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Hello, PMK1, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! BalkanFever 09:39, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Limba armãneascã

Shouldn't this map be at Aromanian language rather than Aromanians? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 04:39, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Macedonian language naming dispute

An article you may be interested in, Macedonian language naming dispute, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Macedonian language naming dispute. Thank you. Alex Makedon (talk) 00:27, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Prevod

Toj "vlaski" tekst e vsusnost rumunski jazik, ne vlaski. Upotrebi google. Pozdrav. BalkanFever 02:12, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:MKD

Nice work with the templates, but look at the actual page now. Would you mind expanding recent articles in the same way for balance? :) Cheers, BalkanFever 00:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Bulgarian sources

Hey there and thanks for the question. Indeed, Kanchov doesn't list Katafygi; according to his map, it isn't in the region of Macedonia but in Thessaly. The Bulgarian Misplaced Pages lists it as part of the municipality of Velventos (Велвендо) in Kozani Prefecture. Kanchov's data on the kaza of Kozani (Кожани) is pretty explicit: if you're looking for Bulgarians or future ethnic Macedonians there, you're looking in the wrong place. The population in 1900 was 14,531 Turks, 8,773 Orthodox Greeks, 1,140 Greek Muslims, 300 Vlachs and 200 Roma, no Bulgarians at all. Velventos, the nearby small town, falls in the Greek ethnic area according to Kanchov, as do the lands to the southeast according to his study (p. 77); Velventos itself had a population of 3,500 Greeks and 300 Turks. (p. 287)

That said, I'd call it highly unlikely that there would be any Bulgarians to the southeast either, towards Mount Olympus; and if there were any Turks, they would have been transferred to Turkey in 1923. To confirm that, I also looked at some older maps and the area around Kozani is coloured as Greek or Greek-Turkish. So in short, if you were hoping Zorba the Greek, whose prototype was born in Katafygi, was actually Zorba the Grecoman, I'd have to disappoint you :)

If you're looking for something more specific, I can inquire about any data in Ethnography of the Vilayets of Adrianople, Bitola and Thessaloniki from 1878, but I can't say for sure whether the village is included there. Todor→Bozhinov 21:29, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Macedonians in Britain

An article that you have been involved in editing, Macedonians in Britain, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Croatian British. Thank you. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Please note that I've reverted your recent edits to the article because you failed to provide any references. Please take a look at WP:BURDEN. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:00, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, adding content without citing a reliable source, as you did to Macedonians in Britain, is not consistent with our policy of verifiability. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. If you are familiar with Misplaced Pages:Citing sources, please take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:14, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

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Hypocrisy

Hypocrisy, anyone? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 12:29, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Really? Apparently not. Unlike our friend Jagnula. What is funny though, many "not-extremely-notable" people are able to remain on the Bitola list, but when it comes to Greek cities there is a diferent set of terms. Face it you are the hipocrite. PMK1 (talk) 00:05, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Try Greek or Cyrillic script, and learn to spell already. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 03:01, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Happy? She is back on the list, and i dont plan on reverting her. She only has 144 hits in Greek (if i have learnt how to spell). So your friend Fanoula is on the list, it would be hipocritic of you to not let your other friend Jagnula on their, wouldn't it be? PMK1 (talk) 03:09, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

She has even more hits in Latin and Cyrillic, so I haven't the faintest idea what you're doing wrong. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 03:15, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

It must have been my search engine. What is your point though? They are as notable as each other, great. But you still wont allow Jagnula to appear on the Kastoria page, nor Georgi on the Edessa page. So your experiment has proven to me that she may be notable, but as for the ethnic Macedonians well they will never be. And then you go on about NPOV. PMK1 (talk) 03:21, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

She also has 420 hits on Google Books, compared to your Jagnula's 9. Are you deliberately tampering with the search? In the edit window, I see the o's in her name appear as Unicode code points in the URLs you posted (Fan%CE%BFula+Papazogl%CE%BFu). As it turns out, %CE%BF is the Unicode code point for the Greek letter omicron. I can't imagine that you have purposely altered the o's in Fanoula Papazoglou to Greek, in order to "achieve" no hits; after all, no one would ever notice, would they? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 03:29, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Funny but no. I merely just copied her name from this page which you brought up 2 comments ago. Try copying that, then try writing out F-a-n-o-u-l-a P-a-p-a-z-o-g-l-o-u. Try copying it, you achieve nothing, but if you spell it out many hits appaear. Not rocket science after all, you can also blame this user for the omnicrons. PMK1 (talk) 03:50, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

You could have typed it out or tried the latest version before jumping to conclusions. But that wouldn't have suited the WP:POINT you were trying to prove, would it? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 04:04, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

It was an honest mistake. But i cannot imagine that actions like this and this were accidents or mistakes. Has their notability been proven or will you revert again? PMK1 (talk) 04:09, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

What pathetic, distorting slimeballs communism produced... Shame on you PMK. 87.203.94.192 (talk) 20:13, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Re:

Don't attempt to bleach a proposal under discussion all over, falsely claiming there is a consensus. That was what i meant, but now in general, referring also to what "i like and i don't like" and other unnecessary comments: limit yourself, hold your horses, stop the preaching etc. Cheers.--Zakronian (talk) 09:53, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to add "please".--Zakronian (talk) 10:02, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Why?

