effort to make the article more neutral. I don't have any major disagreement at this time

Your accusation of "larding" is a bit over the top, given that we only discussed 2 words. And it implies that your preferred wording is just fine, but mine is larding. That's neither intellectually fair, nor accurate.

You are one smart feller, but even idiots like me know stuff, like words mean what they mean.

Rogimoto (talk) 18:49, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

"Words mean what they mean." I totally agree. Rick Norwood (talk) 20:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about libertarians, but in this discussion, I have advocated for the literal, dictionary use of words. If one wants to discuss the way "most" people use words, where shall we look; the dictionary or the ivory tower? Rogimoto (talk) 15:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The implication of your "ivory tower" comment is that educated people use words one way, while ordinary people use words another way. This is certainly true, but the educated use is apt to be much closer to the dictionary use than the usage of ordinary people. Webster's Dictionary tried to publish a non-prescriptive dictionary, which reported (correctly) that ordinary people use "imply" as a synonym for "infer". The trouble with this is that it makes it harder for people to understand one another. Better, I think, to stick to the usage in, say, Merriam-Webster. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The "implication" that you took didn't exist. Ivory tower is a straight-forward reference to a disconnected perspective. But I guess what you really wanted to say is how educated you think you are. God, I hope you got it out of your system. It was awkward reading as you embarrassed yourself so badly.

Thanks for your little dictionary anecdote. It didn't apply to our discourse, of course, but it brought back memories of junior high school. You probably could have looked up "ivory tower" in either of your 2 dictionaries and significantly improved your understanding. While you're at it, look up the spelling of coercion, my educated friend. (I NEVER mention people's online spelling, but I just couldn't help myself, you being so educated and all. I'm sure you'll forgive me this one transgression.)

Now that I've had to help you understand my reference to the "ivory tower," it is easy to see what allowed you to think you could state how "most" people use words without a hint of evidence or knowledge (that's what educated people use, isn't it?). You were willing to abuse the language and then hide behind a truly mindless "most people" excuse.

You might want to look up "humility" in Merriam-Webster OR Webster's. Either one will be very helpful to you.

Rogimoto (talk) 20:18, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for correcting my spelling. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

You are most welcome. I will always be here for you. Rogimoto (talk) 00:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Ntrlrghts!??

That heading catched your attention, didn't it? Now, the article is unclear about natural rights vs. utilitarianism. Did some major liberal contingency claim natural rights as a basis for liberal moral, or did the opponents of liberalism claim natural rights? The article should preferrably be clearer of who proponed what, especially in the section "Natural rights vs. utilitarianism". Said: Rursus ☻ 10:22, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

"A man said to the universe, 'Sir, I exist.'

'However,' replied the universe, 'That does not instill in me a sense of obligation.'"

-- Crane

There are no "natural rights". There are constitutional rights, there are traditional rights, but natural rights? -- that's just political rhetoric. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:46, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

One doesn't have the right to health care, because that implies that someone else must give it to you. One could say that your only rights are those you can protect and defend. However, one could also say that just because your government does not protect your rights or oblige you your rights does not mean that you don't have them. They would say that your rights are being violated. Unfortunately, people have been misinformed about what "Rights" mean. On top of that, others have added this loaded word "privilege" into the discussion. If the government IS the people, then the government does not bestow rights. It certainly does not bestow privileges. It protects rights, and rights come with responsibility.76.215.47.190 (talk) 00:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

"With great power comes great responsibility."

-- Stan Lee

Note that the duality is power/responsibility not rights/responsibility. A "right" is something given to me by someone else -- and that someone else has the power to give it. If I have power, then I can take what I want, I don't need someone else to give it to me.

As an American, I have certain constitutional rights: freedom of speech, freedom of worship, freedom of the press, right to assemble, right to petition, right to call for a referendum, right to bear arms. As a worker, I have contractual rights with my employer.

As a voter, I have the power, working collectively with other voters, to demand schools for our children, highways for us to drive on, health care for those who cannot afford it. I have the power to insist that taxes be collected to pay for these services. Thanks to the 16th ammendment, people do not have the right to refuse to pay these taxes.

But it simplifies the discussion if we don't confuse power with rights. Rick Norwood (talk) 15:02, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Liberalism as a pejorative

I was wondering if this article has room for a section on the word liberal so often being used as a catch all derogatory word by many media outlets and news analysts. Seems as if, even though it was a trend started by Fox News, it has become a taboo, as many democratic presidential candidates have tried to avoid the description. I came to the article looking for the basis of the word being used as a casual and accepted pejorative, but there isn't any direct information. Seems like a relevant subject. Navis999 (talk) 11:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

This subject is covered in Modern liberalism in the United States. This article is more historical in its focus. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:28, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

ah, thanks. Navis999 (talk) 09:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC) how do we do that —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.118.10.241 (talk) 20:30, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Third Paragraph Has Been Maliciously Altered

The 3rd paragraph originally referred to rejection of "state religion" as defined by Misplaced Pages, but was changed to say rejection of "established religion" while maintaining a link to "state religion". Rejecting established religion means something very different to most people than rejecting the concept of a state religion. "Established religion" is even ambiguous in scholarly language. It could mean a religion established by the state, in certain contexts, but it could also mean institutional religion in general. I ask the administrators if they would kindly edit it to say what it means and replace "established religion" with the linked term "State Religion". The inference that many people will make after reading the current wording, that liberals reject all institutional religion, is blatently unfair to liberals by creating a false and negative impression. MaskedWoman (talk) 14:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by MaskedWoman (talk • contribs) 11:37, 30 June 2008 (UTC) MaskedWoman (talk) 14:21, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Your objection would be more appropriate in the "simple english" Misplaced Pages. While it may be true that many readers do not know what "established religion" means, a click on the phrase will take them to the correct meaning, "state religion". Here is what "What You Should Know About Politics...But Don't", an excelent non-partisan reference, says. First, quoting the Constitution of the United States, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The author goes on to say, "The first part of that sentence is called the establishment clause." It's a usage everyone should understand, even if many people don't. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:47, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Recent major edits

Recent major and rapid edits have destroyed not only the meaning but also the grammar. This is, and has always been, a problem with this article, as people on one side or the other try to change the article to reflect their own POV. I'm going to try to fix things back the way they were, without resorting to a blanket revert. Please keep in mind that this article is not about modern American liberalism, nor about the modern American conservative's view of liberalism, nor about the Libertarian view of liberalism. Discuss major changes here. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:00, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the most blatantly POV material, but kept almost all of the referenced material, and done a minor rewrite for grammar and style. Keep in mind that the lede should be short, and details should be added in the appropriate subsections below. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:19, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't like how it is now. It was better before, but still not good, for example it was as you note too long. I suggest this:

Liberalism is a broad array of related ideas and theories of government that consider individual liberty to be the most important political goal. Liberalism emphasizes individual rights and equality of opportunity. Different forms of liberalism may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for a number of principles, including extensive freedom of thought and speech, limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market or mixed economy, and a transparent system of government. All liberals — as well as some adherents of other political ideologies — support some variant of the form of government known as liberal democracy, with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law.

Modern liberalism has its roots in the Age of Enlightenment. It rejected many foundational assumptions that dominated most earlier theories of government, such as the Divine Right of Kings, hereditary status, and established religion. Social progressivism, the belief that traditions do not carry any inherent value and social practices ought to be continuously adjusted for the greater benefit of humanity, is a common component of liberal ideology. Liberalism is also strongly associated with the belief that human society should be organized in accordance with certain unchangeable and inviolable rights.

And we move the discussion of different types into the article. Howzat? --OpenFuture (talk) 08:54, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Your version sounds good to me, except for the last two sentences. The next to last sentence does not sound very "liberal" to me, and the last sentence seems to me to repeat what has already been said earlier. I agree that we need something at the end. How about:

While many earlier writers, Marcus Aurelius for example, wrote about freedom as a major political ideal, the philosophy of liberalism is usually credited to John Locke. The United States of America was the first nation founded on Locke's liberal principles.

Or something to that effect. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:35, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. --OpenFuture (talk) 21:43, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

but don´t Liberals eat small children for breakfast? And don´t they smoke the flag and the constitution and make abortions every five minutes...? After all: they´re atheists and so they don´t have any values! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.175.12.147 (talk) 16:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Somebody pls clean that mess up!

