Revision as of 21:43, 17 April 2009

Welcome to wikiquette assistance
Wikiquette assistance is a forum where editors who feel they are being treated uncivilly can request assistance. The goal here is to help all parties in a situation come to a mutually agreeable solution. It is designed to function via persuasion, reason, and community support, rather than threats or blocks. Your first resort should be a polite attempt to discuss the problem with the other editor(s). No binding decisions are issued here. If you seek blocks or bans, see WP:ANI instead. Sections older than 5 days archived by MiszaBot II. Click here to purge this page (For help, see Misplaced Pages:Purge) Shortcut WP:WQA Please notify any users involved in a dispute. You may use {{subst:WQA-notice}} to do so.
Search the Wikiquette archives Additional notes: Before posting, see that you've made every attempt to follow the advice at Guide to avoiding disputes. Consider the helpful advice here and see the dispute resolution process. Include diffs that show the situation. See the Simplest diff guide for help. The conduct of all parties will be taken into account. Assistance may involve suggestions for altering your own behavior to avoid conflict. Volunteers are welcome. See the volunteer instructions.
To start a new request, enter a name (section header) for your request below:

Active alerts

User:Blaxthos and, heck, me too!

I have a pretty strong opinion about criticism articles, and I've been butting heads with this other user over on the Talk:Criticism of Bill O'Reilly page. A calmer head and a new set of eyes to play referee on the discussion would be great. I should probably open an RFC on the actual question, but for now I'm just concerned that the conversation has taken on an unpleasant tone. SDY (talk) 16:14, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Can you provide some evidence? --neon white talk 12:35, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Mostly issues with WP:AGF, i.e. this diff, along with repeated accusations of disruption. My guess is simply that so many other people who have tried to make changes to the page in question have done it that even if I try to make changes to an article that I view as falling afoul of a legion of policies, the only defense is simply a condescending "no, you're against this article therefore you're wrong.  :)" If you look at the history of the article, this is a typical modus operandi of people trying to preserve badly sourced ramblings from sources which should not be given much weight at all. SDY (talk) 14:57, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Can you notify the editor of this alert. I don't particularly find that comment incivil, he/she explains the objections in a reasonable way. There may be ownership issues but it's best not to start accusing or you're not assuming good faith either. I'd you just go with a rfc with this one and get as much outside input as possible. --neon white talk 08:03, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

User:Binarygal

I encountered Binarygal over on Information technology infrastructure library after responding to a request for a third opinion. Originally editing anonymously, BinaryGal challenged an editor, Ashleyvh, for removing two links that were in apparent violation of the external link policy. The dispute got out of hand somewhat quickly, and Binarygal (still editing under an IP) began making personal attacks and a legal threat. After more exchange and more personal attacks from Binary, , Ashleyvh put in a WP:3O request. I put my two cents in (which supported the removal of links on the basis of WP:EL). At this point, BinaryGal started spewing even more personal attacks directed both at me and Ashleyvh, accusing that among other things that Ashleyvh asked me in advance to pose as a neutral third party. Any thoughts on how to proceed? - 2 ... says you, says me 06:31, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

• Can you just tell us how it has been established that 86.167.136.66 is the same editor? I think overall there is a lack of good faith with some disruptive bad faith accusations and the editor needs reminding about WP:AGF and WP:NPA. The so called 'legal threat' really isn't in this case as there is no really threat of action so we should just consider those comments as part of the general poor civility of this editor. I see a first warning has been issued recently i think we should keep a watch to see if it improves things. Please make sure you imform the editor of this alert. --neon white talk 07:53, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Binarygal continued where 86.167.136.66 left off. I think we can draw that conclusion based on contributions. - 2 ... says you, says me 14:40, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

She's been notified, she also removed warning on her talk page. - 2 ... says you, says me 14:44, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Binarygal explained they were the same editor as the IP here diff.—Ashleyvh (talk) 08:31, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Duplicate posting on another noticeboard, and subsequent conversation, moved here. Uncle G (talk) 11:51, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I encountered Binarygal over on Information technology infrastructure library after responding to a request for a third opinion. Originally editing anonymously, BinaryGal challenged an editor, Ashleyvh, for removing two links that were in apparent violation of the external link policy. The dispute got out of hand somewhat quickly, and Binarygal (still editing under an IP) began making personal attacks and a legal threat. After more exchange and more personal attacks from Binary, , Ashleyvh put in a WP:3O request. I put my two cents in (which supported the removal of links on the basis of WP:EL). At this point, BinaryGal started spewing even more personal attacks directed both at me and Ashleyvh, accusing that among other things that Ashleyvh asked me in advance to pose as a neutral third party. I think some admin input could really help in this case, I think we're beyond the point of assuming good faith, the gross incivility has continued even after being approached concerning the personal attacks. A legal threat may also still be outstanding, its not clear if Binarygal ever actually withdrew it. - 2 ... says you, says me 07:08, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

• I have to say that I am not seeing personal attacks, and I did not locate the legal threat - although I did see quite a bit of short temperedness from Binarygal. Can you post diffs of the specific legal threat, and comment which terms you feel were personal attacks? It may be that I have grown a little calloused and have missed the things that have caused you concern. LessHeard vanU (talk) 09:16, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The personal attacks are pretty obvious in these diff diff. They are full of bad faith accusations. --neon white talk 12:30, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The mention of legality is at the beginning of this diff. This was an indirect threat of legal action as the statement was "In fact some of your statements verge on the actionable in a legal sense", though this obviously would fall under the guidance of WP:NPLT and Binarygal (at that point editing under an anon IP but later confirmed themselves as the same editor, see below) failed to explain or clarify the intent of this sentence or who would be the potential parties in any legal action. This indirect threat has not been withdrawn though Binarygal did back it up with the later statement "Also, I didn't threaten anything, so please do not twist my words. I stated that your allegation might be actionable, and they might be." and at the time of writing these statements are still on the talk page.—Ashleyvh (talk) 15:23, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