Why are you still piping to Macedonian Slavic, instead of using a simple redirect? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 14:03, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Macedonians in Britain

Hi. Have you had any luck finding references for Macedonians in Britain, as you suggested you were trying to do here and here? The information will be removed per Misplaced Pages:Verifiability if no references can be found. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:52, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Regarding this edit, does the reference support all of the points in that paragraph? If it does, I'll format it to make that clear. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:49, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. Merry Christmas to you too. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:57, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Macedonian Slavic

Can you please read Talk:Florina#Why "Macedonian Slavic" is unacceptable before going on with those "consensus" rants. Your "consensus" is null and void because you somehow forgot to invite the other side to discuss it. The thing is, the decision you guys took is so unacceptable I tagged your first edits as vandalism, unaware someone was insane enough to agree on that. Todor→Bozhinov 12:58, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not interested in half-and-half solutions. The codified Macedonian language is not spoken in West Macedonia, I'd ask you to stop making it sound as if "I know" that. I'm really looking for an universal compromise solution and I honestly don't know what's wrong with "local Slavic" or "South Slavic": Slavic dialects of Greece is the main article on those dialects, not Macedonian language. A name is supposed to be acceptable by all sides, not just by one. And that doesn't involve a "we give you that, you give us that" solution because you have nothing to do with Western Thrace anyway.

I'm trying to come up with a good compromise here; instead I'm being flooded by personal attacks and I'm being asked to discuss more when I'm the one person who's discussing this most.

If you really feel like discussing this and if you have any ideas about a compromise, do contact me. But know that nothing that has "Macedonian" or "Bulgarian" in the name will be acceptable, unless both are there. Simple as that. Todor→Bozhinov 14:34, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Now that I've read your message again, I'd like to make it clear: I wouldn't mind having South Slavic names in Western Thrace and eastern Macedonia, where the local language is closer to the Bulgarian norm than to the Macedonian norm; in fact, I'd appreciate it if you add South Slavic names there. I'm not targeting western Greek Macedonia specifically, I'm really looking for an universal solution to this problem.

We might know the Pomaks in Greece speak Bulgarian, I might know the Slavophones in western Macedonia speak Bulgarian and you might know the same speak Macedonian, but it's not how it is. That's not acceptable for Greece and not for any of us. That's why I'm looking for another solution that either involves both languages or none of them in the name. Todor→Bozhinov 14:39, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Man, please, please don't take me for dumb. Aren't you tired of using the same old arguments when I've told you the local language is *NOT* clearly Macedonian, I'm adding Bulgarian names because they are relevant beyond the local language dispute. "Macedonian Slavic" to us is nothing more than "Macedonian" in a form that attempts to be non-offensive to the Greeks. I don't see what Blagoevgrad, Petrich and Sandanski have to do with your language, the Bulgarian language of the locals there has never been known as anything else.

I have no idea why Ano Vrontou should be Bulgarian and Meliti should be Macedonian Slavic, honestly. Both local populations were regarded as Bulgarians, both were mostly Bulgarian Exarchist, the Meliti guys participated in Ohrana and Ano Vrontou gave birth to several prominent IMRO members, including Dimo Hadzhidimov. Historically, none of those villages was less Bulgarian than the other, you can't make one "Macedonian" and one Bulgarian because they're on either side of the yat border.

P.S. I don't think you're irredentist, I was provoking you. I honestly think/thought you're pretty reasonable for a RoM guy, but you're being a bit too stubborn on this dispute, and I believe you're wrong here. Todor→Bozhinov 12:43, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

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Drosopigi present

Your update to the Drosopigi article on 5 January 2009 was a little misleading, and it appears that you may never have been to the village before. Accurately accounting for the history of language and self-identity is a long standing open issue in the article, and moving this forward in an accurate manner requires more care.

I understand you were trying to represent the cited research, and if it's simply the facts you're after, then I'm sure you'll be interested in making it right. The village has always been mixed Arvanite and Aromanian, as you put it, so when you start off with "By 1993..." it opens up a bunch of questions about the past. Again, I understand you were just citing the research, but the article needs to make sense as a whole when it's read by everyone, including those who know something about the village. By trying to be so specific, you also gloss over the complexities that existed. When the original villagers came from Plikati, most were multi-lingual, but with varying degrees of proficiency in each language they spoke. Many were comfortable only with Arvanitika, a small number only with Vlahika, some with both Greek and Arvanitika, and some with all 3. Research on how this evolved is difficult to come by. The men tended to know Greek better than the women. One theory on the "mixing" claims that the knowledge of Arvanitika or Vlahika depended on how various families had combined by marriage over time. Hopefully you see now that implying that today the village is still divided betweeen Arvanites and Aromanians is completely confusing, and would be understood by anyone who lives there or visits Drosopigi.

