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Archives

/Archive 1

Mediation

OK, I see you are both happy for me to mediate. One question before we start, as I don't like making assumptions. Is there just the one IP editor involved in the discussion? Kevin (talk) 23:15, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes.--68.251.184.4 (talk) 01:24, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

OK. We can get started then. I'm going to archive this page first for ease of editing. Any useful discussion can be brought back out.

1. Agree to mediation as a method for resolving this dispute  Done
2. Elicit participation from other users  Done
3. Agree on the process  Done
4. Set behavioral conditions for participation  Done
5. Set a common goal - working on this now
6. Make a plan for how to get to that goal (the next 4 points could be that plan)
7. Agree on the policies that are relevant to this article
8. Draw up a rough article outline (maybe just section headings and what relative size they should be)
9. Work through sections one by one using the common goal as a yardstick to check against
10. Repeat until finished

Discussion on the process

This is my suggested means of reaching a resolution. Make changes as you see fit until we're all happy. Kevin (talk) 02:04, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

1. 1. Elicit participation from other users
   2. Set behavioral conditions for participation
   3. Set a common goal
   4. Make a plan for how to get to that goal (the next 4 points could be that plan)
   5. Agree on the policies that are relevant to this article
   6. Draw up a rough article outline (maybe just section headings and what relative size they should be)
   7. Work through sections one by one using the common goal as a yardstick to check against
   8. Repeat until finished

I thought we could make it clear that this should be done in a reasonably step-by-step manner, and that it also might make sense to solicit input from other editors as well to arrive at a better conclusion and to try to avoid a back-and-forth.--68.251.184.4 (talk) 02:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely. I suspect others may be less interested in turning up until step 5, but feel free to invite anyone. Kevin (talk) 02:14, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Solicit input from editors outside of the dispute? I disagree. I believe all users involved in the mediation must have an edit history or be an administrator/requested neutral opinion (by mediator)/editors who belong to related boards. But allowing opinions from random users would likely turn this into a POV match up, especially when most of them don't know the lengthy history behind this dispute. Wikifan12345 (talk) 02:15, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Kevin - a fair warning. The above IP, as well as the other 72 IP, have been involved in prior disputes with me. I would hate to see "friendly" users endorsing x side solely based on their POV or collective agreement on other articles. This is very common in controversial Israel/Palestinian/Middle Eastern articles. Therefore, I believe involvement of "invited" users would influence the integrity of the mediation. Wikifan12345 (talk) 02:21, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Edit: If editors were to be invited, I believe Kevin should be the one to submit requests. We as disputing editors should not be allowed to ask for opinions from friendly users. Wikifan12345 (talk) 02:23, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I'll keep an eye on any excessive POV problems, and will deal with them as required. At this point the history of the dispute is less important that getting the content right, and so long as they are neutral other editors could be quite helpful. User:NPguy and User:Nathan have been involved here, and may have useful opinions. Kevin (talk) 02:25, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I've invited the 2 editors I noted. I don't see many others who have been involved here recently. If we reach any points where agreement cannot be reached, other opinions can be sought as needed. Kevin (talk) 02:29, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

There opinion might be useful but there involvement was minor. I don't think Nathan even edited the article. edit: And Nathan sided with the IP, though I might have to look at the discussion archive. I sent you a message, I think it is important. Wikifan12345 (talk) 02:41, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Every editor's opinion is important, and we should not be resistant to those who might help. Everyone is going to take a side at some point, so I don;t see that as a particular problem. It is important that we focus on the content (when we reach that point). Kevin (talk) 02:45, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

That's fine but I don't want to see users aside from yourself eliciting friendly editors to opinion stack. We can't be naive, there is a mountain of evidence that supports similar incidents on wikipedia. Wikifan12345 (talk) 03:27, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Any thoughts on the rest of the process? Kevin (talk) 03:37, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Rd232 was also involved in a fair amount of the previous discussion, but I suppose someone else can invite him if they want.--99.162.60.191 (talk) 15:10, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I was invited to join this process. I don't expect to be heavily involved, but may chime in occasionally. NPguy (talk) 06:38, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Anyways, I was happy with the rest of the process for resolution if everyone else was.--99.162.60.191 (talk) 15:23, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

An outline of the problems I've identified:

• There is a statement in the archives that ElBaradei's earlier terms need expanded coverage, and no one disagreed.
• Everyone seems to agree that "Criticism of..." sections are substandard and should be avoided.
• We argued over a POV tag, held an RfC, and the consensus of the RfC was clearly that a POV tag was inappropriate in the abscence of a specific POV problem. I realize that Wikifan disagrees with this outcome.
• There has been discussion about the editing history of the article and other conduct. I think we should leave this stuff behind - we should avoid assigning blame or throwing accusations unless it becomes absolutely necessary, and to me it seems like we are still at the point where dispensing with that for now might allow a consensus form of the article to emerge.

