| Revision as of 23:53, 12 May 2009 view sourceOttava Rima (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users20,327 edits →AN/I notice← Previous edit | Revision as of 23:54, 12 May 2009 view source Ottava Rima (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users20,327 edits →Disruption - Please stop now - final warningNext edit → | ||
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| :Thank you. ] (]) 23:43, 12 May 2009 (UTC) | :Thank you. ] (]) 23:43, 12 May 2009 (UTC) | ||
| ::As I stated before, all I wanted was the descriptive "hate speech" removed. I can deal with Rootology's attacks on my talk page and on the RfA talk page, but the attacks in the answer are inappropriate. ] (]) 23:50, 12 May 2009 (UTC) | ::As I stated before, all I wanted was the descriptive "hate speech" removed. I can deal with Rootology's attacks on my talk page and on the RfA talk page, but the attacks in the answer are inappropriate. ] (]) 23:50, 12 May 2009 (UTC) | ||
| ::Note - I wont be responding to the ANI thread anymore. If any Arbitrators want access to some of the emails I've received on the matter from people who are upset, I will ask permission to forward. ] (]) 23:54, 12 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 23:54, 12 May 2009
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If you have any problems, concerns, or just want to comment on my actions and behavior in general, please leave a message here, or if you would like to discuss things, my talk page and email is available for use. A watch page has been created that will list areas that I might have problems with and may need help with. - Ottava Rima
Re: Problematic Decline
Don't bother, as I was working with that user via email shortly after that. He's already gotten a new account and will begin editing again soon.
In the future, if you do have a concern with something I've done, I'd really appreciate you talking with me first before you go running to the higher-ups. I find it somewhat rude that you didn't do this here. Hersfold 21:31, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
- P.S. - A look at the user's block log would have told you this as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:KillYourselfNow Hersfold 21:34, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if I misunderstood, but your notice above seemed to imply you were going to file a request with the crats whether I responded or not. In any event, I did discuss with the user the problem with their username, the other problems they were having (edit warring) and how to avoid both. When I felt the user had a satisfactory understanding of them, I released the block on his IP address to allow him to make a new account, something which is standard procedure when an account does not have any substantial edits attributed to it. I did what I was "supposed" to do; if I didn't do it the way you feel I should have, I'm sorry, but it's done now. There is no point in posting further at User talk:KillYourselfNow, as that account is no longer active. The user is back editing, with a name that is acceptable under policy. Hersfold 21:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
- Ottava, he emailed me. It seemed easier at that point to continue the discussion by email, and I noted such in the block log. If you believe I would unblock a user who I felt would continue edit warring, you are sorely mistaken. I am keeping an eye on his contributions. Contrary to your apparent belief, I am not being irresponsible here. Now if you do not mind, I have better things to do than be subject to baseless accusations of abuse. Good day. Hersfold 23:11, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
- Ottava, this happens all the time. You can see a comment from Jayron on the talk page now telling him to make another account, not to file a rename request. I don't see why you're making such an issue out of this, because it really isn't one. Hersfold 23:32, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Gerontion
When you finish real life work, I would love it if you would take a look at Gerontion which I have worked on a bit since I felt left out of the Four Quartets party:) Mrathel (talk) 00:21, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
- The Four Quartets pages has only about 50% of the information. I am currently in the middle of writing a real life article on the relationship of Four Quartets and The Waste Land, so I have been distracted. However, I will drag you into all of that for a GA push for the five articles after I am done (possibly by this weekend if all goes well). Ottava Rima (talk) 01:07, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Re Round
Over at the Ryulong ArbCom discussion, there has been use of the term "round". Perhaps we should change to a word that wouldn't seem so much like a boxing match? I just find it a tad odd. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 01:16, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
- I once compared workshops to rings... not of boxing but for vale tudo (MMA). But yes, I agree... so, let's change it! What do you suggest?
- P.S. I suggest 'phase'. What do you think? -- FayssalF - 01:48, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
- Well, "phase" makes me think of some kind of sci-fi show. I don't know why. :) "Section" wouldn't have the right "progression" feel. "Part" may have the "incomplete" feel to it and suggest a progression. There are other words - session, stage, etc. We could just keep the term "round" and include a fight to the death at the end. That may liven things up around here. :)Ottava Rima (talk) 01:59, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
- 'Stage' seems right. I'll update it later on today. Thanks. -- FayssalF - 02:15, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
- Well, "phase" makes me think of some kind of sci-fi show. I don't know why. :) "Section" wouldn't have the right "progression" feel. "Part" may have the "incomplete" feel to it and suggest a progression. There are other words - session, stage, etc. We could just keep the term "round" and include a fight to the death at the end. That may liven things up around here. :)Ottava Rima (talk) 01:59, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
WikiCup Newsletter XIV
| The WikiCup Newsletter | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Delivered for the WikiCup by ROBOTIC GARDEN at 14:31, 26 April 2009 (UTC). To report errors see the talk page.
GA Congratulations!
