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"Charismatic leadership" or "Charismatic authority"

User:64.12.116.201 is constantly changing "Under Hitler's leadership..." to "Under Hitler's charismatic leadership..." despite being reverted. This smells slightly of POV, but I also don't think "charismatic leadership" should have its own article. — JIP | Talk 12:55, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

• Having read charismatic authority, I retract the latter part of my comment, and stand solely by the POV comment. — JIP | Talk 12:57, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

The article does not assert charismatic authority, which has a specialized, socio-political definition. The common dictionary definition holds for use of the term charismatic in the article. Wyss 15:48, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I notice that the adjective is wikified as charismatic leadership which redirs to charismatic authority. Re-reading that, I think the latter article may have some wording problems itself.

I'm neutral. AH was charismatic (he swayed the German establishment, then a nation into institutional crime and atrocity of almost perplexing scale, never mind at least two women committed suicide as a result of their relationships with him). I think some readers mistakenly interpret charismatic as a positive attribute or sympathetic commentary. AH as much as anyone suggests that charisma, like so many other human qualities, is in itself but a characteristic... what one does with one's talents is ultimately much more important. Wyss 13:18, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

After pondering this a bit I think it's helpful, historically supported and instructive to use the term charismatic in the context of that sentence. Wyss 15:45, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Totally agree. Charismatic seems appropriate here. DJ Clayworth 13:47, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

STRONG KEEP. I'm not sure why you keep reverting this simple edit -- it is not POV in ANY way, but the plain and glaringly obvious truth. This man used his personal magnetism and charismatic authority to lead a nation (and Europe) to its doom. Other Nazi leaders used propaganda to transform this Austrian racist in to a mythical, godlike figure -- and from personally reading dozens of personal accounts over the years, he really was by all means intensely charismatic, and this was the basis of his authority (hence the reverts to charismatic leadership). Just ask any historian, sociologist, etc. -- WWII Nazis all called Hitler "The Saviour of Germany," like some modern-day Christ figure; or watch Triumph des Willens for yourself and find out; it isn't hard to spot there...everyday people need to be made fully aware that people like this exist and can naturally use their charisma to positively or negatively manipulate and sway the masses of "sheep." And the above User:Wyss is correct; charisma isn't ALWAYS a positive character trait like you seem to think User:JIP...some who have it (Hitler) used it to exploit others, make tons of money, wield negative power, dominate/oppress, etc., while others used it for positive social change and other worthy causes (Gandhi). Go and read the base article on Charisma and then let us know what you think here. --152.163.100.5 13:56, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Keep...there's nothing POV about that pithy statement; he was a charismatic maniac! He chose to use a profound gift in a terrible, terrible way...shame on him. Berlin Stark 20:48, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

According to Alan Bullock in his biography of both Stalin and Hitler, Stalin missed the charisma of Hitler, (page 404 if I remember it well). Andries 21:00, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Delete...it is true that AH had charisma and his leadership can be described as charismatic, but in the context of this sentence I think it's out of the way and superfluous. We can still include it at another place. Str1977 21:53, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Delete. Put it somewhere else and explain that it is a theory. --Ezeu 23:03, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Why would it be unsuperfluous somewhere else? Why is it a theory? Wyss 02:04, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

KEEP. The FACT that Hitler's leadership was very charismatic is VITALLY IMPORTANT to his ability to take over Germany, defy the Versailles Treaty and get away with it, and push anti-Semitism onto a people to such a degree that it is legally enforced, taught in schools, and millions of murders are commited for it. Mein Kampf is horribly written. It is dry, boring, asinine, and unreadable, but it says the SAME THING as his speeches. The difference was his charisma, which doesn't, of course, come out in print. It is in no way synonymous with "he was a good leader" or "what he did was right." If you still have problems with assigning any connotatively positive attitudes with H17LER DA KILL3R OF DA JOOz OMG then watch a video of one of his speeches on the internet. It doesn't matter what he says: the style is grand, he says what the people want to hear, and everyone cheers their head off. Hitler's subjects found him very charismatic. It is a FACT and not in any way anyone's point of view in any manner. 'Charismatic leadership' was the best way of saying it, makes the most sense, and is accurate, factual, and 100% related to Hitler as a dictator and to this article. Definitely keep the charisma in. I can agree that it might not be the best spot for it. But for the love of god the article is like 20 pages. The person who added it was too lazy to read the whole thing and I understand the sentiment. If you don't want the charisma there, read through the article and find a better spot if you want, or close your eyes and pick a place at random if you prefer, but it's definitely necessary somewhere. --68.148.168.84 03:16, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Referring to his charismatic authority should stay at the beginning of the article because it was so incredibly vital to his leadership and personality; that's where the most important stuff goes. 205.188.116.5 10:50, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

KEEP: there is film footage of Hitler speaking from a podium at a rally, which shows a crowd of screaming teenage girls bursting through a cordon to acclaim him - it predates the Beatles hype by 25 years. "Charismatic" is a keep, but should go along with "media manipulation" and "grow up!". I am grumpy, but not old.--shtove 23:03, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