Regarding the research itself, it was quite interesting and I'm glad you've found it. Back in 1993, however, it was difficult to find anyone under 60 that spoke Aravanitika or Vlahika, and today I'm quite sure that the under 60 year ols speakers could be counted on one hand. The people under 60 either never learned the languages, or have forgotten them due to lack of use. My uncle, who would have qualified as one of these under 60 folks back in 1993, is a good example of this. The elderly residents that remain are often tri-lingual, meaning that they speak Greek to younger generations, and then have their favorite language (Arvanitika or Vlahika) that they speak with other friends or family members of the older generation. For Drosopigi, the cited reference probably represents the data from 20 or 30 years prior to 1993. I'd also like to clarify that facts stated in this reference are about language, not ethnicity, and I think that your update could focus on that.

I've tried to simplify your update to account for these realities, and to avoid the lengthy back and forth about self-identify that will be opened up by the way it's written now. I would ask that we discuss this offline if you have an issue with my changes. drosopigi (talk) 23:00, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

The New Albanian Language Map

I like the new map a lot, but it needs to include the transitional dialect zone. Here is a link with a map based from Gjinari at the bottom:

http://www.metahome.at/test/pdfs/d7.pdf Azalea pomp (talk) 10:06, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I added the addition to the map. Azalea pomp (talk) 09:05, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

"how is the bulgarian language used in the smrdes village? tell me by whom?"

You've proven to be inadequately prepared to defend your point. According to the very one source you're using to claim Macedonian is spoken here and there in Greek Macedonia, Krystallopiyi in Florina Prefecture is listed as a purely Vlach (Aromanian) village today (table 3). The old Smardesh had been abandoned by the Bulgarian locals, beginning after WWI and culminating after the Greek Civil War post-WWII. In 1951, the village was declared entirely uninhabited, and the Greeks later settled transhumant Vlachs from Thesprotia there.

This input makes me take "good luck finding a local which uses the word "smardesh"" with a sinister twist of irony :) Bulgarian might not be spoken there anymore, but what's more satisfying, "Macedonian" was probably never spoken. Best of luck reverting me in the future without having any reason to do so. Your bluffing has failed you. Todor→Bozhinov 16:53, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Funny Macedonian has been spoken there for a very long time, it was only codified in 1944. That does not mean that it wasnt around before the 1940s. Go to neighbouring villages where the Macedonian language is in full use. Smardes is a pseudo-Bulgarian word which is not used by the locals. Similar to Bitolya, nobody says Bitolya unless they are from Bulgaria. The point is that Smardesh or even Sm'rdes does not even exist in that dialect, the ъ is not a feature of the lower prespa dialect. PMK1 (talk) 23:40, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I would like to add - there is vowel "Ъ" in the dialect of Kostur. Please, see here (четвъ̀рток, цъ̀рно (чъ̀рно)). Blagoy Shklifov maintains that in the biggest part of the villages of the region of Kostur and in some (two) villages in Lower Prespa region (Orovnik, P'pli) the old vowel "ѫ" under stress is transfered into "ъ". (Шклифов, Благой и Екатерина Шклифова. Български диалектни текстове от Егейска Македония, София 2003, с. 19 (Shklifov, Blagoy and Ekaterina Shklifova. Bulgarian dialect texts from Aegean Macedonia Sofia 2003, p. 19). I'll remind of some local words with ъ: вър (peak), шчърк (stork), асимлък (hostility), твърт (hard)... In other his work, "Dictionary of the Kostur dialect" (Българска диалектология. Проучвания и материали, София 1977, книга VІІІ, с. ) Shklifov pointed even words (from Sm'rdesh) as ършлан ('rshlan) (from turkish "arslan" (lion)... An other example of the local toponym with Ъ is D'mbeni (Dendrohori). You can see - even in MK Misplaced Pages is Д’мбени.--Males (talk) 04:39, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes i know that. But look at where krystalopigi is located. It is in a unique section, located between the Korca and Lower Prespa dialects. It is only until you cross the mountains to the south of the village that the kostur dialect is really spoken. D'mbeni is on the other side of the mountains as one might say. Because the old system of dialectology relied on mountains to keep seperate populations, and to keep seperate their own dialect. Although similar to the kostur dialect, the village of smrdes was always surounded by hills/mountains, the only low spot is towards albania. This allowed the penetration of the korca dialect into the village. PMK1 (talk) 06:54, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, we can look on the other side - at V'mbel (Bъмбел) and to continue to interest about the dialect on the other side of the Greek-Albanian border - Vr'bnik (Vrnik). In this village the frequency of "ъ" is very high, too.--Males (talk) 07:12, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

That would depend on who you talk to. Vambel or V'mbel? Vrnik or V'rbnik or Vernik? Just one of the many interesting features of this Macedonian dialect. PMK1 (talk) 07:19, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Unlike to main clasification of this dialect, I never found serious dialectological work, where the presence of "Ъ" is denied - from one of the first field researcers of South-Western Bulgarian dialects - Andre Mazon to Evdokia Hristova (Българска реч от Албания. Говорът на село Връбник, Благоевград 2003). As I remember, the prominent scientist from RoM B. Vidoeski (Диjалектите на македонскиот jазик, т. 1 etc.) don't denies this feature, too.--Males (talk) 07:33, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Very logical question: if Macedonian was codified in 1944, how could it have been around before the 1940s? Did the people not call their language Bulgarian and did they not write using the Bulgarian orthography of the time? You're contradicting yourself in a single sentence, PMK1. Before a language comes into existence, it does not exist. There was no Macedonian before there was Macedonian. Sounds retardedly simple, doesn't it?

