Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:53, 20 June 2009

This page is for centralised discussion of the page titles of the six principal pages relating to Macedonia.

The following are currently disputed

• The country article (currently Macedonia, previously at Republic of Macedonia)
• The disambiguation page (currently Macedonia (disambiguation), previously at plain Macedonia)

Template:Resolved issues

Proposal A: "Macedonia" solution

• Macedonia is the article about the country
• Macedonia (disambiguation) is the disambiguation page

Rationale

• The country is the primary topic of the term "Macedonia" in current common usage in English, in the sense of the WP:DAB guideline, as established through investigation of English-language corpora outside Misplaced Pages.
• The country article has far more readers than any other Macedonia article (5 times more than Macedonia (ancient kingdom), 10 times more than Macedonia (Greece), 20 times more than Macedonia (region), and 3 times more than all the other related pages together)
• The intention of the "primary topic" rule of WP:DAB is not to express value judgments about the historical significance of an entity and its name, but purely a pragmatic intention of making things more efficient for the majority of readers. Therefore, reader expectations based on present-day discourse should be the guiding criterion. WP:DAB defines no concrete cutoff point of how much more common a usage needs to be to qualify as primary, but the country leads so strongly in both page views and web/corpus counts it would qualify under any reasonable criterion.
• This solution is patterned on Misplaced Pages's existing treatment of other countries that share their name with a wider or neighbouring geographical region of the same name, notably Luxembourg (disambiguation), Azerbaijan (disambiguation) and Mongolia (disambiguation) and has the advantage of consistency with existing nomenclature on Misplaced Pages.
• Published encyclopedias, dictionaries and other reference works predominately list the country as the primary meaning of the term "Macedonia". The majority of readers will expect the country article to be at that name.

Envisaged impact on readers

• This proposal leads fewer people through the disambiguation page. The majority of readers will immediately reach the article they were looking for. A minority will be one click away from their intended target article, and a yet smaller minority have to navigate back to the disambiguation page through the hat note (currently fewer than 10% of those who used the dab page earlier.)
• Page view statistics show that the move of the disambiguation page from Macedonia to Macedonia (disambiguation) has not adversely affected readership of the other Macedonia articles.

Compliance with Misplaced Pages policy

• Compliant with WP:NPOV's requirement to use "the common English language name as found in verifiable reliable sources".
• Compliant with WP:NCON's requirement to use the English version of the country's self-identifying name.
• Compliant with WP:DAB's requirement to use the term indicated as the primary topic for the title of the article on that topic.

Why is this better than the previous status?

• Improved navigation - eliminates an unnecessary detour through a disambiguation page for the great majority of people who look for "Macedonia".
• Consistent with nomenclature elsewhere on Misplaced Pages (country as primary topic, further meanings at disambiguation page).
• Consistent with external nomenclature, where the term "Macedonia" is overwhelmingly employed in common usage to refer to the country, and therefore the best match with readers' expectations about the meaning of the term.

Arguments against proposal A

• The country may not be the "primary topic" in all domains of English usage, especially not in older academic discourse.
• The country's status as one meaning of Macedonia and possibly a primary topic is only a very recent historical phenomenon.
• Choosing the country as the main topic may be perceived by some as choosing a side in the political naming dispute, in favour of the stance dominant in most English-speaking nations.

Proposal B: "Republic of Macedonia" solution

• Republic of Macedonia is the article about the country.
• Macedonia is the disambiguation page

Rationale

• The country is not clearly the "primary topic" for plain "Macedonia", because in academic discourse, as documented in counts of Google Books and similar sources, referents other than the modern country (especially the ancient kingdom) have a comparably high prominence. Therefore the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC pattern should not be applied.
• If readers are taken straight to the country page from a wiki search on "Macedonia", some readers might not realise they are not on the most pertinent page, when the information they are really looking for might be more appropriately found at Macedonia (region) or Macedonia (ancient kingdom).
• Regarding the country article's title the convention is similar to Misplaced Pages's current treatment of: Republic of Ireland (rather than Ireland), Federated States of Micronesia (common English name Micronesia), Nagorno-Karabakh Republic (rather than Nagorno-Karabakh). Other more loosely related (but equally controversial) examples exist
• "Republic of Macedonia" is an acceptable disambiguator because it is also the self-identifying official (constitution) name.