Compare it to the liberalism articles in *any* other language on wikipedia. Usually these articles vary from 20-30kBytes of text and sum it all up! This page is about 200kBytes with 10 sub-articles expanding it into the megabytes. Of course, all contradicting each other! Do yourself a favour: Delete all that crap! And translate the french one (for example). Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.33.72.5 (talk) 21:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

No. Expand the French article. Liberalism is one of the most important political philosophies in the world. When Locke first proposed it, there were no liberal democracies in the world. Now, there are many. France is one. Liberty, equality, fraternity! Rick Norwood (talk) 19:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

You will face some massive "undos" when you try to add that redneck crap to the wikipedia in any other language. Thank god there is still education out there. 91.33.100.134 (talk) 10:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

So, anyone who thinks Locke is a major philosopher and liberalism an important philosophy is a redneck. This is a definition of "redneck" with which I am unfamiliar. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:42, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Anyone mixing liberalism up with things like abortion or military aspects is a redneck yes. He confuses liberalism with the party-programm of one of the major US parties.194.55.1.242 (talk) 07:25, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The lead

Valois bourbon has attempted a number of strongly POV edits in this article and others. As a particularly egregious example, consider the following attempt to edit a direct quote: Protecting the rights of minorities flows naturally from liberal policy, which seeks to ensure equal opportunities for everyone which is actually an impossibility because you can't take from one to give to another without trampling on some-body's rights The phrase beginning ...which is actually an impossibility... was inserted into the quote by Valois bourbon. Rick Norwood (talk) 19:16, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

You are talking about someone else's edit, please remove it wherever it is. But don't delete information about classical liberalism, which is both the foundational liberalism and what is generally understood as liberalism except in North America.Valois bourbon (talk) 21:22, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Classical liberalism began with Locke, and was first put into practical political form by Thomas Jefferson. The French revolution was based, initially, on classical liberal ideals. The right to property has been an important part of liberalism from the beginning, but it is not the whole story. When Jefferson changed Locke's "life, liberty, and property" to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", he took classical liberalism in a new direction. When you describe the Dutch liberal conservatives as wanting both lower taxes and legal cannabis, you are showing how the two strains of classical liberalism: individual freedom and small government, can work together (unlike in the US, where they fight like cats in a sack). As for me talking about "someone else's edit", when you reverted my edit, instead of changing the parts you didn't like, you made it your edit. A great deal of my edit, which you reverted, was fixing mistakes in grammar and usage. Let's see if we can't work together, instead of at cross purposes. Rick Norwood (talk) 23:26, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Removing information about history and relation to free trade, etc. does not seem like "fixing mistakes in grammar and usage". Liberalism is credited for being a foundational force in the birth of modern capitalism, leftists even use "liberal" as a synonym for "laissez-faire"/"right-wing". Valois bourbon (talk) 13:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The changes to the lead by Valois bourbon include substitution of an un-referenced paragraph for material that is referenced. I note that the current lead has been worked out following considerable discussion on this page. So let's agree on the changes here before getting into further edit warring. Rick Norwood has made a reasonable request, IMO. Valois, would you be willing to proceed as he has outlined? Sunray (talk) 14:43, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You inserted a reference in the intro that suggest the reader to "compare" to a "Martin Luther's speech" (which is not even about liberalism). Sorry, suggesting the reader to do his own research is blatant Misplaced Pages:Original research. Valois bourbon (talk) 15:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You also inserted a paragraph that says social liberals support things like "right to education" (any political movement probably does, but political movements have differences on methods) and "minimum wage" (European social liberals tend to not have such demands as there's often no minimum wage laws at all, instead they often want to expand corporatist policies to manipulate wages). Unsurprisingly, the only reference is about "American liberalism". Such detailed specific positions are best left to the main article.Valois bourbon (talk) 16:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I prefer the version here: It says the same things, but shorter and doesn't start to blabber about different forms of liberalism in the intro. Good argument for not reverting it is needed. ;) --OpenFuture (talk) 19:50, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I prefer it too, as you see, that is the version I reverted to. The lead should NOT go on to details about specific positions in specific countries ("minimum wage", etc.).Valois bourbon (talk) 14:29, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Note to Valois bourbon: The reference is to Martin Luther King, not Martin Luther. Anyone interested in political science should be aware of this speech. The "I have a dream" speech was about the liberal ideal of equality. The ideal of a liberal education was opposed throughout history by some people, and is still opposed by many Libertarians today, on the grounds that they should not be taxed to pay for the education of someone elses kids. I don't understand your reference to the "main article". This is the main and introductory article on liberalism.

Note to OpenFuture: I assume you mean a good argument for not reverting *to* it. I'll take a look and see if I agree or not. Rick Norwood (talk) 17:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Note to Valois bourbon: your strong belief that economic freedom, not individual freedom, is the cornerstone of liberalism is certainly one belief held by liberals. But it is not the only belief held by liberals, and it is not a belief held by all liberals. Many liberals see the coercive power of wealth as a threat to individual freedom. Another serious problem is the many errors in grammar and usage. There have been so many edits in the past twenty-four hours, both by you and by others, that the article is full of mistakes. Please, slow down and write carefully. Everybody makes mistakes, but when we rush, we tend to make more mistakes. My inclination at this point is to throw out all recent changes, and revert to the version OpenFuture prefers. But, instead I'll take a close look at both versions before acting precipitously. Rick Norwood (talk) 20:50, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Having carefully read both, the current version and the version preferred by OpenFuture share the quality of seeming to have been written by a committee. They argue with themselve and repeat themselves. Sigh. I will try to keep the parts that Valois bourbon considers essential (that Liberalism owes at least as much to Adam Smith as to John Locke) but correct the grammar and eliminate the repetition. Rick Norwood (talk) 20:56, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I've moved the most contentious and repetitious discussions out of the lede and into their respective sections, where I often found the same ideas repeated. I've tried to improve grammar and reduce repetition. If someone wants to change the lede further, I ask that they please don't repeat what is already said below. Rick Norwood (talk) 21:11, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The lead its pretty good now, I think. --OpenFuture (talk) 11:13, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Valois bourbon edit

I've been trying to work with Valois bourbon, as have several other editors, but his latest edit is so full of errors that I suggest we simply take turns reverting his edits until he slows down and checks his facts. For example, this from his most recent edit to this article: "The English philosopher John Locke says the first modern liberal state was the United States of America," John Locke died in 1704! Rick Norwood (talk) 12:47, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Valois: You need to become less confrontative, less dogmatic and more constuctive in your edits. --OpenFuture (talk) 11:15, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Bad references

The lead has a reference "Paul Starr, The New Republic, March 2007". This is not sufficient: it does tell which New Republic magazine or article title/page number. Neither is an American left-wing magazine such a scholarly source that would represent a reliable description of the global social liberalism, which is different from American notions.Valois bourbon (talk) 13:11, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

The claim that the United States is the first liberal state is also a bit controversial; if the lead has space for it, then the far more important role of liberalism in the birth of modern capitalism definitely deserves to be mentioned.Valois bourbon (talk) 13:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

To find out "which" New Republic magazine, click on your own link. To find out which issue, as in your own post, March 2007. To find out which page number, look up the Paul Starr article in the table of contents. Your objections are frivolous. But your second sentence is telling...you won't believe what a left-wing magazine says it believes, rather what right wingers think left-wingers really believe. That is not what Misplaced Pages is all about. Rick Norwood (talk) 15:26, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

It is not a scholarly source and presumably talks about American "social liberalism" which has nothing do with global "social liberalism". I suggest the version favored by the user OpenFuture, which leaves the intro free of social liberalism for a good reason (there's no good short description and it even is unclear whether it's a part of liberalism at all).Valois bourbon (talk) 23:55, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Valois bourbon's edits are growing more extreme, rather than less. I've just reverted edits that claim liberalism is a synonym for left-wing and left-wing means socialist or communist. The clear implication is that all liberals are socialists or communists. If there are any other people here who are liberals but not socialists nor communists, I'd appreciate a little help in getting Valois's rapid edits under control. Rick Norwood (talk) 15:36, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

You have been told this many times before, but once again: American use of the word "liberal" is opposite to that in the rest of the world. In most parts of the world, the word "liberal" refers to right-wing politics. Actually, the left even uses the word "liberal" as a pejorative word for "right-wing". You keep inserting non-sense claims such as "economic liberals call themselves classical liberals": many liberal movements are both culturally and economically liberal, more information can be found one click away and other editors should not need to repeat these facts endlessly.Valois bourbon (talk) 23:49, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

As I've said before, if you want to comment about what "liberal" means in Europe, then restrict your claims to European usage, put them in a subsection or subarticle, and reference them. What "liberal" means in Europe is very different from what "liberal" means in, for example, Iran. As for your other claims, I am careful to support my edits with quotes from books that cover world politics, not just American politics.