Also, I couldn't care less about the presence of a vocalic /r/ or a mid back unrounded vowel in local dialects. Vocalic /r/ is not unique to the Bulgarian dialects of Macedonia, it is also present in the regions of modern central western Bulgaria (Tran, Breznik, Belogradchik), that doesn't mean the literary Bulgarian name should reflect that vocalic /r/. Local pronunciation is not necessarily the literary pronunciation: locals might say /ˈbitolɐ/ and that won't change the fact that the original literary form is /ˈbitolʲɐ/, from Old Bulgarian Обитѣль (note the palatalization of the /l/). In my native Pleven, some might pronounce the name of the city as /plɛ:n/, but that has no influence on the literary pronunciation. Don't confuse concepts. Todor→Bozhinov 18:11, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I guess you're missing their point, which is that the "Macedonian" language somehow managed to exist as a distinct entity between the arrival of the Slavs (or the ancient Macedonians, for those who reject even its classification as a Slavic language) in the Balkans and its codification in 1944. Weird, I know, but that's what they believe. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 18:26, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

You people are dumber than I thought. Codification ≠ creation. BalkanFever 03:17, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I was right, then. So which is it, if not 1944? Sixth century AD? First millennium BC? I'm curious to know. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 17:09, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the Macedonian language." I figure he's talking about this creation :) Todor→Bozhinov 17:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Mocking the bible. Way to go. By the way, have any of you guys heard of "the female species"? They don't date themselves you know? Köbra | Könverse 06:07, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

By whom

Here (p. 247) is one of the possible answers of the question "how is the bulgarian language used in the smrdes village?". It is a diary of the most famous Bulgarian from the village - Vasil Chekalarov. He asserts (15.07.1903) that the language of his detachment is Bulgarian.--Males (talk) 02:25, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Macedonian prayer

Do you know anything about this video that supposedly appeared on the official TV channel of the country? See . Sorry about the title provided on You Tube. Thanks Politis (talk) 16:51, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

It is definately Propaganda from the "fascist FYROMIAN" government. What a sad joke these low lifes are playing. This is a actually a very good prayer :). PMK1 (talk) 12:20, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, great prayer. I've learnt it by heart. I hope there will be a follow up, something like 'Son of fascist Fyromian prayer' ;-). Thank God (not the Macedonoid, the other One, with a long white beard and plastic sandals) we can get some laughs out of this never ending situation. Politis (talk) 16:31, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

We can get a laugh, but this sad state of affairs comes down to one country only. They should be ashamed of themselves. They recently tried to get Croatia to change the name of these people, apparently "Macedonians" dont exist there. PMK1 (talk) 07:59, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Of course, we don't exist anywhere. We're not even here right now... o_O BalkanFever 10:13, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

There was only one report on Croatia from a Dalmatian newspaper, and it has not been cofirmed either by Zagreb or by Athens. And even if it is, we need to have access to the full story. So it is always best to wait for confirmation rather than jump to unconfirmed news stories as ammunition. Remember that Athens has consistently supported Croatia - and every single Balkan country - to join NATO and the EU; when Greece took over the Presidency of the EU in 2003, it initiated the Thessaloniki Stability Pact that committed the EU into accepting all Balkan states . The Greek presidency also eliminated all the obstacle for the Treaty of Accession 2003 that allowed the enlargement of the EU. Politis (talk) 14:02, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, they have in fact helped. But if what was published is true, it is more embarrasing than anything else (no offence). Politis about the prayer, it isnt taught in schools or anything like that. PMK1 (talk) 19:07, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Civility in edit summaries.

