Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:58, 22 May 2009

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

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Index -index- As of January 16, 2003 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 - late May 2006 May 24 - July 2006 July 2006 - August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 - Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 - December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 - Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 - Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007- Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2-5, 2007 March 5-11, 2007 March 11 - April 3, 2007 April 2 - May 2, 2007 May 3 - June 7, 2007 June 9 - July 4, 2007 July 13 - August 17, 2007 August 17 - September 11, 2007 September 14 - October 7, 2007 October 28 - December 1, 2007 December 2 - December 16, 2007 December 15 - January 4, 2008 January 4 - January 30, 2008 January 30 - February 28, 2008 February 28 - March 11, 2008 March 9 - April 18, 2008 April 18 - May 30, 2008 May 30 - July 27, 2008 July 26 - October 4, 2008 October 4 - November 12, 2008 November 10 - December 10, 2008 December 5 - December 25, 2008 December 25 - January 16, 2009 January 15 - January 27, 2009 January 26 - February 10, 2009 February 8 - March 18, 2009 March 18 - May 6, 2009 May 5 - June 9, 2009 June 10 - July 11, 2009 July 12 - August 29, 2009

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Message of an anonymous on your user page.

I find that Wiki's are very helpful. I and other gamers that I know use Wiki for our gaming needs. Thanks Jimbo for creating a user friendly source of information.. DT 129.71.117.210 10:15, 16 May 2009

Friendly Message from Shane91c

User:Shane91c has given you a bubble tea! Bubble teas promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a bubble tea, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy drinking!

Spread the bubbliness of bubble teas by adding {{subst:bubble tea}} to someone's talk page with a friendly message! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shane91c (talk • contribs) May 18, 2009

"Writing for the enemy" vs. Writing for the opponent"

At the proposal page Misplaced Pages talk:Neutrality enforcement we are discussing more NPOV ways of writing for Misplaced Pages and a user keeps using the phrase and referring to WP:Writing_for_the_enemy. I object to the phrase, and wrote on the talk page (updated slightly): To assume another editor or a reader is an enemy does not assume good faith. Plus saying the word "enemy" brings up visceral negative reaction making it more difficult to write for that negatively visualized person. However, the word "opponent" makes it sound more like the intellectual battle editing Misplaced Pages often is and is a more respectful term which is more likely to get people thinking in positive terms. I then was told you originated and liked the phrase. If true, I’d like to suggest you think about replacing “writing for the enemy” with “writing for the opponent.” CarolMooreDC (talk) 02:34, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I am happy with your suggestion. I am opposed to a model of Misplaced Pages as a battleground in the war for ideas. I think every editor should write neutrally (as best as he or she can) at all times. I am favorably impressed by the attitude embodied in proposals like this one: Misplaced Pages:Neutrality enforcement. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:21, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Great! Will inform Misplaced Pages talk:Writing for the enemy and see if they want to change the name of article. Note that I got the idea from a great little book called "Fighting with Gandhi" which purposely uses the word opponent. CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I want the desblock in spanish wikiquote

Hello dear Jimbo, my IP adress is blocked because a mistake, I`m a innocet user, but Drini hates Jehova's Witnesses users, and he is a proscriptor and a very bad enemy of us. I want, please, the desblock in spanish wikiquote, because I`m working constructuvely. Can you Speak with Drini the Ip's policeman an say him I'm innocent an I`m not a vandal? Thank you very much. --87.220.31.209 (talk) 14:56, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Hello Jimbo, I wait for a response. Thanks. --87.220.31.14 (talk) 21:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

General note for everybody: Drini is a steward who has confirmed that the above IP belongs to a sockpuppeteer. Griffinofwales (talk) 02:55, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not a sockpuppeteer. Drini hates Jehovah's Witnesses users because he likes Maya's gods. I was working constructively but he hates Bible quotations in the proyect. If I'm writing here is because I'm innocent. I want the desblock. --87.220.31.238 (talk) 10:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

What does "desblock" translate to in English? --64.85.222.62 (talk) 12:42, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

"Unblock", (or "disenblockify", if you're not into that whole … brevity thing). pablo_hablo. 14:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Orwellian Changes To Words