On the specific point of where and when economic liberals call themselves classical liberals, I'll do some research and get back to you. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Ludwig von Mises is one example of an Austrian who, in 1923, used "classical liberalism" to mean "economic liberalism", with the implication that this was standard usage at the time. Modern reviews of his books are a delightful Alice-in-Wonderland mix of assertions that liberalism used to mean social liberalism but now means economic liberalism, assertions that liberalism used to mean economic liberalism but now means social liberalism, and all kinds of assumptions about what liberalism "really" means. Liberalism means what the dictionary says it means. Any other assertion leads to a failure to communicate. In any case, von Mises is an example that shows my assertion that (some) economic liberals outside the US call themselves classic liberals is not "non-sense". Rick Norwood (talk) 17:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I have removed some statements from the lead; the statements and my reasons for removing them are as follows: 1. "The first modern liberal state was the United States of America."

Who makes this claim? The reference given was Paul E. Sigmund, editor, The Selected Political Writings of John Locke. Locke could not have made this claim because he died before the US was established. Does Paul E. Sigmund make the claim? Then it should not be included in the lead, since Sigmund is certainly not a prominent theoretician of liberalism.

2. "...founded on the principle that 'all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to insure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.'"

What does this have to do with liberalism? Thomas Jefferson does not mention liberalism in the Declaration of Independence. If someone else claims that these are liberal principles, cite that other person, not Jefferson.

3. "Pioneers of liberalism such as Adam Smith conceptualized free markets, free trade, invisible hand, spontaneous order..."

Adam Smith never used the term "spontaneous order," and the "invisible hand" is not a concept supported by all liberals. -- Nikodemos (talk) 06:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The first two references were added to the article by me. Clearly the claim that the United States was the first liberal democracy was made by the editor, Sigmund, who is the person referenced in the citation. He is a noted scholar -- I don't know what you mean by "a theoretician of liberalism". The claim that the Declaration of Independence lays out the principles of liberalism is so well-known as to hardly require a reference, but many are easily found. For example, from the Encyclopedia Britannica article Declaration of Independence, Jefferson's political theory was that of Locke, whose words the Declaration echoes. This also from that article, quoting Leslie Stephen, "by the Declaration a State, for the first time in history, founded its life on democratic idealism".

Since I did not offer the reference to Adam Smith, I will leave that for others to defend.

Rick Norwood (talk) 14:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Valois bourbon, I am trying to understand your purpose in editing these articles. You challenge material that is totally unexceptionable. Either you do not know history, or you choose to try to rewrite history to agree with your worldview. I would really like to understand which. There is a body of knowledge, hard won over centuries of effort, which is now generally accepted everywhere in the world, except by special interest groups. In brief, we can say that standard English language sources for this knowledge include the Oxford English Dictionary, the Encyclopedia Britannica, The World Almanac, and most university level textbooks. If you like, I can give you an list of standard reference works in French. Now, you often reject this body of knowledge, by reverting Misplaced Pages entries that reflect it. If it is because you are unaware of this body of knowledge, then you need to do considerably more reading before you edit Misplaced Pages. If you are aware of this body of knowledge but reject it, then you need to state what standards of knowledge you do accept. You can't pick and choose, accepting the parts you like and rejecting the parts you don't like. Rick Norwood (talk) 21:41, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Liberals and free markets

The intro said that all liberals believe in free markets. That's clearly not the case, as can be seen with what are called liberals in America. From the Encyclopedia Britannica article I sourced discussing "modern liberalism": "Liberals asserted that the rewards dispensed by the free market were too crude a measure of the contribution most people made to society and that the free market ignored the needs of those who lacked opportunity or who were economically exploited. They contended that the enormous social costs incurred in production were not reflected in market prices and that resources were often used wastefully. Not least, liberals perceived that the free market biased the allocation of human and physical resources toward the satisfaction of consumer appetites—e.g., for automobiles, home appliances, or fashionable clothing—while basic needs—e.g., for schools, housing, public transit, and sewage treatment—went unmet. Finally, although liberals believed that prices, wages, and profits should continue to be subject to negotiation among the interested parties and responsive to conventional market pressures, they insisted that price-wage-profit decisions affecting the economy as a whole must be reconciled with public policy...." This article has problems. It's trying to discuss modern liberalism and classical liberalism as the same thing, when they're pretty much opposites. It needs to be broken down to a section on classical, then a section on modern. Many Heads (talk) 07:07, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

The article does not claim that "all" liberals agree about anything. It outlines major liberal beliefs that have remained constant over time, and then outlines several of the main streams of liberal thought today. Most of the liberals I read favor "free markets" in the sense that they oppose government price fixing, trade barriers, and monopolies. On the other hand, they usually favor a minimum wage, trade unions, and pollution control. And individual politicians may call themselves "liberal" and still favor, say, farm subsidies because that gets them votes. I'm a fan of the Britannica, but as you yourself note, that particular article is confused. Our article should be better, and clearly set out the different positions within the liberal sphere. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

No, THIS article on Misplaced Pages is confused, not the Britannica article. The sentence in the intro of this article says "Within liberalism there are various streams of thought which compete over the use of the term "liberal" and may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for a number of principles, including: freedom of thought and speech, limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, an individual's right to private property, free markets, and..." That's just not true. American liberals are not fans of free markets and limited government. They want regulated markets and government control of business. Minimum wage for example are a regulated market. A free market in wages has no minimum wage laws. Many Heads (talk) 18:26, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

• Strongly agree. There appear to be some very confused editors trying to redefine Liberalism as conservatism and to WPO: the article so their errors can't be corrected.Rktect (talk) 05:00, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

If this article is going to represent all "liberalism," then it can't represent all liberalism as classical liberalism. There are very few things on the economic front that classical liberalism and modern American liberalism have in common. Many Heads (talk) 01:23, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

• If regulated markets, government controls and minimum wage laws are what define modern liberals versus classical liberals, than pretty much every single mainstream western political party today supports modern liberalism, including those that call themselves conservative. None of them support a totally laissez-faire capitalist market.Spylab (talk) 23:03, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. But classical liberals do support laissez-faire capitalism. Classical liberals for less government intervention than conservatives, and conservatives are for less than modern liberals. Many Heads (talk) 23:05, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

freedom vs. libertarianism

We need to make a distinction between what liberals say, and what conservatives, for political reasons, pretend liberals say. Mainstream modern liberals favor free markets, because we recognize that free markets lead to prosperity. We oppose big government, because we realize that big government leads to oppression. But our positions tend to be pragmatic rather than absolute. That is, we've got big government, whether we like it or not, and so we want a big government that does not favor the upper class.

As for "free markets", the old rule of fist and face applies. Your right to swing your fist ends where my face begins. Your freedom of enterprise ends when polution from your enterprise blows over your fence into my face.

If you believe that mainstream liberals oppose free markets, cite references. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:32, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Do you have source that modern American liberalism supports laissez-faire? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. What defines New Deal liberalism is government intervention in the economy. Do not modern liberals support minimum wage laws? That's not free market. Do not modern liberals support transfer payments and forced social security? That's not free market. Classical liberals are for free markets. I cited Encylcopedia Britannica above. Do you understand what a free market economy is? It's an economy with little or no government control of people and their money and their businesses. Economic decisions are made by individuals, not the government. Yes, I understand that modern liberalism doesn't support regulation so extensive that it constitutes a planned economy, but they don't want government limited to where there would be a free-market economy either. Many Heads (talk) 18:10, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Modern conservatives (in mainstream Western political parties) also support minimum wage laws, transfer payments and forced social security, or at least they don't openly oppose them. No mainstream Western political party with any hopes for electoral success supports a totally laissez-faire economy.Spylab (talk) 23:07, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but that's conservatives. That's not what we're comparing new liberalism with. With comparing it with classical liberalism. You're right that laissez-faire capitalism is not mainstream, and therefore classical liberalism is not mainstream. Classical liberalism is pretty much the equivalent of libertarianism. Many Heads (talk) 23:09, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

As has been often pointed out, modern liberals and modern conservatives in the United States agree about most things. Note that it was George Bush, usually considered a conservative and supported by the classical liberals, who pushed for nationalizing banks. As early as 2000, right after he was elected, he sent every taxpayer $300 in "free" money. The big differences between liberals and conservatives these past eight years have all involved freedom vs. tradition: freedom of women to get an abortion, freedom of homosexuals to marry, freedom of scientists to report the facts, freedom of parents rather than schools or the courts to decide how their children should be taught religion, freedom of researchers to use stem cells, freedom of soldiers to return home after the tour of duty they signed up for is over. I think on all of these issues, the classical liberals agree with the social liberals.

