Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:11, 22 November 2005

Hello AlexPU and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Hope you like it here, and stick around.

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Good luck!

Ukrainian language

Vitay! Sorry, I hadn't noticed you're a newbie. Welcome to wikipedia and enjoy! The problem I had with your NPOV notice is that at the moment I erased it there was no mention of the dispute: neither at the Misplaced Pages:List of controversial issues, Misplaced Pages:Accuracy dispute nor at the Talk:Ukrainian language. So, from my point of view there was no dispute at the time. Remember to state your problem with the article in the discussion before you add a template. The {{NPOV}} is sort of a last resort when all hope is lost.

Now that you started to use the talk page the warning is where it should be. Perhaps you could even use the {{long NPOV}} template, it seems much better in this situation. Anyway, please state what is wrong with the article, not with some user. There are lots of unfriendly/stupid/nationalist people out here and you'd better learn to cope with them. Truth is the key here and facts are your weapons. By offending them (even if they deserve it) you want convince anyone. And stating that someone is a POV-pusher or nationalist is considered highly offensive here (not only by the persons involved). BTW, it's good to see some Ukrainians around here, this wiki badly lacks info on Ukraine. Halibutt 15:54, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

one more comment

Welcome to Wikipeda! A word of unsolicited advice... Your statement in the Ukrainian language topic to an opponent that "If you can documentally prove that Ukrainian was "being used" in USSR in the fields you specify - so do it on the page, cite. And even if you do - your anyway would be lying or misinformed because Sovdepia was purely Byzantine system of lying, hiding and falsing." is equivalent to "Prove it, except I'm not going to believe you". You won't win many arguments this way, and, as I hope you will find very soon, Misplaced Pages is NOT about winning arguments. You may find it useful:

• NEVER to erase ANYTHING anyone else has put in. Change article text "turtles fly" into "X has stated that turtles fly", and make sure the article text draws no conclusions: let the reader decide. If someone erases your own text "the sky is blue", reinsert it as "Y has observed that under the following conditions, the sky looks blue".
• NEVER to say or imply "My point of view is correct, yours is wrong". NEVER say samething is outrageous.
• ALWAYS to avoid politics except in an inherently political argument.
• NEVER to accuse anyone or anything, no matter how unpopular, of lying or falsifying. By doing so, too many will think YOU are the one lying or falsifying.
• NEVER use the word propaganda.
• NEVER to say "this ideology is wrong". You may find it offensive; others find yours equally so. Let ALL ideologies live side by side.

Those are, for better or worse, the items in this monastery's order-book. Good luck!! A. Shetsen 23:48, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Olex, some further advice! What you have just received is generally quite good! It applies to the gentlemen and the honest! However, there is no filter on Misplaced Pages to obstruct the non-gentlemen and the dishonest! And Misplaced Pages is far from being a monastery! While people who are honest, even if mistaken, will be repelled by the word, "propaganda," there are people here whose interests are simply propaganda. It will be your job to sort out the people you encounter. Don't be so ideological as to think that the tendencdy to propaganda doesn't exist, or that it applies with perfect evenness across nations! Keep your eyes open and be discerning! Genyo 03:49, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Mr. Shetsen, it was interesting to read your advices. Let me answer you step-by-step citing your writing.

"Your statement in the Ukrainian language topic to an opponent that "If you can documentally prove that Ukrainian was "being used" in USSR in the fields you specify - so do it on the page, cite. And even if you do - your anyway would be lying or misinformed because Sovdepia was purely Byzantine system of lying, hiding and falsing." is equivalent to "Prove it, except I'm not going to believe you".

I agree my wording was inaccurate but anyway logic. It is commonly recognized that Soviet regime was systematically hiding and destroying documental evidences of it's illegal policy. E.g. Ukrainian SSR documents on death rates and executions in 1930s are mostly burnt or stored in Moscow. As well as secret CPSU decisions on Russifying higher education in Ukraine. So millions of Ukrainians may not have appropriate documents but they would never agree that nothing happened to them or their relatives. Hovewer, there few other ways to prove that Monedula is wrong (e.g. statistics, foreign reports, comparative analysis of witness testimonies). That's what I meant.

"NEVER to erase ANYTHING anyone else has put in."

That's exactly what your compatriot Monedula is doing. Where have you been intil we put that propaganda into light?