In terms of core problems, what am I missing? Nathan 21:55, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I'll be brief:

• Fix the over-dependence on extremely unreliable sources.
• Reduce balancing criticisms with non-notable figures.
• End excluding RS while merging questionable sources to support facts (this is a major issue and could potentially lead to a libel accusation.)
• Reduction of IAEA/Me general mantra to counter specific claims. I.e, x says x about ME. Countered with a general opinion from ME. Unless ME responds directly, we can't continue to couch in general responses. We could potentially counter every accusation with a statement made by ME years before or years after.
• Reduce awards section. No BLP has such a lengthy award section. Nobel is fine, a little mention on the honorary degrees, but everything else is non-notable. Some BLPs have hundreds of awards, but we don't include all of them. And like I said before, the awards were a direct copy and paste from the IAEA. Even in the same order.
• Re-organize sections. Axe "first term, second term, third term etc.."
• Edit according to strict Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons standards, specifically the three core principals: Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, and Misplaced Pages:No original research. Those should be the first pages we go to during disputes. No more "I don't like." A POV consensus cannot replace basic BLP laws.

That's all for now. Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:37, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

That all sounds reasonable as far as it goes. I did see you and the IPer discussing the sourcing issue; personally, I would exclude both Xinhua and VoA and severely limit any use of opinion columns (op-ed is sort of a NY Times-specific phrase that refers to a position in the physical paper, interesting fact). Xinhua and VoA are mouthpieces - intended to present the government view of the world. While the BBC is government sponsored, it differs from the other two in that the editorial control is independent - more analogous to NPR, really. I try not to rely on opinion columns because they present the imprimatur of an organization known as a reliable source but typically undergo only the most basic fact-checking (dates, names, events). In other forums there have been many discussions on sources that are reliable for some purposes but not as reliable for others; newspapers are a case on point, because the scrutiny on reporting (which has the reputation of the paper behind it) is much, much greater than that for opinions. Nathan 22:56, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Editorials from reliable sources are valuable in BLPs. There is no rule endorsing the idea that they should be excluded. I understand the resistance since there is a mountain of not-so-pleasant criticisms, but we can't simply exclude them because of that. Xinhua isn't just a mouth piece, it's communist propaganda. Period. VoA isn't in the same league, but again its reliability is questionable because it is financed and run by the US government. BBC is subsidized by the British government but not administrated by it (supposedly.) Whatever factual inaccuracies notable journalists make in editorials is totally and completely irrelevant. Just like an inaccuracy or disputed evidence from ME, Rice, George Bush, Osama Bin Laden, we can include it if it comes from a reliable source. We of course quote in the context that it is x person's commentary, and not "this are the facts, says x." ME is a controversial figure. Similar BLPS: Richard A. Falk and Alan Dershowitz both include editorial references. Plus, the claim of reliability ultimately rested on a users "opinion" of the editorial, and not actually wiki policy. However, the real problem is the complete and total omission of notable facts. 4 paragraphs on IAEA spin and ME pimping is not particularly notable. Coverage on Israel, Iran, and especially the United States must be merged, and should be the primary focus. We need information prior to 2007, barely anything has happened since then. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:25, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

There were plenty of other sources which reported the same thing as Xinhua and Voice of America, so I think it would be very easy to just change where the ref tags point to while leaving the verifiable content the same. I believe the inclusion of the op-eds is different, specifically when the op-ed contains basic mistakes within it and has claims which aren't repeated in any other reliable sources. Are we to the point of discussing problems with the article yet? I was thinking we should identify some basic guidelines first.--99.162.60.191 (talk) 17:53, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

No there weren't. Notice the previous versions, very few paragraphs sentences had more than one source. I can post the diff if you like. I've directed you to several similar BLPs that rely on editorials for commentary. All are from reliable sources, mostly The New York Times. Whether you identify "mistakes" is again, totally, 100%, completely, absolutely irrelevant. Unless they are totally erroneous, like ME is a Mormon from China who works for the Central Intelligence Agency, we can include it, especially if it's from a reliable source. Seeing as how the article relied on unreliable sources so disturbingly before, I think at this point any claim against excluding reliable sources shouldn't be taken very seriously. Kevin said to focus on the article rather than the individual, but I have to post this. Here you couch in a totally unreliable source by a non-notable Iranian doctor: for commentary. Why do you demand we axe Jpost/NY but allow silly books from Iranian doctors? I'm sorry if you don't like the criticism, I've seen your edits and I know how you want the article. That is fine, I'm willing to collaborate. But Jpost, NY, CNN, any site with editorials all fall under basic BLP guidelines. I've identified 3. I can post more BLPs that have editorials, some with mistakes (oh noes!). Can we get to the article now? Wikifan12345 (talk) 19:53, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I was pointing out that there are plenty of other sources which do contain the exact same material, and that the statements are not subjective assertions but verifiable statements of fact.--99.162.60.191 (talk) 16:23, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