Now, to the question of whether Libertarianism is mainstream: Libertarianism has never been put into practice in any country at any time. Libertarians have occasionally been elected to office, but rarely, and a Libertarian candidate for president has never gotten more than a small percentage of the vote. My guess is that Libertarians constitute at most a few percent of the population. I'm not sure what percent of the population it takes to be "mainstream" -- how would you answer that question?

Rick Norwood (talk) 13:49, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually it has been put to practice. The U.S. began as a generally libertarian state with minimal intervention in the economy. No forced welfare, no mandatory social security, no compulsory minimum wage, no Federal Reserve, a gold standard which restrained government spending, no income tax, etc. It was also very libertarian on the personal liberty side. For example drugs were legal until around 1914. And businesses had the freedom to decide who they wanted to hire on any basis they wanted. The U.S. is actually the first classical liberal state. Of course much of that freedom has eroded since then. Government control of society is very prevalent now. Many Heads (talk) 20:21, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

This is the kind of thing Libertarians like to say. That it is absolutely false doesn't stop libertarians from saying it. Can a nation with institutionalized chattal slavery be Libertarian? Did slaves have "personal liberty". And, of course, you are also wrong about minimal intervention in the economy. Here is Thomas Jefferson on the subject, "The more debt Hamilton could rake up, the more plunder for his mercenaries. This money, whether wisely or foolishly spent, was pretended to have been spent for general purposes and ought, therefore, to be paid from the general purse." Only, as I'm sure you know, Hamilton won this battle, and Jefferson lost, and the result was a national debt that has grown and grown and grown, as special interests (like Hamilton and his cronies) convinced the Federal Government to give them bushels of free money. Hardly a Libertarian ideal.

As for personal freedom, I am infinitely more free now than I would have been in 1776. Even if I were lucky enough to have been born a landed white male, I could still have been put in the stocks for failing to go to church on Sunday, or jailed for criticizing President Adams (under the alien and sedition acts), or lynched for advocating an end to slavery. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:34, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

The "welfare state".

The phrase "welfare state" is used by opponents of modern liberalism to characterize liberals as favoring people on the dole over working people. This is clearly not what liberals believe. So, let's try spelling out what forms of government regulation modern liberals do believe in that classical liberals oppose. I've put a list into the article. Feel free to add to the list or remove items from the list. But don't claim liberals support the "welfare state" unless you find a major liberal author who says, "Liberals support the welfare state." Schlesinger, who you reference, certainly doesn't say that. He uses the phrase when quoting opponents of liberalism. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:30, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

New liberals certainly are for a welfare state. That's a major part of what defines them. You say you need a major liberal author that says he supports the welfare state. Ok, here you go. The well-known liberal Paul Krugman who wrote Conscience of a Liberal: "It was, in a way, strange for me to be part of the Reagan Administration. I was then and still am an unabashed defender of the welfare state, which I regard as the most decent social arrangement yet devised." from Incidents From My Career, by Paul Krugman, Princeton University Press. And, no, Schlesinger is not quoting opponents of liberalism when he says modern liberals support a welfare state. The Encyclopedia Britannica article also says: "contemporary liberalism has come to represent different things to Americans and Europeans: In the United States it is associated with the welfare-state policies of the New Deal program of Democratic President Franklin D. Roosevelt, whereas in Europe liberals are more commonly conservative in their political and economic outlook." Many Heads (talk) 16:29, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Good quotes. Go with them. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:22, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

• There appears to be an editor removing corrections to this mistaken idea that Liberalism equates to what we call right wing conservatism in the united states.Rktect (talk) 05:03, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

The Britannica source says "contemporary liberalism has come to represent different things to Americans and Europeans: In the United States it is associated with the welfare-state policies of the New Deal program of Democratic President Franklin D. Roosevelt, whereas in Europe liberals are more commonly conservative in their political and economic outlook." It's obviously using the term "conservative" in the American sense, not the European sense because that would be "liberalism" in the European sense..as the source indicates. Many Heads (talk) 23:50, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

That is so wrong on so many levels I almost don't know where to begin. I wouldn't expect Britannica to be that blatently POV. Fearmongering about welfare, from the perspective of buzzwords like "redistrubution of wealth", "communism, and socialism was identified with racist propaganda back in the Reagan era and isn't a phrase that would be used today anywhere in the civilized world. It kind of goes along with other Reagan favorites like gay cancer for AIDS. Discussing the New Deal programs of Roosevelt negatively after they saved the world from the Great Depression is not liberal or conservative its extreme right wing neocon thinktank poisoning of the well. Lets allow that most liberals would take offense at this kind of propaganda and get rid of it.Rktect (talk) 20:34, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Can you be more specific? Rick Norwood (talk) 17:10, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

government control of business

Liberals generally favor laws against monopoly, pollution, and discrimination in hiring. Nobody I know of favors laws against private discrimination -- that is, if I choose not to have any friends who are different from myself, I'm free to make that choice. The only time discrimination becomes a legal issue is when the effect of the discrimination involves interstate commerce. Thus, motels in the South can no longer refuse to rent rooms to Blacks, and employees who conduct their business across state lines cannot refuse to hire Blacks. Note that there are still many "social clubs" and country clubs, where the important business of the state is conducted, which exclude Blacks, women, and Jews.

As for the question of whether conservatives also favor regulating pollution -- some do and some don't, but the big-business conservatives spend a lot of money repealing regulations against pollution. For example, mercury pollution which lowers the IQ of children is now common, thanks for lowered standards pushed through by conservatives. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:36, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Private discrimination just means discrimination in the private sector, as opposed to discrimination in the public sector, i.e. by government. Outlawing a business from from hiring on the basis of race is outlawing private discrimination. About pollution, why do you keep bringing up conservatives? Conservatives are not classical liberals. We're discussing the difference between modern American liberals and classical liberals, not conservatives. Classical liberals are very libertarian. They are for protecting private property rights. That is, they view pollution of an invasion of property like all libertarians. Why a classical liberal would allow you to dump your garbage on someone's property. That doesn't make sense. You need a source for the claim that classical liberals are for allowing pollution. You also need a source for the claim about monopoly. Many Heads (talk) 15:38, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I have created a new page called controversies over the term liberal. This is a major topic over the definition of the term liberal. Please add all controversies dealing with the term liberalism, with reliable sources, to the article controversies over the term liberal. The Misplaced Pages WP:NPOV policy states that a significant minority viewpoint must be introduced into a new article.

Singwaste (talk) 02:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

After reading the Encyclopedia Britannica Online article, and thinking about other books and articles I've read, I think the best approach is to state what social liberals believe and state what classical liberals believe, without going into the question of what these groups do not believe. I'm going to edit the lede accordingly.

Singwaste: I've seen other attempts to move discussion of the issues in an article off the talk page of that article, and in my experience, they don't work well. What often happens is that the disussion fragments, with one group on the new page and another group, arriving to the discussion late, making the same points on the article's talk page. It seems to me best to keep the discussion in one place. Many Heads and I are reasonable people, and are resolving our differences by rational discussion and by quotations from sources. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:45, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

With liberty and justice for all.

In response to a claim that liberalism does not advocate equality.

The foundational documents of liberalism stress both freedom and equality. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."

We know those high ideals were expressed by a man who owned slaves, and that while we are much closer to true equality today, we still have a way to go. Still, one of the two principles that unite liberals is the idea of equality, in the sense of equal rights. The liberal movement has consistently been in that direction, with equality for Negros first, then for women, maybe someday for homosexuals.