"Change article text "turtles fly" into "X has stated that turtles fly", and make sure the article text draws no conclusions: let the reader decide. If someone erases your own text "the sky is blue", reinsert it as "Y has observed that under the following conditions, the sky looks blue".

No, sir, we must have something to start with. Lawlessness of Soviet regime and its shauvinistic national policy are internationally proven facts. While I let you dispute the statements that Ukraine is "a birthplace of elefants" or that Alexander the Macedonian was Ukrainian. If someone persistently writes that turtles fly - I will persistently oppose him.

"NEVER to say or imply "My point of view is correct, yours is wrong". NEVER say samething is outrageous."

I never did.

"ALWAYS to avoid politics except in an inherently political argument."

Since I'm a professional political analyst, let me assure you that anything is a political issue. Because politics is a "universal system of regulating social relations using mechanisms of state power". Как говорил мой военрук, "политика, она везде... Ты девушке в трусы лезешь, обещая на ней жениться - это тоже политика". So I think you're pretty demagogic in this item.

"NEVER to accuse anyone or anything, no matter how unpopular, of lying or falsifying. By doing so, too many will think YOU are the one lying or falsifying."

Again, I never did. What I'm accusing Monedula of is a brutal violation of neutrality rule.

"NEVER use the word propaganda."

No, sir, I will. Propaganda is a sholar term, not an offensive jargonism. And let us call cat a cat.

"NEVER to say "this ideology is wrong". You may find it offensive; others find yours equally so. Let ALL ideologies live side by side."

My fight against Monedula has nothing to do with ideologies. Read my writings thoroughly and you won't find that. Except one: the Misplaced Pages ideology of neutrality.

And most important. As I understand, all your advices are regarding my discussion notes, not contributions. So I don't think you should dispute those notes.

Also, please apply your vision of policy to other "WIkipedians" too. Be neutral and universal.

Anyway, thank you for advice. Best wishes, AlexPU

Edits to Georgiy Gongadze and the Sluzhba Bezpeky Ukrayiny pages

Hi Alex. I think there might be some confusion over my edits to the above pages. On my talk page, you expressed concern that some of my edits introduced factual errors to the entries in addition to grammatical and spelling corrections? You don't seem to have fixed the problems you found with my edits and you didn't indicate what it was that I did wrong. Can you please just give me some idea of the problems with either of them because it has me absolutely puzzled? Apart from possibly breaking some links, I'm quite sure I made no factual editing particularly since I have no position or even background on the issue. Upon review, I can see I haven't fixed all the grammar but I can assure you what I did do was grammatically impeccable although it may not seem like it to a non-native speaker. Best regards though and I hope you can help clear up the confusion. Gest 06:11, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Gest, the most important error was deleting the word "supposedly" regarding the "voice of president Leonid Kuchma" (SBU article). This is a key issue of that scandal as well of modern Ukrainian history. If you study that case thoroughly, you'll see the difference. Stating that Kuchma did say those words would lead us to question why he is not yet arrested and convicted by Ukrainian or US authorities. No court has yet ruled the authenticity of Mel'nychenko's tapes. Remember that nobody is guilty unless convicted.

Your edit on Georgiy Gongadze is less problematic. I actually meant two local languages: Ukrainian and Russian. It can be seen from the subsequent text.

Actually, I also doubt your using of "overseas" instead of "abroad" but that's not a problem worth fixing. Generally, I find some of your grammar edits too academic for web English so I woudn't follow it. Let me assure you that I know the rules but don't like using them as well as milions of native speakers :). In short, I agree with the majority of your edits.

I'd appreciate your checking all my contributions for possible serious mistakes (like those I made in original SBU text). Best regards, AlexPU

Forgot to tell everybody that I contempt Mr.Kuchma deeply. So please do not consider me as advocate of his dignity (despite the fact that he's elected head of my country). Those familiar with Ukrainian politics would probably understand the reason of making this remark. AlexPU

Ahh, now I understand. To avoid making unproven allegations, it is necessary to hedge with supposedly. You are correct and the distinction must be made. The problem is that supposedly is still grammatically incorrect in that context and sounds bizarre and confusing to a native speaker and subsequently counterproductive to the goal of the article. In this case, I would suggest; publishing numerous supposed records of the President's secret conversations and calls. Web English might be OK for these talk pages, blogs or in chatrooms but it is completely unacceptable for an encyclopædic style whether it is on the web or not. Correct English, (or Ukrainian, German or any other language) with all its rules, is the objective for the articles here so even though you don't like using it, you'll need it to write a good Misplaced Pages article.