If we are agreed on the next steps, then setting behavioral conditions is next, then set a common goal. Are we agreed enough on the process to move on? Kevin (talk) 00:18, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

What are we agreeing on? Several of us have identified problems as you requested, but a consensus has not been reached. I'm just not familiar with the process so pardon my ignorance. ; D Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:15, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

What I wanted to get sorted out first was a plan for how we will resolve the dispute, rather than how we will fix the article. I know it seems slow and you want to get to the article, but I have a reason for doing this. For weeks you have been disagreeing on virtually everything, and I want to get you working on something collaboratively before getting to the details of the article, where the real differences lie. What I want to agree on next is the numbered plan above. Kevin (talk) 21:23, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Here's a problem I've identified. The organization of the article around ElBaradei's three terms is artificial. Better to organize around prominent issues, in a more or less chronological sequence:

• Iraq
• North Korea
• Iran
• Libya (maybe)
• Multilateral Control of the Fuel Cycle
• Nuclear Disarmament (maybe)

Some have suggested adding Israel and Pakistan to the list. I don't see a significant functional role for ElB in those countries. NPguy (talk) 21:14, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

good list. I think Israel could be merged with Iran. ME made an attempt to categorize the state with Iran's nuclear program. There was never an investigation, but it did get a significant amount of media coverage. Currently the IP has reported me for personal attacks or something, here. This is a serious hindrance to the mediation process. We all agreed previous disputes would not be brought up (I could have just as well posted an incident report for the IP). Anyone who has an opinion feel free to add. :D Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:44, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Getting back on track

To get back on track, I would like you both to either suggest changes to the numbered steps above, or tell me you are happy and we can move on. All this discussion on the content is useful, but premature. I am as keen as you all to get to the article, but am a firm believer in having a plan of action first. Kevin (talk) 22:50, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

At this point I more concerned about a potential block because of the noticeboard report filed by the IP. If and when that is cleared up, then the mediation should continue. Since you are leading the mediation perhaps you could suggest a speedy close at the noticeboard? It could take over a week before a decision is made. I don't want to get blocked mid-discussion here. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:15, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

No-one is going to block you as a result of that discussion. I can probably close have closed the discussion there. Kevin (talk) 23:27, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok thanks. Shall we proceed? Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:43, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes please. Kevin (talk) 00:51, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm happy with the list above..--99.162.60.191 (talk) 03:01, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

OK. I'll amend the list at the very top and start the next section. Kevin (talk) 03:35, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I have no objection to any of the proposed rules/goals. Ultimately the goal is to have a better article, but I agree that the immediate goal is to get out of the rut of having extended arguments over its content. NPguy (talk) 21:06, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Behavior during mediation

1. Refrain from commenting on other's motives, biases etc.
2. Avoid characterizations of arguments made by others (i.e. "XYZ's opinion is ridiculous")
3. Leave the past behind. Nothing good can come from dredging up history we are all aware of.
4. Make a good faith attempt to understand the positions of others.

We've probably dealt with most of this anyway, but this is my view. Please add or edit as required. Kevin (talk) 03:35, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

This looks good to me.--99.162.60.191 (talk) 12:57, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure about leaving the past behind. Obviously rehashing past arguments is unproductive, but if the arguments were about something, we should perhaps crystallize that something rather than exclude it from discussion. NPguy (talk) 21:08, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I should clarify, I'm not talking about useful content discussions, just the "he said this in March" kind of thing. Kevin (talk) 22:17, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

OK. Now what? NPguy (talk) 20:13, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

As soon as Wikifan12345 says he is happy with these guidelines we can move on. Kevin (talk) 21:26, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes I agree with the terms. Can we extend the lock? Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:50, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I've extended for a month. Kevin (talk) 23:04, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Setting a common goal

I'd like some input from the parties here before I make any suggestions here. Kevin (talk) 23:05, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Substantively, I'd like to see the article become more

• balanced, with a focus on factual narrative but a minor admixture of favorable and unfavorable commentary.
• historically representative, addressing the key issues ElBaradei was actively involved in, e.g.:
  • Iraq
  • Iran
  • Libya
  • Multilateral Nuclear Arrangements for control of the nuclear fuel cycle
  • Nuclear nonproliferation and disarmament

Procedurally, I'd like to see flexibility from editors, particularly on the selection of sources of commentary. NPguy (talk) 21:47, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Flexible is relative. If commentaries fall under BLP guidelines, such as verifiability and reliable sources, they should be included. Only when commentary is redundant, encourages undue weight, and/or not notable should we consider exclusion. I think rules-of-editing need to be established pronto. Major edits and deletions should be preceded by collaborative discussion that follows strict BLP rules.