The article you nominated for Good Article, Sermons of Jonathan Swift has passed! NancyHeise 00:36, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
RE: your comment at the Graeme Bartlett RfA
Apologies if this isn't the appropriate venue, but I didn't want to disrupt the RfA with my response. I didn't think it was worth opposing since in a situation as the question described there would most likely be other involved admins that would be willing to pull the trigger if a block was the sensible move. Not every admin should be compelled to make blocks, there's always others to do the dirty work. In my view its better to have a single admin who doesn't go far enough with these than an admin who hands out blocks like ice cream cones at the seashore. ThemFromSpace 05:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- If you have knowledge of a major misdoing, your first step should not be the warn the person and let them know that someone is onto their scheme. The first thing you do is you collect evidence and go to the proper authorities. I don't care if he blocks or not. You never go to the person who is destroying Misplaced Pages about things, because they obviously can't be trusted if they are doing it in the first place. The sheer amount of support there only verifies -why- Misplaced Pages is having problems with these sock masters. Newyorkbrad, for example, knows that the user MyWikiBiz over at WikipediaReview admitted to running a sock, and yet he wasn't phased at all by the answer to question 4. He knows directly that people are doing this, and yet doesn't see it as a priority. One of our Arbitrators! We really have only ourselves to blame for this sockmasters, because we are too weak to bother doing the right thing. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:29, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
TCGJ
Hey Ottava,
Was wanting to know what the situation was with this one. You mentioned having sources that would allow for a more extended discussion of literature style/impact – are those online anywhere or are they in a physical collection? Just wanted to see where things were at; I think the article has potential and your thoughts here are appreciated. Best, —Anonymous Dissident 12:02, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- I have many books on Fielding, some dealing with his theories of novels. I also have some notes for a few other pages that dealt with the journal. After next week, I will have a chance to start devoting full fledge to Misplaced Pages. I've been busy with real life stuff at the moment. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- All in your own time. :-) —Anonymous Dissident 13:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
RfA !votes
Hey there. I know you and I are like oil and water, but we just !voted similarly on two RfAs. And even agreed on some of the reasons for the votes. Looking for flying swine momentarily. Tan | 39 15:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- Lets just hope that they don't have the flu. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:01, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Response from WT:RFA
"Burden of evidence is on the opposer? That is an utterly ridiculous statement that makes me have 100% -no- confidence in your ability to judge RFAs at all. The burden of evidence needs to be on the supporter, as this is a position of power and responsibility, and admin must be shown to be trusted. Anything else is a disgrace. Your comment is shameful in every respect and I hope you strike it immediately. If not, it will be used in any future closing of RfAs performed by you in order to see if you are really cut out to be a Crat."
I'm honestly surprised by how venomous your response is. I've made a comment at User talk:Malleus Fatuorum#Response from WT:RFA that may shed some light on my attitude (in conjunction with User:EVula/opining/RfA ramblings). However, I'm totally confused by the "it will be used in any future closing of RfAs performed by you" bit. Of interest to you may be User:EVula/opining/admin recall if you truly have a lack of faith in me as a bureaucrat, but this is the first I've heard that my attitude may not be "right"; too many editors I respect do have confidence in me as a bureaucrat for me to start second-guessing myself almost a year after becoming a bureaucrat. EVula // talk // ☯ // 10:17, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
- Anyone, anyone, who treats RfA as a vote does not belong at RfA. A bureaucrat that counts supports without rationals, or those whose rationals are "no big deal", "why not", or other frivolities, are treating it like a vote. Misplaced Pages is based on consensus, which requires discussion. That is our fundamental belief structure here. Your comments were 100% inappropriate and go against the basic structure of this place. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:41, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
- This is yet another example of where you and I simply don't see eye to eye. I consider the idea of not discounting no-rationale !votes as being akin to treating the entire process as a straight vote a laugh. I fail to see how my comments were "inappropriate," though; I think we're using different definitions of the word. EVula // talk // ☯ // 03:40, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
WikiCup Newsletter XV
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Delivered for the WikiCup by ROBOTIC GARDEN at 08:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC). To report errors see the talk page.
Your comments in response to new york brad on RFA talk page
"Someone who is unwilling to stand up to what they believe in didn't actually believe in it to begin with. I have no respect for individuals without convictions." You see, the problem with DougsTech isn't his opinions, nobody has suggested his opinions are disruptive, but his behaviour, as in, how he expresses his opinions. If he start a discussion on an appropriate forum maybe he'd find people who agree with him, and nobody would have any problem with him at all. But what's he's doing now is disruptive.--22:04, 4 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.116.145 (talk)
- My comment wasn't about Doug. It was about people in general. If NYbrad would cower before angry masses then he would be showing weakness that can't really be respected. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:57, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
- Ottava, are you suggesting that if I make a particular edit or series of edits, and a vast majority of other editors (including yourself perhaps) tell me to stop, that I should keep on doing it to avoid "showing weakness"? You have never hesitated in speaking out against those you believe have done the wrong thing, but now you seem to be saying that people should never change their minds or back down in the face of opposition. I may be misinterpreting you, but I am having difficulty in reconciling this opinion with your previous actions. Raven4x4x (talk) 00:04, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- If you believe in what you say, then you wouldn't change your mind. If you change your mind, then you didn't believe in what you say. I have respect for the loyal opposition, but none for the cowardly ally. This is not about actions, but about beliefs. One should always pursue what they think is right, moral, and just. If not, then they shouldn't be doing anything at all. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:21, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- Is it not possible though to believe something to be right based on the evidence available to you, but then encounter new evidence that forces you to re-evaluate your beliefs? For example, based on your edits here I believe you to be a principled person who stands up for what you feel is right, and I respect you for that. If evidence was to come to light that you have infact murdered five people, I would obviously need to rethink my beliefs. An extreme example I know, but changing my mind in this case would not be a sign of "cowardice" nor would it diminish the strength of my previously held beliefs.