Also, the issue with abroad/overseas is worth addressing as you are unclear on why the change was made. True, both are adjectives as well as adverbs but only overseas is correct in the attributive position. However, I should have been bolder and rewrote it as, including spying on both Ukrainian opposition politicians and German television journalists outside Ukraine.

I'm sorry my edits strike you as academic but I am an academic and value clear, concise writing because I make my living with it. Consequently, I appreciate your invitation to proofread further contributions from you. For various reasons, I think Eastern European related articles are an important area for Misplaced Pages to expand upon and your input will obviously be invaluable and more authoritative if it is well written in a formal style.

Gest 16:08, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Alex!

I don't know how to reformat these things, but as you spot particular problems, I will work on you with them, even if I have to learn to do it!

Why don't you propose a p[lan of attack?

I would also propose some links and explanations for old gubernia names, and for old region names, like podillia, Slobodzhanshchyna, etc. Genyo 03:16, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Alex,

The Kyiv page looks great. Let me know when the regions page is redone. I'll loointo redirect techniques. Genyo 15:32, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ok, sport, I've tried to edit without any change of content! Let me know! Genyo 00:47, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hey, Alex! I've tried to edit what you wrote for grammar only! Let me know what you think! Genyo 00:56, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/User:AlexPU"

Genyo 02:24, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Subdivision of Ukraine

Hi Alex. I noticed you're making a real article about oblasti, etc. How can I help? Building a navbox, maybe? Cheers. —Michael Z. 18:49, 2004 Sep 17 (UTC)

Yes Michael, it would be great. I really need help with navboxes and redirects. Also, I've messed a little at Cherkasy page and failed to correct :(. Would you please revert it to previous state for a while? As you've seen, I made a general article for these things (Subdivisions of Ukraine). But it's uncomplete yet without a table of comparison and translation, which is also ready but not placed cause I didn't know how to upload tables. Hope to add it soon. Thanks for your support. Best wishes, AlexPU 09:44, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've already fixed the name at Cherkas'ka. It looks like your browser tried to send Unicode but Misplaced Pages assumed ISO-Latin. I'm glad to help with the table -- let me know how. —Michael Z. 22:13, 2004 Sep 21 (UTC)

Hi alex. I posted your first table at Subdivisions of Ukraine. I added a column with romanized names. The second has to wait until the regions' articles titles are updated; I hope to do it tomorrow or on the weekend. In the meantime, you can see the table at User:Mzajac/subdivisions.

Okay. It's done now. I'm checking for redundant or circular redirects. I added some redirects, which might have to be updated later:

• Autonomous Republic of Crimea -> Crimean Republic
• Kryms'ka oblast' -> Crimean Republic

—Michael Z. 19:58, 2004 Sep 23 (UTC)

Whew!—I simplified about 30 double-redirects and updated a whole bunch of links. Updated the links in Template:oblasti. I left a few links with different names, where the context seemed to dictate it (e.g. a couple of links to "Zaporozhye" in Russian-oriented articles on Crimean history).

There are still many links to the old names like Poltava region. And I have to update the table at List of capitals of subnational entities another day. —Michael Z. 20:58, 2004 Sep 23 (UTC)

PS: how does this look? Still needs some work, but an improvement.

File:Oblasti-test.png

Alex,

    I've started to expand the stub for the Chernihivs'ka obalst'.  Please feel free to edit!

Genyo 00:46, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

PS Thank you for working on the elections! Dai nam Bozhe volyu! Slava Ukrayini!

Glad to see you back, Genyo.AlexPU

Map of Ukarine

Hello AlexPU, I understand your english without (bigger) problems. I only forgot too many words in written english. I can speak quite well, but writing is my problem. So I will translate the map within some days to an english version. That's not a big work, but I'll please you to take a look on the version and give me some help. --Steschke 16:31, 2004 Sep 28 (UTC)

Did you see the other versions?

