Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:00, 20 April 2009

I see others have a user page that shows information about them. I'm not into that sort of thing.

Anyway, I made minor editing and posted discussions on various pages before, and decided to go ahead and register this name.

important

http://en.wikipedia.org/Emotional_abuse Added an external link and posted on the discussion page.

Hoping someone with better writing skills than mine can fix that page up. It is too important not too.

recent stuff

Four squigglies turn into Dream Focus 04:24, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Got to remember that. Dream Focus 04:24, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Two squigglies turns into ~~ and one turns into ~

Trying to help clean up the FDA page. http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Food_and_Drug_Administration

Got to ignore all the heresy, and only make references with proof to backup their claims on how corrupt and idiotic the FDA is.

Arbitrators election

I just nominated myself for the wikipedia arbitrators. I think I can do a fairly good job at that.

You have to keep it under 400 characters. Doh! I need to check the history of the article, to see how many characters I have on it. Just thought of that. I was wondering why they'd say that, and how anyone was suppose to know, since I doubt anyone sits there and counts every single letter.

This is my longer thing I was just spewing out from the top of my head, before deciding which bits to include. I submitted a smaller version of this of course.

I don't believe any one person should be able to decide if an article is deleted, or even a significant portion of itself deleted. Nor should this be decided by just whatever three random strangers are around at the time a third party moderator is called for. If dozens of people have contributed to an article over the years, and none of them had a problem with its size, then why should the opinion of a handful of people who don't care about the subject at all, be able to decide this? Most users will never bother to post their opinions unfortunately, and most people don't return to reread an article they liked, or mark it to watch, to keep track of what's going on. If there is ever a arbitration called for, to settle a dispute between editors, I'll make certain the "its too long, and I prefer short articles" excuse for editing is never considered valid. An article is judged by its context, not its length.

• The size of an article is never an excuse to erase information from it. If the information is valid to the article, it should remain. If it can be put on a side page, so be it. If not, leave it alone. I doubt most people mind scrolling down to read through a lengthy article, if they are interested in the subject.
• I don't know of this ever actually happening, but since so few people ever state their opinion before an article is deleted, it is possible that a group of friends from school, or a forum somewhere, could destroy someone's article, just for spite. Instead of just looking over the consensus of people who bothered to check the articles for deletion, and found something that thought themselves interested in reading about, I believe whoever goes to erase it should take the time to look it over.
• If a certain user has nominated that a hundred different articles be deleted in a single week, and has been voted down by others for the majority of them, I'll step in and say "hey, do some Googling if you don't think it they are notable, don't just flag everything for deletion because you've never heard of them, or haven't heard of the magazine in their reference section, and are too lazy too look it up and see if it is notable or not." I've only noticed one guy like that in the past, who seemed to nominate everything, including hit songs and songwriters that had their listings in the billboard charts. Yes, all articles should have a reference, however there is no reason to erase an article without spending three seconds Google for some yourself.

It looks like I'm going to loose of course, but at least I'm not coming in dead last. As long as there are candidates out there people believe are worse off than me, then I'm happy. Got to keep your expectations low enough in this world, so you won't ever be too disappointed. Dream Focus (talk) 01:56, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Things the wikipedia needs

• We need an option to inform us if someone is trying to delete an article we like(in its entirety or just a significant percentage of it) without having to get constant notifications every time one thing or another is edited in it. Not something decided in this particular election, but just wanted to get that out there.
  • Suggestion: Add the not-yet-created AfD page of the article you like to your watchlist. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:48, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
• There should be a list of which websites count as a notable third party reference, and which ones do not, someone deciding any which are suggested, and there a list of them, to thus avoid a lot of arguments about notability.

Notable guidelines not clear enough!

I asked for the opinions of others, but got no response here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)#Is_a_screenwriter_notable_if_his_movie_makes_70_million_dollars.3F

The debate was about an article for deletion, and whether someone met the notable guidelines, which I believe clearly they did under the rules. But a few others said otherwise, and thus it was deleted. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Temple_Mathews That someone with a long career writing highly profitable/successful movies, could be considered not notable enough to have an article, I find ridiculous. That is why we need a clear set of rules, which will prevent this, since the deletion of an article is based on the opinions of two or three people who want it gone, more often than not. It should be based on set rules, not just the opinion of whoever is around that day. Dream Focus (talk) 10:37, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

The American spelling of something is always the best

If you go to licorice you will find it forward it to the liquorice, which Webster dictionary defines as a "chiefly British variant of licorice". Since there are more English speaking Americans than the total population of all other English speaking countries combined, then why not use the proper American spelling? Dream Focus (talk) 08:24, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• Hi, there are replies on the article's talk page. - Pointillist (talk) 09:49, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Colored text in names

I see others doing it, so I'm going to try it now. Dream Focus

blue green yellow purple gray orange red pink

These are the only eight colors I can think up now. Numbers and the word blinking do nothing. Dream Focus (talk) 06:30, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Colors shows how to change the background color also, and that changing the text color can be done with numbers and apparently hexadecimal as well. Dream Focus (talk) 23:34, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages policy states it is not bound by rules, so don't be a jerk about it

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:NOTSTATUTE#Wikipedia_is_not_governed_by_statute Of course there should be some absolute rules, and if something comes up that warrants an exception to the rules, posted in the rule discussion area, and changes made. Dream Focus (talk) 11:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

When something is something is nominated for deletion, there should be the rules they are breaking automatically linked to.

Did you know there is a set of rules for porn stars? I happened upon that while looking at regular biographies, and found that if someone has appeared several times in Playboy, then they count as notable, that the argument I used for one model not to have the article about her deleted. I don't read Playboy, since I prefer nonthreatening cartoon girls to real women, but I don't believe in arbitrary deletions. I have nominated my first article for deletion, because it is obviously an ad, created by people who are connected to the game and admit it, and hasn't gotten reviewed anywhere other than places that review anything at all, or allow people to upload reviews about anything. I checked some of the people who were posting support of the article, and found many of them had never posted anywhere else at all before, or since, which I find rather suspicious. They are either the same person, work for that company, or are perhaps fans from their official forum. Anyway, the lack of any notable third party coverage was the reason I nominated it. Dream Focus (talk) 16:13, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages budget questions

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/9/9c/08-09budget.png I assume that when it says Technology, it means the servers. Do they keep buying new ones? What about the administration cost? That seems a lot. If volunteers do everything, why do you need a large staff? How many people are necessary just to keep the servers and wikipedia itself running? How much of that money is for the people that do the outreach programs.

http://wikimediafoundation.org/Donate/Questions/en "Cutting spending is straightforward: if necessary, the Executive Director would institute a non-essential spending freeze. Freezes can range from "soft" - e.g., putting a hold on consultants and other discretionary spending, scaling back on travel, and deferring new hires such as the Chief Program Officer, to "strict" - e.g., deferring tech purchases, canceling planned spending for outreach events, etc. We would see what's necessary."