I do have a question (actually, more of a concern). I think you have distorted the meaning of the word 'vandalise'. Sure, some people do vandalise Misplaced Pages pages - in the real and proper sense of the word - but others just tweak things for fun, or to prick pomposity, or to hint at a more serious flaw in an entry. I think it is wrong to call such 'tweakers' vandals. A vandal is in many societies a form of criminal yet many of the so-called Misplaced Pages vandals are no such thing. 'Vandal' is also an emotive word and should perhaps be reserved for those who fall at the extreme end of the scale i.e. those who recklessly despoil and ruin an otherwise valid and accurate entry. Some thought needs to be given to creating more accurate names and terms on this issue or else you risk irritating and alienating people. Indeed, they might even become the thing they are accused of if goaded long enough. Finally, from a Devil's Advocate position, I think it is bad for language and social progress to distort and twist words. Orwell showed us how this can lead to a form of creeping, pernicious thought control. So besides objecting to the catch-all use of the word 'vandal' on the grounds of grammatical pedantry, I also worry where it might lead, what with CCTV and IP traces. Who knows, in five years time somebody could theoretically be convicted of Misplaced Pages vandalisation, and possibly imprisoned. One need only reflect upon relatively recent events in Stalin's Russia and contemporary events in China to realise that is not a far-fetched concern. Most of us live in a 'free' world now, but who's to say what might happen in a few years time? The controls and systems currently being introduced via new technology would hand any future dictatorship complete control over our lives. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.16.208.83 (talk) 16:05, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I think that 'vandal' is a perfectly appropriate term, used very gently here at Misplaced Pages.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:02, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Tried to send you an email

But it kept saying "mailer error". Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.233.68.44 (talk) 05:31, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Admins unwilling/unable to deal with abusive edits by other admins?

You might want to check out Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Bishonen_using_status_as_admin_to_control_others_while_violating_our_civility_policy if you have a moment. Exxolon (talk) 01:36, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Thankyou, I'm sorry I had to bring you into this but I could not see any other means to get this dealt with effectively. Exxolon (talk) 02:26, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Block of Bishonen, question

Is this an endorsement of the long absent ideal that any user, from the newly registered user, to the Arbs, up to yourself, are held to identical requirements of adherence to policy? rootology (C)(T) 02:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Using this a platform to push your views forward, eh, Rootology? A bit uncouth and unnecessary. Jimmy: It's customary to leave a note on the talk page of the person you've blocked. (Though I imagine you're doing this as I'm typing, surely.) --MZMcBride (talk) 02:30, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

No, it's a serious question. Are all of us supposed to be held to matching standards? rootology (C)(T) 02:33, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm reluctant to answer the general question because I'm not sure of what baggage it is intended to carry. My block is an illustration of the concept that admins are expected to behave in a particular way, a way that doesn't include that kind of thing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:46, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

There's no baggage. A lot of commentary of late has been floating around that we admins are 1) above the rules, or 2) held to different standards--looser standards--than non-admins. The question is literally what it is--are all users here supposed to follow the policies the same, with the same levels of repercussions if they don't? rootology (C)(T) 02:47, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Basically, yes. Indeed, I would say that admins should be held to a higher standard. ArbCom members, to a still-higher standard. And me - to the highest standard. This I say with an acknowledgment that we are all capable of error and folly, and should be forgiven such if we are acting in good faith. Nothing is simple. Justice is complex and thoughtful. Kindness is a lifestyle not an algorithm.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

You and I disagree on a lot of stuff, sometimes in private, sometimes in public, but we're on the same page on this. Thanks. rootology (C)(T) 02:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

My opinion - not that anyone asked - is that Jimmy has this one precisely correct; those who know me know that I disagree with power as often (or more) than I agree with power, so this isn't a sycophant-like moment for me. The truth is, Misplaced Pages (particularly this one) has been far too tolerant of toxic personalities that create a hostile environment. The damage they do is so much more than just hurt feelings; it pollutes the whole project. When we allow people to treat others in a way that is less than polite; less than considerate, less than peaceful, and less than just, we foster an atmosphere where those values are diminished. That is not the WIkipedia that I fell in love with. Justice used to - and should - and will again - be one of our very core values. It was unspoken, but it was there. We are, generally, a peaceful people who occasionally lose our way and fall into madness. When that happens, we, the community, need reminders of whom we are. I appreciate Jimmy for taking the hard road, and for saying "The behavior was unacceptable. This is who we are. This is where we stand. We can do no other."