Envisaged impact on readers

• A return to previous (status quo ante) readership. Readers using the wiki-search function on "Macedonia" will be led through the disambiguation page.
• Readership of the disambiguation page will be artificially inflated by its placement at the term used by most sources to refer to the country, as was the case before April 2009. However all readers would very quickly continue towards the article they want
• The great majority of readers will need to take an extra step to reach the article with the greatest level of usage, i.e. the country article.

Compliance with Misplaced Pages policy

• Compliant with WP:DAB (use simple title for disambiguation page) and WP:PRECISION (prefer precisely specified names when ambiguity exists) under the premise that there is no clear "primary topic".
• Compliant with WP:NCON's criterion favouring the English version of the country's self-identifying (constitutional) name .
• Compliant with WP:DAB suggestion that "If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic"
• Compliant with suggestion of WP:Naming conventions (common names)#Do not overdo it that "if there is no agreement over whether a page title is "overdoing it", apply the guidelines at WP:PRECISION"

Why is this better than the status quo?

The title of the country article would be unambiguous. In no circumstance would any reader find himself directed to an article he didn't seek for. This version would be the least likely to raise objections as it was generally accepted prior to April 2009 (it was the previous status). No one is likely to think of this solution as representing any POV on any matter.

Arguments against Proposal B

• Less efficient than A for the majority of readers using the wiki search function.
• Minor practical issue: every proposal except A (and E) will require substantial cleanup of a large number of incoming wikilinks pointing to plain Macedonia and meaning the country; that should be changed to the appropriate target rather than a disambiguation page
• The use of full formal names is deprecated by Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (common names), as they "require people to know that name, and to type more." Full formal names are generally only used on Misplaced Pages to distinguish sovereign states which share a geographical name with another state (e.g. the two Chinas, the two Congos or the (formerly) two Germanies). There is no other contemporary country called Macedonia.
• Reference works and cartographic works make very little use of "Republic of Macedonia". The formal name appears to have little common usage, making it likely that the term will be unfamiliar to the non-expert reader.

Proposal C: "Macedonia (country)" solution

• Macedonia (country) is the article about the country.
• Macedonia is the disambiguation page

Rationale

• Same rationale for putting the disambiguation page under the simple title as for
• This solution reflects the practice that the most common naming to be used in article text elsewhere will be plain "Macedonia" and that the rest ("country") is just a disambiguation addition; the common way of linking to it will be through the pipe trick "]".
• This solution may be more stable than in the hypothetical case that a political solution in the real world is reached, involving a change in the country's official name. In that case, "Republic of Macedonia" as the official name may become factually incorrect, while plain "Macedonia" may well continue to remain in use as the most common informal appellation at least for some time, until the new naming takes hold in practice.
• This solution is comparable to Georgia (country) with Georgia as a disambiguation page (though note that Georgia is the only country in the world for which Misplaced Pages uses a "(country)" disambiguator, although not the only country with an ambiguous name).

Envisaged impact on readers

• same as B

Compliance with Misplaced Pages policy

• some points shared with B.
• Compliant with WP:NPOV's requirement to use "the common English language name as found in verifiable reliable sources".
• Compliant with WP:NCON's requirement to use the English version of the country's self-identifying name.
• Compliant with WP:DAB's requirements that when there is no primary topic "the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no '(disambiguation)'".
• Compliant with WP:DAB suggestion that "If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic"

Why is this better than the status quo?"

• same as B and additionally
• focus of editors is directed to more productive issues than arguing about what is the primary topic for a topic that has such a complex state that it needs a Macedonia (terminology) article similar to the American (word) page.

Proposal D: "Region" solution

• Macedonia to be the article about the wider geographical region, currently Macedonia (region)
• Macedonia (country) or Republic of Macedonia to be the article about the country
• Macedonia (disambiguation) to be the disambiguation page

This was the status quo before 23 September 2005.

