Misplaced Pages

• • Comment- WF, one thing has nothing to do with the other, you need to stop making this about me and you. I don't care enough about you to plan my moves around what you may think. Let it go, make your points and leave my username out of it. I stated why I think it should be deleted, thats it. Nableezy (talk) 06:27, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment - Nab, you're not fooling anyone. Wikifan12345 (talk) 06:44, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I have wanted to delete this article since it was created, I gave you time to bring it up to standards, which I feel you have not done as you have not established notability, and then proposed deletion. This has nothing to do with anything else. Nableezy (talk) 11:37, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Well sorry, but I don't stalk every edit you make on wikipedia. I know why you want to trash this article, which explains your utter failure for going to talk or heck, even editing the article. Other editors such as Ceed, Cerejota, and Tundra had no problem doing so. C-o-l-l-a-b-o-r-a-t-i-o-n. Not, "delete articles that violate my POV." Even so, timing is key. I doubt many will buy the idea that you were AGF. Wikifan12345 (talk) 02:47, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

• • • By virtue of being one of the few employees (former or otherwise) of the UNRWA to criticize the organization establishes notoriety. That is the hook, factor in UN response, etc...it paints a nice pretty picture of reasonable notoriety. The lead speaks for itself. And if I recall, claim of notoriety was made the moment of creation. We had a thorough discussion in talk which resulted in a general consensus. Since then, the article has been edited and improved. If there were concerns about moving/merging/deleting, it should have been made in talk. Frick, why am I even responding. Nab should be blocked for crap like this. Wikifan12345 (talk) 11:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
      • If you want to propose a Misplaced Pages:Notoriety guideline, feel free. For now, we have Misplaced Pages:Notability. Rd232 13:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

For nominating an article for deletion that I do not think meets the standards? Please keep the discussion on topic, if you have a problem with me take it to an admin noticeboard. Nableezy (talk) 11:53, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

How about no. You don't like what I say, get an admin. I've responded to each and every little "concerns" here, something you haven't done. I'm just too lazy to send you off to the noticeboards, and to be honest this is actually kind of entertaining. If you plan on solidifying your efforts to disrupt and complete your quest to obtain Boss-level status, I suggest asking for the opinion of admin User:William M. Connolley. He really likes me. A lot. Wikifan12345 (talk) 12:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

That attitude is extremely unhelpful. Leave your personal dispute out of this, it is disrupting an AFD, which regardless of eventual outcome, is nominated for concerns not prima facie unreasonable, even if you disagree with them. Rd232 13:26, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Comment This AFD is unreasonable. I will add just once, I believe this has been attempt to distract myself from the on-going dispute at Charities accused of ties to terrorism. Anyways, You didn't seem to have a problem with Nableezy's behavior and disruptive tactics. I suggest you take a look at Nableezy's recent history and read this: Misplaced Pages:Gaming the system. Back to the AFD: Your claims of academic notoriety are reasonable. Yet they are hardly a putting excuse for deletion. There is one reference to him being an academic, and that is in the category section. I cannot believe we spent 3 paragraphs arguing over the simplest of concerns. Minor disputes like those should be dealt with in the talk discussion. The question of notoriety was already discussed in the talk section. Any other concerns? Have we not italicized enough keywords? Maybe we should delete the article because of that....: ) Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The AFD is not, per se, unreasonable, regardless of the context of personal disputes I neither know nor care about. Your "prior discussion" link is essentially you arguing he's notable because of UNRWA, a point you haven't made here and which I doubt flies past WP:N without WP:RS; and others not agreeing with you. PS Your sarcasm is not helpful, and the issue is not "notoriety" but "notability". Show it, instead of rejecting/disrupting the AFD process. PPS Deleting a bio for lack of notability of the subject has little relevance for any other articles that may rely on reports written by the subject. Many, if not most references used on WP are authored by people who don't have WP bios. Rd232 21:25, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The article is...per se, unreasonable. I believe you really don't understand the article, because this was your first claim: "(merging any useful material to UNRWA first). Doesn't seem notable enough for own article (and by the by bio info is dangerously close to copyvio of the sources)." A) Information petinent to the UNRWA (directly) is in the UNRWA article. As is his commentary on Palestinian refugees. Following this concern, you said he wasn't an academic and inferred that is why the article should be deleted. A) That is silly, because the article is not written based on whatever academia he has been involved in. And B) The only 100% provable reference to academia is in the category section. So, now you want to go into a long pointless debate into notability which has been exhausted? Please. Nableezy and you should have gone to talk. No concerns were made, his submission for this to be deleted started right after our feud. Like, 20 mins later. You as an admin should at least recognize that and failure to do so reflects your objectivity. Sorry. Hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings here, but it seems people can get away with a lot of crap before something happens. Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:36, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