• • Forum-shopping? This is still in-progress in WQA. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 11:40, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Sorry, I didn't intend to forum-shop, I was concerned about the legal threat, which I hadn't noticed until after I made the Wikiquette alert. - 2 ... says you, says me 14:40, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I will be honest: I find this to be extremely offensive and hurtful, and will most likely not edit again when this matter is settled. There were no insults and clearly no legal threats. I simply had and still have serious doubts regarding the edits of Ashleyvh. I tried to articulate these, but ironically I was the subject of what I consider to be personal attacks a degree of hostility. Please DO check the edit history very carefully and closely. I genuinely feel that I am subject to some degree of bullying, when all I have been trying to do is protect the integrity of an article, and ensure that a change I consider to be dubious was properly debated to achieve consensus. Indeed, I contact an Admin last night to request input. Please do chekc it out. BinaryGal (talk) 15:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

There were quite a number of incivil comments made by yourself towards this editor, such as accusing him/her of having a agenda, questioning thier motives and applying that they are trying to disrupt a consensus discussion by canvassing. One of our most important behavioural guidelines is assume good faith, this means we should assume every editor is here to improve the encyclopedia rather than damage it unless we have strong conclusive evidence otherwise. I see no evidence that this editor was not acting in good faith and your comments were not helpful. You are welcome to question other editors contributions but you must do it within the behavioural guidelines. If you abide by these in future there is no reason why you cannot edit in a productive way and i think you will find communicating with other editing and establishing compromises alot easier. Asking for third opinion is a good way forward. --neon white talk 15:47, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The evidence suggests an agenda: am I supposed to hide that and pretend it doesn't? Please look more closely. Look at the repeated deletions when all I was doing was asking for consenus first. Look at the bizarre justifications for deletions. I tried very hard to reach an accomodation by simply asking for time for other inputs. It was futile. That is why there was friction, apparently because I dug my heels in by trying to protect the integrity of the article. And now I am accused of this for doing so. I wouldn't worry too much about future edits from me.

Edit warring is poor practice but nowhere near evidence of an disruptive agenda. It is understandable that there is friction during intense discussion but you must remain civil that is all that is being asked here. You are not being asked to stop discussing the issue but to do it in accordance with the guidelines and assume good faith. Guidelines such as WP:EL are often open to interpretation and other editor may have different views on how they should apply, this doesnt mean they have are here to disrupt the project. It's a simply difference of opinion. When this happens, dispute resolution is advised. --neon white talk 08:50, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Please don't stop editing, that wasn't the intent of this at all. I was only making a good faith attempt to improve the situation and gain some perspective, since my third opinion didn't seem to help. We want you to be a part of this community, any community has disputes, all we're asking is that you assume good faith and don't make personal attacks when approaching disputes in the future. Staying cool when the editing gets hot has some great ideas about dealing with disputes. Also, I'm sorry for not assuming good faith concerning the legal threat. Misplaced Pages has a strict policy against legal threats, but given the situation I should have made a mention on your talk page instead of an ANI report. - 2 ... says you, says me 16:14, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Please understand that there are a lot of competing interests in the ITIL world. A lot of factions. Two large communities for example, both currently listed, as they should be. A commercial company now licensing ITIL as opposed to the UK government: politics all over the place. So I think I am rightly sensitive in defending the page and insisting on consensus when changes are made, and yes when attempts are made to force them through via repetition, especially when I can see clearly that some of the edits support one external faction at the expense of the others yet lack solid rationale.

I thus tried to buy time for consensus, and however you put it, I was pushed, my sound arguments were just ignored, and I felt I was bullied. Yet all I have done is try to defend an article's integrity. Then I am accused of all sorts, notes appear on my own page, and this segment appears about me.

I can live without this. Sure, some people know a lot more about Misplaced Pages symbols and the like than I do: but not about that article topic and the backgound. So I just stated the truth in plain English throughout and held my ground hoping for an Admin or a senior person to come in. But this is where it ends up.

An while I am at it, I have always edited from different PC's because I travel. When not here I don't always login, because I am just passing a few minutes on someone else's machine. Something else I seem to be under attack for.

Given all this, would you feel like editing again? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Binarygal (talk • contribs) 18:29, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

This is not an attack it's merely a way for others to help you improve the way you communicate with other editors. There are many many controversial subjects covered by wikipedia and the same civility rules apply on every one. --neon white talk 19:44, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

So have you informed the person who was demonstrated no civility whatsoever to me? All I did was protect an article from an extremely dubious set of repeated edits. That is all I did, as I have been doing for years until now.

No, you did not assume good faith and launched accusations of bad faith at another editor without evidence, you need to recognise this if you want to become a productive editor. --neon white talk 08:42, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I actually pointed out the repeated and bullying behaviour of another editor, with some of the supporting evidence regarding the trivial and ridiculous rationale for his edits (which ANYONE who knows the topic would consider to be suspicious). That is entirely different. As stated earlier, I don't think you need to worry about future edits from me at all, after how this has unfolded. I suspect, when I am long gone, that won't be the case with respect to the other guy.