So, what if people want to donate to help the wikipedia, but don't care about your travel expenses, outreach nonsense(we travel to schools to tell them about the wikipedia, despite the fact that everyone already knows about it!), consultants, etc? And about this consultants nonsense. You should listen to the editors here, not someone else, who is probably someone's relative or friend they hire to tell you things you already know, or can look up on the Misplaced Pages to figure out. I want to know what these consultants get paid, and exactly, word for word, what brilliant advice they give you. Dream Focus (talk) 01:01, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/File:Wikimedia_Foundation_organization_chart.svg shows they have 19 employees. Now then, are all of their salaries included in the $1,619,000 administration section, or are some in the various other departments? $1,619,000 divided by 19 equals $85,000 per person. Of course, that is if everyone got paid the same, and I find that very unlikely to happen. So, who gets paid what with our donations, and why do they deserve that much money? Dream Focus (talk) 01:25, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Notability

I was discussing this over at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(fiction) and decided to put my point here for summary.

Consensus means a handful of people around at the time will decide everything, since the overwhelming majority of people will never get involved in any AFD discussion. Most articles nominated for deletion seem to be nominated and voted on by the same people, none of which were elected. If a different group were around that day, the consensus could shift the opposite way. You almost never have every single person agree on whether something should be deleted or allowed to remain, and they all have different reasons for trying to get rid of something, often based on their personal beliefs on what wikipedia should be, or their interpretation of the various incomplete and often changing policies. This is not a good way to have things done. We need a set of rules set down for things like this. Dream Focus (talk) 13:32, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

List of all legitimate media to determine notability

Shouldn't there be a list somewhere of exactly which media sources are considered to be legitimate for a reference for something? When the question of notability came up, this would make it a lot easier to determine, we able to simple search those specific sites. I suggest creating a list which people can add to and discuss for this purpose. This would be especially helpful in determining the notability of something not officially released in English yet, since many sources normally referenced for such things, do not review them until that happens. For example, I recently searched for a manga by its Japanese name, and the name of its author, on Google. I got plenty of results for it, but don't know how to narrow my search, since I don't know the names of any Japanese newspapers or other sources that might review manga, and be considered a valid reference, so I can't narrow my search down. Dream Focus (talk) 13:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a MMORPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_an_MMORPG I found that amusing and quite well done. Dream Focus (talk) 03:17, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Please stop the deletionist from destroying wikipedia!

The wikipedia articles of deletion have different categories they are sorted into. For instance, Anime and manga. If you find a category for something you are interested in, you can then help prevent articles you like, from being deleted on wikipedia. Remember, all deletion discussions come down to the opinions of whatever small number of people are around at the time to notice, and have the courage to speak up, so even one person could matter. You have the power to help save the wikipedia. The policies are a suggestion, simple guidelines, not absolute laws. And sometimes something won't get added even after years of people suggesting it, because of how wikipedia is set up, things just changing slowly it seems. So if you believe being on the bestsellers list, or being published regularly in a high selling magazine makes something notable, you have to vote Keep on those discussions, otherwise someone will delete it. Dream Focus (talk) 13:39, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/Flat#Topical is where you can find all the various categories, and sign up for whichever ones you wish to patrol, or just look around at times if you decide you want to get involved. Be prepared to hear the same arguments every single time though.

Snotty Elitist Deletionist

1. "Its not encylopedic! I believe we should erase every single article that wouldn't impress all the snotty elistists. I want Misplaced Pages to be taken seriously by the snobs, instead of just being loved and used by millions of common folk. I ask myself, is this something the Harvard graduates working at a major big city newspaper would like? What about other members of high society? Its not in style unless the fashion magazines tell us it is, and you can't be seen wearing something that simply isn't something they personally consider tasteful at the moment. We should try to think for ourselves, and form our own opinions, just do whatever the popular kids might want us to do."
2. "It doesn't matter how many hundreds of thousands of blogs that Goolge says mention it, nor even if its on the bestseller's list, with comfirmable sales of over a million. No matter how successful and well loved you are, or popular with the common people, you aren't notable until someone in a major newspaper or magazine says you are! If you don't have at least one mention in one those sources, then you aren't notable, and we should delete you."
3. "The article is too long. I don't care if the information is interesting or belongs in the article, I just don't like long articles. I never read any articles, just skim briefly over them, and I like them to be short and have as little useful or interesting information as possible. All that other stuff belongs over at the wikia, but I'll delete any links you make to it, because I don't want all the people that used to come here to read the information I'm deleting, to know where you moved it to, and go there instead. We want to keep people coming here, even though we hate the types of people they are, and only want to impress elitists like ourselves."

After a recent hurricane, there was a picture I came across of a car with a tree blown down atop it, its owner unable to move it. Because it wasn't suppose to be there at night, someone gave them a parking ticket, because that's what the rules said to do. If the rule follower had used common sense, they would've known that the rules had a purpose to them, and that this purpose was not met by giving a ticket to the person for something they couldn't help. Alas, some people are unable to or unwilling to do anything else but mindlessly follow rules.

