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James G. Lindsay

James G. Lindsay (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Almost the entire article is devoted to Lindsay's opinions of the UNRWA, no claim of notability outside of having published a critique of the UNRWA is made. Everything in the article could go in to the UNRWA article; the entirety of the biographical information in the article is the lead and the single line on military service and education. Nableezy (talk) 10:59, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

• Delete as nom Nableezy (talk) 11:01, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. —Nableezy (talk) 11:05, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
• Delete (merging any useful material to UNRWA first). Doesn't seem notable enough for own article (and by the by bio info is dangerously close to copyvio of the sources). Rd232 13:16, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions. —☺Coppertwig (talk) 13:40, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. —☺Coppertwig (talk) 13:44, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
• Keep seems more than just a run of the mill clerk BUT I might be wrong. In any case, undue weight given to that report in this BLP article. Make more consise and move that to UNWRA. --Shuki (talk) 18:40, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
• Strong, Strong, Strong Keep LOL. Heads up everyone: Me and Nableezy are currently in a dispute over Charities accused of ties to terrorism. The dispute has been roadblocked with both of us accusing each other of edit warring and POV-pushing. Nableezy has seen the James Lindsay before, never edited it, and never voiced any concerns at . Therefore, I personally consider this a violation of Misplaced Pages:Do not disrupt Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point. If there are specific concerns about the article, it should be first addressed in talk. Going straight to AFD (especially considering our relationship Nableezy) is beyond suspect. Obviously the AFD will be 50/50 because bio in question is by a person who isn't a fan/supporter/fencer of Hamas or Palestinians in general. All answers and questions should be argued in talk. Not in AFD, at least not yet. I am wiling to discuss any and all disputes, but again that's for talk. I encourage a strong "no consensus" and/or immediate close so we can solve issues in talk. If problems remain, and nothing is changing, AFD seems like a logical conclusion. But it is my opinion Nableezy has no concern about the article and the timing of our feud cannot be a coincidence. Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:29, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment- WF, one thing has nothing to do with the other, you need to stop making this about me and you. I don't care enough about you to plan my moves around what you may think. Let it go, make your points and leave my username out of it. I stated why I think it should be deleted, thats it. Nableezy (talk) 06:27, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment - Nab, you're not fooling anyone. Wikifan12345 (talk) 06:44, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I have wanted to delete this article since it was created, I gave you time to bring it up to standards, which I feel you have not done as you have not established notability, and then proposed deletion. This has nothing to do with anything else. Nableezy (talk) 11:37, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

• Comment Information pertinent to the UNRWA has been merged with the article and Palestinian refugee. Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:37, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
• Keep Keep and Expand. Lindsay is appropriately categorized among American academics, American foreign policy writers, American legal writers, Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Writers on the Middle East, & University of Missouri-Columbia alumni, and probably more. Many academics are single-issue people, and Lindsay's knowledge and opinions on his issue is unique, since he has been a participant; not an outsider. There is no question regarding notability. The way to improve this article is by expansion, not deletion. Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:18, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

  • He doesn't seem to pass WP:ACADEMIC, not least because he isn't one (the Institute is just a thinktank). And categorisation is irrelevant to notability; what evidence is there that he passes WP:BIO? Rd232 03:50, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    • Comment Wrong. James G. Lindsay passes the following guideslines

6. The person has held a major highest-level elected or appointed academic post at an academic institution or major academic society.

Washington Institute for Near East Policy is a major force in the I/P conflict and general Middle Eastern issues. Dismissing it as it's "just a thinktank," is dare I say, incredibly ignorant. If preferred, remove the Academic category. I won't fight.