- Anyway, I think the point of Brad's comment was not about changing your beliefs or ceasing to act on them, but more about the manner in which you act. Certainly you should persue what you believe to be right, but there are ways to do this and ways not to do this. If you were to ask me to cease posting on your talk page, continuing to post because "I know I'm right" would neither win your respect nor convince you to consider my views. Raven4x4x (talk) 10:09, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- The point of Brad's comment is that he has no opinion except for what the mob says. As such, his views cannot be respected, as there are none. Belief is higher than the mob, and if we followed the mob, then we would have nothing worth while. Your whole statement about murder has nothing to do with belief, and it shows that you don't understand the definition. Please, look up what "belief" is in the dictionary. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:33, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- If you believe in what you say, then you wouldn't change your mind. If you change your mind, then you didn't believe in what you say. I have respect for the loyal opposition, but none for the cowardly ally. This is not about actions, but about beliefs. One should always pursue what they think is right, moral, and just. If not, then they shouldn't be doing anything at all. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:21, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- Ottava, are you suggesting that if I make a particular edit or series of edits, and a vast majority of other editors (including yourself perhaps) tell me to stop, that I should keep on doing it to avoid "showing weakness"? You have never hesitated in speaking out against those you believe have done the wrong thing, but now you seem to be saying that people should never change their minds or back down in the face of opposition. I may be misinterpreting you, but I am having difficulty in reconciling this opinion with your previous actions. Raven4x4x (talk) 00:04, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Ryulong
The proposed decision is up in the above case. It is located here. The proposed decision will be presented to the Arbitration Committee for voting on May 11.
For the Arbitration Committee. KnightLago (talk) 01:10, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Nicolò Giraud
That's what I get for having five different tabs open, all Misplaced Pages. :| Zazaban (talk) 02:42, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- I followed a link from the talk page Wikiproject:LGBT, and then thought I went to another tab. Clearly I didn't. I'm not sure what happened, I was trying to revert somewhere else, I don't actually remember where because, well, I had five tabs open :\ I have now cut it down to two to prevent this from happening again. Zazaban (talk) 02:48, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
GA/FA
I agree, and I will definitely enjoy working on them as a early summer project. I will send you an instant message soon and we can discuss a tentative time table. Mrathel (talk)
- Just to let you know, I will probably not be on much this weekend due to Mother's Day, but i will be back in action on Monday, and will probably IM you at that time to talk. I am pretty sure my library will be open throughout May, so I will probably ask for a list of your sources so I don't duplicate. If you have any in mind that you might not have yourself, feel free to make a request for anything you can find here . Mrathel (talk) 12:59, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the assist
Thanks for re-adding the comments to Everyking's RfA after that strange edit. Happy editing, Malinaccier (talk) 02:56, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- Sure thing. You happened to revert it while I was staring at disbelief trying to understand it. I was able to parse everything afterward, so it was a team effort. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 03:00, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Complaint on the Linguistics Problem
Hi, I've registered a complaint against the specific admins on the community page to 1. Jimmy Wales, 2. the Help Desk, 3. the Arbitration Committee. Do participate in this if you feel there's anything you wish to contribute to resolve this issue. Thanks, Supriya. 122.162.199.27 (talk) 16:21, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- Um, what? Ottava Rima (talk) 16:33, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- I saw that you were engaged in the debate on the talkpage some days ago, so I thought I'd ask you if you wish to participate further? 122.162.199.27 (talk) 16:43, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- It wasn't really a debate, and most agreed to allow in a small mention in the Semantics area. I didn't have anything specific in mind, I just wanted to make sure that people were willing to allow for some expansion. What you did was the inappropriate way of handling the situation. If you want them to adopt something onto the page, post a section saying what lines you want, where you want it, and how far you are willing to compromise on the language. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:04, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- I saw that you were engaged in the debate on the talkpage some days ago, so I thought I'd ask you if you wish to participate further? 122.162.199.27 (talk) 16:43, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
we hear
I think you have made your point here. Maybe be best just to let it run its course now? David D. (Talk) 19:30, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- Note, and that was before all the stuff on the talk page. David D. (Talk) 21:31, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Hipocrite has been an onwiki friend of Everyking and someone constantly attacking me for a long time. His oppose was never real. It was just a show. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:36, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- I have not followed your edits at all, so I can't comment on your relationship with hipocrite but there comes a time when too many contributions to an RfA tips the balance. I'd say you are close to it, if not past it. So far you have documented your concerns more than enough, as far as i can tell. Do you have anything fresh to contribute? If not, anything extra just becomes counter-productive. David D. (Talk) 21:47, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- The only real recent involvement I had on that page was based on Everyking's claims that defending the Catholic Church was hate speech in his answer to number 15. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:58, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- I have not followed your edits at all, so I can't comment on your relationship with hipocrite but there comes a time when too many contributions to an RfA tips the balance. I'd say you are close to it, if not past it. So far you have documented your concerns more than enough, as far as i can tell. Do you have anything fresh to contribute? If not, anything extra just becomes counter-productive. David D. (Talk) 21:47, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Hipocrite has been an onwiki friend of Everyking and someone constantly attacking me for a long time. His oppose was never real. It was just a show. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:36, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Note; also an onwiki friend of Everyking? David D. (Talk) 14:55, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Off2riorob agreed with me. Ameliorate! agreed with me. Those are the blatant ones. Then there are also the angry people who emailed me because of Everyking's and Rootology's attacks on the Catholic Church and calling it hate speech. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:58, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- You knew well that the RfA was not the forum for such a debate. And predictably this is now at AN/I. David D. (Talk) 16:31, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- I knew? Nice. You just rewrote everything. Everyking was the one that made it personal in question 15. That has cost him even more votes, as yet more have opposed because of it. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- All I'm saying is I could see where it was leading on the 9th May. You couldn't? And are you really trumpeting your behavior on that page as a success story? The answer to Q15 should stand as it is without your commentary. We can all read it. David D. (Talk) 16:41, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- I knew? Nice. You just rewrote everything. Everyking was the one that made it personal in question 15. That has cost him even more votes, as yet more have opposed because of it. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- You knew well that the RfA was not the forum for such a debate. And predictably this is now at AN/I. David D. (Talk) 16:31, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Off2riorob agreed with me. Ameliorate! agreed with me. Those are the blatant ones. Then there are also the angry people who emailed me because of Everyking's and Rootology's attacks on the Catholic Church and calling it hate speech. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:58, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
One last thing, and then I promise to shut up :) You can't blame everyking for answering the question. If he had initiated that point as a reprisal against your oppose, or in some other context designed as retribution, then I would consider it block worthy, but not in the current context, sorry. David D. (Talk) 16:58, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Lucy
Im thinking this should be remominated at FAC; it has vastly improved with Awadewit's and others input. Are you ok with this, and are you ok with being listed as co-nom. Ceoil (talk) 13:57, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- Fowler, Mattisse, and Bishonen had concerns. I am sure that Fowlers may have been met, but I would recommend asking Mattisse and Bishonen if they still had outstanding concerns. If you want to list me, that is fine. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:02, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- Will do. Thank you. Ceoil (talk) 16:30, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Clinton
Would you care to comment on the record at Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton/GA1. It seems to be a contested delisting. Other opinions are welcome.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry, but no. Last time I tried to get people to try and cut the Clinton page back to MoS appropriate size, they tried to ban me from Misplaced Pages. It is part of the greater political minefields of those who want to cram in every last detail to glorify their deity. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:31, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
FAR
Your comment is surprsing YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 01:48, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- They tend to have that effect, but which FAR? I couldn't find any that I posted in that were still open. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:01, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Mattisse
An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Mattisse/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Mattisse/Workshop.
On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, ] 08:26, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
FYI
I really wish you had left your own actions there buried, but you opened the door back to them to oppose EK. rootology (C)(T) 13:33, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Saying that defending a matter of faith when it comes to gay marriage in a manner that does nothing to classify homosexuality in any matter is not hate speech. The fact that Everyking would claim it is only verifies that he is incapable of being an admin. Analyze my actions there and people will see how horrible WR is. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well, we can debate that side of it here before it derails the RFA inappropriately. I'm a firm believer that even if someone thinks gays/blacks/whatever is the best/worst thing ever should have no standing here on adminship if they don't post to advocate a strong POV on-wiki. You can go and found "catholicshateyousinceyouarent.com" for all I care, if it never touches your editing.
- But all that aside, using the "no kids in marriage" thing is the silliest excuse our church has ever come up with to oppose. Did you see the pending NY law and the Connecticut laws? My legal people back home in CT nailed a home run and a half--the state grants same-sex marriage, but the church legally doesn't have to honor it. The perfect execution of separation of Church and State. Bob & John or Karen & Sharon can marry--and legally, no different than Bob & Karen. But--the church doesn't even have to acknowledge it; they're mutually exclusive if a particular church decides on it, and the church has legal immunity against suits involving that. What are your thoughts on Connecticut handling of it? I thought it was particularly genius myself. Everyone gets what they truly want--the government doesn't tell the Church what to do, and the Church, who has zero authority over those not of their flock (and even then, it's still subject to the flock itself) can't tell non-believers squat. rootology (C)(T) 15:58, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Marriage and sex being based for children only is one of the oldest standards of the Catholic Church and was rooted in reconciling Paul's comments about sex and marriage. The Church does not say homosexuality is evil, or having feelings is bad. What it says is that sex is -only- for procreation and marriage is only for procreation. To claim that this is gay bashing is ridiculous, and to claim that it is hate speech is ridiculous. Many Protestants say that homosexuals shouldn't marry because homosexuality is evil according to the Old Testament. That is quite different than the Church's stance. It is quite different from Phelps's stance. To classify defense of the Church's belief that marriage is about children as hate speech is utter ignorance.
- Now, the "separation of Church and State" does not exist. What exists is the 1st amendment line put in to support the Carrollton family (Catholics) and their right to be Catholics and have government positions. The rule was to allow people of all Christian sects and all religions to hold government positions without worrying about losing their rights to vote or speak as they did in Britain. This means only that the State cannot pass laws affecting religions, but the religious can put forth their views on morality.