• And you are sure it isnt a Leni Riefenstahl Films Inc. production? --Ezeu 23:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I dunno. The footage is staged but compelling, and Leni (or whoever) gives a masterclass in how to sell a politician to a shrugging electorate. We could all do with much much more of the same, couldn't we? BTW: This article has the longest list of foreign language counterparts that I've seen on W'pedia. Why are we all so interested?--shtove 01:48, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Why are we all so interested? Because Hitler masterminded and inspired the most destructive war and despicable genocide in the whole of human history, and ALL humans are fascinated (drawn towards yet also repulsed) by the ultra-dark side of humanity; this much is a fact. War (especially on the scale of WWII) is about as dark as you can get. Plus, it was relatively recently that the Holocaust and WWII happened, so the memories are still quite fresh in the wounded collective unconscious of the West, not to mention that many WWII-vets are still alive along with CC-camp survivors, ex-Nazis, etc. I don't care how "cultured" or "refined" you are or claim to be...Hitler's power and darkness will really make you think and his destructive "charisma" still holds sway today around the globe. WWII shaped the modern World as we know it today more than anything else that I can think of. Just imagine the scars that the Germans still hold, the guilt and shame. I’ve always believed that if a person wants to try and understand the 20th Century in the West he/she better try and understand German culture and Germany’s history. Thus, Hitler and his twisted legacy unfortunately lives on and will for a VERY long time to come. --Berlin Stark 07:43, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I have never claimed to be cultured or refined. Why aren't we as interested in Stalin, who (by body count/ideology) was more deadly/influential than Hitler? And I think European inventions of the last 200 years have had more influence on modern life than any war.--shtove 12:49, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

In the long run Stalin was more deadly than Hitler.... But only in the long run... If you know what was the cost in human lives of the WWII (The Great Patriotic War) for the USSR, what was the destiny of the Slavs in Hitler's mind and how great was their courage during the war. There are some reasons to think that they found Stalin's dictatorship very mild in comparison... More serioulsly "Uncle Adolf" wasn't only the worse criminals of all times... He was was also self-destructive and worse of of all he wished to bring all Germany in his self-destructive project...

You wrote << "If you know what was the cost in human lives of the WWII (The Great Patriotic War) for the USSR,..." >> Oh I know the cost as I have studied Operation Barbarossa with some intensity for quite a while. Estimates range as high as 30 million! That's no joke! But of course the flu-pandemic of 1918-19 killed around 50 million, which is the same amount that was said to die in all of WWII; it's all really hard to follow with all of these "estimates" floating about. 152.15.100.163 22:46, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

What else ? It scares me to the bones. Beuark... Ericd 21:13, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

No doubting the courage of Russian resistance to Barbarossa, but why didn't the same people have the courage to see what Stalin was about? The people of western Ukraine know all about the long run, because at one point a large proportion found themselves dead at Stalin's command. If you say,"comparatively mild" then you must be mad. As for the interest in Hitler, I guess it is partly generated by the soap opera aspects of both his life and the rise of the National Socialist party. Ancient Greek drama and Christianity are far more instructive than history in fathoming human depravity.--shtove 22:40, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I may be mad.... Soap opera ? Soap ? Well wash your face and look in the mirror. Experiencing a modern firearm shot is far more instructive than anything else in understanding human nature... Ericd 23:29, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

It may depend on which end of the gun you're looking at, but gunpowder explodes and that's it - no mystery. Apologies for the "mad" query. The "soap opera" description relates to aspects such as the Geli Raubel relationship, the bad art, vegeterianism, drug taking, the jolly sympathy with children, the fatal attraction over women, the marriage to Eva Braun, etc -the kind that inflame vulgar fantasies. The question stands: why the blanket interest in Hitler, when Stalin merits as much, if not more? Isn't it a pretence to insist that the Hitler obsession has anything to do with moral reflection and lesson-learning?--shtove 00:21, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Delete I think there should be part of the article or even a whole section devoted to whether or not Hitler was charismatic, I just don't think it should be added here, it seems inappropriate and although I don't think people here have malicious motives I do think it is possible to be construed as POV. Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg (talk) 22:10, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Delete agree in everything with Moshe. Andries 22:37, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Delete, replace with mesmerizing . Charismatic would be tolerable if we were journalists reporting him speaking , but charismatic in hindsight is poor use as it retains a positive quality that the sane world does not accord . It is therefore a poor use of English (unless the intention is to so accord the positive) .EffK 10:32, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

I will re-introduce the statement about Hitler's charisma or charismatic leadership somewhere in the article as an attributed opinion something like

"Several historians and psychologists have asserted that Hitler possessed charisma or that his leadership was charismatic. "

References, Ian Kershaw, Allan Bullock in Parallel lives, psychologist Len Oakes in Prophetic Charisma. Andries 11:49, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

The "charisma" has a part in the article, but right now it is misplaced in the opening paragraph or rather phrased in too short a manner. In any case, the "charisma" deserves a sentence of its own, explaining that AH made use of his charisma in speeches etc. as part of his regime. Str1977 10:27, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

"Born with his name" ?