I have always focused upon edit quality and protecting the topics I know about, rather than the meta structure supporting Misplaced Pages. To some people though the latter seems to be much more important than the content of the pages, which is why I am here, defending myself, and the other guy isn't. That is wrong and it is a pity, because I believe that my departure will be a loss to those articles. But I simply don't have to put up with it. BinaryGal (talk) 16:08, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

User:Snappy

In discussing some minor editorial points in the article Celebrity Bainisteoir with User:Snappy, I'm disappointed with the disrespect, insults and mockery with which this fellow long-time editor has communicated with me. Besides choosing to label my editorial choice as "crap", and informing me the subject discussed is one "of which you are totally ignorant", this editor has informed me "...oh purlease, darling! I don't suffer fools gladly, and if you are the easily offended type then that's too bad, Daphne!" I am a male editor and addressing me such is apparently an attempt to be insulting. I'm not interested in discussing the editorial disagreement in this forum but rather would like to draw attention to and provoke comment on the tone of discussion User:Snappy has chosen to adopt. Thanks. --Boston (talk) 15:41, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I haven't been insulting; blunt yes, rude no. Admittedly I do have a strange sense of humour which does not come across well, if at all, online. Addressing you as Daphne was a joke, if you didn't get it, then I withdraw the remark. As for you gender, I don't know or care what it is. Also, I didn't say that your editorial choice was "crap", I said that repeatedly inserting non IPA pronunciations was crap, as this is a clear violation of Misplaced Pages policy on pronunciation issues. Misplaced Pages has a policy on this issue, you may not like it but the policy is clear. Snappy (talk) 01:05, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't live in a cave and I well understand the "campy" register in which these comments are made. This register doesn't justify calling a fellow editor a fool, their edits crap, and their state ignorant. Its unwise to expect that such comments are good ingredients for the improvement of Misplaced Pages. We all feel tempted to drop the Wikiquette and speak harshly at times. The best of editors never do. Most of us could do better. Only the most disruptive editors revert to such rudeness with little provocation as Snappy has done. I don't doubt that Snappy understands that civility is one of Misplaced Pages's ore principles. I don't doubt that Snappy understands that language which is funny when we kid around with our friends is hostile when we are debating with a stranger online. Am I to understand that Snappy's response above indicates that when we think we are correct about something then Misplaced Pages guidelines about civility don't apply? At any rate, this is extremely immature and disappointing behavior from an editor who has reached a stage in their Misplaced Pages career when they should be helping the process run smoothly and setting a good example for newbies rather than prompting a Wikiquette alert. I want to make it clear to Snappy that Veteran Editors have not earned a right to lower their level of civility. Rather, these (and Administrators) are the ones who must show they understand why better behavior is necessary. --Boston (talk) 01:59, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

If you understand the "campy" register in which these comments are made, then why are you complaining? You have also misrepresented most of my comments. To explain, 1) I didn't call you a fool, I said I don't suffer fools gladly, that is a statement about me, not you, nor does it imply that you are a fool. If I inadvertently implied you were a fool, then I withdraw the comment unreservedly. 2) Once again, I didn't say you edits were crap, I said your repeated violation of Misplaced Pages policy on pronunciation was so. 3) I didn't say your state was ignorant, I said that you were ignorant of the Irish language, there is a difference. Please don't attempt to assign words to me because no, I do not believe that Misplaced Pages civility guidelines don't apply when someone thinks they are correct about an issue. Of course, they always apply. You say I have been uncivil, I think I have not, but I will take what you are saying on board in my future dealings with you and my fellow wikipedians. Snappy (talk) 04:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Actual admission of rudeness and apology for the same is rare on Misplaced Pages. Admirable indeed is the editor who can rise to apology. We're unwise to expect it often and I correctly didn't predict one from Snappy. Despite the verbal gymnastics in the above response ("I didn't call you a fool, I said I don't suffer fools gladly, that is a statement about me, not you, nor does it imply that you are a fool", etc.), Snappy's statement about taking my objections "on board in...future dealings with...fellow wikipedians" is a well-enough resolution to the matter. I consider my point made and the conversation closed. --Boston (talk) 04:43, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Too good a quote to waste - "It is a good rule in life never to apologize. The right sort of people do not want apologies, and the wrong sort take a mean advantage of them." ~ P.G. Wodehouse, The Man Upstairs. ;-) Snappy (talk) 05:37, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Since I didn't predict, want, or demand an apology, I appreciate the compliment. --Boston (talk) 07:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Smiley face murders

There are some constant issues going on with the Talk:Smiley face murders page, where an anonymous IP is outing a fellow editor and making inappropriate comments. I don't know if there is a way to permanently delete information, as the IP has placed the editor's address on Misplaced Pages. Please take a look, as I believe sockpuppetry is also going on. Angryapathy (talk) 12:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Please be advised: This is WAY beyond WP:WQA now. There are legal threats and OUTING and... it's a mess. I have added to the previously resolved entry on AN/I and also directly notified an administrator about this. Padillah (talk) 13:03, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

User:NonResidentFellow Keeps calling legitimate edits "vandalism"

User:NonResidentFellow Keeps calling legitimate edits "vandalism" (see ), despite explicit requests on the User's talk page to stop doing so . Mashkin (talk) 00:39, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Left a message reminding the editor about the rules at WP:VANDALISM. See how the editor responds. --neon white talk 07:10, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

User:Ratel

In the discussions for Interstitial cystitis (Talk:Interstitial_cystitis/painful_bladder_syndrome), two parties had a dispute regarding the proper implementation of citations and text in the article where it regards acupuncture (please note the policies on pseudoscience in WP:NPOV). While one party (Transity) attempted several times to reach compromise and form a consensus to improve the article, the other party (Ratel) tended towards abusive and non-constructive behavior, including constant accusations with regard to the WP:SPA policy.

Having come to the article for information, I noticed the edit war and read the discussion with disbelief. Transity put a request for opinions in the discussion, and I contributed mine. As they were at odds with Ratel's opinions, he chose to ignore the topic of conversation (not the first time he was in violation of WP:TPG in this discussion - I've never wittingly read any of his other contributions) and continue to accuse, insult, and insinuate rather than engage in discussion.