One of my favorite quotes is this: "I believe that what I do becomes part of me. When I'm brave and strong and care for children or the sick and the poor, I become a better person. And when I'm cruel, or cowardly or tell lies, I turn into someone less worth, and I can't respect myself. That's the divine retribution I believe in." (Ken Follett, World without end; p.725)

When we care enough to create a loving, justice filled community, it becomes a part of us. When we are cruel, or mean, that becomes a part of us too. I applaud Jimmy for his actions in supporting a loving community. - Philippe 09:54, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

oh philippe - that's a reasonably well written, and no doubt heartfelt, post - just please remember that the noble sentiments you express are in truth far more than skin deep. Sometimes loving a project means telling someone who's being a little shit that that's what they are. This is true regardless of the little-shitiness of the user in question. Beware of the stifling of reason, and dissent, and especially beware of the establishment of two-bit 'rules' ahead of the principle of creating an awesome collection of information and knowledge. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, right? - you're no doubt aware that 'love-bombing' is a sure sign of a cult.... something we must never become..... Privatemusings (talk) 10:10, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

That may be, but bad words are being thrown around far too easy lately. We all get upset and say things we shouldn't have said, but people also need to start realizing again, that at some point such behaviour will get them blocked or thrown out. An incident != a toxic environment around a person. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 10:56, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Jimmy, for what it's worth, I was dismayed when I saw this edit, and wished you'd mentioned 'conduct' rather than 'editors', especially considering the circumstances of the block. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:49, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

You are right that it would have been more gentle to talk about toxic "behaviors" rather than "personalities". And to be clear, I do not think that Bishonen is a toxic personality.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:58, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Shaven Genitalia on userpages

G'day Jimbo - just by chance I happen to have sent a post to foundation-l about this one a few moments ago, and swung by here to see that you're in blocking mode! I wonder if, given this, you might be inclined to do anything about this, this evening?

Ps. If you're struggling to cope with the backstory of the latest broo ha ha, you should probably at least be informed that the catalyst was a problem with a user who recently became an admin, and, it transpires, had posted your personal details (name, birthdate, address, and information about whom you share your residence with) on IRC, garnered from private access to some sort of electoral database. In all seriousness, the toxic personalities may not be so obvious, and calling folk 'little shits' is far less serious than plagiarism, and the breaching of trust on privacy issues, I reckon... Privatemusings (talk) 02:57, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

pps. the other small problem is that the user in question was behaving in ways which might lead a reasonable person using straight forward language to describe as behaviour a little shit might exhibit. Wouldn't dream of doing so myself, 'cos I'm too nice, but I thought you might like to know.... Privatemusings (talk) 03:00, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

While I am sure Jimbo will recall commenting on this matter previously on Webhamster's talk page, here is a link to the subsequent community deletion debate which closed with a WP:SNOW Keep. It would not be nice to fail to provide full references when requesting action. // BL \\ (talk) 03:24, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Geez, this again? - ALLST✰R▼ _{wuz here @} 04:30, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

PM, to mix two sayings, you're beating a dead horse about the bush. the wub "?!" 10:19, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

heh! - well I've been accused of 'equine necrophilia' a few times, but never in a specific physical area (your post has the great advantage of actually being witty, mind!). My hope here wasn't really to drag up the issues, but just that Jimbo might have been in the mood to act upon his stated positions... we'll see if that's true or not! cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 10:27, 22 May 2009 (UTC) ps. pictures of shaven women's bits don't really belong on userpages - I think you'd agree?

The problem with that userpage isn't the nudity, it's the political statement. Someone's opinions of a former US president are not appropriate content for their Misplaced Pages userpage, regardless of how they express those opinions. --Tango (talk) 10:39, 22 May 2009 (UTC)