E.g: Opinion/personal POV < guidelines. Not sure how important MNA and NND is. This article is about ME. Wikifan12345 (talk) 01:35, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Can you guys see a way to word this goal as a single sentence (or two), remembering that the ultimate goal is to serve our readers? Kevin (talk) 03:03, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

How about: To have a historically representative and balanced biography of ElBaradei which is in line with Misplaced Pages content policies and guidelines.--99.162.60.191 (talk) 12:11, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, historically representative and balanced biography that is dependent on reliable sources and is edited according to the 3 core principals of BLP. Period. "Balance" can be debated and argued forever, which is why wikipedia policies exist - to serve as a reminder about what should be in the article and how it should be written. Hopefully we all agree on this. Wikifan12345 (talk) 14:01, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I think there are 3 core policies of Misplaced Pages, not specifically of BLP. And there are clearly varying opinions of what a reliable source is, but again I think this process should help with that.--99.162.60.191 (talk) 23:32, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Uh? Reliable sources cannot be debated. Tehran Times and phony Iranian doctors are not reliable sources. Here is a common issue: Editing has become personalized. Disputes have boiled down to "in my opinion," "I think," "I believe" etc..etc..rather than focusing on core BLP laws. As stated by Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons, the three core guidelines are: Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, and Misplaced Pages:No original research. Most important clause:

I'm not targeting you or attacking you or alienating you. I'm simply providing required reading. To say "there are clearly varying opinions of what a reliable source is" demonstrates a lack of understanding of not only BLP guidelines, but wikipedia rules in general. This is simple simple stuff. Once users get this then we can move on to actually editing. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:46, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

First of all, I didn't say you were attacking me. Secondly, if you were trying to get semantical about it they are actually policies of Misplaced Pages in general, not guidelines specific to BLP individually or "BLP laws". In fact, these standards are even stronger for BLP. On what basis do you assert that Dr. Kaveh L Afrasiabi is a "phony Iranian doctor"? That would sound like an "opinion" which you deride, and as far as I can tell your opinion is rather unsubstantiated.--99.162.60.191 (talk) 23:57, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with semantics. Balancing reliable sources with a non-notable book written by a non-notable (and likely phony) doctor is not appropriate for wikipedia, and certainly not BLPs. If we can't get beyond this, I don't see how we can continue. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:40, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I wish you would clarify your phony doctor statement.--99.162.60.191 (talk) 01:16, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

We need to wheel in the rhetoric a bit here. As for a goal, it is a given that we will comply with WP:BLP, WP:NPOV, WP:RS and WP:V, so they need not be mentioned at this stage. Kevin (talk) 01:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

So how about "To have a historically representative and balanced biography of ElBaradei". To further the discussion, maybe just modify the wording or make counterproposal(s) without providing reasoning.--99.162.60.191 (talk) 01:37, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, cause the current version is a totally balanced and representative biography of Elbaradei. ;D Yes, we do need to wheel in the rhetoric. But there should be an understanding the propaganda news services are not reliable sources and cannot be used in any articles (with a couple exceptions), and this is doubly so for BLPs. Users must take responsibility for their edits (perhaps that should be a goal). Wikifan12345 (talk) 03:23, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Your sarcasm here is not helping fix the article. At this point we are not discussing sources or content; what I want from the two of you is a common goal, that you wrote yourselves. If you can collaborate on one or two sentences now, the rest will be much easier. Kevin (talk) 03:58, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

My comment was in jest. A reasonable response to an unreasonable view of BLP guidelines. I wrote a common goal (copy and paste BLP guidelines), IP disagrees. What's next? Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:03, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I think jest is not a good method of holding a debate after the previous animosity. It is much too easy to take the wrong way. I've also asked, and you have agreed, not to characterize the view and opinions of others. Please be careful to avoid such characterizations in future. As for what is next, discuss amongst yourselves which parts of the proposed goals you like, which you dislike and see if a common position can be found. Kevin (talk) 04:42, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