For the last time: articles that do not demonstrate notability of the subject may be deleted. This is what the AFD process is for. If you want to keep the article, then argue for the subject's notability, with relevant sources. If you're unable or unwilling to do so, your participation here is a waste of everyone's time. Rd232 21:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Comment Since you've willingly ignored your actions, I'll continue. Here's Nableezy's rationale, I'm breaking it down for simplification: "Almost the entire article is devoted to Lindsay's opinions of the UNRWA." Incorrect. Lead provides info of his leadership role in Multinational Force and Observers. Also includes information in his relationship with Washington Institute for Near East Policy. First section is typical stuff, education, military experience...not particularly notable. 3rd section. Definitely defines the article. Section relates to a report we all know and want to put under the rug. Report is extremely notable, having been influential towards recognizing the Palestinian refugee problems. Report was notable enough to warrant a from the United Nations Article is sourced by several reputable references, such as BBC, United Nations, CNN, and the Jerusalem Post. A nearly similar convo took place here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:James_G._Lindsay#notability notability, talk. I don't see your or Nableezy's name there. If you want to drag this out even more please do. I just love roadblocks that disrupt collaboration, especially ones that are supported by administrators.

Basically same complaint but longer. Clearly you have under-stated the importance of the UNRWA and how it provides notability. Here is a closely-related person, Peter Hansen (UN). Does that lack notability? Aside from his involvement with the UNRWA, everything else is irrelevant...:D Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Most of that is repetition of irrelevance and point-missing which I'll ignore, having more than adequately addressed it before. I'll respond to your comparison with Peter Hansen (UN) by pointing out that Hansen was Commissioner-General, which is considered a diplomatic post, while Lindsay was merely general counsel. Rd232 22:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Apologies, I missed another point you buried in there, which seems to be Report Is Notable So He Should Have A Bio. But see WP:BLP1E. Rd232 23:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Nice dismissal. Of course, "merely general counsel." You've also had a pre-determined response, so I will no longer spend (waste) my time to generalized criticisms. I proved why the article is notable and why the claim regarding academics was totally over-stated and completely irrelevant to AFD. I've discovered a couple spelling errors. Shall we delete the article? Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

OK, nice. Helpful. Rd232 23:40, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

• Update Nableezy has accused me of canvassing in regards to this AFD. I didn't. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:16, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

  I can see why. But your subsequent explanation to him sounds reasonable (Misplaced Pages:Canvassing). Rd232 23:40, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Seeing as how unaware you have portrayed yourself in relation to this AFD and the articles in general, it's not surprising. Notifying all major editors involved in the article is not canvassing. Picking and choosing Palestinian/Israeli editors exclusively is. Ceed wouldn't be here if not for my notice. Whatever, this AFD has acted as a badge of shame for far too long. Nableezy is no longer involved and should feel lucky he will likely face no consequences for his persistent disruption and hounding. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:53, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Posting on a number of talk pages looks like canvassing (WP:DUCK). Your explanation is reasonable that it wasn't (per distinction with friendly messages in WP:CANVAS). Good grief, you can't even let it go when I agree with you! And is there any chance that you might delete your Nableezy-related comments from this AFD as an irrelevant distraction? Rd232 00:04, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Mis-read your response. This entire AFD is a joke, so no. Since you are an admin I'm sure there is some rule you could whip out that would force mt to remove the comments. :D Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:08, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

LOL. There is actually (well, to justify me doing it for you, anyway): WP:IAR. Rd232 00:29, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