PMK1 - I urgently suggest you reign in your language and accusations in edit summaries. Civility is required not only in text but edit summaries - Peripitus (Talk)

Nashinski

I have seen your last edit in the article Gorani (ethnic group). I am wondering about the whole list of settlements - from where we know that these forms of the names of the settlements are in Našinski? I mean this form of the alphabet.--Males (talk) 17:51, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Males. They use either the Serbian Cyrillic Script of the Macedonian Cyrillic One. In Albania they use one or the other or just write in the Albanian script. In recent times Macedonian langauge textbooks have been issued to the Gorani in Kosovo, and Macedonian Muslim activists can be found in Albania and Kosovo. IN urvic and Jelovjane they use the Macedonian script. Given the similarity between Macedonian and Serbian Cyrillic there are only a few letters Ѓ/Ђ and Ќ/Ћ which are different. PMK1 (talk) 09:27, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

That was my point. This dialect isn't standardized language. Goranians use two forms of Latin alphabet (Albanian and that introduced by Ljudevit Gaj, i.e. Bosnian) and two (close) forms of Cirilic alphabet (Serbian and Macedonian). I am not sure that this list is very correct since it represent only one possibility, but I would not argue about it.--Males (talk) 14:40, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes but also in Albania they use Cyrillic. Anyway in Kosovo and ROM the Latin name is also mentioned, it is the official name. PMK1 (talk) 08:26, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

You got jokes, son :D

Personal attacks warning

Jokes and all aside, but this is well beyond the line, as is your generally confrontational tone and attitude. Something tells me Todor is pretty pissed off right now, and he has every right to be. If you want to be taken seriously as a good-faith contributor, you might consider an apology. Otherwise, you can imagine where this is heading, right? Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:10, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Labuništa

I understand that it may well be a Macedonian-speaking Muslim village, it's not uncommon for such populations to identify as something else, but you know Misplaced Pages works with sources, so really try to find at least something :) I'm against labeling their self-identification in the official census data with "Macedonian Muslims" though, we have to respect self-identification even when it doesn't correspond to actual origin. Todor→Bozhinov 08:40, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Whatever they write they identify as Torbeši. Its a bit hard to be albanian/turk when you can only speak mak ;). I will look for an adequte source. Oh, and i know you can handle it. ;). PMK1 (talk) 09:24, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Verifiability

Hi. Edits such as this violate WP:Verifiability. Please do not add unverified material to Misplaced Pages. If you think you have sources that support the material, then please add it only as and when you can reference those sources. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:41, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Please do not add unsourced or original content, as you did to Macedonian Australian. Doing so violates Misplaced Pages's verifiability policy. If you continue to do so, you will be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:21, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia

You have been engaging in edit warring at Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia recently. As a word of advice, when you notice that you are carrying on a conversation in edit summaries like this, that means things have gone too far. You shouldn't be able to revert each other enough to hold a discussion like that, and, more importantly, it just encourages the other person to revert you back, especially when you use taunting edit summaries like "you have got to be joking." Please keep your discussions to the talk page instead, and try to resolve the conflict the first, without this confrontational warring. If you have an edit conflict, WP:DR may be helpful. Please take a look at the essay on edit warring for more insight. Additionally, you should be aware that a prior arbitration case pertains to this subject matter, and administrators have the power to block editors who disrupt Macedonia-related articles. Dominic·t 12:09, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

The linguistic features-list at Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia will be better to go into Slavic dialects of Greece? Since these two articles are still separate, one of them should deal with the historical and political issues, and the other with the linguistic description, don't you think? Jingby (talk) 08:04, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Not a problem. PMK1 (talk) 21:16, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I only speak a Macedonian dialect of the Greek language. I don't know if you are interested to this. From the slavic dialects of Macedonia, I only know some words and phrases. However, I don't think I can help you with your editing in slavic dilects of Macedonia, because I don't think you are objective, enough. First of all, I don't know if these dialects can be classified in branches of the official language of Skopje, or branches of the Bulgarian language, or branches of Serbian language, or maybe branches of old Slavonic language. Secondary, I don't think that the speakers of these dialects can be considered as Greeks or Bulgarians or ethnic "Macedonians", or maybe Serbs. The references your editings do, relatively with the national identities of the speakers are arbitary. There is no need for you to pass from the back door, your beliefs about national identities, in a liguistic article, which I don't approve in general. Chrusts 10:11, 18 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes (talk • contribs)

Because I know many speakers of slavic dialects of various villages. They ensure me that the official language of Skopje is quite different. Additionally, there are huge differences from villaga to village. So, I think you claim about speaking the same language in neighbouring towns is not correct. Maybe Gevgele and Kilkis spoke the same dialect before 100 years. Now the people of Gevgele speak the official language, which is different.Chrusts 10:28, 18 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes (talk • contribs)

Macedonian Australians, again

Hi. I notice that despite your comments at Talk:Macedonian Australian, you have not added any sources to the article in almost a month. Do you still intend to do so? Cordless Larry (talk) 18:29, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

This is another reminder. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:42, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Edessa organisation

This is it roughly, I think it is setting itself up to promote the Makedonce culture of Greek Macedonia, but will probably be directly linked with cultural and political activities in the Republic of Macedonia. I doubt it will be promoting the regional Slavic Macedonian dialect of Edessa, which is a pitty since it is diseappearing. There might be interesting reaction to it in Greece, or simply ignored. Anyway, good luck to them. Politis (talk) 17:15, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Constitution of the cultural non governmental organisation titled ‘Educational and cultural movement of Edessa'

Today in Edessa, 11 february 2009 the people named bellow

1. Kazias Petros – inhabitant of Florina 2. ETC, ETC names and place

Agreed to establish an NGO titled… the following have been agreed

Article 1 …under article 741 of the Civil Code, the organisation will be able to use its name in the Latin alphabet or in translation.