this isn't a matter about views and opinions. I'm not attacking the IP's "character." I'm not attacking anything. If we can't recognize failure to appreciate basic rules out of fear of offending then I don't know what to say. My "proposal" was more or less based on basic guidelines. There was no, "I think", "I believe" etc... I want this article edited according to strict BLP rules. That is it. This was the IP's proposal: "To have a historically representative and balanced biography of ElBaradei which is in line with Misplaced Pages content policies and guidelines." this isn't good enough. there is no need to say historically representative and balanced biography, that is a suspect inclusion and is vulnerable to interpretation. I provided explicit BLP rules and general wikipedia practices. This article shouldn't be about the user or their version of history or balance. It's about the references, and we cannot discriminate (i.e, I don't like this). Everything the IP has said is exactly the same rationale he gave in previous disputes, and you see where that went. It's hard to not confront someone's ideas and proposals if you misconstrue it as an attack on the editor in question. I'm not gonna lie. Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:33, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I know the ground rules say not to rehash old arguments, but that seems to be what is happening. There was a long-running disagreement over an op-ed that Wikifan wanted to cite as a "reliable source" and others (myself included) thought unreliable because of factual errors. Wikifan has been unwilling to consider the use of alternate sources that reflect similar viewpoints but were more reliable. Others (myself included) have been unwilling to use this source for the reasons cited. So both sides have been inflexible on this point. It's not clear to me how to resolve this through mediation without adjudicating that disagreement on its merits.

One point for Wikifan to consider: I recognize the criticism of ElBaradei as having a legitimate basis and deserving space in this article. Using an error-ridden source to make the point has the effect of undermining the credibility of the viewpoint. The viewpoint would be represented more credibly if based on a different source that did not have such evident defects. Why not look for such a source? NPguy (talk) 10:34, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I'll sort out that part of the disagreement when we get to it. For now, I think it is important to collaborate on something simple, to get the ball rolling. Kevin (talk) 11:00, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Anyways, NPGuy proposed having an article which has "a focus on factual narrative but a minor admixture of favorable and unfavorable commentary" and "addressing the key issues ElBaradei was actively involved in" as a goal. I think this could be a starting point. I think we discuss policies in step 5.--99.162.60.191 (talk) 15:51, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I think there is an obvious misunderstanding of how we use sources. Whatever "errors" you identify is irrelevant. If its commentary from a reliable source, we CAN use it. Doesn't mean we have to, but we can. The rationales give to exclude do not apply, ever. Just as we don't exclude the error-ridden phony report by the Iranian doctor (pimping ME), or the errors/confusing rhetoric stated by ME, or the errors stated by George W. Bush, Osama Bin Laden, etc...all do not matter. Caroline Glick of Jpost is a reliable source. Heck, Caroline Glick herself is notable enough for inclusion, even if she said ME was a communist b@stard. Other editorials, by the NYT, WSJ, etc...can all be used because they are reliable sources. And errors like "5 terms" instead of 3 has been blown way out of proportional. It is not a major error. In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. Electronic media may also be used. Considering users felt it was ok to use China/Iranian propaganda as sources and nobody pointed that out besides myself (and no one seems to care still), demands to kick out Jpost, NYT, WSJ, and editorials that might not paint an "accurate portrait" (i.e, gushing praise) should not be taken seriously. This isn't a simple disagreement over an op-ed, it is a disagreement over the entire editing process. The article speaks for itself Kevin, and I want to fix it, according to strict BLP guidelines. No interpretation, no opinion, no this-is-how-i-think-the-article-should-be-edited. No one has yet to use a guideline that forbids editorials, even those with "errors." Please post one if you can. For every source used, it should be screened by BLP guidelines. Every. single. source. Can we agree? Wikifan12345 (talk) 19:19, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I think we should agree on a goal right now, but I have said I am willing to replace VoA, Tehran Times, etc. with other sources which say the exact same thing if necessary. And as for a guidelines about Glick, WP:V#Questionable sources says:

Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves.

--99.162.60.191 (talk) 20:37, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