Rationale

• This has been proposed mainly because of its perceived analogy to two other problematic naming cases: Ireland and China. In each of them, the simple page title currently leads to a geographical/historical survey article (Ireland = Ireland (island); China = China (historical region), Taiwan = Taiwan (island)), while the modern country of the same name is at a longer disambiguated title. The same solution is used for the less disputed Micronesia case.
• The geographical meaning of Macedonia, while not "primary" in the sense of quantity of page views, may be regarded as naturally "primary" in a logical sense, insofar as it is the historically prior meaning to both the country and the Greek province, and encompasses them both.
• Reflecting the practice of the Library of Congress that uses the label "Macedonia", alone, to cover the region (from antiquity to 1912) in its taxonomy preferences.

Compliance with Misplaced Pages policy

• Not compliant with WP:DAB

Envisaged impact on readers

• Readers who want to read about the country (the most numerous group) will arrive at the region of the same name, of which the country is part. It is possible that some of the information they seek is in the Region article, the rest is one click forward.
• Same for readers looking for the other meanings.
• Readers are unlikely to perceive this as having reached the wrong article.

Why is this better than the status quo?

• No, or almost no users (as opposed to editors) would perceive that they had landed at the "wrong page." With proper hat notes, they could all be at the right place, or just one click away.
• No readers will go to the DAB page unless they direct themselves there.

Arguments against Proposal D

• "Macedonia region" is the least common (fourth place) meaning of "Macedonia", it comes after Republic of Macedonia, Macedonia (Greece) and Ancient Macedonia.
• Landing people on an article about the region is actually the least likely to give them the info they are looking for (because the main usage of "Macedonia" and because of observed page visiting patterns).
• "Macedonia" in its modern geographical sense is not an inherently salient and natural geographic unit (like the islands Ireland and Taiwan) but a highly arbitrary product of historical coincidences. As such, it is a relevant unit of geographical categorization only for a very short historical time period, roughly from the mid-19th to the mid-20th centuries.
• For a reader to navigate onwards to their real target page through a large article is less efficient than navigating onwards through a disambiguation page.

Proposal E: Redirect solution

• Macedonia redirects to the article about the country
• This proposal is flexible about the title of the article about the country other than it is not the one-word "Macedonia"
• Macedonia (disambiguation) to be the disambiguation page

This would go along with a Macedonia redirects here... dab link

Rationale

• This proposal does not claim a main topic for the article of the country while facilitating easy pipe-linking to the country.
• The increased readership of the country page is facilitated with the redirect (no going through a disambiguation page) but that is not a determining factor of the title of the article.
• This proposal is flexible about the title of the article about the country. The above suggests that instead of Republic of Macedonia other descriptive ("NPOV") disambiguated titles can also be used e.g. Macedonia (state) or Macedonia (Republic) (Library of Congress preference) or "Macedonia (former Yugoslav republic)" or "Macedonia (Western Balkans)"
• Redirects solutions like this are sometimes used. e.g. Central Lithuania->Republic of Central Lithuania, Galion->Galion, Ohio, Baranja->Baranya (region) (see Baranya (disambiguation)). Erie -> Erie, Pennsylvania (in addition Erie is a common misspelling of Eire). Kawau->Kawau Island. Some other naming disputes: Malvinas->Falkland Islands, Formosa->Taiwan,(island), Persia->Iran, related to Iran naming dispute. Sometimes a double name is used but that technique is deprecated: Mount Cook->Aoraki/Mount Cook (related to New Zealand place names#Naming_disputes). Regarding non geographic names: e.g. Barack and Obama redirect. Gretzky->Wayne Gretzky

Envisaged impact on readers

• absolutely none since it simulates current status quo

Compliance with Misplaced Pages policy

• see B and C about compliance of names for the country page other than "Macedonia" (with no dismabiguator)
• does not contradict WP:DAB in that says that "In some cases, the primary topic may be a redirect to a different article"

Why is this better than the status quo?