When Nab strikes his malicious/false/irrelevant posts, I'll respond in kind. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

BTW, since you seem so concerned about notability...I suggest you check out 2009 Israel Defense Forces T-shirt affair. You've been involved in the talk from what I understand. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:18, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

"Involved"? I made one comment (someone asked me too, I forget who or why), saying it was a violation of WP:NOT#NEWS, i.e. should really be deleted/merged. What's your point exactly? Rd232 00:29, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Proportionally speaking, your concern is suspect. It's pretty obvious Lindsay is not a strong candidate for deletion, yet you've taken a fairly hardline in making it happen. But in the IDF article you showed little intention or willingness to get involved in the AFD. Trying to connect the dots here...Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:44, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Read my comment there, it should be clear. WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. And if you want to nominate that other article, I'll probably support delete/merge. Rd232 01:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm familiar with that. Wikifan12345 (talk) 02:32, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

To end this, you've made a strong effort to over-state minor issues (academic question) while dismissing major ones (He was "merely" general counsel of the UNRWA") which don't seem like compelling arguments for delete. Anyways. Wikifan12345 (talk) 02:39, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm trying to address the issue at hand, which is whether the subject is notable enough to have a separate bio (WP:N). I can't help it that you've already made up your mind and that my failing to agree with you upsets you. Rd232 03:50, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Comment It may not be against the rules but I think it's really inappropriate to couch in secondary responses/claims above an editors response. It makes it very difficult for me to keep up and is poor editing manners from my POV. Here is a response I missed because of that: Apologies, I missed another point you buried in there, which seems to be Report Is Notable So He Should Have A Bio. But see BLP1E. I think we've become highly dependent on rules to provide rationale while avoiding actual argument which ironically meet the standards of Misplaced Pages:Don't overuse shortcuts to policy and guidelines to win your argument. In response to your point, it is your interpretation that Lindsay's notability solely rest on a "report." This is extremely unfair categorization. Lindsay isn't this person. Lindsay has been covered by BBC, CNN, UN, JP, etc. He has had a long career in the US government and UN programs aside from the UNRWA. Please, my rationale extends for paragraphs while you simply continue with refuted guidelines. Methinks this AFD is ideology driven rather than concern for the article. What's next? Wikifan12345 (talk) 03:06, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

How about not making claims as to others motives and actually respond to the issues. All the coverage is on one thing, or one event, the report on the UNRWA. Can you show how being general counsel for the UNRWA meets notability guidelines? How about not clogging up this discussion with pointless nonsense? That would be a good idea for what's next. Nableezy (talk) 03:32, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Much of the substantial discussion relates to whether he's a notable academic or not. Conclusion: no. Now if you want to elaborate something based on general notability (WP:N) then you need to show substantial secondary media coverage of him (not of the report). Rd232 03:50, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Comment Again, another couched comment. Almost missed it Rd. This "substantial discussion" was initiated by you. The academic argument is valid in its own right, but it is not a major concern in terms of the AFD. You over-stated its importance, which I exposed several times. While this AFD is loaded with fallacies, yours is most obvious. Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:08, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. If there are other bios that don't pass notability, then AFD them. We do not have bios on people of one persuasion because there are bios on people of another; WP:NPOV doesn't work that way and WP:N doesn't either. Views should be represented in the articles for which they are relevant (which for Lindsay's views is already the case). Rd232 15:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

The view should be represented, which is why I said the information about the report should be placed in its appropriate article (the UNRWA article). But does having a minority viewpoint make someone notable for an article about that person? I am not going to respond to beliefs as to my motives except to say you, nor anybody else besides me, knows why I do what I do. If you have a complaint about me take it up in the appropriate venue. Nableezy (talk) 04:16, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Comment Who says this is a minority view? It certainly is within the UNRWA, if that is what you are saying. Notability has been proven and this "minority viewpoint" is yet another detraction from thorough rationales. If I have a complaint about you, I'll put it right in front of your nose. Someone else can do the tattle-telling. Count your blessings, man. Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Question Rationale behind Misplaced Pages:Coatrack accusation? I've spent (wasted) a lot of time responding to every law/guideline users have listed in support of deleting the article, so I say we change sides. I think another defining *gasp* law-violating quality should be substantiated beyond editor "high-fives." Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:59, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