I often find a lot of wikipedia editors acting this way. The rule for notability has a purpose, but it isn't to keep bestselling novels from having their own article, just because they haven't been reviewed by anyone. This is why it clearly states that the policies are just a guideline, not an absolute law, and to ignore the rules and use common sense. Dream Focus 19:39, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

A tool that keeps track of how many articles someone has nominated for deletion

http://toolserver.org/~sql/afd.php?user=Collectonian Since I posted a question in the canvasing topic, I had it on my watch list. I go there, and found someone mentioned this tool, and yes, it pointed to the same deletionist who has posted in my user page previously. Over three hundred articles nominated for deletion, most of them voted to be kept by others it seems. I found that interesting. Dream Focus (talk) 09:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Gantz wiki, and other wikis at www.wikia.com

If you like detailed articles with a lot of useful/interesting content, and plenty of side articles for everything anyone could possibly want to read about, the www.wikia.com is the place to go. Owned by the wikipedia, but allows people more freedom to write, no limitations there. Its paid for by ad banners, which recently have gotten rather disturbing unfortunately. But ad blocking software was designed for that. I suggest Adblock Plus for Firefox. I originally allowed the ad banners to appear in my browser, thinking that was only fair, they needing to pay their bills. But now, seeing the constant and much too graphic penis enlargement pill ads, I'm thinking I need to just start blocking it again. Anyway, despite that, it is a wonderful place to be.

I added a lot of the information to the Gantz wiki http://gantz.wikia.com/Gantz_Wiki bringing back useful information after a large portion of relevant information was deleted on the wikipedia Gantz article, by someone who decided the article was too long, and refused to communicate about the content. I then expanded it greatly. I'm quite proud of my work there.

Officially I'm only the administrator of the Voltron Wiki, I creating that since no one had yet, and I wanted to preserve information deleted from that page which I found interesting to read. I had hoped some Voltron fan would take over, but alas, I failed to get anyone interested in doing that. I organized it and added things to it.

I found the Marvel wiki to be a wondrous thing, there a lot of interesting things to read, and no one ever complaining about an article's length, as long as it has relevant information in it. Dream Focus (talk) 14:52, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Apparently the policy on linking to external wikis has changed!

I'm debating this injustice/insanity here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:External_links#Was_there_an_actual_vote_on_the_rules_of_external_wikis.2C_or_was_it_just_a_handful_of_people_around_at_the_time_stating_their_opinions.3F

Please join in. Dream Focus (talk) 15:57, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Notability problems

Just made another brilliant post of mine(joking, not that arrogant) on the wikipedia notability talk page. I'll post it here now:

• This sounds familiar. I started a previous debate on why the opinions of just two reviewers made something notable, while the reviews of a hundred thousand people on blogs and forums did not. If you are notable for being reviewed in a magazine that has 50 thousand subscribers, then why aren't you notable for being featured regularly in a magazine that has several times that many subscribers? Why is being published in Jump comics not make you notable, but being reviewed in a magazine of far lesser sales figures does? Horrible system really. I believe someone did mention how companies could do Google bombing, to get more search results with their products name. But they could just as easily buy ad space in any news source, and insure they get a good mention, that happening quite often. If something is published by a company that also owns newspapers and magazines, chances are, it will get mentioned. That's why confirmable sales figures are so important. Although honestly now, if more articles got created that might not be as notable as people think, it wouldn't harm anything. You wouldn't even notice it, unless you went looking for it. Better to include, then it is to delete. Dream Focus (talk) 23:58, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Of interest to you, I think...

Misplaced Pages:Notability/RFC:Reevaluation

I very much support you and urge you to continue to fight the good fight re: WP:ANIME. 159.182.1.4 (talk) 14:38, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Merge often means Delete, with nothing at all merged

Apparently as long as the author's page has the name of the series, and the year it came out at, then you don't have to merge anything at all. You just redirect there. So why call it a merge, when nothing is merged? Just call it a delete.

Here are three examples where the majority said Merge, and not a thing got merged, it deleted. Akane-chan Overdrive AFD Hate to Love you AFD Clow Cards AFD Dream Focus 19:03, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

• Two points. #1 You can merge things still and #2 a redirect is different than a merge. That said, I do dislike AfDs where merge is an outcome for the reasons you just described. I'll do the merge when I feel I can (and have time) but often the merge is really just a redirect and I don't feel I know the area well enough to fix it. Hobit (talk) 17:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
• Merge was attempted http://en.wikipedia.org/Akane-chan_Overdrive and reverted, people speaking out against that on the talk page saying Merge was voted on. One editor agreed to tolerate a bit for now, stating elsewhere it didn't matter, it'd be reverted eventually, and then she herself reverted that little summary bit days later when less people were around to notice. As far as the Clow Cards is concerned, there is no possible way to merge any of that information over, nor was there any reason to bother it at all to begin with. This happens all the time, those just a few examples of it. Dream Focus 18:07, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Proposed for Deletion, is the same as Deletion only without the review

http://en.wikipedia.org/Category:All_articles_proposed_for_deletion Horrible isn't it folks? If you want to erase something, without having a debate about it, you can just tag it for a speed delete. If no one is around to notice or care within a week's time, then it gets deleted automatically. Now admittedly, some of those articles are basically just one sentence, someone goofing around with a hoax, or violate the rules, but that's not the point. It should be categorizes and sorted appropriately, so those who look over such things can protest. Otherwise they can just sneak it past you, since you aren't going to visit every single article of the type you enjoy, repeatedly, at least once a week forever to check up on it. I was looking over it and found a band nominated for speed deletion, despite a quick Google search finding them listed on MTV and elsewhere, and having had their video played on MTV as well. I edited the Cake in a mug article, adding in two references to major third party news publications, and removed its speedy delete tag. Googling for it found it to be quite a popular type of cake, getting over 60 thousand hits for its name. Dream Focus 02:26, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

• • Articles deleted via prod will be (should be) restored on request. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:52, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Administrators have the right to ignore AFD process

Administrators have the right to cut short an active discussion on the Articles for Deletion review short, simply because they decided it didn't meet the requirements for notability. I thought that was the reason for consensus, as opposed to the opinion of just one person? Oh well. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Vellian_Crowler is the article in question. Another page which is basically the same thing, that is a page dedicated to a main character, is being discussed right now as well, the overwhelming majority of votes there keep thus far. Not sure how this page would've ended up, but still, every other debate lasts longer than that, before a decision is reached. Dream Focus 02:28, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Another deletionist admits to deleting less popular things first, then going for the big ones