Araticle 2 Address will be in Edessa but can open offices in other parts of Greece

Article 3

Mission Mission is to facilitate cultural communication of the Nomos with other regions at regional, national or Balkan level. [Basically it expresses the desire for 'specialised cultural days', ever closer union of the Balkan peoples, promote common cultural heritage, concerts, educational, sports, etc activities

Produce CD/DVD, book presentations, electronic publishing

Article 4 The organisation limits itself to the 28/02/2011. If the company continues its activities after that date it will be assumed that it has been extended for an indefinite period.

Thank you for that. At least here we have an official document of its establishment, should any one choose to challenge the legitimacy/existence of the movement. As for the language, the locals will be taught the literary language, but the Voden dialect will still be spoken, if not spoken even more. Across the border in ROM, most people know the literary language but dialects are still widespread and used by the majority of people. The literary language is only used in formal situations. Hopefully they will suceed in promoting the unique Aegean Macedonia culture and dialects. :-) Thanks again. PMK1 (talk) 23:23, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I dont think it has been established yet. Associations that have premises and raise funds in the EU need to be ackowledged officially and registered by the state. I dont think that has happened yet. The docu shows that they may be applying. Regarding official language, what do younger people speak in Skopje or Veles, dialects or official? Politis (talk) 14:53, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Sekoj si vrti na svojeto, which means everbody goes by their own. This is definately true for the Macedonian language. Dialects are still heavily in use. As for younger people in Skopje/Veles, well they use the Skopje/Veles dialect and the literary language + formal terminology, when it is required (ie. with teachers, professors etc). At home people speak the language which they were brought up in, it is easier. Anyway the Skopje/Veles dialect is not too different from the literary language, but you can still tell if someone is speaking it. I suspect the same will happen in Voden, the literary lanuage need only be used in official circumstances and not with the macedonian speaking community in general. PMK1 (talk) 22:20, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Notification

You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Move of the article Republic of Macedonia to Macedonia by User:ChrisO and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. As threaded discussion is not permitted on most arbitration pages, please ensure that you make all comments in your own section only. Additionally, the guide to arbitration and the Arbitration Committee's procedures may be of use.

Thanks,--Yannismarou (talk) 04:22, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the notification. PMK1 (talk) 07:12, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out Pascha. Христос Возкресе! Χριστός Ανέστη!Politis (talk) 10:25, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed it is...

April 2009

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Loutrochori, Pella. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Laveol 19:53, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia 2

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia 2/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia 2/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, —— nixeagle 03:46, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Slavic names of greek cities

Why do you and User:Laveol go around the last days and change the "slavic dialects of greece: name" to "mkd/bg: name" in greek cities' articles?? I mean the facts are simple. These cities belonged to the Ottoman Empire, now they belong to Greece. The locals (both people who spoke slavic and people who spoke greek) as well as the Bulgarian and Serbian states (and the Greek state) had names for them. Serbia went on to become Yugoslavia. That country with Skopje as its capital went independent from Yugoslavia. Obviously, these cities do have names in both mkd (per ISO) and Bulgarian. I mean, it's only logical. Now, racing to provide those names in wikipedia and then disagreeing as whether the mkd name should be included and not the bulgarian name is quite comical. I can easily spend the night reverting your edits, and stating once again how people in greece don't speak mkd or bg, but "slavic dialects"... that would be funny, too... so, don't push it... the bulgarian names are pretty much the same as the names of these cities in your language. I suggest to "live and let live". And, i suggest that if you really care that much, you should add the greek names of cities in that country with Skopje as its capital and in bulgaria, too. Otherwise, let it rest and don't be that zealous. Heracletus (talk) 02:04, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Friendly, Nikolas

Now, while, User:Laveol was like ok, you're not. To not call you a name is like difficult indeed. :P Let me address all the issues, one by one. You wrote: "In response to your question, the local Macedonian name was added to article where the Macedonian language speakers constitute a large minority or, in many cases, a majority of the population.". Let's suppose you're referring to the greek view of macedonia, you added then the name in Greek?? :P No. So, when you say "local Macedonian name" you must be referring to Macedonia as in the slavic state. You know that this is insulting for a Greek, so I'll call your state skopia from now on, as you called it Macedonia, probably misunderstanding it for greek. :P You wrote: "This population although speaks so-called "roofless" Slavic dialects, which are considered to be Dialects of the Macedonian language.". Considered by whom?? You want me to remind you how the Bulgarians officially consider your language a dialect of theirs?? And, how Greece considers these dialects simply Slavic dialects existing in Greece?? Come on, you know all these. It has been discussed before, you've been pretty active, you can't have missed them. You wrote: "The name "Macedonian Slavic" was chosen to act as a compromise per se, because it not only combined linguistic facts but also the geo-political situation present. The term "Macedonian Slavic" was chosen becuase it was deemed neutral and did not claim that the local inhabitants were either "Aegean Macedonians" or "Slavophone Greeks".". Macedonian Slavic, your link directs to where?? Perhaps, Slavic dialects in Greece?? No. Oddly enough it directs to the article of your language. Wow... How neutral indeed. I suggest you call your "macedonian slavic" greek slavic and your language greek macedonian. i think that is really neutral. :P ...or at least, as neutral as "macedonian slavic".

