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Criticism of the Anti-Defamation League

Criticism of the Anti-Defamation League (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

POV fork - attempt to remove criticism from Anti-Defamation League John Nagle (talk) 07:25, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Just for the record. I did not remove all criticism. I moved everything to the new page, put up a link, and I kept a criticism section in the main article with a one-sentence summary. The nom could certainly have expanded that to a paragraph, in keeping with what is done on the hundreds of Misplaced Pages articles on organizations that attract extensive criticism.Historicist (talk) 16:41, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

• Comment This is a rather strange article. It's an attempt to remove the "Criticism" section from Anti-Defamation League to a separate article. That's in a sense a POV fork. The editor who created this article also deleted all criticism from the main article. Weird. --John Nagle (talk) 07:27, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
• Merge it back where it came from. There was no prior discussion of this split. If it were done properly a summary should have been left, and to avoid being a POV fork it would need to reflect both the negative and positive views of the subject. But I don't think it's worth trying to fix - just put it back.   Will Beback  talk  07:42, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
• Keep There are hundreds of "Criticism of..." articles, which are started when there is a very large amount of criticism content that threatens to overwhelm the original article. This is indusputably the case here. Given that, it seems somewhat presumptuous of the nom to speculate on the "motivation" of the spinout, and it would be strange if we were to apply a different standard in this particular case. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 07:51, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
• Keep I created the article because, as User talk:Jalapenos do exist states, this is a routine Misplaced Pages approach when criticism overwhelms the page of an organization doing good work. And, just to be clear, there had been comments on the talk page about the disproportionate weight given in the article to criticism. For examples of other articles where the criticism is moved to a separate page, see Human Rights Watch, Noam Chomsky and many, many others.Historicist (talk) 16:08, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Hm. Both of the "Criticism" spinout articles mentioned have the effect of moving criticism of Israel to a spinout article. Is there a pattern here? --John Nagle (talk) 17:16, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Just for the record, the spinout articles on Human Rights Watch, and Noam Chomsky, do not move criticism of Israel to another page. They move criticism of critics of Israel (i.e., defense of Israel]] to other pages. What I fail to understand in Nagle's argument is why this page should be treated any differently form the hundreds of similar criticism pages.Historicist (talk) 17:43, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

That's a reasonable goal but lots of this stuff should be excluded anyway. Whether or not I agree with the stance of the ADL on gun rights, the inclusion of the criticism by the JPFO based solely on their own publications (and synthesis from ADL sources) is unnecessary. We don't gain anything by quoting criticism by Noam Chomsky and other opponents of the continued existence of the state of Israel at length. Nevard (talk) 17:23, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, there are about 84 "Criticism of ..." articles in Misplaced Pages.. Of those, 31 are redirects back to the main article. See, for example, Criticism of McDonald's, which started as a POV fork but was eventually merged back into the main article. Criticism of the Latter Day Saint movement is currently being considered for a merge back into the main article. The separate "criticism" articles that stick tend to be on big subjects, like Criticisms of communism. --John Nagle (talk) 18:50, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Nagle, the unbalancing of articles on organizations like the ADL, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch is a serious problem. These pages become extremely cluttered and unbalanced. setting up criticism pages is a good solution, and it is the one that is widely used already. You seem content to allow a very problematic (because unbalanced) page to remain so.Historicist (talk) 19:51, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

• Keep as per User talk:Jalapenos do exist. Keeping it in original article both deflects from institutional history of ADL, and limits criticsm based on proportionality. --Jayrav (talk) 16:23, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. —Historicist (talk) 16:18, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
• Keep. In line with articles like Controversies regarding Jehovah's Witnesses, it makes sense to take a large amount of significant criticism to its own article, because it really does seem to be an unwieldy subtopic. Not too happy with the suggestion that the creator exhibited bad faith through POV-forking. - CobaltBlueTony™ _talk 17:34, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

There is a very significant size difference between the two articles. In fact, that criticism article is longer then the ADL article with its criticism section.Matty (talk) 09:25, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