As many of us already know, deletionist usually pick on targets that have few active editors around to defend them. That's why pages which are exactly the same, don't get bothered. One deletionist posted his tactic for taking out all the smaller stuff first, hoping to get rid of some editors, to be able to take out the bigger things later on. See it here. Over at the discussion for Albedo Xenosaga AFD a link was made to there, along with some interesting discussions. It all comes down to some people wishing the wikipedia to be more "encyclopedic", by deleting everything they can get away with. This includes articles no one would ever find their way to if they weren't looking for them, and which they have no reason to delete. Only hoaxes, spams, personal promotion, and things of that nature should ever be deleted. For everything else, just let it be. Dream Focus 02:36, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's deletionists driving people away to the wikia instead

I just came across yet another all too common subject on the wikipedia. Why the removal? he asks. Why indeed. There is no limit of space, no one doubts the content in the article is valid, and don't use some fool rule about notability as an excuse to delete something you decided you wanted gone anyway. The deletionist wish to drive people away from the wikipedia, they now having to elsewhere to find the information. I wonder if the founder of wikipedia doesn't encourage this, since he makes no money at all from the wikipedia, but does profit from the ad banners over at the wikia, which he founded. If not, he really should. They formerly had a policy which stated that you should just move all the extra stuff to a wikia, and link to it, someone removing that now though. Just tell people outright, If you want to find detailed information on every single character, item, and concept, check the wikia instead. The wikipedia only has short pointless summaries allowed, which will contain almost nothing of value or interest to anyone. That'd be a good banner to put up top of all the fiction articles. Dream Focus 02:49, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Rescue squadron to the Rescue!

This user rescues articles for the Article Rescue Squadron.

After deciding to join the Rescue Squadron, I decided to write the first thing that fell out of my head.

When reason fails, societies break apart, and civilization crumbles around them. We must strive to stop the insanity here and now, not just to put out the fires others keep starting, but to rebuild what they have destroyed, restoring what was lost to us, so that the wikipedia can once again be what it was meant to be. Wiki means "casual", it an encyclopedia where anyone can edit, and add to as they see fit, without fear of overjudgmental people picking apart every little thing they do, and trying to erase it if it isn't just perfect by their standards.

Thinking that'd be a good story. So here I go:

The great civilization that was

Wiki means casual. What a great name for a city. Back in the days, it was paradise, wanderers of all sorts passing through, and setting up shop. A few simple build codes were enacted, but mostly it was just left to the common sense and decency of these tolerant and enthusiastic people. And for a time, it was good. Then after the great city was built, there came a group who decided to take over, and change things to their liking.

"Under the new build codes, 99% of your houses are cruft! They have to be torn down!" they said. "If it isn't nice enough to impress the elitists, then I don't want to see it at all."

And some rushed to save their many structures, but the attacks kept coming, and even treasured old homes they once thought safe, went under attack time and again, until no one was around at the time to defend them. And these were lost to us.

And when they did manage to gather enough protest to preserve a home, it still was not enough to keep it for very long.

"Fine!" said some of the elitists. "We'll let you keep your homes, but we're still knocking down 90% of them, to make them look better. Its called compromising."

"What? That doesn't make sense!"

"It doesn't have to! The rules are the rules, we passing them to allow us to do what we want, and arguing until all others give up in frustration. Don't you know how to compromise?"

"You never walk down these streets anyway. You would've even notice they were there."

"If you can take the time to pave your streets in gold, and make everything beautiful to look at, then don't go complaining when we tear the mess down. Its all cruft anyway."

"There are some buildings exactly the same as these left alone though."

"That's because there are too many people around to stop us. Don't worry though. We'll get them eventually." Dream Focus 18:48, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

AFD says overwhelming Keep, but it gets deleted anyway

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#History_of_quaternions

I'm not sure why some are bothered by the Keep consensus of the AFD. Apparently the outcome is only enforced if they agree with it. The process means nothing if it is not enforced.

If an article is deleted by consensus at AFD, and someone keeps trying to recreate it, they are stopped. But if an article is voted Keep by consensus at AFD, and someone tries to erase all the information there, then some find no problems with that at all. Dream Focus 02:17, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, it seems to have been closed rather quickly. So, if you want to delete an article, you can do so, no matter how many people say Keep on the AFD. A lot of people agreed with me, mostly by reverting the constant redirects, not that they stayed reverted for long. Dream Focus 16:33, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

After much complaining, did get this page back again, although much reduced. They still had no right to try to destroy it, ignoring consensus, to begin with. Just thought I'd update that. Sometimes the good guys do win. Dream Focus 22:58, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

How editing an article should be done

• Don't delete something because it isn't perfect. If you think it needs a reference, then give it one of the citation needed tags. If you believe the reference or name of something in the article should be translated into English, then say so, but don't go erasing it outright. If you don't like how it is written, then discuss it on the talk page, or fix it yourself.
• If you believe the article is too long, then look for information that doesn't belong there, don't just erase a large chunk of it, without bothering to read it, and expect someone else to add back in anything valid you just happen to have wiped out.
• Remember that no article is ever uploaded 100% complete. It is built and improved upon over time by different editors.
• If you delete another editors work, then discuss it on the talk page. Explain the reason why. Most problems could be solved with proper communications.
• If you don't like a certain type of article, and don't believe they should exists at all, such as character pages, then don't go looking for them just to try to delete them, and when you fail to get consensus to do that, delete 90% of it anyway, calling it all fancruft. Fans enjoy reading the information you consider junk, and if you aren't a fan of the series, you wouldn't find your way to that article to begin with. Don't be a snobby elitists and seek to destroy what others enjoy reading, simply because you don't like it.
• You do not help the wikipedia by deleting things others may with to read. You help it by adding to, not taking from. The only exception is of course hoaxes, spam, and trolls.
• A redirect is the same thing is a delete. So is a merge, when nothing is actually merged, you knowing very well you couldn't fit even a tenth of that information on the other page. If you want something deleted, then vote delete, don't try to deceive others into voting for redirect or merge, thinking that is any different than deleting it outright. Note, sometimes you can merge things, but often times I don't see one sentence at all, as mentioned in examples previously by me.

Dream Focus 16:46, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

No matter how obvious it is to some people, if a notable person hasn't said it, some can not believe it is true

http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Airi_%26_Meiri#Do_you_really_need_a_citation_for_something_this_obvious.3F

Someone posted a request for help on the Articles for Deletion list, and I went there, despite not caring about the subject matter(I like my girls animated, thank you very much). One editor posted a citations needed tag next to a statement that the girls are twins. I asked about this on the talk page, and he honestly isn't convinced they are identical twins, despite the fact they look identical. Another editor states he isn't convince otherwise, since there is no notable media sources that say it. I'm not joking either. Apparently he believes it could be a marketing scam.