Ratel's behavior is clearly confrontational, rather than constructive, and his baseless and immediate accusations are in clear violation of WP guidelines WP:RFC:

Try not to be confrontational. Be friendly and civil, and assume good faith in other editors' actions.

I would like to invite other users to examine the discussion and contribute their opinions, both on the actual subject of the discussion, and on Ratel's behavior. I am informing Ratel of this Wikiquette alert, as well as informing him of my intention to consider an official RfC if both the issue and his behavior remain unresolved.

Scramblecase (talk) 17:53, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Can you provide some specific diffs of the incivility? --neon white talk 21:14, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Please note that Scramblecase — see contribs — is an obvious SPA started up specifically to make this attack on me here. I am currently in a tense confrontation with a highly tendentious editor with a long history of obsessive edit warring on the Drudge Report Talk page, and (s)he has decided to expand the attack on me by stalking and starting up this distracting rearguard action. Checkuser probably won't help because this is a sophisticated user who knows how to use proxies and/or the local library's computers to make this attack. Suggestion: ignore or block this SPA. Thanks. ► RATEL ◄ 22:28, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

WQAs aren't attacks, they are an informal process to help editors improve difficult communications. If you believe this is a sockpuppet then file a case, we can't really deal with that here. --neon white talk 08:08, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

See where he leaps into a totally different discussion on an admin's page asserting " I strongly suggest you heed the complaints of other editrs about this individual", repeats charge that I was able to get a "Reliable source" changed, with es of "this is so clearly an example of admin recruitment that it should be saved for an essay on the topic" and says "Gee, I missed this section, full of lies and misrepresentations from Collect, and lots of lickspittling obsequiousness. This sort of blatant buttering up of an admin is very distasteful.". And on my talk page: "For example, in the last two days you have waited for me to arrive for my daily editing/vandalism removal session, then you pounce, trying to out-edit me and create numerous edit conflicts. It's clearly there in the logs for all to see. It's dirty pool, so stop it. I hope you have no admin ambitions, because I shall monitor your machinations and ambitions on wp and make sure everyone is apprised of your disruptive behaviour if this continues." which sounds kinda sorta threatish to me, and is likely why he is trying to assert that I am in any way connected with the fact that others have found his WP:OWN issues a probles (his edits outnumber anyone elses on Drudge Report and on Matt Drudge by five to one.) His snide claim that I am using proxies if false and defamatory as well. Was he done? " I won't comment on your claimed history of being Misplaced Pages Master of the Universe. ". But heck let's look at some other diffs ... shows just how seriously he takes facts in an article. Ratel, as can be seen by this small sample, routinely makes accusations, makes demeaning comments about editors and admins, has no conept of what "copyright" means etc. shows more of his temperament. More diffs available very readily, but I suggest the point is made without any editorial comment on my part. And here he is accusing me of "wikistalking." Collect (talk) 23:31, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, speak of the Devil. Hope all this venting is emotionally satisfying for you. ► RATEL ◄ 05:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd avoid referring to someone as 'the devil' in an alert about civility. --neon white talk 08:17, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

"Speak of the devil" is an English language idiom that is not uncivil in any way.► RATEL ◄ 02:48, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

• Assessment This seems to be a long term dispute between two editors involving incivility and bad faith accusations by both. It is probably a case for Misplaced Pages:Mediation but i like to see what other editors think. --neon white talk 08:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I tend to agree. I see a pair of editors who obviously dislike one another. Threats to follow someone around are against WP:HOUND and I would not be surprised to see additional action taken. I would like to think that I can help resolve almost anything, but I believe that this one needs to follow an official mediation path at this point. I'm not going to point out the unique irony of the original article mentioned. This is not the type of behaviour that is expected at Misplaced Pages, and both editors appear to be willing to continue the argument, rather than resolve it. I can tell you this: the first one who does attempt to resolve it (and sticks to it) will have my admiration. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 09:56, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

But wait. All this history aside, there is a problem on the discussion for Interstitial cystitis, which is why this Wikiquette alert was opened to begin with. I don't know if Scramblecase is working on behalf of Collect, and frankly I don't care. The discussion on IC needs attention, and I second the call for assistance there.

To me, Ratel's response here illustrates the same behavior he has shown in the IC discussion. Rather than addressing the actual substance of a comment (whether that's the changes being discussed on the IC article, or the very accurate characterization of his behavior above), Ratel seems to prefer insults and name-calling over substantive debate. In fact, the SPA label is one he used on me as well, among others. In addition, based on my experience with him plus the other exchanges of his that I've now read, it seems that he has significant ownership issues with several articles that he's spent time on, IC being one of them.

I agree that the larger issue here needs to be taken up elsewhere (though that larger issue, I think, should include a look at Ratel's behavior and not just his interactions with Collect), but please do not close this request out as I need help with the IC issue. I am not Collect, nor am I acting on his behalf, so my issue has nothing to do with their disagreement. --Transity 13:28, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate your input, neon and Bwilkins. Neon, the diffs seem to be somewhat irrelevant, as the conversation itself is the crux of Ratel's behavior. (Diffs displaying single responses in a discussion don't seem, to me, to be as valuable as diffs displaying edits and re-edits in an article - discussions are already available in full on their respective pages, and, presumably, will not be "revised.") If you read the original discussion (as suggested in the guidelines for WP:WQA), you'll see his responses in context, and their sheer irrelevance and confrontational style will be self-evident. Both of these traits exist throughout the linked Talk page; my experience with him doesn't come in until the (currently) last section that Transity created, requesting opinions on the previous material.