1. Oblast Donezk hervorgehoben
2. Oblast Lemberg hervorgehoben
3. ukrainische Version

--Steschke 16:39, 2004 Sep 28 (UTC)

I did a first english version. --Steschke 18:17, 2004 Sep 28 (UTC)

Map looks great! Thank you. But let me point at two little bugs: misspelling of Ternopil' and Chernihiv (see list just below your map). Would you correct them? Best wishes, AlexPU 12:01, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll fix that tonight (UTC) --Steschke 12:33, 2004 Sep 30 (UTC)

I fixed the bugs (I hope all). Some days ago I insert this map in the ukraine article but it was taken off very fast. Anyway, if you like to get some version with highlighed oblasts, just tell me. --Steschke 21:39, 2004 Sep 30 (UTC)

List of cities in Ukraine

Hi Alex. I gave your history section a quick copy-edit; I'll have another look when I have a bit more time, but I think it looks okay. Good work.

Have a look at List of cities in Ukraine. Someone has done a good job updating all the Ukrainian names. I've found a couple of mistakes, and checked all of the English names, and put the results on the talk page. Please have a look, and correct/add/delete as necessary. When we're done, I'll merge the results into that page.

—Michael Z. 17:40, 2004 Oct 3 (UTC)

Downloaded all pages you mentioned for further analysis. Thanks for Kyiv history. Pryvit. AlexPU 20:43, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

moving this discussion to the talk page for WikiProject Ukrainian subdivisions—Michael Z. 04:39, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)

WikiProject Ukrainian Subdivisions

Hi Alex. I've gone ahead and created WikiProject Ukrainian subdivisions. Now we can discuss this work in one place, instead of in our many user talk pages. I've taken the liberty of adding your name to the project page, and I'm going to move some of our discussion there. Please let me know what you think. На здоров’я!  Michael Z. 04:11, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)

moving causes double redirects

Please fix all double-redirects listed at Special:Whatlinkshere/Volodymyr-Volyns'kyi and fix those that your moves create in the future. --Joy 17:06, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I got these, Alex. —Michael Z. 20:46, 2004 Oct 11 (UTC)

Sorry guys. I actually did check for redirects, but decided that the article in question should be in that list. AlexPU

Ukrainian presidential elections

I did a bit of editing in the candidates' articles, and at Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2004. Not much so far, but let's keep up-to-date in that article's talk page. Cheers. —Michael Z. 06:41, 2004 Nov 10 (UTC)

Edits to NKVD

Before threatening to accuse something in POVism, I suggest to look into person's history of edits. In this particular case, I am one of the few who systematically adds factual articles about political repressions in the USSR and maintains the consistency of the category:Soviet political repressions (I added its reference to NKVD; did you happen to look into it?). As for the deletions, I deleted all what was erroneous in this chaotic babble about how bad NKVD was. In particular, deportations of tatars etc. were put into section that speak about "liberated territories", which is nonsense. Deportations deserve a special section. In fact, this is the whole article Population transfer in the Soviet Union, which shows that there was a whole politics of the Stalinist state, rather than deeds of these NKVD villains. As for explanations, I am not going to explain every nonsense an anonymous contributor adds to wikipedia. But I am pretty tolerant to other editors' point of views in cases of disputes. Like I said, I prefer to work with factual material, which, unlike various political rant, is usually impossible to contest. I believe this is the true goal of an encyclopedia. Mikkalai 17:35, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Good work on the Cassette Scandal article!

Good job. 68.81.231.127 12:25, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And also on the UBK article!

police

i dont know if your are aware, but you deleted the police page. be carefull with your edits. Xtra 13:18, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Surely I din't mean to. And I've no idea how did it happen. Anybody has? Web experts? Cause this is not the first time when I'm accused in misterious deleting. AlexPU

Ukrainians in space

Hi Alex. On a whim, I created and populated Category:Ukrainian space program while avoiding work. The articles are all little stubs. Would you have a look and see if I haven't left out anything obvious? I wanted to start an article about the Sich-1 and Coronas-F satellites, but I've run out of time. Michael Z.

Will do my best, Michael.

Pryvit, AlexPU

Take a look at NKAU and its talk. AlexPU

Category problems

But you're a lucky guy - I've tried to create already two new categories and no freaking effect so far. Would you take a look when not so busy?

• Category:Non-combat accidents involving military
• Category:Kyiv city

You don't really have to create category pages, as such. Just put a new category link at the bottom of an article. Then go to that category, which now has your article in it, and put one or more category links to parent categories in there. The new category is now part of the hierarchy. —Michael Z. 2005-01-22 16:54 Z

One more thing: when the category is still an orphan, the links above generate a URL that goes to the page for editing. But you can still manually type or paste the URL into your browser, and see the page (e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/Category:Non-combat_accidents_involving_military).