My final reply:

So looking at them, they both apparently identical, you aren't 100% convinced that they are in fact identical twins, and require proof in this case. That is honestly the stupidest things I have ever heard. When you hear rain outside, and someone looks out the window and says it is rain, and you turn and see rain falling also for yourself, do you believe it is raining and accept that, or do you have to wait and hear it from a weatherman to believe its real? "Maybe someone is just using a water hose or something, and playing thunderstorm noises with their MP3 player. Happens all the time in this industry. Don't ever think for yourself. If you can't get someone notable to tell you something, then you can't accept the slightest possibility that it is real." Dream Focus 00:21, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I think that's a good example of the mind set. I see this a lot in life. People who can't decide if they like something or not, or should be wearing it, unless some notable media source tells them its in style.

There was a woman recently in the news who ordered chicken McNuggets at McDonalds, and after paying, was told they ran out. She asked for her money back, but was informed by the idiot sales person, that company policy was to not give refunds once an order was placed. She was unable to reason with this person, who could only mindlessly follow regulations, without any possibility of thinking for themselves.

Dream Focus 00:33, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

To save a song

If you want to save an article for a song, then this is how. Misplaced Pages rules state Songs that have been ranked on national or significant music charts, that have won significant awards or honors or that have been performed independently by several notable artists, bands or groups are probably notable.

There are sites that list what bands have had their songs covered by others. One of those is: http://www.covertrek.com/findArtist.html You can then search to see if those cover bands are notable.

If you want to find out how well something placed in the charts, then you can search www.billboard.com or just Google for the word "bestseller" to see how well it did. I don't think you can become a bestseller, or "hit single" without being high in the charts.

Not sure if there are any sites out there that have an easy search for all notable awards for things or not. If so, it'd be a good resource to use.

Hope this helps someone. Dream Focus 12:17, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

South Park episode pages threatened by deletionists

http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:List_of_South_Park_episodes#Episode_notability I think I made my case fairly well. If they didn't have as many fans around, it would've been deleted outright. I wonder if some of the deletionists want to delete them because they don't follow the rules, or do they simply not like that sort of article. Probably a mixture of both, or perhaps a misguided belief they are helping the wikipedia by erasing all the interesting things people read on it.

A question I asked there was:

• Since there is no way to meet the requirement for notability for most article pages, what should be done with those articles?
  • Delete them all, because of the current rules.
  • Keep them anyway, ignoring the rules.
  • Go to where rules are at, and try to have them changed, so that episode lists, and trivia are allowed.

Dream Focus 05:30, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

The only way to save the pages, is to change the rules of notability. So, I got that poll started here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Notability#Voting_time.___Any_television_series_that_has_at_least_a_million_viewers.2C_may_have_an_article_for_every_episode

Dream Focus 06:22, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

The stupidest tag in all of wikipedia

This article may contain an excessive amount of intricate detail that may interest only a particular audience. Please help by spinning off or relocating any relevant information, and removing excessive detail that may be against Misplaced Pages's inclusion policy. (Learn how and when to remove this message)

Well of course it would only interest a certain percentage of people! Every article out there doe that. If you don't like history, you wouldn't be interested in the history articles, and if you don't like a show, you won't be interested in it at all. Sheesh. Fancruft is a good thing. Those who don't like it, aren't likely to find those articles anyway, you only finding them by seeking them out because you are interested in them. Dream Focus 12:02, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

agree with you 100% on this one--Legeres (talk) 12:42, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's competition. Accuracy first, boredom second.

http://en.citizendium.org/Welcome_to_Citizendium I was searching the Misplaced Pages to find out how to make something appear after you click the fold down thing, and I happened upon an article on one of the original founders of wikipedia, who left and created citizendium. Interesting. Got to prove your credentials before you can post. I think its just for science, history, and whatnot, no popular culture. Otherwise it'd be like, "I'm the number one fan of this series! I own all their merchandise, and can memorize every single line from all four seasons of the cartoon, and -". Dream Focus 21:51, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Not a lot on their site, and they don't want things to be written in a way that the average person can understand. Not really competition with the wikipedia anytime soon. Dream Focus 16:20, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Turns out he wasn't a founder, he was just a paid employee who was in charge of wikipedia's development at a crucial stage. He decided that no one else could've made it successful but him, he responsible, and someone else taking all the credit, and that no other editor in chief at the time would've made it successful. I think a lot of people contributed, and it was the input of the community that shaped how things developed, not just one guy. Dream Focus 16:33, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Anyone know how to have a fold down list?

If anyone knows how to make it where you click something, and then something else appears, please let me know. I remember seeing it at places, but can't think where, or I'd just go there and look again. You hide the text, until someone clicks on a tag and makes it appear, thus allowing one to organize their stuff better. Dream Focus 16:20, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Use the {{Collapse top}} and {{Collapse bottom}} templates, but subst: them so that you can then edit all of the paramters directly (color, text in the box headers, etc). So:

{{subst:Collapse top}}
Stuff to be inside the box, which can be added to afterwards
{{subst:Collapse bottom}}

Add that one time, and save the page. Then go back and edit, and the templates will have been converted to the raw code used, so you then have full control over all of the parameters and text, and can add/change any of the content within the box itself. Hope this helps! Arakunem 18:15, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Excellent! Works great. Thank you for your assistance. Dream Focus 18:19, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

What I consider horrible editing practices

• Try to delete it with prod delete, since its the least likely method to get noticed.
• If anyone notices, then try to delete it with a speedy delete.
• If that fails, then nominated it for AFD, and argue a few days to try to get people to see things your way, and delete it.
• If the consensus(opinions of the majority of people around at the time who decided to comment) is to keep, then go ahead and delete it anyway, but call it a merge. No information will actually be merged, it just a delete, but with the history preserved.
• If all else fails, wait until attention dies down, and try one of the above tactics later on to get rid of it.

Also, it helps to erase as much of the article is possible, to make it look short and unimportant, so less people will bother trying to save it at all.