In the 10th bullet under the "Trivia" section, I think that phrase should be changed to "given his name at birth" to show that very few babies are actually born with name tags. StuRat 23:33, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Trivia

'IMDb' in the first trivia entry should be a link to the article.

Excommunication

My thoughts about the papacy, the popes and the history of the Roman Catholic Church aside: As Pope Benedict XVI has made public good will gestures towards the Jewish People (among other faiths) would it be a sign of ultimate atonement for him to excommunicate Hitler from the Catholic Church? Is it possible for him to excommunicate a dead person? --RPlunk 17:55, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

RPlunk, no one can be excommunicated post mortem. However, the Church can declare that someone dead had incurred excommunication while alive (there are action that will get oneself automatically excommunicated). In regard to living persons, excommunication is pronounced primarily for the benefit of the excommunicated, to indicate to him the wrongness of his ways and make him repent and turn back. (Of course this only works, if the person in question is touched by such a move - in regard to earthly rulers it worked with Emperor Henry IV, but not with Elizabeth of England or Napoleon. It would have worked less with Hitler.) The secondary reason is the benefit of other people, to warn them not to take someone as an example or to head his teaching (the latter in regard to theologians). In the case of someone dead, the primary reason falls away, since a dead person cannot repent and turn back. The secondary reason is still valid, but the question is whether this should be done - is anyone seriously in doubt about the relation between Hitler and Christianity. If so, education is needed and such a declaration of excommunication might play a role in that. But I doubt that this is the case. A mere symbolic excommunication (which I guess you mean by atonement) I don't right. Str1977 21:20, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

A neutral photograph of Hitler's face

Why not include a photograph of Hitler like the following into the Misplaced Pages introduction ? http://www.2worldwar2.com/adolf-hitler.htm The picture is free and shows Hitler's face as it looked during his dictatorship. No uniform is seen, no heroic gesture or expression is presented. So we just look into the face of Adolf Hitler. And since Hitler looked into the camera, we can look into his eyes. Hans Rosenthal (ROHA) (hans.rosenthal AT t-online.de -- replace AT by @ ) (21112005) PS: As soon as the current version of the Misplaced Pages article on Hitler is editable, I will do two things: 1st) Remove the current Hitler propaganda picture; 2nd) Delete the entry "Cult figures" from the categories section.

Dear Hans, I think the current photo, the one you call propaganda, is better. Yes, it is an official photo and yes, it is aimed at portraying AH in a certain way, but this photo can also help to include into this article this way of "self-potrayal" or self-image. I don't think it's right to insist on AH looking bad on photos. There are other photos included to counter this and the article's text also should be more than enough to dispell any admiration for the man, except for those already lost. As for the "cult figure" category, I agree - the problem is not, that AH is not a cult figure for some people (not only Nazis), but I think the category is nonsensical - when properly applied it'd make a very big category. Str1977 20:40, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

As long as the Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, that long it will not serve for propaganda. What you say is just this: "I think the current photo, the one you call propaganda, is better." -- Can you give only one reason for your claim that: A propaganda foto is better than a foto of neutral origigin and purpose (Zweck) ? So: Why do you not think is my above suggestion not an appropriate one ? To present a picture (a photograph) of Adolf Hitler that is neutral ? Do you Str1977 have any problem with this ? Hans Rosenthal (ROHA) (hans.rosenthal AT t-online.de -- replace AT by @ ) (21112005)

The photo might be first taken for the purpose of propaganda, but that doesn't make any less neutral. I preferred it since it is a) of a better quality and b) giving more information than just how he looked. BTW, what about the propaganda photo over at Stalin? Don't read anything into my comments. Also, it would have been better if you had sought consensus for your pic before changing it. Str1977 00:36, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Hans, I think the photo you found here could be a suitable replacement if you can find a version of it that is high resolution (at least 600x600 pixels) and is not so poorly cropped (his head does not fit in the frame properly). —HorsePunchKid→龜 2005-10-22 00:19:05Z

I think the photo we have (and have had for a long time) is fine. I don't find it non-neutral or anything. Keep it. Shanes 00:47, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

If this is what makes you wonder about Hitler photographs -- (I mean: that some picture has not a high resolution -- Well, then you are still playing in your sandbox. And you are a Hitler fan. So easy to say, so easy to prove. Hans Rosenthal (ROHA) (hans.rosenthal AT t-online.de -- replace AT by @ )

Your constant attempts at condescension and vandalism, Hans, have convinced me that you do not have good intentions with respect to this article, and so I see no point in continuing to debate it with you. I welcome further discussion if you decide at some point that you are capable of conversing constructively. Sorry to have wasted your time. —HorsePunchKid→龜 2005-10-22 01:41:32Z

Mr Rosenthal, may I ask you

• to desist from personal attack on any editor of this page.
• to desist from reverting and reverting before having a consensus.
• not to treat other people's arguments some dismissively. Treat others the way you want to be treated yourself. Take others seriously, if you want to be taken seriously.
• to assume good faith.
• to finally register and get a user name. I know you are free to remain on an IP-basis but this would help your position around here considerably.

Good night, Str1977 01:09, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

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