Bwilkins, I would agree that you see a pair of editors who obviously dislike one another - now that I've perused some of Ratel's other pages, which I was avoiding to keep a neutral point of view myself, I would certainly agree that Ratel and Collect have some, er, tendentious encounters. (It's hard to avoid that conclusion, since the specific word is thrown about so frequently.) However, what you are seeing here is not a "pair of editors," for I am not, in fact, Collect; I have no reason to suspect that Transity is Collect, and as he claims he is not, I am following policy and not assuming so (unlike Ratel); and, if necessary, plenty of links can be provided to demonstrate a number of other users, all of them presumably unconnected to Collect, who have had similar experiences with Ratel (they're all over WP), including User:Gwen_Gale, who attempted some mediation between the now-infamous pair to which you refer.

Collect, while I appreciate your input, and sympathize with your experiences with Ratel, I'd like to try and keep this WQA on topic (as much as possible) for now. Your references to your experiences with Ratel are a basis for a case for repeated behavior, but for now, as I'd mentioned, I'd like to simply get the behavioral issue resolved - not punished. However...

Ratel, I'm not interested in pandering to any paranoid delusions at this point. Your description of a "sophisticated user" who would go through the trouble of proxies and what-not simply to attack you is quite telling of your general outlook on this site. After this response, I will no longer be directly addressing further accusations of sockpuppetry, nor the ridiculous WP:SPA comments, nor your tendency to WP:BITE newcomers (on frequent display elsewhere) - at least, not to you. If you truly suspect me of sockpuppetry, and you are not simply trying your frequent intimidation tactics (again, on frequent display elsewhere), feel free to make a formal complaint. Otherwise, cease these empty complaints and address the two specific issues being broached: namely, the original discussion in the IC article, and your needless and immediate confrontational behavior which does not seem targeted toward improving WP, no matter your frequent claims to do so.

Frankly, Ratel, you seem to have not only taken WP:OWNership of the IC/PBS article and the Drudge Report article (which I drudged through wearily, noting all the usual behaviors from you in your interactions with other users, including Collect), but Misplaced Pages as a whole, considering your (again) frequent threats and proclamations against other users. Your user history is quite enlightening. I apologize for my newcomer status, as you can therefore not be quite so enlightened by my history. Of course, you're free to continue assuming I'm Collect, and use his history to enlighten you about my character and motivations; however, I'd recommend you not do that, to save yourself the later embarrassment. On a side note: no offense meant to Collect, but as a published, professional writer, I'm somewhat unnerved by Ratel's assertion that I "am" Collect, having now seen a sampling of Collect's writing style. Ouch. (To both of us: apologies, Collect.)

For the record, I've already put in my opinion about the IC article itself (in the Talk page): if pseudoscience is brought in for a citation, then that itself automatically opens the door to a citation offering the majority consensus counterpoint regarding that pseudoscience; and if the second citation debunks the pseudoscience in general, that clearly qualifies as debunking the pseudoscience across the board, including the specific instance in context. ("All carp are fish" doesn't leave much wiggle room for any particular carp; it's pretty conclusive.) I don't really care if Transity's additions make it in or not (apologies to Transity), but would rather all unfounded references to pseudoscience be removed from what is a medical article, and should be held to higher standards.

Meanwhile, in regard to this WQA, I would invite other users to examine Ratel's specific behaviors in the context of the IC discussion - behaviors which are also on display in this WQA, which, sadly, I was hoping would change. Ratel, if anyone is attempting to attack you, then I sympathize; I, however, am not attacking you. WP is not about you; the articles are not about you, your tendency toward WP:OWNership notwithstanding. This WQA, of course, is about you, and I'd think you would like to represent yourself positively, rather than continue the outrageous behavior that motivated me to start the WQA in the first place. Even assuming I were a sockpuppet (apparently, I should remind you that I'm not), your responses do not put you in a good light, and I have remained largely civil throughout our exchanges. I'd urge you to keep that in mind, and begin to display some semblance of civility in return. Eschewing your WP:OWNership and WP:BITE-ing tendencies (along with your irrelevant accusations, insults, and cries of "WP:SPA") would be a step toward putting you in the positive light you would presumably like others to see. Scramblecase (talk) 14:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Can i ask what username or ip did Scramblecase edit under before? This is not a first edit by a user brand new to wikipedia. It shows clear knowledge of some uncommon policies. Don't be offended if Misplaced Pages:CheckUser is used in this case. If this is a sock of Collect or any other editor involved which i think is a fair suspicion, then it needs to be sorted out first. --neon white talk 14:50, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Truly and factually, neon, I've never had an account on WP before this one. I do, however, have extremely extensive professional and personal experience with developing and implementing web technologies, so it's not particularly hard to catch on to the protocols here. Add to that Ratel's own frequent citing of policy, and it also wasn't hard to do the research (another thing I'm required to do professionally) and get the hang of WP's policies and guidelines. The typical back and forth in exchanges like this is nothing new, either, as I've contributed to plenty of scientific and technological blog articles and threads before. In short, not only is sockpuppetry an inaccurate assessment of my status, but I am actually, factually a new user on WP. I think it's fair to say that the "suspicion" is certainly possible, just not plausible, and as only I can know that it's flat-out false (though Collect would know as well), I would simply point out that it was the immediate conclusion Ratel jumped to (since I now understand his accusatory pun in his first response to me), rather than making any examination or gleaning any evidence whatsoever. Obviously, there's little I can do to "prove" I have never had a previous WP account (or, more accurately, to disprove that I have had another account), but feel completely free to use Misplaced Pages:CheckUser - I'm not offended in the least - and in fact, if that will somehow clear this all up so we can move on to the actual issues, I'd urge someone, anyone, everyone, to do so. As I'd mentioned to Ratel in my second contribution, I have no reason to hide anything - I've been both truthful and civil in our entire exchange.