You wrote: "The addition of the "Bulgarian" name (often the exact same name in the Bulgarian Script) was deemed a WP:FRINGVEIW, seeing as Bulgarian dialects are not spoken in Greek Macedonia. This is a serious POV push on behalf of Laveol and TodorBozhinov. "Macedonian Slavic" is the appropriate name to be attached to places in West and Central Macedonia.". Hey, I thought according to Bulgarians, even your language was a Bulgarian dialect, so there's no point in arguing. Before you start mentioning every wikipedia policy, why don't you try to think if any of them applies to you?? :P I think the proper name to be attached to Greek places is the Greek name. And, out of us being ok people, perhaps attaching the slavic name, as in terms of history and legacy is ok. Now, attaching a supposedly mkd or bg name could be ok, as that is what the people from neighbour states call these places. Having someone going to every article and changing the "slavic name" into "hey, that is the mkd name, actually" is not ok.

User:Laveol has the story right in my talk page User_talk:Heracletus#Slavic_names_of_Greek_cities. When these places became Greek, captured from the Ottoman Empire, there were three states in Macedonia, Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria. It was after the Balkan wars, 1912-1913, quite an old story as it is. The Greeks and Bulgarians did exchange populations. Mostly, the slavic people in the area of Macedonia considered themselves Bulgarians. However, we're living in today, not the early 20th century. So, today, these places belong to Greece for like 90+ years. There are still slavophones in Greece. But, copying from the "macedonian slavic" article: "Instead, the language is often called simply Slavic or Slavomacedonian, with Macedonian Slavic often being used in English to distinguish the language from the Macedonian dialect of Greek. Speakers themselves variously refer to their language as makedonski, makedoniski ("Macedonian"), slaviká (Greek: σλαβικά, "Slavic"), dópia or entópia (Greek: εντόπια, "local/indigenous "),, bălgarski, balgàrtzki, bolgàrtski or bulgàrtski ("Bulgarian"), naši ("our own "), or stariski ("the old ")." Please note how the language is simply called "Slavic", too, as it was "Slavic name" and not "mkd name", and how some people identify as makedonski and others as bulgari... :P

So, to conclude the mess, you were not adding a new slavic name, you were just pushing it into this is "macedonian slavic". I wonder which language is that slavic language spoken in Macedonia, according to you. Wait, i don't have to wonder, your link directs me to it. It is your language. So, pretty much, you got the "slavic name" into "mkd name". And, where? Did you like did that for like big cities and stuff?? No. You did that for places like little villages, which as far as i know, have next to no permanent villages, especially in the winter. I mean places like Neochoraki_(Florina), Milea_(Pella),_Greece, Níki,_Greece and Loutrochori,_Pella. And, then, there is Aetos,_Florina, where the slavic names are clearly same to the Greek one. So, perhaps, i should just go and next to Skopje attach the "traditional Greek name, greek majority lives here: Skopia,official nameΣκόπια". I referred to Greek majority in Skopje, as you wrote "constitute a large minority or, in many cases, a majority of the population" in your first sentence.

I mean, I know history. I know that people in these places didn't speak Greek and probably thought themselves other than Greek before the Balkan wars. But, that was like before 1912-1913. I know there are still people who speak Slavic dialects in Greek Macedonia, but, like, I don't think going around and adding the slavic names improves the articles or does much good.

I also know that Bitola was called Monastiri and had a significant Greek population and that the same thing happened with Eastern Rumelia. So, when you open the names issue, I demand equal treatment. Places like those, and their adjacent villages, have Greek names, too. But, these names are usually mentioned in the latter parts of the article rather than in the introduction.

Moreover, I do live in Thessaloniki, and if I see this again, I'm gonna lose it. I mean, I am the one who tells people from your country "I live in Thessaloniki. Solun, for you" on msn, and I think I'm not a hardliner, as I didn't just revert the names and get into an editing war. But, you keep pushing it...