7. The person has made substantial impact outside academia in their academic capacity.

If we consider the "thinktank" an "academic institution" (bear with me here), his involvement outside far exceeds. Being the head attorney of the UNRWA is major, especially when that head leaves on a bad note. Perhaps my logic is flawed, but yours is misguided. Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:04, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, these kinds of complaints a rather minor. Your concern boils down to a "dubious" category. Solution? Remove it. Guess where these kinds of complaints are expected to go? TALK. Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:05, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Erm, multiple noes. From Washington Institute for Near East Policy: a "Washington, DC-based think tank". Not only that, but it was founded by "Martin Indyk, a research director for AIPAC" - not exactly a university spinoff, is it? Ergo he's not an academic. His position at UNRWA preceded his Institute appointment, so it can hardly be an impact "in his academic capacity". And I don't care about the categorisation at this point, we're discussing whether the article should be deleted or not. In any case, even if we were to accept him as an academic, he would still fail notability on that point - see WP:ACADEMIC note 13 clarifying the meaning of the Criterion 6 you quote above: "a major highest-level elected or appointed academic post at an academic institution". Finally, per Scopus he has no academic publications that I can see. Rd232 04:35, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Still disagree, however I suggest the dispute be merged with talk to avoid derailment of AFD. If this is your argument for deletion, I rest my case. I agree the article hardly resembles the typical-academic bio, so a removal of the category "American academics" seems logical pending a more thorough discussion. But, again, this has little to do with the AFD. In fact, it has nothing to do with it. Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:42, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Nonsense: the article is proposed for deletion on grounds of notability. It is countered that he is a notable academic. I'm explaining he is not an academic and certainly not a notable academic. How exactly is that not relevant to this AFD? Rd232 13:19, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

• Comment This article , for example, in the Jewish Standard speaks to the issue of making "substantial impact outside academia in their academic capacity." He is interviewed as an expert on UNWRA in this article, in relation to enforcement of the U.S. 1961 Foreign Assistance Act. Tundrabuggy (talk) 05:36, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

  As explained above he's not an academic (he has no academic, peer reviewed publications). He could still be considered to meet the general notability guidelines if there was substantial coverage of him. There doesn't seem to be. Rd232 13:19, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

• Move. Given his report has received answer from the UNRWA itself, it has become notorious. It is even stated it should received new ones. More, it seems that this person is notorious (maybe not reliable but that is not the point) concerning this organisation. I would suggest to slighlty modify to content and to move to James Lindsay's report about UNRWA. Ceedjee (talk) 11:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment The report plays a pivotal rule in the article, but it isn't the article. I don't see how we could possibly craft an article like "James Lindsay's report about the UNRWA." It seems extremely silly when what we have is basically the same thing with relevant character info and relationships beyond the UNRWA. Plus, the major parts of the report which explicitly judge the UNRWA are currently in the UNRWA article (linked above). It makes no sense to create a new article that would likely end up being just a content fork of the UNRWA section. Wikifan12345 (talk) 11:29, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Then I think more information should be found/added about Lindsay because he is on the edge for what concerns his notoriaty... Eg, his predecessors and successors at his posts don't have articles (have they ?). If he is notorious only his report, that makes things hard... Ceedjee (talk) 11:41, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • By virtue of being one of the few employees (former or otherwise) of the UNRWA to criticize the organization establishes notoriety. That is the hook, factor in UN response, etc...it paints a nice pretty picture of reasonable notoriety. The lead speaks for itself. And if I recall, claim of notoriety was made the moment of creation. We had a thorough discussion in talk which resulted in a general consensus. Since then, the article has been edited and improved. If there were concerns about moving/merging/deleting, it should have been made in talk. Frick, why am I even responding. Nab should be blocked for crap like this. Wikifan12345 (talk) 11:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
      • If you want to propose a Misplaced Pages:Notoriety guideline, feel free. For now, we have Misplaced Pages:Notability. Rd232 13:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

For nominating an article for deletion that I do not think meets the standards? Please keep the discussion on topic, if you have a problem with me take it to an admin noticeboard. Nableezy (talk) 11:53, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

How about no. You don't like what I say, get an admin. I've responded to each and every little "concerns" here, something you haven't done. I'm just too lazy to send you off to the noticeboards, and to be honest this is actually kind of entertaining. If you plan on solidifying your efforts to disrupt and complete your quest to obtain Boss-level status, I suggest asking for the opinion of admin User:William M. Connolley. He really likes me. A lot. Wikifan12345 (talk) 12:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