How has notability been proven? You just saying it does not make it so. "Minority viewpoint" were tundra's words arguing about "shutting out minority views". Nableezy (talk) 05:53, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Notability has been proven. See here for discussion. I agree with the minority VP but I don't endorse your rationale of it. Wikifan12345 (talk) 06:08, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I really dont know if you are being purposefully dense or not, but how has notability been proven? You have said he is a notable academic, fails (not even an academic, and even if he were still fails WP:ACADEMIC), you have said he has been covered in lots of places (fails per WP:BLP1E). But just linking to this entire page to show 'proof' of notability where none exists is kind of meaningless. Nableezy (talk) 06:18, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Lol, I never said he was a notable academic. I said the idea that him being a notable/non-notable academic isn't pertinent to the AFD, and is a classic Red herring. The BLP1E was discussed thoroughly. You were absent in that discussion, but feel free to add a comment if desired. Your insulting generalizations and dead-end dogmatic approach is extremely frustrating. You ignore valid points, demand more details, ignore those points, then simply turn on recycle mode and start again. Wikifan12345 (talk) 06:29, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

You are right on one thing, it was tundra who said he was a notable academic. You have not showed coverage of him is of more than one event (and I actually made a comment there as well) so it being thoroughly discussed and you actually proving something are 2 different things. I'm done here though, you want be able to use seeing my username as an excuse to continue your disruption. Nableezy (talk) 06:40, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

One thing's for sure: He isn't notable according to your objective, neutral standards (I.e, not characterized by thinly-vieled anti-Israeli and propagandic tirades) see Juan Cole for more. Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

section break

The article James G. Lindsay is proposed for deletion on the grounds that subject fails to meet the notability guidelines for inclusion. Arguments for notability have been:

• He's a notable academic. Rejected as he is merely a visiting fellow at a thinktank, and has no academic publications
• He's notable for his legal position at UNRWA. Rejected - position is not in itself that notable; it is merely an administrative position.
• He's notable for a report he did. Rejected on grounds of WP:BLP1E.
• He's notable for his views; other bios exist on people of similar importance but other views. Rejected - WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS.
• He's notable for the general coverage he has received independent of the one report: insufficient evidence presented (only one link to a regional weekly paper). Actually that link relates to the report too.

OK, so only the last of these seems to have potential. Those who want to keep the article should present evidence of substantial coverage in secondary reliable sources. This coverage will need to be independent of his report. Failing such evidence, the article fails notability and should be deleted. Rd232 15:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Comment on motivations for deletion The article James G. Lindsay was proposed for deletion as a result of a personal feud between User:Nableezy and I. Yes, we all know this doesn't exclude it from the AFD but user Rd has continually dismissed this happening as irrelevant. It is not. It is in extreme bad-faith to move a clearly unsettling and almost vicious dispute to AFDing an article created by a fueding editor. I know my language may seem hostile but it is nothing short of true. Lengthy arguments can be found, here.. See User:Nableezy participation in talk here. Nableezy has continually initiate edit-warring "to the line" and then reported and/or warned others for responding. I've been blocked 2 or 3 times for confrontations with Nableezy. Disruption. The timing cannot be ignored, almost immediately after our dispute occurred and no resolution was clear (and no user was being punished), Nableezy sent this article for deletion. It is truly disturbing how the admin involved has yet to even recognized this, perhaps because he endorses deletion. That is fine.

Rationale for Keep

Rd's crunched and simplified keypoints resemble that of a strawman. I'll do my best to avoid such fallacy here, but we've been doing this for over 4 pages so bear with me:

• "*He's a notable academic. Rejected as he is merely a visiting fellow at a thinktank, and has no academic publications."