- My feelings on Connecticut? To be honest, they are redefining a thousands of years old term in order to make a few people feel validated. To give a title that deals with the traditional family makeup in such a manner is linguistically demeaning. 1984 was all about people rewriting definitions to promote a view. It is only of the oldest political ways of deception. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- The major problem with all of this is that it presumes that Catholocism (or even Christianity) is the dominant religion of our times, or that religious morality can take the place of given legal rights. In our nation, affirmed again and again and again and again since throughout the 20th century and again now in the 21st, is that all citizens are entitled to the exact same rights and treatment by the government. Every single time when it ultimately comes push to shove, that anyone's rights in any way are minimized by the state relative to what everyone else has, the law is adjusted to equalize the situation. Short of us becoming a theocratic government--which would be 100% impossible under our Constitution--can you see any other way that this all ends under our laws beside all men and women having exactly identical rights? rootology (C)(T) 17:15, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Catholicism was the minority religion back when the 1st amendment was adopted. It was adopted to ensure that Catholics had a right to be involved in politics. Thus, I think your statement is backwards. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:18, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Sure, we were the minority in this country then. But you didn't answer my question. Under the laws and traditions and historical direction of this nation from the 20th century onwards--hell, even back to the abolition of slavery--can you see any other way that this all ends under our laws beside all men and women having exactly identical rights? rootology (C)(T) 17:20, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Our rights are defined in the Bill of Rights. Marriage is not a right. Marriage is a traditional agreement based upon consanguinity that was created in order to separate bastardization/illegitimacy from rightful legitimacy. It was created to protect the rights of the child and the mother from infidelities of the father. Those under 18 cannot marry without parental consent, first cousins or closer cannot marry, and people cannot marry non-humans. We also restrict voting which is a right given in the amendments to the Constitution, so your argument falls flat. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:24, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well, it was legally my right to own slaves once, so your entire argument on diverting the discussion into marriage not being a right falls flat right there. Blacks couldn't marry whites once, either. Did you know I also could have been heretical if I ate shellfish once, as well? Based on my faith, I predict in 2012 a black man will marry a white man deep in the heart of Texas, and as the shrimp cocktail is served at the reception, the polar gravitational tilt will occur, followed by Four Horseman riding out on Harley Davidson (since American bikes are better) motorcycles. ;)
- The times, they are a' changing. rootology (C)(T) 17:31, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- And homosexuals can marry those of the opposite sex, so their right to marry is not removed. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:25, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Uh... the church, if they had their way, would stop gays from marrying. My whole point is--and always has been--is that religious law and belief has zero place as state law in any form in our nation, and state law has no business telling religion what to do with their private business. rootology (C)(T) 17:31, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- No. The Catechism and Papal bulls on the matter are quite clear: if anyone wants to marry someone of the opposite sex and have sexual intercourse for children, then that is acceptable. If people want to have sexual intercourse for anything but reproduction, that is not acceptable. It has nothing to do with being "gay" or not, as everyone is under the same restriction. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:38, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- This still all presumes that the Vatican has preemptive authority over anything but the citizens of the Vatican State, and actual clergy.... rootology (C)(T) 17:42, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- The Vatican has authority over all Catholics and can deny communion to those who knowingly break the catechism. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:59, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Claimed authority; the Catholic church has many factions, sects, and groups. We Catholics are also not the singular Christian nor religious authority on this planet. rootology (C)(T) 18:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- You can claim yourself as Catholic all you want, but you are heretical if you do not acknowledge the leadership of the Pope and fail to follow the Catechism. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:07, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Claimed authority; the Catholic church has many factions, sects, and groups. We Catholics are also not the singular Christian nor religious authority on this planet. rootology (C)(T) 18:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- The Vatican has authority over all Catholics and can deny communion to those who knowingly break the catechism. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:59, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- This still all presumes that the Vatican has preemptive authority over anything but the citizens of the Vatican State, and actual clergy.... rootology (C)(T) 17:42, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- No. The Catechism and Papal bulls on the matter are quite clear: if anyone wants to marry someone of the opposite sex and have sexual intercourse for children, then that is acceptable. If people want to have sexual intercourse for anything but reproduction, that is not acceptable. It has nothing to do with being "gay" or not, as everyone is under the same restriction. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:38, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Uh... the church, if they had their way, would stop gays from marrying. My whole point is--and always has been--is that religious law and belief has zero place as state law in any form in our nation, and state law has no business telling religion what to do with their private business. rootology (C)(T) 17:31, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Our rights are defined in the Bill of Rights. Marriage is not a right. Marriage is a traditional agreement based upon consanguinity that was created in order to separate bastardization/illegitimacy from rightful legitimacy. It was created to protect the rights of the child and the mother from infidelities of the father. Those under 18 cannot marry without parental consent, first cousins or closer cannot marry, and people cannot marry non-humans. We also restrict voting which is a right given in the amendments to the Constitution, so your argument falls flat. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:24, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Sure, we were the minority in this country then. But you didn't answer my question. Under the laws and traditions and historical direction of this nation from the 20th century onwards--hell, even back to the abolition of slavery--can you see any other way that this all ends under our laws beside all men and women having exactly identical rights? rootology (C)(T) 17:20, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Catholicism was the minority religion back when the 1st amendment was adopted. It was adopted to ensure that Catholics had a right to be involved in politics. Thus, I think your statement is backwards. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:18, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- The major problem with all of this is that it presumes that Catholocism (or even Christianity) is the dominant religion of our times, or that religious morality can take the place of given legal rights. In our nation, affirmed again and again and again and again since throughout the 20th century and again now in the 21st, is that all citizens are entitled to the exact same rights and treatment by the government. Every single time when it ultimately comes push to shove, that anyone's rights in any way are minimized by the state relative to what everyone else has, the law is adjusted to equalize the situation. Short of us becoming a theocratic government--which would be 100% impossible under our Constitution--can you see any other way that this all ends under our laws beside all men and women having exactly identical rights? rootology (C)(T) 17:15, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