Khotyn uprising (1919)

I think you should be interested to take a look at the Khotyn article, which is repeatedly flooded by Romanian nationalism. If you have any facts on the Khotyn uprising, please help to make the article better. Ghirlandajo 06:55, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Fantastic idea!

Hi,

Good job man! That was a great idea to create Category:Non-combat accidents involving military. Good luck! --Pouya 19:33, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Category:World Heritage Sites in the Ukraine

I've replied on my talk page; it's prolly easiest to keep the discussion in one place. — OwenBlacker 20:34, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)

Tobias COnradi's unacceptable actions on oblasti pages

I cannot revert. Oblast' is not english. Please look on other countries (not Russia) where else do we use non-english terms? Privet Tobias Conradi 07:19, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If someone has another opinion than you, you call him asshole? Tobias Conradi 07:39, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Where do you think is the best place to discuss the naming of province/oblast? Tobias Conradi 07:42, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If someone is defiantly ignoring the Wiki ethics and objections from other Wikipedians, and refusing to discuss his edits, I call him an asshole. And today's asshole seems to be To-o-o-bias Conradi! AlexPU

At this stage, you got no moral right to discuss anything. You had your chance after my first polite reprimand. Now you're discredited - at least for some time. If you're concerned with the naming of province/oblast, please ask some tolerant and co-operative Wikipedian to back your opinion and fulfill all necessary discussion procedures. And please, don't rename anything more. AlexPU

WikiEthics are Be bold. I stopped renaming, but had to rename until K starting from Z. Because I was allready in some K. So now we know oblasts pages from K-Z all have been moved. You call Would you stop renaming oblast' until you freaking hear the objections of other Wikipedians polite? And than after 7 minutes giving me an 24h-ultimatum? Maybe I have seen your first message only short moments before?

I stop renaming for now and would really like to talk about it. Tell me where Privjet from Berlin. :-) Tobias Conradi 08:37, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

An appropriate place to discuss this would be Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Ukrainian subdivisions, which you may have noticed was linked from the top of each oblast's talk page. Please calm down, people. I've only noticed this debate now. Would someone summarize on that talk page?

Oblast is indeed an English word, at least according to the American Heritage Dictionary. —Michael Z. 2005-03-4 16:09 Z

I have never been on any oblast talk page. Thanks telling that oblast might be english, but what about oblast' as it was written? Tobias Conradi 07:57, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In the german WP we also use the word Oblast. Tobias should not try to move the oblast-articles in de:WP. --Steschke 07:46, 2005 Mar 5 (UTC)

You are talking nonsense - I never tried anything with de:WP Tobias Conradi 07:57, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Wenn du dir die Mühe machen würdest zu verstehen: Tobias should not try ist Future. --Steschke 13:16, 2005 Mar 6 (UTC)

My fight against Tobias was purely the matter of ethics (and not the question of content) - as well as my other Wikiconflict with Russian propagandists. If a guy is renaming 25 typical and large-subject articles without any discussion, "fighting" the wide-spread Misplaced Pages term, he deserves a massive censure. And I'm eager to repeat such actions against every other defiant vandal (no matter how much time would I spend for it). If Tobias voluntarily reverted his own (those still unreverted) changes, it would be the best demonstration of his tolerance, co-operativeness and contributing objectivity.

As for the essence of the oblast' question, I'm always ready to discuss the possible changes to oblast' pages. I'm going to do that exactly where Michael suggests to do it. And even if the consensus of Wikipedians recognizes the idea of Tobias, I would still demand his edits to be reverted before the end of discussion. While we discuss the edits, other people might just look for the info on oblast's :( AlexPU

Ukrain city maps

Hi Alex, I invite you to find out the best basic ukrain map to show the position of cities. We discuss here --ST ○ 06:58, 2005 Mar 9 (UTC)