This was Rd's argument. It was initiated by a lengthy paragraph authored by user tundra. I don't feel like rummaging through the history so I'll paste and copy his exact wording: "Keep and Expand. Lindsay is appropriately categorized among American academics, American foreign policy writers, American legal writers, Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Writers on the Middle East, & University of Missouri-Columbia alumni, and probably more. Many academics are single-issue people, and Lindsay's knowledge and opinions on his issue is unique, since he has been a participant; not an outsider. There is no question regarding notability. The way to improve this article is by expansion, not deletion.."

Rd latched on to that single word and based his entire argument off of it. I repeatedly made the claim that it is entirely irrelevant to the AFD and is hardly a valid reason for deletion. His argument meets the profile of a typical red herring . Review full discussion for more info, I prefer not to engage in repetition-for-argument as it is unfair and downright malicious if continued intentionally. I endorse Tundra's rationale.

• "*He's notable for his legal position at UNRWA. Rejected - position is not in itself that notable; it is merely an administrative position."

Again, extreme generalization. I made the comparison to Peter Hansen (UN), who is only notable for his high position at the UN. You rationalized that because his position was higher, it was superior and qualified as notable. You dismissed Lindsay's employment as "merely legal counsel." Correction: Lindsay was the administrator of all legal affairs within the organization. His duties included negotiating personally with the states of Israel, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and the Palestinian Authority. (copy and paste from the article, sorry this is getting boring since I already said). Far from "merely an administrative position." He was formerly "seconded" to the Multinational Force and Observers and was also part of its legal department. And he has a career in the federal government blah blah..who cares.

I know the comparison to Peter Hansen relates to OTHERCRAPEXISTS, but both articles are so closely related I think it was an appropriate comparison. Bolded according to importance.

• "*He's notable for a report he did. Rejected on grounds of WP:BLP1E. "

again, unsettling generalizations. He's not simply notable for a report he did. He's notable for several reasons, but one includes a sharp critique of the UNRWA dealings with the Palestinians and other countries involved (namely Jordan), as well other stuff that is not more related to the UN (I read the report awhile ago).

Here was Tundra's rationale which I agree with: "Keep and Expand. Lindsay is appropriately categorized among American academics, American foreign policy writers, American legal writers, Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Writers on the Middle East, & University of Missouri-Columbia alumni, and probably more. Many academics are single-issue people, and Lindsay's knowledge and opinions on his issue is unique, since he has been a participant; not an outsider. There is no question regarding notability. The way to improve this article is by expansion, not deletion."

Your exact response: "He doesn't seem to pass WP:ACADEMIC, not least because he isn't one (the Institute is just a thinktank). And categorisation is irrelevant to notability; what evidence is there that he passes WP:BIO? Rd232 talk 03:50, 19 April 2009 (UTC)"

It seems the discussion has a habit of lengthy, thorough posts responded with short, generalized arguments. I.e, he is notable for x, x, x, and x. Respond: No, he isn't notable for x.

The discussion has bordered wikilawyering which like everything else that has occurred lately, is extremely disturbing in the midst of an administrator.

• "*He's notable for his views; other bios exist on people of similar importance but other views. Rejected - WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. "

Similar rationale provided above.

• "*He's notable for the general coverage he has received independent of the one report:"

General coverage? Again, suspicious generalization. Coverage generated a response from the United Nations. It was covered by several newspaper, one of which is the Jerusalem Post.

It is in my opinion this discussion has relied too much on guidelines and several users failed to address the article outside of the courtroom. The fact that none of these complaints were forwarded to talk, many of which could have been solved there, is notable. The original rationale was short and sweet, but after continuing responses Rd just listed more and more rules until it would overwhelm users like myself. Something is definitely wrong here, though I'm sure some of you disagree.

I hope I've been specific enough. "You didn't proof notability!" Yeah, I did. Read the discussion. Maybe you disagree because the article is kind of forkish in that it is basically slap to the UNRWA (and by extension the Palestinian "cause" in general.) Dogma and ideology as a motivation for deletion cannot be ignored.

Oh, I almost forgot. Argument for merge has been addressed. Pertinent info is in the Palestinian refugee and UNRWA article.

I would hope sincere, truly concerned editors would rely on talk and dispute resolution before pushing for a delete. Cheers! Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:27, 20 April 2009 (UTC)