Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:20, 7 June 2009

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Rewrite

Since I had some time I have rewritten the article. I suggest a better title such as chiropractic controversy. QuackGuru (talk) 05:05, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

That's what the current content describes, and the title should match the contents. Be bold. Good going. This article can form the basis for a much larger article. I note that you have bolded controversy and criticism, and they should likely be part of the title. Hmmmm.....maybe Chiropractic controversies and criticism or some such beast? You can just move the article to the new title. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:49, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Hughgr's edit changing this back into a redirect. I agree that the article as written was a POV fork. QuackGuru had, for example, added the following: "Evidence-based guidelines are supported by one end of an ideological continuum among chiropractors; the other end employs antiscientific reasoning and unsubstantiated claims ... that are ethically suspect when they let practitioners maintain their beliefs to patients' detriment." This sentence has been discussed extensively at the Chiropractic article. QuackGuru has been involved in those discussions, and it has been explained that this violates NPOV by stating as if it's fact the opinion that something is "antiscientific" and that something is "ethically suspect". Whether something is "ethically suspect" is always opinion, not fact, even if it's something clear such as that it's wrong to steal: see WP:ASF. Whether chiropractors' reasoning is "antiscientific" is also not established as fact but only stated as opinion. All this has been explained to QuackGuru in previous discussions at Talk:Chiropractic, and the Chiropractic page uses prose attribution to make it clear that Misplaced Pages is describing what's asserted in reliable sources, not endorsing those judgements itself. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 16:48, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Then the solution is to word it (the whole thing, not just that one instance) in an NPOV manner by using attibution to the very notable and RS, not delete it after the wishes of chiropractor Hughgr. The subject is too large to be contained in the chiropractic article simply because of space issues. It wouldn't be welcome there either, as the deletionism of Hughgr and other chiropractors and chiro advocates has abundantly shown in the past. They don't tolerate much documented criticism in the main article. This leaves a large gaping hole (the elephant in the corner) in the main article, since the profession has been extremely controversial throughout its history. That aspect of its history isn't dealt with much at all. -- Brangifer (talk) 17:19, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Note that the current contents (before this latest redirect) did not match the title, and the article was just about to be moved to an appropriate title. These contents did not match the spot the redirect has pointed to. -- Brangifer (talk) 17:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

This page is a stub. It took a number of years to improve the main page. This can be written like Aspartame controversy. QuackGuru (talk) 19:04, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi Fylsee/BullRangifer, still commenting on the contributor and not the contributions I see.... It should not matter that I am a chiro or that you are a chiro-skeptic. After all these years, I would have thought you would have picked up on that by now...--Hughgr (talk) 22:18, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Vaccination

See discussion at User talk:Coppertwig#FV.

I'm not sure I can access the source for this statement about vaccination, but it sounds rather effusive and I suspect it may be more of an opinion than a verifiable fact (WP:ASF): "one of the most effective public health measures in history". The ref used at the Chiropractic article for a statement about vaccination says "Although most public health authorities would agree that vaccination constitutes one of the most cost-effective infectious disease control measures of the last century, few, if any, would argue that there are no problems associated with their use." I suggest the following wording (since this article is to be longer than Chiropractic): "generally considered one of the most cost-effective infectious disease control measures, although not problem-free", to replace the wording I quoted earlier in this paragraph. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 19:33, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Although not problem free is failed verification in that context and is a minority point. QuackGuru (talk) 19:36, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by failed verification. "not problem-free" is my summary of the wording in the source "few, if any, would argue that there are no problems associated with their use". Do you think it's an inaccurate summary? Can you suggest another summary of those words? How about "not free of problems"? And I don't know why you call it a minority point; it says "although few would argue that", implying that almost all public health authorities agree that there are problems. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 19:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Wasn't this rejected at the main article. Only a few would argue is clearly a minor point. QuackGuru (talk) 19:58, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Few arguing that there are no problems implies that most accept that there are problems. That's therefore the majority view: that it's not free of problems. The idea that it's free of problems is the minority view (or nobody's view, possibly: "if any"). How about sticking more closely to the wording of the source? That's often a way to overcome disagreement. How about "generally considered one of the most cost-effective infectious disease control measures, although few would argue that it is free of problems." This is a concession to the anti-vaccination POV, since I'm leaving out "if any".

I don't remember this wording having been discussed previously at the main article. (See my comment on this at my talk page.) ☺Coppertwig (talk) 20:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Which ref are you reading. QuackGuru (talk) 20:40, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Busse 2005, Chiropractic Antivaccination Arguments, ☺Coppertwig (talk) 20:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Where is the ref in the article. QuackGuru (talk) 20:58, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

For some unknown reason the sentence Copptertwig objected to has vanished. I think this was the reason. I don't understand. I thought Coppertwig made the edit but to my suprise it was another editor. QuackGuru (talk) 22:15, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

To cut down on the amount of (future) conflict here, I think it is imperative that this article be absolutely NPOV and uses plenty of attribution for every opinion, and even for many facts. -- Brangifer (talk) 21:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

History

Now that I've thought about it (which I should have done sooner..) I think it's unfortunate that we "moved" this article, rather than just copied it. We've gotten the whole history of another article with it, and that's not good. This is a different subject. We should get the history cleared, except that that would remove the history of the previous article, which wouldn't be good either. What's the right way to do this? Can we temporarily (a few minutes) move this back, delete this current title, short history and all, and then copy the contents over here and start this article title up again? if we can get an admin with the right tools to help, we should be able to do this within a few minutes time. -- Brangifer (talk) 21:36, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

It is a different article but I did use a couple of refs from the previous article and part of the first sentence. My sandbox showed I did use a tiny portion the previous article to form this newer article. QuackGuru (talk) 22:02, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I am in your wiki, editing your articles.

Hi, I have made some small edits, but for the most part I have kept 'removed' text in comments for ease of subsequent editing. Unomi (talk) 21:46, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Re vaccination, flouridation

btw, from the source re flouridation I gathered why some chiros held their view based on Chiropractors have a drugless healing profession, but the feeling that fluoridation is medication is absurd. It is an essential nutrient that naturally occurs.. IE that chiros are against all kinds of medication, if so this would probably be a better header than having it under 'efficacy'. I commented out the vaccine line because it seemed strange to have what 'some believe' as a criticism of Chiropractic, ie, some Chiropractors believe they are good singers etc. Unomi (talk) 22:20, 7 June 2009 (UTC)