• Merge back to ADL main article. LotLE×talk 00:25, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
• Weak keep; otherwise, Merge it back to the main article. In principle, I support the creation of Criticism of... articles on the grounds that doing so allows the criticisms to be discussed in more detail without unbalancing the main article. However, in this particular case, the article in question is pretty awful. There is no structure to the article's sections. It is effectively just a laundry list of criticisms. The lead provides something of an overview but it is only a loose summary of the article's contents (probably because the article's contents are such a jumble). This article needs rewriting in order to be a valuable stand-alone article. Otherwise, merging it back to the main article would be doing us all a favor. --Richard (talk) 01:49, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
• Merge back to the main article. Unlike what most editors have stated here in reality the criticism section isn't long or large or overbearing or whatever else you want to call it. It's certainly not large enough to stand up as an article on its own. The article was not in need of a content fork. While the criticism section was a little large, it could have easily been trimmed back. It does not need a separate article. The split, which was not discussed, has changed the editorial bias of the main article by providing one point of view, while the other "sub-article" provides another. We should not be splitting articles into positive sides and negative sides and I see no consensus to say otherwise. Both WP:STRUCTURE and WP:POVFORK provide valuable insight on why this should not have occurred. If AfD results in a keep, we've lost the original contribution history which is in violation of WP:SPLIT and needs to be corrected immediately following the guidelines on that page. Matty (talk) 09:21, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
• Merge back to the main article, per above. (Just realized I hadn't actually voted.) --John Nagle (talk) 15:46, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Nagle, since you are the nom. Do we also merge Criticism of Noam Chomsky, Criticism of Human Rights Watch, Criticism of Amnesty International, Criticism of the BBC, Criticism of Osama bin Laden , Criticism of Coca-Cola and all the other criticism pages back onto the main pages? And, if not, can you please tell me what the difference is between this page and those? I ask because I can see no difference between the Anti-Defamation League page and the many other pages about organizations such as Criticism of Human Rights Watch, Criticism of Amnesty International, Criticism of the BBC, that have such pages except, of course, the the ADL is a Jewish defense organization.Historicist (talk) 16:13, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

See also Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Bill O'Reilly (political commentator) and Criticism of Bill O'Reilly (political commentator), where I'm also arguing that the "Criticism" article there should be merged back into the main article. --John Nagle (talk) 16:55, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Why Bill O'Reilly but not Noam Chomsky? Why the selectivity?Historicist (talk) 17:23, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

I see that. and I also see that you took that position only after being criticized here for your very selective choice of which Criticisms of page to make an issue of. And I also see that others on that page have responded much as have several veteran users on this page, by pointing out that these pages have their uses in instances where criticism overwhelms that page of a legitimate individual or organizations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Historicist (talk • contribs)

• Nagle, I find it troubling but interesting that you seem to want to take down only the separate criticism pages of organizations and individuals that defend Israel and Jews. By your standards, it is fine to separate out Criticism of Osama bin Laden in order that Osama bin Laden's page is protected from being overwhelmed by criticism, but it is not legitimate to separate out criticisms that threaten to overwhelm the page of the Anti-Defamation League. I know what it is like to take a stand and then feel that you have to defend it. It is an emotional thing. When criticized, we tend to act defensively, often without thinking an issue through. But please stop and think whether this position truly represents the ethical and moral standards by which you want to be known.Historicist (talk) 17:41, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

No personal attacks, please. --John Nagle (talk) 18:18, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

I quite agree that it is inappropriate to mischaracterize the actions of other editors, accusing them, for example, of removing material that they have not deleted,of acting in a "strange" manner when creating articles of routinely used and commonplace type, and of being "weird."Historicist (talk) 00:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

And I continue to be interested in an answer to the question of why you select only certain "Criticism" pages for deletion.Historicist (talk) 00:02, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

It's probably time to throw WP:OTHERSTUFF in. Just because something else exists on Misplaced Pages is not a valid argument on its own to keep something else. Matty (talk) 01:07, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

This is not a case of WP:OTHERSTUFF. That lots of other Criticism of... articles exist is not in itself an argument for keeping this one. The question, however, is, given that so many virtually identical articles exist, why are we arguing exclusively about this one. As I see it, either separating text so that criticism overwhelms the page is a good idea, or it is not. If it is not, if this AFD succeeds, then everyone who voted for it ought to also vote to remerge Criticism of Noam Chomsky, Criticism of Human Rights Watch, Criticism of Amnesty International, Criticism of the BBC, Criticism of Osama bin Laden and the rest back onto the main pages. Or explain the difference.Historicist (talk) 02:57, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

