Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:13, 29 November 2005

Removed We don't know...

(William M. Connolley 17:58, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)) I've made some tweaks, and entirely removed

"We don't know what has triggered past continental glacial periods, but recent studies indicate ice ages may start and end extremely abruptly so it probably would be quickly apparent if a glacial period has begun. But in 1975 it was also apparent that temperatures had been going down."

which has little value. Past glaciation is tied to milankovitch; what recent studies are referred to?, t trends have been discussed above and don't need repeating.

(SEWilco 09:50, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC))

As the last sentence indicates, I was still speaking in the context of the mid-70s, about the cooling which ended then. "recent studies" is anything in the past 25 years, but there certainly have been plenty in the past 5-10 years about the sudden transitions to and from glaciation periods. Apparently the phrasing needs to emphasize the 1970s history section.

The structure of this piece is

• General coverage of Global Cooling as a subject.
• Past history of the 1970s peak of concern about cooling.
• Dismissal of 1970s state due to warming and better science.
• Conclusion emphasizing current level of understanding and connect back to the beginning by emphasizing that the logic used in 1975 fails because we have not become increasingly colder.

Orbital variation

(SEWilco 04:00, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)) OK, so you're certain the recent pattern of orbital variation is at an end. I was trying to leave the ice age details in that other article. So when the next ice age starts, it will be less neccesary to update more than just one page :-)

(William M. Connolley 08:45, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)) No great hurry then...

I've removed "slow" from the warming trend... since its faster than the cooling trend, which someone (I wonder who) described as "abrupt".

I've revised the order of some paras, the quote from your history site is now in the general intro where I think it belongs. Etc.

Article needs less POV. It makes valid points already, without adding insults.

Global Warming is false!

For the past 2 years now, winter has been colder than ever where I live. Andros 1337 21:38, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

So what? The topic here is global warming, not "warming where Andros lives." Where I live, winters have been warmer. Climate researchers, however, look at more than merely "the weather where Andros lives" or "the weather where Sheldon Rampton lives." To measure global warming, they study temperatures throughout the planet. --Sheldon Rampton 21:51, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Introduction

The version I fixed was inaccurate and badly written. If you don't like how mine is phrased then fix it. If you prefer to use the other as a basis for your edits then feel free. Someone is going to fix it though and if you can't be bothered, then I will. In any case, spare us your imperious reverts.--JonGwynne 19:11, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 21:16, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)) This is stupid. The version there was accurate as was, you have just added your POV. You are being impolite by not marking your reverts as such. You have failed to point to any inaccuracies. Starting an edit war on this page while the Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/William M. Connolley is in progress is pointless provocation.

The previous version is inaccurate. For example, "global cooling" isn't a "concern", it is a theory. The use of "was" is inappropriate since it still is a theory - although most people consider it obsolete in the light of new research. Oh, wait... I pointed out that fact in the new version of article. How about that? Now what was this about a POV you claim I added to it? I notice you're very free with your unquantified and unsubstantianted allegations. And while we're on the subject, in your comments you use the phrase "this is stupid". I would like you to explain exactly what it is you think is stupid. Because if you're referring to me, my edit or my raising of this issue... wouldn't that be regarded as a personal attack? I mean, not that I really care what you think of me, I just mention it because you're sure quick to accuse other people of making personal attacks against you (even when they're not). Are you unwilling to hold yourself to the same standards? In any case, you're certainly the last one here to be lecturing other people on politeness - the general practice is to learn and practice something before you start trying to pass it on to other people. And before we leave the subject of unsubstantiated claims, how do you figure I'm "starting an edit war" by correcting misstatements and pointing out clearly that the theory of global cooling is obsolete so you won't throw a fit and engage in your typical knee-jerk-reversions? Is it because I mentioned Global Warming? The only reason I did that was to provide a place to add a link to same. If you want to take it out, feel free. If you want to say something like "The theory is generally considered to be obsolete.", that would be fine. That's how a most of the people here seem to think wikipedia is supposed to work. Person A comes in and makes some changes to an article, then someone else comes along and makes changes to the changes. Person C comes along... That's how the articles grow, evolve and are improved. Persistent and unnecessary reversions screws up this process.--JonGwynne 22:33, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have reverted the introduction to what it said previously, with the addition of a link to Stephen Schneider who wrote a book in 1976 on Global Cooling called "The Genesis Strategy" and wrote an introduction to another called "The Cooling" by Lowell Ponte. William Connelley is already on parole for reverting without explanation, and has a well deserved reputation for censoring statements that clash with his political beliefs. --DiamondGeezer 19:38, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I've reverted your stuff. I called it "traditional nonsense", which is correct. It is traditional to misrepresent the GS. Have you ever even read the GS? There is something about it on my page: http://www.wmconnolley.org.uk/sci/iceage/schneider-genesis.html. Your misrepresentation of my position won't help you. It is not correct (as the body of the article demonstrates) that many scientists were predicting cooling. William M. Connolley 20:59, 30 October 2005 (UTC).