Complain about how people won't "compromise" and let you delete at least something, so you can satisfy your win at all cost mentality. Dream Focus 19:02, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Articles I find of interest

I've been meaning to do this for awhile now, so might as well get started. I read a lot of articles. The wikipedia does have a lot of interesting things on it.

• Ceiling_fans Did you know that before electricity, they use conveyor belts hooked to water wheels to turn rows of ceiling fans in some buildings?
• Jack_Sheppard I read this one awhile back and liked it. A little thief who got famous in his time for his bold escape from prison, etc. Interesting story.
• Progressive_Party_(United_States,_1912)
• List_of_common_misconceptions Napoleon wasn't short at all, the measurements done differently, and people getting confused. So much interesting stuff in there.
• Fairy_ring Don't worry folks. Its not evil spirits. Groups of super intelligent mushrooms just decided to grow in a circle and kill off everything else, to mess with our heads.

Dream Focus 21:31, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Move all wikipedia articles over to wikia. Same thing, but fairer rules. Then everyone is happy.

Over on the page someone mentioned there is a wikia set up where you can preserve any wikipedia article that is being deleted. http://annex.wikia.com/Main_Page is its location. I'm thinking if we could just copy every wikipedia article there is over to the wikia outright, then that'd make everyone happy. If you want to include everything interesting, go to the wikia. If you want short articles that far fewer, if anyone, will find interesting, stay at the wikipedia. The wikia doesn't need donations, its supported by ad banners. Please disable your ad blocking software, so they can make some money, and pay their bills. Dream Focus 18:21, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

It isn't a horse unless someone says it is, LOL!

An interesting discussion is going on over at the article page for the last episode of Battlestar Galatica. Some people refuse to think for themselves, saying you have to have someone considered notable say it for it to be true, no matter how obvious it is. Reasoning with them seems to be failing. Asking on the wikipedia policy page about that, and consensus thus far seems to be we should change the policy, to be more clear, to avoid problems. Dream Focus 00:43, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

A standard response to the same sort of articles that keep coming up for deletion

• Keep for the following reasons:

1. Enough information about the character to fill an article.
2. If you aren't interested in the article, you aren't likely to ever find it, unless you are specifically looking for things to delete(a rather horrible hobby to have).
3. There is no shortage of space on wikipedia, so no reason to delete something just because you don't like it. Some people will find the information interesting to read.
4. The notability guidelines are suggestions, not policy. You don't have to follow them, and shouldn't just use them as an excuse to delete something you don't like, for whatever reason.

I'm thinking since the exact same types of articles keep getting nominated for deletion, might as well respond in the same way to the same tired old story. All arguments have all been said and done before, for this particular issue anyway. Dream Focus 19:57, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

A tool we need

Whenever an article goes up for AFD, its only fair to contact all the major contributors of it, so they are aware someone is trying to destroy something they put a significant amount of work into. Many of these articles have been around for years, and no editor is able to keep everything they worked on, on their watchlist, otherwise it'd be too flooded with things each day to find anything at all.

The history of an article already displays the information we need. Just need a program to count each time a name appears, as well as counts the amount of information added. Either of these things indicates a considerable amount of work has been done on it by the person, and thus they should be informed of this. There is already a tool that list how many the editors of an article, according to how many edits they made, however we really need one to check the amount, since some people make long edits, without needing to go back and change things constantly, doing that whole proofreading thing. Dream Focus 15:26, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

four hyphens equal a solid line

Did you know that four - makes a solid line?

Just saw someone put a line somewhere, used edit to find out how, and learned something new today about wikipedia. Dream Focus 15:50, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Common sense beats bias and idiotic notability guidelines!

I mention on a policy discussion page, that you don't need to meet any notability requirements to have some articles kept, and mentioned a bestselling novel, Dragons_of_Summer_Flame as an example. A deletionist then went and nominated the article for deletion. The overwhelming response is Keep. I think some very interesting points were made there. Dream Focus 17:31, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

A discussion is being had because of this on changing the Notability guidelines. I'm glad progress is being made. Dream Focus 02:50, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

New search options would eliminate concerns entirely

Articles already have a rating based on how well written they are. Why not have a search option to allow people to search only for this, who are afraid they'll happen upon some low quality crap they don't want to see? How is this for options for the modified search feature?

1. Rating on the Assessment scale
2. Rating on the Importance of topic scale
3. Some believe no article should exist without third party media references. I don't see why the opinions of a small number of people that review things in magazines, is more important than the millions of fans of a series, but whatever, to each their own. To prevent people from trying to delete articles based on this, we can just have it so that no one can access these articles, without clicking on the option saying you don't think it matters.
4. Whether it has fancruft or not. By labeling the article is fancruff, instead of just deleting it, we can make everyone happy. No one will possibly be able to find it in a search, without specifically selecting that option.

And thus everyone is happy. Dream Focus 02:50, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Good idea, but you face two issues, one impossible to overcome: technical, and policy (insurmountable). You have to convince two groups to do what you want: the techs, and the community at large. I personally like you a lot, but I don't think you have the political capital and broad based community support needed to successfully push through such a project.

I would float your idea on WP:VPT first, to see if there is the will to do what you want, it is technically possible, but they will ask is it practicle? That is the question editors will have that you have to answer.

First, #3 needs to be cleaned up and more clearly explained. I am not sure what you are trying to say.

Sorry to post on your user page, you can move this as you wish. Ikip (talk) 13:38, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

• Post wherever you want, this is a good place for it. I asked for feedback after all. Anyway, I reworded it a bit to try to make it more coherent. Technical issues aren't a problem. You simply search for a tag each article has. You can do this through Google right now. Click here to search for everything that has a fancruft tag on it. And you can filter your searches through Google to exclude any site that has that specific sentence in it. Simple. Dream Focus 21:20, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

• Its done. I posted it here. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#New_search_engine_option.2C_so_everyone_is_happy.__The_tags_can_be_blocked_from_reviews. Dream Focus 21:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Is Misplaced Pages entertainment above all else?