Again, and to make sure this is quite clear: my very first contribution (on the IC/PBS Talk page) was an observation of Ratel's behavior, an admonishment to stay on topic and cease being abusive, and a comment about the actual issue being discussed. The only reason this has escalated, of course, is Ratel's subsequent responses and behaviors. If this were about attacking him, then only Ratel's behavior made that possible. An effort on Ratel's part to focus on the topic and leave off the abusive behavior would have precluded the attack.

I'll be out of commission for the day (East Coast USA time), but I'll be happy to check in later this evening if I'm needed to answer any particular questions regarding the CheckUser procedure. Scramblecase (talk) 15:22, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

• Some obvious points here:

1. Scramblecase is not a new user, but a sock, as any experienced editor can immediately tell. The constant use of links to wp policies is a dead giveaway. I'll eat my hat if this is a new user. In addition, the language style this SPA uses is identical to Collect, who him/herself was recently scolded for edit warring by admin Gwen Gale.diff
2. Transity is also a SPA, and a quick perusal of his edit history makes that clear (editing numerous articles to attack what he sees as unscientific alternative or complementary ("COM") medicine). Calling him a SPA is simply WP:SPADE. I have now compromised with Transity on the IC/PBS page and instituted an edit that should satisfy all parties.
3. The topic of this mischievous alert should actually be Collect/Scramblecase, who is disrupting several pages on wikipedia at the moment as well as wasting my precious time. ► RATEL ◄ 00:21, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I think you're the only one who thinks that questioning your behavior is a waste of time, Ratel. No one else seems to be coming to that conclusion. The uninvolved parties here haven't said that you have acted responsibly - in fact, they see problems on both sides of your interactions with Collect. So let's not be so hasty.

I have no idea if Scramblecase is a sockpuppet. I imagine that an admin would have to look into that. If you want to start that investigation, by all means do so. I have no history with Collect (or Scramblecase), so until I see evidence otherwise, I will assume good faith and believe that Scramblecase is exactly what he/she claims to be.

Calling me a SPA (yet again), though, is what this problem is about. In my interactions with you, you're responses were often nothing more than insults and invective (much like your responses here, and apparently on other pages as well). I also find it ironic that someone who has the overwhelming bulk of their edits on about three articles and the associated talk pages is so quick to toss around terms like SPA. Finally, I think the automatic negative connotation associated with someone who focuses on one type of article or one type of information is undeserved. If a person is doing that to the detriment of WP, then by all means, they aren't acting properly. If they are focusing on what they know and improving WP, then I see nothing negative about their behavior. So when you throw around that term at everyone you come across, it actually makes it clear that you care more about the leter of the law than about the actual content being discussed. That's a problem. You should think about both of these issues I raised before tossing this term around in the future.

No, we have not compromised on the IC edit. Although it appeared we had, Ratel has reversed course and we are stuck at the same point we were when this WQA was opened. He remains intractable.

Even if we had reached agreement, that wouldn't mean that your behavior is above reproach. I'll leave it to the WQA folks to decide if they want to weigh in, or if they feel that they can't say anything more until the other issues are looked at by an admin (they seem to be leaning toward the latter).

Finally, since I think it's safe to say that no one thinks that I am Collect (which is good, because I'm not), we can set aside the dispute between Collect and Ratel, and take my word for the issues I have seen with Ratel. The biggest concern, I think, is his presumed ownership of articles. He certainly behaved that way on IC as the talk page shows, and from what I've now read, he has behaved that way on the Drudge article(s) as well. In addition, even if he assumed he was slapping Collect when he insulted Scramblecase, he did the same thing to me, and he certainly didn't think that I was Collect. That adds WP:BITE to the list, at a minimum. Is questioning this kind of behavior "a waste of time"? I don't think so.

So I would still like to see a review of his behavior, either here or in some other forum. And I still would like assistance in dealing with him over at the IC article as that problem still exists. Dealing with an editor like Ratel makes WP a less fun and less productive place to be, and I can certainly say that it doesn't make newcomers feel welcome all. Most people, upon seeing his behavior, would simply give up and walk away (I was actually about to do so since it was clear he wasn't about to discuss the issues, he would revert anything I changed, and I didn't have the time to go through any formal DR), and that's not what I think WP wants to be like. --Transity 02:22, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

TRANSITY — Ok, if you want me to show what a bite is .. you talk about how people like me make WP a less fun place to be, but in fact the reverse is true: it's people like you who are messing up wikipedia. Your modus operandi, clearly visible in your contribution history, is to go from page to page trying to bad-mouth alternative medicine, to the point of synthesis and orginal research. You insist that all mentions of, for example, acupuncture, carry warnings about "pseudoscience"! This is idiocy. You ignore policy on these matters, even when I went to pains to point it out to you. You ignore consensus, even when other editors join me in telling you that you are wrong. You have a monomaniacal obsession with denigrating a form of medicine that you believe to be tripe, and you're determined to use wikipedia to further your obsessions and foist your unique and odious opinions on the world. It's editors like you who are making this site an unhappy place to be. 02:37, 17 April 2009 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ratel (talk • contribs)

As I mentioned in my previous response, I am no longer addressing Ratel directly in his off-topic, irrelevant, and tedious accusations of sockpuppetry. I will be more than compliant in responding to anything he has to say on-topic, on any page.

To any and all admins: I will officially, and for the record, put forth that I am one hundred percent willing, should Collect - or any other user whom I am supposed to be "sockpuppeting" - agree to it, to provide a phone number and engage in a live, three-way conference call: the admin, myself, and Collect (or any other user). Let's reiterate that: one hundred percent willing. No, this is not a bluff. Make the request, get Collect, or any other user whom Ratel's paranoia convinces him I must be on any given day, to agree and offer his number, and set up the call. I've had quite enough of Ratel's accusations, and if that drastic a measure is the only way to have done with it once and for all, I'm perfectly willing to deal with it that way. Subsequent to that, I shall provide Ratel with a hat. This is getting ridiculous. Strike that: this is already quite ridiculous.