PDO

I removed:

A significant event was the discovery in 1997 of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) having undergone regime shifts during the time periods when temperature patterns changed...

This isn't particularly significant; describing it as such is POV. PDO doesn't feature much in describing 20C T change. Putting it in this article makes even less sense. William M. Connolley 17:45:08, 2005-07-13 (UTC).

Fiction

This may or may not be off topic. I have 2 Science Fiction novels, both from the 1960s (The Ice Schooner by Michael Moorcock first published in 1996 and The World in Winter by John Christopher, 1962) which are concerned with a new ice age starting on earth. Might there be a point in having a section on fiction inspired by the idea of cooling Earth? I don't think it really says anything even about the public perception though as The Drowned World by J.G. Ballard was also publised in 1962.--NHSavage 19:15, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

1996??? 1966? Never read that, at least not to remember. The world in winter I think I may have... the important point would probably be the mechanism "proposed" in the book, and whether it could be really about an ice age or more "general apocalyptic" (fitting in with Ballard, who had a whole range of them, also "the crystal world"). Who did "death of grass"? thet might have been christopher too. William M. Connolley 20:18:56, 2005-09-04 (UTC).

Firstly yes it was 1966 (my brain is faster then my fingers) I have now discovered there is a specific page on apocolyptic sci-fi so it is probably better just to ignore it here. FWIW World in Winter is based on the idea of a "radiation cycle in the sun" so unconnected to this idea. The Ice Schooner explanations come towards the end so I won't add in a spoiler but are not really relevant either. Death of Grass was also Christopher. --NHSavage 19:56, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, thats a nice page, thanks for pointing it out. There is something to be said for some kind of "the end of the world was in peoples minds" type text on the page. Unfortunately that page is not indexed by date... William M. Connolley 20:09, 19 September 2005 (UTC).

Inline vs FN

I've reverted SEW's icky footnotes stuff out. Reasons same as ever, but la la la, we have to keep people happy so here we go yet again... stop me if you're bored or anything...

• it over-complexifies, and therefore raises a bar against non-expert users adding stuff: which I regard as very anti-wiki
• its very hard to maintain: every time you add a new one, all the others need re-numbering
• its 2 clicks not 1 to get to a ref
• perhaps more incidentally, it works very badly in the history: click on one in a previous diff and you get redirected to the current version: very confusing indeed

William M. Connolley 16:12, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, as with the Kyoto protocol article, inline links are preferred. Having said that, the links need to be collected at the end in a Rreference section, but not with the cumbersome and easily brken pet project that SEW is pushing. Given time, I'll try to convert his notes section into a proper reference section for the article as I plan to do with Kyoto. Vsmith 16:23, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Until you have time to edit them, don't delete the more detailed citations. Do you delete everything you don't have time to edit? (SEWilco 16:59, 18 November 2005 (UTC))

Have you made any effort to reach consensus on the issue? Vsmith 17:14, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, good. BTW I *do* record my thanks to SEW for pointing out the broken care4free links and the leeds link. I've removed the latter (fixed version) because it was only there for the graphs (I forget who added it) and the interest would be in having *contemporary* graphs. William M. Connolley 16:29, 18 November 2005 (UTC).

Historical graphs are not relevant to a historical article? (SEWilco 16:59, 18 November 2005 (UTC))

You're too busy reverting to think. The graphs on that page *aren't* historical. Sigh. William M. Connolley 17:43, 18 November 2005 (UTC).