Posting over in the discussion at the Treecat AFD and I found myself asking just how many articles are actually useful information someone can make use of, and how many are just entertainment. There are thousands of articles for types of insects, most of them not helping you in any way, it just interesting to people who study bugs. Some insects are useful or harmful, of course, so its important to know, but most are just bugs, and unless you are interested in learning about the bugs of the world, including the long extinct ones, its just entertainment, nothing more. Same way with knowing about Roman emperors, battles that happened thousands of years ago, and whatnot. If you are interested in it, its entertainment, but isn't going to be used for anything. And that's just fine with me. Dream Focus 21:07, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

AfD comments

Per the WP:ANI discussion, it must be clear to you now that you must refrain from attacking other editors at AfD. We had this conversation before - here - and I thought that you understood the concept that you can state opinions about what other editors do - "I don't think deleting this article is a good idea" - but you can't turn that into a personal attack - "This user is trying to destroy Misplaced Pages". Per this comment at ANI, please take this as a formal warning that if you attack other editors at AfD, or breach WP:NPA in other venues again, it will result in a block. Please don't let me - or another administrator - have to do this, because you have plenty to offer Misplaced Pages, if only you'd channel it in the right direction (i.e. improving articles, not arguing about them). Black Kite 19:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I misworded something again? I don't recall ever stating anyone by name was trying to destroy wikipedia. In the recent AFD, I only responded to things directed at me. If they don't respond to my statements, I don't respond to theirs. Dream Focus 19:30, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Isn't accusing someone on canvasing, and other nonsense constantly, wrong though? Dream Focus 19:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Depends if they are canvassing. I don't think you were, personally - others may disagree. What I'm talking about is comments like "You aren't helping wikipedia in any possible way. You are just destroying parts of it." or "Wow. You make vastly more constructive contributions by deleting articles? That's not a contribution. You don't help the wikipedia by destroying parts of it." on that AfD. Also, arguing that notability guidelines are just guidelines and so can be ignored isn't helping you, either. Lack of notability is a reason for deletion (see Misplaced Pages:DEL#REASON, which is a policy), so you need to find reasons why a certain article does assert notability, not attack other people. Thanks, Black Kite 19:40, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Dream:

Refactor >>> apologize profusely >> learn from your mistakes, by becoming more passive agressive, like other sucessful editors do on wikipedia. If you want to rant, email me and rant, but don't do it on wiki. I agree with all your comments, but these things are better left unsaid. Everytime you say something like you did in the AfD it only helps those editors who delete. It surely doesn't help you, it surely doesn't help your supporters who respect your work and tire of defending you over and over, it surely does not win an audience to save the article, it only helps those editors who delete. See my comments on the ANI.

It is clear these editors want to silence you.

Black Kite and all the other editors would have no ammunition against you if you simply refactored and apologized. I am growing weary, and I about ready to ignore these unfair attacks on you, because you refuse to listen to my repeated advice.

Black Kite, I think your position on deletions is opposite of Dream, you are not an unbiased neutral third party, and that you have no authority to give Dream ultimatiums. The only bad comment in the AfD which Dream is being attack for is:

"You aren't helping wikipedia in any possible way. You are just destroying parts of it"

...which does not rise to the leave of a personal attack, especially considering that admins such as User:JzG regularly tell editors to fuck off, with no penalties. The entire ANI was a bad faith attack. User:TheFarix made no effort to contact Dream first to resolve what he sees as a problem before launching the ANI.

Black Kite, I would suggest unwatching Dreams user page and let neutral parties handle this dispute, because you are not a netural third party. Ikip (talk) 20:45, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Good points. I was thinking since they said they were helping wikipedia, I could respond to that claim by stating obviously they were not. And you can't claim to being more constructive, when you aren't constructing anything, but destructing them instead. But, whatever. My reason was the number of Google hits, it surely well spoken of in many places, and that not happening if it wasn't notable. Apparent notability is what I always speak of, I not just objecting to the deletion of any article. I think certain people just look for every excuse they have to go against me, and anyone else who gets in their way. Dream Focus 20:55, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

The sad fact is, that disruptively deleting other editors contributions, ignoring WP:PRESERVE and WP:BEFORE is more disruptive than being blunt. Refactor out those comments in the AfD. Apologize in the AfD and the ANI.

I would suggest you find a netural admin to police your edits, an admin who these editors can go to and bitch too. Did you get a mentor like I suggested? Maybe you can float the idea of a neutral admin in the ANI. Maybe the same admin who will oversee the A Nobody/Jack argument?

I am not saying to lay down and play dead. You can argue what a bad faith ANI it was, and you can argue policy against your foes. But don't justify and try to explain away what others claim are "personal attacks", refactor and apologize, then they don't have this card in their deck to attack you with anymore.

In the future, put these editors on the offensive, like A Nobody (badly) attempts to do. Don't argue your philosophy, show edit diffs and quote policy. This is the strongest argument by far. Ikip (talk) 21:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Ikip, given the number of times I have patiently tried to explain the issues to Dream Focus above (just look up the page, in a number of sections), I can't think how you can claim that I'm not neutral. Not many people would've taken the time to respond step by step to his potential RfA question, for example. I am trying to ensure that DF does not get himself blocked here, because (as I said above) he obviously has a lot to offer. However, I'll reiterate - if he starts attacking other people like he did at that AfD again, I will block him, it's as simple as that - just as I would any other editor, whatever their views on AfD are. It's up to DF to ensure he doesn't do that. Let's hope I don't have to post here again. Black Kite 21:13, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Black Kite, I respectively disagree that you are a neutral party. I do sincerely respect your patience in working with Dream. The way you have handled this is why you are a successful editor.

Here is what will happen, editors will find a reason to get Dream blocked in an AFD.

The comments in the AfD did not rise to a blockable offense. The editor who created the ANI did not consult Dream first, as per ANI: "Before posting a grievance about a user here, it is advised that you take it up with them on their user talk page."

If you see a problem with Dream's edits on AFD in the future, please take it to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard, so another univolved netural admin can determine if it rises to the level of blocking. Ikip (talk) 21:23, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

About the recent nonsense

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Dream_Focus

• The same ridiculous accusations as always, without proof to back it up.
• Unrelated debate about something totally unrelated.
• Three deletionist who have all gone after me before, trying to gang up, and mislead people into believing I'm something that I'm not.
• Comments on out of context statements.
• Idle threats about banning me, in an attempt to intimidate me. Reminds of me of editors who post threats that someone is doing disruptive editing and will be banned, if they don't agree with them on something, even terrorizing new users without explaining what their problem is.
• People stating its alright for them to make the same arguments in every single AFD, but not for me to do the same. Plus other complaints about things I do, ignoring those there against me who often do the exact same thing.