Sorry, I try to explain: We try to find a construct to represent Ukrainian cities. The first point is to find a map to point the position of a city (independently if it's actually on it's correct place). We thought about oblasts with named cities first. That has the disadvantage that you only can use it in the deWP. And the oblasts are not useful to orientate. So we discuss now, if we shouldn't use simple maps of Ukraine only with dots on them. That would have the advantage, that we could store the images at commons and all WPs can use them in their language. And they would have a similar look (like the Image:Location berlin in germany.png, which are used in all german articles of cities and towns). Because of this idea, I asked you to take a look and take part at the discussion if you think this idea could be success- and useful also for you. --ST ○ 23:22, 2005 Mar 9 (UTC)

Navy Expert

I would like to work with you on articles about Military of Ukraine, Russian Navy, and so on. I am currently working on articles (very slowly) about Soviet and Russian submarine accidents. I spent many years in the United States Navy's Submarine Service, and now I work for the Navy as a civilian contractor, so in English I am something of an expert. ➥the Epopt 15:30, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'd also be pleased to help, with English/American terminology and usage etc. Pedant 19:46, 2005 Mar 9 (UTC)

Thank you guys. I'm fastening my preparations for the joint attack. For the start, I suggest both of you (especially the professional Epopt) to consider where could you harvest the info on particular ships of the Soviet/Ukrainian (and also, if you want, Russian) navies. I mean there must be some English -language military guides (Jane's or what is it called?) where you can find the:

• old Soviet names and codes as well as the new codes (or what the digit labels on the boards are called?)
• the types of particular ships and their NATO classification
• any other relevant info (where and when she was built, history, pictures etc.)

To refine your search, I'm preparing the list of the actual ships with their Ukrainian names (judging by mostly media sources). Also, I'm going to clarify the history, personalia&ranks and bases (however, bases and ports may be also best accesible to you through international navy guides). Best wishes, AlexPU

• The military guide you're thinking of is Jane's Fighting Ships and its hundreds of spin-offs. Jane's Web site is http://www.janes.com/ .
• I'm not sure what you mean by "the digit labels on the boards" -- is that "K-141" for the submarine Kursk?
• Some information on Soviet and Russian submarines (Stupid question: does Ukraine operate submarines?) can be found at http://submarine.id.ru/ . I haven't looked for surface-fleet info recently.
• NATO reporting name are reasonably easy to look up on various .mil Web sites.

➥the Epopt 15:26, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hi Epopt. I've tried to look into Jane's. there's a lot of info there, and it seems to be largely pay-only. So I need some time (and hepl may be) to harvest something here.

By "labes" I meant the digit-letter combinations painted on the boards of the surface ships. Not sure for subs. I guess that combination is unique and important. Isn't it?

Yes, Ukraine possess a small old diesel sub named "Zaporizhia" (Cyrillic Запоріжжя). Don't know the class/project - can you harvest it knowing the name?. And no :(( we don't operate it - the sub is in permanent repair since it was commisioned form Russian guys - that's why she is a constant hero of journalist stories. But the Navy comand demonstrates the willing to operate it someday.

Thanks for the first help. AlexPU

I have added a tiny amount to your stub about Ukraine's submarine, and I'll add more as I research it. ➥the Epopt 23:16, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

DYK

Just so you know. Since we're on the English wikipedia here, Kiev is how most English people refer to the city. I therefore changed the link in your suggested item. (I do believe the Ukrainian name is mentioned in the lead, though. Mgm| 13:23, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)

Arsenal

Hi Alex, please look at the note I left at the Arsenal Mutiny article talk page. Also, may I suggest you to avoid using Kyiv in Misplaced Pages as the primary name of the city. I understand that you may want to promote the usage of Kyiv by using it yourself. But at Misplaced Pages, I think, the choice of the term should reflect the current usage rather than promote some terms over the others. Regards, Irpen 07:12, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

Alex, I am responding to the note you left at my talk page. I don't have a big problem with FC Arsenal called either way. Save few exceptional cases, I usually don't go to the page just in order to change a single term when it is as contentious as Kiev/Kyiv. Mostly, I only do this change in the course of some other page edits. Unlike when used for the name of the city itself in English WP, the argument you made for the FC name has merit and I am happy to have it the way you changed it back.