Looks to me like "decades of a cooling trend" refers to the text in the source material. (SEWilco 03:15, 19 November 2005 (UTC))

Incidentally, your description of the WP:FN system is full of errors. (SEWilco 03:16, 19 November 2005 (UTC))

Ahh, well that was a feeble but nonetheless welcome attempt at communication, do try a bit harder and point out these errors. Who knows, if you talk, people may listen? William M. Connolley 15:05, 19 November 2005 (UTC).

Sorry to break the thread of emergent discussion but I think I'm obliged to add a comment, so I'll cut-n-paste again to keep The Usual Suspects happy:

I've reverted SEW's icky footnotes stuff out. Reasons same as ever, but la la la, we have to keep people happy so here we go yet again... stop me if you're bored or anything...

• it over-complexifies, and therefore raises a bar against non-expert users adding stuff: which I regard as very anti-wiki
• its very hard to maintain: every time you add a new one, all the others need re-numbering
• its 2 clicks not 1 to get to a ref
• perhaps more incidentally, it works very badly in the history: click on one in a previous diff and you get redirected to the current version: very confusing indeed

Feel free to remove this bit, BTW: it serves no purpose by being here, its only necessary for me to add it! William M. Connolley 21:28, 19 November 2005 (UTC).

Well the thread of emergent discussion seems to have become rather thin in these bitter times... but I think I'm obliged to add a comment, so I'll cut-n-paste again to keep The Usual Suspects happy:

I've reverted SEW's icky footnotes stuff out. Reasons same as ever, but la la la, we have to keep people happy so here we go yet again... stop me if you're bored or anything...

• it over-complexifies, and therefore raises a bar against non-expert users adding stuff: which I regard as very anti-wiki
• its very hard to maintain: every time you add a new one, all the others need re-numbering
• its 2 clicks not 1 to get to a ref
• perhaps more incidentally, it works very badly in the history: click on one in a previous diff and you get redirected to the current version: very confusing indeed

Feel free to remove this bit, BTW: it serves no purpose by being here, its only necessary for me to add it! William M. Connolley 21:37, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Still thin. Hey ho. All the talk seems to be at kyoto protocol. William M. Connolley 10:01, 22 November 2005 (UTC).

SEW continues to refuse to talk. Lets quote some wise words from his own talk page:

WP:CITE says you must defer to the citation style used by the first major contributor, unless there is a consensus on the page to change it. See Misplaced Pages:Cite sources#How to Cite Sources, which says: "If contributors differ as to the appropriate style of citation, they should defer to the article's main content contributors in deciding the most suitable format for the presentation of references. If no agreement can be reached, the style used should be that of the first major contributor." I understand that you're keen on footnotes, and although I've personally never seen the attraction of them, I'm very willing to be proven wrong, and I respect that you're willing to devote time and energy to helping with WP's sourcing issues. I wish more editors would do that! But please try to see that there are advantages in other citation styles too, and edit warring to replace other styles with footnotes isn't appropriate or fair to the other editors on the page.

That was by User:SlimVirgin but I'm sure we'd all agree with her. William M. Connolley 17:47, 24 November 2005 (UTC).

The story roles on :-) SEWs notes section should be turned into an alphabetized Reference section to go with the pre-existing and consensus direct inline links style of the article. I plan to do just that when the reverting dust settles. Vsmith 21:08, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

OK - I just did a revert AND included SEWs notes as a needed Reference section. The new ref section needs alphabetizing and some cleanup. Also need to include some missed non-web refs. Vsmith 23:34, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

SEWilco, disruptive reverts, and citations

Hi. I'd like to take a straw poll before suggesting on AN/I that SEWilco be blocked for disruption. Is there anyone here, other than SEWilco, who prefers his citation format? Please speak up if so. Thanks! Nandesuka 19:53, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I am about to start an RFC on SEW. But don't let me stop you from blocking him :-) William M. Connolley 22:18, 24 November 2005 (UTC).

What is being referred to:

• Nandesuka edit with URL-only inline links.
• SEWilco edit with Misplaced Pages:Footnotes linked citations.
• Differences between versions

The differences are due to using Misplaced Pages:Footnote templates to link between references and citations which describe sources. This version of the URL-only links contains replacements for many dead links(diff) which were detected during creation of the detailed citations; the dead links are interpreted by SEWilco as an indication of how infrequently URL-only links are followed and/or maintained.

Note that Misplaced Pages:Verifiability is an official policy which prefers more citation information over less, and making it clear which statement uses which reference. Misplaced Pages:Footnotes was influenced by Misplaced Pages:Cite sources, Misplaced Pages:Forum for Encyclopedic Standards, and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Fact and Reference Check.