By equality, I mean equality before the law -- obviously all men are not equal at birth, but the law should not favor those born with greater advantages. Sometimes equality and freedom conflict. My freedom to own slaves conflicts with the slave's equality under the law. But more often the two ideals are complementary. My equal rights give me the freedom to walk down the sidewalk without the law telling me I must step into the gutter to allow a better man to pass.

Rick Norwood (talk) 14:31, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

How does American modern liberalism square equality under the law with affirmative action? An exception? What are you on about? (talk) 16:36, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Affirmative action is a problem. By its nature, affirmative action favors white Christians over better qualified Asians and Jews, and Blacks over better qualified Whites. It ought to be done away with, on liberal principles. But people who are pragmatic accept that ending affirmative action would result in the distruction of a major American resource, our Ivy League universities. Without affirmative action, the next Freshman class at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton (not to mention M.I.T.) would be entirely Asian. Since the power elite in America are not going to admit that many Asians to the corridors of power, no matter how qualified they are, the result would be a loss of influence, and the sons of presidents and CEO's would simply move down the list until they found a university that was mostly white, with a resulting loss of prestige for the "Ivy League" -- now the "Asian and Jewish" -- schools. Meanwhile, the number of Black's in top schools would drop into the single digits, and instead of the rich and powerful in America being 99% White, they would be 100% White. You may or may not like that idea, but is it worth destroying Harvard and Yale to achieve? Rick Norwood (talk) 14:03, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Another one for you. How about welfare? If wealth is taken from some people and given to others, how is that equality under the law? Modern liberalism in America appears to be a perversion of the original liberal principles or straight out ignoring them. This is why in Europe they don't call it liberalism but socialism, where the "common good" of the collective outweighs the importance of individual liberty and equality under the law. What are you on about? (talk) 15:52, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

This is not a chat room, so I hope the point of this discussion is to find common ground to work toward a better article.

The Constitution of the United States, in listing the reasons why the United States was founded, includes "to promote the general welfare". The idea is not that hard to understand -- a person who is out of work, or diseased, or ignorant, is a threat to the welfare of the nation. Everyone benefits from jobs, health care, and education. Just look around the world, at those nations who provide for their poorer citizens, and those nations who do not, and you tell me where the most freedom is -- not to mention the greatest prosperity. Rick Norwood (talk) 22:03, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

People differ over what policies promote general welfare. Original liberalism believes that equality under the law promotes the general welfare. American modern liberals disagree. And since you bring up economics, the original liberals believed that government not telling people what to do what their money and their business, how much they pay people, and so on, provides more prosperity to the nation, through the "invisible hand" than does government overriding free choice. Modern American liberals disagree, again. And again, this is why it's not referred to liberalism in Europe. Europeans retain the classic meaning of the term. What are you on about? (talk) 23:05, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

The difference is that Libertarians claim an ideal "Original liberalism" that never existed. Modern American and European and Japanese and Canadian and Australian liberals point to a system of free and open government that has been the most successful on the planet. Rick Norwood (talk) 23:42, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Libertarians? We're discussing classical liberals. They believe in equality under the law. Modern American liberals don't. This is clear. What are you on about? (talk) 00:36, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Some people use the phrase "classical liberal" to mean "libertarian". The proper usage would mean followers of John Locke, Adam Smith, and Thomas Jefferson. Your usage seems to mean "opposition to a graduated income tax". If I've misunderstood you, please let me know the sense in which you are using this often misused phrase.

If you do use the phrase to mean opposition to a graduated income tax, then I must point out that Adam Smith, who is usually considered a classical liberal, understood why a graduated income tax was good for the economy, and why our current income tax structure, in which the poor pay a greater percentage of their income in taxes than do the rich, is bad for the economy.

Equality, in this case, can mean two things. It could mean that everyone, rich and poor alike, should pay $3000 a year in taxes (budget divided by population). Or it could mean that everyone, rich and poor alike, pay 15% of their income in taxes (percent needed to balance the budget). The problem with the former model is that it leads to homelessness and starvation, which is bad for everybody. For reasons that a graduated income tax is better for the economy than either of these, I refer you to Wealth of Nations. Rick Norwood (talk) 15:59, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

No, I'm not talking about a graduated income tax. I'm talking about welfare, that is, giving free money to people that don't work but not giving free money to people that do work. That's not equality under the law. This is why classical liberals opposed welfare. And because modern American liberals don't subscribe to the principle of equality under the law, they don't oppose welfare. What are you on about? (talk) 03:43, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Liberals are like marines, they leave no man or woman behind.Rktect (talk) 03:57, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Ah, wellfare. Actually, welfare seldom gives free money to men who do no work these days, or to women unless they have children. They do give food stamps -- should people who are out of work be allowed to starve? And they do give money to help children. They also give limited unemployment benefits to people who loose their jobs.

I suspect that when you and I picture someone who gets financial help from the government, we have a very different picture. I picture an woman with a small child whose husband abandoned her, who works as a waitress, who has to pay taxes on her tips whether she gets any tips or not, and who needs food stamps to keep her child from starving. I imagine your picture is very different. Rick Norwood (talk) 16:39, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't matter who it is. It's not equality under the law. As I said, modern American liberalism doesn't uphold equality under the law as a fundamental ideal. What are you on about? (talk) 23:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Your understanding of "equality" is different from mine. A bank robber might complain that he was not being treated equally with an honest citizen, but different circumstances demand different treatment. You and the welfare mother are treated equally if, in similar circumstances, you receive equal help. Rick Norwood (talk) 23:32, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

That's a perversion of the concept. If I'm wealthy and never am in the position of being poor, I would still be required to pay to sustain a poor person. That's not equality under the law. That's treating two people differently, in pursuit of the American welfare liberal goal of lessening inequality. As the classical liberal Hayek said "From the fact that people are very different it follows that, if we treat them equally, the result must be inequality in their actual position, and that the only way to place them in an equal position would be to treat them differently. Equality before the law and material equality are therefore not only different but are in conflict with each other; and we can achieve either one or the other, but not both at the same time." What are you on about? (talk) 06:32, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Here is the list of "individual rights" liberals support.

The right to be highly taxed. The right to a monopolized health care. The right to a monopolized education system. The right to nationalized, and thus monopolized, industries. The right to pay for someone else' abortion. The right to go on welfare. The right to be in gun-free country/state (well, at least if you're a law abiding citizen).

Please, give me a break. Liberals support having the society work for you. They support no individual rights. The editors who have kept it there are responsible for destroying Misplaced Pages's neutrality.

The funny thing is, though, if your stance truly makes sense, you don't have to lie about it. Since you're obviously lying about liberalism...71.204.61.136 (talk) 00:08, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

You need to distinguish between what liberals actually support, and what conservatives, for political gain, claim that liberals support. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh my bad. Obama will raise taxes, as he said. He might say it's on top 5% of the wealthiest but where do you think that money will come from? Your wallets. So because of him you will have less money. He also wants national health care. He wants to, instead of give school vouchers, give gov't school more money, something that has proven to be completely ineffective in improving students achievements. Many liberals have wanted nationalized industries (or ones highly controlled by gov't) and praise them all the time (New Deal, anything with Jimmy Carter." Obama supported an act where gov't would pay (you would pay) for someone who wanted an abortion. He also supported everything he could to make purchasing/carrying a loaded firearm impossible, so he is anti-gun. These aren't claims. This is solid fact. I could not make a list this bad with republicans that would be this anti-individual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.204.61.136 (talk) 00:59, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

No, because of Obama I will have more money. And so will you. Your "solid facts" are memes you've picked up from conservative propaganda. Their goal is to convince the poor to vote in favor of the rich, instead of in their own self-interest. If they were "solid facts", you would be able to document them, and they would properly form part of this article. Rick Norwood (talk) 21:28, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Everything I just said has been preached by Obama himself, and can also be proven by looking at his voting record. There is no need to document it. Do I need to document that he was the most liberal Senator as well? These facts have nothing to do with a propaganda machine. Republicans don't even ahve propaganda machines because you don't need propaganda to achieve individual rights whereas you do need it to set laws that take rights away from people (such as the ones mentioned in my earlier paragraph). There is nothing liberals support that gives more power to the individual. Actually, legalization of drugs, keeping abortion legal (but not make the gov't pay for it), and allowing anyone to be married are the only liberal rights I would support bc they give power to the individual but laws that take your money away and drive away incentives for entrepreneurship and even make it hard for you to arm yourself (wtf?) are anti individual. Therefore, this article should be changed so readers know that liberals, or at least liberal in America, are for bigger gov't and against individual (it's impossible to be for both).71.204.61.136 (talk) 00:47, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

If you want it in Misplaced Pages, you need to document it. And to document your idea that the Republicans don't have a propaganda machine is going to take some doing. When Kerry was running against a Republican, he was the "most liberal Senator". When Obama was running aginst a Republican, he was the "most liberal Senator". Actually, Teddy Kennedy is the most liberal Senator. And you may notice that you contradict your sixth sentence in your seventh sentence. You can add to your list the right of the terminally ill to end their lives without pain, the right of artists to create without censorship, and the right of soldiers who signed up for a two year hitch to make the government honor their contract. In fact, the only right liberals oppose is the right of the rich to a lower tax rate than the working class. Everything else you say can only be "documented" by listening to talk radio or reading conservative blogs. Rick Norwood (talk) 19:32, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

America the first?