I don't feel good, though, about the tone of the note you left at my talk page and about your calling my edits outrageous. Please don't become short-tempered when you disagree with others. I work on all articles in good faith and I don't think I deserved to be addressed in such a tone. Now, lets put this matter behind and go back to business of improving the WP. Please don't take this personally, but I think your should reconsider your usage of Kyiv for the name of the city in your edits. I left a note on the talk page of one of the articles and there is enough said on this heated discussion elsewhere. Please note, that I agreed with your moving the Irpen river article into Irpin, which I think made perfect sense for today's day. You may notice, that I created the article a while ago, and now I would have created it as Irpin as well. I hope, our discussions will remain civil, and I really appreciate your contributions to WP, including those I disagree. Irpen 22:34, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

Apologies presented for the tone - it really was an emotional pre-emptive attack. I'm glad you recognize the essence of my objection regarding the football club. Best wishes, AlexPU 20:45, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Chersones

Hi Alex, I'm looking for a picture or scan of an 1 Griwna banknote to use in the article about Chersones (Sewastopol). Do you have an idea? --ST ○ 19:47, 2005 Mar 18 (UTC)

Elya left this on my talk-page: Alex, where are you living and what driver do you need ? I'll be in Ushhorod in May and could bring you something on CD ;-) - if this is not too late. --elya 18:29, 19. Mär 2005 (CET) --ST ○ 19:56, 2005 Mar 19 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, Elya&Steschke. I'm a Kyivite, and, unfortunately, not going to visit Uzhhorod in foreseeable future. Actually, I'm looking for a CD ( with an HP Scanjet 6200 driver. If I don't get that from my friends or acquaintances - hope to buy it at the "something CD:)" (I got your humor) market. But anyway, thanks for readiness to help.

BTW, Elya, I see you've done a great Ukraine-related job there at De:Misplaced Pages (judging from the titles I can somehow understand from German). Best wishes, AlexPU 20:51, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC).

Unfortunately, I'm leaving for an approximately month-long Wikibreak. (Don't know how will I stand it :( ). But, feel free to post your possible messages and help requests here - I promise to answer them ASA return. Pryvit, AlexPU 21:05, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Best wishes to you during your leave, Alex. Thanks for all your hard work and knowledgeable contributions around here. Cheers, Michael Z. 2005-03-20 21:48 Z

Dropped in for a minute

Hi everybody. I dropped in for a minute - just to see what's happening in this great project. Unfortunately, I'm still on Wikibreak and have no time/energy for contribiting. Sorry if I didn't answer someone's message.

However:

• I can now scan and send some not very large Ukraine-related images (since I have a scanner). E.g., Sven Teschke requested a bank note scan.

• I've got a large multimedia collection depicting our Orange Revolution (TV newscasts&footages, animated clips, photos, photodesign, scanned leaflets, music etc.) Some of this stuff is copyrights-free or anonimous. If someone would like to post it at the respective Wiki pages - I can also send it.

So, people, if you need my help with some particular non-lasting tasks - please E-mail me.

Best wishes, AlexPU 12:02, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

P.S. If someone is interested in my experience, I do miss Misplaced Pages, but without any addiction suffering. My work pressure keeps me far from even thinking about writing something more :(( But I miss English very much. WP was the only place where I could use it. Hope I will return to editing someday.

Welcome back

Hi Alex! Just slumming a bit at Misplaced Pages? Thanks for filling in some info at tank desant. Hope to see you around here a bit. —Michael Z. 2005-11-10 19:38 Z

Hi Michael! Thanks for your welcoming. Glad to see you active as usual. Couldn't stand my desire to edit something, and to use English again. So many things changed since I left... I'm a little afraid of returning to our mainstream Ukraine articles. Need to read and think more. User:AlexPU

And I freaking forgot how to sign myself...

Done AlexPU

Sign with four tildes: ~~~~. Yup, some things change, some don't. Add Portal:Ukraine and some of its sub-pages to your watchlist. Cheers. —Michael Z. 2005-11-10 21:35 Z

Sorry Michael

Sorry Michael, I've incidentally blanked your talk page. Tried to fix it for a 5 times - with no freaking success. Would you do it yourself and accept my apologies& AlexPU 21:12, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

No problem; already fixed. I think the page is too long; I'll archive most of it shortly. Have a look at Raions of Kiev. —Michael Z. 2005-11-11 21:14 Z

Будьмо знайомі!