Anyway, try to calm down and find an acceptable solution...Heracletus (talk) 19:27, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

You wrote: "Macedonian Slavic, was chosen because it was not claiming that the speakers had either a Macedonian or Greek ethnic conscienceness.". Chosen by whom?? Do you have consensus on that?? :P "Macedonian Slavic" implies the Macedonian language, your language is the only one which identifies as both Macedonian and Slavic, in case you haven't noticed. You wrote: "The Slavic dialects of Greece, are in fact apart of the Macedonian and Bulgarian language.". That is quite correct, though I know Slavophones in Pieria who identify their language as Serbian... :P

You wrote: "The Greek name is mentioned at Bitola, I cannot see what you are whingeing about.". I had written: "So, pretty much, you got the "slavic name" into "mkd name". And, where? Did you like did that for like big cities and stuff?? No. You did that for places like little villages, which as far as i know, have next to no permanent villages, especially in the winter. I mean places like Neochoraki_(Florina), Milea_(Pella),_Greece, Níki,_Greece and Loutrochori,_Pella. And, then, there is Aetos,_Florina, where the slavic names are clearly same to the Greek one. So, perhaps, i should just go and next to Skopje attach the "traditional Greek name, greek majority lives here: Skopia,official nameΣκόπια". I referred to Greek majority in Skopje, as you wrote "constitute a large minority or, in many cases, a majority of the population" in your first sentence.". I also had written: "Having someone going to every article and changing the "slavic name" into "hey, that is the mkd name, actually" is not ok." And, I also had written: "I also know that Bitola was called Monastiri and had a significant Greek population and that the same thing happened with Eastern Rumelia. So, when you open the names issue, I demand equal treatment. Places like those, and their adjacent villages, have Greek names, too. But, these names are usually mentioned in the latter parts of the article rather than in the introduction.". I guess you have proven you can't either read or understand long pieces of text.

So, let's see what I'm whingeing about. 1. You go and replace the general slavic name of every little Greek village with its name in your language. 2. You don't allow the bulgarian names to go next to that name. 3. You don't put the Greek name of every little village (that is near Greece or ever had a Greek name) of FYROM - and here i should have said Skopia... :P - next to its name in mkd. 4. Of course, the big cities in both FYROM and Bulgaria do have their Greek names in their articles, but only when it's like significantly different - thus, kinda notable - and not next to their slavic names, but, usually, in a Name section. The same does not happen for every village.

I guess that was difficult to understand??

I also made other points, like your saying these are the names in the local Macedonian and your saying that these places have a large minority of speakers of local Macedonian.

Anyway, I could accept the names in mkd and/or bg, but, why don't you like do the same for every village in your own country and Greek names? And, why do you need the drama over bg being added, too? And, in your opinion how notable is "Macedonian Slavic: Ајтос, Ajtos; Bulgarian: Айтос, Aytos" in an article called "Aetos, Florina" in the English wikipedia?? I could easily even find an excuse in your so loved wikipedia policies to delete these names or the whole articles - as not being notables enough, having no references, or anything. :P

The thing is that YOU don't wanna be ok... :P

You dared write this: "Unless you have anything relevant to say, I would advise to read more about the linguistic situation of the Macedonian language on the Balkan peninsula.", while the first section in my talk page reads: "Macedonian language" and was about the very status of mkd in the Balkan peninsula... Should i now call you what?? A person that wants to be open to comments?? :P {Or, should I like say that it's 'cause of people like you that we have this very naming dispute between Greece and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia? :P I mean, in the end, something bad is bound to happen...}

Still friendly, Nikolas

Perhaps, you were friendly, but I won't be anymore. You don't know what my level of knowledge of Slavic languages and dialects is, so, I'd rather you didn't tell me what I'd question and what not. Furthermore, "Grecoman" as is stated in its own article in wikipedia is pejorative. I don't remember ever saying there is a Macedonian or even a slavophone minority in Greece, for you to write "If you find any Greek speaking villages/places in the Republic of Macedonia, feel free to add the Greek name as a minority language name. In the same way which I have done.". Furthermore, everyone (that has a basic knowledge of the issue) does know that the populations in Macedonia are mixed. I'll just add that Manastir (Bitola, Monastiri) and its sanjak (which means the whole area with its adjacent villages, too) did have a significant Greek population. I'll add that even the whole vilayet had a significant greek population and use this as a source: Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Ottoman_census_of_Hilmi_Pasha_.281904.29.

I think it clearly answers this: "Which villages in the Republic of Macedonia had a Greek speaking majority/minority populations?" with that as an answer:"the villages and cities of the Vilayet of Salonica, the villages and cities of the Vilayet of Manastir, AND the villages and cities of the Sanjak of Skopje".

You wrote: "I know of a few Grecoman Vlach villages, who since 1913 have lost any such pro-Greek feelings." If you know that, let me assure you I know that you're a bulgarian in denial deep inside.

I've had enough of those slurs and shit, I wish we would go on war as countries and end this once and forever. I mean, you just won't give up or settle to a decent compromise. You're always gonna keep saying shit. All in all, I would like to say this: "GO FUCK OFF!!! YOU'RE PUSHING YOUR POV." Heracletus (talk) 17:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

If anyone wishes to act upon what I said, I suggest they read the Grecoman article you mentioned and then, note how you changed the slavic names of villages with 200-500 citizens and how you deny there ever existed greek names for places, where, as proven by a great lot of sources, from within and out of wikipedia, hundreds of thousand of greek people lived.

For, I will repeat it, "GO FUCK OFF!!!". Heracletus (talk) 17:44, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia 2

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia 2/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia 2/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, —— nixeagle 03:46, 22 April 2009 (UTC)