This page claims that the USA was the first liberal state, based on "all men are created equal(1); that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life(2), liberty(3), and the pursuit of happiness)4); that to insure these rights, governments are instituted among men(5), deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed(6)." 86.85.230.207 (talk) 17:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

But this is pretty much just a rewritten version of the opening words of the Dutch Act of Abjuration. 86.85.230.207 (talk) 17:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

"As it is apparent to all that a prince is constituted by God to be ruler of a people, to defend them from oppression(3) and violence(2) as the shepherd his sheep; and whereas God did not create the people slaves to their prince(1), to obey his commands(3), whether right or wrong, but rather the prince for the sake of the subjects(5) (without which he could be no prince)(6), to govern them according to equity(1), to love and support them as a father his children or a shepherd his flock(4), and even at the hazard of life to defend and preserve them(2)." 86.85.230.207 (talk) 17:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

My understanding of the Act is that it merely exchanged heavenly appointed rulers. I would posit that the phrase "all men are created equal" and "As it is apparent to all that a prince is constituted by God to be ruler of a people" are mutually exclusive and the Act of Abjuration in no way whatsoever brought about a liberal state, it just substituted one deist monarch (Philip II of Spain) for another deist monarch (François, Duke of Anjou). Cheers. L0b0t (talk) 19:02, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I have trouble with the "first liberal state" claim for which no page number is cited in the source. Who was second or third? Were the thirteen colonies illiberal until 1776 or were they liberal from their settlement? In what years did the UK or Holland become liberal? I think it would be more accurate to state that they were the first country to have a written constitution based on liberal principles. The Four Deuces (talk) 23:20, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I've added a page number and a couple of quotes. Also, I've put in the adjective "modern". There were a few attempts at a liberal city state in Italy during the Renaissance. The second attempt at a liberal state was in France, but it ended badly.

Of course, America did not spring like Athena from the brow of Zeus. England and Holland were two places where liberal ideas had influence -- but they remained monarchies. As, over the years, the power of the monarch declined and the power of elected officials increased, both became more liberal, and are in that sense liberal today. Even Maggie Thatcher was more liberal than George the Third.

And of course America did not achieve liberal perfection overnight -- nor is it perfectly liberal today. But according to most historians, the American republic ushered in the current era of liberal democracy. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:44, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

liberal democracy

All liberals, as well as some adherents of other political ideologies, support some variant of the form of government known as liberal democracy, with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law. Not all liberals, this is plain obvious. Not all liberals support any kind of democracy - some believe in enlightened monarchy or dictatorship..., just to name two examples. Those are not contraditory to liberalism, they might not be practical, but there are people who belive in them.

Second, almost no liberal believes that every citizien should have equal voting rights - immature, mentally ill etc. people, while being citiziens, have their laws restricted.

Third - the word equal, and earlier equality, is used in first paragraph. It is ambiguous - does it mean every voter has one vote? Because it might mean you get as many votes as you can pay for, or as intelligent you are.

Now, a bit of OR, but it's important. Liberalism is about believing that every human being has the law to be free, and that this freedom is definable. Now, nobody who is truly liberal, believe that any two people have law to force anything on one fellow men, just because of them being majority in this situation. That's why democracy is more of practical attempt to create liberal state, rather then the goal of liberalism itself. And i myself support democracy, but not practical examples, like European Union or United States of Americe - i believe this can be done better, more liberal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.61.58.183 (talk) 12:34, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

As you say, much of this is OR, and the rest is nit picking. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:00, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

A/S Rick: Equality

Liberals do not believe in socio-economic equality, or equality of condition. Socio-economic equality is NOT a political goal of liberalism. Liberalism believes in equality of opportunity and equality under the law; therefore we should define what type of "equality" the liberals support. "Equality" is a vague term that can describe many things and it could be confused as equality of condition and a form of socialism to a reader who doesn't know what liberalism is. This is why it should be written "equality under the law" and not just equality. Liberals think all men should be equal under the law. But all men cannot be equal in socio-economic life. Rick, answer this by next week or I'm going to modify that sentence. Ithaka84 (talk) 01:49, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

There is ample discussion in the literature about what "equal" means in the phrase "all men are created equal", and it is a familiar phrase which is usually quoted without anyone thinking it needs to be explained. The use of "equal" in that phrase, and in the liberal philosophy, is contrasted to the widespread belief, at a time when liberalism was just beginning to be influential, that there is a great chain of being, that Kings are obviously superior to minor nobility, that minor nobility are obviously superior to commonors, and that commonors are obviously superior to serfs. Rick Norwood (talk) 16:51, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

That equality is equality of rights, equality of dignity, equality under the law. Equality of condition is still not a political goal of liberalism. To say that liberty and equality is the greatest political goal of liberalism is not precise. Liberty and equality of opportunity and equality under the law is more precise.Ithaka84 (talk) 00:32, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Not that this discussion has too much relevance for the content of the article, but it's a common right-wing meme that liberty and equality are incompatible. The truth is that the entire dichotomy is atrocious, as genuine equality of opportunity will almost necessarily produce equal results. That's the realization we modern liberals have made all too clearly. The right is lagging behind a little bit.UberCryxic (talk) 05:26, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

No, because it limits to two areas a much broader concept. You could, I suppose, add a disclaimer that liberals do not claim that people are equally pretty or equally good ice skaters, but everybody understands that already, so it would clutter up the lede.Rick Norwood (talk) 12:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

There certainly is a difference between liberal and socialist conceptions of equality. But as Ithaka pointed out liberalism includes equality of opportunity as well as equality before the law. But these more limited concepts are also open to wide interpretation. For example, liberals have promoted both slavery and affirmative action.

However, liberals believe that humans are equal not just that they should have equality before the law and of opportunity. The American Declaration of Independence, which is representative of liberal thought, states "all men are created equal". It is because they are equal that they should be equal before the law and have equal opportunity. The Four Deuces (talk) 14:12, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

But the sentence here is "liberalism considers liberty and equality to be the greatest political goals". Classical liberals considered all men to be born equal, but then society "corrupted" them and as they grew up they became unequal. They do not think it is possible that everyone is equal. Equality is not their political goal. They only want to provide a legal frame for them to be equal under the law.Ithaka84 (talk) 22:50, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

While liberals have owned slaves, I don't know of any liberals who "promoted slavery". Jefferson, for example, as a liberal wrote against slavery, while as a spendthrift he couldn't afford to give up the slaves that allowed him to pay his debts. As with many of us, there was a big difference between what he promoted and what he actually did.

As for what "classical liberals" think, one problem with the article is that people with very different views claim descent from classical liberalism (much as both the Democrats and the Republicans claim to be the party of Lincoln).

However, this emphasis on "equality under the law" entirely misunderstands what "all men are created equal" means. The assertion here (which nobody ever understood to mean that all people are born equally smart or equally intelligent) is that all people have equal value, not just before the law, but in every other way. That it is not socially acceptable for a well born man walking down the sidewalk to push a low born man into the ditch. Never mind whether it is legal -- is it admirable? Rick Norwood (talk) 12:24, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Slavery in the British Empire was established by merchants from the City of London, Bristol and Liverpool, not by conservatives. John Locke defended slavery, and so did the Dred Scott decision, using liberal principals. Locke also opposed conservative arguments for slavery, which were based on inequality. The main opponent of slavery, Wilberforce, was a conservative who used conservative arguments against slavery. By Jefferson's time, most liberals accepted that slavery was wrong. Even today, most people accept that someone may forfeit his liberty, e.g., by committing a criminal offense, and enter involuntary servitude.