The Jerusalem Post is a reliable source. Caroline Glick is a notable journalist. This isn't a questionable source. Tehran Times is a questionable source. This is a questionable source. This is a questionable source. This is questionable source. This is questionable source. Press TV is questionable source, in fact it's Iranian propaganda. And we have one, two, and three in the article. Who put in these sources again? We need accountability Kevin. Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:37, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure when you became the supreme and unquestionable arbiter of reliability. The problem with your argument is that except for the opinion of the Iranian doctor, the other sources simply relay statements of fact which are repeated in multiple other reliable sources. Glick is being used to convey a polemic and fringe opinion, and she makes at least two factual errors in her article. And you never did substantiate your claim that he was a "phony Iranian doctor". Is it just that you can state an opinion or make a claim about something and it is true without having to provide any support?--99.162.60.191 (talk) 21:58, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Uh, no. Jpost is in the wiki database. It is a reliable source according to wikipedia. No, propaganda cannot be corroborated by other sources. If it was, those sources would be in the article. The iranian doctor is phony by virtue of being a non-notable, unimportant, pimp-piece for ME. Can you rationalize Press TV, China propaganda, and the Tehran Times? All sources which you put in? As I said before Kevin, editors must be held accountable for the sources they use. I'm not accusing the IP or anyone of wrong-doing, I just would like to see a nice, simple explanation that verifies there inclusion according to strict BLP codes. I've done that for all the sources I used. Please, we are all listening. Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:43, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Kevin, does it not seem fair that editors understand the simple concept of no-propaganda? Really, it should be mandatory. Own up to your edits, or don't edit at all. If I continued to couch in Press TV, in say...george w bush in spite of warnings, I'd probably get blocked. Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:47, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

So what about the "American propaganda" of Voice of America? I don't know what reliable source database you are talking about, and I don't know how you think the Iranian doctor is phony.--99.162.60.191 (talk) 23:20, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

VOA is not promoted as an independent news service. Plus, you put in the source, not me.

I have been deliberately ignoring discussion of particular sources here, because they have no part in setting a goal. We are not going to set a goal that includes or excludes specific sources, so discussion at this point is premature, as I have stated numerous times. The detail of the article text and associated sources is the last thing we will get to, after we have set a framework for the article content. When we reach that point we can have all the discussion you want on sources, but not until then. Kevin (talk) 23:43, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Well can you be more explicit? References...uh, kind of make up the article. My goal is to edit the article according to strict BLP guidelines. Anything short of that is unacceptable. What do you have in mind? Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:59, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

What do you want the article to be? Npguy wants the article to be "balanced, with a focus on factual narrative", the IP suggested "To have a historically representative and balanced biography of ElBaradei". Maybe you could take those points, add your point about being compliant with policy, maybe start out with something about serving our readers.

All of this talk of sources now is just continuing old arguments, and we know that that method of resolving the dispute failed, so why continue it? Kevin (talk) 00:28, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

balance and factual narrative is all babble. It is codeword for "my version of balance and factual narrative." The guidelines have PERFECTLY crafted laws that dictate how articles should be edited. This doesn't need to be a debate. If users are disputing whether or not propaganda deserves a spot in the article, we have a problem. It certainly conflicts with "balance and factual narrative." We don't need a statement of purpose, we just need to follow the rules that every other editors do in BLPs. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:44, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

It seems like you are not happy with the way we are progressing. Do you feel that the plan we laid out at the top of the page is no longer appropriate? Kevin (talk) 00:55, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Do we really need to add "no propaganda" as part of our "plan?" Wikifan12345 (talk) 01:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

No, of course not. Can you answer my question above? Kevin (talk) 01:59, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Uh, there are several plans. NPguys, IP's, and mine. Wikifan12345 (talk) 02:31, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I was talking about the numbered plan at Talk:Mohamed_ElBaradei#Mediation, specifically #4 where we agreed to set a common goal. Your statement "We don't need a statement of purpose" seems at odds with that step. Kevin (talk) 07:47, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I touched the third rail here by reopening the disagreement on sources. Perhaps it will show, as Kevin said, how hopeless that path is. I'm also prepared to set aside for now the process point on flexibility and focus first on substance. My suggestions were to produce an article that is

• mostly factual, balanced, with a minor admixture of favorable and unfavorable comment; and
• historically representative (with whatever list of key events/issues we agree on).

Can we agree on these points? Are there any that are missing?

Wikifan has suggested that "balance" is in the eye of the beholder, so it's essentially meaningless. I think it's important as a first step to recognize the importance of balance, even if we disagree on the second step of how to achieve it. I would prefer to leave it to Kevin to help us work through that second step. NPguy (talk) 08:27, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Uh, we don't need to consciously weed out critical/positive sources. If something is a reliable source, we use it. Our goal should be maintaining neutrality and verifiability. This pursuit of "facts" and "truth" leads nowhere except POV-pushing and article ownership. Previous editing disputes prove that. ME is so controversial that it will be extremely difficult to create a "factual" article. Everything is opinion, spin, and perspective. The only "factual" events are those outside of ME, like Iran's/Pakistan/whatever nuclear program. Wikifan12345 (talk) 08:44, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