And of course, some confusing discussion about policy.

"You must follow the notability guidelines, no matter what!"

"But we save articles all the time that don't meet any of the notability guidelines, such as bestselling novels."

"Well, there are exceptions."

"So I don't have to follow them all the time then? I can ignore them, making exceptions for things that are clearly notable."

"No, you can't just ignore them and follow your own rules."

"What? I ignore them all the time, and sometimes we get articles saved. There is no current rule that being a bestseller makes you notable, but whenever enough people with common sense show up to say Keep based on that, the article is saved. I've seen bestselling novels get deleted also, not enough around to protest their destruction."

"It isn't about votes."

"Articles that are identical, sometimes get deleted, and sometimes don't. It depends on who is there to vote at the time, most editors going with the majority."

That's basically how the argument keeps going. Not that it matters, since that isn't what we were suppose to be discussing anyway, they bringing up all sorts of nonsense. Dream Focus 18:19, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

• Please remove the paraphrasing of my remarks above, which clearly show you didn't read or understand them, and also the reference to them being "nonsense". Thanks. Black Kite 18:28, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Everything discussed there is irrelevant nonsense, wasn't referring to your bit specifically. And that is how I understand what you said. If you have a corrected version, to explain to me, so be it. But honestly now, is that not an accurate summary of the discussion? Dream Focus 18:51, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

OK. This is how it goes.

• We have notability guidelines. They are guidelines because they can't possibly cover every single one of the nearly 3,000,000 articles that we have. However, they are applicable to nearly all our articles.
• But you are making repeated comments on AfDs (I provided diffs) that we can just ignore the notability guidelines "because they're just guidelines". I explained that we can't, because per WP:DEL#REASON, failing notability is a reason to delete an article.
• I admitted that there will always be exceptions to any rule - of course there will. But you can't keep making this claim on random AfDs without explaining why that particular article should be exempt from notability.
• The novel that you keep mentioning as an exception wasn't even an exception, because as the AfD closure pointed out, being a best-selling NYT title is a claim of notability in itself, and thus it would be very unlikely that there would not be secondary sourcing (like for example) even if at that time it was not present.
• To sum up, in general we don't delete articles because they fail Misplaced Pages policy, we delete them because it is unlikely that they could ever pass.
• I think it is that difference that you are not grasping. Some articles fail WP:GNG but can clearly be improved to pass it, whilst others will never pass it. Those articles in the latter category cannot be saved by claiming that "notability is only a guidelines, so we can ignore it". We can't.
• I think I've covered everything, feel free to ask if it's still unclear! Black Kite 19:13, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

So, even though the guidelines don't accept sales figures as being a legitimate reason, you can still accept it because of the assumption that anything popular must have a review out there somewhere, even if no one can find it at the time. Does this cover every single bestselling novel there is? I'd find that unlikely.

And what of equally high sales of magazines and DVDs? Even if we can not find any reviews for it, can we just assume the same thing? Dream Focus 19:43, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

• Your reference is to a public library that has something a kid named "Jake" posted about a book he liked. That doesn't count as a legitimate reference. There are no references, therefore you have to admit the notability guidelines are idiotic, and should be ignored, until people agree to change them to make sense. Dream Focus 19:51, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

• Sorry, wrong link - fixed it now. "Popular" does not equal "notable", although it makes it more probable that it is the case. But in the end, the notability guidelines are necessary to Misplaced Pages's functioning, and definitely not idiotic - in 99% of cases they work extremely well. Remember that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a collection of everything that has ever existed. If you want to change WP:N, as I said, start a discussion about it. Until then, you will fare badly if you suggest that notability should be ignored at AfD. Black Kite 20:57, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

A passive mention in one sentence, saying it had an impressive 200,000 first run, doesn't really count as coverage. And I did try to discuss it before, over at the notability guideline pages, people split down the middle on whether to accept confirmable sales figures as proof of notability or not. Face it, there are no legitimate third party media review for that or many other bestselling novels, and by the rules the article should've been deleted, but fortunately wp:common sense and ignore all rules came into play here, and it was saved. Dream Focus 00:50, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Box Office results make it notable!

We decided at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Bleach:_Fade_to_Black,_I_Call_Your_Name that it didn't matter if it was an anime movie, it did well in Japanese theaters, and even without any coverage at all, it was clearly notable. Overwhelming Keep on that one too. Dream Focus 00:44, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

LOL! As of today, the notability guidelines for films have been updated. I wonder if I had been the one to change it, if someone would've reverted it within a few seconds. Dream Focus 22:05, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Articles about the relations between two nations

My new standard response for such things is:

• Keep If you search in the native languages of those two nations, you could surely find news articles about the relationship between them. Is it realistic to assume there has been absolutely no news coverage about trade or diplomatic meetings for decades? If we knew the names of all the big newspapers in those two countries, and did a proper search, surely we'd find something.

I think that fits well to any situation. Isn't my case a perfectly logical assumptions? Some languages don't have automatic translator problems for them, and those things don't work well on many languages where the sentence structure is too different than our own. Dream Focus 01:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Sign... what's the point of continuing?

"We decided that the proper interpretation of things is this, and we'll argue and revert nonstop until you give up and do it our way, so don't even bother." Don't you hate people like? I know I do.

• There is no possible way for people to watch every article they could be interested in, there just too many things appearing in their watchlist each day. So, articles they want to keep, and would vote(don't say it isn't a vote, because yes, actually it is) Keep, get nominated for deletion and are erased before they notice it. People with nothing better to do roam about constantly deleting everything they can get away with. Its a constant nonstop battle to save things, they not giving up until they get what they want. And its just a small number of people, who spend every waking moment on wikipedia, making insane numbers of edits, and delude themselves into thinking they are helping.

• I've decided its just too much work to try to reason with these people. They can't tell the difference between original research, and common sense, or when to ignore idiotic guidelines and use common sense to preserve something. Sometimes enough reasonable people are around to keep something, sometimes not. Its just random luck.

• I'm going to move on to other things, and stop bothering with wikipedia so much.

Dream Focus 05:00, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

• Wikipedians in the Article Rescue Squadron