• this proposal simulates the status quo. It is better in the part of using an unambiguous title (as per arguments against proposal A and the rationale of Proposals B and C)

Arguments against Proposal E

• Not really substantially different from Proposal A in practice: the only difference is that readers won't be seeing the plain name "Macedonia" at the top of the country page but something else instead. But there is no reason to avoid just that, because it is undeniable that "Macedonia" is one common name of the country and hence legitimate in that place in principle. The real problems, namely the issue of prioritising in disambiguation, is not addressed.

Proposal F: Central outline solution

• The content of the article at Macedonia will serve as a main backbone (a kind of introduction to Macedonia). Since Macedonia region is variable with history, this article should contain at least an outline (brief) description of the historical phases all the way to the present day region of Macedonia. For example, it starts with ancient Macedonia, through to Roman , Byzantine etc. times to the present time (basically these phases correspond to a historical map). Each historical section is covered briefly including hat links to the "main articles". In the section of the present day Macedonia region there would be coverage of all contemporary subregions: (a) the country (b) the region of Greece (c) the Bulgarian province; all with the hat links to their respective main articles.

This could be achieved by modifying the article Macedonia (terminology) (easiest) or the article Macedonia (region) (in which case is a variation of proposal D)

Rationale

• This proposal may be the simplest yet comprehensive general approach (if all nationalist desires and agendas are removed from the scope of Macedonia).
• In the case of the proposed modification of the terminology article, then Macedonia could also be a redirect to the Macedonia (terminology) article similar to proposal E. That is because terminology is not the main topic. In the other case, that of modifying the region article, the arguments about apply.

Envisaged impact on readers

• Unknown but similar to Proposal B in that it will include section hat links to all the other main articles

Compliance with Misplaced Pages policy

• Novel concentrative approach, an interpretation of WP:NPOV

Why is this better than the status quo?

• By the rationale of this proposal it would facilitate lay readers by offering a introduction up front while still giving the possibility of navigating away to any one of the more specific contexts with one click.

Arguments against Proposal F

• Basically same as against Proposal D (if modifying the region page). In addition, the subjects are too disjunct to be contained in one article, people who search for Republic of Macedonia might not be interested in Ancient Macedonia issues and the other way round.

Proposal G: the UN solution

• Macedonia is the disambiguation page.
• former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is the article about the country.
• Republic of Macedonia redirects to former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

Rationale

• Same rationale for putting the disambiguation page under the simple title as for
• "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is an acceptable disambiguator because it is the most commonly used name, as evidenced by international organizations and google search ().

Envisaged impact on readers

• Same impact as .

Compliance with Misplaced Pages policy

• Compliant with WP:DAB (use simple title for disambiguation page) and WP:PRECISION (prefer precisely specified names when ambiguity exists) under the premise that there is no clear "primary topic".
• Compliant with WP:DAB suggestion that "If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic"
• Compliant with WP:NC (WP:NCCN to be more precise), by using the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things.
• Compliant with WP:NCON by using the most common English-language equivalent (since the name is disputed by two jurisdictions).

Why is this better than the status quo?

The title of the country article would be unambiguous. In no circumstance would any reader find himself directed to an article they didn't seek for. This version would be best adhering to wikipedia policies of common use, while at the same time still using the provisional reference that the country itself agreed to use (under the 1995 interim accord) as official appellation in it's relations with the UN and most other international organizations.

Arguments against Proposal G

• "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is neither the self-identifying term nor the term most commonly used in English, and therefore against both sets of criteria outlined in WP:NCON.
• Some people, particularly those with ties of some sort to the country, might object to the use of the name because of its implied link to the Former Yugoslavia.
• Not compliant with WP:Naming conventions (common names)#Do not overdo it, that says "we need to temper common usage when the commonly used term is unreasonably misleading or commonly regarded as offensive to one or more groups of people" and suggests in that case to use a "well-accepted alternative".

Notes

1. Loring M. Danforth, The Macedonian Conflict p.4 preview
2. See current dispute at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration and Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Ireland article names
3. Of course, whichever of or is chosen, the two linking techniques "]" and "]" don't technically exclude each other, since both page titles will exist as redirects.