Hi Alex, nice to meet you here. There is so little Ukrainian editors at WP. Let's keap contact.--AndriyK 19:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi. I've already noticed you're an active editor of Ukraine pages. (I've been on a long Wikibreak.) And you seem to be fighting Russian gingoists - as I sometimes do. Tak trymaty! AlexPU 19:10, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Alex, yet again, I urge you to avoid name calling. In no time after your return to Misplaced Pages you resumed using this practice all too much. Maybe you forgot, but your first ever message to me (shortly after I've just started here) was a rude one. At that time, I was almost a newbie and you were an aged Wikipedian so welcoming me. Now, that I am also an aged Wikipedian, the first message from you after your wikibreak is even more rude.

I understand that, as you put it, you are now "too busy now to study Wikiethics pages thoroughly", but even if you apply any common sense ethics and civility rules you would have not done that and you don't need to read WP:Civil to be aware of that.

I hope you said "tak trymaty" above without really studying the contributions of the above user which by now have included disruptive behaviour, lack of civility, extreme POV pushing, multiple 3RR violations, effective vote falsification by using forums to recruit socks/absentee votes see (talk:Oleg of Chernihiv), personal attacks on and off Misplaced Pages, multiple copyright vilations and moving articles by cut and paste when he could not get his way by an accepted procedure. If you are interested, you can read his talk, especially starting from User_talk:AndriyK#Discussion_at_maidanua.org, my talk, particularly starting from User_talk:Irpen#Discussion_on_maidanua.org. In no time AndriyK managed to get himself blocked thrice, see (his block log), and aggravate everyone around him. This is a rather typical representation of his contributions.

I remember many good contributions you made before your wikibreak and we do need contributors around here. I hope you will help to make several more Ukrainian articles Misplaced Pages:Featured articles. So far we have only one, the Hero of Ukraine article, mostly written by an American, BTW. Shame on us! The featureable articles, IMO (those sufficiently detailed to be within reach) are Kiev, History of Kiev, Orange Revolution, Ukrainian language (particularly its history). My pet project History of Christianity in Ukraine is largely abandoned, but could be revived if there is an interest. I am looking forward to your help. --Irpen 21:26, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Na/v Ukrayini—eliminating vague language

Hi Alex. My question at talk:Ukraine#Na/v Ukrayini—eliminating vague language could probably use your perspective. Thanks. —Michael Z. 2005-11-15 17:37 Z

Hi. I'll see what can I add to discussion. AlexPU 18:53, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Navbox

The navbox is done. By the way, I'm Ukrainian too. --Akhristov 00:12, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

please reconsider

I have removed the content of this section together with an inflamatory title and replaced it with this request to the owner of this page, and not the first one from me, to avoid inflammation. The notorious "Black book" by Witkacy have made enough stir in your absence and is still hurting the adminship nomination of Halibutt, whose only fault was to oppose it's VfD and allow it moved to his userspace once it was VfDe. Feel free to restore this of course, since it is up to you what to have in your userspace but I suggest you give this another thought. No matter what you think about other people's edits, you will not help your cause by sticking to such behavior. --Irpen 02:11, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Cool it

Please take a look at Misplaced Pages:Vandalism#What vandalism is not. Characterizing others' edits as vandalism in a POV dispute is a serious breach of civility. Just because someone disagrees with you, even if they are wrong, none of these are justifications for calling edit vandalism. You also need to seriously consider toning down your language. Calling others "Propagandistic" and maintaining some kind of hitlist is not conducive to building an encyclopedia. Try to be cooperactive and civil, and if that doesn't resolve a dispute, use our processes at WP:DR, don't just resort to personal attacks and revert warring. Dmcdevit·t 22:55, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Alex, leave another comment like this and you'll find yourself blocked for a while to cool off. I know you feel strongly, but that does not justify abusive language. It does nothing to build an encyclopedia, and does much to harm it. Stop. Dmcdevit·t 23:08, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

To answer your questions:

• It is not directly prohibited per se in any policy, but there is a precedent and strong consensus for forcing users to delete them. More importantly though, it is just wrong, and unproductive for Misplaced Pages.
• All of your edits to Misplaced Pages are released under the GFDL. That's what you agreed when you clicked the save button. You cannot take them back, unless there is a standar deletion criterion they fall under. But I especially don't see why you'd want to, if they were useful encyclopedia articles. If you're pondering leaving over this conflict, that may be to our loss, but I would hope you wouldn't want to reduce our store of knowledge here (for anyone in the world to access) because you can't get along with an editor. Dmcdevit·t 00:18, 22 November 2005 (UTC)