That attitude is extremely unhelpful. Leave your personal dispute out of this, it is disrupting an AFD, which regardless of eventual outcome, is nominated for concerns not prima facie unreasonable, even if you disagree with them. Rd232 13:26, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. —Rd232 13:35, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Comment This AFD is unreasonable. I will add just once, I believe this has been attempt to distract myself from the on-going dispute at Charities accused of ties to terrorism. Anyways, You didn't seem to have a problem with Nableezy's behavior and disruptive tactics. I suggest you take a look at Nableezy's recent history and read this: Misplaced Pages:Gaming the system. Back to the AFD: Your claims of academic notoriety are reasonable. Yet they are hardly a putting excuse for deletion. There is one reference to him being an academic, and that is in the category section. I cannot believe we spent 3 paragraphs arguing over the simplest of concerns. Minor disputes like those should be dealt with in the talk discussion. The question of notoriety was already discussed in the talk section. Any other concerns? Have we not italicized enough keywords? Maybe we should delete the article because of that....: ) Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The AFD is not, per se, unreasonable, regardless of the context of personal disputes I neither know nor care about. Your "prior discussion" link is essentially you arguing he's notable because of UNRWA, a point you haven't made here and which I doubt flies past WP:N without WP:RS; and others not agreeing with you. PS Your sarcasm is not helpful, and the issue is not "notoriety" but "notability". Show it, instead of rejecting/disrupting the AFD process. PPS Deleting a bio for lack of notability of the subject has little relevance for any other articles that may rely on reports written by the subject. Many, if not most references used on WP are authored by people who don't have WP bios. Rd232 21:25, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The article is...per se, unreasonable. I believe you really don't understand the article, because this was your first claim: "(merging any useful material to UNRWA first). Doesn't seem notable enough for own article (and by the by bio info is dangerously close to copyvio of the sources)." A) Information petinent to the UNRWA (directly) is in the UNRWA article. As is his commentary on Palestinian refugees. Following this concern, you said he wasn't an academic and inferred that is why the article should be deleted. A) That is silly, because the article is not written based on whatever academia he has been involved in. And B) The only 100% provable reference to academia is in the category section. So, now you want to go into a long pointless debate into notability which has been exhausted? Please. Nableezy and you should have gone to talk. No concerns were made, his submission for this to be deleted started right after our feud. Like, 20 mins later. You as an admin should at least recognize that and failure to do so reflects your objectivity. Sorry. Hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings here, but it seems people can get away with a lot of crap before something happens. Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:36, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

For the last time: articles that do not demonstrate notability of the subject may be deleted. This is what the AFD process is for. If you want to keep the article, then argue for the subject's notability, with relevant sources. If you're unable or unwilling to do so, your participation here is a waste of everyone's time. Rd232 21:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Comment Since you've willingly ignored your actions, I'll continue. Here's Nableezy's rationale, I'm breaking it down for simplification: "Almost the entire article is devoted to Lindsay's opinions of the UNRWA." Incorrect. Lead provides info of his leadership role in Multinational Force and Observers. Also includes information in his relationship with Washington Institute for Near East Policy. First section is typical stuff, education, military experience...not particularly notable. 3rd section. Definitely defines the article. Section relates to a report we all know and want to put under the rug. Report is extremely notable, having been influential towards recognizing the Palestinian refugee problems. Report was notable enough to warrant a from the United Nations Article is sourced by several reputable references, such as BBC, United Nations, CNN, and the Jerusalem Post. A nearly similar convo took place here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:James_G._Lindsay#notability notability, talk. I don't see your or Nableezy's name there. If you want to drag this out even more please do. I just love roadblocks that disrupt collaboration, especially ones that are supported by administrators.

no claim of notability outside of having published a critique of the UNRWA is made. Everything in the article could go in to the UNRWA article; the entirety of the biographical information in the article is the lead and the single line on military service and education.

Basically same complaint but longer. Clearly you have under-stated the importance of the UNRWA and how it provides notability. Here is a closely-related person, Peter Hansen (UN). Does that lack notability? Aside from his involvement with the UNRWA, everything else is irrelevant...:D Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Most of that is repetition of irrelevance and point-missing which I'll ignore, having more than adequately addressed it before. I'll respond to your comparison with Peter Hansen (UN) by pointing out that Hansen was Commissioner-General, which is considered a diplomatic post, while Lindsay was merely general counsel. Rd232 22:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Apologies, I missed another point you buried in there, which seems to be Report Is Notable So He Should Have A Bio. But see WP:BLP1E. Rd232 23:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Nice dismissal. Of course, "merely general counsel." You've also had a pre-determined response, so I will no longer spend (waste) my time to generalized criticisms. I proved why the article is notable and why the claim regarding academics was totally over-stated and completely irrelevant to AFD. I've discovered a couple spelling errors. Shall we delete the article? Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

OK, nice. Helpful. Rd232 23:40, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

• Update Nableezy has accused me of canvassing in regards to this AFD. I didn't. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:16, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

  I can see why. But your subsequent explanation to him sounds reasonable (Misplaced Pages:Canvassing). Rd232 23:40, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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