Ithaka: do you have a reliable neutral source for your assertion? The Four Deuces (talk) 11:23, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the information, The Four Deuces. I did not know that Locke defended slavery. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:29, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Ummm there are some people here who are vastly confused. Locke denounces slavery as wrong and unnatural in the Two Treatises, which I would urge everyone to read before drowning in your own bs. It's a common misconception, however, and you are excused for your mistake. "The main opponent of slavery"....oh excuse me, I did not realize that slavery had only ONE opponent in this whole period. We would do well to remember that France was the first nation to abolish slavery, five years into the Revolution. And the people who abolished slavery there were not conservatives, but a hodgepodge of radicals and liberals. Wilberforce was politically independent. Conservatives were the ones who rejected the abolition of slavery every step of the way. European-American Southerners kept using the Bible as an excuse for slavery throughout the nineteenth century....and later for segregation as well. Every single major and modern social change came about from liberals and socialists. Conservatives opposed anything and everything, and they continue their games to this day (witness same-sex marriage).UberCryxic (talk) 23:54, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

There is no need to be sarcastic in your posting.

I accept that Locke denounced slavery while at the same time justifying it for people who were not English, i.e., only in the American colonies. (It's in the Two Treatises.)

I did not say Wilberforce was the only ONE opponent, I said he was the main opponent.

You are confusing modern American ideologies with historical ones. The "conservatives" of the South were in fact liberals - they supported the liberal American constitution, and believed in democracy, the bill of rights, capitalism and the separation of church and state - even if modern American liberals challenge their understanding of these concepts.

France was forced to abolish slavery in 1794, and only under the most radical liberal government of Robespierre.

You said: "Every single major and modern social change came about from liberals and socialists." What about unemployment insurance, workers compensation, workplace safety standards, working hours, ending child labor, health care, old age security?

The Four Deuces (talk) 14:49, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Wilberforce was the main opponent in Britain, but again, he was politically independent. Outside of Britain, the Society of the Friends of Blacks in France was the organization that stole the limelight on abolition. Largely because of the Tories and the conservatives, in fact, Wilberforce had to wait decades after starting his campaign to end slavery to actually see his dream realized. On Locke: he denounced slavery outright, and in any context. It's comical to claim that European-American Southerners in the 19th century were liberals. It's more than comical actually: it's inventing history on the spot. I've noticed this dangerous tendency on your part on several other articles relating to liberalism (or on your recent attempt to delete the article on left-wing nationalism). Liberals, of course, were generally anti-clerical and anti-authoritarian in the nineteenth century, and they remain so to this day, albeit under a different political context. Southerners were enamored with authority, hierarchy, and tradition. In other words, they celebrated and defended the central values of conservatism. They only paid lip service to the US Constitution so as to appear like a legitimate political force. It's a common conservative strategy: pretend like you care about the institutions of the modern world, which were created by liberals, and sabotage them whenever you can to advance your archaic agenda. The labor standards you mentioned largely came about from union pressure and leftist parties. We see the rise of social liberal policies in several European nations/regions in the late 19th century, but they especially take off with the election of the British Liberals in 1906. Obviously communism and socialism made the rights of workers an important issue in all Western democracies during the 19th century. They started the drive that ultimately culminated in the achievements you mentioned. Conservatism can be summed up as follows: patriarchy and plutocracy. It favors rule by wealthy men, and these are not the kinds of people who would grant workers their full rights in the workplace. Just FYI.UberCryxic (talk) 17:38, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

You also apparently decried, for no good reason, the radical liberals that abolished slavery in France. I don't want to state the historically obvious here, but liberalism in these times was often radical. The British Liberals formed in 1859 from a convergence of Radicals and Whigs. The Liberal Revolution of 1895 in Ecuador was carried out by the Radical Liberals, led by Alfaro. The ideological ferocity of liberalism varied from place to place, however. In some European nations, for example, liberalism was more conservative than it was in Latin America. Some liberals on the European mainland even supported monarchies, albeit limited by constitutions (Cavour in Italy was a good example). But regardless of the particular manifestation, liberalism was generally a progressive force throughout the 19th century. After all, much of what determined whether you were a liberal or not centered on your opinions about the French Revolution. If you were for the Revolution, you were a liberal. If you opposed it, you were conservative. By and large, conservatives opposed the developments of the modern world every step of the way, and that includes the abolition of the slavery.UberCryxic (talk) 18:11, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Lastly, it seems disingenuous to suggest that I am mixing modern American views with old views when there are significant numbers of American conservatives, including, apparently, the Governor of Texas, who are still confused on the issue of secession....a century and a half after the Supreme Court ruled that secession was unconstitutional in, humorously enough, Texas v. White.UberCryxic (talk) 18:43, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

If you have been reading my posts then you have seen that I rely on secondary sources. The concept of the aristocratic Old South has only been seriously defended by Russell Kirk and Peter Viereck. Mainstream historians do not share this view. Here is a link to The Debate over Slavery: Antislavery and Proslavery Liberalism in Antebellum America by David F. Ericson, (2000) which I only picked because it is a recent book explaining mainstream views of southern society: http://books.google.ca/books?id=A7gbE3tgsXkC&printsec=frontcover#PPA3,M1

This is not the place by the way to argue over interpretations of primary sources. I respect that we may disagree on interpreting those sources and that is why WP relies on secondary sources which represent the interpretations of scholars. It's impolite to accuse me of inventing history on the spot and much more helpful to demand my sources or to rebut them with better ones.

My reason for asking for the deletion of Left-wing nationalism was "This article is original research and does not provide any source that 'left-wing nationalism' is a known term with any specific definition." Your reply was, "This phenomenon is very much real, and very much notable". I do not see how I was changing history and found your response unhelpful. You are really saying "No, you're wrong" without providing any sources.

You may believe that there is an unbroken link between 18th century English Tory aristocrats and 21st century Republican conservatives with no intermediate influence from Locke and Adam Smith, but let's agree to disagree.

The Four Deuces (talk) 19:20, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I have been reading your posts actually, and I will continue to do so in the future. Despite doubts, I will also assume good faith. Now let's get to the business at hand. I will cleanly, clinically, and surgically destroy your misguided arguments, but before I do that, let me establish some ground rules and make some general observations.

Primary sources are almost always preferable to secondary sources, but even when secondary sources are used, they must represent a consensus viewpoint. You'll find plenty of secondary sources denying the Holocaust, but that doesn't mean that those sources should be included in Misplaced Pages's article on the Second World War. In other words, it's not enough to say: "I have secondary sources saying the Holocaust didn't happen, ergo the Holocaust didn't happen." Likewise, finding a few secondary sources that conflate liberalism with support for slavery does not mean that liberals supported slavery. Your historiographical claim about what modern and mainstream historians think regarding the structure of Southern society is plainly false. How would I know? Before I unveil my sources, consider the following. I attend the University of Virginia, and a few years ago I took a class on the Civil War with someone who is regarded as one of the greatest current historians of the period: Gary Gallagher. One of the main points that he always stressed in class was that the Civil War was fundamentally caused by an old order trying to preserve the institution of slavery, which it found very profitable. In their quest to preserve that institution, they made use of arguments about states rights, the Constitution, and so on and so forth. They tried anything and everything to keep their slaves. You hastily proclaim that we can disagree about primary sources while simultaneously pushing an incorrect view on what historians think about those sources. Most professional historians of the Civil War hold the views of Professor Gallagher. That's a sociological fact, regardless of your protestations. What you just did, in fact, is commit a logical fallacy: you used one source and implied that it represents general opinions on the subject.

I have no desire to commit a logical fallacy, so I will not claim that my personal experiences with Prof. Gallagher 'prove,' in effect, that I'm right. So getting to the secondary sources, as you prefer....yours is duly noted. Now it's my turn.

• (before war) Rebels and Renegades (2002) by Neil Hamilton:

The deepening sectional crisis, however, not only emboldened the abolitionists and encouraged reformers, it also produced a conservative reaction among southerners that caused South Carolina to secede from the Union in December 1860.