So could you try to condense that in to one or two sentences?--99.162.60.191 (talk) 17:20, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Probably. Wikifan12345 (talk) 19:11, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Are you willing to try that? Kevin (talk) 05:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Uh, serious question? Why? Is one paragraph too long? Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I'll take that as a no. I am disappointed that you are not willing to actively resolve this dispute. Kevin (talk) 06:11, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

what is the dispute? NPguy posts a misrepresentation of my POV and I correct his inaccuracies. IP dubiously asks me to condense my response into two sentences without rationale. I honestly thought he was kidding. And if he wasn't, well....perhaps he is the one who is not willing to actively resolve this "dispute." Wikifan12345 (talk) 06:23, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

My thinking was that way back at the beginning of setting a common goal Kevin asked us to come up with a few sentences that we could move forward with. Since you didn't seem to like any of my proposals, I was trying to get you to come up with one..--76.214.145.216 (talk) 14:51, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry I haven't returned to this in a few days, but it looks like this process hasn't been making significant progress. If I had to identify a reason, it would be that Wikifan is convinced that there is no other possible outcome than that the article conform to his interpretation of BLP and its application to ElBaradei. I agree that this is disappointing. I think we would all appreciate it if you, Wikifan, would agree to and actually follow through on participating in a mediation process in good faith. Mediation does not mean structured debate that vindicates your position - compromise on your part will be necessary in order to come to a useful conclusion.

On a side note, I don't know anything about this Iranian doctor that has been mentioned. Assuming that he is still alive, however, the BLP policy applies to him as much as it does ElBaradei. Further mentions of him as "phony" or his work as "phony" without substantiation should result in blocks or topic bans for anyone violating BLP in that way. Nathan 15:37, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's all wikifan's fault. Surprise. All he wants is for the editing process to follow strict BLP guidelines and restrict policy interpretation (as stated by IP). How demanding! He is so disruptive. The Iranian doctor was simply an example. IP posted it under the rationale, "if we can include American, we can also include Iranian." No, Nathan we can't. A non-notable unknown Iranian doctor writes a book that vaguely refers to ME (and not in specific context) is unacceptable. Especially when the edit was simply in response to my edits, which could be considered editing to illustrate a point...but again, we are supposed to forget the past. I don't see how referring to a phony doctor constitutes a topic ban. Can you provide a policy that supports such assertion? Well, then again...you said you didn't know anything about this Iranian doctor. IMO, willingly posting propaganda sites and claiming they are reliable sources (over 10+) and reverting users who try to remove them violates all that is BLP. It is not only potentially libelous, but defeats the whole purpose of wikipedia. We might as well us The Onion. anyways. I guess no one cares though? Serious question. I think we all agree to this "common" goal, now off to the meaty stuff. Like understanding the basic policy of what are and what aren't reliable sources. Failure to do so would force us into a more pressuring mediation, and that will likely not end well. Can we agree or should I condense this into two sentences? Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:46, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikifan, there is a reason that assuming good faith is a policy. The core of it is that we ought to assume that others edit not to provoke you, or to create a terrible POV article, or to violate myriad policies, but that others have interests similar to your own. Specifically, I've seen nothing to suggest that any other editor of this talkpage is unfamiliar with the RS or BLP policies; nothing that suggests to me a willingness or desire to violate either policy, and very little that suggests they are unwilling to compromise with you on certain issues in the context of mediation. We share your goals, but we may have a somewhat different understanding of BLP and other policies than you. For example, I'd prefer to exclude both editorials and state-owned news outlets. Your approach suggests that you think no one else understands BLP, or that everyone else is intent on violating it. That simply isn't the case. If anything, you personally are polarizing this debate unnecessarily.

As for BLP and the Iranian doctor - you absolutely need to stop referring to a living person as a "phony doctor" or his work as phony. The real name of the person you are talking about is on this talkpage. That is utterly basic BLP policy. I also don't think "non-notable unknown" is really necessary - that description includes most people, doesn't it? Nathan 23:04, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I've assumed good faith off and on. But honestly, I cordially enumerated the sources. All of them, from propaganda, to promotion sites, and not even half could be considered reliable. IP claimed that the propaganda sources were corroborated by reliable sources. That is totally absurd and I asked him to prove it, and he told me to condense what I wrote in two sentences. Editors cannot continue to demand good faith when they constantly violate basic core policies. And you cannot expect me to assume good faith beyond the ordinary after the IP reported me to noticeboards in spite of a well-established agreement he made here. You didn't seem to have a problem with that. If you are seriously saying nothing suggests users haven't violated or do not understand BLP policies then I insist you read the article and discussion. It's assumed violations have been made because the article was reverted to a previous state by an administrator because of BLP violations by the IP. Here is a statement you made above: "For example, I'd prefer to exclude both editorials and state-owned news outlets." This is a major problem. "I prefer, "In my opinion," "I believe," etc....is not a valid justification. Editorials go hand-in-hand with BLPs. Alan Dershowitz, Norman Finkelstein, Ban Ki-moon, and practically all controversial/critical/important figures contain editorials (all reliable sources of course) in the article. Find me a rule that restricts editorials, please. I asked you asked you guys three times. "State-media" isn't the issue. Propaganda is. Virtually all Middle Eastern media is stated owned with the exception of Israel, even praised al jazeera is owned by a despot. This argument over what is reliable sources, what should be in the article, how we should edit is becoming way too long. We have BLP policies that are standard and should be a first and hopefully only tool to decide what should be in the article. Sure, there are exceptions, but please...demanding we exclude Jpost, NYT, WSJ, while claiming an unreliable and unheard of so-called Iranian doctor (phony, IMO) is perfectly ok doesn't make sense. Now we are going to revert back to, "let's make a common goal..." and then we'll have to do this all over again. This is not rocket science. BLP is pretty easy if you read the policies. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:24, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd really like to keep any reply brief since the entire discussion is off-topic, but you said "IP claimed that the propaganda sources were corroborated by reliable sources. That is totally absurd and I asked him to prove it, and he told me to condense what I wrote in two sentences"