No, this is a pretty clear cut case of WP:OTHERSTUFF; "if we delete this we have to delete those". Each article is assessed on it's own merits, which is why this article is at AfD. Please start assuming good faith and stop bringing other articles into this deletion debate. Matty (talk) 04:23, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

• Merge back to ADL article. Matty made most of the points that matter, just add one more. There seems to be 2 motivations that have been raised to justify the splitting the topic, to either "hide" such criticism or to allow more criticism without concern for overloading the main article. I think both are incorrect, the criticism should be weighted in proportion to how it is treated in the sources and criticism should be in the article for anybody who wants to read an encyclopedia article on the ADL. If it was too much in the main article then chop it down a bit, but just separating it and having a single line in the main article on broad definitions of antisemitism does not seem the way to go. Nableezy (talk) 18:49, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
• Delete as POV fork, and merge it back into the original article. SlimVirgin 18:57, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

• Keep. I don't see any reasonable good reason why it should be removed or merged. --Boatduty177177 (talk) 19:52, 16 June 2009 (UTC) This template must be substituted.
• Keep In looking at the pre-fork article, about one-third was made up of criticism. This is exactly when to fork, when a section starts to overwhelm the rest of the article. If this does end up being merged back in, the section should be drastically pruned to provide some measure of content balance without WP:UNDUE issues. Alansohn (talk) 22:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
• Merge back to the main ADL article. There's no real reason to have this as a separate piece. CJCurrie (talk) 01:31, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

• This AfD nomination was incomplete (missing step 3). It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 10:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

• Keep 2 issues here, the page may be kept since it cannot be merged fully into main article in its current state due to length issues. However a good summary should be added into the main article with main aspects. Also note user tried to completely remove criticism before so I reverted , there are some POV or inexperienced user issues, yet a separate article is needed, completely merging 2 articles will result an overly long article. For a guide of how properly separate articles, try reading Amnesty International#Criticism and Criticism of Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch#Criticisms and Criticism of Human Rights Watch or Criticism of the BBC and BBC#Criticism_and_controversies Kasaalan (talk) 12:09, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

By the way I made some improvements in the Criticism of the Anti-Defamation League since it was just copy paste its titles and contents were not properly set. I won't edit Anti-Defamation League#Criticism until this debate will result. Kasaalan (talk) 14:04, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I can see where you are coming from but put simply all the ADL needed was the criticism section trimmed, there really isn't enough information to split the pages yet. If the main article was in excess of 100-200kb I could see why a separate section would work alone but in its current state there doesn't seem to be a need to start splitting the ADL article into little sub-article stubs. Matty (talk) 04:30, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

How much the article's length, how do we check page lengths. Kasaalan (talk) 06:54, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

We assess each case individually, which is what we are doing now. Matty (talk) 07:45, 18 June 2009 (UTC)r

I mean how you measure page length, there was a way but I cannot find it right now. Also can you tell me the length of the Criticism of the Anti-Defamation League page. Kasaalan (talk) 07:58, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

• Merge back This is clearly an attempt to remove criticism from the main article. Likeminas (talk) 18:40, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

It is true user tried to remove criticism, that is why I reversed him. However, leaving a summary style criticism in the main article, and developing criticism as a separate subpage is better, just as other examples I provided. As a general approach separate criticism articles are better. Kasaalan (talk) 21:27, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I see no consensus to say that separate articles are better. The criticism articles already in existence are significantly longer then the ADL article has. Matty (talk) 04:30, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

The community-wide consensus is that shorter articles are better; a healthy summary (with a link to this article) will keep the main article appropriately balanced and resemble other similar articles. - CobaltBlueTony™ _talk 10:47, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

• Merge and redirect all WP:NPOV material to the main Anti-Defamation League article, otherwise this is a blatant violation of Misplaced Pages:Content forking and WP:NOTOPINION. IZAK (talk) 06:42, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
• Comment I find it hard to vote either way. The negative coverage in the main article has been gutted and needs reinstatement. However, criticism sections are problematic in themselves, it being better to merge information into a more flowing discussion rather than just have a section for the bad bits. Further the coverage of criticism, is in any case not broad enough. The ADL has been attacked from the right, and not just by anti-Semites. Kahanists and right-wing Zionists, such as our friends in the JIDF, have attacked the ADL's support of land for peace . No doubt there are better sources availabel than this.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:30, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

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