• (after war) Never Surrender: Confederate Memory and Conservatism in the South Carolina upcountry (2004) by W. Scott Poole

The defeat of the Confederacy, and the reimagination of the society that had been defeated, laid the foundation for the creation of a conservative culture. Southern conservatism flourished in South Carolina through the medium of the Lost Cause, an aesthetic representation of memory and yearning.

• The conservative tradition in America (2003) by Charles Dunn, J. David Woolard

Southern society was a stronghold of the conservative values of the importance of family and community, distrust of rapid change, and the importance of religious beliefs.....Some of the major conservative thinkers of this era were writers, rather than politicians or political philosophers. Orestes Brown personally symbolized the paradox of the Civil War. He supported the Union, but preferred southern society to the "gospel of material success" and "radical notions of human progress" prevalent in the North.

Well Deucues: it appears that the South was conservative all-right. If you want, please ask me for additional sources. I am actually itching to give you more, but such are the limitations of time. I know that you don't seem to be a big fan of primary sources, but I am, so here's one of the greatest quotations of the era from (apparently) flaming liberal Jefferson Davis, the "president" of the "Confederate States of America":

was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation..it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts.

These pesky liberals....using the Bible and religion to argue for slavery while....disestablishing the Church of Ireland (Liberals under Gladstone), crushing the Catholic Church in France (Girondins/Montagnards), curtailing the Catholic Church in Mexico (Liberals and Juarez), secularizing Turkey (under Ataturk). The Catholic Church remained staunchly anti-liberal throughout the 19th century because it loved liberalism so much. And we all know (*wink wink*) that if there are two things that go together in this world....it's religion and liberalism. I hear that's the new consensus among historians these days. I'll try to find a book that says it and get back to you later. Joking aside, I reiterate what I said earlier with full vigor: it is false, and absurd, to try and connect liberalism with the institution of slavery, especially when the exact opposite is true. Liberals fought vigorously to end slavery, and ultimately they succeeded. Conservatives fought just as vigorously to defend slavery, but they failed. Human history since the French Revolution has a basic model: the left tries to change the world, and the right tries (and fails) to stop it. The kernels of the drive to end slavery actually begin with John Locke, whose vituperative remarks against slavery inspired future liberals to banish that awful practice from the face of the planet. But I noticed that you ignored my comments about Locke, on top of all those other comments I made. I accept your concessions.

Not only are you (now) fiddling with historiographical interpretations, you are also misrepresenting my statements. In regards to left-wing nationalism, I actually wrote a short paragraph explaining why I voted to keep the article, but you don't mention this at all! Here it is:

As a systematic political force, nationalism began with the left in the French Revolution. The revolutionaries used nationalist themes to rally the French people to the cause of the Revolution. As with so many other things in the modern world, however, something that started with the left eventually found its way to the right. Today, nationalism is overwhelmingly identified with right-wing movements and ideologies, partly because the left often sees it as corrosive and disruptive. However, I would not go so far as to argue that nationalism is the bailiwick of the right. Leftists still make use of it sporadically.

I don't believe in the connection you highlight between Tories and Republicans, nor do I say this anywhere. Using strawmen arguments much? The traditions of Locke and Adam Smith belong, mainly, to the classical liberals of the 19th century: the Liberals in Britain, the Liberals in Canada, liberals throughout Latin America, and liberals throughout continental Europe and the United States. Smith might be dismayed by Republicans today, given his tacit support for heavy taxation on the wealthy. Suffice it to say, Smith considered himself a liberal, and he may have been one of the first people in the world to use the word 'liberal' in a sociopolitical sense when he championed the "liberal plan of equality, liberty, and justice."UberCryxic (talk) 22:34, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Adam Smith's support for heavy taxation of the wealthy was explicit, not tacit. On the other hand, I don't know what tax rate he considered "heavy", just that he understood that those who benefit most from a society should expect to bear most of the cost.

This section has gotten too long. Let's start a new section for future comments. Rick Norwood (talk) 15:22, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Liberal conservatism

There are no references for the definition given of "liberal conservatism". Every mention I have found of it is of conservatives who have have accepted the liberal state, e.g., English Tories who accepted the 1688 Revolution. The Liberals in Australia did not consider themselves, "liberal conservatives', which is why they called themselves liberals, not conservatives. See Ideologies (1996), Larry Johnston, p. 95, but the concept is described in many other books as well. The Four Deuces (talk) 11:08, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Social democracy section

This section cites no sources and is OR. Post-war Social Democratic governments did nationalize companies, but so have other types of governments. There is debate whether this was done for ideological or practical reasons. However, large-scale nationalization is not part of any current social democratic party's platform. The Four Deuces (talk) 14:57, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Aside from Banks and Insurance companies that is .....

<irony> Nice to see the commanding heights of the economy coming under state control </irony>--Snowded (talk) 17:01, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I suggest we replace this section with Social_liberalism#Social liberalism versus social democracy.

The Four Deuces (talk) 06:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

As there were no comments, I have made the changes. The Four Deuces (talk) 19:09, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

A note to 129.98.60.194, in hopes that he will stop wasting our time.

You evidently think liberals are unable to clearly state their beliefs. You are wrong.

Liberals believe in freedom. We believe that freedom is only possible under good government, that a weak government leads to anarchy, and so we willing pay our taxes, as the price of freedom and prosperity. We believe that when citizens are healthy and educated, everyone benefits. We believe that extremes of poverty lead to crime and corruption, and that in the long run is is both more economical and more humane to relieve poverty than to keep a large percentage of the poor behind bars. We wish conservatives would stop lying about us, but we will defend to the death your freedom to do so. Rick Norwood (talk) 20:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Slaves

UberCryxic:

Anyone who opposes slavery favors freedom and is to that extent a liberal. But in religion Wilberforce was a conservative, and opposed slavery because it was against the teachings of Christ. It is especially important, in controversial articles such as this one, to be discriminating and informed in our judgments and moderate in our tone. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I understand all of that. Thank you for the historical lesson that I did not need. Deuces made some specific allegations, however, that were not true (ie. that Wilberforce was the "main" opponent of slavery without identifying any particular social or national context). We could generalize the point to claim that Wilberforce was a radical exception, not the standard rule. Where "Christ" and the Bible were used in discussions relating to slavery, they were conceptualized as being friendly to the institution in the vast majority of all cases. The same arguments appeared in France, the US, and in much of the world. Where religion was used as a liberal and progressive force, it came exclusively from the so-called Religious Left, which was born in the 19th century.UberCryxic (talk) 18:17, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Also refer to my comments above: Wilberforce was brilliant and dedicated, but ultimately he needed the support of the Whigs (ie. the left in early 19th century Britain) to get rid of slavery. And if I'm not mistaken, the recent movie shows him sitting with the Whigs in Parliament....which says a lot.UberCryxic (talk) 18:22, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

And I apologize for my tone. Sometimes I can get excited. I can also be as cool as liquid nitrogen though, don't worry.UberCryxic (talk) 18:24, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Didn't know there was a recent movie about Wilberforce. What's the title? Rick Norwood (talk) 15:24, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Its Amazing Grace, OK a bit pious and black hat/white hat --Snowded (talk) 16:06, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

1. A: "'Liberalism' is defined as a social ethic that advocates liberty, and equality in general." – C. A. J. (Tony) Coady Distributive Justice, A Companion to Contemporary Political Philosophy, editors Goodin, Robert E. and Pettit, Philip. Blackwell Publishing, 1995, p.440. B: "Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end." – Lord Acton
2. Compare for the latter aspect the Oxford Manifesto of 1947 of the Liberal International (Respect for the language, faith, laws and customs of national minorities), Oxford Manifesto of 1997 (We believe that close cooperation among democratic societies through global and regional organizations, within the framework of international law, of respect for human rights, the rights of national and ethnic minorities, and of a shared commitment to economic development worldwide, is the necessary foundation for world peace and for economic and environmental sustainability), the ELDR Electoral programme 1994 (Protecting the rights of minorities flows naturally from liberal policy, which seeks to ensure equal opportunities for everyone) and, e.g., I have a dream of Martin Luther King
3. Compare the Oxford Manifesto of the Liberal International (These rights and conditions can be secured only by true democracy. True democracy is inseparable from political liberty and is based on the conscious, free and enlightened consent of the majority, expressed through a free and secret ballot, with due respect for the liberties and opinions of minorities)

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