What I'm after is a WP where WP:OWNership fanatics such as Ratel - his history, particularly on the IC article and the Drudge Report article (the latter of which he indirectly sent me to in the first place, with his accusations), makes his behavior quite clear - cease their tiresome, abusive behavior once and for all, and discuss topics in a civil manner, without any notions of superiority, seniority, or ownership. The point of the site, as Ratel so often states, but rarely abides by, is to improve and maintain the repository of information, full stop.

Enough with the distractions of sockpuppetry. My technical expertise with WP is easily explained; unless one believes it to be ever so hard to look at the code in this text field and the resulting text and see the connections in the formatting instantly (I write code for a living). My ability to catch on to the terminology and policy citations on WP is easily explained; unless one believes that following the links provided by others, following links from there, and getting a firm grasp of why and when they are using those policy citations is difficult. (I also write contracts, business proposals, style guides, and numerous other documents in my profession - this material is quite simplistic, comparatively, which is a good thing, so try not to get offended by that remark.) Please get over this red herring; WP isn't rocket science. Adapting to the protocols of any new situation or environment isn't neurosurgery. And noting the atrocious behavior of Ratel isn't a Sherlock Holmesian feat of observation, even before I discovered that it is, in fact, chronic.

As I said, I'm happy to do whatever any admin would like in order to clear the red herring of sockpuppetry off the table. This WQA was initiated due to Ratel's rude, abusive, and dismissive behavior; I would think any other user would be hard-pressed to see his behavior in this very section and disagree with that assessment. My status completely aside, Ratel's outrageous behavior has been disruptive on more than one article, and in more than one Talk page, as is evident in his interactions with Collect (which he dredged up in the first place), and my subsequent - and directly motivated - searches for his contributions.

Feel free, anyone, at any time, to initiate a WQA or RfC, or further proceedings, regarding the suspicion of my being a sockpuppet. Such issues can be discussed there; it is a separate issue. I disagree with neon's assertion that it must be dealt with "first." No matter who or what I am, other users are free to peruse the material referenced, and decide for themselves whether Ratel's behavior is appropriate. I'm not the issue here. Yet again, Ratel feels no reservation about derailing yet another page with his paranoid and possessive ranting.

This WQA concerns Ratel's behavior. I am more than willing to be taken to task for any misbehavior I may have shown. I don't believe there to be any serious infractions, beyond, perhaps, an occasional facetious remark in response to Ratel - or, apparently, being technically skillful enough (aren't most of the users here?) to use WP's interface with no direct experience (I have, of course, been reading the site for years - why else would I be here?). I am also more than willing to be taken to task for the possibility of being a sockpuppet (which I am not). Again, I encourage any user or admin to initiate any proceedings necessary regarding my own status. Meanwhile, however, this WQA should remain focused on Ratel's behavior throughout his contributions on WP, and on the IC/PBS article in particular. The IC/PBS article itself, unfortunately lost in the shuffle, should be free of his obsessive, possessive, abusive comments - note that I do not say "free of Ratel," but rather, free of those comments - in order for the editors (including Ratel, if he is able to overcome is chronic behavioral problems) to come to some sort of consensus. If anyone disagrees, then please, if you will, explain to me the point of the WP policies that Ratel so readily cites. Scramblecase (talk) 04:48, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

(To Ratel) Once again I see you've chosen to avoid discussing substance in favor of tossing around insults. I don't think I've ever seen anything else from you. I won't defend my edits on other articles to you. I feel they are proper, and I don't care at all what you think of them. My record is available. I'll gladly take criticisms from others, but your opinion is, frankly, meaningless. You simply continue to display the same behavior that got you here in the first place. And I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that I'm not the only person making these observations. Instead of insulting others, you need to look in the mirror. And if you won't, then someone needs to do it for you. --Transity 04:52, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

• i have filed an investigation Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Scramblecase to clear things up with regards to suspicions of sockpuppetry. Do not be offended if your username is listed there. It is merely trying to establish if this editor is, or acting on behalf of another editor in this dispute. Please don't use thew investigation to carry on the dispute. --neon white talk 08:26, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

• I have followed the matter at Interstitial cystitis where User:Transity seems to be straining at a gnat. I have previously encountered User:Ratel at Alain de Botton where I find him to be brusque and bold but not unpleasantly so. The clash then is between an editor who won't let an issue go and an editor who tries to get closure in a brisk, business-like way. Insofar as we are here to get articles written rather than fill up talk pages, the latter style seems preferable. But the matter seems to be essentially a content dispute rather than a matter of etiquette and so should be resolved accordingly. Colonel Warden (talk) 09:53, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

• I'm a little surprised, Colonel, that you could read the thread at IC and come to this conclusion. I obviously do not agree with you. As I said on the IC thread, yes the issue is minor in the grand scheme of the overall article, but to me, that doesn't mean we should fail to improve it just because Ratel says "no" (with no decent arguments to back himself up). Sorry you feel that way, but I think it's clear from all that has transpired on IC, here, and on other posts (now shared here) that Ratel's behavior is a problem that goes far beyod being "brisk." --Transity 11:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