As a side note, I'm going to make a prediction. As each state in turn adopts same-sex civil marriage as legal--NH already did but it isn't live yet; NY I think will pass--even many Republicans are now publically on their fence, since their constituents want it; and Rhode Island is so liberal I'm surprised they haven't done it yet--the whole of the Northeast beside New Jersey will be legalized. NJ is pretty lefty, as well, so they will be next. PA after. The question will be, afterwards, is what happens when other states start to adopt it--or the exact opposite. When a state next tries a legislative or executive approach to ban it, mark my words: it will be heading for the Supreme Court at last. rootology (C)(T) 17:31, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- I think you are forgetting that many states voted a ban into their constitution. The Supreme Court will just remove the ruling from lower courts as marriage is not a Constitution specified right. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:36, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Nick
Good job, I think we can improve it further, will have more to say when I get my MacCarthy back. Haiduc (talk) 03:08, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- There was one critic mentioned on the talk page but was not listed at the bottom. I don't remember the name, but it came up when you mentioned the Nicolas naming. Perhaps you could track that critic down too? I haven't had any luck. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:12, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Milton
I have been through John Milton once more. There are still a few rough patches, I suppose, but I think the overall impression is good. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:53, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Notice
Consider this a warning. You will not attack myself and other users, and you will take it to ANI or stop. Do you understand? Your obnoxious poisoning of the well needs to stop, since you're already on this ice. Take it DR on ANI before you post another attack, or you'll be brought to ANI rootology (C)(T) 15:16, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Warning? You can't warn people, you are one of the ones making hateful comments. You compared the Catholic Church to the KKK. You attack people and are being incivil. Yes, you should be blocked. And look at my block log. I haven't been blocked for a very long time, so you think you can threaten me while promoting hate and lies like that? That is really sad. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:24, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Please take it to ANI if you intend to continue doing this, or else the next time you do this, I will. rootology (C)(T) 15:26, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Take it to ANI then. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:29, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Please take it to ANI if you intend to continue doing this, or else the next time you do this, I will. rootology (C)(T) 15:26, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Pending further discussion and decision on this, consider yourself banned from posting on Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Everyking 5. Step away from the horse, its just bones now, and try to disengage elsewhere. Limit this to the ANI thread. thanks much - KillerChihuahua 16:03, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Don't make me say "Dude!"... you know where that leads, right? --SB_Johnny | 16:25, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- LOL. Why aren't you on IRC lately? Wikiversity too quiet lately to bother? Ottava Rima (talk) 16:27, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'm, uh, on sabbatical :-). Seriously though, I was starting to feel like a drama magnet so I'm taking a year off. Also busy in RL, and wanted to focus on WP and commons for a while. Not ircing much for the same reason... need to cut back on online distractions!
- Seriously though, you really should chill for a bit on the RfA related thing you've gotten yourself into, young mentored :-). --SB_Johnny | 16:51, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- I've been editing RfAs for a long time. However, I like how someone is able to attack someone's religion and people are okay with Misplaced Pages being used for it. Great stuff. Notice how I am also called one practicing hate speech and homophobic, yet I'm the only one there that works with the LGBT project, improves LGBT related pages, and even rescued one from AfD and improved it to GA level. Great stuff. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:53, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well, like Rootology said: if you feel you're being subjected to personal attacks, bring it to AN/I, rather than responding in kind or bossing people around (again, don't make me say the D word, eh?). --SB_Johnny | 16:57, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- I've been editing RfAs for a long time. However, I like how someone is able to attack someone's religion and people are okay with Misplaced Pages being used for it. Great stuff. Notice how I am also called one practicing hate speech and homophobic, yet I'm the only one there that works with the LGBT project, improves LGBT related pages, and even rescued one from AfD and improved it to GA level. Great stuff. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:53, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Are you addressing me, Johnny? KillerChihuahua 16:43, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Nope. I can explain the reference via email if you like (Wikiversity thing). --SB_Johnny | 16:51, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Nope, no worries. Just wanted to ensure I wasn't ignoring a post to me, however confused I was by it. :-) KillerChihuahua 17:03, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- I now see how your archived talk pages get so numerous:) I am not really Catholic, and I was really more vested in quelling the arbitrary use of labels for religious groups, but I think the next best thing to getting an appology for being called a hater is to rack up a few GA's and FA's on Keats's odes. Maybe we can throw in a Ginsberg poem for good measure:) Oh, and I have been plucking away at Elizabeth Barrett Browning for a little bit; a brief rewrite of the publication section might make for an easy upgrade. I am planning on devoting Thursday evening to some good pushes. Mrathel (talk) 18:36, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'm studying French translation right now (translating Boileau) for a post-graduate level proficiency that I need to retake for whatever reason. Bah! After Thursday I can concentrate on multiple topics. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:39, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Je comprends. Bon courage! Mrathel (talk) 18:43, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well, French will be the hardest. Spanish will be the easiest. Latin will be... interesting. I hope I don't have to take a fourth language. Never specialize in multiple fields and try to do the work simultaneously. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:46, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Je comprends. Bon courage! Mrathel (talk) 18:43, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Hahaha, I can only imagine; I took Latin in elementry school, and now when I try to read Horace, I do it with a French accent. Mrathel (talk) 18:52, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- LOL. That reminded me of an old mentor of mind talking about a conference in which there was this German scholar talking about Horace and reading it in Latin. When some young person in the crowd asked why he didn't translate, the German scholar said something like (in a heavy German accent) "Translate Horace? Why would anyone need to translate Horace? Horace is easy". Now, I don't know what the original accent sounded like, but the fake German accent of the Latin and the quote above was quite delightful. On another note, I learned Church Latin from an Irishman with a thick accent. I'm unable to speech Latin properly to this day. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 18:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'm studying French translation right now (translating Boileau) for a post-graduate level proficiency that I need to retake for whatever reason. Bah! After Thursday I can concentrate on multiple topics. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:39, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
AN/I notice
Your edits are being discussed here. Please note my comment in the section. I am going to block you should you take any further part in the RfA. Ryan Postlethwaite 22:01, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- I opposed the Everyking RFA and I am going to strongly advise you to stay off that page, leave EK alone, and let the issues be resolved with a whole lot less drama, please. If you don't take this advice, just letting you know, I will support Ryan's block. Jonathunder (talk) 22:12, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Ryan's block for what? Reverting an edit that inappropriately discusses a situation that was closed without support KC's stance? Or putting forth something that supports KC's lack of process edits and actions? Or how about having a comment by Xeno that is prejudicial, inappropriate, and discusses KC's acting in an manner that she does not have authority to act in? Ottava Rima (talk) 22:14, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- If their edits on that RfA were that inappropriate, the crats and other contributors can take care of it. Your views on Everyking's RFA have been more than sufficiently clear. The main reason I opposed Everyking is because, though he can be a good editor, I saw too many situations where he could not view something in proper proportion or simply stay away from drama. You are doing the same thing now, and it isn't helpful to the project. So, let's both go do something else, OK? Jonathunder (talk) 22:42, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Ryan's block for what? Reverting an edit that inappropriately discusses a situation that was closed without support KC's stance? Or putting forth something that supports KC's lack of process edits and actions? Or how about having a comment by Xeno that is prejudicial, inappropriate, and discusses KC's acting in an manner that she does not have authority to act in? Ottava Rima (talk) 22:14, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- As Moni points out, they are a BLP violation. Many people have already expressed their outrage at the comments. The fact that no one will remove them or block Everyking for making them is a disturbing lack of appropriate action. Rootology even compared me to Phelps, the guy that says "God hates fags" and attacks people all the time. The same guy that attacked the Catholic Church multiple times. A guy I spent many years refuting. And yet both Everyking and Rootology are allowed to use Misplaced Pages as a platform of hate. That is inappropriate. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:45, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'm sure you've heard the proverb that sometimes it is better to let someone else defend your reputation. As for myself, I'm off to photograph an interesting historic bridge while the sun is still on it. I hope you can find something other than this to do, too. Regards. Jonathunder (talk) 22:51, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- As Moni points out, they are a BLP violation. Many people have already expressed their outrage at the comments. The fact that no one will remove them or block Everyking for making them is a disturbing lack of appropriate action. Rootology even compared me to Phelps, the guy that says "God hates fags" and attacks people all the time. The same guy that attacked the Catholic Church multiple times. A guy I spent many years refuting. And yet both Everyking and Rootology are allowed to use Misplaced Pages as a platform of hate. That is inappropriate. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:45, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
← Ottava, you've offered me advice often enough in the past, so I hope you won't mind if I return the favour. I've got absolutely no doubt that Ryan's finger is hovering over the block button even as we speak, but please don't give him the satisfaction of clicking it. I agree with you that Everyking's characterisation of your comments as "hate speak" was despicable and unsupported by the facts, and that it should have been stamped on, but it wasn't. Leave Everyking's RfA to fail, as it fully deserves to, and let him reflect on the wisdom of making similar remarks in the future. Your work is done. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:56, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'm in communication with a few Arbitrators right now. Having both Ryan and KC ignore the major personal attacks by Everyking and Rootology is completely unacceptable. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Again, you can't blame everyking for answering the question. If he had initiated that point as a reprisal against your oppose, or in some other context designed as retribution, then I would consider it block worthy, but not in the current context, sorry. Further, I was already warning you to back off before he even answered q15 so as far as I see it you are just trying to escalate this whole thing. How is that NOT disruption? David D. (Talk) 23:18, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Really? You can't? He could have said that he "got me banned at WR". Or we "fought at WR". Instead, he claimed that I practiced hate speech. That is a severe violation. If refuting a major attack like that against my character is inappropriate, then people no longer care about our time honored traditions and standards here. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:21, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- One it was at a different site. Two, no one said you could not refute it. But you have taken it to many different pages and have not stopped. Will not stop. That is disruption. As I said before, you have to know when to step back. David D. (Talk) 23:30, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- No, he didn't. He said that on WR he had thought some of your posts, there, were in the category of hate speech. He didn't quote you, he didn't say whether he still thought that. He answered the question with history - past history between you two. You are acting like it was a current charge. It was not. KillerChihuahua 23:25, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- He accused me of practicing hate speech (doesn't matter where) in an entry on Misplaced Pages. That is a BLP violation, as BLP carries onto talk pages and about living individuals. Any mention of that is a problem. Since hate speech is a major law, it is the equivalent of saying I think you practice stealing or I think you practice rape. Laws are laws, and they are not to be used in accusatory fashion regardless of if they are hidden behind "thought" or "feeling". The comment does not belong in any fashion on Misplaced Pages and was only there to damage my reputation. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:29, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- No he answered the question. One that was asked because you would not stop going on about WR. He never directed any comment at you. David D. (Talk) 23:31, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- He accused me of practicing hate speech (doesn't matter where) in an entry on Misplaced Pages. That is a BLP violation, as BLP carries onto talk pages and about living individuals. Any mention of that is a problem. Since hate speech is a major law, it is the equivalent of saying I think you practice stealing or I think you practice rape. Laws are laws, and they are not to be used in accusatory fashion regardless of if they are hidden behind "thought" or "feeling". The comment does not belong in any fashion on Misplaced Pages and was only there to damage my reputation. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:29, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- People aren't thinking clearly here. Using the term "hate speech" was clearly inflammatory, but wikipedia uses the term "disruption" basically as a device to silence unpopular editors. As I said earlier, don't give Ryan the satisfaction; Everyking is paying the price for his indiscretion without you having to say another word in your defence. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:28, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- "Everyking is paying the price for his indiscretion without you having to say another word"; exactly, but try and tell that to OR. I tried to point out that he was in fact undermining his credibility but he will not stop. David D. (Talk) 23:33, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- EK was just answering a question about what happened. It seems OR brought it on himself really, he was well aware of what EK thought at the time, an if he hadn't trolled the RfA to such an absurd extent, no one would ever have asked what happened. the wub "?!" 23:38, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- He did not answer what happened. He said it was "hate speech". That characterization is an attempt to diminish my reputation with an untruth. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:41, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- It appears to have been EK who made the original allegation of "hate speech", and who chose his own RfA to repeat that claim. Hardly a demonstration of good judgement on his part. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:42, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- So, in retrospect, maybe the savvy move would have been to rebut and leave it at that, right? RfA over, no arguments. Its not rocket science, as they say. David D. (Talk) 23:44, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- It appears to have been EK who made the original allegation of "hate speech", and who chose his own RfA to repeat that claim. Hardly a demonstration of good judgement on his part. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:42, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- I've gotten a lot of angry emails from people involved in the RCC page that see this as just the condoning of the same action. Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be a battleground so Catholics shouldn't be forced into a corner this way, attacked, accused of being hate mongerers, and just treated like crap. We have CIVIL, NPA, BLP, etc, to protect people and yet people are turning a blind eye. I protected KillerChihuahua from people at Misplaced Pages Review since September. I deleted posts. I banned IPs and random users. I even defended her on Misplaced Pages Review. And the thanks I get? As I told her in email, she made it clear that she doesn't care what kinds of attacks come from those on Misplaced Pages Review, so I wont care either. I guess Wikiversity can become a platform for hate against her again. That's the way the Wiki burns, no? Ottava Rima (talk) 23:34, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- You started the fight, as far as I see it. And now you won't stop it. Please stop trying to frame this as a religious dispute, that is a red herring. My first comment to you regarding the rfa was on May 9th. David D. (Talk) 23:39, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- OR, what you have done or not done for me on any site has nothing to do with what you are doing now. I'm not sure what you're talking about, I have not received an email from you about this. KillerChihuahua 23:41, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Ok, the email just came in. What is this, petty vengeance, retribution? OR, I cannot block someone because you want me to. I see no personal attack. I am sorry this disappoints you, but I would prefer you realize I am doing my best, and that you are placing me in an impossible position when you expect me to support your disruption. I am sorry if you feel you need to retaliate. KillerChihuahua 23:50, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- KC, I blocked people making the same comments in regards to you from Misplaced Pages Review. I remember you complaining about them. I could have blocked you at Wikiversity many times for the same things as you characterize as disruption. Instead, I knew that those at Misplaced Pages Review did it because they want to cause problems within Wikiversity. So, we looked beyond it and blocked the real trouble makers. But since you made it clear that you think such actions are inappropriate, I wont be performing them at Wikiversity. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:53, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Ok, the email just came in. What is this, petty vengeance, retribution? OR, I cannot block someone because you want me to. I see no personal attack. I am sorry this disappoints you, but I would prefer you realize I am doing my best, and that you are placing me in an impossible position when you expect me to support your disruption. I am sorry if you feel you need to retaliate. KillerChihuahua 23:50, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Per my note below - anyone who I find continuing to aggrivate this disruption by taunting or abusing Ottava here on his talk page will be blocked without further warning. Find something better to do tonight. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:45, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Disruption - Please stop now - final warning
- Ottava - I believe that you may be right that you may have been provoked on these points. However, your response has pushed past reasonable boundaries of proactive into the relm of active disruption.
- Someone else having provoked you is not a license to go around causing problems on Misplaced Pages.
- Though I have some sympathy for your situation, this has to stop. You've made your point. Further disruptive activity will result in a block. You are welcome to file an Arbcom case about the abuses, or a user conduct RFC. Those both may be appropriate at this time. However, you need to stop.
- Please find a way to de-escalate this. I understand that you feel attacked and want very badly to respond to that. But the situation has become unreasonable.
- This is not a judgement on who is at fault or degree of provocation. I will be following up on those points elsewhere. But at this point the focus of the current problem is your behavior responding to the provocations.
- Please take a short break, and if you still feel this upset tomorrow, write up a Request for Arbitration and follow it up there.
- Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:43, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- As I stated before, all I wanted was the descriptive "hate speech" removed. I can deal with Rootology's attacks on my talk page and on the RfA talk page, but the attacks in the answer are inappropriate. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:50, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Note - I wont be responding to the ANI thread anymore. If any Arbitrators want access to some of the emails I've received on the matter from people who are upset, I will ask permission to forward. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:54, 12 May 2009 (UTC)