So, for example, the "Chinese propaganda" of Xinhua, the official press agency of the government of China which employs ten times the number of reporters as similar agencies such as Reuters, is being used to support an objective quote. This quote has been picked up by multiple other sources such as The Department of Foreign Affairs of South Africa, Global Security, AFP, The Daily Times, etc. So I suppose this is French Pakistani South African Global Security Chinese propaganda as well.

Similarly, the "American propaganda" of Voice of America, is being used to support the fact that ElBaradei objectively said he will not be seeking a fourth term. While some op-ed writers may dislike the American propaganda of ElBaradei having only served three terms (and not five), The Financial Express and Chinese propaganda also corroborate the American propaganda.

So, I don't really care which sources are used to support the material. It would be useful if you could provide support for your assertion that Afrasiabi is a "phony Iranian doctor" though.

I would again reiterate that this discussion is off-topic and that we should just be coming up with a goal right now.--76.214.145.216 (talk) 00:00, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Xinhua is being used to support facts, not quotes. Either way, it is not a reliable source and it being the state media agency of China is the whole point. You just don't understand the concept of reliable sources according to wikipedia policy, and that is the problem. You. Do. Not. Understand. What. Reliable. Sourcing. Means. Look up BLP policy, I've quoted official guidelines extensively and you've ignored it time and time again. Kevin, if editors cannot grasp this, I consider we ship this off the BLP noticeboard. They'll tell you right off the bat that propaganda news sites are not tolerated outside a few exceptions. You won't find xinhua in George Bush or tehran times in Barack OBama. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:19, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I find it completely irrelevant which source is used to support something when there are so many sources to support the same thing. At this point I think you are trying to create a fire where there is none. I also think it is sad that it takes a week to come up with two or three sentences.--76.214.145.216 (talk) 00:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

It is off topic for setting a goal - it goes back to setting conditions for the discussion. It will be impossible to pursue a meaningful mediation if we can't move beyond disputes about past interaction and assume, going forward, that we're all capable of reading and understanding policy. That we can have good faith disagreements, beyond simple misunderstanding or unfamiliarity, is a bedrock notion on Misplaced Pages and any community endeavour. Nathan 00:14, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Right. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:19, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Again, the material you are trying to take issue with occurs in many reliable sources, so I don't care if Xinhua or The Financial Express is used to report the exact same information. We should be coming up with a goal. And I think the problem I think you have is relying on a polemic and mistake-ridden op-ed. Of note, DebkaFile, an Israeli open source military intelligence website, also carried the claim of ElBaradei serving five terms. So, the only problem I have seen, is an op-ed writer relying on very low quality open-source Israeli military intelligence (I would call it propaganda, but propaganda is a rumor which is used to help a cause.) It would be useful if you could provide support for your assertion that Afrasiabi is a "phony Iranian doctor" though. You might start out outside the open source Israeli military intelligence, since its record doesn't seem to be too good.--76.214.145.216 (talk) 00:24, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

1. Shulman, Holly Cowan. The Voice of America: Propaganda and Democracy, 1941-1945. Madison, Wis.: University of Wisconsin Press, 1990.
2. Scott, Julia. "America's Propaganda War". 2 March 2005. Salon.com. http://archive.salon.com/politics/war_room/2005/03/02/propaganda/print.html
3. Joyce, Christopher, and David Nordell. "Migrating Birds Fall Foul of America's Propaganda War". New Scientist. Issue 1708. March 1990. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg12517081.000-migrating-birds-fall-foul-of-americas-propaganda-war-.html

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