• No offense taken, neon. As I've noted, feel free to initiate any proceedings against me you (or anyone) might deem necessary. In the meantime, I would think that this discussion has not nearly finished, as I have yet to see very much in the way of a response to Ratel's chronic behaviorial problems on this site. What I have largely seen instead are brief discussions of who is right or wrong in the editing dispute between Ratel and Transity, references to Ratel's disputes with Collect, and accusations of sockpuppetry. With all of those being addressed elsewhere at this time, I'd like this WQA to stay on target, if everyone would be amenable to that. Colonel Warden, I find it a misinformed and/or disingenuous position that you see the matter as a content dispute, as Ratel rarely addresses the content itself in the IC discussion without hurling insults and rancor at his interlocutors (just as he has done here), and frequently eschews the content altogether in favor of the insults and rancor. Ratel, there is a perfectly appropriate sockpuppetry investigation on which to make accusations at me, now, so perhaps you could stay on target here (the target being your own outrageous behavior across the board), and in the IC Talk (which I see you've made an attempt to do at this point...not successful, but an attempt, which is not unnoticed). As a note, despite my strong disagreement with Ratel and Colonel Warden on the IC Talk consensus, I am reluctant to voice my opinion there, in that I may taint the issue with the current proceedings here and in the sockpuppetry investigation. Scramblecase (talk) 15:23, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

User:Future Perfect at Sunrise

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

This admin has initiated a block against me unfairly. His exact words were that he did because "This is only a short warning block". However, wikipedia states explicitly that :

• Blocks intended solely to "cool down" an angry user should not be used, as they often have the opposite effect

I have done absolutely nothing wrong; I presented an opinion at the Assyrain People article that was supported by consensus and opposed by a certain admin. When I called in another admin and posted the logic explaining my position, I was blocked by this admin, and he gave no reason other than the faulty warning block.

No warning was given to me that a block was imminent. And blocks are not meant to be used as warnings either.

In his very poor choice of words, "disruptive filibustering" was why I was blocked, and Mango juice then went further to point out this edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Assyrian_people&diff=284006672&oldid=284006519#Affected_articles_by_the_article.27s_new_title as being disruptive to good faith edits of the article - really? Take a look for yourselves please and judge whether or not I was doing this.

This admin has even gone so far as to accuse me of having a "blatantly hostile, non-cooperative attitude", even though if you look at my edits, which constitued roughly 2 or 3, I made no such attitude develop.

Finally, this admin has refused to respond to where my mistake was.

Gabr-el 17:29, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

• This isn't the venue - to request a review of a block or administrator actions, please try an admin noticeboard. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:56, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

User:Robotics lab/User:Homebum

User:Robotics lab, previously posting as User:Homebum and under other aliases (see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Hobojaks), has been persistently abusive at Talk:Classical Hamiltonian quaternions. In this sarcastic post, which I find especially offensive, he accuses me of "random clueless deleting of text" and being part of a "plot on ever more clever ways to wiki-hound less experienced users". I am walking away from this, but perhaps someone could have a word with him. Gandalf61 (talk) 22:38, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Both User:Robotics lab and User:Homebum have now been blocked indefinitely as abusive sock puppets of User:Hobojaks, so any further discussion would appear to be moot.

—David Wilson (talk · cont) 09:24, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

an untenable personal attack

editor SaltyBoatr launched into this diatribe on the talk page for the second amendment. it's an unbridled personal attack, employing commentary from my talk page dating back to 2005! he also included a test edit i'd performed using twinkle, where i added a warning to my own talk page about adding defamatory content to wikipedia - and used this as evidence of my incivility. indeed, this is a remarkable documentation of his willingness to exceed all boundaries in his attacks on me, which in recent weeks have been getting ever worse. what's the next step?

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution&diff=prev&oldid=284440887

Anastrophe (talk) 16:18, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

It is a policy at Misplaced Pages to Try to discourage others from being uncivil. There is good reason for this policy, because incivility impairs our ability to collaboratively edit an encyclopedia. In this instance I see an editor who has left a very long trail of hundreds of incivil acts, causing immeasurable damage to the collaborative atmosphere. I am following policy by speaking up and trying to restore civility to Misplaced Pages. My 'crime' consists of asking for civility (see here) and making direct quotes from Anastrophe's talk page to call attention to a long pattern of complaints from other editors who also see a clear pattern of lack of civility. At what point does a pattern of lack of civility begin to be taken seriously? It harms our encyclopedia. SaltyBoatr (talk) 16:28, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

hyperbole does not help your argument. "hundreds of attacks" - utter nonsense and exaggeration. you betray your zeal to attack me by having included my own test edit regarding defamatory content as being an example of my incivility. furthermore, addressing your concerns about my behavior in a lengthy diatribe on the talk page for the second amendment article - while the discussion was one you started about an anon IP's behavior - further reveals your zeal to attack me. your post was in the wrong place, about the wrong editor. i've started the process here, in the appropriate venue. i'm quite sure that the talk page for the second amendment is not the correct venue for bringing up your charges against me. you've committed numerous acts of incivility towards me, also, misrepresenting things i've written. the curious thing is that your attacks on me have increased ever since i recently tendered a long-overdue apology to you for previous comments i'd made.

there is a vast difference between speaking bluntly and being genuinely uncivil. i frequently speak bluntly, but in the main, i direct my commentary at the edits that others make, not at the editor him/herself, unless that editor needs to be shown that what they're doing is outside of wikipedia policy. i won't coddle vandals, nor editors who attempt to introduce content into the encyclopedia that is patently contrary to policy.

are you an admin? i'm quite sure you're not. your responsibility, your obligation, is to tend to your own behavior. if you believe my behavior needs correct, you bring it up at the appropriate noticeboard, you don't post a lengthy diatribe on an article talkpage attempting to impugn me. that very act was textbook uncivil, contra- AGF, and a personal attack. i'm quite certain that you know your way around wikipedia, you know very well that your diatribe was in the wrong place - and because of that, it's clear your intent was to publicly attack me, rather than to work within the WP framework to correct my 'bad behavior'.

i filed this report because you are showing an escalating pattern of attacks on me. this needs to be addressed. if you wish to file a grievance about my past behavior, you're certainly welcome do so. hijacking my grievance isn't how wikipedia works. you know this. Anastrophe (talk) 21:43, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages dispute resolution