While this is all very interesting, it does not surprise me that you prefer your own citation format. Once again, is there any editor of this article other than SEWilco that prefers the format he is continually reverting to? Nandesuka 23:23, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Direct inline links are preferred over the cumbersome notes system. I personally prefer a Harvard style link rather than a bare number as it makes it easier to correlate with a reference section. But let's reach consensus first. As noted above, I have included the references from SEWs notes, but they still need some re-working. Vsmith 23:52, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Gee, if you prefer Harvard style then perhaps you should have used it months ago. We've been discussing the numbered link appearance which has been in use. (SEWilco 06:12, 25 November 2005 (UTC))

SEWilco has been edit warring elsewhere for weeks in order to try to force editors to use footnotes. He has tried to delete or reduce information about Harvard referencing and embedded links from Misplaced Pages:Cite sources and from Misplaced Pages:Manual of style, and has made several misleading edits about how to format using those styles. The fact is that embedded links and Harvard referencing are both perfectly acceptable for Misplaced Pages, and in fact are much more popular than footnotes. WP:CITE has no preference between the three styles, except that the style used by the first major contributor should be adhered to if no agreement for change can be reached between the current editors on any given page. For more information, see WP:CITE#Embedded_HTML_links, WP:CITE#Harvard_style, and WP:CITE#How_to_Cite_Sources. SlimVirgin 06:34, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

SEWilco, do not impose your views on others. Slrubenstein | ] 14:19, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm supporting WP:Verifiability. Do you prefer the original version full of dead links? The "poll" purpose seems to have become misplaced. (SEWilco 01:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC))

Citation format poll

Q1: Are more detailed citations preferred over less detailed ones?

• Misplaced Pages policy Misplaced Pages:Verifiability prefers full citations.

Yes

1. SEWilco 01:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

No

Q2: Is it desirable to identify which statement uses which source?

• Misplaced Pages policy Misplaced Pages:Verifiability suggests connecting text to associated source citations.

Yes

1. SEWilco 01:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

No

Q3: Are detailed citations preferred over URL-only citations?

• Are more detailed citations preferred over URL-only citations?
  • Is "by 1979 global cooling was of waning interest. " preferred over "by 1979 global cooling was of waning interest ."?
  • Citation for first example above:
    1. "World Climate Conference 1979". Was an imminent Ice Age predicted in the '70's? No. November 17. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help)

Yes (first example preferred)

1. SEWilco 01:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

No (second example preferred)

Q4: Are references linked to citations preferred?

• Misplaced Pages:Footnotes has the current best practice for linking text a to relevant citation.
  • Is "by 1979 global cooling was of waning interest. " preferred over "by 1979 global cooling was of waning interest ."?
  • Citation for first example above:
    1. "World Climate Conference 1979". Was an imminent Ice Age predicted in the '70's? No. November 17. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help)
  • Citation for second example above:
    1. "World Climate Conference 1979". Was an imminent Ice Age predicted in the '70's? No. November 17. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help)

Yes (first example preferred)

1. SEWilco 01:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

No (second example preferred)

Comments

What is being referred to in this article:

• Nandesuka edit with URL-only inline links.
• SEWilco edit with Misplaced Pages:Footnotes linked citations.
• Differences between versions

The differences are due to using Misplaced Pages:Footnote templates to link between references and citations which describe sources. This version of the URL-only links contains replacements for many dead links(diff) which were detected during creation of the detailed citations; the dead links are interpreted by SEWilco as an indication of how infrequently URL-only links are followed and/or maintained. (SEWilco 01:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC))

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/SEWilco

I have filed Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/SEWilco. William M. Connolley 22:53, 24 November 2005 (UTC).

References

OK - as this page has stabilized a bit, I've found authors for each reference (except one unknown) and alphabetized the list. Please correct any errors (couple of shakey choices there). I would like to add abbrev. authors in place of the current numbered inline links (a la Harvard style) for ease of correlation. But won't without consensus here. Note, I don't mean a link to the ref as the notes thingy did - keep the inline link and create a means of finding it in the refs - as I've done at Kyoto Protocol (which still needs a clean-up). Comments ??? - Vsmith 02:18, 28 November 2005 (UTC)